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matty_f
30-09-2013, 08:31 AM
Does anyone know our 'goals against' record with Lewis at right back, and what the average goals against per match is?

I'm not making Lewis a scapegoat, far from it - he's one of the few players who rarely lets us down. Instead I'm looking for statistical evidence to show how bad a decision by the manager it is to persist with Lewis at right back.

SMAXXA
30-09-2013, 08:43 AM
Can't think of any goals we have conceded this season that were a result of the RB channe Lewis has played? Not saying there isn't any but i can't think. Saturdays as example was a Nelson Williams mistake, poor CH play then a good finish from BM

matty_f
30-09-2013, 08:49 AM
Can't think of any goals we have conceded this season that were a result of the RB channe Lewis has played? Not saying there isn't any but i can't think. Saturdays as example was a Nelson Williams mistake, poor CH play then a good finish from BM

The cross came from the right hand side after Lewis missed a tackle in-field. The point I'm making isn't that Lewis is individually responsible for the goals we concede but rather the overall impact on the defence when he plays right back.

This is not about criticising Lewis, far from it.

LancsHibs
30-09-2013, 08:59 AM
Stevenson is an appalling RB, yet he has a fan club on this site where he can take no criticism.

For the record I like LS and think he's a great player to have to play/cover on the left, in fact I hope he plays LB on Monday.

I don't blame LS though, he's the type of guy that will do whatever he's asked and give it his best, blame is with Pat Fenlon for a; persistently playing him at RB b; not providing sufficient cover in this position when our No1 RB is a major doubt that he will ever pay again or be up to standard.

LS good wee player, a RB he is not!

matty_f
30-09-2013, 09:13 AM
Stevenson is an appalling RB, yet he has a fan club on this site where he can take no criticism.

For the record I like LS and think he's a great player to have to play/cover on the left, in fact I hope he plays LB on Monday.

I don't blame LS though, he's the type of guy that will do whatever he's asked and give it his best, blame is with Pat Fenlon for a; persistently playing him at RB b; not providing sufficient cover in this position when our No1 RB is a major doubt that he will ever pay again or be up to standard.

LS good wee player, a RB he is not!

I agree. Lewis rarely lets us down but he's never a right back. He deserves credit for getting on with it whenever he's asked to play there but imho it's clear that it doesn't work.

Aldo
30-09-2013, 09:17 AM
Stevenson is an appalling RB, yet he has a fan club on this site where he can take no criticism. For the record I like LS and think he's a great player to have to play/cover on the left, in fact I hope he plays LB on Monday. I don't blame LS though, he's the type of guy that will do whatever he's asked and give it his best, blame is with Pat Fenlon for a; persistently playing him at RB b; not providing sufficient cover in this position when our No1 RB is a major doubt that he will ever pay again or be up to standard. LS good wee player, a RB he is not!

Lancs, you know that and I know that yet Pat persists in playing him there. That for me leaves him in a hiding to nothing.

Lewis like any other player deserves praise when playing well and criticism when playing bad however Lewis like Hanlon seem to take it in turns to get it tight from folk on here when others seem to be immune to it.

That unfortunately will never change.

LancsHibs
30-09-2013, 09:27 AM
Lancs, you know that and I know that yet Pat persists in playing him there. That for me leaves him in a hiding to nothing.

Lewis like any other player deserves praise when playing well and criticism when playing bad however Lewis like Hanlon seem to take it in turns to get it tight from folk on here when others seem to be immune to it.

That unfortunately will never change.

I didn't know that you knew that!!

Aldo
30-09-2013, 09:36 AM
I didn't know that you knew that!!

😉 good one

SMAXXA
30-09-2013, 09:37 AM
The cross came from the right hand side after Lewis missed a tackle in-field. The point I'm making isn't that Lewis is individually responsible for the goals we concede but rather the overall impact on the defence when he plays right back.

This is not about criticising Lewis, far from it.

Yeah I understand that but that's a tackle / foul that he could have made on the left aswell though, I'm not sure what can be attributed to him as a result of playing on the right though, other than the obvious he's a lefty and not naturally right footed.

i agree he's not a RB but not sure I'm convinced it's as big an issue as some might think.

i think we should be more aware of the nightmare Nelson had and McGivern by the looks of things on the highlights also.

matty_f
30-09-2013, 09:41 AM
Yeah I understand that but that's a tackle / foul that he could have made on the left aswell though, I'm not sure what can be attributed to him as a result of playing on the right though, other than the obvious he's a lefty and not naturally right footed.

i agree he's not a RB but not sure I'm convinced it's as big an issue as some might think.

i think we should be more aware of the nightmare Nelson had and McGivern by the looks of things on the highlights also.

That was why I was looking for stats. I think we concede a huge amount of goals when Lewis plays right back but it would be interesting to see whether the evidence supports that view.

hibee_girl
30-09-2013, 09:43 AM
I think the only game you could really point the finger at Stevenson for losing goals at RB is the Malmo game (if he played there, I've blocked a lot from my memory!)

He has been pretty solid at RB for us since the Dundee Utd game

B.H.F.C
30-09-2013, 09:47 AM
The whole team suffers when he plays there, more so when have the ball. Look at the Stmirren game when Maybury overlapped Robertson, put the ball across and we scored. Similar thing on Saturday where Stevenson goes past Stanton who plays the ball to him. Instead of the ball going across he has to try and cut back on to his left foot, loses the ball, and the chance is gone.

When Mullen got hooked in the first half of the Dundee Utd game and Lewis had to go to right back you only needed to see his reaction to see how he really feels about playing there.

blackpoolhibs
30-09-2013, 09:55 AM
Stevenson on the left has mostly done a very good job when starting or coming on. He makes mistakes and is slaughtered like no other player when he does. Yet we saw on Saturday our wonderful keeper make another howler that resulted in a goal, but he's the best we've had since whoever? :rolleyes:

And Nelson?????????

Stevenson on the right does not work for one reason, he cuts inside all the time. He plays balls into the congested midfield, and the pitch is made narrower because of his one sided play. He wont get forward on the right the way he does on the left, and the team is very unbalanced with him on the right.

I never rated him a few seasons ago, but he won me over during the last couple of seasons. I'd say he's been worth his contract renewal for his performances during that time, but Fenlon is hanging him out to dry by putting him right back.

