Just an idea

[McKenzie]

As a 19 year old football coach, I have been reading a lot about the famous Ajax academy and system lately I got to wondering whether or not this was something that could be replicated at Hibs. A way of playing was established many years ago but has been evolved to suit the manager at the time. The way in which they set up not only their first team, but every other team below that. The same system and the same style are used from the day the players join Ajax until the day they leave. This allows the players to learn the system and adapt to it at a younger age. This way of playing, total football, has been replicated by many teams across the globe – most notably Barcelona – and tweaked slightly to fit the club. It doesn’t even need to be total football that I would like to see at Hibs, just a positive passing game. Something which allows players to express themselves on the pitch, of course this requires confidence which is why the same system is used throughout the ages. Most young, up and coming managers favour this approach (just look at Rodgers, Martinez, Laudrup for some positive examples). It only takes a bit of hard work and research for Hibs to find someone to fit the bill.
Moving on to the youth setup - There is a required number of youth players that are promoted to the first team every year, which limits the spending they need to do recruiting new players. Not only does this make sense on a financial perspective but fans are more likely to take to home grown, local players than a foreign journeyman who couldn’t care about the club. You only have to look at how many Ajax academy graduates have and continue to play across Europe to see how much of a success this has been. If East Mains is all it is cracked up to be, the combination of good quality coaching and a good recruitment process could prove fruitful for Hibs in the future. The focus at young ages is more on the technical development of the players, rather than the team winning matches. I feel this is the problem at grass roots level in Scotland, the emphasis being far more on winning than the developing of players. If you can develop players, the wins will start coming as a result.
Of course, if Hibs were to go with this it would be on a far smaller scale than the Dutch giants. But the general idea of having a generic system for every Hibs team – one of free flowing attacking football - is something that I believe many supporters long to see. Couple that with the introduction of more academy graduates, capable of playing the “Hibs way” would see far more support for the team, rather than the constant abuse and grumbling at players which seems to be the norm.
Any thoughts/criticisms would also be appreciated.

[Stonewall]

I remember Mowbray saying he was implementing those principals throughout the club during his time here.

Problem is that we change managers so often it's impossible to establish a playing philosophy and you could end up with all teams playing the same way other than the top team who will continue to change style every 18 months along with most of the players and the manager.

[TheFamous1875]

A good point though in regards to the style changing every 18 months due to a change of management of the first team is that if there was a specific style implemented throughout youth level, any good first team manager worth his salt would see that his youngsters were flourishing from having learned this style over the years and not change it for the first team, as it would be the most effective way to get the best out of his players.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Thecat23]

I remember Mowbray saying he was implementing those principals throughout the club during his time here.

Problem is that we change managers so often it's impossible to establish a playing philosophy and you could end up with all teams playing the same way other than the top team who will continue to change style every 18 months along with most of the players and the manager.

That's why getting a manager who will openly state Hibs will play the ball on the deck like Mowbray did and Collins to an extent. Not like Pat where he said it's not just about the football when he arrived. Granted he needed grit and we needed wins but since then nothing has changed.

We need our next manager to tell us what his plan is and how he will implement that into the park. Then every manager that arrives must play it the right way or they simply won't get the job. Ajax have done this for years it's not hard.

[Aldo]

That's why getting a manager who will openly state Hibs will play the ball on the deck like Mowbray did and Collins to an extent. Not like Pat where he said it's not just about the football when he arrived. Granted he needed grit and we needed wins but since then nothing has changed. We need our next manager to tell us what his plan is and how he will implement that into the park. Then every manager that arrives must play it the right way or they simply won't get the job. Ajax have done this for years it's not hard.

Question.... If Mowbrays tenure at Boro came to an end this season would you take him back.

He installed a few good things at the club and had relative success. Was that him or did he get a lucky break with the golden generation.

Fwiw I would take him back.

[bingo70]

Question.... If Mowbrays tenure at Boro came to an end this season would you take him back.

He installed a few good things at the club and had relative success. Was that him or did he get a lucky break with the golden generation.

