Defence

[The Sea-gull]

I'll go back to an old point I have made about Pat. He doesn't really seem to have us well covered or well organised in defence. In fact, he doesn't seem to have a clue what to do back there. I know he has been unlucky with injuries but it was obvious that we needed better cover at full back. Maybury is ok but is getting on and I don't think was really supposed to play much this season. Stevenson is make-shift quality but is increasingly having to be used. It makes the signing of Fraser Mullen currently look like one of the most ill judged and pointless pieces of business we have done in a while. Especially when the likes of Steven Saunders, Ben Gordon, Danny Granger and Tome Hately were all available this summer.

I do wonder if McPake will be a reliable figure ever again. We really needed a quality centre half this summer and have ended up with Michael Nelson who is ok but I would not rate him above bog standard SPL quality at best. Paul Hanlon? Keep hearing he is a great prospect but yet he has been at the centre of a blundering defence for three years now. Players have changed around him but he remains the one constant. Meanwhile a player like Stephen McManus who would have been an organiser, a leader and not to mention quality, is strolling it for the mighty Motherwell because Pat could not convince him to come here instead. It seems like a big jump from targetting a former Scotland interntationalist and decorated Celtic captain to Michael Nelson. Surely there must have been a few on the list between those two and in the end we have ended up with Michael Nelson relatively late on just coz he kens Jimmy Nic. Yet another example of lazy and clueless scouting by Fenlon.

We did seem to have been decent defensively recently but the Stranraer game and the ICT game have set alarm bells ringing for me again.

[rcarter1]

I'll go back to an old point I have made about Pat. He doesn't really seem to have us well covered or well organised in defence. In fact, he doesn't seem to have a clue what to do back there. I know he has been unlucky with injuries but it was obvious that we needed better cover at full back. Maybury is ok but is getting on and I don't think was really supposed to play much this season. Stevenson is make-shift quality but is increasingly having to be used. It makes the signing of Fraser Mullen currently look like one of the most ill judged and pointless pieces of business we have done in a while. Especially when the likes of Steven Saunders, Ben Gordon, Danny Granger and Tome Hately were all available this summer.

I do wonder if McPake will be a reliable figure ever again. We really needed a quality centre half this summer and have ended up with Michael Nelson who is ok but I would not rate him above bog standard SPL quality at best. Paul Hanlon? Keep hearing he is a great prospect but yet he has been at the centre of a blundering defence for three years now. Players have changed around him but he remains the one constant. Meanwhile a player like Stephen McManus who would have been an organiser, a leader and not to mention quality, is strolling it for the mighty Motherwell because Pat could not convince him to come here instead. It seems like a big jump from targetting a former Scotland interntationalist and decorated Celtic captain to Michael Nelson. Surely there must have been a few on the list between those two and in the end we have ended up with Michael Nelson relatively late on just coz he kens Jimmy Nic. Yet another example of lazy and clueless scouting by Fenlon.

We did seem to have been decent defensively recently but the Stranraer game and the ICT game have set alarm bells ringing for me again.

This is never a good thing to hear considering that we should be able to offer better terms than Motherwell. The situation with McPake has been a real blow, as when he was on form, he was not only a good defender with a bit of pace, but a leader for the likes of Hanlon - who can have great games at times. Nelson has done pretty well in some games, but his blunder rate is increasing, and lets not discuss his distribution of the ball. Have to agree that the Fraser Mullen situation is borderline embarrassing given that he was a Hearts (down to the barebones) reject. Started promising, but clearly not up the required standard yet. I like Maybury a lot, but will, like all our defenders struggle against the faster opposition.

[Andy74]

I'll go back to an old point I have made about Pat. He doesn't really seem to have us well covered or well organised in defence. In fact, he doesn't seem to have a clue what to do back there. I know he has been unlucky with injuries but it was obvious that we needed better cover at full back. Maybury is ok but is getting on and I don't think was really supposed to play much this season. Stevenson is make-shift quality but is increasingly having to be used. It makes the signing of Fraser Mullen currently look like one of the most ill judged and pointless pieces of business we have done in a while. Especially when the likes of Steven Saunders, Ben Gordon, Danny Granger and Tome Hately were all available this summer.

