Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

By that token when Johnson speaks he speaks for the UK, which Scotland is a part of no matter how much some may wish it wasn't.

Correct. Some of us wish to change this though.


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[CloudSquall]

"they didn't stand for independence"

Surely unionists don't actually believe there are voters out there that don't have a clue that the SNP stands for independence?

[lapsedhibee]

By that token when Johnson speaks he speaks for the UK, which Scotland is a part of no matter how much some may wish it wasn't.
Precisely because Johnson speaks for the UK, which Scotland is a part of, that increasing numbers in Scotland wish it wasn't.

[goosano]

Independence if it comes will be a seismic event for the country with a huge period of uncertainty. For this reason I feel that having another referendum decided on a simple majority is wrong. I personally feel that you have to have a significant majority. Why?

Independence will almost certainly lead to a significant fall in living standards at least in the medium term. Scotland if it wants to be part of the EU will need to bring the deficit down from 7% to under 3% over time. To be fair it is declining, coming down from 8.1% the previous year. A hard border with England seems very likely. There is the difficult question of what currency we would have. There will be a large cost in setting up all of the institutions that we need. Businesses will be reluctant to invest until there is certainty here.

The SNP have convincingly won elections but opinion polls have consistently shown that a minority of the population want independence. Brexit has been a hugely divisive issue in this country and I think these divisions will get worse particularly if we feel to reach a deal with the EU. The issue of independence is similar in many ways with very strong feelings on both sides. For all of these reasons I feel it is important to have a significant majority in favour to go ahead with independence.

[grunt]

Independence if it comes will be a seismic event for the country with a huge period of uncertainty. For this reason I feel that having another referendum decided on a simple majority is wrong. I personally feel that you have to have a significant majority. In normal times I'd agree with you completely. But these are not normal times. You can't allow the monumentally stupid decision to leave the EU to be made on a simple majority and then not apply the same criteria to the eminently sensible decision to decide on Scottish independence.

The original mistake was allowing the simple majority for the criminal EU referendum; to move the goalposts for #indyref2 would be to compound that error.

[Moulin Yarns]

Independence if it comes will be a seismic event for the country with a huge period of uncertainty. For this reason I feel that having another referendum decided on a simple majority is wrong. I personally feel that you have to have a significant majority. Why?

Independence will almost certainly lead to a significant fall in living standards at least in the medium term. Scotland if it wants to be part of the EU will need to bring the deficit down from 7% to under 3% over time. To be fair it is declining, coming down from 8.1% the previous year. A hard border with England seems very likely. There is the difficult question of what currency we would have. There will be a large cost in setting up all of the institutions that we need. Businesses will be reluctant to invest until there is certainty here.

The SNP have convincingly won elections but opinion polls have consistently shown that a minority of the population want independence. Brexit has been a hugely divisive issue in this country and I think these divisions will get worse particularly if we feel to reach a deal with the EU. The issue of independence is similar in many ways with very strong feelings on both sides. For all of these reasons I feel it is important to have a significant majority in favour to go ahead with independence.

Sometimes it can be a good thing for there not being a majority government at Holyrood, as it was designed that way.

An example of where opposition parties have defeated the SNP: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50885438

[grunt]

Sometimes it can be a good thing for there not being a majority government at Holyrood, as it was designed that way.It often appears that many media commentators don't seem to appreciate this.

[allmodcons]

A balanced response to an article you haven't read :wink:

Some 'writers' do not deserve the time of day. He's a very sad, bitter individual is Brian Wilson.

You still have answered my question as to how you think he knows he's speaking for the majority.

[CloudSquall]

Where in the EU rules does it say the deficit has to be under 3% for EU membership?

Serious question as I've looked and can't find it.

[goosano]

Where in the EU rules does it say the deficit has to be under 3% for EU membership?

Serious question as I've looked and can't find it.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stability-growth-pact.asp

The 3% deficit limit is also a requirement within the convergence criteria for any new members joining the EU's monetary union and for adopting the euro as currency, as agreed by the member states in Maastricht in 1991.

It is a significant amount. The 2008 crisis lnocked almost 5% off GDP if I remember rightly

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stability-growth-pact.asp

The 3% deficit limit is also a requirement within the convergence criteria for any new members joining the EU's monetary union and for adopting the euro as currency, as agreed by the member states in Maastricht in 1991.

It is a significant amount. The 2008 crisis lnocked almost 5% off GDP if I remember rightly

The SGP has never been enforced.

Scotland as a new accession state would require to sign up to Maastricht and thus technically be committed to join the Eurozone and in turn subject to the 3% target, but that's never been enforced either.

Having said all that, an Indy Scotland would have to have sustainable public finances and a 3% deficit is a reasonable medium term target. The EU would no doubt expect us to have a plan to get there.

[Ozyhibby]

The SGP has never been enforced.

Scotland as a new accession state would require to sign up to Maastricht and thus technically be committed to join the Eurozone and in turn subject to the 3% target, but that's never been enforced either.

Having said all that, an Indy Scotland would have to have sustainable public finances and a 3% deficit is a reasonable medium term target. The EU would no doubt expect us to have a plan to get there.

What’s really criminal is that there is not a plan to get us there now? A cynic might think that the Unionists wanted us to keep a high deficit to make Scots afraid of independence? I’m probably just paranoid because of the glee with which the GERS figures are met with in the unionist community.


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[goosano]

The SGP has never been enforced.

Scotland as a new accession state would require to sign up to Maastricht and thus technically be committed to join the Eurozone and in turn subject to the 3% target, but that's never been enforced either.

Having said all that, an Indy Scotland would have to have sustainable public finances and a 3% deficit is a reasonable medium term target. The EU would no doubt expect us to have a plan to get there.


It beggars belief to think we can continue with the same level of expendure if we want to join the EU. It is all about a country living within its means. That is the bottom line. The Uk runs at 1.1% above GDP Scotland 7%.
Look at the table below and you'll see almost all countries are near or within the 3%, even Greece and Italy

I'm not necessarily against independence but it will mean a real economic haircut to get there. That is the reality


https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=teina200

[Callum_62]

It beggars belief to think we can continue with the same level of expendure if we want to join the EU. It is all about a country living within its means. That is the bottom line. The Uk runs at 1.1% above GDP Scotland 7%.
Look at the table below and you'll see almost all countries are near or within the 3%, even Greece and Italy

I'm not necessarily against independence but it will mean a real economic haircut to get there. That is the reality


https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=teina200Maybe we just won't need to use the fancy stylist or hair products?

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[Just Alf]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stability-growth-pact.asp

The 3% deficit limit is also a requirement within the convergence criteria for any new members joining the EU's monetary union and for adopting the euro as currency, as agreed by the member states in Maastricht in 1991.

It is a significant amount. The 2008 crisis lnocked almost 5% off GDP if I remember rightlyTo be fair this is specifically about the monetary union element, this isn't directly a requirement to join the EU, it comes into force when any country in the EU wants to physically join the Euro monetary union.

The whys, wherefore's and best practice of being near to that 3% is a whole other argument mind.



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[Ozyhibby]

It beggars belief to think we can continue with the same level of expendure if we want to join the EU. It is all about a country living within its means. That is the bottom line. The Uk runs at 1.1% above GDP Scotland 7%.
Look at the table below and you'll see almost all countries are near or within the 3%, even Greece and Italy

I'm not necessarily against independence but it will mean a real economic haircut to get there. That is the reality


https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=teina200

Not sure why we diverged so much from the rest of the UK?
Seemed to happen just after first indyref was announced?


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[JeMeSouviens]

Not sure why we diverged so much from the rest of the UK?
Seemed to happen just after first indyref was announced?


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Mostly the big fall in the oil price.

[Ozyhibby]

It beggars belief to think we can continue with the same level of expendure if we want to join the EU. It is all about a country living within its means. That is the bottom line. The Uk runs at 1.1% above GDP Scotland 7%.
Look at the table below and you'll see almost all countries are near or within the 3%, even Greece and Italy

I'm not necessarily against independence but it will mean a real economic haircut to get there. That is the reality


https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=teina200

Sounds like Scotland within the UK is being run terribly with that level of deficit? Not sure why that is an argument for staying in the UK? Does the UK govt have a plan to fix this or do we just carry on?


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[G B Young]

Some 'writers' do not deserve the time of day. He's a very sad, bitter individual is Brian Wilson.

You still have answered my question as to how you think he knows he's speaking for the majority.

He doesn't claim to be speaking for the majority, just points out that based on those members of the Scottish electorate who voted in the general election comfortably more than half did not vote SNP.

I don't claim to know a lot about Brian Wilson so I'm happy to defer to your greater awareness of his character, but in this particular article I didn't detect any obvious bitterness. Just some sentiments which rang true for me and, I imagine, most of those who see no need for another independence referendum.

[goosano]

Sounds like Scotland within the UK is being run terribly with that level of deficit? Not sure why that is an argument for staying in the UK? Does the UK govt have a plan to fix this or do we just carry on?


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It has more to do with the Barnett formula. Scotland is allocated more funds because of high levels of deprivation. So it is not poor management by the Scottish government. But the bottom line is if we go independent public spending will have to be cut by about £1500 per person.

Oil these days is not such a big factor. About 0.7% of GDP.

[Moulin Yarns]

It has more to do with the Barnett formula. Scotland is allocated more funds because of high levels of deprivation. So it is not poor management by the Scottish government. But the bottom line is if we go independent public spending will have to be cut by about £1500 per person.

Oil these days is not such a big factor. About 0.7% of GDP.

Everything you said is only correct if you believe the Westminster propaganda.

[HappyAsHellas]

I would take any figures the EU are bandying about concerning SGP with a rather large pinch of salt. These are after all the same people who cooked the books to let Greece join when everyone knew it was a basket case. Did I say cook the books? Oh sorry about that I was wrong, but Mr Draghi did own up to massaging the figures. Different thing altogether apparently.

[Ozyhibby]

It has more to do with the Barnett formula. Scotland is allocated more funds because of high levels of deprivation. So it is not poor management by the Scottish government. But the bottom line is if we go independent public spending will have to be cut by about £1500 per person.

Oil these days is not such a big factor. About 0.7% of GDP.

Higher levels of deprivation? Have you been to England?


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[goosano]

Everything you said is only correct if you believe the Westminster propaganda.

Nothing to do with propoganda, rather facts It is the amount of spending that will need to be reduced per capita to reduce a GDP deficit of 7% to 3%.

[Ozyhibby]

Nothing to do with propoganda, rather facts It is the amount of spending that will need to be reduced per capita to reduce a GDP deficit of 7% to 3%.

Or you could increase GDP?


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[goosano]

Higher levels of deprivation? Have you been to England?


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8 of the 10 most deprived areas in the UK are in Glasgow. Rising inequality in the UK ovef the last 10 years has led to terrible levels of poverty

[goosano]

Or you could increase GDP?


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Yes of course, and that is the argument that Nationalists will put forward. Control of own destiny shapes economic future.

[Ozyhibby]

8 of the 10 most deprived areas in the UK are in Glasgow. Rising inequality in the UK ovef the last 10 years has led to terrible levels of poverty

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191223/3f052ab6e243f93053f78e41e5f62177.jpg



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[goosano]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191223/3f052ab6e243f93053f78e41e5f62177.jpg



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I am talking about deprivation not wealth, with the attendant effect on life expectancy etc that is truly shocking in the west

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/glasgow-strathclyde/research-finds-ten-most-deprived-areas-in-britain-are-in-glasgow-1-4766278

[Frankhfc]

Yes of course, and that is the argument that Nationalists will put forward. Control of own destiny shapes economic future.

Isn't it the case that RUK is our biggest trading partner? Surely putting up trade barriers allied with the real possibility of a hard border enacted 10 miles or so north of Carlisle would almost certainly see our GDP decrease whereby imposing even greater cuts upon the Scottish fiscal purse. Growing the economy would be possible in the longer term but only after seismic financial shocks had occurred in the short to medium term in my opinion.

[Ozyhibby]

Isn't it the case that RUK is our biggest trading partner? Surely putting up trade barriers allied with the real possibility of a hard border enacted 10 miles or so north of Carlisle would almost certainly see our GDP decrease whereby imposing even greater cuts upon the Scottish fiscal purse. Growing the economy would be possible in the longer term but only after seismic financial shocks had occurred in the short to medium term in my opinion.

Doesn’t seem to be holding back other small nations in Europe who all have much bigger GDP’s than ours?


