Will the SFA comment at some of the scenes at Ibrox yesterday?

[GORDONSMITH7]

Utterly bizarre if you ask me. Do I really pay towards their wages to see them jumping about like the other Huns, whilst in uniform singing Derry's Walls ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJjSqslJt4


GGTTH

BIG G

[scottish_sleepy]

Absolute joke. Nothing changes in Scottish football. Different structure but nothing will be said about this. Will be a miracle of it even makes the papers.

[Pretty Boy]

I would have thought they (the soldiers) would have been under strict instructions not to get involved in any nonsense.

Singing along with Derrys Walls and the Bobby Sands song as well as the guy holding up the 'Keep Ulster Protestant' scarf makes me feel a wee bit uncomfortable tbh.

[cabbageandribs1875]

for the army and the navy and the UDA :rolleyes: terrorist-loving repulsive s@um :agree: same as the other erse cheek of the old firm

[Leishy1995]

Seen a tweet earlier


"Soldiers joinin with sectarian chanting with rangers fans, Celtic fans get punished for singing roll of honor. Scotland 2013"

[SurferRosa]

I would have thought they (the soldiers) would have been under strict instructions not to get involved in any nonsense.

Singing along with Derrys Walls and the Bobby Sands song as well as the guy holding up the 'Keep Ulster Protestant' scarf makes me feel a wee bit uncomfortable tbh.

Indeed. If the MOD aren`t already on top of this and asking questions of those who were suppposed to be in charge here, i`d be more than surprised.

That was a f*****g disgrace yesterday but the SFA will do nothing because, as far as the huns go, they`re scared of them.

[Miguel]

Think it's the armed services who should be looking at this rather than the SFA. A wee bit marching up and down the square for these lads I think...

[SurferRosa]

Think it's the armed services who should be looking at this rather than the SFA. A wee bit marching up and down the square for these lads I think...

Sectarian pish being sung with gusto at a Scottish football clubs ground by thousands shouldn`t be investigated by the SFA? Is that what you`re saying? Should rascist songs also be ignored by the SFA?

The MOD should be investigating their part, the SFA should be investigating SevCo`s part..........the difference is that the MOD probably will, the SFA probably wont. SevCo can do what they like in this country because no-one is willing to stop them.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i'm still waiting patiently on the SFA dishing out a punishment regarding 50,000 sectarian bigots belting out their filth in a game against kilmarnock......approx 2 years ago :I'm waiti i have a feeling it's been swept under the carpet though :coffee:



what an absolute pleasure it's been for 18 months now not even seeing/hearing the govan bigots on a TV screen :agree: the top flight league is a far cleaner place without them :thumbsup:

[rossi]

Have the armed services been privatised, or are they still funded by the taxpayer? Kind of ironic seeing them partying with the great tax avoiders.

[California-Hibs]

And to think some people actually hate Celtic more than THAT lot?! Don't get me wrong, I hate Celtic to the core, but the Huns just take it that few levels higher.

Utter filth.

[NOLA]

****m.

[cocteautwin]

Gets a page on The Guardian web site:

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/sep/29/rangers-military

[Albanian Hibs]

How nauseating

[pontius pilate]

I got posted a link on my Facebook ( I know) originated from a stenny fan who originally was a the rangers fan until the mid 80's stating that the sectarian bike coming from the stands towards then and from the troops winding up the away fans was shocking and how glad he was that he left that sectarian bile behind. When I was in the forces got out not long ago the majority where the rangers fans then the tic then us yams and sheep. Sad state of affairs at iPox but then again it is then the mod won't take much action and neither will the sfa

[proud_and_green]

I think that the military chain of command will be very concerned at this and, whilst I think it will be difficult to identify individuals who joined in with any undesirable chants etc, the officer who was in charge of organising the event and briefing the troops will have a very unpleasant interview without coffee with the General this morning and that the chain of command will withdraw support for the event in the future. This is very bad publicity for the services and not behaviour it would condone or wish to be associated with.

[Aldo]

I believe the SPFL/SFA will do nowt. Plenty of Red Hand Salutes in there as well.

That was a total and utter disgrace. If nowt is done then the powers that be have made a rod for their own backs. You could sing what you want at matches and if they pull you up just refer back to that clip and ask what they did about that.

One rule for the OF and one rule for the others once again.

It was plain and clear for all to hear on that clip.

This is exactly what's been wrong with Scottish Football and for far too long.

Shameful

[Phil D. Rolls]

Utterly bizarre if you ask me. Do I really pay towards their wages to see them jumping about like the other Huns, whilst in uniform singing Derry's Walls ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJjSqslJt4


GGTTH

BIG G

I think it is for someone in the army to ask the questions. It's utterly disgusting.

[pontius pilate]

I think that the military chain of command will be very concerned at this and, whilst I think it will be difficult to identify individuals who joined in with any undesirable chants etc, the officer who was in charge of organising the event and briefing the troops will have a very unpleasant interview without coffee with the General this morning and that the chain of command will withdraw support for the event in the future. This is very bad publicity for the services and not behaviour it would condone or wish to be associated with.
And that my friend is where the buck will stop as you said its hard to point out any individual however the oic will be standing tall this morning. Some of the individual units may also debrief the individuals sent and we may get an apology from a mod source. But them and the other lot from the weeg are the same arse

[hibsbollah]

Its no better than the racist chanting you get in Italy and in Central and Eastern Europe. The difference is theres a coverup in Scottish society, and the media are complicit in that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Made the mistake of reading the comments on that link. Some shocking stuff that might interest the police. Neanderthals!

[The Harp Awakes]

The only surprise is that the polis didn't join in. Will be well swept under the carpet of course.

[The_Todd]

I'm bored to tears with this stuff, and it's a massive turn off for me. The media will fawn over Rangers and their fans forever, it won't change.

They won't be happy until Scottish football is 38 old firm matches a season with all the baggage it includes.

[.Sean.]

Disgusting, but any notion that the SFA will get involved and do something about it is ludicrous. They're a shower of *****bags who pander to the OF and that will never change. Sooner Rangers and their scuumbag Celtic brothers **** off to England/ Atlantic League/ Mars the better. FTOF.

[LancsHibs]

So can anybody confirm, has this been reported and commented about in the 'Daily Ranger' or any of the other Scottish media?

[Sylar]

Seen a tweet earlier


"Soldiers joinin with sectarian chanting with rangers fans, Celtic fans get punished for singing roll of honor. Scotland 2013"

The only problem with that being that the Tims sing IRA/PIRA pish on a weekly basis and DON'T get punished for it at all. Complete fabrication.

Both halves of them get away with it on a weekly basis and it'll never change.

[JimBHibees]

Its no better than the racist chanting you get in Italy and in Central and Eastern Europe. The difference is theres a coverup in Scottish society, and the media are complicit in that.

Yep agree with that. We really are very spineless in this country as the Rangers debacle showed with all of the MSM petrified to tell the truth and some of them jumping ship and benefiting directly. At times the UK scoff at what they see as levels of corruption that exist in other countries, if we looked a little harder it is clear to see the very same level of corrupt behavior is only too prevalent here as well.

[cabbageandribs1875]

So can anybody confirm, has this been reported and commented about in the 'Daily Ranger' or any of the other Scottish media?


still waiting on the DR making a comment on just why they thought it was a good idea to publish what tam cowan thinks about women football players, so i doubt they will comment on the party songs at bigotbrox

[Makaveli]

Wow.

It doesn't get any more damning than that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The only problem with that being that the Tims sing IRA/PIRA pish on a weekly basis and DON'T get punished for it at all. Complete fabrication.

Both halves of them get away with it on a weekly basis and it'll never change.

I think the issue here is that the military always make out they are neutral and just do politicians bidding.

These scenes suggest otherwise. We are talking about a civil war in Britain, one where wounds are still raw. It suggests that the Army weren't in Ulster to keep the peace, but to keep one side down and support the other.

The scenes at Ibrox wouldn't have been out of place at Neuremberg in the 30s. A triumphalist march celebrating the victorious storm troopers.

High time we looked at where all this support for the military is taking us. I'll take pesters for this, but it seems to me that it is getting to the stage where you can't criticise the military, or its objectives, without being called a traitor.

Help for Heroes is getting out of hand. What kind of country relies on charity to support its ex servicemen anyway?

[Elephant Stone]

Wear your poppy with pride, folks.

[LancsHibs]

still waiting on the DR making a comment on just why they thought it was a good idea to publish what tam cowan thinks about women football players, so i doubt they will comment on the party songs at bigotbrox

Thought that would be the case with that rag. Nobody else cared to pass comment, no? Disgraceful:I'm waiti

[LancsHibs]

Wear your poppy with pride, folks.

Yes I will, I will not let this handful of idiots smear the memory of the millions that have fallen in service of their country, especially with the centenary of the great war approaching!!!! How many Hibs fans do you think there are or have been and lost their lives or been ingured over the years! :grr:

[Elephant Stone]

Yes I will, I will not let this handful of idiots smear the memory of the millions that have fallen in service of their country, especially with the centenary of the great war approaching!!!! How many Hibs fans do you think there are or have been and lost their lives or been ingured over the years! :grr:

You've missed my point. The point I'm making is that, as a country, we're expected to make a universal declaration of support to "Our Lads" and must never criticise or ask questions. I'm not saying people shouldn't wear poppies, I'm saying they should have the right to form their own opinions, unfortunately they don't.

[LancsHibs]

You've missed my point. The point I'm making is that, as a country, we're expected to make a universal declaration of support to "Our Lads" and must never criticise or ask questions. I'm not saying people shouldn't wear poppies, I'm saying they should have the right to form their own opinions, unfortunately they don't.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is free to form their opinion. I personally will be wearing a poppy with pride, I will think non the less of anybody who chooses not to!
I would take exception to the suggestion that by wearing one you are in some sort of Hun lover, which I think your comment was indirectly suggesting!
I think it's probably best if we left it here or hs thread will very quickly descend into a poppy debate, and then the dreaded flag debate. Best left all that to the OF or whatever they call themselves now:wink:

[Aldo]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is free to form their opinion. I personally will be wearing a poppy with pride, I will think non the less of anybody who chooses not to! I would take exception to the suggestion that by wearing one you are in some sort of Hun lover, which I think your comment was indirectly suggesting! I think it's probably best if we left it here or hs thread will very quickly descend into a poppy debate, and then the dreaded flag debate. Best left all that to the OF or whatever they call themselves now:wink:

I always have done and always will wear a poppy. I also respect the decisions of others wether they choose to wear one or not.

I am all for supporting our troops.

I am ex forces and have family and friends who are still in and ones who are retired. I have also lost friends to war.

However Saturdays antics were not about showing respect or support for our armed forces it was just a glorified sectarianism singalong with loads of red hand salutes. Tbh did we expect anything else.

The fans and the members of the armed services were as responsible as each other IMHO. I would like to think that their CO will be having strong words with them and denounce they re actions.

As far that lot - nowt will happen to them

[erin go bragh]

Sad , missed like the flu .


Ggtth

[Phil D. Rolls]

I always have done and always will wear a poppy. I also respect the decisions of others wether they choose to wear one or not.

I am all for supporting our troops.

I am ex forces and have family and friends who are still in and ones who are retired. I have also lost friends to war.

However Saturdays antics were not about showing respect or support for our armed forces it was just a glorified sectarianism singalong with loads of red hand salutes. Tbh did we expect anything else.

The fans and the members of the armed services were as responsible as each other IMHO. I would like to think that their CO will be having strong words with them and denounce they re actions.

As far that lot - nowt will happen to them

tbh I expected more from "Our Boys". The other lot, not really. Poor decision by the military to get involved with this, IMO.

[Hibby D]

what an absolute pleasure it's been for 18 months now not even seeing/hearing the govan bigots on a TV screen :agree: the top flight league is a far cleaner place without them :thumbsup:

Totally agree :agree:. Disgusting representation of football supporters in Scotland.

[s.a.m]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is free to form their opinion. I personally will be wearing a poppy with pride, I will think non the less of anybody who chooses not to!
I would take exception to the suggestion that by wearing one you are in some sort of Hun lover, which I think your comment was indirectly suggesting!
I think it's probably best if we left it here or hs thread will very quickly descend into a poppy debate, and then the dreaded flag debate. Best left all that to the OF or whatever they call themselves now:wink:

The Neo-Firm :dunno:

[GORDONSMITH7]

Nowt reported in the Scottish media this morning. Oh well!


GGTTH

BIG G

PS
I stand corrected, I have just ready the 'quality' Scottish press in the form of The Herald say.......