Fwiw I would take him back.

I loved Mowbray but he was fortunate in the young players he had coming through, I don't want to talk down what he did at the club as he deserves a huge amount of credit for playing them the right way and getting the most out of the young players but I'm not sure it'd work with the current squad.

I think what the op is getting at is installing a philosophy at the club that will remain regardless of the manager rather than hoping to appoint someone that 'might' get it right but could also be a flash in the pan.

[blackpoolhibs]

Maybe this philosophy is in this 5 year plan? For what its worth, it should be what we do, it should be our way too but its clearly not now.

Mowbray, i'd take him back in a flash, at least when we lost we had some enjoyment during the game.

And when we won and we did win a lot more then, it was done with style and some terrific football.

[TRC]

i think this goes back to the question of not so much having a manager/coach stay for a long time but having football people at the very top of the club. Something we all know RP is not. Tin hat time but I've always thought Mowbray under achieved with the squad he had and he hasn't really done anything else since. if we had, had someone that was a better manager then who knows how far that squad could of gone.

[Thecat23]

Question.... If Mowbrays tenure at Boro came to an end this season would you take him back.

He installed a few good things at the club and had relative success. Was that him or did he get a lucky break with the golden generation.

Fwiw I would take him back.

Good question. He's not done that well since leaving really. Like you say was it he had a great group of players? The way I see it you can have a great group of players but you still have to install your vision of how you want to play. He did this and I would take him back if I'm honest. He did make a few dodgy signings though.

[Ozyhibby]

A manager should be appointed to fit the system not the other way around. The three examples in the OP are all former Swansea managers. This is no coincidence. The board at Swansea set about to find a manager who would play this system as they had no money for star players. Both Rodgers and Martinez were first time managers. Obviously they have more cash now so they have taken Laudrop from Spanish football where this type of football is the norm.
We could do worse than to try emulate what Swansea have done in the last ten years.
Great op.

[Aldo]

A manager should be appointed to fit the system not the other way around. The three examples in the OP are all former Swansea managers. This is no coincidence. The board at Swansea set about to find a manager who would play this system as they had no money for star players. Both Rodgers and Martinez were first time managers. Obviously they have more cash now so they have taken Laudrop from Spanish football where this type of football is the norm. We could do worse than to try emulate what Swansea have done in the last ten years. Great op.

Exactly I posted something similar in the AGM thread. I really also think all the age groups including the first team should be playing the same kind of football (on the deck) thus allowing the move to 1st team easier.

[WestEndHibee]

A manager should be appointed to fit the system not the other way around. The three examples in the OP are all former Swansea managers. This is no coincidence. The board at Swansea set about to find a manager who would play this system as they had no money for star players. Both Rodgers and Martinez were first time managers. Obviously they have more cash now so they have taken Laudrop from Spanish football where this type of football is the norm.
We could do worse than to try emulate what Swansea have done in the last ten years.
Great op.

This is my opinion exactly. From first team downwards the club should have a set main formation plus a few backups for other situations. ALL players should learn how their position works within the formation to allow easy progression from one age group to the next, so if the first team has two right wingers injured then it can easily call up the youth right winger and he will know the tactics and style like the back of his hand before he's made the step up. The manager should be less important than the framework and should be appointed due to his style matching with the clubs. It would take a few years to get running but is much better than letting each new manager build from the start.

FWIW I think we couldn't have done this after calderwood and needed someone to steady the ship, as pat has done. If we can finish top 5 or 4 then I feel it's time for both club and manager to part ways and for us to find a young manager with a vision similar to the above. Really hibs should constantly have a a shortlist of people they think fit with this philosophy to allow focused managerial searches. Similar to a shortlist of players.

[Brightside]

Exactly I posted something similar in the AGM thread. I really also think all the age groups including the first team should be playing the same kind of football (on the deck) thus allowing the move to 1st team easier.