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[USAHibby]

It beggars belief to think we can continue with the same level of expendure if we want to join the EU. It is all about a country living within its means. That is the bottom line. The Uk runs at 1.1% above GDP Scotland 7%. Look at the table below and you'll see almost all countries are near or within the 3%, even Greece and Italy I'm not necessarily against independence but it will mean a real economic haircut to get there. That is the reality https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=teina200 Scotland doesn't run at 7% above. This is fabricated by Westminster through the amount that they borrow and spend on reserved matters. But this includes spending in England, Wales and Northern Ireland that the UK Government deems a benefit to Scotlands economy. (Even if it isn't a benefit at all). Much of the £12.6bn the UK Government borrowed last year on Scotlands behalf, wasn't spent for the benefit of Scotland. That's where the 7% comes from, that's where the "£1500 more per head" soundbite comes from. It's an utter nonsense designed to make people in Scotland fearful of taking full fiscal control over it's own economy.

[CloudSquall]

Richard Murphy has written up some articles on GERS, below is the most up to date one,

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/23/the-failing-english-elite-cant-get-its-head-around-scottish-independence-let-alone-the-economics-that-supports-it/


Given the reason behind why GERs was set up along with it's guess work I really think the SNP were on a hiding to nothing when they decided to endorse it.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is from the European commission office in Edinburgh.

So the end is nigh and it won’t be long before the EU flag is taken down for the last time and the door of the EC Representation in Scotland will finally close, marking an end to the presence of the European Commission in Scotland that has stretched over 44 years. 1/6 https://t.co/8ajzrs5pLr

Throughout our small Representation in Scotland has played its part in providing a bridge between the people of Scotland and the institutions of the EU. 2/6

For all of us based over the years in Scotland, it has been an enormous privilege to help forge and boost these links not only with the EU institutions but in helping to develop ties and relationships right across the 27 EU Member States too. 3/6

Scotland has not only benefitted from EU membership over these last 44 years but it has actually been Scottish men and women who have played an incredible role in shaping the European Union, we know today. 4/6

By anyone’s estimation a significant part played by what is after all a small country on the European stage. For the time being Scotland’s EU journey is coming to an end. For the future, who knows? 5/6

On behalf of the European Commission Representation in Scotland and from the three of us that are now left, may we take this opportunity to wish you, your families and friends all the very best for Christmas and for 2020 and what lies beyond. 6/6


Keep a light on for Scotland, Europe, we'll be back.

[Ozyhibby]

This is from the European commission office in Edinburgh.

So the end is nigh and it won’t be long before the EU flag is taken down for the last time and the door of the EC Representation in Scotland will finally close, marking an end to the presence of the European Commission in Scotland that has stretched over 44 years. 1/6 https://t.co/8ajzrs5pLr

Throughout our small Representation in Scotland has played its part in providing a bridge between the people of Scotland and the institutions of the EU. 2/6

For all of us based over the years in Scotland, it has been an enormous privilege to help forge and boost these links not only with the EU institutions but in helping to develop ties and relationships right across the 27 EU Member States too. 3/6

Scotland has not only benefitted from EU membership over these last 44 years but it has actually been Scottish men and women who have played an incredible role in shaping the European Union, we know today. 4/6

By anyone’s estimation a significant part played by what is after all a small country on the European stage. For the time being Scotland’s EU journey is coming to an end. For the future, who knows? 5/6

On behalf of the European Commission Representation in Scotland and from the three of us that are now left, may we take this opportunity to wish you, your families and friends all the very best for Christmas and for 2020 and what lies beyond. 6/6


Keep a light on for Scotland, Europe, we'll be back.

Doesn’t sound at all like it would be hard to rejoin as an independent country.[emoji106]


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[Bristolhibby]

Doesn’t sound at all like it would be hard to rejoin as an independent country.[emoji106]


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It won’t. Despite the scare mongering. The EU is expansionist by nature, Scotland would be a feather in the cap for the EU. (Also a big “up yours” to the Rump of the U.K.).

J

[allmodcons]

Richard Murphy has written up some articles on GERS, below is the most up to date one,

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/23/the-failing-english-elite-cant-get-its-head-around-scottish-independence-let-alone-the-economics-that-supports-it/


Given the reason behind why GERs was set up along with it's guess work I really think the SNP were on a hiding to nothing when they decided to endorse it.

I still cannot believe that the SNP were stupid enough to endorse GERS. It's a stick to beat Scotland with.

PS - The 7% notional deficit has basically been taken as gospel by the press and anybody who opposes Independence.

[Moulin Yarns]

'It’s guff that Scottish education is terrible'
Scottish education directors publish dossier in bid to challenge the narrative of failure in Scottish education: https://t.co/S2JbSsWEHJ


https://t.co/u23VrJASEV

[marinello59]

'It’s guff that Scottish education is terrible'
Scottish education directors publish dossier in bid to challenge the narrative of failure in Scottish education: https://t.co/S2JbSsWEHJ


https://t.co/u23VrJASEV

So they’ve investigated themselves to prove that the criticism of the Education system they are running is unfair. I’m shocked.

[Moulin Yarns]

So they’ve investigated themselves to prove that the criticism of the Education system they are running is unfair. I’m shocked.

We are all doing our self assessment at this time of year. 😉

[marinello59]

We are all doing our self assessment at this time of year. 😉

What does it have to do with the case for Independence though?

[Moulin Yarns]

What does it have to do with the case for Independence though?

Maybe it should be on the SNP nonsense thread instead? I put it here as I thought it was relevant to the independence argument.

Feel free to shift it if you want.

Merry Christmas to all, probably will be away from the forums until the weekend.

[marinello59]

Maybe it should be on the SNP nonsense thread instead? I put it here as I thought it was relevant to the independence argument.

Feel free to shift it if you want.

Merry Christmas to all, probably will be away from the forums until the weekend.

Why would I shift it, post it where you want. I certainly wouldn’t listen to my grumping too much. :greengrin

Merry Christmas to all, hope everyone has a good time.

[degenerated]

I still cannot believe that the SNP were stupid enough to endorse GERS. It's a stick to beat Scotland with.

PS - The 7% notional deficit has basically been taken as gospel by the press and anybody who opposes Independence.Gers is a political tool, nothing more. Leaked letters from Ian lang, who introduced it, confirm that. He saw it as a tool to use against both labour and the snp.

What's more frustrating is that Alex Salmond knew that back in 2006 both still chose to give it credibility prior to referendum

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12432586.gers-was-conceived-as-a-political-exercise/

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[ronaldo7]

Gers is a political tool, nothing more. Leaked letters from Ian lang, who introduced it, confirm that. He saw it as a tool to use against both labour and the snp.

What's more frustrating is that Alex Salmond knew that back in 2006 both still chose to give it credibility prior to referendum

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12432586.gers-was-conceived-as-a-political-exercise/

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I'm more surprised, that 13 years on, we still have some Scots, who think they're real. They're made up. FFS

Some folk on here still support people like, Kevin *ague, a dog food salesman, purporting to be an economist.

[degenerated]

I'm more surprised, that 13 years on, we still have some Scots, who think they're real. They're made up. FFS

Some folk on here still support people like, Kevin *ague, a dog food salesman, purporting to be an economist.When the likes of the BBC put Hague up as an expert on them then its understandable that some are conned into buying his snake oil. They always omit that he has no qualifications in economics whatsoever.

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[Moulin Yarns]

When the likes of the BBC put Hague up as an expert on them then its understandable that some are conned into buying his snake oil. They always omit that he has no qualifications in economics whatsoever.

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He does look like a anker though. 😉

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-third-highest-quality-of-life-in-world-says-un-report-1.4110646?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR18xeOVO-O3puQ5rTaSyxmCm5lB35S4IGMKua8gQ-TJJJin77VJrRybF0M

How on earth do they manage it without Westminster to help pool resources for them?


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[CloudSquall]

Kevin Hague has enlisted Goron Brown to speak at a pro-Union event in Newcastle.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18138974.unionists-enlist-brown-no-vote-fundraiser/?ref=twtrec


Does he still influence people's opinions with his rent-a-quotes? God help us if so...

[Ozyhibby]

Kevin Hague has enlisted Goron Brown to speak at a pro-Union event in Newcastle.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18138974.unionists-enlist-brown-no-vote-fundraiser/?ref=twtrec


Does he still influence people's opinions with his rent-a-quotes? God help us if so...

I doubt the good people of Newcastle will be voting on the union anytime soon.[emoji3]


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[Hibrandenburg]

I doubt the good people of Newcastle will be voting on the union anytime soon.[emoji3]


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A couple of polls at the end of last year saw people in England favour leaving the EU more important than the union, so anything could happen depending on who's pushing the buttons.

[HiBremian]

I doubt the good people of Newcastle will be voting on the union anytime soon.[emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMost of my Geordie mates want the border of an indy Scotland moved to the Tyne. Easy route to the Champions League and the Mackems stuck abroad. Win win.

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[grunt]

Easy route to the Champions League and the Mackems stuck abroad. Win win.
Is this the same Newcastle who drew at League One Rochdale the other day? :greengrin

[StevieC]

Is this the same Newcastle who drew at League One Rochdale the other day? :greengrin

Okay, maybe just the Europa League then :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

if there's between 10+15k in glasgow today i'l be pleasantly surprised, horrible weather will put thousands off, the march is also too soon after voters made things perfectly clear at the ballot box just over 3 weeks ago...imo

[Curried]

if there's between 10+15k in glasgow today i'l be pleasantly surprised, horrible weather will put thousands off, the march is also too soon after voters made things perfectly clear at the ballot box just over 3 weeks ago...imo


Well over that......check out the numbers passing Charing X now...quite amazing given the weather.

https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/AUOBindyref2020-Cam4Bridge

[Curried]

A few more streams here:

https://livestream.com/independencelive

[Curried]

Clearly no appetite for independence……pissing down and blowing a gale in Glasgow, yet easily >100K out in protest.

https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/AUOBindyref2020-Cam4Bridge

[weecounty hibby]

Im just back. Was with the Yesbikers. It is probably the worst riding conditions I've been in for years, very strong winds, torrential rain as well. But no one was caring. The enthusiasm, positivity and downright belief that we will, hopefully soon, be independent is fantastic. The classic hope over fear contrast was when you see the Indy folk singing and dancing in the rain and you pass the counter "demonstration" and every one of them had faces like skelped erses. Saor Alba🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[cabbageandribs1875]

Well over that......check out the numbers passing Charing X now...quite amazing given the weather
https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/AUOBindyref2020-Cam4Bridge



ta muchly, was watching videos earlier, clearly 300k+ i would say :thumbsup:


i'm glabberfasted at that turnout :cb

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82120266_10212553256825472_8676332540673392640_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_eui2=AeFqhk9Ud1IUZ_uC5Rmn1hcUjSaGdr_qE1uHVMlAc 6pCVI2T1dD7ngC-UYKtRm74F_guQ82uQ2k_x3ONUKZ-ipOGpoHuGZK61yaC-dxTvv7fcw&_nc_oc=AQmAoxnZUyrfJWJA8CrBXyQEfbaoVPFnwhdO9joEU_q M6sSMszOhQMKfyz0yWt7klxo&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=b4fb110033b9d4c0e79eca1c963a268a&oe=5EA16277


only in Scotland :greengrin

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82410991_10158249652198923_5603081533972807680_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_eui2=AeGMe9xqhrFCDxNysV1SqujY62g4lC0QQW3io0QjW peNA60-0QGu4JukRECPBFhuqd1bsWnOopbP7IKA49uqJwsiGewJ7IoaSZ Q3rP4yXv8IIQ&_nc_oc=AQnxQaECrO7Zlo_srnP1s6TCHZwpovRbeghJJi-eH8n-bbUQ2akTm-gy7n9yhOxwzvc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=cbf020a0ff5d65fcfe30b2c94dd1ca4d&oe=5E9BC1E4

[Moulin Yarns]

ta muchly, was watching videos earlier, clearly 300k+ i would say :thumbsup:


i'm glabberfasted at that turnout :cb

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82120266_10212553256825472_8676332540673392640_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_eui2=AeFqhk9Ud1IUZ_uC5Rmn1hcUjSaGdr_qE1uHVMlAc 6pCVI2T1dD7ngC-UYKtRm74F_guQ82uQ2k_x3ONUKZ-ipOGpoHuGZK61yaC-dxTvv7fcw&_nc_oc=AQmAoxnZUyrfJWJA8CrBXyQEfbaoVPFnwhdO9joEU_q M6sSMszOhQMKfyz0yWt7klxo&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=b4fb110033b9d4c0e79eca1c963a268a&oe=5EA16277


only in Scotland :greengrin

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82410991_10158249652198923_5603081533972807680_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_eui2=AeGMe9xqhrFCDxNysV1SqujY62g4lC0QQW3io0QjW peNA60-0QGu4JukRECPBFhuqd1bsWnOopbP7IKA49uqJwsiGewJ7IoaSZ Q3rP4yXv8IIQ&_nc_oc=AQnxQaECrO7Zlo_srnP1s6TCHZwpovRbeghJJi-eH8n-bbUQ2akTm-gy7n9yhOxwzvc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=cbf020a0ff5d65fcfe30b2c94dd1ca4d&oe=5E9BC1E4

Beat me to it.