I do wonder if McPake will be a reliable figure ever again. We really needed a quality centre half this summer and have ended up with Michael Nelson who is ok but I would not rate him above bog standard SPL quality at best. Paul Hanlon? Keep hearing he is a great prospect but yet he has been at the centre of a blundering defence for three years now. Players have changed around him but he remains the one constant. Meanwhile a player like Stephen McManus who would have been an organiser, a leader and not to mention quality, is strolling it for the mighty Motherwell because Pat could not convince him to come here instead. It seems like a big jump from targetting a former Scotland interntationalist and decorated Celtic captain to Michael Nelson. Surely there must have been a few on the list between those two and in the end we have ended up with Michael Nelson relatively late on just coz he kens Jimmy Nic. Yet another example of lazy and clueless scouting by Fenlon.

We did seem to have been decent defensively recently but the Stranraer game and the ICT game have set alarm bells ringing for me again.

I think its a difficult part of the team to cope with so much disruption. When we were doing well start of last year we couldn't have afforded to lose one player from the first choice back four without paying for it, never mind three of them.

I'm fairly sure our first choice would be Clancy, McPake, Hanlon and Mcgivern.

The fact we do actually have half reasonable cover in Maybury, Nelson, Foster and Stevenson I'd say was fair enough.

Nelson was a very good player for Killie and although he's made some mistakes now he has generally been what we needed to cover for McPake. It's a bit pathetic to call his signing lazy and clueless.

We did try to sign McManus and he was quite clear why he chose Motherwell - for family reasons.

A bit like Sutton most people on here didn't want him anyhwere near us at the time by the way!

I'm not sure we can comment too much on how organised they are until we can settle them down. We've had three different players at left back and three at right back for starters. Inverness for example have started the same team in seven league games and only made a couple of starting changes from their team last year.

[Keith_M]

I think Maybury has been much improved this season and showed that some of the criticism he's previously received has been over the top. This really showed with him missing at the weekend.

[The Sea-gull]

I think its a difficult part of the team to cope with so much disruption. When we were doing well start of last year we couldn't have afforded to lose one player from the first choice back four without paying for it, never mind three of them.

I'm fairly sure our first choice would be Clancy, McPake, Hanlon and Mcgivern.

The fact we do actually have half reasonable cover in Maybury, Nelson, Foster and Stevenson I'd say was fair enough.

Nelson was a very good player for Killie and although he's made some mistakes now he has generally been what we needed to cover for McPake. It's a bit pathetic to call his signing lazy and clueless.

We did try to sign McManus and he was quite clear why he chose Motherwell - for family reasons.

A bit like Sutton most people on here didn't want him anyhwere near us at the time by the way!

I'm not sure we can comment too much on how organised they are until we can settle them down. We've had three different players at left back and three at right back for starters. Inverness for example have started the same team in seven league games and only made a couple of starting changes from their team last year.

I agree, it is the one area of the team that needs to be settled and we have had a lot of disruption there during Pat's time - a lot of it through bad luck with injuries..

I also agree that our first choice from what is there would be Clancy, McPake, Hanlon, McGivern. Not sure how good a back 4 that would be these days if we ever get to play them togethere again. Clancy is yet to convince. McPake has a lot to do to get back to where he was. Hanlon has played in all the defensive disasters in recent seasons though has not been helped by the chopping and changing. McGivern is a bit hit and miss too but needs a decent run.

Depending on the McPake situation, we are ok quantity wise at centre back but still lack quality. Again, same with full back and if Maybury was staying then Mullen was a needles signing unless he really is one for the future but suppose the budget only goes so far.