'Passions are running high but they come out in positive ways, too, and the wonderfully chaotic half-time parade in honour of the armed forces was quite something to witness. Around 400 servicemen and women marched into the ground in perfect order behind a massed pipe band. But the minute they set foot on the hallowed turf all semblance of order dissolved.

Squaddies were bouncing up and down on the trackside with the spotty adolescents of the Union Bears fans group, RAF pilots were queuing up for photos beside the substitutes as well as Broxi Bear, and there were a couple of Navy men you would swear were trying to get up the tunnel.'

We're doomed!

[lord bunberry]

tbh I expected more from "Our Boys". The other lot, not really. Poor decision by the military to get involved with this, IMO.

Yeah I also expected better from the armed forces, its disappointing to see them behaving like that. I don't expect anything to be said by the sfa or the mod, its the way things are in this country unfortunately.

[Chump]

You've missed my point. The point I'm making is that, as a country, we're expected to make a universal declaration of support to "Our Lads" and must never criticise or ask questions. I'm not saying people shouldn't wear poppies, I'm saying they should have the right to form their own opinions, unfortunately they don't.

100% agree

I'm actually surprised that Hibs fans are 'totally disgusted' about the behaviour at Ibrox.....me, I couldn't give a monkey's how they behaved as it is not a Hibs problem so why are Hibs fans so strongly opinionated about it?

I hope no one comes back with an 'Irish Catholic link' blah blah bullsh*t

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.scotzine.com/2013/01/rangers-remembrance-day-parade-branded-inappropriate/

It would appear the MoD already had to apologise after similar scenes on Rememberance weekend last year.

Begs the question why servicemen weren't told in no uncertain terms not to attend Saturdays hatefest.

[GORDONSMITH7]

100% agree

I'm actually surprised that Hibs fans are 'totally disgusted' about the behaviour at Ibrox.....me, I couldn't give a monkey's how they behaved as it is not a Hibs problem so why are Hibs fans so strongly opinionated about it?

I hope no one comes back with an 'Irish Catholic link' blah blah bullsh*t

I suppose that you are right. Should we really be surprised when we see Huns acting like Huns? Most fair minded people seeing this can only conclude that those at the coalface in the NI Peace Process need scenes like those on Saturday,which will inevitably find their way around the world with headlines like ' British Soldiers Join with Soccer/Football Fans In Singing Sectarian Songs' etc,etc, like a shovel in the puss.

GGTTH

BIG G

[Phil D. Rolls]

100% agree

I'm actually surprised that Hibs fans are 'totally disgusted' about the behaviour at Ibrox.....me, I couldn't give a monkey's how they behaved as it is not a Hibs problem so why are Hibs fans so strongly opinionated about it?

I hope no one comes back with an 'Irish Catholic link' blah blah bullsh*t

I'm sure you do.

:rolleyes:

[lord bunberry]

100% agree

I'm actually surprised that Hibs fans are 'totally disgusted' about the behaviour at Ibrox.....me, I couldn't give a monkey's how they behaved as it is not a Hibs problem so why are Hibs fans so strongly opinionated about it?

I hope no one comes back with an 'Irish Catholic link' blah blah bullsh*t
I'm not really looking at this from a hibs point of view, I'm more concerned that the people charged with the defence of our entire population are showing a blatant bias towards one particular section.

[Makaveli]

100% agree

I'm actually surprised that Hibs fans are 'totally disgusted' about the behaviour at Ibrox.....me, I couldn't give a monkey's how they behaved as it is not a Hibs problem so why are Hibs fans so strongly opinionated about it?

I hope no one comes back with an 'Irish Catholic link' blah blah bullsh*t

It's a problem, full stop. Listen to the words of the songs those uniformed soldiers are singing along with. Consider how it looks and sounds to people in Belfast, where that same military has been tasked with keeping the peace between two sides which too often boil down to thugs in Rangers and Celtic tops. Neutrality, aye?

This kind of crap from British military personnel is beyond crass... it's triumphalist and it's incendiary.

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://www.scotzine.com/2013/01/rangers-remembrance-day-parade-branded-inappropriate/

It would appear the MoD already had to apologise after similar scenes on Rememberance weekend last year.

Begs the question why servicemen weren't told in no uncertain terms not to attend Saturdays hatefest.


The Ibrox tribute was organised by the Rangers Charity Foundation to raise cash for Erskine Hospital, more than 400 members of the Army, Navy and RAF were guests of honour. The players also wore strips adorned with the poppy during the match and a mass display from the fans was displayed before kickoff.

WTF??? It's getting like Christmas: earlier every year, and further away from its true meaning. Time for a rethink about what it's all about.

[Brizo]

As with most of these issues it takes the non Scottish media to highlight them first before our local media does. With both the Scottish media and the SFA the sweep it all under the carpet mentality still rules supreme which is bizarre given our social media age. Do they really think if they ignore it, it will just go away?

I take it that the invite to the Armed Forces was taken up by Rangers minded personnel as I cant imagine fans of any other club wanting to be bit part players in a jingoistic triumphalistic exercise designed to appeal to the worst excesses of the huns support. In that regard why would huns in khaki be any better behaved than huns in replica strips.

Contrary to certain stereotypes theres fans of all clubs, including a fair few green grape Celtc fans that I grew up with, in the Armed Forces. There will no doubt be some barrack room banter when the sticky buns detatchment returns to base.

[Keith_M]

I'm not really looking at this from a hibs point of view, I'm more concerned that the people charged with the defence of our entire population are showing a blatant bias towards one particular section.


I don't think you can make that inference from this event and last year's.

Those attending will no doubt be T'Rangers supporters, desparate to parade at their home ground. If they're bigots in their civilian lives, it really should come as no surprise that they're still the same bigots but in khaki.

It doesn't logically follow that ALL the armed forces have the same view.



p.s. Just for clarification: I have never worn a Poppy, for my own reasons which I refuse to discuss on here, and I am certainly no defender of the Armed Forces every actions but I am also disgusted by the anti-poppy, anti-british sections of the Celtc support. I have no axe to grind either way.

[Hibby D]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/armed-forces-involvement-sectarian-rangers-protest-pr-disaster/6182

Pretty accurate summary

[Phil D. Rolls]

As with most of these issues it takes the non Scottish media to highlight them first before our local media does. With both the Scottish media and the SFA the sweep it all under the carpet mentality still rules supreme which is bizarre given our social media age. Do they really think if they ignore it, it will just go away?

I take it that the invite to the Armed Forces was taken up by Rangers minded personnel as I cant imagine fans of any other club wanting to be bit part players in a jingoistic triumphalistic exercise designed to appeal to the worst excesses of the huns support. In that regard why would huns in khaki be any better behaved than huns in replica strips.

Contrary to certain stereotypes theres fans of all clubs, including a fair few green grape Celtc fans that I grew up with, in the Armed Forces. There will no doubt be some barrack room banter when the sticky buns detatchment returns to base.

No doubt a lot of banter amongst the families of people shot by the British Army in their "peace keeping role" as well. Someone got this one totally wrong.

You can't blame the Huns, they either won't, or can't be told. Well paid Army officers really should have thought harder about this. Or is their neutrality a myth from the same book as the new anti-sectarian legislation.

It's gonna be mighty hard to persuade the Green Brigade that there isn't an anti Irish slant to the Scottish establishment. They were hardly the most balanced group of people to start with. This is going to have them frothing out of every orifice, with indignation. This time it's justified.


http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/armed-forces-involvement-sectarian-rangers-protest-pr-disaster/6182

Pretty accurate summary

I think Alex was diplomatic in this article. It really shows Scotland up as a bannana republic, and raises big questions about whether we can govern ourselves.

[lord bunberry]

I don't think you can make that inference from this event and last year's.

Those attending will no doubt be T'Rangers supporters, desparate to parade at their home ground. If they're bigots in their civilian lives, it really should come as no surprise that they're still the same bigots but in khaki.

It doesn't logically follow that ALL the armed forces have the same view.



p.s. Just for clarification: I have never worn a Poppy, for my own reasons which I refuse to discuss on here, and I am certainly no defender of the Armed Forces every actions but I am also disgusted by the anti-poppy, anti-british sections of the Celtc support. I have no axe to grind either way.

I doubt many people would be niave enough to think that many of our armed forces are bigots when not at work, but when they are in uniform they should act in a manner befitting of the body they represent.

[Elephant Stone]

I think Alex was diplomatic in this article. It really shows Scotland up as a bannana republic, and raises big questions about whether we can govern ourselves.

It sure does. It's pretty clear that both Scotland's press and Scotland's government are either content to let this kind of thing happen or are frightened to do something about it, either way I think members of religious minorities will be a tad unnerved at the thought of independence when this kind of thing goes on every week unchallenged in Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

It really shows Scotland up as a bannana republic, and raises big questions about whether we can govern ourselves.

Lurching off topic, but doesn't it show deficiencies in the government of the state we live in now rather than a hypothetical government of a different state we might live in in the future? These are the British armed forces indulging in a display of British nationalism after all.

[Miguel]

As I understand the law as it stands, none of the songs sung would have been actionable by the police or the football authorities.
The Rangers' fans defend them on the grounds that they are political, much as Celtic do with the Republican stuff. The only songs not allowed are the Billy Boys and the Famine Song, because they specifically refer to ethnic or religious groups.
That leaves the forces: a massive own goal for them and difficult to see what they can do to remedy the situation now, apart from apologise, or carpet some of the more errant squaddies.
There has been a bit of comment on this site recently criticising people for raising the sectarian issue, claiming that as we have our house in order, it's nothing to do with us. If only it was as simple as that. A blind eye has been turned to this for years, and will continue to be so unfortunately: it's the establishment fudge to keep the 'uneasy peace'.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Lurching off topic, but doesn't it show deficiencies in the government of the state we live in now rather than a hypothetical government of a different state we might live in in the future? These are the British armed forces indulging in a display of British nationalism after all.

I think this is a Scottish problem rather than a British one. At its simplest, Scotland's government outlawed sectarian singing, if they cannot (or will not) enforce the law in a fair manner, then it raises questions.

I have more confidence that the MOD will act on the troops' behaviour, than I have in someone from Police Scotland making a complaint to the Fiscal about the singing in the Ibrox stands.

It seems that taking political action on sectarianism is something that politicians of all Scottish parties are frightened to do. For too many people in this country it is just a "bit of fun". It was never much fun for people in Ireland, and I think what happened sends out all the wrong messages to the Nationalist community in Ulster, about who their friends are.

[Killiehibbie]

I think this is a Scottish problem rather than a British one. At its simplest, Scotland's government outlawed sectarian singing, if they cannot (or will not) enforce the law in a fair manner, then it raises questions.

I have more confidence that the MOD will act on the troops' behaviour, than I have in someone from Police Scotland making a complaint to the Fiscal about the singing in the Ibrox stands.

It seems that taking political action on sectarianism is something that politicians of all Scottish parties are frightened to do. For too many people in this country it is just a "bit of fun". It was never much fun for people in Ireland, and I think what happened sends out all the wrong messages to the Nationalist community in Ulster, about who their friends are.I don't think the Nationalists were ever under the impression that they had many friends in uniform. I don't suppose the bigots at Ibrox are any more typical of your average soldier than the ones that rape and murder in the field but it's easy to see how opinions are formed.

[Hibby D]

Lurching off topic, but doesn't it show deficiencies in the government of the state we live in now rather than a hypothetical government of a different state we might live in in the future? These are the British armed forces indulging in a display of British nationalism after all.

Agreed. It's a huge leap linking some random British military officer's naive decision to permit these lads to participate in this "celebration" without giving them up front orders to stick to the agenda, and our ability to fully self govern.

The incident isn't so much as a result of political inaction, and more about the inability of the custodians of a so-called football club to ever publicly condemn its neanderthal bigoted supporters and to continue to allow them to disgrace themselves and said club on a regular basis.

Rangers Football Club is rank to its very core!

[mutley]

I'd just like to jump in on this one. As a serving member of the Royal Air Force Police, I can assure you that this has been a big topic of conversation today and it WILL be investigated. As for the comments about not knowing who they were, by using the evidence provided they will be identified (also through the chain of command who issued each individual with tickets) and a pretty grim view is being taken from out point of view.

[Hibrandenburg]

In my 13 yrs in the military I probably met about 5 who held bigoted views and they were forced to keep that ***** to themselves. The army is a cross section of our society and I'm sure that those who participated in this disgusting charade will be regretting it soon.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't think the Nationalists were ever under the impression that they had many friends in uniform. I don't suppose the bigots at Ibrox are any more typical of your average soldier than the ones that rape and murder in the field but it's easy to see how opinions are formed.