#AUOBGlasgow - Absolutely love this guy! 😂😂😂🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 https://t.co/CXOryVPLFp

[cabbageandribs1875]

Beat me to it.

#AUOBGlasgow - Absolutely love this guy! �������������������������������������������� ���� https://t.co/CXOryVPLFp


small clip on this facebook thread from issy dunn with, i think, a couple of the SheBoom drummers with some dancing in the puddles under a bridge,having a blast :thumbsup:i've watched it a dozen times..at least

https://www.facebook.com/Yes2020Scotland/photos/a.447543318717298/1547605658711053/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/ross.paterson.148/videos/10215568066776066/


here's tae us, whae's like us

[cabbageandribs1875]

not as big a turnout as first thought :(


22869

[lord bunberry]

Was manky jaiket spouting his usual pish? That guy is the funniest part of these marches.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Was manky jaiket spouting his usual pish? That guy is the funniest part of these marches.



the photos/clips will come soon enough mate


no match at i brox today so...


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/81849360_10215659314859880_5210827603962757120_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFJta9u73mOt-ScEF0cWTBx5CNSB6s2VS-w8mkiL2ZdZDPveu6KoU2MVYGMKZkiRAo__qOHWGmrRjS8RduZR tHYncTn2mB4lbd0yoXYFS9hGQ&_nc_oc=AQma3gqmIv2KC1M_D3Td2FfNMZs8ZyqwZOq9quZb6AI DsNPckbMUhkCWvTtgLwEkO4g&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=30747fef76e99860f6db9e2a6a628f5f&oe=5EACEE3D

[cabbageandribs1875]

Glesca city council estimated at least 100k took part



according to Aljazeera





i still counted at least 300K+ :)

[lord bunberry]

the photos/clips will come soon enough mate


no match at i brox today so...


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/81849360_10215659314859880_5210827603962757120_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFJta9u73mOt-ScEF0cWTBx5CNSB6s2VS-w8mkiL2ZdZDPveu6KoU2MVYGMKZkiRAo__qOHWGmrRjS8RduZR tHYncTn2mB4lbd0yoXYFS9hGQ&_nc_oc=AQma3gqmIv2KC1M_D3Td2FfNMZs8ZyqwZOq9quZb6AI DsNPckbMUhkCWvTtgLwEkO4g&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=30747fef76e99860f6db9e2a6a628f5f&oe=5EACEE3D

that’s the picture that will make most of the right wing press in our so called United Kingdom. We know different. We’ve had enough.

[lord bunberry]

https://youtu.be/otuwNwsqHmQ

[cabbageandribs1875]

that’s the picture that will make most of the right wing press in our so called United Kingdom. We know different. We’ve had enough.


they should really choose this one then....not that they like giving the facts right enough


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/82168714_2871451269540049_969182365597302784_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeEbNnGEPGzohdib3MQHTY09tiz8colXVO4FH6irU tMHbyytC8zt7ep9pptNmTPMbgZt6BlNwCWej3zA-dt7r9uccOuWfAW_V8r7gv9WG0JuJA&_nc_oc=AQlyKuXxK3C_1-EeCRgPhd0F3IFkjnjGO4IWoJEPwz8_ZHjza-COP8ZPePjj5L19pdQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_tp=1&oh=b4124b4c1a1c4448a4f4367b412fd22d&oe=5E9667B6

[JeMeSouviens]

they should really choose this one then....not that they like giving the facts right enough


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/82168714_2871451269540049_969182365597302784_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeEbNnGEPGzohdib3MQHTY09tiz8colXVO4FH6irU tMHbyytC8zt7ep9pptNmTPMbgZt6BlNwCWej3zA-dt7r9uccOuWfAW_V8r7gv9WG0JuJA&_nc_oc=AQlyKuXxK3C_1-EeCRgPhd0F3IFkjnjGO4IWoJEPwz8_ZHjza-COP8ZPePjj5L19pdQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_tp=1&oh=b4124b4c1a1c4448a4f4367b412fd22d&oe=5E9667B6

Ironically, the indy marchers have taken over Union st in that pic.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Ironically, the indy marchers have taken over Union st in that pic.


i think it's quite apt the nuggets were standing outside KFC :greengrin

[CloudSquall]

Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has now said that even if the SNP get a majority in 2021 they won't grant the Scottish Parliament the right to hold a referendum.

Surely any Scottish democrat, yes or no leaning, can see the problem with this?

[Curried]

Some fantastic B&W pics from Saturday's march posted here:

https://twitter.com/YourWullie/status/1216390857458356225https://twitter.com/YourWullie/status/1216390857458356225

[SHODAN]

Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has now said that even if the SNP get a majority in 2021 they won't grant the Scottish Parliament the right to hold a referendum.

Surely any Scottish democrat, yes or no leaning, can see the problem with this?

As long as there is a Tory government then the date will alwyas be "a generation away". The real answer is "no independence referendum that stands a realistic chance of Yes winning".

It will need to be taken to international courts to go through, and after Brexit we might see a little help from the EU on that front.

[Callum_62]

Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has now said that even if the SNP get a majority in 2021 they won't grant the Scottish Parliament the right to hold a referendum.

Surely any Scottish democrat, yes or no leaning, can see the problem with this?This is exactly why the union is an absolute farce

A country elects a majority government on the basis of being given the choice on something and the UK Gov just says, emm, no.



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[Ozyhibby]

I’ll be amazed if the Tories take away Scotland’s democratic path to independence this week. It would be a massive error.


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[Cataplana]

they should really choose this one then....not that they like giving the facts right enough


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/82168714_2871451269540049_969182365597302784_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeEbNnGEPGzohdib3MQHTY09tiz8colXVO4FH6irU tMHbyytC8zt7ep9pptNmTPMbgZt6BlNwCWej3zA-dt7r9uccOuWfAW_V8r7gv9WG0JuJA&_nc_oc=AQlyKuXxK3C_1-EeCRgPhd0F3IFkjnjGO4IWoJEPwz8_ZHjza-COP8ZPePjj5L19pdQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&_nc_tp=1&oh=b4124b4c1a1c4448a4f4367b412fd22d&oe=5E9667B6

Much Stone Island and Fathell, Lanarkshire haircuts there.

What is the significance of them mustering outside KFC? Perhaps the colonel is more sinister than those wee beady eyes suggest.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has now said that even if the SNP get a majority in 2021 they won't grant the Scottish Parliament the right to hold a referendum.

Surely any Scottish democrat, yes or no leaning, can see the problem with this?

You would think wouldn't you. This should be the most massive story in the UK and especially Scottish media at the moment. It's as clear a dismissal, in fact abuse, of democracy as you could possibly get. The system of democracy used by the UK before and since the introduction of universal suffrage has been the first past the post system.
On that basis government after government has enforced policies not supported by 50% of the population and gotten us involved in military conflicts all over the globe with little or no public support, but their right to do that has never been questioned because having a majority of seats under the first past the post system is accepted by all political parties as a mandate .. not to mention the general public who voted to keep it over PR when asked the question in a referendum.

Never at any time in UK politics has it ever been stated or argued by any political party that a government with a majority of seats, but lacking over 50% of the popular vote, hadn't been given a legitimate mandate by the voting public.

For obvious reasons the only place the SNP stand for election within the UK parliamentary system is Scotland On that basis winning the majority of seats in Scotland has to be a mandate for the platform they stood on to be respected by Westminster. If that Scottish mandate is not respected then Westminster's assertion that the union is made up of 4 equal partners all equally respected within that union is utterly blown out of the water. The inescapable logic of that state of affairs is that Scotland is nothing more than a region of England ( masquerading under the guise of something called Britain ) but a region of England all the same. Not a partner in a so called 'union' but a possession of it, no different from the way a whole tranche of countries were possessions of the British empire.

No amount of 'once in a generation' nonsense or pretending that in general elections Scotland has a system of proportional representation that doesn't apply in the rest of the UK can or should cover up this democratic outrage and no Scot who maintains that Scotland is a country, be they unionist or not, should think to tolerate it. Because if they do they are admitting and asserting that in 1707 Scotland ceased to be a country and it's government at the time gave up the right of it's people to decide on its status not just within the UK but in the world.

If we tolerate this we might as well change the signs at the border to read ... 'welcome to Scotlandshire' ... because that is exactly what we will be, if we aren't already.






I’ll be amazed if the Tories take away Scotland’s democratic path to independence this week. It would be a massive error.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They don't give a **** about Scotland mate.

[ronaldo7]

I’ll be amazed if the Tories take away Scotland’s democratic path to independence this week. It would be a massive error.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It seems they're wanting to push some towards more disturbing methods. If not democracy then what?

[Ozyhibby]

It seems they're wanting to push some towards more disturbing methods. If not democracy then what?

That’s the big question. If they say no, not ever then Scotland ceases to be a democracy and that is a very dangerous route to go down.


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[davhibby]

The thing is though that this Tory government have already shown that they’re quite happy to just do whatever they want with no care for the law so I think they’ll be quite happy to just say no and hope it goes away. Quite a dangerous ploy because the more they say no, will surely just be a springboard for the yes movement.

[Ozyhibby]

The thing is though that this Tory government have already shown that they’re quite happy to just do whatever they want with no care for the law so I think they’ll be quite happy to just say no and hope it goes away. Quite a dangerous ploy because the more they say no, will surely just be a springboard for the yes movement.

It’s also dangerous because it encourages the crazies and that’s the last thing we want. The has to be a democratic pathway. NI taught us that and they have a clear route to reunification if they want it.


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[JeMeSouviens]

The thing is though that this Tory government have already shown that they’re quite happy to just do whatever they want with no care for the law so I think they’ll be quite happy to just say no and hope it goes away. Quite a dangerous ploy because the more they say no, will surely just be a springboard for the yes movement.

They refused a devo ref which Labour would've held if they won in 92 (don't think the constitutional convention had got going by 87) but all they did was draw more attention to the perceived "democratic deficit"*. Could well end up being we go round the same loop again.


* bet there's a few Libs and Labs wish they'd never used that line. :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.facebook.com/ReportingScotland/?__tn__=%2CdkCH-R-R&eid=ARDh_JD6zpubbfOhV6M-uiRRVPB5t3B6F2h1cVzwh8hmx-13Za7osisJe_1WsWVIGf9lVrgK-94P_HDr&hc_ref=ARStDtZTnODTyqYLe9FIUIcFa-upHYGa0ERj0yEflxQj6Uv3B-BxBSC5BiAsWX-5dZ0&fref=nf&hc_location=group


scroll down to the video titled "would you vote to join the UK union"

well, would you ? i mean,seriously

[cabbageandribs1875]

Much Stone Island and Fathell, Lanarkshire haircuts there.

What is the significance of them mustering outside KFC? Perhaps the colonel is more sinister than those wee beady eyes suggest.



a load of Nuggets i imagine :wink:probably put there deliberately by the polis, the polis must love the indy marches, no arrests, no hatred, and overtime :greengrin however i wouldn't fancy doing there jobs at the sectarian marches

[Moulin Yarns]

Here's Boris Johnson's letter to @NicolaSturgeon, rejecting her call for #indyref2 - "I cannot agree to any request for a transfer of power that would lead to further independence referendums" https://t.co/zeaoXUPQ4m

[Callum_62]

Here's Boris Johnson's letter to @NicolaSturgeon, rejecting her call for #indyref2 - "I cannot agree to any request for a transfer of power that would lead to further independence referendums" https://t.co/zeaoXUPQ4mThat's some stretch using the once in a generation thing

He never laid infront of the steamrollers nor, unfortunately died in a ditch

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[SHODAN]

Wonder what they've got planned for next month.

[Bristolhibby]

That's some stretch using the once in a generation thing

He never laid infront of the steamrollers nor, unfortunately died in a ditch

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How’s that Vow coming along?

Unionists can drop the “once in a generation” crap as soon as they can validate all the extra powers that were promised in order to win the 2014 referendum.

Boris has played right into the Independence trap.

J

[CloudSquall]

If the only argument they have is "Eck said once in a generation in 2014" why don't they just close Holyrood and we can run Scotland for eternity based on Salmond's opinions and beliefs in 2014?

We could make a Salmond book of ideas like North Korea's "Juche" system based on Kim Il Sung.

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn’t even appear like there is a time limit on the suspension of democracy in Scotland?
We need the SNP to map out a plan soon.


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[Bristolhibby]

If the only argument they have is "Eck said once in a generation in 2014" why don't they just close Holyrood and we can run Scotland for eternity based on Salmond's opinions and beliefs in 2014?