He will get stuck in on the right, and he will defend reasonably well, but as a unit we will be poorer with him there, and the defense won't get forward as much to support the midfield and play won't flow from the right hand side as much as it would if he was playing on the left.

BarneyK
30-09-2013, 10:02 AM
I think the only game you could really point the finger at Stevenson for losing goals at RB is the Malmo game (if he played there, I've blocked a lot from my memory!)

He has been pretty solid at RB for us since the Dundee Utd game

Lewis started on the right but switched to the left when McPake had to go off following the first goal. Mullen played on the right for goals 2-7.

hibsbollah
30-09-2013, 10:05 AM
That was why I was looking for stats. I think we concede a huge amount of goals when Lewis plays right back but it would be interesting to see whether the evidence supports that view.

No stats on goals conceded, but anecdotally he's had two or possibly three good performances at RB this season. Im sure on the player ratings thread most people had him MOTM or thereabouts. Memory might be letting me down but possibly Motherwell at home, (1-0 defeat) and definitely the 1-1 draw with Dundee Utd, when he swapped sides with Mullen who was having a mare (McGivern came on and went to left back on 30 mins).

He can play well there IMO. But Fenlon probably wasnt banking on Mullen being as poor as hes been, which is the root of the problem. Assuming Maybury cant do it every week, we do need to sign a right back though.

hibee_girl
30-09-2013, 10:07 AM
The whole team suffers when he plays there, more so when have the ball. Look at the Stmirren game when Maybury overlapped Robertson, put the ball across and we scored. Similar thing on Saturday where Stevenson goes past Stanton who plays the ball to him. Instead of the ball going across he has to try and cut back on to his left foot, loses the ball, and the chance is gone.

When Mullen got hooked in the first half of the Dundee Utd game and Lewis had to go to right back you only needed to see his reaction to see how he really feels about playing there.

Yet he went on to have his best game at RB against Utd

B.H.F.C
30-09-2013, 10:17 AM
Yet he went on to have his best game at RB against Utd

I didn't say that he didn't do well in that game, only that his reaction to being asked to go to right back told its own story.

In that particular game he handled McKay-Steven well. But as I said, the issue with Stevenson at right back is more when we have the ball than when defending IMO.

EVENTUALLY
30-09-2013, 10:45 AM
Stevenson on the left has mostly done a very good job when starting or coming on. He makes mistakes and is slaughtered like no other player when he does. Yet we saw on Saturday our wonderful keeper make another howler that resulted in a goal, but he's the best we've had since whoever? :rolleyes:

And Nelson?????????

Stevenson on the right does not work for one reason, he cuts inside all the time. He plays balls into the congested midfield, and the pitch is made narrower because of his one sided play. He wont get forward on the right the way he does on the left, and the team is very unbalanced with him on the right.

I never rated him a few seasons ago, but he won me over during the last couple of seasons. I'd say he's been worth his contract renewal for his performances during that time, but Fenlon is hanging him out to dry by putting him right back.

He will get stuck in on the right, and he will defend reasonably well, but as a unit we will be poorer with him there, and the defense won't get forward as much to support the midfield and play won't flow from the right hand side as much as it would if he was playing on the left.


The right back fiasco is entirely down to Fenlon. David Gold would have provided much a better option in there while gaining first team experience and showing the our crab style midfielders the benefits of playing forward passes. Lewis would have been able to play with greater confidence on his natural left side but heyho its what Fenlon does all the time.... he consistently puts guys on the wrong side of the park and midfielders who revel in side to back passing at a slow tempo making it easy for the oppo to retreat and organise themselves.

Hibiza
30-09-2013, 10:53 AM
Clancy a big disappointment, even when fit.

Viva_Palmeiras
30-09-2013, 11:08 AM
Keenan, Stevenson and there have been others. Over the years players consistently playing when either out of position or needing dropped. It leads me to wonder (and Pat himself not more than 2 weeks ago said that playing LS there upsets the balance of the team) whether it is some bizarre way of a manager saying to Rod look we need to strengthen in this area but this is what you've given me...

For the record my position on LS is supportive - I was saying to Matty_F at the cup game I wondered whether LS would go through his entire Hibs career playing out of position...

TheFamous1875
30-09-2013, 11:18 AM
LS is a left-sided central midfielder, isn't he? Can't remember the last time I saw him there! Against Dundee at he end of the season? I thought he played great in that match (granted I had work so had to leave 25 mins in)

I still don't know why Taiwo has not been tested at RB; he's tenacious and quick and works hard. If he has a cross then we're onto a winner. I think he could potentially make the position his own.


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matty_f
30-09-2013, 11:23 AM
No stats on goals conceded, but anecdotally he's had two or possibly three good performances at RB this season. Im sure on the player ratings thread most people had him MOTM or thereabouts. Memory might be letting me down but possibly Motherwell at home, (1-0 defeat) and definitely the 1-1 draw with Dundee Utd, when he swapped sides with Mullen who was having a mare (McGivern came on and went to left back on 30 mins).

He can play well there IMO. But Fenlon probably wasnt banking on Mullen being as poor as hes been, which is the root of the problem. Assuming Maybury cant do it every week, we do need to sign a right back though.

The point I'm making is not about Lewis' contribution or ability, it's whether the defence is weaker when Lewis goes to right back. This could be because his left back replacement causes problems, or there's a positional issue, or some problem communicating between the defence..whatever.

Lewis has had good games at right back individually, but do those good performances equate to a more solid defence?

You could look at how Bamba was played when we used him as a defensive midfielder. Individually he played well but it meant our midfield sat too deep and caused us problems.

inglisavhibs
30-09-2013, 11:34 AM
Yeah I understand that but that's a tackle / foul that he could have made on the left aswell though, I'm not sure what can be attributed to him as a result of playing on the right though, other than the obvious he's a lefty and not naturally right footed.

i agree he's not a RB but not sure I'm convinced it's as big an issue as some might think.

i think we should be more aware of the nightmare Nelson had and McGivern by the looks of things on the highlights also.

It is a huge issue though, one of the many reasons we are toothless in attack against any decent team. How can we threaten down our right hand side with a right back who is left footed and is also slow, added to the problem of playing a central midfielder wide right. We then have two central midfielders, neither of whom ever score a goal and also find it difficult (or maybe can't) get behind the opposition defence and on the left we play with a wide player who again can't beat anybody and is slow. How are we supposed to create with that team.