Agreed. It's a huge leap linking some random British military officer's naive decision to permit these lads to participate in this "celebration" without giving them up front orders to stick to the agenda, and our ability to fully self govern.

The incident isn't so much as a result of political inaction, and more about the inability of the custodians of a so-called football club to ever publicly condemn its neanderthal bigoted supporters and to continue to allow them to disgrace themselves and said club on a regular basis.

Rangers Football Club is rank to its very core!

I think that sectarian considerations play a bigger part in Scottish politics than we in the east care to admit. If the attitude of Police Scotland, and our media, is anything to go by, there are still many in this country who think that what happened on Saturday is part of the fabric of our life.



I'd just like to jump in on this one. As a serving member of the Royal Air Force Police, I can assure you that this has been a big topic of conversation today and it WILL be investigated. As for the comments about not knowing who they were, by using the evidence provided they will be identified (also through the chain of command who issued each individual with tickets) and a pretty grim view is being taken from out point of view.

I'm not surprised the forces are concerned. Hopefully their action will be publicised and force the Scottish media to, at least report - and even give opinion - on what was an undignified spectacle.

[TheReg!]

This is Jock regiments through and through, I have seen it at first hand, it's probably 65%Huns 35%Tic in these Regiments......Pure and utter dross!

The ironic thing, is I garuntee not one of them has served in Northern Ireland.

[Keith_M]

I doubt many people would be niave enough to think that many of our armed forces are bigots when not at work, but when they are in uniform they should act in a manner befitting of the body they represent.


My comment was a reply to this statement by you...

"I'm more concerned that the people charged with the defence of our entire population are showing a blatant bias towards one particular section."

[Springbank]

Someone should tell independent Ian MP

He seems to think Hearts won the war

Wft are all these jambos doing at a rangers match?

[Barney McGrew]

Wft are all these jambos doing at a rangers match?


Someone chipped in for their bus fare :dunno:

[Chump]

I'm sure you do.

:rolleyes:

I'd reply if I knew what your point was!!

[Carheenlea]

While Rangers fans will continue to defy anti-sectarian regulations and be encouraged to carry on with their songs and chants of hate safe in the knowledge they will go unpunished, a Motherwell fan lets off a smoke bomb and within minutes the support are surrounded by police officers in order to hunt the guilty party down.

Something really stinks in this country of ours.

[Technofob]

This is Jock regiments through and through, I have seen it at first hand, it's probably 65%Huns 35%Tic in these Regiments......Pure and utter dross!

The ironic thing, is I garuntee not one of them has served in Northern Ireland.

There certainly seemed to be a lot of white RHF hackles on display!!

[Sylar]

While Rangers fans will continue to defy anti-sectarian regulations and be encouraged to carry on with their songs and chants of hate safe in the knowledge they will go unpunished, a Motherwell fan lets off a smoke bomb and within minutes the support are surrounded by police officers in order to hunt the guilty party down.

Something really stinks in this country of ours.

I was saying similar to my wife when we were in the car and that game was on the radio. The Tims set off smoke bombs and flares not an hour earlier in their game against Hearts (as did the Hearts fans actually) and the police, standing right in front of them, did absolutely nothing about it.

Fast forward to the 3pm games and 2 of them were being disrupted whilst the police took care of 'idiots' (BBC wording) who had let of similar in the Hibs and Motherwell ends.

[truehibernian]

First punishment should one game 'behind closed doors' ban - no home fans allowed at Ibrox.

Second punishment if it continues is banned from Scottish Cup and three game 'closed doors' ban in their league.

Work it right up them, hit them hard, and force their core fan base and club officials to self police and report (as well as the police at games). It is not even arguable that it is a 'minority' of the support - looked like a whole stand and more to me.

They are a shining example of broken Britain - utter disgrace of a football club.

[NAE NOOKIE]

A few years back I used to take my pals wee lad to Hibs training and sometimes this was at Dreghorn barracks I was surprised to see that the soldiers were allowed to hang up Ulster flags in the barrack room windows.

I fully support the army insomuch as, as far as I am aware, soldiers are obliged to fight where and when they are told. The fact that I might disagree with why, where and against whom they are fighting is something to be directed agains politicians ... not soldiers.

As somebody else said on here it is a national disgrace that injured soldiers have to rely on charity to help them cope with the physical and mental traumas they have suffered as a result of doing what they are ordered to, for better or worse, by the government of this country.

BUT:

These solidiers also have a duty, especially when in uniform, to uphold the non political image of the British army .. a status they endanger at their, and our, peril. What were these idiots thinking of :bitchy:

[Nakedmanoncrack]

The only surprise is that the polis didn't join in. Will be well swept under the carpet of course.

:agree:

Utter ****.

[jodjam]

Sky news running with the story now

[judas]

You've missed my point. The point I'm making is that, as a country, we're expected to make a universal declaration of support to "Our Lads" and must never criticise or ask questions. I'm not saying people shouldn't wear poppies, I'm saying they should have the right to form their own opinions, unfortunately they don't.

I agree with you.

Criticism of troops is practically taboo.

[marinello59]

I agree with you.

Criticism of troops is practically taboo.

Where is it taboo? It's common place. :confused:

[truehibernian]

Sky news running with the story now

Even if they are mate, Regan, Doncaster and the suits will just press their 'mute' buttons on their remotes and make cups of tea.

Jim Traynor said anything yet ? :cb

Meanwhile The Rangers version of events................

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/galleries/item/5187-gallery-armed-forces

All hunky dory as you can see :rolleyes: right enough, 'a day they'll never forget' !!!

[Jonny1875]

I am a proud Irish young man from the North and the pictures and videos absolutely disgusted me! I do not mean to offend anyone on here but did not do the British army image any good! Just shows what the Huns are like again (not referring to the soldiers) but the scarf picture was sickening. SFA need to act as do the army.

GGTTH

[marinello59]

I am a proud Irish young man from the North and the pictures and videos absolutely disgusted me! I do not mean to offend anyone on here but did not do the British army image any good! Just shows what the Huns are like again (not referring to the soldiers) but the scarf picture was sickening. SFA need to act as do the army.

GGTTH

It will be a major surprise if the SFA do anything. The Army will act.

[judas]

Where is it taboo? It's common place. :confused:

Among the media, government and a large swathe of the population. I don't think criticism of troops is well tolerated. Watching the average broadcast (this current debacle apart, which can't be so easily swept away), one would think our troops adorn halos whilst in the line of 'duty'

'Support the troops not the war'

No offence mate, but this is a big topic on its own and worthy of a long debate. One I would genuinely like to take up.

I have to resort to the touchscreen defence again and say, it's just too damned hard writing long posts on an ipad.

[GORDONSMITH7]

The original video that was posted has been pulled, however the internet escapes knowt. Pull it if they wish. If any .netter have not seen it yet Newsnet Scotland have this on their site. They won't pull the plug on it. They have cut the original and went right to the abhorrent stuff. Directors Cut.
Sky Sports. the BBC, Channel 4, the MOD and The Scottish Polis have now taken this abhorrent event on board. Now back to my original question, will the SFA.........tumbleweed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWgk6BazgU#t=19

GGTTH

BIG G

[OsloHibs]

It will be a major surprise if the SFA do anything. The Army will act.

:3wise smi:agree:

[Aldo]

It will be a major surprise if the SFA do anything. The Army will act.

I had mentioned this earlier but I have a funny feeling they will have their hand forced if other parties take action.

They won't want to look stupid will they. ;-)

[Deansy]

I had mentioned this earlier but I have a funny feeling they will have their hand forced if other parties take action.

They won't want to look stupid will they. ;-)

Even if they do take action, it's too late - if they were going to take any action they would've announced it today - they didn't so they'll be seen to have been embarrassed into doing something. The fact that any action would be brought about thanks to media-outlets outside of Scotland would just be another damning indictment on the people charged with the responsibility of our game and our own SMSM (so no change there !).

[heretoday]

I don't suppose there are many Celtic fans in the Forces are there? If there are I imagine they keep their heads down in the barracks. They do say much of the bullying culture has gone but with types like the Ibrox mob about I'd need some persuading of that.

[macca70]

Police are investigating it now but the SFA will still do Nowt!!

No wonder folk are giving up on Scottish Football.

If this nonsense had happened down south the club involved would be shut down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24333517

[oldbutdim]

I believe the SPFL/SFA will do nowt. Plenty of Red Hand Salutes in there as well.

That was a total and utter disgrace. If nowt is done then the powers that be have made a rod for their own backs. You could sing what you want at matches and if they pull you up just refer back to that clip and ask what they did about that.

One rule for the OF and one rule for the others once again.

It was plain and clear for all to hear on that clip.

This is exactly what's been wrong with Scottish Football and for far too long.

Shameful


Even if they are mate, Regan, Doncaster and the suits will just press their 'mute' buttons on their remotes and make cups of tea.

Jim Traynor said anything yet ? :cb

Meanwhile The Rangers version of events................

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/galleries/item/5187-gallery-armed-forces

All hunky dory as you can see :rolleyes: right enough, 'a day they'll never forget' !!!


It will be a major surprise if the SFA do anything. The Army will act.


Even if they do take action, it's too late - if they were going to take any action they would've announced it today - they didn't so they'll be seen to have been embarrassed into doing something. The fact that any action would be brought about thanks to media-outlets outside of Scotland would just be another damning indictment on the people charged with the responsibility of our game and our own SMSM (so no change there !).


Police are investigating it now but the SFA will still do Nowt!!

No wonder folk are giving up on Scottish Football.

If this nonsense had happened down south the club involved would be shut down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24333517


The SPFL should be well informed as to the scenes at Ibrox.
The Chairman of Stenny is a member of the newly elected Board of the SPFL.


I wonder if he was unsighted.
:confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't suppose there are many Celtic fans in the Forces are there? If there are I imagine they keep their heads down in the barracks. They do say much of the bullying culture has gone but with types like the Ibrox mob about I'd need some persuading of that.

You'd be surprised and you shouldn't let your imagination run away too much.

[marinello59]

I don't suppose there are many Celtic fans in the Forces are there? If there are I imagine they keep their heads down in the barracks. They do say much of the bullying culture has gone but with types like the Ibrox mob about I'd need some persuading of that.

Sorry, you are imagining something that simply doesn't exist.

[Titch]

I don't suppose there are many Celtic fans in the Forces are there? If there are I imagine they keep their heads down in the barracks. They do say much of the bullying culture has gone but with types like the Ibrox mob about I'd need some persuading of that.

Lots and no they don't keep their head down in barracks

[Bostonhibby]

The original video that was posted has been pulled, however the internet escapes knowt. Pull it if they wish. If any .netter have not seen it yet Newsnet Scotland have this on their site. They won't pull the plug on it. They have cut the original and went right to the abhorrent stuff. Directors Cut.
Sky Sports. the BBC, Channel 4, the MOD and The Scottish Polis have now taken this abhorrent event on board. Now back to my original question, will the SFA.........tumbleweed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWgk6BazgU#t=19

GGTTH

BIG G

Vile stuff G, not what I thought the uniform was about - just mentioned it to my RAF mate who follows Forest and Hibs - genuinely shocked as it's simply not what's expected!

Still at least this wall they are all getting so excited about will be well guarded by the sound of it - but having to do it with swords and shields? I know there have been cutbacks but this is the 21st century. For some of us anyway.

[Keith_M]

So, according to reports in the newspapers today, it seems only the squadies involved are being investigated. Are they seriously saying that no one else in the crowd was engaged in these songs? Surely that's the only inference we can take given the lack of any investigation by the SFA/SPFL.


This fits in well with the deafening silence of the football authorities as far back as anyone can remember.

[Aldo]

So, according to reports in the newspapers today, it seems only the squadies involved are being investigated. Are they seriously saying that no one else on the crowd was engaged in these songs? Surely that's the only inference we can take given the lack of any investigation by the SFA/SFPL. This fits in well with the deafening silence of the football authorities as far back as anyone can remember.

The armed forces personnel involved will be dealt with according but remember where this all started

Broom loan road stand. Home fans plain and simple. Signing sectarian bile.

If nothing is done by the football powers then this will give every club in Scotland the scope to do what they please. I say this as they would of made a rod for their own back in not dealing with this incident appropriately.


Clubs would just say well you didn't bother doing anything with them so you can't really do anything to us.

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but it shouldn't be one rule for one and another for the rest.

We shall see what evolves this next few days.