We could make a Salmond book of ideas like North Korea's "Juche" system based on Kim Il Sung.

Johnson could have at least given a proposal as to the definition of a “Generation”.

Just so we can plan ahead for the actual time period that will have elapsed.

J

[lapsedhibee]

Johnson could have at least given a proposal as to the definition of a “Generation”.



It wouldn't really have mattered if he had. He's not bound by what he says, about anything. Not the way he rolls.
Judging by recent interviews given by Johnson loyalists, the three-word slogan which Cummings is eventually going to settle on to convince halfwits that a referendum is a bad idea will include the neologism 'neverendum'. Absolute genius since, as everyone knows, doing something twice in seven years is exactly the same as doing it continuously,

[Moulin Yarns]

It wouldn't really have mattered if he had. He's not bound by what he says, about anything. Not the way he rolls.
Judging by recent interviews given by Johnson loyalists, the three-word slogan which Cummings is eventually going to settle on to convince halfwits that a referendum is a bad idea will include the neologism 'neverendum'. Absolute genius since, as everyone knows, doing something twice in seven years is exactly the same as doing it continuously,

Is that similar to the definition of an idiot? Keep doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome. A bit like elections, keep voting for one party but end up with the complete opposite.

[Bristolhibby]

It wouldn't really have mattered if he had. He's not bound by what he says, about anything. Not the way he rolls.
Judging by recent interviews given by Johnson loyalists, the three-word slogan which Cummings is eventually going to settle on to convince halfwits that a referendum is a bad idea will include the neologism 'neverendum'. Absolute genius since, as everyone knows, doing something twice in seven years is exactly the same as doing it continuously,

Very 1984.

J

[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1217052690682990593

Adam "Staunch in our opposition to seperatism" Tomkins🤣🤣

[lucky]

The Tories do not care about falling for the SNP trap. They are in power for another 5 years and won’t transferring any powers anytime soon. I voted no last time but believe it should be the Scottish people who decide our future not a Tory PM

[degenerated]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1217052690682990593

Adam "Staunch in our opposition to seperatism" Tomkins[emoji1787][emoji1787]The same adam tomkins that used to be a republican nationalist [emoji23]

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[weecounty hibby]

Peaceful civil disobedience is coming. Whether you agree with independence or not anyone who disagrees about holding a referendum is blocking democracy. Did the EU block the referendum on leaving? If England wanted to break the Union does anyone think they would ask Scotland if it was ok? It is all about keeping what's left of England's empire and sad to say some in Scotland are happy to help them. Time to get off our knees, stop waiting on the scraps and take control of our country.

[Hibrandenburg]

Johnson could have at least given a proposal as to the definition of a “Generation”.

Just so we can plan ahead for the actual time period that will have elapsed.

J

I'm sure Salmond would consider to keep his word on the once in a generation thing if Boris kept his about preferring to be dead in a ditch.

[Sir David Gray]

I'm not a fan of the SNP and although I'm not completely opposed to the concept of independence, I would vote against it if the vote was tomorrow.

Having said that, I do feel it's a mistake for the UK government to just dismiss granting another referendum. I feel it will only serve to stoke up pro-independence feelings in Scotland and you can bet the SNP will step up the rhetoric now, whereas if they allowed another referendum to take place this year, I don't believe the Yes vote would win.

The Scottish elections take place in less than 16 months and I'm assuming the SNP will win that easily and if they do win by a considerable margin, I'm not really sure how the UK government can continue to oppose another vote.

On the other hand though, what happens if we do get another referendum and Scotland votes No again but continues to vote SNP at Westminster and Holyrood elections?

The SNP will never stop pushing for independence, it's the main reason for their existence. Do we end up having exactly the same conversation over and over again about holding a referendum on independence any time something happens at Westminster that the SNP doesn't like?

If so then that's not a good sign for Scotland.

[Bristolhibby]

I'm not a fan of the SNP and although I'm not completely opposed to the concept of independence, I would vote against it if the vote was tomorrow.

Having said that, I do feel it's a mistake for the UK government to just dismiss granting another referendum. I feel it will only serve to stoke up pro-independence feelings in Scotland and you can bet the SNP will step up the rhetoric now, whereas if they allowed another referendum to take place this year, I don't believe the Yes vote would win.

The Scottish elections take place in less than 16 months and I'm assuming the SNP will win that easily and if they do win by a considerable margin, I'm not really sure how the UK government can continue to oppose another vote.

On the other hand though, what happens if we do get another referendum and Scotland votes No again but continues to vote SNP at Westminster and Holyrood elections?

The SNP will never stop pushing for independence, it's the main reason for their existence. Do we end up having exactly the same conversation over and over again about holding a referendum on independence any time something happens at Westminster that the SNP doesn't like?

If so then that's not a good sign for Scotland.

Don’t forget the Scottish Greens or the Scottish Socialist Party. Also pro Independence Parties. It’s not all about the SNP.

J

[lapsedhibee]

Don’t forget the Scottish Greens or the Scottish Socialist Party. Also pro Independence Parties. It’s not all about the SNP.

J

And pro-referendum Scottish Labour. It's not all about the SNP. It's about Johnson's massive ego, and him not wanting to go down in history as the incompetent **** who lost Scotland and Ireland.

[The Modfather]

I'm not a fan of the SNP and although I'm not completely opposed to the concept of independence, I would vote against it if the vote was tomorrow.

Having said that, I do feel it's a mistake for the UK government to just dismiss granting another referendum. I feel it will only serve to stoke up pro-independence feelings in Scotland and you can bet the SNP will step up the rhetoric now, whereas if they allowed another referendum to take place this year, I don't believe the Yes vote would win.

The Scottish elections take place in less than 16 months and I'm assuming the SNP will win that easily and if they do win by a considerable margin, I'm not really sure how the UK government can continue to oppose another vote.

On the other hand though, what happens if we do get another referendum and Scotland votes No again but continues to vote SNP at Westminster and Holyrood elections?

The SNP will never stop pushing for independence, it's the main reason for their existence. Do we end up having exactly the same conversation over and over again about holding a referendum on independence any time something happens at Westminster that the SNP doesn't like?

If so then that's not a good sign for Scotland.

The SNP, or any party, can campaign on whatever they choose to. Only the voters can give a party a mandate. If there was a second referendum and the vote was no, and a few years later a party campaigned for another referendum, and won a resounding majority why would that be any less valid a mandate than any of the other times?

[SHODAN]

I'm not a fan of the SNP and although I'm not completely opposed to the concept of independence, I would vote against it if the vote was tomorrow.

Having said that, I do feel it's a mistake for the UK government to just dismiss granting another referendum. I feel it will only serve to stoke up pro-independence feelings in Scotland and you can bet the SNP will step up the rhetoric now, whereas if they allowed another referendum to take place this year, I don't believe the Yes vote would win.

The Scottish elections take place in less than 16 months and I'm assuming the SNP will win that easily and if they do win by a considerable margin, I'm not really sure how the UK government can continue to oppose another vote.

On the other hand though, what happens if we do get another referendum and Scotland votes No again but continues to vote SNP at Westminster and Holyrood elections?

The SNP will never stop pushing for independence, it's the main reason for their existence. Do we end up having exactly the same conversation over and over again about holding a referendum on independence any time something happens at Westminster that the SNP doesn't like?

If so then that's not a good sign for Scotland.

As long as public support for independence remains in the balance we will continue having votes on it until either we leave or the UK government does a Canada and introduces federalism (as they did for Quebec). That won't happen so independence it is.

[weecounty hibby]

I'm not a fan of the SNP and although I'm not completely opposed to the concept of independence, I would vote against it if the vote was tomorrow.

Having said that, I do feel it's a mistake for the UK government to just dismiss granting another referendum. I feel it will only serve to stoke up pro-independence feelings in Scotland and you can bet the SNP will step up the rhetoric now, whereas if they allowed another referendum to take place this year, I don't believe the Yes vote would win.

The Scottish elections take place in less than 16 months and I'm assuming the SNP will win that easily and if they do win by a considerable margin, I'm not really sure how the UK government can continue to oppose another vote.

On the other hand though, what happens if we do get another referendum and Scotland votes No again but continues to vote SNP at Westminster and Holyrood elections?

The SNP will never stop pushing for independence, it's the main reason for their existence. Do we end up having exactly the same conversation over and over again about holding a referendum on independence any time something happens at Westminster that the SNP doesn't like?

If so then that's not a good sign for Scotland.

I'll tell you what's not a good sign for Scotland, decades of a Tory government in Westminster yelling the citizens of Scotland what we can and can't do. Changing the rules on referendum voting, introducing unpopular bills because they can, lessening the powers of Holyrood again just because they can as they have such a huge majority.
Independence is the only way that the people of Scotland will get what the people of Scotland vote for. We have been shown time after time after time the contempt that Westminster, and those who support it, shows for us. From the vow to Brexit and everything in-between we are the **** on their shoes and they treat us that way

[makaveli1875]

I guess il be in the minority that's glad it's not happening in the near future. Maybe we can just get on with life this year and the SNP can just get on with running the country without spending 24/7 grandstanding about referendums

[Ozyhibby]

I guess il be in the minority that's glad it's not happening in the near future. Maybe we can just get on with life this year and the SNP can just get on with running the country without spending 24/7 grandstanding about referendums

The SNP are getting on with running the country and are performing better than any other nation in the uk.


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[Smartie]

I guess il be in the minority that's glad it's not happening in the near future. Maybe we can just get on with life this year and the SNP can just get on with running the country without spending 24/7 grandstanding about referendums

Out of interest, which part of running the country do you feel has been neglected whilst they grandstand over referendums?

I accept that the Scottish government has areas where they could do much better, but do you honestly feel that the most important thing that can happen to improve those areas is for SNP politicians to focus a wee bit harder?

The biggest improvement that could be made to schools, hospitals etc would be for them to have more money to spend from tax receipts and people will have strong opinions on how that money can be raised.

[Ozyhibby]

Out of interest, which part of running the country do you feel has been neglected whilst they grandstand over referendums?

I accept that the Scottish government has areas where they could do much better, but do you honestly feel that the most important thing that can happen to improve those areas is for SNP politicians to focus a wee bit harder?

The biggest improvement that could be made to schools, hospitals etc would be for them to have more money to spend from tax receipts and people will have strong opinions on how that money can be raised.

As we are looking at 10 years of Tory govt then more money is not likely to happen anytime soon. We have to live on whatever England votes for and it’s looking like Tory for the foreseeable future.


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[makaveli1875]

Out of interest, which part of running the country do you feel has been neglected whilst they grandstand over referendums?

I accept that the Scottish government has areas where they could do much better, but do you honestly feel that the most important thing that can happen to improve those areas is for SNP politicians to focus a wee bit harder?

The biggest improvement that could be made to schools, hospitals etc would be for them to have more money to spend from tax receipts and people will have strong opinions on how that money can be raised.

They were given millions to build a new kids hospital in Edinburgh. It's sitting empty unable to be used costing millions of taxpayers cash for nothing.

[Ozyhibby]

They were given millions to build a new kids hospital in Edinburgh. It's sitting empty unable to be used costing millions of taxpayers cash for nothing.

We were given millions? Lucky us.

It’s a building project that has run over budget and over time. Happens in all parts of the UK.


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[Peevemor]

They were given millions to build a new kids hospital in Edinburgh. It's sitting empty unable to be used costing millions of taxpayers cash for nothing.

Why has the handover/opening ben delayed? Who's at fault?

If you take your car to the garage to be repaired and they say it'll take 2 days but it ends up taking a week, is that your fault?

[The Modfather]

They were given millions to build a new kids hospital in Edinburgh. It's sitting empty unable to be used costing millions of taxpayers cash for nothing.

Would the school have been built on time and for budget if independence wasn’t a hot topic? Would HS2 and the 30bn overspend have been avoided if the UK government wasn’t focussed on Brexit? Questions should be asked and a review take place into the sick kids hospital (as well as HS2 and any project that has a vast overspend and delay). To try and link it to Indyref2 is tenuous to say the least.

[Peevemor]

Would the school have been built on time and for budget if independence wasn’t a hot topic? Would HS2 and the 30bn overspend have been avoided if the UK government wasn’t focussed on Brexit? Questions should be asked and a review take place into the sick kids hospital (as well as HS2 and any project that has a vast overspend and delay). To try and link it to Indyref2 is tenuous to say the least.

More pathetic than tenuous I'd say.

[Ozyhibby]

More pathetic than tenuous I'd say.

But surely if they had just concentrated more on the day job? [emoji23]


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[makaveli1875]

More pathetic than tenuous I'd say.