On the Stevenson issue, I think he does well for what he has in his locker but if you want a Hibs team who will challenge for 2nd place (as we should be) we need better.

SMAXXA
30-09-2013, 11:35 AM
The point I'm making is not about Lewis' contribution or ability, it's whether the defence is weaker when Lewis goes to right back. This could be because his left back replacement causes problems, or there's a positional issue, or some problem communicating between the defence..whatever.

Lewis has had good games at right back individually, but do those good performances equate to a more solid defence?

You could look at how Bamba was played when we used him as a defensive midfielder. Individually he played well but it meant our midfield sat too deep and caused us problems.

Wouldnt the fact we had the best defensive start to a season in x amount of seasons answer your question? With Lewis at RB at times?

hibsbollah
30-09-2013, 11:40 AM
The point I'm making is not about Lewis' contribution or ability, it's whether the defence is weaker when Lewis goes to right back. This could be because his left back replacement causes problems, or there's a positional issue, or some problem communicating between the defence..whatever.

Lewis has had good games at right back individually, but do those good performances equate to a more solid defence?

You could look at how Bamba was played when we used him as a defensive midfielder. Individually he played well but it meant our midfield sat too deep and caused us problems.

I understand your point; my opinion is this season playing him there hasnt weakened the defence, either at right back or collectively.

TheFamous1875
30-09-2013, 11:44 AM
I think regardless of how good LS does at RB (I'm a big fan of his), the team's balance is off with him there; he's too one footed to do it seamlessly, and because of this, he can only do what he can with his left, so therefore, he's guaranteed to cut in, and that's very easy pickings for opposing teams to exploit. It'd be easy for you or I to exploit as it's a guarantee!

My outlook (and I'm sure most other people's) on team building is to to play your players to their strengths, and I think Fenlon's approach is to play his players to the best way he think his team should counter the other team's game plan, regardless of his players' strengths or weaknesses, and hope that they get the job done.


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matty_f
30-09-2013, 11:48 AM
Wouldnt the fact we had the best defensive start to a season in x amount of seasons answer your question? With Lewis at RB at times?

Well, no, not really because that presumably removes the 9 (nine) goals shipped to Malmo.
Is it still the best defensive record up til now? We lost 2 goals to Stranraer with Lewis at right back, then 3 at Inverness. That's 14 over four games!

matty_f
30-09-2013, 11:50 AM
I understand your point; my opinion is this season playing him there hasnt weakened the defence, either at right back or collectively.

I get your opinion, it's why I asked if anyone has the stats so we can take opinion out of it and look objectively.

Tyler Durden
30-09-2013, 11:50 AM
The bottom line is that we don't appear to have a long term right back solution at the club.

Clancy is never fit, Maybury is 37 and Mullen is apparently not good enough. Surely Fenlon should have known whether Mullen was ready to play in the SPL when signing him.

We could have taken the wages for the latter 2 or Vine/OTJ (players that aren't adding any value to the squad IMO) and offered Tom Hateley a deal. Or surely another RB of a good standard.

Instead we're left with this fiasco of Lewis at RB and hoping that Clancy can get fit and start performing.

Fenlon is responsible.

hibee_girl
30-09-2013, 11:54 AM
Well, no, not really because that presumably removes the 9 (nine) goals shipped to Malmo.
Is it still the best defensive record up til now? We lost 2 goals to Stranraer with Lewis at right back, then 3 at Inverness. That's 14 over four games!

As pointed out by someone earlier in the thread Lewis wasn't at right back for goals 2-7 in the Malmo game at home.

There's also 3 other people in that defence and I'd go as far as to say Nelson has cost us more goals than Stevenson.

TheFamous1875
30-09-2013, 11:57 AM
Stats that show how many goals have been shipped with LS at RB don't show the objective errors by Williams, Hanlon and Nelson, do they? They've had some absolute shockers given away from lack of concentration, communication and organisation. I can't think of very many of these goals that were conceded with LS at RB that were directly a result of anything to do with LS.


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3pm
30-09-2013, 11:58 AM
Would be interested to hear who was playing in front of Lewis in these games as well. It's not just him, it's the man who is meant to be supporting him too.

TheFamous1875
30-09-2013, 12:01 PM
Would be interested to hear who was playing in front of Lewis in these games as well. It's not just him, it's the man who is meant to be supporting him too.

Exactly. We've had Harris (young, about as attacking as you could get) Robertson (never played RM in his whole career) and Vine (attacking and lazy).


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IanM
30-09-2013, 12:04 PM
Stats that show how many goals have been shipped with LS at RB don't show the objective errors by Williams, Hanlon and Nelson, do they? They've had some absolute shockers given away from lack of concentration, communication and organisation. I can't think of very many of these goals that were conceded with LS at RB that were directly a result of anything to do with LS.


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:agree: Stevenson can't win.. he's been great at left back, he gets to right back because he's NEEDED there to help cover.. I'm sure Lewis would love nothing better than tell PF to do one than have to listen to the grief he gets about his performances when all he's doing is taking one for the team.

we should be summarising how many individual errors we've had that cost us games and goals, would be a truer reflection of our matches

flash
30-09-2013, 12:08 PM
Judging by the highlights the whole back five were all over the place just as they were against Stranraer.

HFC 0-7
30-09-2013, 12:11 PM
Not sure what the stats are but team target him when he plays there so it puts him and that side under more pressure. The games I have seen him play at rb showed that they targeted that side but he didn't seem to get anymore help from midfield which you would expect he would get.

matty_f
30-09-2013, 12:31 PM
:agree: Stevenson can't win.. he's been great at left back, he gets to right back because he's NEEDED there to help cover.. I'm sure Lewis would love nothing better than tell PF to do one than have to listen to the grief he gets about his performances when all he's doing is taking one for the team.

we should be summarising how many individual errors we've had that cost us games and goals, would be a truer reflection of our matches

For the avoidance of doubt and at the risk of repeating myself, this thread is IN NO WAY INTENDED TO CRITICISE LEWIS STEVENSON OR POINT THE FINGER AT LEWIS INDIVIDUALLY FOR ANY GOAL CONCEDED.