[SolentHibee]

I can speak as a serving serviceman. Lots of generalisations here about the 'Army' as if the set of bigoted muppets shown in the video are the entire organisation. I do admit that i have no experience of attitudes in Scottish regiments but can only speak from experience of the wider UK military. Regardless, for the Army, rulez is rulez, and they will be applied.

The idea that you cannot criticise the forces is also a ridiculous notion; the forces as an organisation get criticised when they do something wrong, as do individual members of the forces. And they do get things wrong, we have all sorts in the Services.

Showing support for Service personnel is a way in which the general public can show, if they wish, appreciation for the sacrifices our troops make in carrying out the demands of our democratically elected government; it does not mean the public supports the various conflicts our governments seem to be attracted to, and it does not and should not affect the need to take individuals or groups to task when they do something wrong. In fact, the support shown by the general public should impose on the military a responsibility to behave properly and to take action when members of the military do something that betrays that support.

If these guys in the video were working for me they would right now be undergoing Administrative action which could potentially result in their discharge for bringing the Army into disrepute.

Those who suggest this sort of thing will be swept under the table by the military do not know what they are talking about.

[Peevemor]

I can speak as a serving serviceman. ....

Great post! :top marks

[JimBHibees]

I can speak as a serving serviceman. Lots of generalisations here about the 'Army' as if the set of bigoted muppets shown in the video are the entire organisation. I do admit that i have no experience of attitudes in Scottish regiments but can only speak from experience of the wider UK military. Regardless, for the Army, rulez is rulez, and they will be applied.

The idea that you cannot criticise the forces is also a ridiculous notion; the forces as an organisation get criticised when they do something wrong, as do individual members of the forces. And they do get things wrong, we have all sorts in the Services.

Showing support for Service personnel is a way in which the general public can show, if they wish, appreciation for the sacrifices our troops make in carrying out the demands of our democratically elected government; it does not mean the public supports the various conflicts our governments seem to be attracted to, and it does not and should not affect the need to take individuals or groups to task when they do something wrong. In fact, the support shown by the general public should impose on the military a responsibility to behave properly and to take action when members of the military do something that betrays that support.

If these guys in the video were working for me they would right now be undergoing Administrative action which could potentially result in their discharge for bringing the Army into disrepute.

Those who suggest this sort of thing will be swept under the table by the military do not know what they are talking about.

Well said.

[Keith_M]

The armed forces personnel involved will be dealt with according but remember where this all started

Broom loan road stand. Home fans plain and simple. Signing sectarian bile....

I know Aldo, I was trying to make my point using sarcasm.

The point is, even some of the newspapers have reported that some of the squaddies were 'joining in' the sectarian songs of the crowd. That should surely be enough for the authorities to consider an investigation, not only into this incident but into the ongoing sectarian singing that has actually become even more prevalent since this phoenix club took on the mantle of its Rangers predecessor.

[brog]

It finally made P15 of the DR today but again all the emphasis is on the servicemen. Still nothing from the ostriches at the SPFL etc!

[Sylar]

The armed forces personnel involved will be dealt with according but remember where this all started

Broom loan road stand. Home fans plain and simple. Signing sectarian bile.

If nothing is done by the football powers then this will give every club in Scotland the scope to do what they please. I say this as they would of made a rod for their own back in not dealing with this incident appropriately.


Clubs would just say well you didn't bother doing anything with them so you can't really do anything to us.

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but it shouldn't be one rule for one and another for the rest.

We shall see what evolves this next few days.

They would probably argue (much like Celtc with their IRA chants) that anti-IRA/pro-UVF/pro-UDA (whatever stupid tag you wish to attach to it) songs like Derry's Walls or a Father's Advice are political, not sectarian.

They're protected by the ambiguity in the law and won't be punished.

Sweep, sweep...

[silverhibee]

Your doing a great job of stopping this Mr Salmond. :rolleyes:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8509548/Alex-Salmond-sectarianism-in-Scottish-football-will-be-eradicated.html


When will you act.

[pacorosssco]

Your doing a great job of stopping this Mr Salmond. :rolleyes:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8509548/Alex-Salmond-sectarianism-in-Scottish-football-will-be-eradicated.html


When will you act.


Sad but political hot potato(no pun). With a year to go Salmond can ill afford to see a No Rangers movement start. You can bet action from the Scottish Parliament would galvanise the huns into action to protect their 'proud history' . SFA are no longer worthy of credibility and FIFA/UEFA not much better.

Honestly most Rangers fan Ive come across are idiots. None church attending atheists who sing songs they know nothing about and generally an embarrassment to Scotland. Is there a worse group of fans in the world?. I honestly think not. Only Celtic can run them close but they are the greatest idiots in the world Rangers the nastiest.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Your doing a great job of stopping this Mr Salmond. :rolleyes:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8509548/Alex-Salmond-sectarianism-in-Scottish-football-will-be-eradicated.html


When will you act.

It's actually quite frightening to think that if Rangers and Celtic set themselves up as political parties the country would be skewed in their direction. At least that would be more transparent than trying to curry favour or be influenced by political lobbying.

Im undecided on the point of independence but feel that regardless of whether we are to be an independent nation or not to break free from a "Scottish backwater" tag and become Modern-thinking, competitive, inclusive nation we need to get rid of this scourge that is sectarianism.

The problem I see for Scotland is the more you scratch the surface and peel away the more appears underneath - merely intensified by Rangers current plight.

[BurghHibby]

Your doing a great job of stopping this Mr Salmond. :rolleyes:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8509548/Alex-Salmond-sectarianism-in-Scottish-football-will-be-eradicated.html


When will you act.

Hopefully on 19th September 2014
:cb

[Keith_M]

I'm firmly of the belief that Scotland would be better as a society if there were no Rangers and Celtic. That might sound extreme but I think the existence of those two clubs has helped prolong and expand the divisions in our society that would otherwise be limited to a few morons, mainly in the West of Scotland.

I've met a lot of people who are perfectly decent in every other way that consider it part of the culture of supporting their football team to engage in sectarian or terrorist supporting songs and rhetoric. Most of them do not come from a background that spawns such views and behaviour, it comes solely from their support of one or other of the Glasgow Ars* Cheeks.

[PatHead]

I'm firmly of the belief that Scotland would be better as a society if there were no Rangers and Celtic. That might sound extreme but I think the existence of those two clubs has helped prolong and expand the divisions in our society that would otherwise be limited to a few morons, mainly in the West of Scotland.

I've met a lot of people who are perfectly decent in every other way that consider it part of the culture of supporting their football team to engage in sectarian or terrorist supporting songs and rhetoric. Most of them do not come from a background that spawns such views and behaviour, it comes solely from their support of one or other of the Glasgow Ars* Cheeks.

Don't think it is as simple as that, a lot of these "morons" attach themselves to Rantic but the majority of these halfwits have not been near a football match in years. I just wish they would put the same effort into dealing with this as they do racism and homophobia. Make it clear it is unacceptable in society. Start with doing away with marches from both sides.

[Aldo]

I know Aldo, I was trying to make my point using sarcasm. The point is, even some of the newspapers have reported that some of the squaddies were 'joining in' the sectarian songs of the crowd. That should surely be enough for the authorities to consider an investigation, not only into this incident but into the ongoing sectarian singing that has actually become even more prevalent since this phoenix club took on the mantle of its Rangers predecessor.

Sarcasm eh. I really need to stop reading/posting in morning. ;-) (wasnae sure)

Joining in and red hand saluting to boot.

If it hadn't been in media etc I doubt the SPFL/SFA would do anything.... They'd be asking for proof.


They would probably argue (much like Celtc with their IRA chants) that anti-IRA/pro-UVF/pro-UDA (whatever stupid tag you wish to attach to it) songs like Derry's Walls or a Father's Advice are political, not sectarian. They're protected by the ambiguity in the law and won't be punished. Sweep, sweep...

Big rug or carpet I hope.... With loads of sweeping to boot.


Your doing a great job of stopping this Mr Salmond. :rolleyes: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8509548/Alex-Salmond-sectarianism-in-Scottish-football-will-be-eradicated.html When will you act.

Full of Pish and false promises like the rest. Salmond is only interested in one thing... And that's himself. There is no way he will get involved and risk the wrath of losing a lot of voters from all over the country.

For me the SPFL/SFA should send out a message right away by saying they will investigate... This is not the first time either... It should be a fine and a min of 2 home games behind closed doors and if they reoffend it doubles and do on and so forth.

[monktonharp]

The armed forces personnel involved will be dealt with according but remember where this all started

Broom loan road stand. Home fans plain and simple. Signing sectarian bile.

If nothing is done by the football powers then this will give every club in Scotland the scope to do what they please. I say this as they would of made a rod for their own back in not dealing with this incident appropriately.


Clubs would just say well you didn't bother doing anything with them so you can't really do anything to us.

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but it shouldn't be one rule for one and another for the rest.

We shall see what evolves this next few days.
are you now saying, it's not the squaddies' fault? look at some of the pictures, with soldiers holding up scarfs, with "keep Ulster protestant" etc. are they f/kin' morons? everyone and their dug could see what's on the scarf, and the likely furore from large sections of the community ,be it in Scotland-N.Ireland or Eire. those caught on camera should be jailed,at least by the military for a period to let them understand what they are MEANT to represent. an impartial professional body that is generally respected.

[monktonharp]

Don't think it is as simple as that, a lot of these "morons" attach themselves to Rantic but the majority of these halfwits have not been near a football match in years. I just wish they would put the same effort into dealing with this as they do racism and homophobia. Make it clear it is unacceptable in society. Start with doing away with marches from both sides.:agree: this should be a top priority in Scotland. Ihope it is "engaged" in any political discussion, for the vote in 2014. it could be a vote winner, as there will be a lot of half-wits that are involved in this sectarian pish, that canny put a cross in the right box!

[Purple & Green]

For me the SPFL/SFA should send out a message right away by saying they will investigate... This is not the first time either... It should be a fine and a min of 2 home games behind closed doors and if they reoffend it doubles and do on and so forth.

You could draw the conclusion that their is considerable complicit support for sectarian behaviour in Scotland. It seems to pervade right through Scottish life. From Hugh Dallas sending sectarian emails to Campbell Ogilvie's continued presence in the organisation of football in Scotland, other countries must just shake their heads at what kind of country we are.

[steviehibsleith]

Surely If Uefa/Fifa get wind of this they will act, then the SFA will have to follow suit.

[Aldo]

are you now saying, it's not the squaddies' fault? look at some of the pictures, with soldiers holding up scarfs, with "keep Ulster protestant" etc. are they f/kin' morons? everyone and their dug could see what's on the scarf, and the likely furore from large sections of the community ,be it in Scotland-N.Ireland or Eire. those caught on camera should be jailed,at least by the military for a period to let them understand what they are MEANT to represent. an impartial professional body that is generally respected.

No I am not... It started where it started and they freely Joined in with the singing and salutes and other stuff after. They are as much to blame. No question. They made the choice to join in. I am not sticking up for any of them.

Hopefully they will be punished accordingly ( I have no doubt they will)

[Golden Bear]

The media have barely mentioned it today. Now there's a surprise.

:rolleyes:

[Crossgates Hibs]

are you now saying, it's not the squaddies' fault? look at some of the pictures, with soldiers holding up scarfs, with "keep Ulster protestant" etc. are they f/kin' morons? everyone and their dug could see what's on the scarf, and the likely furore from large sections of the community ,be it in Scotland-N.Ireland or Eire. those caught on camera should be jailed,at least by the military for a period to let them understand what they are MEANT to represent. an impartial professional body that is generally respected.


Im going against the grain here but the first punishment should be to the football club for the singing of these songs. A lot of the soldiers went against the code of conduct and should be reprimanded and i believe they will, however, it's the more senior ones who should be getting the book thrown at them for allowing it to happen. The younger ones still learning about values and standards probably didn't see what they were doing was so wrong. I mean they won't be discouraged from going to games and doing the same in the stands also they probably haven't served in NI and this behaviour probably stems from home. If I was a young soldier giving the red carpet treatment by Hibs my team and allowed the adulation of the fans and to join in with them I would singing our songs thankfully not the bigoted crap the Huns sing. The younger ones should be educated and the more senior have the book thrown at them as an example to the younger ones and because they should know better.
The police need to be held to account also why they never tried to stop it. All to often they stand by and let thousands break the law looking the other way then lift a fan from a smaller side for next to nothing. Lazy policing with questionable integrity and double standards.
This will have been a huge embarrassment to the Armed Forces and people will be delt with and told the errors of their ways. What will Sevco do? Nothing as usual not even a hint of regret at the songs etc as their whole fabric of the club is built on bigotry and small mindedness. I served 24 years and as soon as I saw it I knew there was going to be a backlash I can't see the Armed services and Sevco being quite so close in the future.:flag:

[PeeJay]

I'm firmly of the belief that Scotland would be better as a society if there were no Rangers and Celtic. That might sound extreme but I think the existence of those two clubs has helped prolong and expand the divisions in our society that would otherwise be limited to a few morons, mainly in the West of Scotland.