What's pathetic is the multi million pound hospital sitting empty and costing the taxpayer a vast fortune . People pointing it out isnt the problem

[Peevemor]

What's pathetic is the multi million pound hospital sitting empty and costing the taxpayer a vast fortune . People pointing it out isnt the problem

Who's fault is it? Have you made any effort to find out or do you prefer to automatically blame the SG/SNP?

[makaveli1875]

Who's fault is it? Hve you made any effort to find out or do you prefer to automatically blame the SG/SNP?

OK who is ultimately responsible for the project ?

[heretoday]

I guess il be in the minority that's glad it's not happening in the near future. Maybe we can just get on with life this year and the SNP can just get on with running the country without spending 24/7 grandstanding about referendums

Hear hear! Don't bet on it though. Nicola has to keep the pot boiling for fear of apathy creeping in.
Also there is a possibility Brexit will bring good things in time in terms of jobs, industry etc and she needs to grasp her opportunity before that happens.

[The Modfather]

What's pathetic is the multi million pound hospital sitting empty and costing the taxpayer a vast fortune . People pointing it out isnt the problem

Is the HS2 overspend and delay because the UK government are focussed on Brexit?

[Peevemor]

OK who is ultimately responsible for the project ?

You can't answer my question can you?

[Peevemor]

Hear hear! Don't bet on it though. Nicola has to keep the pot boiling for fear of apathy creeping in.
Also there is a possibility Brexit will bring good things in time in terms of jobs, industry etc and she needs to grasp her opportunity before that happens.

In about 60 years or something the last I heard.

[southfieldhibby]

OK who is ultimately responsible for the project ?

I'd say the board of NHS Lothian?

[Cataplana]

I'd say the board of NHS Lothian?

I think you'll find, after an expensive public enquiry, that nobody is to blame. That's what they usually decide anyway.

[ronaldo7]

Is the HS2 overspend and delay because the UK government are focussed on Brexit?

Don't tell him about crossrail. 👷

[JeMeSouviens]

Hear hear! Don't bet on it though. Nicola has to keep the pot boiling for fear of apathy creeping in.
Also there is a possibility Brexit will bring good things in time in terms of jobs, industry etc and she needs to grasp her opportunity before that happens.

Dream on. The government's own forecasts are bad and all the independent forecasts are bad. You have to go to the economic equivalent of the climate change deniers to get an upbeat outlook. And any economic gains from Brexit are going to be via slashing workers' rights and environmental protections, so even if you're clutching at a growth straw, it's not going to have any industrial jobs attached to it.

[Ozyhibby]

If a late hospital construction project is all unionists can point to as the SNP failing then I think it must be doing a pretty fine job in government which probably explains its popularity.


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[JeMeSouviens]

As long as public support for independence remains in the balance we will continue having votes on it until either we leave or the UK government does a Canada and introduces federalism (as they did for Quebec). That won't happen so independence it is.

Canada already had a federal structure. The Quebecois eventually lost interest in independence (or at least, the tide has gone out a long way for now). The key thing was a younger generation came along post-1994 that couldn't be bothered with it and in more recent times, a breakaway from the main indy party, the PQ, called CAQ (coalition for Quebec's future) came along that promised to be all the things the PQ were but without holding a new ref.

So I guess the same thing could happen here which is what Unionists hope for and why they are attempting to stall for as much time as they can. There are stark differences between Quebec sovereigntists and Scottish nats though: theirs is much more of an ethnic/language thing, they have never been an independent country and they are not surrounded by similar sized successful states existing in happy mutual co-operation.

[WeeRussell]

Why has the handover/opening ben delayed? Who's at fault?

If you take your car to the garage to be repaired and they say it'll take 2 days but it ends up taking a week, is that your fault?

Nope - probably the SNP's.

[southfieldhibby]

I think you'll find, after an expensive public enquiry, that nobody is to blame. That's what they usually decide anyway.

Dark, but true.

I guess my point was things don't always have to eventually end up as the responsibility of 'the government'. I'd bet the folk on the board of NHS Lothian are well paid and able of taking responsibility for the actions of the thing they operate.

[heretoday]

OK who is ultimately responsible for the project ?

The guys clumping about in hard hats and high viz jackets who built it. I'm no SNPite but you can't hang it on the government.

[JeMeSouviens]

The guys clumping about in hard hats and high viz jackets who built it. I'm no SNPite but you can't hang it on the government.

Aha, just as we all suspected!

https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article13123264.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/1_SWNS_STURGEON_ECONOMY_06.jpg

[RyeSloan]

So to be clear issues with the a Scottish NHS like £1.4m a month for a hospital that can’t be used or children dying due to water infections in Glasgow or NHS Taysides financial meltdowns are nothing to do with the Scottish Government?

If so are we applying the same thought process to the NHS Scotland’s relatively better A&E performance? So nothing to do with the SNP as well?

Is this the same thought process that dismisses the PISA eduction ratings as not relevant when they show Scotland lagging England in a number of areas and declining performance in key subjects?

[Smartie]

So to be clear issues with the a Scottish NHS like £1.4m a month for a hospital that can’t be used or children dying due to water infections in Glasgow or NHS Taysides financial meltdowns are nothing to do with the Scottish Government?

If so are we applying the same thought process to the NHS Scotland’s relatively better A&E performance? So nothing to do with the SNP as well?

Is this the same thought process that dismisses the PISA eduction ratings as not relevant when they show Scotland lagging England in a number of areas and declining performance in key subjects?

I don't think anyone is saying that the hospital fiasco is nothing to do with the Scottish government - as taxpayers we have all been let down by the project, those with sick children will have been let down even more and the government of the day needs to be able to stand up to scrutiny over what has gone wrong.

Where I think we disagree is that I don't think the problems related to this project can be readily laid at the foot of the SNP's habit of debating the merits of independence or pushing for a 2nd referendum. The project didn't slide into chaos because nobody in the SNP was paying attention, as is often suggested - lazily, I think - by unionists.

I honestly don't know what went on with the hospital. Does anyone yet? I want answers as much as anyone and I don't care who the government who are ultimately responsible for it are.

[The Modfather]

So to be clear issues with the a Scottish NHS like £1.4m a month for a hospital that can’t be used or children dying due to water infections in Glasgow or NHS Taysides financial meltdowns are nothing to do with the Scottish Government?

If so are we applying the same thought process to the NHS Scotland’s relatively better A&E performance? So nothing to do with the SNP as well?

Is this the same thought process that dismisses the PISA eduction ratings as not relevant when they show Scotland lagging England in a number of areas and declining performance in key subjects?

By all accounts governments, and the SNP, should be scrutinised and held to account. I thought the last page of so was in relation to a poster claiming the sick kids overspend and delay was because of Indyref2. He/she then ignored me asking them twice if the HS2 (for example) was because the UK government was too focussed on Brexit.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think anyone is saying that the hospital fiasco is nothing to do with the Scottish government - as taxpayers we have all been let down by the project, those with sick children will have been let down even more and the government of the day needs to be able to stand up to scrutiny over what has gone wrong.

Where I think we disagree is that I don't think the problems related to this project can be readily laid at the foot of the SNP's habit of debating the merits of independence or pushing for a 2nd referendum. The project didn't slide into chaos because nobody in the SNP was paying attention, as is often suggested - lazily, I think - by unionists.

I honestly don't know what went on with the hospital. Does anyone yet? I want answers as much as anyone and I don't care who the government who are ultimately responsible for it are.

It's not lazy, it's deliberate political messaging, presumably tested in focus groups.

[NAE NOOKIE]

What's pathetic is the multi million pound hospital sitting empty and costing the taxpayer a vast fortune . People pointing it out isnt the problem

No, but saying it's evidence that Scotland couldn't function as an independent country, or that the SNP are incompetent is. As others have pointed out, if you employ somebody to do a job for you and they make an arse of it, is that your fault or their fault? I'm sure the Scottish government are doing everything they can to get the problems sorted, if not then yes that's cause for criticism ... but to blame them for incompetence by the construction company is ridiculous.

[Bristolhibby]

Who's fault is it? Have you made any effort to find out or do you prefer to automatically blame the SG/SNP?

How did the Queensferry Crossing get on.

J

[RyeSloan]

I don't think anyone is saying that the hospital fiasco is nothing to do with the Scottish government - as taxpayers we have all been let down by the project, those with sick children will have been let down even more and the government of the day needs to be able to stand up to scrutiny over what has gone wrong.

Where I think we disagree is that I don't think the problems related to this project can be readily laid at the foot of the SNP's habit of debating the merits of independence or pushing for a 2nd referendum. The project didn't slide into chaos because nobody in the SNP was paying attention, as is often suggested - lazily, I think - by unionists.

I honestly don't know what went on with the hospital. Does anyone yet? I want answers as much as anyone and I don't care who the government who are ultimately responsible for it are.

Got ya, appreciate the response [emoji736]

[Moulin Yarns]

So to be clear issues with the a Scottish NHS like £1.4m a month for a hospital that can’t be used or children dying due to water infections in Glasgow or NHS Taysides financial meltdowns are nothing to do with the Scottish Government?

If so are we applying the same thought process to the NHS Scotland’s relatively better A&E performance? So nothing to do with the SNP as well?

Is this the same thought process that dismisses the PISA eduction ratings as not relevant when they show Scotland lagging England in a number of areas and declining performance in key subjects?

Out of interest, what personal experience do you have of the NHS in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Tayside?

I spent several periods of several weeks for different ailments including head trauma and major operations in the Sick Kids a long long time ago, and I'm still here. I had an operation about 40 years ago in the ERI and I'm still here to tell the tale. I am currently undergoing treatment as an outpatient at Perth and had an appointment on the 9th, and have a follow up on the 23rd. You know what, all of the different NHS trusts I have dealt with have been brilliant, so if that is the fault of the Scottish Government, keep doing the day job :greengrin

[grunt]

Also there is a possibility Brexit will bring good things in time in terms of jobs, industry etc and she needs to grasp her opportunity before that happens.No there isn't. Every respected economist says we'll be worse off after Brexit, the only question is how much worse off we'll be. Even Rees Mogg says it will take 50 years before the "benefits" of Brexit are felt. The reason she needs to grasp the opportunity now is because WM is taking steps to reduce ScotGov powers and to remove our ability to have a referendum.

[McD]

No there isn't. Every respected economist says we'll be worse off after Brexit, the only question is how much worse off we'll be. Even Rees Mogg says it will take 50 years before the "benefits" of Brexit are felt. The reason she needs to grasp the opportunity now is because WM is taking steps to reduce ScotGov powers and to remove our ability to have a referendum.



what steps?

[speedy_gonzales]

How did the Queensferry Crossing get on.

J

I'm sure we'll find out as soon as it's finished (which it isn't) :-p

[Moulin Yarns]

what steps?

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?344465-Scotland-Prisoner-of-a-union&p=6044213#post6044213

[grunt]

what steps?1. Steps to reduce/remove Holyrood powers: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/tory-manifesto-chilling-liberals-must-vote-tactically-protect-democracy/

2. Steps to prevent a further indy referendum: https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?344465-Scotland-Prisoner-of-a-union

[grunt]

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?344465-Scotland-Prisoner-of-a-union&p=6044213#post6044213
Thank you.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/83118428_10214659346454086_7230981650778161152_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQm99jGKwIEf70oHxFX9lbZUPMqHtf7gYwxwcOtfgd3 nfo-ug-k_c0rg3IrL4XsFdl8&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=9aaf21d50d6c30cbcf4804df70b5620b&oe=5ED9506C

her and jess philips mouthing off about Scotland the last few days

[CloudSquall]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/83118428_10214659346454086_7230981650778161152_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQm99jGKwIEf70oHxFX9lbZUPMqHtf7gYwxwcOtfgd3 nfo-ug-k_c0rg3IrL4XsFdl8&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=9aaf21d50d6c30cbcf4804df70b5620b&oe=5ED9506C

her and jess philips mouthing off about Scotland the last few days

You have to wonder who, if anyone, is advising them on Scotland.

Their arguments are at best 15 years out of date and at worst complete nonsense that have no relation whatsoever to the actual situation in Scotland now.


The irony is that the only way back for Labour is to be the centre left force in an independent Scotland when the nationalist Vs unionist argument that is now dominated by the SNP and Tories is put to bed.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/83118428_10214659346454086_7230981650778161152_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQm99jGKwIEf70oHxFX9lbZUPMqHtf7gYwxwcOtfgd3 nfo-ug-k_c0rg3IrL4XsFdl8&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=9aaf21d50d6c30cbcf4804df70b5620b&oe=5ED9506C

her and jess philips mouthing off about Scotland the last few days

Catalonia? Either she's very ignorant or very stupid. Either should disqualify her from any short term ambition of leadership. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

You have to wonder who, if anyone, is advising them on Scotland.