All spot on. The problem is that we still have an old fashioned influence in youth football and a win at all costs mentality is youth coaching. It'll be at least one more generation until that changes despite the efforts of many. When you see a P4 school football team turn up for a games of 4s and the coach puts one of them as a full time goalie, then constaantly shouts at his team to shoot you know we have no chance. Personally i'd stop all school football teams at Primary school level, then at 11+ they must be coached by those that have gone through the new SFA coaching classes.

[Ozyhibby]

All spot on. The problem is that we still have an old fashioned influence in youth football and a win at all costs mentality is youth coaching. It'll be at least one more generation until that changes despite the efforts of many. When you see a P4 school football team turn up for a games of 4s and the coach puts one of them as a full time goalie, then constaantly shouts at his team to shoot you know we have no chance. Personally i'd stop all school football teams at Primary school level, then at 11+ they must be coached by those that have gone through the new SFA coaching classes.

I agree that we need to improve the quality of the coaches but we can't just not coach kids until the age of 11.
The schools should be making sure that all their coaches do their SFA courses in the same way the clubs do.

[Aldo]

All spot on. The problem is that we still have an old fashioned influence in youth football and a win at all costs mentality is youth coaching. It'll be at least one more generation until that changes despite the efforts of many. When you see a P4 school football team turn up for a games of 4s and the coach puts one of them as a full time goalie, then constaantly shouts at his team to shoot you know we have no chance. Personally i'd stop all school football teams at Primary school level, then at 11+ they must be coached by those that have gone through the new SFA coaching classes.

From what I read in here and have heard through friends Jim McDanugh (spl) is doing an excellent job and has the younger teams playing exciting passing football. This is an absolute must IMHO and should make the transition to first team football (if they make it) easier. A player should be able to slot into the first team and play a position they have played at say U20 level.

This won't happen at the moment cos the first team don't really have a style of play??

I know this is a lot to ask but is this really hard to do?

[The Modfather]

To have a philosophy and ethos like this running throughout the club would require us getting rid of Petrie.

[Andy74]

From what I read in here and have heard through friends Jim McDanugh (spl) is doing an excellent job and has the younger teams playing exciting passing football. This is an absolute must IMHO and should make the transition to first team football (if they make it) easier. A player should be able to slot into the first team and play a position they have played at say U20 level.

This won't happen at the moment cos the first team don't really have a style of play??

I know this is a lot to ask but is this really hard to do?

I've seen a lot of the under 20 teams this year and I don't think the style is too different.

At that level though, the game is naturally a bit more open. They are playing against guys their own age, defending is not as sophisticated and its easier for forward and midfield players to be naturally exhubarent than it is for defenders to be as effective and knowledgeable about their jobs and positions.

The transition is difficult because they go from playing the best players at their own age to the ones who have been at the very best of a range of 10 to 15 years, and probably from a wider geography.

I'd spoken to Scott Lindsay previously about building a style from the bottom up but whilst he thought that was a great theory the problem is that the prioroty is the first team and the maanger atr the time does what he needs to do to try and win games at that level, and quick, because people aren't interested in giving time to build the whole club.

He also thought that if you placed someone else above the overall football department who would try and control the academy and the first team approach that the maanger would feel he was not being allowed to do his job in the short term.

They are fair points about the reality of it and how you would implement it.

[SmithyHibee]