I've met a lot of people who are perfectly decent in every other way that consider it part of the culture of supporting their football team to engage in sectarian or terrorist supporting songs and rhetoric. Most of them do not come from a background that spawns such views and behaviour, it comes solely from their support of one or other of the Glasgow Ars* Cheeks.

Do you really think that that would be the case? Personally, I think the "problem" is a wider societal one: it did not come into being because of these football clubs and it won't cease being a problem when one or both of these clubs disappear.

[steakbake]

Not sure what Salmond has to lose in tackling this head-on. It's hardly as if those who fill Ibrox and ironically enough Parkhead with their moronic singing and offensive chants are likely to vote for Independence or the SNP.

The average Rangers fan's view on independence will be to maintain Britain. I'm sure I read recently some story about how your average Celtic fan is most likely a Labour voter.

[Deansy]

Do you really think that that would be the case? Personally, I think the "problem" is a wider societal one: it did not come into being because of these football clubs and it won't cease being a problem when one or both of these clubs disappear.

Agree that it didn't come into being because of them, but, between them, they've kept it alive - if it wasn't for these two 'clubs' ('Sects' being more accurate) I honestly don't think it would be anywhere near 'the problem' or in the same numbers it is.

[Keith_M]

Do you really think that that would be the case? Personally, I think the "problem" is a wider societal one: it did not come into being because of these football clubs and it won't cease being a problem when one or both of these clubs disappear.


Peejay, if you read through the rest of my post you'll see that I didn't say it was because of the clubs. The clubs give a focal point to these views and behaviour that would otherwise be absent. Also, otherwise sane and sensible people are drawn into this sectarianism purely because it is seen as being part of following either club.

The problem would still be there but, IMO, would not be as large as it is now.

[Iggy Pope]

They would probably argue (much like Celtc with their IRA chants) that anti-IRA/pro-UVF/pro-UDA (whatever stupid tag you wish to attach to it) songs like Derry's Walls or a Father's Advice are political, not sectarian.

They're protected by the ambiguity in the law and won't be punished.

Sweep, sweep...

You're doing well. Every post you've made on this thread you've managed to squeeze something in about Celtic / 'tims'.

[jakeshibs]

I think that the military chain of command will be very concerned at this and, whilst I think it will be difficult to identify individuals who joined in with any undesirable chants etc, the officer who was in charge of organising the event and briefing the troops will have a very unpleasant interview without coffee with the General this morning and that the chain of command will withdraw support for the event in the future. This is very bad publicity for the services and not behaviour it would condone or wish to be associated with.

I am still serving and can confirm the military are all over this and it has went to the top, mentioned and every level and those individuals will be disciplined as it is easy to identify as all tickets were submitted with a nominal role and all soldiers were briefed prior to kick off regarding their behaviour. As a hibs supporter this gives me great joy as I get to discipline them..... they will not go unpunished I can assure you!!

[jakeshibs]

I can speak as a serving serviceman. Lots of generalisations here about the 'Army' as if the set of bigoted muppets shown in the video are the entire organisation. I do admit that i have no experience of attitudes in Scottish regiments but can only speak from experience of the wider UK military. Regardless, for the Army, rulez is rulez, and they will be applied.

The idea that you cannot criticise the forces is also a ridiculous notion; the forces as an organisation get criticised when they do something wrong, as do individual members of the forces. And they do get things wrong, we have all sorts in the Services.

Showing support for Service personnel is a way in which the general public can show, if they wish, appreciation for the sacrifices our troops make in carrying out the demands of our democratically elected government; it does not mean the public supports the various conflicts our governments seem to be attracted to, and it does not and should not affect the need to take individuals or groups to task when they do something wrong. In fact, the support shown by the general public should impose on the military a responsibility to behave properly and to take action when members of the military do something that betrays that support.

If these guys in the video were working for me they would right now be undergoing Administrative action which could potentially result in their discharge for bringing the Army into disrepute.

Those who suggest this sort of thing will be swept under the table by the military do not know what they are talking about.

fantastic post and very true

[weonlywon6-2]

Your doing a great job of stopping this Mr Salmond. :rolleyes:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8509548/Alex-Salmond-sectarianism-in-Scottish-football-will-be-eradicated.html


When will you act.


Maybe he needs reminded ???

[weonlywon6-2]

Your doing a great job of stopping this Mr Salmond. :rolleyes:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8509548/Alex-Salmond-sectarianism-in-Scottish-football-will-be-eradicated.html


When will you act.


Maybe he needs reminded ???

[ginger_rice]

I can speak as a serving serviceman. Lots of generalisations here about the 'Army' as if the set of bigoted muppets shown in the video are the entire organisation. I do admit that i have no experience of attitudes in Scottish regiments but can only speak from experience of the wider UK military. Regardless, for the Army, rulez is rulez, and they will be applied.

The idea that you cannot criticise the forces is also a ridiculous notion; the forces as an organisation get criticised when they do something wrong, as do individual members of the forces. And they do get things wrong, we have all sorts in the Services.

Showing support for Service personnel is a way in which the general public can show, if they wish, appreciation for the sacrifices our troops make in carrying out the demands of our democratically elected government; it does not mean the public supports the various conflicts our governments seem to be attracted to, and it does not and should not affect the need to take individuals or groups to task when they do something wrong. In fact, the support shown by the general public should impose on the military a responsibility to behave properly and to take action when members of the military do something that betrays that support.

If these guys in the video were working for me they would right now be undergoing Administrative action which could potentially result in their discharge for bringing the Army into disrepute.

Those who suggest this sort of thing will be swept under the table by the military do not know what they are talking about.

Great post mate.

I served in the RN and RNR for over 20 years and I was sickened and disgusted by what I saw. Have to say that this isn't the first year this has happened at Ibrox, there were similar scenes last year (or maybe the year before), that time I saw someone in an RN uniform waving an orange King Billy scarf above his head.

To me this whole sorry episode is a cynical ploy by the Ibrox bosses to exploit the unionist tendencies of their support, which appears to have been compounded by a real naivety on behalf of the military authorities, which does nothing to help dispel the myth the servicemen are right wing bigots.

[The Gorf]

I can speak as a serving serviceman. Lots of generalisations here about the 'Army' as if the set of bigoted muppets shown in the video are the entire organisation. I do admit that i have no experience of attitudes in Scottish regiments but can only speak from experience of the wider UK military. Regardless, for the Army, rulez is rulez, and they will be applied.

The idea that you cannot criticise the forces is also a ridiculous notion; the forces as an organisation get criticised when they do something wrong, as do individual members of the forces. And they do get things wrong, we have all sorts in the Services.

Showing support for Service personnel is a way in which the general public can show, if they wish, appreciation for the sacrifices our troops make in carrying out the demands of our democratically elected government; it does not mean the public supports the various conflicts our governments seem to be attracted to, and it does not and should not affect the need to take individuals or groups to task when they do something wrong. In fact, the support shown by the general public should impose on the military a responsibility to behave properly and to take action when members of the military do something that betrays that support.

If these guys in the video were working for me they would right now be undergoing Administrative action which could potentially result in their discharge for bringing the Army into disrepute.

Those who suggest this sort of thing will be swept under the table by the military do not know what they are talking about.


lets wait and see if anything is done. Personally I doubt it. You are quite right, maybe I don't know what I am talking about as I have never been in the military. However, and it's a huge however, I think our lads and lassies are doing a braw job wherever they are in the World. It's whoever was in charge of them needs to go on a bit of a refresher course in Man Management. I know they have all been through a hell of a lot and are maybe blowing off steam but I don't want the rest of the world thinking our military are all like this. Did the army particularly ask for Rangers supporters?

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Utterly bizarre if you ask me. Do I really pay towards their wages to see them jumping about like the other Huns, whilst in uniform singing Derry's Walls ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJjSqslJt4


GGTTH

BIG G

long time since I took any of these jesters seriously.

bring them to book!

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Great post mate.

I served in the RN and RNR for over 20 years and I was sickened and disgusted by what I saw. Have to say that this isn't the first year this has happened at Ibrox, there were similar scenes last year (or maybe the year before), that time I saw someone in an RN uniform waving an orange King Billy scarf above his head.

To me this whole sorry episode is a cynical ploy by the Ibrox bosses to exploit the unionist tendencies of their support, which appears to have been compounded by a real naivety on behalf of the military authorities, which does nothing to help dispel the myth the servicemen are right wing bigots.

spot on.

[Golden Bear]

More party songs clearly audible from Celtic park tonight. Two cheeks of the same backside right enough.

[monktonharp]

Not sure what Salmond has to lose in tackling this head-on. It's hardly as if those who fill Ibrox and ironically enough Parkhead with their moronic singing and offensive chants are likely to vote for Independence or the SNP.

The average Rangers fan's view on independence will be to maintain Britain. I'm sure I read recently some story about how your average Celtic fan is most likely a Labour voter. the average fan of both clubs, who attend matches or go on walks, can hardly spell their name, or at least half them

[monktonharp]

Great post mate.

I served in the RN and RNR for over 20 years and I was sickened and disgusted by what I saw. Have to say that this isn't the first year this has happened at Ibrox, there were similar scenes last year (or maybe the year before), that time I saw someone in an RN uniform waving an orange King Billy scarf above his head.

To me this whole sorry episode is a cynical ploy by the Ibrox bosses to exploit the unionist tendencies of their support, which appears to have been compounded by a real naivety on behalf of the military authorities, which does nothing to help dispel the myth the servicemen are right wing bigots. the same high ranking service personnel, who noted some of this in January(I think)at Ibrox, were actually in the directors box on Saturday. there is no hiding from it this time.

[I'm_cabbaged]

More party songs clearly audible from Celtic park tonight. Two cheeks of the same backside right enough.

Which ones?

[monktonharp]

lets wait and see if anything is done. Personally I doubt it. You are quite right, maybe I don't know what I am talking about as I have never been in the military. However, and it's a huge however, I think our lads and lassies are doing a braw job wherever they are in the World. It's whoever was in charge of them needs to go on a bit of a refresher course in Man Management. I know they have all been through a hell of a lot and are maybe blowing off steam but I don't want the rest of the world thinking our military are all like this. Did the army particularly ask for Rangers supporters?I disagree with all you've said

[Newry Hibs]

Made the front page of the Northern Ireland Daily Mirror. Main headline, something like 'Soldiers in sectarian blah blah ....'. Picture of 3 soldiers holding a 'Keep Ulster Protestant' scarf. Full page 9 article. Didn't manage to read any of it though. I'm guessing it will be more about the soldiers rather than the Ibrox faithful / SPFLA.

[WindyMiller]

the average fan of both clubs, who attend matches or go on walks, can hardly spell their name, or at least half them


At least they can spell half their names! :cb

[Phil D. Rolls]

are you now saying, it's not the squaddies' fault? look at some of the pictures, with soldiers holding up scarfs, with "keep Ulster protestant" etc. are they f/kin' morons? everyone and their dug could see what's on the scarf, and the likely furore from large sections of the community ,be it in Scotland-N.Ireland or Eire. those caught on camera should be jailed,at least by the military for a period to let them understand what they are MEANT to represent. an impartial professional body that is generally respected.

I keep trying to make allowances for these lads. The best I can do is say that they have grown up in a society that has tolerated, and even egged on this sort of behaviour. I'm sure they saw it as a laugh, and that they would be professionals when working.

I'm sure the army will be disappointed that the lads didn't have the sense to behave with dignity. The real shame here is that wider Scottish society will not condemn the culture that led to this behaviour.

That said, what chance do we have when no-one is bringing real pressure on Rangers to stop it. The governing body of football will not antagonise them further. Wider society is largely ignorant of what has gone on due to a media that will not report it. Politicians won't get involved for fear of losing votes.

It is for the other clubs, and their fans, to demand change once and for all. To an extent Hibs can be seen as guilty of complicity, as can any other club that accepts Rangers in the league with this nonsense continuing to go on.