My question is whether or not we are statistically worse when Lewis is played as a right back.

silverhibee
30-09-2013, 12:39 PM
Keenan, Stevenson and there have been others. Over the years players consistently playing when either out of position or needing dropped. It leads me to wonder (and Pat himself not more than 2 weeks ago said that playing LS there upsets the balance of the team) whether it is some bizarre way of a manager saying to Rod look we need to strengthen in this area but this is what you've given me...

For the record my position on LS is supportive - I was saying to Matty_F at the cup game I wondered whether LS would go through his entire Hibs career playing out of position...

I forget because he has played so many positions but what is his natural position.

TheFamous1875
30-09-2013, 12:51 PM
I forget because he has played so many positions but what is his natural position.

He's a left-sided central midfielder, I think....


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allezsauzee
30-09-2013, 12:56 PM
I didn't manage to get to the game on Saturday, but from the highlights I would say the more pertinent question is how many goals do we concede with McGivern is in the team compared to when he's not. Of course if he's not in the team then it's likely that Lewis would play left back!

J-C
30-09-2013, 01:05 PM
He's a left-sided central midfielder, I think....


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Yep, left/central midfield is his natural position, he's seen as a utility type player, wouldn't it be good to see what he could do in his real position rather than everywhere else, maybe could've saved the wages of OTJ :wink:

SMAXXA
30-09-2013, 01:10 PM
For the avoidance of doubt and at the risk of repeating myself, this thread is IN NO WAY INTENDED TO CRITICISErr LEWIS STEVENSON OR POINT THE FINGER AT LEWIS INDIVIDUALLY FOR ANY GOAL CONCEDED.

My question is whether or not we are statistically worse when Lewis is played as a right back.

Ok statistically we are not, thread closed :na na:

JimBHibees
30-09-2013, 01:36 PM
No stats on goals conceded, but anecdotally he's had two or possibly three good performances at RB this season. Im sure on the player ratings thread most people had him MOTM or thereabouts. Memory might be letting me down but possibly Motherwell at home, (1-0 defeat) and definitely the 1-1 draw with Dundee Utd, when he swapped sides with Mullen who was having a mare (McGivern came on and went to left back on 30 mins).

He can play well there IMO. But Fenlon probably wasnt banking on Mullen being as poor as hes been, which is the root of the problem. Assuming Maybury cant do it every week, we do need to sign a right back though.

I dont think Mullen would have expected to go right into the first team it is the constant injuries to Clancy which has been the main issue in that position.

IanM
30-09-2013, 01:49 PM
For the avoidance of doubt and at the risk of repeating myself, this thread is IN NO WAY INTENDED TO CRITICISE LEWIS STEVENSON OR POINT THE FINGER AT LEWIS INDIVIDUALLY FOR ANY GOAL CONCEDED.

My question is whether or not we are statistically worse when Lewis is played as a right back.

I read your OP, I know thats not what you were aiming at - I was just pointing out the Lewis gets a hard time for taking one for the team.

we lost 2 quick goals against Stranraer when he was swtiched to RB when McGivern came on.. nothing to do with Lewis but that's 2 goals shipped

brog
30-09-2013, 01:52 PM
I don't think the stats, if they're available will prove or disprove anything. Stats are meaningless unless put into proper context & in this case there's too many variables, eg standard of opposition, make up of Hibs team, specific individual errors, for the stats to have any value. Whether we suffer defensively or not is I think uncertain but I think there's a consensus we lose some attacking options with Lewis switching inside from RB. Having said that it was an LG pass from RB with his left foot that provided our winner at St J.

SMAXXA
30-09-2013, 01:57 PM
I don't think the stats, if they're available will prove or disprove anything. Stats are meaningless unless put into proper context & in this case there's too many variables, eg standard of opposition, make up of Hibs team, specific individual errors, for the stats to have any value. Whether we suffer defensively or not is I think uncertain but I think there's a consensus we lose some attacking options with Lewis switching inside from RB. Having said that it was an LG pass from RB with his left foot that provided our winner at St J.

What about his assist against Kili for Liam C, so should the question be who's got the Moses assists from RB or the entire defence?

KeithTheHibby
30-09-2013, 01:58 PM
In the second 45 minutes against Stranraer we lost 2 goals with Lewis at RB.

In 90 mins against Inverness we lost 3 goals with Lewis at RB.

I don't know the rest unfortunately however those last 135 minutes of football make horrific reading.

As Matty says this isn't about making Lewis scapegoat. I would imagine he hates playing that position too.

If Fenlon was doing his job correctly then stats like this should be made available to him to highlight how stupid a decision it is in the first place.

KeithTheHibby
30-09-2013, 02:04 PM
I don't think the stats, if they're available will prove or disprove anything. Stats are meaningless unless put into proper context & in this case there's too many variables, eg standard of opposition, make up of Hibs team, specific individual errors, for the stats to have any value. Whether we suffer defensively or not is I think uncertain but I think there's a consensus we lose some attacking options with Lewis switching inside from RB. Having said that it was an LG pass from RB with his left foot that provided our winner at St J.


There is no consensus, it's a fact he lose attacking options.

The Tubs
30-09-2013, 02:14 PM
What about his assist against Kili for Liam C, so should the question be who's got the Moses assists from RB or the entire defence?

Was the Pharaoh's daughter a right-back?

brog
30-09-2013, 02:14 PM
What about his assist against Kili for Liam C, so should the question be who's got the Moses assists from RB or the entire defence?

Sorry, that was the goal I meant!

matty_f
30-09-2013, 02:48 PM
Ok statistically we are not, thread closed :na na:

So what are the statistics?

I think we suffer as a team, and I think it's the manager's fault rather than Lewis' fault .

As Dave commented earlier, teams target us more down the right when Lewis plays there. I also think we lose a lot in an attacking sense when Lewis plays right back because we tend to come inside more, and also I think Lewis attacks much more effectively at left back, than he does at right back. This leads to us not putting as much pressure on the opponents and in turn leads to us having to defend more.

In the same way that I could ask how many goals did we score with x player being a lone striker compared to when they had a strike partner etc, it's not to say categorically that being a lone striker is the problem (or solution) but instead it invites investigation into whether there is an issue and if so, what's the answer?

Andy74
30-09-2013, 02:58 PM
So what are the statistics?

I think we suffer as a team, and I think it's the manager's fault rather than Lewis' fault .