As a 19 year old football coach, I have been reading a lot about the famous Ajax academy and system lately I got to wondering whether or not this was something that could be replicated at Hibs. A way of playing was established many years ago but has been evolved to suit the manager at the time. The way in which they set up not only their first team, but every other team below that. The same system and the same style are used from the day the players join Ajax until the day they leave. This allows the players to learn the system and adapt to it at a younger age. This way of playing, total football, has been replicated by many teams across the globe – most notably Barcelona – and tweaked slightly to fit the club. It doesn’t even need to be total football that I would like to see at Hibs, just a positive passing game. Something which allows players to express themselves on the pitch, of course this requires confidence which is why the same system is used throughout the ages. Most young, up and coming managers favour this approach (just look at Rodgers, Martinez, Laudrup for some positive examples). It only takes a bit of hard work and research for Hibs to find someone to fit the bill.
Moving on to the youth setup - There is a required number of youth players that are promoted to the first team every year, which limits the spending they need to do recruiting new players. Not only does this make sense on a financial perspective but fans are more likely to take to home grown, local players than a foreign journeyman who couldn’t care about the club. You only have to look at how many Ajax academy graduates have and continue to play across Europe to see how much of a success this has been. If East Mains is all it is cracked up to be, the combination of good quality coaching and a good recruitment process could prove fruitful for Hibs in the future. The focus at young ages is more on the technical development of the players, rather than the team winning matches. I feel this is the problem at grass roots level in Scotland, the emphasis being far more on winning than the developing of players. If you can develop players, the wins will start coming as a result.
Of course, if Hibs were to go with this it would be on a far smaller scale than the Dutch giants. But the general idea of having a generic system for every Hibs team – one of free flowing attacking football - is something that I believe many supporters long to see. Couple that with the introduction of more academy graduates, capable of playing the “Hibs way” would see far more support for the team, rather than the constant abuse and grumbling at players which seems to be the norm.
Any thoughts/criticisms would also be appreciated.


Pretty sure this was posted on here before but you might be interested in this http://www.ecaeurope.com/Research/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies.pdf

[Brightside]

I agree that we need to improve the quality of the coaches but we can't just not coach kids until the age of 11.
The schools should be making sure that all their coaches do their SFA courses in the same way the clubs do.

Most school teams are coached by parents as teachers wont do after school work for free. I agree that kids should be playing football but it should all be about learning skills and basic ball control until later. You do not get that level of coaching in the majority of schools as its really just parents helping out. Ive seen a lot of these P4 players from different schools and loads of them look like they've never seen a football in their life. (many of them look like they are never far from the fridge!) Then they are just chucked straight into games and trying to score goals....its an ancient style of football education.

[ancient hibee]

To have a philosophy and ethos like this running throughout the club would require us getting rid of Petrie.


That's really complete tosh.Do you really believe that Petrie doesan't want the club to bring through its own players?Petrie.Fenlon and the Academy Head have a weekly meeting.Fenlon says that the trouble is that the level of young player recruited in the last 3/4 years is very poor and is being addressed.

[Itsnoteasy]

If that is the case should the head of the academy not be getting the heave. Or realise that the kids they have brought in aren't up to it and move them on asap. Or are they tied into contracts and not that easy to show these youngsters the door


That's really complete tosh.Do you really believe that Petrie doesan't want the club to bring through its own players?Petrie.Fenlon and the Academy Head have a weekly meeting.Fenlon says that the trouble is that the level of young player recruited in the last 3/4 years is very poor and is being addressed.

[eastterrace]

i think this goes back to the question of not so much having a manager/coach stay for a long time but having football people at the very top of the club. Something we all know RP is not. Tin hat time but I've always thought Mowbray under achieved with the squad he had and he hasn't really done anything else since. if we had, had someone that was a better manager then who knows how far that squad could of gone.
mowbray problem was he never sorted the goalkeeping, and collins as well that was there downfall, the amount of games we lost due to zibby or makalambay or mcneil cocking up

[The Modfather]

That's really complete tosh.Do you really believe that Petrie doesan't want the club to bring through its own players?Petrie.Fenlon and the Academy Head have a weekly meeting.Fenlon says that the trouble is that the level of young player recruited in the last 3/4 years is very poor and is being addressed.

What Petrie wants and what he can deliver are two separate things.

Under his watch we've now had to revamp scouting, training, youth team recruitment and not to forget addressing a poisonous culture within the club. If things don't change his own words could become very fitting before long, "unworkable legacy".

[Andy74]

What Petrie wants and what he can deliver are two separate things.

Under his watch we've now had to revamp scouting, training, youth team recruitment and not to forget addressing a poisonous culture within the club. If things don't change his own words could become very fitting before long, "unworkable legacy".