The next time the weegie media tries to suggest that other clubs are "just as bad", it is for those other clubs to enter the debate, isolate the problem, and find a final solution for the OF.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

From the Scotland On Sunday...

"Other videos capture the build-up to the match, which saw two Royal Marines abseil down a stand before handing the match ball to the referee ahead of kick-off. Speaking ahead of Saturday’s match, Major General Nick Eeles, General Officer Commanding Scotland, said he was “delighted” Rangers came up with the idea of staging their own Armed Forces Day, an offshoot of the national event which takes place every June.


He said he hoped it would become a regular fixture in the calendar.


He wrote on the official Rangers website: “I very much hope this inaugural Armed Forces Day at Rangers will be repeated annually for many years to come, and that it will give you an appropriate opportunity to show your support for today’s generation of selfless, committed and courageous personnel, all of whom are enormously proud to serve their Queen and their country.”"

Astonishing - this guys supposedly senior right? "Their own Armed Forces day" - mental! Surely nothing should dilute or appear different/more important the official day - and as others have pointer out at that 3 months after the event!

[basehibby]

I think that the military chain of command will be very concerned at this and, whilst I think it will be difficult to identify individuals who joined in with any undesirable chants etc, the officer who was in charge of organising the event and briefing the troops will have a very unpleasant interview without coffee with the General this morning and that the chain of command will withdraw support for the event in the future. This is very bad publicity for the services and not behaviour it would condone or wish to be associated with.

Well this bloke doesn't sound concerned at all - he sounds like he's in it up to his neck...

"Major General Nick Eeles, General Officer Commanding Scotland said: “Today saw Royal Navy and Royal Marines personnel from......I very much hope that today’s inaugural AFD day at Rangers Football Club will be repeated annually for many years to come...."

Doesn't sound like he's too bothered - sounds like he was there and enjoying the sing song!

[PeeJay]

Peejay, if you read through the rest of my post you'll see that I didn't say it was because of the clubs. The clubs give a focal point to these views and behaviour that would otherwise be absent. Also, otherwise sane and sensible people are drawn into this sectarianism purely because it is seen as being part of following either club.

The problem would still be there but, IMO, would not be as large as it is now.

Well, I think you did :greengrin, but you're right about the high-profile given to the issue through football-related sectarianism. Yesterday's Scotsman http://www.scotsman.com/news/sectarianism-a-scotland-wide-issue-report-warns-1-3008585 and current statistics would appear to demonstrate that sectarianism is not a niche factor, but rather a "Scotland-wide issue". If society at large wanted this stopped: it could stop it, if the SFA/SPFL wanted it stoppped, it could stop it - the reason events such as, e.g. the AFD event at Ibrox are "tolerated" lies in the willingness of large swathes of society to simply ignore or accept it, surely?

[Hibrandenburg]

Well this bloke doesn't sound concerned at all - he sounds like he's in it up to his neck...

"Major General Nick Eeles, General Officer Commanding Scotland said: “Today saw Royal Navy and Royal Marines personnel from......I very much hope that today’s inaugural AFD day at Rangers Football Club will be repeated annually for many years to come...."

Doesn't sound like he's too bothered - sounds like he was there and enjoying the sing song!

He's gonna get his arse kicked fir that. The Adjutant General is already looking into events at Ibrox and this guy's statement will probably be a career killer.

[The Harp Awakes]

More party songs clearly audible from Celtic park tonight. Two cheeks of the same backside right enough.

Don't disagree but the concern here is not what the Rangers and Celtic fans sing, they've done it for years and will continue to do it, it's about hundreds of uniformed, armed forces personnel joining forces with Rangers fans in a public display of bigotry.

In many ways the lack of coverage by most parts of the media on what happened on Saturday is more concerning than the incident itself.

[LancsHibs]

Don't disagree but the concern here is not what the Rangers and Celtic fans sing, they've done it for years and will continue to do it, it's about hundreds of uniformed, armed forces personnel joining forces with Rangers fans in a public display of bigotry.

In many ways the lack of coverage by most parts of the media on what happened on Saturday is more concerning than the incident itself.

Agree with you to an extent but ultimately it IS all about what The Rangers/Celtic fans sing, to say they have done it years and will continue isn't good enough. It's not acceptable!
It will be interesting to see if the Army big wigs come out with an official comment and if there will be an Armed forces Day parade on the pitch at Ibrox next year?

[Phil MaGlass]

Don't disagree but the concern here is not what the Rangers and Celtic fans sing, they've done it for years and will continue to do it, it's about hundreds of uniformed, armed forces personnel joining forces with Rangers fans in a public display of bigotry.

In many ways the lack of coverage by most parts of the media on what happened on Saturday is more concerning than the incident itself.

This, The Scotsman has only just covered it now, the ****** had it tucked away inside its pages and as for the SFA dont make me laugh.

[Ozyhibby]

Lots of Forces personnel on here saying that this will be dealt with, reminds me of all the Herriot Watt staff on that thread saying that that issue would be dealt with. Result = Hearts still training at Herriot Watt.
Nothing will happen here and the new Rangers will have another parade next year. Probably make it a full orange walk through Ibrox.

[Brizo]

Agree that it didn't come into being because of them, but, between them, they've kept it alive - if it wasn't for these two 'clubs' ('Sects' being more accurate) I honestly don't think it would be anywhere near 'the problem' or in the same numbers it is.

Agree with that. Liverpool and Manchester have similar demographics to Glasgow and had sectarian problems up until the 1960s. Those problems have by and large dissapeared from those cities. The only difference between Glasgow and those cities is the OF; who feed on and perpetuate hatreds more or less extinct in the rest of mainland UK.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Lots of Forces personnel on here saying that this will be dealt with, reminds me of all the Herriot Watt staff on that thread saying that that issue would be dealt with. Result = Hearts still training at Herriot Watt.
Nothing will happen here and the new Rangers will have another parade next year. Probably make it a full orange walk through Ibrox.



this :agree: a cert

[s.a.m]

Agree with that. Liverpool and Manchester have similar demographics to Glasgow and had sectarian problems up until the 1960s. Those problems have by and large dissapeared from those cities. The only difference between Glasgow and those cities is the OF; who feed on and perpetuate hatreds more or less extinct in the rest of mainland UK.

I would agree too. While the Old Firm [sic] clearly aren't the origin of the problem, they're definitely keeping the fire burning. Without a public platform for those ideas and songs, I honestly believe that over time they would diminish to the extent that they would be restricted to a few nutjobs sitting at their computers in their 'King Billy says **** the Pope' underpants (or whatever the other side's undergarment equivalent is). It's certainly harder to move new generations away from these 'traditions' when they're being celebrated fortnightly with gusto at Ibrox and Parkhead.

[Deansy]

This, The Scotsman has only just covered it now, the ****** had it tucked away inside its pages and as for the SFA dont make me laugh.

And unlike the other articles - NO forum/opinions allowed, something that's usually reserved for murder-trials (for legal reasons). Basically, 'The Scotsman' , like the rest, has been shamed into commenting but you can't say anything about it in case you upset the readers that this paper is so desperate to attract these days - the rangers support !



I would agree too. While the Old Firm [sic] clearly aren't the origin of the problem, they're definitely keeping the fire burning. Without a public platform for those ideas and songs, I honestly believe that over time they would diminish to the extent that they would be restricted to a few nutjobs sitting at their computers in their 'King Billy says **** the Pope' underpants (or whatever the other side's undergarment equivalent is). It's certainly harder to move new generations away from these 'traditions' when they're being celebrated fortnightly with gusto at Ibrox and Parkhead.

And therein lies the problem - the 'Old Firm' will not do anything that harms their no.1 money-maker - religion !

[Keith_M]

Well, I think you did :greengrin, but you're right about the high-profile given to the issue through football-related sectarianism. Yesterday's Scotsman http://www.scotsman.com/news/sectarianism-a-scotland-wide-issue-report-warns-1-3008585 and current statistics would appear to demonstrate that sectarianism is not a niche factor, but rather a "Scotland-wide issue". If society at large wanted this stopped: it could stop it, if the SFA/SPFL wanted it stoppped, it could stop it - the reason events such as, e.g. the AFD event at Ibrox are "tolerated" lies in the willingness of large swathes of society to simply ignore or accept it, surely?


In that case, I apologise. Even I can get things wrong some times :wink:

[PatHead]

And unlike the other articles - NO forum/opinions allowed, something that's usually reserved for murder-trials (for legal reasons). Basically, 'The Scotsman' , like the rest, has been shamed into commenting but you can't say anything about it in case you upset the readers that this paper is so desperate to attract these days - the rangers support !




And therein lies the problem - the 'Old Firm' will not do anything that harms their no.1 money-maker - religion !

Can't believe the Scotsman Group editors thought a tweet from a Hibs player calling someone a "poof" was a full front page article whilst a hundred or so forces personnel having a bigoted singalong with thousands of The Rangers supporters hardly rates a mention. What planet do these guys live on.

[SolentHibee]

Lots of Forces personnel on here saying that this will be dealt with, reminds me of all the Herriot Watt staff on that thread saying that that issue would be dealt with. Result = Hearts still training at Herriot Watt.
Nothing will happen here and the new Rangers will have another parade next year. Probably make it a full orange walk through Ibrox.

Maybe it is because we know what we are talking about? I do not see how you can compare a university with a disciplined service; have Herriot Watt got a record of fining people or putting them in jail? If you think nothing will happen, then you are just guessing, whilst ignoring all precedent in the organisation concerned.

As far as service personnel returning to the bigotfest at Ibrox next year then it is entirely possible. Whilst I think turning up there dishonours the uniform, rangers are entitled to invite them and the military are unfortunately entitled to accept. That does not mean there will be a repeat of last weeks shameful scenes, nor does it mean that those involved this year will not be punished.

[TrinityHibs]

This, The Scotsman has only just covered it now, the ****** had it tucked away inside its pages and as for the SFA dont make me laugh.

At least they have. The silence from Holyrood has been deafening.

Am I missing something? I lifted this from the Scottish Government website. There is a lot of waffle but the highlighted bits seem relevant.

Sectarianism, and the anti-social, bigoted and violent behaviour it creates, has plagued the lives of too many people for too long.
As the First Minister Alex Salmond stated:

"...the song tells us for Scotland to flourish then 'Let us be rid of those bigots and fools. Who will not let Scotland, live and let live.' Our new Scotland is built on the old custom of hospitality. We offer a hand that is open to all, whether they hail from England, Ireland, Pakistan or Poland. Modern Scotland is also built on equality. We will not tolerate sectarianism as a parasite in our national game of football or anywhere else in this society."


An overwhelming majority of Scots support stronger action being taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour.

The full results show:


89% of Scots agree that sectarianism is offensive


89% of Scots agree that sectarianism is unacceptable in Scottish football


85% of Scots agree that sectarianism should be a criminal offence


91% agree that stronger action needs to be taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour associated with football in Scotland



The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 14th December 2011. The Bill criminalises behaviour which is threatening, hateful or otherwise offensive at a regulated football match including offensive singing or chanting. It also criminalises the communication of threats of serious violence and threats intended to incite religious hatred, whether sent through the post or posted on the internet. The Joint Action Group of the Football Summit has prioritised tackling sectarian and offensive behaviour at football and threatening communications.

Not holding my breath though.

[Kato]

What planet do these guys live on.


Planet Jambo

[Phil D. Rolls]

At least they have. The silence from Holyrood has been deafening.

Am I missing something? I lifted this from the Scottish Government website. There is a lot of waffle but the highlighted bits seem relevant.

Sectarianism, and the anti-social, bigoted and violent behaviour it creates, has plagued the lives of too many people for too long.
As the First Minister Alex Salmond stated:

"...the song tells us for Scotland to flourish then 'Let us be rid of those bigots and fools. Who will not let Scotland, live and let live.' Our new Scotland is built on the old custom of hospitality. We offer a hand that is open to all, whether they hail from England, Ireland, Pakistan or Poland. Modern Scotland is also built on equality. We will not tolerate sectarianism as a parasite in our national game of football or anywhere else in this society."


An overwhelming majority of Scots support stronger action being taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour.

The full results show:


89% of Scots agree that sectarianism is offensive


89% of Scots agree that sectarianism is unacceptable in Scottish football


85% of Scots agree that sectarianism should be a criminal offence


91% agree that stronger action needs to be taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour associated with football in Scotland



The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 14th December 2011. The Bill criminalises behaviour which is threatening, hateful or otherwise offensive at a regulated football match including offensive singing or chanting. It also criminalises the communication of threats of serious violence and threats intended to incite religious hatred, whether sent through the post or posted on the internet. The Joint Action Group of the Football Summit has prioritised tackling sectarian and offensive behaviour at football and threatening communications.