Their arguments are at best 15 years out of date and at worst complete nonsense that have no relation whatsoever to the actual situation in Scotland now.


The irony is that the only way back for Labour is to be the centre left force in an independent Scotland when the nationalist Vs unionist argument that is now dominated by the SNP and Tories is put to bed.

Blair McDougall and Ian Murray - which tells you all you need to know.

[degenerated]

I'm sure we'll find out as soon as it's finished (which it isn't) :-pWhat's still to be done?

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[speedy_gonzales]

What's still to be done?

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I'm not privy to an exhaustive list but the snagging and activities that were meant to be finished by last year (2 years after opening) weren't 100% completed.
I was informed this by someone that's still being employed to carry out works that aren't routine maintenance.
Just because the ribbon was cut and the bridge is carrying more traffic than ever before doesn't mean it's finished.
I reckon it's a nod towards its big sister, the Forth Bridge, legendary for the job (painting) never being finished even though they've now overcome that 10 years ago with its new coating.

[degenerated]

I'm not privy to an exhaustive list but the snagging and activities that were meant to be finished by last year (2 years after opening) weren't 100% completed.
I was informed this by someone that's still being employed to carry out works that aren't routine maintenance.
Just because the ribbon was cut and the bridge is carrying more traffic than ever before doesn't mean it's finished.
I reckon it's a nod towards its big sister, the Forth Bridge, legendary for the job (painting) never being finished even though they've now overcome that 10 years ago with its new coating.Surely the fact that it has been fully operational since it was handed over would suggest that it is completed.
Failing that, the certificate of practical completion issued would suffice for me.

Are you Alex Cole-Hamilton? Do I win £5?





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[Bristolhibby]

Surely the fact that it has been fully operational since it was handed over would suggest that it is completed.
Failing that, the certificate of practical completion issued would suffice for me.

Are you Alex Cole-Hamilton? Do I win £5?





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I did find the original comment weird. Especially since I’ve been over it!

J

[Ozyhibby]

I did find the original comment weird. Especially since I’ve been over it!

J

It will certainly be a tricky sell on the doorstep, trying to persuade voters of SNP incompetence because the bridge they drive on every day is not technically open.
When unionist go down this route it tells you the great job the SNP is doing.


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[Future17]

Blair McDougall and Ian Murray - which tells you all you need to know.

To be fair to Murray, he didn't hold back in his criticism of her.

[ronaldo7]

I did find the original comment weird. Especially since I’ve been over it!

J

22898

You sure? :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

To be fair to Murray, he didn't hold back in his criticism of her.

Actually, I'm not sure he has criticised her specifically. From https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/16/scottish-labour-mp-ian-murray-tells-leader-hopefuls-not-to-speak-on-scotland-unless-they-understand-issues the quote is:


“I wouldn’t talk about anything that’s happening in Salford, where Rebecca Long-Bailey is the MP, or in Norwich, where Clive Lewis is the MP, without having spoken to them and being completely across the issues. So it’s not different to coming up to Scotland. Come and listen to the membership and the public, and if you can do that, you’ll have a much better formulation of the biggest issue in Scottish politics.”

If he's criticising anything, it's the 2 candidates who have said they respect Holyrood's mandate to hold indyref2.

Unless you've seen a more direct criticism of Nandy's stupid remarks?

[speedy_gonzales]

Surely the fact that it has been fully operational since it was handed over would suggest that it is completed.
Failing that, the certificate of practical completion issued would suffice for me.

Are you Alex Cole-Hamilton? Do I win £5?






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Operational does not mean completed.
I'm genuinely (honestly) not trying to make a political comment here.
Last year, I drove the bridge a few times at night when a lane in each direction was closed for "Bridge Completion Works".
The bridge was open to traffic, but the overall works for the bridge weren't completed. As a user of the asset that doesn't mean too much to me, but I'm sure it makes a significant difference to the asset owner/maintainer.

[speedy_gonzales]

I did find the original comment weird. Especially since I’ve been over it!

J

As above.

[lapsedhibee]

Operational does not mean completed.


Few people taking 'completed' to mean 'meets in the middle'!

[degenerated]

Few people taking 'completed' to mean 'meets in the middle'!No, I take it as a practical completion certificate has been issued, the project has been handed over to the client and is operational.



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[heretoday]

Catalonia? Either she's very ignorant or very stupid. Either should disqualify her from any short term ambition of leadership. :rolleyes:

Nice But Dim.

[lapsedhibee]

No, I take it as a practical completion certificate has been issued, the project has been handed over to the client and is operational.
In that sense, then, would The Eighth Wonder not now be complete? Can't be having that!

[Steven79]

If anybody is free on the 1st of Feb before the St Mirren then feel free to join us at the Scottish Parliament.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1472387349592630/

[Future17]

Actually, I'm not sure he has criticised her specifically. From https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/16/scottish-labour-mp-ian-murray-tells-leader-hopefuls-not-to-speak-on-scotland-unless-they-understand-issues the quote is:



If he's criticising anything, it's the 2 candidates who have said they respect Holyrood's mandate to hold indyref2.

Unless you've seen a more direct criticism of Nandy's stupid remarks?

Yeah, fair comment. I saw his quote reported in the context of Nandy's Catalonia remarks and made an assumption.

That aside, I don't agree with a lot of what Murray says, but he does seem to be of a higher calibre than some of the other Labour Leader and Deputy Leader candidates.

[Ozyhibby]

I didn’t even know this govt dept existed but it seems to have a huge budget. This is a dept an independent Scotland has no real need to have at all. Reducing Scotland’s notional deficit might be easier than we think.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-51216084?__twitter_impression=true


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[RyeSloan]

I didn’t even know this govt dept existed but it seems to have a huge budget. This is a dept an independent Scotland has no real need to have at all. Reducing Scotland’s notional deficit might be easier than we think.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-51216084?__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can’t take the value of the projects that the finance has backed as its budget.

In fact UKEF has an explicit mission statement that it runs at no net cost to the taxpayer and aims to run with net operational income.

While the gist of the report is correct in terms of a view to reducing support for carbon producing industries it totally misses the point in terms of what role UKEF plays in terms of supporting UK business and exports.

Contrary to your point actually this department is a very good example of where the scale and credit worthiness of the UK allows such functions to exist, providing critical support to UK businesses....many of them SME’a that might struggle to get such support from the wider markets.

I’d politely suggest that stating an Indy Scotland would not need such a function suggests you haven’t fully understood what it does or why it exists.

[Moulin Yarns]

61% in favour of the Scottish Parliament having the decision to hold a legal 2nd referendum on independence.



https://www.progressscotland.org/research/scots-back-independence-referendum-powers-for-holyrood

[xyz23jc]

61% in favour of the Scottish Parliament having the decision to hold a legal 2nd referendum on independence.



https://www.progressscotland.org/research/scots-back-independence-referendum-powers-for-holyrood

But, but, but...... 2014 Will of the People etc. C. Ian Murray.

[Hibrandenburg]

Scottish Government told to gtf regarding having a say on immigration. Boris is going to look after our needs.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Scottish Government told to gtf regarding having a say on immigration. Boris is going to look after our needs.

That's because it isn't a government. As far as Westminster is concerned, be that the Tories, Labour or the Lib Dems, Holyrood is nothing more than a glorified regional council and that would be the case for them no matter who was running it.

What's needed here is a conversation around exactly what Scotland became when it entered into the 'union' There is nothing in the act which said Scotland, or England for that matter, gave up their right's as individual nations, only that there was an agreement that both parliaments would sit in London as the parliament of Britain or the UK. 90% of the act of union deals with trade, taxation and the right of succession to the throne. Not the dissolution of the countries of Scotland and England for all time to create the country of Britain.

This isn't my theory, but it's an interesting take on things and having read the 'act' I can see where the proponents of it are coming from. If every Scottish seat at Westminster was occupied by an SNP MP what would there be to stop them all decanting to Edinburgh, saying they were reconvening the 'real' Scottish parliament and declaring an end to the union there and then?

[Steven79]

That's because it isn't a government. As far as Westminster is concerned, be that the Tories, Labour or the Lib Dems, Holyrood is nothing more than a glorified regional council and that would be the case for them no matter who was running it.

What's needed here is a conversation around exactly what Scotland became when it entered into the 'union' There is nothing in the act which said Scotland, or England for that matter, gave up their right's as individual nations, only that there was an agreement that both parliaments would sit in London as the parliament of Britain or the UK. 90% of the act of union deals with trade, taxation and the right of succession to the throne. Not the dissolution of the countries of Scotland and England for all time to create the country of Britain.

This isn't my theory, but it's an interesting take on things and having read the 'act' I can see where the proponents of it are coming from. If every Scottish seat at Westminster was occupied by an SNP MP what would there be to stop them all decanting to Edinburgh, saying they were reconvening the 'real' Scottish parliament and declaring an end to the union there and then?They don't even need every Scottish seat as they majority they have right now would be enough.

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[Curried]

Some comedy gold from the Village Idiot during yesterday’s independence debate in Holyrood:


https://twitter.com/i/status/1222543082362753025

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPd1JOKX4AAvdsC?format=jpg&name=small

[CloudSquall]

Some comedy gold from the Village Idiot during yesterday’s independence debate in Holyrood:


https://twitter.com/i/status/1222543082362753025

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPd1JOKX4AAvdsC?format=jpg&name=small

https://mobile.twitter.com/agcolehamilton/status/1222493938952609792

His partner in crime Alex Cole-Hamilton provided some comedy too as he tried to explain his vote against keeping the EU flag up at Holyrood.

From what I understand he voted in favour when it was unionist Dugsdale who proposed keeping it up, but voted against when it was an SNP motion :greengrin

[Curried]

https://mobile.twitter.com/agcolehamilton/status/1222493938952609792

His partner in crime Alex Cole-Hamilton provided some comedy too as he tried to explain his vote against keeping the EU flag up at Holyrood.

From what I understand he voted in favour when it was unionist Dugsdale who proposed keeping it up, but voted against when it was an SNP motion :greengrin

The lad’s got principles and is clearly aspiring to be Flipper Davidson’s replacement in the house :-)

Is he truly suggesting in that twitter rant that the European Flag being flown at Holyrood will promote violence akin to the NI troubles?

[Moulin Yarns]

The lad’s got principles and is clearly aspiring to be Flipper Davidson’s replacement in the house :-)

Is he truly suggesting in that twitter rant that the European Flag being flown at Holyrood will promote violence akin to the NI troubles?

I hope not because I will be flying one outside my house from tomorrow.

[SHODAN]

Why have no opinion polls on independence been published since the election?

[grunt]

Why have no opinion polls on independence been published since the election?You called?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/01/30/scottish-independence-yes-leads-remainers-increasi?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=scottish_independence_Jan_2020

[CloudSquall]

It's a tricky situation for the SNP, there is a significant group within the Yes camp wanting a referendum asap this year but looking at that poll the best way to ensure a Yes vote would be to hold it in the next few years as demographics / Brexit take more of an effect.

[weecounty hibby]

That is before campaigning begins. Start of the last campaign had yes at 26%. it's coming and it can't come quickly enough.

[JeMeSouviens]

You called?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/01/30/scottish-independence-yes-leads-remainers-increasi?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=scottish_independence_Jan_2020

:aok:

In reality, it continues the run of virtual dead heats but it's a psychological boost nonetheless.

Under the hood, the age profile stays much the same as usual: Yes well ahead under 50s but miles behind with 65+. Interestingly the ABC1 vs C2DE difference has disappeared.

Also, questionably, Yougov appear to still be weighting by 2014 ref vote which seems a bit suspect given it's almost 5 1/2 years ago.

[danhibees1875]

Whichever way Scotland goes, the relationship between the EU and the UK is going to be quite an important factor.

I think it makes sense to wait to see what that looks like before considering another referendum.

[JeMeSouviens]

Like this YG graphic showing the churn going on underneath the relatively static headlines:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-01-30/Scottish%20independence%20Jan%202020%20sankey-01.png

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting first poll since Johnson said No to Scotland. Wonder how long he will think this a good idea?


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[Ozyhibby]

:aok:

In reality, it continues the run of virtual dead heats but it's a psychological boost nonetheless.

Under the hood, the age profile stays much the same as usual: Yes well ahead under 50s but miles behind with 65+. Interestingly the ABC1 vs C2DE difference has disappeared.

Also, questionably, Yougov appear to still be weighting by 2014 ref vote which seems a bit suspect given it's almost 5 1/2 years ago.

And the poll doesn’t include 16-17 year olds who I’m sure were allowed to vote in 2014?


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[SHODAN]

And the poll doesn’t include 16-17 year olds who I’m sure were allowed to vote in 2014?


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It does. Doesn't include EU citizens though.