Think you are pushing it to say Nelson was a very good player for Killie. He was bang SPL average and still is. With McPake on the slide and Hanlon not reliable, we needed quality not another average SPL centre half. Someone with Nelson's physical attributes but someone who also has positional sense and a wee bit of pace would have been good. How do we go from targetting McManus to signing Nelson? He has just come along and Pat has thought "you'll do".

Re-write history all you want but there were plenty on here in the summer who wanted to sign McManus. Far more than those who weren't interested in getting him. If he did chose Motherwell for family reasons then fair enough but I reckon if we were in a better state and had a better manager who was more respected in the game, players would be willing to drive a bit further to work and see their family a wee bit later in the day.

[Andy74]

I agree, it is the one area of the team that needs to be settled and we have had a lot of disruption there during Pat's time - a lot of it through bad luck with injuries..

I also agree that our first choice from what is there would be Clancy, McPake, Hanlon, McGivern. Not sure how good a back 4 that would be these days if we ever get to play them togethere again. Clancy is yet to convince. McPake has a lot to do to get back to where he was. Hanlon has played in all the defensive disasters in recent seasons though has not been helped by the chopping and changing. McGivern is a bit hit and miss too but needs a decent run.

Depending on the McPake situation, we are ok quantity wise at centre back but still lack quality. Again, same with full back and if Maybury was staying then Mullen was a needles signing unless he really is one for the future but suppose the budget only goes so far.

Think you are pushing it to say Nelson was a very good player for Killie. He was bang SPL average and still is. With McPake on the slide and Hanlon not reliable, we needed quality not another average SPL centre half. Someone with Nelson's physical attributes but someone who also has positional sense and a wee bit of pace would have been good. How do we go from targetting McManus to signing Nelson? He has just come along and Pat has thought "you'll do".

Re-write history all you want but there were plenty on here in the summer who wanted to sign McManus. Far more than those who weren't interested in getting him. If he did chose Motherwell for family reasons then fair enough but I reckon if we were in a better state and had a better manager who was more respected in the game, players would be willing to drive a bit further to work and see their family a wee bit later in the day.

Your last line is plain daft - plenty decent players have agreed to come here and some have chosen to work with Pat again.

McManus also said this:

“It was probably one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever had to make. I was expecting to train with both Motherwell or Hibs and maybe not enjoy one as much. That would have made my decision easier.

“But I went to Easter Road and really enjoyed my time there. Pat Fenlon, his coaching staff and the players were all great. I couldn’t say anything negative about them at all, but in the end I went with my gut feeling which said Motherwell.

“I think I’ve made the right decision. I have loved my time here so far and I’m looking forward to the season."

[The Sea-gull]

Your last line is plain daft - plenty decent players have agreed to come here and some have chosen to work with Pat again.

McManus also said this:

“It was probably one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever had to make. I was expecting to train with both Motherwell or Hibs and maybe not enjoy one as much. That would have made my decision easier.

“But I went to Easter Road and really enjoyed my time there. Pat Fenlon, his coaching staff and the players were all great. I couldn’t say anything negative about them at all, but in the end I went with my gut feeling which said Motherwell.

“I think I’ve made the right decision. I have loved my time here so far and I’m looking forward to the season."

I do remember that passage you have quoted. Easy for a nice guy to say nice things about people in the press. Whether it tells the whole story or not...........

[Andy74]

I do remember that passage you have quoted. Easy for a nice guy to say nice things about people in the press. Whether it tells the whole story or not...........

Yeah sure, we now have McManus lying in the press when he really didn't have to say anything about Hibs at all. That's the most sensible version of events right enough.

[ancient hibee]

I seem to remember that McManus has been criticised in the press for at least 3 of the goals motherwell have lost.A wee stat re league goals against-Motherwell 9 Hibs 8.

[The Sea-gull]

Yeah sure, we now have McManus lying in the press when he really didn't have to say anything about Hibs at all. That's the most sensible version of events right enough.

Just saying