As Dave commented earlier, teams target us more down the right when Lewis plays there. I also think we lose a lot in an attacking sense when Lewis plays right back because we tend to come inside more, and also I think Lewis attacks much more effectively at left back, than he does at right back. This leads to us not putting as much pressure on the opponents and in turn leads to us having to defend more.

In the same way that I could ask how many goals did we score with x player being a lone striker compared to when they had a strike partner etc, it's not to say categorically that being a lone striker is the problem (or solution) but instead it invites investigation into whether there is an issue and if so, what's the answer?

You are approaching this as if its a preferred choice, which it isn't. Pat has explained a couple of times that it imbalances the team but he hasn't really had anyone else to play there.

Clancy and Maybury were injured and Mullen has had a difficult start. Fenlon has also been talking about him as still having a role to play but that he was thrown in too early after being injured and he is now just getting his fitness and confidence back.

Stevenson came through the young teams as a left back I think, not a midfielder. He appeared first of all if I recall in France pre season and did well at left back. It was only after this he played some games in midfield. Most of his appearances for us have been full back. Swapping sides of the pitch isn't the worst thing in the world compared to some looking to play Taiwo there or playing centre halfs there which I think is a different proposition altogether.

As has also been pointed out you can't really attribute the goals we've lost or goals we haven't scored on one choice of player or position like this. I can't really think of anyhting he or the fact he has been playing there has been the issue.

I don't really think its too fair going after a manager or a thing like this when probably three other options aren't really viable for him just now.

JimBHibees
30-09-2013, 03:04 PM
You are approaching this as if its a preferred choice, which it isn't. Pat has explained a couple of times that it imbalances the team but he hasn't really had anyone else to play there.

Clancy and Maybury were injured and Mullen has had a difficult start. Fenlon has also been talking about him as still having a role to play but that he was thrown in too early after being injured and he is now just getting his fitness and confidence back.

Stevenson came through the young teams as a left back I think, not a midfielder. He appeared first of all if I recall in France pre season and did well at left back. It was only after this he played some games in midfield. Most of his appearances for us have been full back. Swapping sides of the pitch isn't the worst thing in the world compared to some looking to play Taiwo there or playing centre halfs there which I think is a different proposition altogether.

As has also been pointed out you can't really attribute the goals we've lost or goals we haven't scored on one choice of player or position like this. I can't really think of anyhting he or the fact he has been playing there has been the issue.

I don't really think its too fair going after a manager or a thing like this when probably three other options aren't really viable for him just now.

On watching the goals we lost it would appear to me both centre halfs and goalie were most culpable at the goals. I am sure the manager doesnt want him to play there (the perma injured Clancy would be the shout) however it does seem strange that left sided right full backs appear to be more awkward than right footed left backs.

PatHead
30-09-2013, 03:14 PM
The bottom line is that we don't appear to have a long term right back solution at the club.

Clancy is never fit, Maybury is 37 and Mullen is apparently not good enough. Surely Fenlon should have known whether Mullen was ready to play in the SPL when signing him.

We could have taken the wages for the latter 2 or Vine/OTJ (players that aren't adding any value to the squad IMO) and offered Tom Hateley a deal. Or surely another RB of a good standard.

Instead we're left with this fiasco of Lewis at RB and hoping that Clancy can get fit and start performing.

Fenlon is responsible.

Just playing devil's advocate but how do you know we didn't try to sign Tom Hateley and that he turned us down? Have you asked PF what other full backs he tried to sign or have you decided he didn't try to get any? When Vine and OTJ signed we were all pleased to see 2 established SPL performers in our team at the expense of opponents. Some signings just don't happen no matter how hard we try.

Andy74
30-09-2013, 03:20 PM
Just playing devil's advocate but how do you know we didn't try to sign Tom Hateley and that he turned us down? Have you asked PF what other full backs he tried to sign or have you decided he didn't try to get any? When Vine and OTJ signed we were all pleased to see 2 established SPL performers in our team at the expense of opponents. Some signings just don't happen no matter how hard we try.

Both those players will have roles to play in the future too, its far too early to suggest they shouldn't have been signed.

I'm sure Pat would loved to have had another good right back in but the budget only goes so far. We might think Clancy is never fit and not worth persevering with but the reality is we are still paying him. You can't just cover for every injury by buying more players.

I think Mullen will actually prove to be decent back up as well and will be cheap for the budget. Quite bad luck Maybury appears to have been injured too just as we were settling that position down a bit.

You can argue about not adding enough pace and all that, though I think with Harris and Zoubir in the squad we have that, and both will prove to add a dimension each as we get them in the team more often, but I think singling out something like this to fault the manager on is is very harsh.

matty_f
30-09-2013, 04:10 PM
You are approaching this as if its a preferred choice, which it isn't. Pat has explained a couple of times that it imbalances the team but he hasn't really had anyone else to play there.

Clancy and Maybury were injured and Mullen has had a difficult start. Fenlon has also been talking about him as still having a role to play but that he was thrown in too early after being injured and he is now just getting his fitness and confidence back.

Stevenson came through the young teams as a left back I think, not a midfielder. He appeared first of all if I recall in France pre season and did well at left back. It was only after this he played some games in midfield. Most of his appearances for us have been full back. Swapping sides of the pitch isn't the worst thing in the world compared to some looking to play Taiwo there or playing centre halfs there which I think is a different proposition altogether.

As has also been pointed out you can't really attribute the goals we've lost or goals we haven't scored on one choice of player or position like this. I can't really think of anyhting he or the fact he has been playing there has been the issue.

I don't really think its too fair going after a manager or a thing like this when probably three other options aren't really viable for him just now.

Nobody's going after the manager Andy, not on this thread anyway.

The question should be asked though, if Stevenson at right back is the only option, then what does Fenlon need to do with the rest of the formation to mitigate the impact of that situation? Has he done anything?

I'm not (again) saying it's Lewis that is the issue. That's not and never has been my point, my question (aside from asking whether someone had the stats for the goals against with Stevenson at right back, which I presume nobody does at the moment) is how do we get around that issue?

Andy74
30-09-2013, 04:21 PM
Nobody's going after the manager Andy, not on this thread anyway.

The question should be asked though, if Stevenson at right back is the only option, then what does Fenlon need to do with the rest of the formation to mitigate the impact of that situation? Has he done anything?

I'm not (again) saying it's Lewis that is the issue. That's not and never has been my point, my question (aside from asking whether someone had the stats for the goals against with Stevenson at right back, which I presume nobody does at the moment) is how do we get around that issue?