Those are footballing matters though and no one would want the Chairman involved in that would we?

Yes those things are being addressed but most folk want the guy addressing them to be sacked.

[The Modfather]

Those are footballing matters though and no one would want the Chairman involved in that would we?

Yes those things are being addressed but most folk want the guy addressing them to be sacked.

It was revealed last night that he chairs the academy meetings which I've no idea why. It's naive not to think he's not had/has a hand in everything that's gone on the last 6 years wether a chairman should or shouldn't be involved in football matters.

[Rocky]

This links in to something I've been pondering since seeing the comments about the academy from the AGM last night. I agree that we should have a footballing philosophy and ideally you want kids coming through from a young age (8 or 9) having that philosophy instilled in them.

one of the problems we have with East Mains is its location in relation to anyone on the west side of Edinburgh. I coach with a kids team in West Lothian and our boys (9 year olds) have had a few approaches from scouts (not so much Hibs to be honest - the ones that get noticed by Hibs tend to be the ones who have gone to the summer school things, but other clubs are a bit more proactive, especially Falkirk).

Anyway, the reality of trying to get kids from West Lothian to East Mains a couple of nights a week is just impossible for most parents. If we had a clear footballing philosophy and coaching style it might be possible to 'adopt' some feeder clubs in areas like West Lothian, train their coaches up, and help with the kids development whilst getting them attached to the club from an early age.

it wouldn't work for our club as we're very much a community club based on giving every child the opportunity to play. But some other clubs who practice streaming based on ability would really benefit from this. I see some of those clubs with a 'win at all costs' mentality - which means that they hoover up all the talent from other teams and then stunt the children's development through playing to win instead of playing the right way (not that the two are mutually exclusive - but winning ugly doesn't help the kids in the long run).

[Jack]

If that is the case should the head of the academy not be getting the heave. Or realise that the kids they have brought in aren't up to it and move them on asap. Or are they tied into contracts and not that easy to show these youngsters the door

The head of the academy has had too many first team coaches recently some of whom did not give a **** for youth development.

The environment around recruitment of youngsters is brutal - and I don't mean Hibs.

Every youth club has a coach and each one is tagged by a professional club. That club wines and dines the coach on the quality of its referrals.

English clubs have more money to invest in this sort of speculation than Hibs do.

The cream goes south.

One such coach I know is cursing Hibs for stealing his once in a 5 year period gem. It's cost him dear.

I'm not really one for going along to watch our wee teams but saw this boy once u20s or EOS, not knowing the above, what a ******g player for his years.

But for most of them we will, Scottish clubs, will lose out.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Said it before and I'll say it again, John Collins would have been an excellent choice to come in and completely oversee our fitness and ethos right the way through the club. Managers could and should then be able to slot in fairly seamlessly given that a style and direction is already in place.

Swansea are the perfect example. Rodgers, Sousa, Martinez and Laudrup. Seamless.

[WellingtonHibby]

As a 19 year old football coach, I have been reading a lot about the famous Ajax academy and system lately I got to wondering whether or not this was something that could be replicated at Hibs. A way of playing was established many years ago but has been evolved to suit the manager at the time. The way in which they set up not only their first team, but every other team below that. The same system and the same style are used from the day the players join Ajax until the day they leave. This allows the players to learn the system and adapt to it at a younger age. This way of playing, total football, has been replicated by many teams across the globe – most notably Barcelona – and tweaked slightly to fit the club. It doesn’t even need to be total football that I would like to see at Hibs, just a positive passing game. Something which allows players to express themselves on the pitch, of course this requires confidence which is why the same system is used throughout the ages. Most young, up and coming managers favour this approach (just look at Rodgers, Martinez, Laudrup for some positive examples). It only takes a bit of hard work and research for Hibs to find someone to fit the bill.
Moving on to the youth setup - There is a required number of youth players that are promoted to the first team every year, which limits the spending they need to do recruiting new players. Not only does this make sense on a financial perspective but fans are more likely to take to home grown, local players than a foreign journeyman who couldn’t care about the club. You only have to look at how many Ajax academy graduates have and continue to play across Europe to see how much of a success this has been. If East Mains is all it is cracked up to be, the combination of good quality coaching and a good recruitment process could prove fruitful for Hibs in the future. The focus at young ages is more on the technical development of the players, rather than the team winning matches. I feel this is the problem at grass roots level in Scotland, the emphasis being far more on winning than the developing of players. If you can develop players, the wins will start coming as a result.
Of course, if Hibs were to go with this it would be on a far smaller scale than the Dutch giants. But the general idea of having a generic system for every Hibs team – one of free flowing attacking football - is something that I believe many supporters long to see. Couple that with the introduction of more academy graduates, capable of playing the “Hibs way” would see far more support for the team, rather than the constant abuse and grumbling at players which seems to be the norm.
Any thoughts/criticisms would also be appreciated.