[CloudSquall]

The age breakdown is mental (excluding DKs),


Under 50s

Yes: 66%
No: 34%

Under 65s

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

Over 65s

Yes: 25%
No: 75%




It's only a matter of time based on that, but is there anything the SNP / Yes campaign can do to turn some of that 75% of over 65s to Yes for a referendum in the next 1 to 2 years?

[Steven79]

The age breakdown is mental (excluding DKs),


Under 50s

Yes: 66%
No: 34%

Under 65s

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

Over 65s

Yes: 25%
No: 75%




It's only a matter of time based on that, but is there anything the SNP / Yes campaign can do to turn some of that 75% of over 65s to Yes for a referendum in the next 1 to 2 years?Offer them the same pensions as other EU countries.

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[Bristolhibby]

The age breakdown is mental (excluding DKs),


Under 50s

Yes: 66%
No: 34%

Under 65s

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

Over 65s

Yes: 25%
No: 75%




It's only a matter of time based on that, but is there anything the SNP / Yes campaign can do to turn some of that 75% of over 65s to Yes for a referendum in the next 1 to 2 years?

How about ask them to talk to their grandchildren and listen to what they have to say. Also recognise your own mortality. They are the future, not you.

J

[Ozyhibby]

How about ask them to talk to their grandchildren and listen to what they have to say. Also recognise your own mortality. They are the future, not you.

J

That’s not going to do it. That generation is wedded to the union. They believe in it. There is nothing wrong with that. I have always believed that the best case for the union is if you feel British first and foremost. I think that’s a good reason to be a no voter.
All the other reasons are a bit of a nonsense. The economy could either be better or worse after independence but that will be down to the choices we make. Being independent and making your own decisions is more important. Especially now that we see democracy being taken away.


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[Mixu62]

Haven't read the whole of this thread so don't know if this has been covered, but I was looking at some of the numbers recently. The No vote won last time, by 1.8M to 1.4M. A gap of 400,000 votes. A quick google search told me there are approx 209000 EU citizens in Scotland, who would of course have been more likely to vote No last time given what they were told about staying in the Union being the only path to ensuring EU membership. Now I'm no mathematician, but you subtract 200k from 1.8M and add it to 1.4M and it's 50/50. Now obviously it's not as clear cut as that, not all of them will be eligible to vote but those who are will be more motivated to do so given what's at stake, so I'd expect the turnout in this group to be higher than average.

Add in the changes in demographics that have been covered. However, sadly this also may not be as clear cut as first glance suggests. While it's true that it was the over 65's who voted overwhelmingly No, and that you'd expect that demographic to have a higher mortality rate (being replaced with 6 years of school leavers who are proportionately more likely to be Yessers) it's also true that it was lower socio-economic area's that voted Yes (Source - The Demographics of Independence - The Common Weal). It's also sadly true that lower socio-economic status has a large impact on life expectancy, so (again sadly, and in a wealthy country, disgracefully) the mortality rate among <65 year old Yesers is probably similar to the >65 No's.

In short, it's probably still 50/50, though maybe 50.01/49.99. Given that the Yes campaign started at about 30% in polls leading up to the referendum in 2014 and ended up at almost 45%, I think Yes will have the numbers this time.

[ACLeith]

The age breakdown is mental (excluding DKs),


Under 50s

Yes: 66%
No: 34%

Under 65s

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

Over 65s

Yes: 25%
No: 75%




It's only a matter of time based on that, but is there anything the SNP / Yes campaign can do to turn some of that 75% of over 65s to Yes for a referendum in the next 1 to 2 years?

What's the source for these stats? Not disputing them, as they seem right, but were they from the actual poll or an opinion poll? There's nothing wrong with being in a minority and standing up for what you believe in, so happy to be part of the 25%!

With my friends in the same age bracket, I find it is roughly 50/50. I do sense a shift towards "yes" though, the reason being Brexit and Johnston. It would be easy, but a mistake IMO, to rush things at this stage through anger, 25 years after we achieve independence it won't have mattered that we waited say a year for the tide to have swung significantly.

[lapsedhibee]

Haven't read the whole of this thread so don't know if this has been covered, but I was looking at some of the numbers recently. The No vote won last time, by 1.8M to 1.4M. A gap of 400,000 votes. A quick google search told me there are approx 209000 EU citizens in Scotland, who would of course have been more likely to vote No last time given what they were told about staying in the Union being the only path to ensuring EU membership. Now I'm no mathematician, but you subtract 200k from 1.8M and add it to 1.4M and it's 50/50. Now obviously it's not as clear cut as that, not all of them will be eligible to vote but those who are will be more motivated to do so given what's at stake, so I'd expect the turnout in this group to be higher than average.

Add in the changes in demographics that have been covered. However, sadly this also may not be as clear cut as first glance suggests. While it's true that it was the over 65's who voted overwhelmingly No, and that you'd expect that demographic to have a higher mortality rate (being replaced with 6 years of school leavers who are proportionately more likely to be Yessers) it's also true that it was lower socio-economic area's that voted Yes (Source - The Demographics of Independence - The Common Weal). It's also sadly true that lower socio-economic status has a large impact on life expectancy, so (again sadly, and in a wealthy country, disgracefully) the mortality rate among <65 year old Yesers is probably similar to the >65 No's.

In short, it's probably still 50/50, though maybe 50.01/49.99. Given that the Yes campaign started at about 30% in polls leading up to the referendum in 2014 and ended up at almost 45%, I think Yes will have the numbers this time.

This suggestion is aired quite a lot - that because there was a surge for a particular faction in a previous vote, there will be a similar surge in the next vote. The dafter elements of the Labour Party, like Burgon, were spouting it often in the run up to the GE. Complete nonsense!

[SHODAN]

The age breakdown is mental (excluding DKs),


Under 50s

Yes: 66%
No: 34%

Under 65s

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

Over 65s

Yes: 25%
No: 75%




It's only a matter of time based on that, but is there anything the SNP / Yes campaign can do to turn some of that 75% of over 65s to Yes for a referendum in the next 1 to 2 years?

It really is a "once in a generation" thing because in a generation's time it'll be something like 65% Yes. I suspect by then the UK government will have forced through some Spain-style "secession is illegal" law by then.

[StevieC]

Given that the Yes campaign started at about 30% in polls leading up to the referendum in 2014 and ended up at almost 45%, I think Yes will have the numbers this time.

I’m not so sure that you can count on that level of change unless you can find out why there was such a large shift.

I suspect that there would have been very few that had given much thought to Independence, and therefore happy enough with the status quo, but would have formed an alternative opinion as they became more engaged in the campaigns. I don’t think there will be any where near that level of swing second time around, a lot more people will already be entrenched in their views.

[grunt]

What's the source for these stats? Not disputing them, as they seem right, but were they from the actual poll or an opinion poll?.
Yes they’re from the YouGov poll linked above.

[Bristolhibby]

This suggestion is aired quite a lot - that because there was a late surge for a particular faction in a previous vote, there will be a similar surge in the next vote. The dafter elements of the Labour Party, like Burgon, were spouting it often in the run up to the GE. Complete nonsense!

It wasn’t a surge, it was a slow build up over the life of the campaign. Peaking a couple of days before the referendum. That then prompted the vow.

J

[lapsedhibee]

It wasn’t a surge, it was a slow build up over the life of the campaign. Peaking a couple of days before the referendum. That then prompted the vow.

J
Fair enough. Have removed the "late" from my post. Still, there is no justification imo for relying on there being a similar uptick in a future period of campaigning.

[HibernianJK]

Decent speech from Sturgeon. Talking about making a real go at undecided voters. As a strong Yes voter, no matter when an Indyref vote is held I would vote yes, as I’m sure the vast majority would. However I wonder if striking a deal depending on the outcome of Holyrood next year e.g. SNP majority, with Westminster, and a vote being dependant on that, would be the best way to secure a legal binding vote. I think the Yes movement will only grow stronger over the next year and a vote in 2021 makes more sense to me.

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m not so sure that you can count on that level of change unless you can find out why there was such a large shift.

I suspect that there would have been very few that had given much thought to Independence, and therefore happy enough with the status quo, but would have formed an alternative opinion as they became more engaged in the campaigns. I don’t think there will be any where near that level of swing second time around, a lot more people will already be entrenched in their views.

I think you're spot on. Indyref1 turned independence from a fringe consideration that nobody really thought would ever happen to a concrete, here and now possibility. That forced people to have a good think and make their minds up. Between then and now, independence has remained as the pre-eminent issue in Scottish politics, so it's not as if people have stopped thinking about it. There has been a small but definite shift to Yes in the last year as Brexit has become an inevitability. Hopefully that movement will continue but I'd be very surprised if there was anything you could describe as a "surge".

[heretoday]

That’s not going to do it. That generation is wedded to the union. They believe in it. There is nothing wrong with that. I have always believed that the best case for the union is if you feel British first and foremost. I think that’s a good reason to be a no voter.
All the other reasons are a bit of a nonsense. The economy could either be better or worse after independence but that will be down to the choices we make. Being independent and making your own decisions is more important. Especially now that we see democracy being taken away.


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Yup, it's a sentimental thing. When I'm walking the Sussex Downs or along the White Cliffs, I feel I'm in my own country - just as I do when I'm in the Highlands, where my family is originally from.

If Indy happens, so be it. I won't starve but I will be sad.

[weecounty hibby]

That’s not going to do it. That generation is wedded to the union. They believe in it. There is nothing wrong with that. I have always believed that the best case for the union is if you feel British first and foremost. I think that’s a good reason to be a no voter.
All the other reasons are a bit of a nonsense. The economy could either be better or worse after independence but that will be down to the choices we make. Being independent and making your own decisions is more important. Especially now that we see democracy being taken away.


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That is so true. My mum is 76 and has lung cancer that she is undergoing treatment for. To put it bluntly she doesn't really have a future to speak of. I have spoken to her about an indyref2 vote and how it's about the future of her grandkids. Still would vote no. Even if she was guaranteed to be cured in an independent Scotland she would still vote no.

[lapsedhibee]

Decent speech from Sturgeon. Talking about making a real go at undecided voters. As a strong Yes voter, no matter when an Indyref vote is held I would vote yes, as I’m sure the vast majority would. However I wonder if striking a deal depending on the outcome of Holyrood next year e.g. SNP majority, with Westminster, and a vote being dependant on that, would be the best way to secure a legal binding vote. I think the Yes movement will only grow stronger over the next year and a vote in 2021 makes more sense to me.

Think Cummings/Johnson has already ruled out anything of the sort. Persisting with the Once In A Generation mantra instead.

[Ozyhibby]

That is so true. My mum is 76 and has lung cancer that she is undergoing treatment for. To put it bluntly she doesn't really have a future to speak of. I have spoken to her about an indyref2 vote and how it's about the future of her grandkids. Still would vote no. Even if she was guaranteed to be cured in an independent Scotland she would still vote no.

My mate is a unionist and he has always just said that he just feels British and he’s happy with that. He never offers up any economic arguments or make claims about us all living in poverty if we become independent. He know he will be fine either way. His is a position I can totally respect.


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[WeeRussell]

Yup, it's a sentimental thing. When I'm walking the Sussex Downs or along the White Cliffs, I feel I'm in my own country - just as I do when I'm in the Highlands, where my family is originally from.

If Indy happens, so be it. I won't starve but I will be sad.

And yet so often, so many of us are scoffed at/dismissed for using the same (but opposite) sentimental notion as a want for independence... even though it's rarely the independence supporter who gives that as a reason.

I do understand your point of view though. As it happens to be the opposite as to how I feel when it comes to 'home' sentiment. Albeit I feel there are (now more than ever) more pressing and political reasons for Scottish independence.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure if everyone is aware that the Rev is closing Wings for a while because he doesn't agree with the first minister.

Can only be a good thing.

[weecounty hibby]

Not sure if everyone is aware that the Rev is closing Wings for a while because he doesn't agree with the first minister.

Can only be a good thing.

Yip, posted that on Twitter. Now more than ever we need everyone pulling in the same direction. It is closer than it ever has been and him being a loose cannon is not good. We need to be winning the hearts and minds of the no voters not berating them or arguing with like minded folk

[Just Alf]

Yip, posted that on Twitter. Now more than ever we need everyone pulling in the same direction. It is closer than it ever has been and him being a loose cannon is not good. We need to be winning the hearts and minds of the no voters not berating them or arguing with like minded folkA bit bitter/sweet for me, the site was good at linking to background data on independence but his front end narrative could be a bit looney at times (I'm being polite).



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[Ozyhibby]

Yip, posted that on Twitter. Now more than ever we need everyone pulling in the same direction. It is closer than it ever has been and him being a loose cannon is not good. We need to be winning the hearts and minds of the no voters not berating them or arguing with like minded folk

Definite loose canon. He’s not going to win over those soft no voters that need to be won over next time out.