You said you wanted the statistics to show how bad a decision it was by the manager.

The fact is it's not a first, second or perhaps even third choice decision!

matty_f
30-09-2013, 04:41 PM
You said you wanted the statistics to show how bad a decision it was by the manager.

The fact is it's not a first, second or perhaps even third choice decision!

No, you're paraphrasing and changing the context. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I asked for the stats (which, incidentally, may prove the whole thread redundant if they show our defensive record is better with Lewis at right back) to see if there we conceded more when Lewis was right back. I then went to lengths to point out that this was not to rip into Lewis, and then opined that (if my perception that there is a higher goals against with Lewis at right back) then rather than being Lewis' fault, it was the manager's. That's different from asking for the stats to show how bad a decision it was by the manager.

Having Lewis at right back may not be the issue, it could be that other adjustments (where the manager does have options) aren't made to legislate for Lewis being at right back. For instance, there's an argument to be put forward that Lewis on current form is a better left back than McGivern, who is just coming back from injury - in this case, playing McGivern at left back and moving Lewis to right back is going to weaken two positions in the defence potentially. How do we set up the midfield to help with that? Is there something else that can be done to help?

Stantons Angel
30-09-2013, 04:49 PM
Wouldnt the fact we had the best defensive start to a season in x amount of seasons answer your question? With Lewis at RB at times?

At last someone has answered this silly question with a bit of sense!

Its like asking how many games did we win when Lewis played left back as well? The op says he is not singling out Lewis for criticism but by asking the question it seems to me he is?

It frustrates me so much when this lad is used not just as a scapegoat but for comparison reasons too. He plays were the manager tells him to play, gives his all and does his best. I realise this is not to everybodys taste but its true.

Even last week when Fenlon took off Maybury at half time and moved him it changed the understanding the defence was begining to have together.

As the op says he was NOT to blame for Saturdays result but if i had to id lay it at the feet of the keeper and centre half in front of him!

Where though are the long winding posts of criticisms about them then?..................... or could it be they are reserved for Lewis?

Baldy Foghorn
30-09-2013, 04:54 PM
In the second 45 minutes against Stranraer we lost 2 goals with Lewis at RB.

In 90 mins against Inverness we lost 3 goals with Lewis at RB.

I don't know the rest unfortunately however those last 135 minutes of football make horrific reading.

As Matty says this isn't about making Lewis scapegoat. I would imagine he hates playing that position too.

If Fenlon was doing his job correctly then stats like this should be made available to him to highlight how stupid a decision it is in the first place.

Losing Maybury has given us a loss of shape at back, maybe McGivern is the weak link?:devil:

Jonnyboy
30-09-2013, 04:54 PM
Stevenson is an appalling RB, yet he has a fan club on this site where he can take no criticism.

For the record I like LS and think he's a great player to have to play/cover on the left, in fact I hope he plays LB on Monday.

I don't blame LS though, he's the type of guy that will do whatever he's asked and give it his best, blame is with Pat Fenlon for a; persistently playing him at RB b; not providing sufficient cover in this position when our No1 RB is a major doubt that he will ever pay again or be up to standard.

LS good wee player, a RB he is not!

He also has a group of fans who seem intent on only ever criticising him, even when he's played that well he's identified by some as their MotM.

I don't think he is never a right back and never will be but if the manager plays him there, what's he to do? Refuse?

As you say, if blame is to be apportioned it should not be aimed at Lewis

Sorry for using your post to vent :greengrin

Andy74
30-09-2013, 04:56 PM
No, you're paraphrasing and changing the context. That's not what I'm saying at all.

I asked for the stats (which, incidentally, may prove the whole thread redundant if they show our defensive record is better with Lewis at right back) to see if there we conceded more when Lewis was right back. I then went to lengths to point out that this was not to rip into Lewis, and then opined that (if my perception that there is a higher goals against with Lewis at right back) then rather than being Lewis' fault, it was the manager's. That's different from asking for the stats to show how bad a decision it was by the manager.

Having Lewis at right back may not be the issue, it could be that other adjustments (where the manager does have options) aren't made to legislate for Lewis being at right back. For instance, there's an argument to be put forward that Lewis on current form is a better left back than McGivern, who is just coming back from injury - in this case, playing McGivern at left back and moving Lewis to right back is going to weaken two positions in the defence potentially. How do we set up the midfield to help with that? Is there something else that can be done to help?

This is what you said:

"I'm looking for statistical evidence to show how bad a decision by the manager it is to persist with Lewis at right back."

Jonnyboy
30-09-2013, 04:59 PM
I think Matty's request for information is entirely valid. I also accept his intention was never to blame Lewis or have a go at him. Unfortunately other posters have seen the opportunity to do that very thing because that's how messageboard threads go.

I wonder what the stats would say about goals lost when McGivern is at left back, or indeed if Nelson is in central defence?

Jonnyboy
30-09-2013, 05:01 PM
I forget because he has played so many positions but what is his natural position.

When he plays wide left midfield P, we get a far better performance out of McGivern because the full back knows he's safe to push up in attack because Lewis will cover his absence in defence. That's how it's meant to work but Pat seems disinclined to try it

Argylehibby
30-09-2013, 05:01 PM
That was why I was looking for stats. I think we concede a huge amount of goals when Lewis plays right back but it would be interesting to see whether the evidence supports that view.

I agree we do concede a lot of goals when he is at right back Matty, most of them come from the left back position. While Lewis isn't a right back, McGivern is not a left back either, hopefully on Monday McGivern (or McPake) will play at centre half with Hanlon.

Tyler Durden
30-09-2013, 05:21 PM
Just playing devil's advocate but how do you know we didn't try to sign Tom Hateley and that he turned us down? Have you asked PF what other full backs he tried to sign or have you decided he didn't try to get any? When Vine and OTJ signed we were all pleased to see 2 established SPL performers in our team at the expense of opponents. Some signings just don't happen no matter how hard we try.

I think you've read my post too literally. Maybe Fenlon did try other RBs but ultimately he signed Mullen and quite early in the window too. But quite quickly he's decided Mullens not good enough and probably shattered any confidence the guy had by subbing him by the 45 minute mark, not once but twice. Whatever way you look at it, it's poor management.