Are we not doing this alreasy, albeit not very well? :confused:

[MrRobot]

Would love Mowbray back but Pat is the manager and until that changes he gets the backing. Fwiw i think pat is a good manager and had a good eye for a player. Not all have been successful but this season i think he had recruited very well. Im hoping once the team gels a bit more, better football will be seen.

[blackpoolhibs]

Said it before and I'll say it again, John Collins would have been an excellent choice to come in and completely oversee our fitness and ethos right the way through the club. Managers could and should then be able to slot in fairly seamlessly given that a style and direction is already in place.

Swansea are the perfect example. Rodgers, Sousa, Martinez and Laudrup. Seamless.


Do Swansea have someone who does this, or is it just down to who they appoint as managers? :dunno:

They have appointed successive managers who have the same sort of style of football management, where its clear we dont.

In fact Mowbray and Collins seem to be the exception?

[Aldo]

Do Swansea have someone who does this, or is it just down to who they appoint as managers? :dunno: They have appointed successive managers who have the same sort of style of football management, where its clear we dont. In fact Mowbray and Collins seem to be the exception?

I think it's from the top G. They have installed a certain system on how the teams plays and appoint a manager who was same ethos etc. has worked well tbh

Marteniez, Sousa, Rodgers and now Laudrup.

[GreenCastle]

The constant change of managers doesn't help. Should that read the constant selection of poor managers doesn't help!

Top clubs have a structure in play - THE HIBERNIAN WAY for example and that is the philosophy of the club from bottom to top. It doesn't matter who the staff are the structure stays the same even if someone changes roles.

Do we have this at Hibs ? I'm not sure ?

Over the last few years I have watched some youth games and although at times we have had some excellent passers of the ball - often we still are looking at too many of the bigger / stronger players and missing out on the more technical (maybe not as physical) players.

If I was to change a few things right now..

1 - hire a manager that drives all levels of the club
2 - that manager then meets with youth coaches regularly and keeps an eye on whats happening lower down - certain players for certain positions needing filled.
3 - RP not to be anywhere near these meetings
4 - bring in better youth coaches and not just jobs for the boys
5 - improve the community and recruitment / scouting for players
6 - develop better links with the community - there are players out there but Hibs seem to struggle to identify potential

Until we make changes we will continue to have short term solutions and short term - poor return with number of players coming through.

Hibs need to be developing more players and selling them on if they are to bring in more money longer term.

[jacomo]

Question.... If Mowbrays tenure at Boro came to an end this season would you take him back.

He installed a few good things at the club and had relative success. Was that him or did he get a lucky break with the golden generation.

Fwiw I would take him back.

I think that would depend on him. Not sure he would have the enthusiasm for a second stint here, and that will to succeed and work hard was a key factor in his success I think, as he was very much seen as a coach on the way up and the players bought into that.

If he returned he would do so as something of a 'journeyman' manager, if such a thing exists, and I am not so sure he would be able to create the same atmosphere. He seemed pretty tired of Scottish football when he left us... and tired of it from day one at Celtc.