Not holding my breath though.

The problem is each of the Ugly Sisters, believes it is the other one that is sectarian. They can't see they are two sides of the same coin. I'm not surprised so many Scots want sectarianism stopped - the majority belong to one of the clans, and wants the other eradicated forever.

Look at how many Celtic fans got onto Alex Thomson for daring to suggest that sectarian songs are sung at Parkhead.

[southern hibby]

Done 21 1/2 years Royal Navy and leave the service next March time done. Been to 68 countries some of them over 20 to 30 times. Proud to have served, proud to be A HIBS FAN ( and I have let half the world know about Edinburgh Hibernian Football Club). I am also Proud to be Scottish until this sectarian bile raises it's ugly head.

Really am disgusted with bringing football to the level of terrorists. I have a question for all these bigots. If your house was on fire, kids upstairs trapped would ya stop a fireman and ask if he was a Proddy or catholic and he gives the wrong answe you stop him from going I'n to get your kids? Or would you plead with him to save yer kids?
Please for the sake of all our children can we please cut this out now. Also like to state that I have served with both prodestant and catholics and have proud to do so.

[whiskyhibby]

Done 21 1/2 years Royal Navy and leave the service next March time done. Been to 68 countries some of them over 20 to 30 times. Proud to have served, proud to be A HIBS FAN ( and I have let half the world know about Edinburgh Hibernian Football Club). I am also Proud to be Scottish until this sectarian bile raises it's ugly head.


Really am disgusted with bringing football to the level of terrorists. I have a question for all these bigots. If your house was on fire, kids upstairs trapped would ya stop a fireman and ask if he was a Proddy or catholic and he gives the wrong answe you stop him from going I'n to get your kids? Or would you plead with him to save yer kids?
Please for the sake of all our children can we please cut this out now. Also like to state that I have served with both prodestant and catholics and have proud to do so.

well said, the starting point for getting rid of sectarianism is to get rid of the breeding area for this cancer, I would ban faith based schools of any persuasion as a first step

[Eyrie]

well said, the starting point for getting rid of sectarianism is to get rid of the breeding area for this cancer, I would ban faith based schools of any persuasion as a first step

As an atheist I'd start by banning Sevco Huns and Septic. Faith-based schools are a separate issue concerning whether impressionable kids should be taught one religion at the expense of others.

[Miguel]

well said, the starting point for getting rid of sectarianism is to get rid of the breeding area for this cancer, I would ban faith based schools of any persuasion as a first step

As the only faith based schools here are Catholic, you are either implying that they 'teach' sectarianism, and are the main source of it, or that their mere existence provokes sectarian attitudes among non Catholics. Perhaps both.
Why, if the schools are the problem, do we not have these problems in England?
The schools thing is a red herring.

[jonty]

As an atheist I'd start by banning Sevco Huns and Septic.
dock them 5pts each time a song is sung. That should be 15pts a game, easy.

[Weststandwanab]

Done 21 1/2 years Royal Navy and leave the service next March time done. Been to 68 countries some of them over 20 to 30 times. Proud to have served, proud to be A HIBS FAN ( and I have let half the world know about Edinburgh Hibernian Football Club). I am also Proud to be Scottish until this sectarian bile raises it's ugly head.

Really am disgusted with bringing football to the level of terrorists. I have a question for all these bigots. If your house was on fire, kids upstairs trapped would ya stop a fireman and ask if he was a Proddy or catholic and he gives the wrong answe you stop him from going I'n to get your kids? Or would you plead with him to save yer kids?
Please for the sake of all our children can we please cut this out now. Also like to state that I have served with both prodestant and catholics and have proud to do so. Great post ! My view save anyone's kids every time.


well said, the starting point for getting rid of sectarianism is to get rid of the breeding area for this cancer, I would ban faith based schools of any persuasion as a first step Spot on


As the only faith based schools here are Catholic, you are either implying that they 'teach' sectarianism, and are the main source of it, or that their mere existence provokes sectarian attitudes among non Catholics. Perhaps both.
Why, if the schools are the problem, do we not have these problems in England?
The schools thing is a red herring. We do not live in Englandshire, it is a major problem here and the only red herring is one that should be eaten.


dock them 5pts each time a song is sung. That should be 15pts a game, easy. Great idea do you think the GFA will concur ?

[jonty]

Great idea do you think the GFA will concur ?

I think we all know that no-one will do a thing about it. Govt, media, football authorities, the fans, clubs, players. Doesn't stop us wishing though.

[Bishop Hibee]

As the only faith based schools here are Catholic, you are either implying that they 'teach' sectarianism, and are the main source of it, or that their mere existence provokes sectarian attitudes among non Catholics. Perhaps both.
Why, if the schools are the problem, do we not have these problems in England?
The schools thing is a red herring.

Agree. Edinburgh's Catholic primary and secondary schools are a success story with non-catholic parents trying to get their kids in.

Why do newco need their own armed forces day? Panders to the bigots in their own support? The SFA and Holyrood gov need to step in if the armed forces can't police themselves.

[Criswell]

The person who should be most concerned at these disgaceful scenes is Alex Salmond. I fail to see how anyone could put any kind of acceptable "spin" on this. Is this what we can expect from our independant Scottish armed forces if he gets his way; a military parade that degenerates into a sectarian rabble at the drop of a hat.

Many people, who are still undecided on the issue of independance may take the view that these dark bigoted 17th C. mindset elements are still too prevelant within our society and that it would be safer to remain within the civilising restraints of the UK lest these benighted forces be given free rein to create havoc.

[CropleyWasGod]

The person who should be most concerned at these disgaceful scenes is Alex Salmond. I fail to see how anyone could put any kind of acceptable "spin" on this. Is this what we can expect from our independant Scottish armed forces if he gets his way; a military parade that degenerates into a sectarian rabble at the drop of a hat.

Many people, who are still undecided on the issue of independance may take the view that these dark bigoted 17th C. mindset elements are still too prevelant within our society and that it would be safer to remain within the civilising restraints of the UK lest these benighted forces be given free rein to create havoc.

It happened within the UK.

[Ozyhibby]

It happened within the UK.

And with the British armed forces.

[monktonharp]

The person who should be most concerned at these disgaceful scenes is Alex Salmond. I fail to see how anyone could put any kind of acceptable "spin" on this. Is this what we can expect from our independant Scottish armed forces if he gets his way; a military parade that degenerates into a sectarian rabble at the drop of a hat.

Many people, who are still undecided on the issue of independance may take the view that these dark bigoted 17th C. mindset elements are still too prevelant within our society and that it would be safer to remain within the civilising restraints of the UK lest these benighted forces be given free rein to create havoc.you imply that only Alex Salmond wants his way ,that being an independent nation. I think you'd be surprised,that scots have a mind of their own about forming a lasting socially just equal country far removed from how it currently operates.

[Weststandwanab]

I think we all know that no-one will do a thing about it. Govt, media, football authorities, the fans, clubs, players. Doesn't stop us wishing though.I am with you.


Agree. Edinburgh's Catholic primary and secondary schools are a success story with non-catholic parents trying to get their kids in. Says who ? and no we do not all believe the propaganda in relation to "faith" skools being better !


you imply that only Alex Salmond wants his way ,that being an independent nation. I think you'd be surprised,that scots have a mind of their own about forming a lasting socially just equal country far removed from how it currently operates. Hear hear !

[johnrebus]

you imply that only Alex Salmond wants his way ,that being an independent nation. I think you'd be surprised,that scots have a mind of their own about forming a lasting socially just equal country far removed from how it currently operates.

I think most people are implying that Salmond will take no action against the bigots because it could be a vote loser next September.

[EuanH78]

The person who should be most concerned at these disgaceful scenes is Alex Salmond. I fail to see how anyone could put any kind of acceptable "spin" on this. Is this what we can expect from our independant Scottish armed forces if he gets his way; a military parade that degenerates into a sectarian rabble at the drop of a hat.

Many people, who are still undecided on the issue of independance may take the view that these dark bigoted 17th C. mindset elements are still too prevelant within our society and that it would be safer to remain within the civilising restraints of the UK lest these benighted forces be given free rein to create havoc.

Er.. British armed forces within the UK currently and during the ramp up to the independence referendum where flag waving feelings are running high and you twist it to make an anti independence point? One could argue that an independent Scotland might see less of the UJ flag waving type and 'celebrations' of it.

[Killiehibbie]

well said, the starting point for getting rid of sectarianism is to get rid of the breeding area for this cancer, I would ban faith based schools of any persuasion as a first step
My local RC school teaches tolerance of all religions. The biggest problem must be with a religion that primarily exists to protest against another.

[superbam]

The person who should be most concerned at these disgaceful scenes is Alex Salmond. I fail to see how anyone could put any kind of acceptable "spin" on this. Is this what we can expect from our independant Scottish armed forces if he gets his way; a military parade that degenerates into a sectarian rabble at the drop of a hat.

Many people, who are still undecided on the issue of independance may take the view that these dark bigoted 17th C. mindset elements are still too prevelant within our society and that it would be safer to remain within the civilising restraints of the UK lest these benighted forces be given free rein to create havoc.

So we need the British state and British armed forces to protect Scotland from sectarian and racist expressions of British nationalism committed under the British state by British armed forces...

talk about spin!

[JimBHibees]

The person who should be most concerned at these disgaceful scenes is Alex Salmond. I fail to see how anyone could put any kind of acceptable "spin" on this. Is this what we can expect from our independant Scottish armed forces if he gets his way; a military parade that degenerates into a sectarian rabble at the drop of a hat.

Many people, who are still undecided on the issue of independance may take the view that these dark bigoted 17th C. mindset elements are still too prevelant within our society and that it would be safer to remain within the civilising restraints of the UK lest these benighted forces be given free rein to create havoc.

Ridiculous comment the only one spinning anything is you.

[steakbake]

And with the British armed forces.

And at the ground of a thoroughly British club...

[CentreLine]

I think most people are implying that Salmond will take no action against the bigots because it could be a vote loser next September.

Then they will have failed to notice that his government already took action against bigotry with the action last year. This is a problem that has been going on for 500 years and is not going to be solved overnight.

[gramskiwood]

My local RC school teaches tolerance of all religions. The biggest problem must be with a religion that primarily exists to protest against another.

Religion should be kept in churches, there is no place for it in schools - just brainwashing kids = child abuse IMO.

[Killiehibbie]

Religion should be kept in churches, there is no place for it in schools - just brainwashing kids = child abuse IMO.I got RE at school and remember learning a bit about many different religions with absolutely no brainwashing. Would've been pointless as I never believed.

[truehibernian]

Religion should be kept in churches, there is no place for it in schools - just brainwashing kids = child abuse IMO.

Oh behave !!

My son goes to a catholic school, gets taught religious education which covers ALL religions and more importantly about respect and inclusion. Child abuse FFS - it's educations responsibility to teach our children about the wonderful rich tapestry of religions, faiths, cultures and countries around the world.

Do you think kids that go to an RC school sit eating communion wafers and hating Protestants ? What bloody world do you live in mate ?

They get taught exactly the same as every other youngster, the CoE, and they don't even bother themselves with religious bigotry (my son and his mates anyway) .

Oh and in state secondaries they get PSE and taught about faith(s) too.

It all boils down to respect, values and quite often it's learned behaviour from home that's the issue, not faith schools !

[joe breezy]

There should be no schools that are founded upon any religion. It's that simple.

There's no justification whatsoever for teaching children that there's a big man in the sky or whatever rubbish these deluded fools preach.

Being taught that some people are weak and stupid enough to believe in religion is fine of course and the full array of lunatic faiths should be treated equally in that regard.

[Frazerbob]

Don't try telling me that the thousands singing the sectarian bile at either Glasgow hovel are church going believers who live their lives by the teachings of any religion. The only time the care about religion is when they go through the turnstiles.

[Iggy Pope]

Religion should be kept in churches, there is no place for it in schools - just brainwashing kids = child abuse IMO.

Amazingly, the Primary School I proudly attended grew out of the very same parish church that created the club, culture and colours that the man in your very avatar is wearing so beautifully.



I was brainwashed all right. Thank ****.

[Sylar]

As an atheist I'd start by banning Sevco Huns and Septic. Faith-based schools are a separate issue concerning whether impressionable kids should be taught one religion at the expense of others.

I don't think getting rid of either half of them would make a difference.

Attendance at their games merely provides a stage for these people to air out their beliefs on a weekly basis.