Overall I actually think the squad is quite well balanced now. A better manager could get a lot more out of them.

Danderhall Hibs
30-09-2013, 05:43 PM
Does anyone know our 'goals against' record with Lewis at right back, and what the average goals against per match is?

I'm not making Lewis a scapegoat, far from it - he's one of the few players who rarely lets us down. Instead I'm looking for statistical evidence to show how bad a decision by the manager it is to persist with Lewis at right back.

I asked you a similar question on Saturday although I said "how many goals do we lose when mcgivern's at left back"!

Mind you Stevenson only plays rb when mcgivern's fit.

matty_f
30-09-2013, 06:00 PM
I asked you a similar question on Saturday although I said "how many goals do we lose when mcgivern's at left back"!

Mind you Stevenson only plays rb when mcgivern's fit.

I alluded to that as well , it's not just about Lewis being played at right back but the other factors around that move (such as McGivern coming in).

I don't see the issue in asking the question, to be honest

matty_f
30-09-2013, 06:04 PM
This is what you said:

"I'm looking for statistical evidence to show how bad a decision by the manager it is to persist with Lewis at right back."

And did you read the subsequent posts expanding on what I meant?

TheFamous1875
30-09-2013, 07:08 PM
When he plays wide left midfield P, we get a far better performance out of McGivern because the full back knows he's safe to push up in attack because Lewis will cover his absence in defence. That's how it's meant to work but Pat seems disinclined to try it

I love our left side when we do this, though it is very rare. I love when Lewis gives mcgivern license to get forward - brings out the best in both.

I also believe McGivern and Harris work well together, as McGivern gives Harris great service. I wish Fenlon knew this!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Danderhall Hibs
30-09-2013, 07:14 PM
I alluded to that as well , it's not just about Lewis being played at right back but the other factors around that move (such as McGivern coming in).

I don't see the issue in asking the question, to be honest

Neither do I. As soon as he moved to RB at HT last Tuesday we've shipped 5.

TheFamous1875
30-09-2013, 07:14 PM
I also want to know why Fenlon has refused to try Forster at RB. Is he protecting him? That's the only reason why he can't've tried him there, his displays at CB last season more than merited a place in the starting XI.

I can't see why he wouldn't be capable at RB. Maybe Fenlon doesn't want to risk stunting Forster's growth or something like that, which seems fair - but how could he not do a job at RB if he can do it at CB?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD.

J-C
30-09-2013, 07:20 PM
This is what you said:

"I'm looking for statistical evidence to show how bad a decision by the manager it is to persist with Lewis at right back."

That quote looks more like a dig at Fenlon rather than Stevenson, plus he did state in OP that it wasn't his intention to have a go at Stevenson, so why question him about that.

B.H.F.C
30-09-2013, 07:31 PM
I also want to know why Fenlon has refused to try Forster at RB. Is he protecting him? That's the only reason why he can't've tried him there, his displays at CB last season more than merited a place in the starting XI.

I can't see why he wouldn't be capable at RB. Maybe Fenlon doesn't want to risk stunting Forster's growth or something like that, which seems fair - but how could he not do a job at RB if he can do it at CB?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD.

No point in playing another player out of position. I actually think Forster should get a chance at centre half.

Andy74
30-09-2013, 09:14 PM
That quote looks more like a dig at Fenlon rather than Stevenson, plus he did state in OP that it wasn't his intention to have a go at Stevenson, so why question him about that.

I'm questioning the dig at Fenlon about this. It's not his first choice so why look for statistics to prove how bad a decision it is?

Andy74
30-09-2013, 09:15 PM
I also want to know why Fenlon has refused to try Forster at RB. Is he protecting him? That's the only reason why he can't've tried him there, his displays at CB last season more than merited a place in the starting XI.

I can't see why he wouldn't be capable at RB. Maybe Fenlon doesn't want to risk stunting Forster's growth or something like that, which seems fair - but how could he not do a job at RB if he can do it at CB?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD.

So the answer is to try a youngster in a strange position? Yes that makes sense over a fairly experienced full back.

3pm
30-09-2013, 09:23 PM
So the answer is to try a youngster in a strange position? Yes that makes sense over a fairly experienced full back.

It appears that Forster has played right back.

Andy74
30-09-2013, 09:46 PM
It appears that Forster has played right back.

How often, at what level and any good? Do you reckon this was a secret no one told Pat about? :)

matty_f
30-09-2013, 10:09 PM
I'm questioning the dig at Fenlon about this. It's not his first choice so why look for statistics to prove how bad a decision it is?

Could Fenlon have been expected to adjust either tactics or personnel if he knew he had to play Lewis at right back if, as at least a few folk seem to recognise, that causes us problems?

Tyler Durden
01-10-2013, 06:43 AM
How often, at what level and any good? Do you reckon this was a secret no one told Pat about? :)

It would be just as sensible to play Forster at RB as the "experienced full back" Stevenson.

Just because Fenlon hasn't used that option doesn't mean it's not a good one - the man is clueless. You are defending him because its his 3rd choice but he is the one who put himself in that position.

Certainly unfortunate that Clancy is injured, but in August Fenlon had Mullen as next in line. After a full 3 games (not enough to judge a player people regularly tell us) Fenlon has dumped him and decided to re-sign Maybury. Up until recently he still favoured Stevenson at RB over him too.

It's a farce which Fenlon has not managed at all well. He's played Robertson out of position since the day he signed and regularly hangs Stevenson out to dry at RB but its unthinkable to try Forster in a position widely regarded as the easiest to play on his natural side.

In Pat (and Andy) we trust.

3pm
01-10-2013, 06:46 AM
How often, at what level and any good? Do you reckon this was a secret no one told Pat about? :)

I dunno about the goings on behind closed doors so can't answer your question. How do you know it's a 'strange' position for him? I am assuming you will therefore have the answers to your own questions?!

J-C
01-10-2013, 08:41 AM
I'm questioning the dig at Fenlon about this. It's not his first choice so why look for statistics to prove how bad a decision it is?

No it's not his 1st choice but that choice was to sign an untested youngster who'd been booted from our rivals, instead of making the RB position one of top priority, that's what 's getting on people goat, Fenlon's inability to see his own shortcomings. You defend Fenlon as if your like depended on an it and that's admirable but when a vast majority of posters on here say he's not good enough, tactically or managerially you just can't hack it.