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[The Harp Awakes]

The age breakdown is mental (excluding DKs),


Under 50s

Yes: 66%
No: 34%

Under 65s

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

Over 65s

Yes: 25%
No: 75%




It's only a matter of time based on that, but is there anything the SNP / Yes campaign can do to turn some of that 75% of over 65s to Yes for a referendum in the next 1 to 2 years?

The older you get, the more resistant you get to change. However, the key fact is the over 65s have lived most of their lives at a time without a Scottish Government and total Westminster rule. They lived in days when the educational system restricted Scottish history being taught in schools.

The demographics will be be more and more in favour of Yes as time goes by. As Tam Dalyell said 30 years ago, devolution is a motorway to independence without an exit. He was correct.

[Ozyhibby]

The older you get, the more resistant you get to change. However, the key fact is the over 65s have lived most of their lives at a time without a Scottish Government and total Westminster rule. They lived in days when the educational system restricted Scottish history being taught in schools.

The demographics will be be more and more in favour of Yes as time goes by. As Tam Dalyell said 30 years ago, devolution is a motorway to independence without an exit. He was correct.

The curriculum nowadays is very much taught from a Scottish perspective in every subject. That will make a big difference over time and is no accident. Ozyhibby jnr has already studied the wars of independence and he’s only 2nd year at high school. I can’t remember them even being mentioned when I was at school.


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[StevieC]

The curriculum nowadays is very much taught from a Scottish perspective in every subject. That will make a big difference over time and is no accident. Ozyhibby jnr has already studied the wars of independence and he’s only 2nd year at high school. I can’t remember them even being mentioned when I was at school.

I can remember doing the American war of independence at school, can’t remember much in the way of Scottish history.

[allmodcons]

Yip, posted that on Twitter. Now more than ever we need everyone pulling in the same direction. It is closer than it ever has been and him being a loose cannon is not good. We need to be winning the hearts and minds of the no voters not berating them or arguing with like minded folk


Definite loose canon. He’s not going to win over those soft no voters that need to be won over next time out.


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He was very good during the 2014 referendum but has a ridiculously over inflated opinion of his contribution then and of himself in general.

In the last year or so he has become a complete liability. His site is infested with 150 or so posters you simply do not like the fact that the SNP are the main vehicle for Independence. They are, for me, the worst excesses of the Independence movement.

I am glad he's taking a holiday with the money fundraised from his little band of followers and, to be frank, hope he does not come back.

[Hibrandenburg]

I can remember doing the American war of independence at school, can’t remember much in the way of Scottish history.

We did it at Wallyford Primary and I can remember they showed us Kidnapped starring Michael Caine. It was set in the aftermath of Culloden. I found it quite traumatic as an 11 year old and can only imagine it was extracurricular.

[JeMeSouviens]

Definite loose canon. He’s not going to win over those soft no voters that need to be won over next time out.


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He always had some dodgy views (Hillsborough) but he’s completely lost it over the gender recognition thing. And Kezia Dugdale, there’s audio he actually posted himself of an interview he did with the Times journo Kenny Farqhuarson where he sounds like he should be locked up tout de suite for everyone’s safety!

[CloudSquall]

Malcolm Chisholm pretty much confirming he's switching to yes,

https://mobile.twitter.com/MalcolmChishol1/status/1223547451895951361

[Ozyhibby]

Malcolm Chisholm pretty much confirming he's switching to yes,

https://mobile.twitter.com/MalcolmChishol1/status/1223547451895951361

I totally agree with Sturgeon that patience is the way forward here. The lack of talent on the unionist side of the argument is getting further eroded with every passing election.
Labour now have only one MP. The Tories are bout to be led by Jackson Carlaw. The less said about Willie Rennie the better.
Next years Scottish election is very likely to be fought on the independence issue and that is very likely to see the SNP return with 2011 levels of support. Possibly higher if we are having to deal with a hard brexit.
There won’t be a better together 2 because what’s left of the Labour Party won’t join so there will be 2, maybe 3 unionist campaigns run by very poor leaders. It’s possible that they have to bring in politicians from England to help carry the load.
The next campaign will be very different from 2014.



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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200201/1fb71b2fc9144370197c09135cef8d26.jpg


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[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200201/1fb71b2fc9144370197c09135cef8d26.jpg


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They're starting to fall in behind the FM.

Polls shifting, unions getting onboard, many labour party members saying they'll vote yes, next time.

It's coming yet. 👍

[The Harp Awakes]

They're starting to fall in behind the FM.

Polls shifting, unions getting onboard, many labour party members saying they'll vote yes, next time.

It's coming yet. 👍

It's all about momentum. We need to keep it going and bide our time. It's within our grasp if we're patient. The FM is playing a blinder.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51342714?__twitter_impression=true

The attitude of other European countries in the next indyref will be very different I think.


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[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51342714?__twitter_impression=true

The attitude of other European countries in the next indyref will be very different I think.


And was a nice touch that the EU Commission building in Brussels projected "Europe [Heart] Scotland" on to itself on Friday night.

[HiBremian]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51342714?__twitter_impression=true

The attitude of other European countries in the next indyref will be very different I think.


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The irony is that Scottish membership of the EU whilst the rUK was still a member would have easily resolved the border issue. With the UK now out it gets more complicated. On the other hand, by the time of independence the solution will be “oven ready” due to the need to resolve the Irish situation. Unless Johnson wants heavily manned controls between Northern Ireland and the mainland, a relatively open border solution for goods will need to be found. Scotland should await developments re Ireland. In fact, on the level of free movement of people the template is already in place:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/08/british-irish-deal-guarantee-rights-citizens-after-brexit

[GlesgaeHibby]

It's all about momentum. We need to keep it going and bide our time. It's within our grasp if we're patient. The FM is playing a blinder.

It is, and I think most people are fully aware that Indyref2 won't be this year.

Holding it after the 2021 elections will follow over a year of the real Brexit negotiations, which I can only see building further support for Yes.

[makaveli1875]

And was a nice touch that the EU Commission building in Brussels projected "Europe [Heart] Scotland" on to itself on Friday night.

It was enough to bring a tear to a glass eye that.

[lapsedhibee]

It was enough to bring a tear to a glass eye that.

It's another indicator of how acceptable, inside and outside its borders, the idea of Scotland making its own way has become.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/109561/boris-johnson-set-launch-%C2%A35m-anti-independence-ad-blitz-scotland

[makaveli1875]

It's another indicator of how acceptable, inside and outside its borders, the idea of Scotland making its own way has become.

They're just stirring **** up. They didn't put on any pretty light shows for the Catalans when they were being baton charged by the Spanish police not so long ago

[lapsedhibee]

They're just stirring **** up. They didn't put on any pretty light shows for the Catalans when they were being baton charged by the Spanish police not so long ago

You're aware that Spain's in the EU and the UK isn't?

[grunt]

And was a nice touch that the EU Commission building in Brussels projected "Europe [Heart] Scotland" on to itself on Friday night.I'm fairly certain that was not the action of the EU Commission. They'd be hauled across the courts if they got involved in another country's politics. I'm guessing it was an SNP stunt, but a good one nonetheless.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm fairly certain that was not the action of the EU Commission. They'd be hauled across the courts if they got involved in another country's politics. I'm guessing it was an SNP stunt, but a good one nonetheless.

Probably :agree:

[grunt]

Probably :agree:Specially when it echoes this ad put out by SNP on Friday


https://twitter.com/i/status/1223337863279972357

[lapsedhibee]

Specially when it echoes this ad put out by SNP on Friday


https://twitter.com/i/status/1223337863279972357

Ah, cleanish beaches. When will we see their likes again?

[Ozyhibby]

Ah, cleanish beaches. When will we see their likes again?

Yip, big business will be looking forward to all those pesky EU regulations going away.


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[WeeRussell]

You're aware that Spain's in the EU and the UK isn't?

😂😂😂

[CloudSquall]

And was a nice touch that the EU Commission building in Brussels projected "Europe [Heart] Scotland" on to itself on Friday night.

I was reading about this on Twitter, and it appears it was the Scottish Government that paid for that.

Someone at the Commission confirmed they wouldn't do it in order to avoid getting involved in the internal politics of a third party state.

As an indy supporter, it's absolute cringe.

[weecounty hibby]

I don't see it as cringe at all. Whatever that actually means. Very good piece of PR seen all over Europe and if you do look at Twitter then it has been received positively all across the continent. To get an independent Scotland we need to get the no/remain voters on side. When they see how welcome Scotland will be across Europe that is a great start. Donald Tusks comments today are also very welcome. England is going to be an isolated country in the future with no UK as Scotland gains independence, Ireland is unified and support for Welsh independence rising, no EU support either.

[JeMeSouviens]

Donald Tusk: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/02/donald-tusk-eu-would-be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin

[Slavers]

I don't see it as cringe at all. Whatever that actually means. Very good piece of PR seen all over Europe and if you do look at Twitter then it has been received positively all across the continent. To get an independent Scotland we need to get the no/remain voters on side. When they see how welcome Scotland will be across Europe that is a great start. Donald Tusks comments today are also very welcome. England is going to be an isolated country in the future with no UK as Scotland gains independence, Ireland is unified and support for Welsh independence rising, no EU support either.

A good piece of PR? The SNP stage a stunt and lie to the people of Scotland saying the EU had shone the light on their building but in fact it was a stunt paid for by the SNP.

If they are willing to lie about something like this I'd imagine the SNP will tell any lie they can to get independence.

[weecounty hibby]

A good piece of PR? The SNP stage a stunt and lie to the people of Scotland saying the EU had shone the light on their building but in fact it was a stunt paid for by the SNP.

If they are willing to lie about something like this I'd imagine the SNP will tell any lie they can to get independence.

Wow, just wow. You want to talk about lies. Let's start with the £350m per week to the NHS. Or that voting no is the only way to stay in the EU. Both proven to be absolute garbage and in the case of the £350m, the very day after the referendum. As long as you are happy that the likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg and their like are making millions out of their lies though.
I haven't seen anywhere that the Scottish government claimed anywhere that it was done by the European parliament either.

[grunt]

A good piece of PR? The SNP stage a stunt and lie to the people of Scotland saying the EU had shone the light on their building but in fact it was a stunt paid for by the SNP.

If they are willing to lie about something like this I'd imagine the SNP will tell any lie they can to get independence.This is flipping hilarious.

[jonty]

Hilarious.
EU do it and its a message
SNP do it and its a stunt.

Scotland does love the EU. fact.

[Slavers]

Hilarious.
EU do it and its a message
SNP do it and its a stunt.

Scotland does love the EU. fact.

You are misunderstanding what's happened.

The SNP paid for a light to shine on the EU office in Brussels the light said - EU loves Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon then tweets looks like the EU have left a light on but the reality is the EU had no part in this stunt. It was paid for and organised by the SNP.

I could understand the SNP saying Scotland loves the EU but to set up an event like this then try and pass it of as the work of the EU expressing their love fir Scotland then it is shameful.

[lapsedhibee]

You are misunderstanding what's happened.

The SNP paid for a light to shine on the EU office in Brussels the light said - EU loves Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon then tweets looks like the EU have left a light on but the reality is the EU had no part in this stunt. It was paid for and organised by the SNP.

I could understand the SNP saying Scotland loves the EU but to set up an event like this then try and pass it of as the work of the EU expressing their love fir Scotland then it is shameful.
Good you could understand that, as that's what it did say.

[lapsedhibee]

Donald Tusk: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/02/donald-tusk-eu-would-be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin

Very Un-European of Tusk, according to someone with his finger on the pulse of what Europeanism's all about (https://politicshome.com/news/uk/uk-regions/scotland/news/109566/dominic-raab-slams-donald-tusk-over-un-european-and) :faf:

[Slavers]

Good you could understand that, as that's what it did say.

Ok fair enough I concede defeat on this.

[jonty]

You are misunderstanding what's happened.

The SNP paid for a light to shine on the EU office in Brussels the light said - EU loves Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon then tweets looks like the EU have left a light on but the reality is the EU had no part in this stunt. It was paid for and organised by the SNP.

I could understand the SNP saying Scotland loves the EU but to set up an event like this then try and pass it of as the work of the EU expressing their love fir Scotland then it is shameful.

I'm very well aware of whats happening, thanks. Its called perspective.
The same image was made on Portobello beach.

You chose to read it down and across.
I read it across and down.

'Scotland Loves Europe Sand Art'
https://twitter.com/i/status/1223337863279972357

[Mon Dieu4]

Nicola Sturgeon then tweets looks like the EU have left a light on but the reality is the EU had no part in this stunt. It was paid for and organised by the SNP.



Look at the picture again, top right hand corner