The OP wanted stats, which have yet to come and he was also questioning Fenlon for persisting with a plan that just doesn't work, my goodness even you can't be so blinded by your love for Pat that you can't see that playing young Lewis there time and time again isn't working and when Maybury plays the team has a better shape. This again begs the question, why wasn't getting proper cover in that position a priority instead of signings like OTJ and Vine, two players that we don't really need, even the signing of Nelson is a panic one, when our captain got injured yet again.

Spike Mandela
01-10-2013, 09:45 AM
It's funny to think back to the great team we had under Mowbray and Collins and some of the abuse dished out on here about Steven Whittaker and what a rubbish full back he was. God I wish we had someone like him now. The sooner Fenlon signs a decent right back or the academy produces a youngster who can play there the better and we can put this nonsense to bed about Stevenson.

Aldo
01-10-2013, 09:51 AM
It's funny to think back to the great team we had under Mowbray and Collins and some of the abuse dished out on here about Steven Whittaker and what a rubbish full back he was. God I wish we had someone like him now. The sooner Fenlon signs a decent right back or the academy produces a youngster who can play there the better and we can put this nonsense to bed about Stevenson. Hateley was there for the taking in the summer and he's a decent RB is he not. I get a feeling that Fenlon Thot Clancy would be fit for the start of the season hence the reason he signed Mullen. If I'm honest I don't want PF signing anymore players and once his contract is done I wave him Cheerio and wish him all the best.

Whittaker Hogg Jones Murphy

What is give for that back 4 again.

B.H.F.C
01-10-2013, 10:01 AM
Hateley was there for the taking in the summer and he's a decent RB is he not. I get a feeling that Fenlon Thot Clancy would be fit for the start of the season hence the reason he signed Mullen. If I'm honest I don't want PF signing anymore players and once his contract is done I wave him Cheerio and wish him all the best.

Whittaker Hogg Jones Murphy

What is give for that back 4 again.

Hately had made it clear that wherever he went he wanted to play centre midfield.

Aldo
01-10-2013, 10:04 AM
Hately had made it clear that wherever he went he wanted to play centre midfield.

That'll be the reason he's not been signed by anyone. Ok next

JimBHibees
01-10-2013, 10:10 AM
I think you've read my post too literally. Maybe Fenlon did try other RBs but ultimately he signed Mullen and quite early in the window too. But quite quickly he's decided Mullens not good enough and probably shattered any confidence the guy had by subbing him by the 45 minute mark, not once but twice. Whatever way you look at it, it's poor management.

Overall I actually think the squad is quite well balanced now. A better manager could get a lot more out of them.

Surely poor management would have been not to change it when it wasnt working.

SMAXXA
01-10-2013, 10:20 AM
Personally I think some people are making this more of an issue than it actually is to be honest.

Andy74
01-10-2013, 10:24 AM
No it's not his 1st choice but that choice was to sign an untested youngster who'd been booted from our rivals, instead of making the RB position one of top priority, that's what 's getting on people goat, Fenlon's inability to see his own shortcomings. You defend Fenlon as if your like depended on an it and that's admirable but when a vast majority of posters on here say he's not good enough, tactically or managerially you just can't hack it.

The OP wanted stats, which have yet to come and he was also questioning Fenlon for persisting with a plan that just doesn't work, my goodness even you can't be so blinded by your love for Pat that you can't see that playing young Lewis there time and time again isn't working and when Maybury plays the team has a better shape. This again begs the question, why wasn't getting proper cover in that position a priority instead of signings like OTJ and Vine, two players that we don't really need, even the signing of Nelson is a panic one, when our captain got injured yet again.

Can you maybe debate things without getting over excited and personal again please. Then I'll talk to you.

hibsbollah
01-10-2013, 10:47 AM
Personally I think some people are making this more of an issue than it actually is to be honest.

:agree:

hibee_girl
01-10-2013, 11:00 AM
Personally I think some people are making this more of an issue than it actually is to be honest.

Absolutely :agree:

PatHead
01-10-2013, 11:46 AM
That'll be the reason he's not been signed by anyone. Ok next

Signed for Tranmere a couple of weeks ago. Only on a short term contract until January but played a right back in his first 2 games.

Aldo
01-10-2013, 12:09 PM
Signed for Tranmere a couple of weeks ago. Only on a short term contract until January but played a right back in his first 2 games.

Didn't realise that. At RB as well. Muchos Wonga and he'll play Alrite.

Tyler Durden
01-10-2013, 12:21 PM
Surely poor management would have been not to change it when it wasnt working.

In the game against Hearts I think it was understandable to sub Mullen, if arguably not necessary.

To then start him the following week against Gary Mackay Steven and sub him again only 40 minutes in, is not good management in my view.

Tyler Durden
01-10-2013, 12:23 PM
Personally I think some people are making this more of an issue than it actually is to be honest.

I think there are a number of people (including myself) who think this problem is indicative of Fenlon being out of his depth.

There are another group of people who think the first group are just using any excuse to bash Fenlon.

In terms of who is correct - probably somewhere in the middle as usual!

Speedway
01-10-2013, 01:33 PM
Nobody's going after the manager Andy, not on this thread anyway.

The question should be asked though, if Stevenson at right back is the only option, then what does Fenlon need to do with the rest of the formation to mitigate the impact of that situation? Has he done anything?

I'm not (again) saying it's Lewis that is the issue. That's not and never has been my point, my question (aside from asking whether someone had the stats for the goals against with Stevenson at right back, which I presume nobody does at the moment) is how do we get around that issue?

So you're saying that Lewis is the reason Vine is so garbage as an out and out striker?


Losing Maybury has given us a loss of shape at back, maybe McGivern is the weak link?:devil:

He's looked Rankety Rank recently right enough.

matty_f
01-10-2013, 01:51 PM
So you're saying that Lewis is the reason Vine is so garbage as an out and out striker?



He's looked Rankety Rank recently right enough.

Finally someone gets it! :greengrin

J-C
01-10-2013, 02:07 PM
Can you maybe debate things without getting over excited and personal again please. Then I'll talk to you.

Where's the personal bit, I stated your love for Fenlon, you do seem intent to back him no matter what he does, even when it's really bad management, you'll have an excuse all ready for him.

OH and BTW I'm not over excited and it wouldn't bother me one iota if you never talked to me.