The very existence of this bigotry might be endemic in football but it's not a football problem - the very continued existence of things such as Orange and Republican marches is testament to this.

[johnrebus]

Then they will have failed to notice that his government already took action against bigotry with the action last year. This is a problem that has been going on for 500 years and is not going to be solved overnight.

Action?

The Huns belt out their filth virtually every week and get away with it!

These problems will never be solved at all if President Soapy and his cronies continue to ignore incidents like such as Ibrox at the weekend.


:rolleyes:

[EuanH78]

Action?

The Huns belt out their filth virtually every week and get away with it!

These problems will never be solved at all if President Soapy and his cronies continue to ignore incidents like such as Ibrox at the weekend.


:rolleyes:

Unless I'm mistaken, the Huns have been belting out their filth every week for a very long time and have been ignored by more than just the present Scottish government. At least there has been an acknowledgement and some (albeit poor and apparently ineffectual) legislation about sectarianism - much more than any previous administrations have ever attempted.
Trying to make this about the SNP reeks of a further agenda IMHO.

[silverhibee]

Ridiculous comment the only one spinning anything is you.

Why.

It was Mr Salmond who said that sectarianism would be eradicated from football.

In a interview with BBC Scotland, Mr Salmond said. ' we've got a particular problem attaching itself like a parasite to our great game of football and that is now going to be eradicated. it's over, it is finished'.

Still not heard a thing from Mr Salmond about the incident that took place at castle greyskull on Saturday, it seems Mr Salmond doesn't want to rock the boat before the big vote and upset the hordes that promote this disease we have in Scotland, it seems Mr Salmond likes to do a bit spinning as well.

[johnrebus]

Why.

It was Mr Salmond who said that sectarianism would be eradicated from football.

In a interview with BBC Scotland, Mr Salmond said. ' we've got a particular problem attaching itself like a parasite to our great game of football and that is now going to be eradicated. it's over, it is finished'.

Still not heard a thing from Mr Salmond about the incident that took place at castle greyskull on Saturday, it seems Mr Salmond doesn't want to rock the boat before the big vote and upset the hordes that promote this disease we have in Scotland, it seems Mr Salmond likes to do a bit spinning as well.


Precisely.

And Silverhibee does not sound remotely anti SNP to me.......,


:agree:

[Vini1875]

Crazy argument about Catholic schools. In Scotland many Catholic schools now admit pupils of all faiths, these kids do not learn their bigotry in school, they learn at home and many learn the songs at football matches. The only places where I am aware of a problem with faith schools is Scotland and the North of Ireland and those that have the problem are the very people who caused the creation of the Catholic school system in the first place with their anti-Catholic bigotry.

Ibrox and Parkhead is where this problem exists and it is a football problem, because football has done nothing about it for nearly 100 years, because these clubs have carried such power and the OF themselves have done nothing about it because it is where they derive power from. It can be changed if there is the will to change it. Hibs are proof that the songs and chants can be eliminated. I think it would take political pressure coupled with some sort of points punishment for the OF to address the bigotry that exists. For most it is simply the other side who are the problem.

[johnrebus]

Unless I'm mistaken, the Huns have been belting out their filth every week for a very long time and have been ignored by more than just the present Scottish government. At least there has been an acknowledgement and some (albeit poor and apparently ineffectual) legislation about sectarianism - much more than any previous administrations have ever attempted.
Trying to make this about the SNP reeks of a further agenda IMHO.



Its an SNP governnment that is making all these false promises, so what do you expect?


:confused:

[Brizo]

As the only faith based schools here are Catholic, you are either implying that they 'teach' sectarianism, and are the main source of it, or that their mere existence provokes sectarian attitudes among non Catholics. Perhaps both.
Why, if the schools are the problem, do we not have these problems in England?
The schools thing is a red herring.

Spot on. Liverpool and Manchester have identical demographics to Glasgow, had faith schools and had similar sectarian problems. They still have faith schools but no longer have the sectarian problems. The OF are the catalyst for perpetuating those problems ,not schools.

[gramskiwood]

Oh behave !!

My son goes to a catholic school, gets taught religious education which covers ALL religions and more importantly about respect and inclusion. Child abuse FFS - it's educations responsibility to teach our children about the wonderful rich tapestry of religions, faiths, cultures and countries around the world.

Do you think kids that go to an RC school sit eating communion wafers and hating Protestants ? What bloody world do you live in mate ?

They get taught exactly the same as every other youngster, the CoE, and they don't even bother themselves with religious bigotry (my son and his mates anyway) .

Oh and in state secondaries they get PSE and taught about faith(s) too.

It all boils down to respect, values and quite often it's learned behaviour from home that's the issue, not faith schools !

Think you are putting words in my mouth there. Kids at RC schools DO go to mass, I should know mate as I work in one.

Kids go to school to learn facts NOT to be told they have imaginary friends!

In my view if parents want to have their children indoctrinated in a faith they should do it themselves by taking them to church.

I was not singling out Catholic Schools by the way, I'm an atheist, that was your assumption.

I don't have a problem with schools teaching about religion onlt with them telling kids that there is a god (of which there is absolutely no evidence).

[lord bunberry]

Its an SNP governnment that is making all these false promises, so what do you expect?


:confused:
What promises has the Westminster government made over the years?

[PatHead]

Says who ? and no we do not all believe the propaganda in relation to "faith" skools being better !


I would be interested to hear what "propaganda" you are referring to? I was Chairman of a school board for many years and I can assure you that children do not get brainwashed and according to the School Inspections the ethos of the school was excellent encouraging children to tolerate all other faiths and cultures. I am not saying all RC schools are "better" but all schools should not be tarred with the same brush. (BTW Take it you also want other "different" schools such as Gaelic, Rudolph Steiner, private and Muslim schools banned.) Finally I agree with the other poster who said many non Catholics went to Catholic schools. Over half of my school role was non Catholic but were included in everything their parents wished. You are advocating respect for all but are not advocating that Catholics get treated with respect. This problem is not a religious problem as most of the knuckledraggers who belt out songs have never been practicing any faith whatsoever.

[CraigHibee]

Why.

It was Mr Salmond who said that sectarianism would be eradicated from football.

In a interview with BBC Scotland, Mr Salmond said. ' we've got a particular problem attaching itself like a parasite to our great game of football and that is now going to be eradicated. it's over, it is finished'.

Still not heard a thing from Mr Salmond about the incident that took place at castle greyskull on Saturday, it seems Mr Salmond doesn't want to rock the boat before the big vote and upset the hordes that promote this disease we have in Scotland, it seems Mr Salmond likes to do a bit singing as well.

fixed that :wink:


totally agree that he should be saying something since he claimed it would be "finished" doesnt look too good if brought to everyone elses attention and he doesnt pass comment regarding it

[PatHead]

Religion should be kept in churches, there is no place for it in schools - just brainwashing kids = child abuse IMO.

Were you at Ibrox on Saturday as that is the level to which you have sunk? Religion does not belong in churches (or mosques or synagogue) but in the wider community and all religions should be tolerated and treated equally. That is the whole problem here which seems to have escaped you.

[JimBHibees]

Think you are putting words in my mouth there. Kids at RC schools DO go to mass, I should know mate as I work in one.

Kids go to school to learn facts NOT to be told they have imaginary friends!

In my view if parents want to have their children indoctrinated in a faith they should do it themselves by taking them to church.

I was not singling out Catholic Schools by the way, I'm an atheist, that was your assumption.

I don't have a problem with schools teaching about religion onlt with them telling kids that there is a god (of which there is absolutely no evidence).

Alot tied up there which is your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to have however it would seem a little strange that you have chosen to work in such a school.

Parents send kids to Catholic schools because they are comfortable in their kids being taught there. I cant imagine there is anything taught in such a school which the parent would disagree with so dont really understand your problem to be honest.

So now you want Catholic schools to tell kids there isnt a God :greengrin

[PatHead]

[QUOTE=gramskiwood;3762971]Think you are putting words in my mouth there. Kids at RC schools DO go to mass, But they don't have to it is the parent's choice. I should know mate as I work in one. I should know I am a parent

Kids go to school to learn facts NOT to be told they have imaginary friends! No they don't they go there to develop as people, to learn lots of things that are not factually based

In my view if parents want to have their children indoctrinated in a faith they should do it themselves by taking them to church. No-one is asking you to take your children to a faith based school so your "view" isn't really relevant here. What right do you have to stop parents choosing to send their children to faith based schools?

I was not singling out Catholic Schools by the way, I'm an atheist, that was your assumption. By referring to churches earlier that was a reasonable assumption for someone to make.

I don't have a problem with schools teaching about religion onlt with them telling kids that there is a god (of which there is absolutely no evidence). QUOTE]

How do you teach children about religion without telling them about the gods these religions believe in? Refer to my earlier point about not all things in school being evidence based. Should they also tell them about santa or should that be banned as there is no evidence that he existed? Once children grow up they will make their own mind up about God.[/

[JeMeSouviens]

What do the people suggesting the government should "do something" expect them to actually do?

They can follow up with the military as the whole thing looks pretty ill conceived and a PR disaster but as for the general mass of Huns, I don't see how there's any action they can take?

Loyalist anthems like Derry's Walls and the Sash aren't illegal. Singing at football only becomes illegal if there is a demonstrable element of religious hatred (FTP, No pope of Rome, anything involving "Fenian *******s" or their blood) or it could "reasonably" be described as "threatening or offensive" (a catch all designed to cover the fact that the Celtc "up the RA" stuff is not explicitly religious).

[southsider]

Interesting piece in today's D R abour (the) rangers CE, Craig Mather saying that fans' have stopped going to Ibrox due to on-going board protests and bad language coming from the stands. Nothing at all about the sectarian bile that errupts from the stands and each and every home game. No, for ANY one on (the) rangers board to do so would be a first.

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting piece in today's D R abour (the) rangers CE, Craig Mather saying that fans' have stopped going to Ibrox due to on-going board protests and bad language coming from the stands. Nothing at all about the sectarian bile that errupts from the stands and each and every home game. No, for ANY one on (the) rangers board to do so would be a first.

Do you think anyone has stopped going to Ibrox because of sectarianism? :confused: That'd be like stopping going to the Zoo because of the animals.

[Oscar T Grouch]

Alot tied up there which is your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to have however it would seem a little strange that you have chosen to work in such a school.

Parents send kids to Catholic schools because they are comfortable in their kids being taught there. I cant imagine there is anything taught in such a school which the parent would disagree with so dont really understand your problem to be honest.

So now you want Catholic schools to tell kids there isnt a God :greengrin

I attended a catholic school, my mother had to fight tooth and nail to make sure they didn't try to indoctrinate me. It wasn't subtle and I faced abuse from staff and pupils, initially when they thought I was a proddy (because I would not attend mass of say prayers) and then largely ignored when they discovered I was atheist. I was left in classrooms on my own for whole days while the other pupils attended things like 1st confession and 1st communion, I mean no supervision, no lunch, no access to playground, just told to sit and read this was the 70s when child abuse was largely ignored.

PS I think you'll find you work for the council and not the school, so it might not be his choice to work there too.

[southsider]

Do you think anyone has stopped going to Ibrox because of sectarianism? :confused: That'd be like stopping going to the Zoo because of the animals.
Perhaps i never put my point well enough but i was trying to say that someone on their board should take the bull by the horns and do something about it. OMG is this 2013 or what ?

[JimBHibees]

I attended a catholic school, my mother had to fight tooth and nail to make sure they didn't try to indoctrinate me. It wasn't subtle and I faced abuse from staff and pupils, initially when they thought I was a proddy (because I would not attend mass of say prayers) and then largely ignored when they discovered I was atheist. I was left in classrooms on my own for whole days while the other pupils attended things like 1st confession and 1st communion, I mean no supervision, no lunch, no access to playground, just told to sit and read this was the 70s when child abuse was largely ignored.

PS I think you'll find you work for the council and not the school, so it might not be his choice to work there too.

Doesnt sound like you had a very good experience which no doubt should not have happened however I am sure there are many more schools which do include non-catholic kids in the more faith based parts.

[JimBHibees]

Why.

It was Mr Salmond who said that sectarianism would be eradicated from football.

In a interview with BBC Scotland, Mr Salmond said. ' we've got a particular problem attaching itself like a parasite to our great game of football and that is now going to be eradicated. it's over, it is finished'.

Still not heard a thing from Mr Salmond about the incident that took place at castle greyskull on Saturday, it seems Mr Salmond doesn't want to rock the boat before the big vote and upset the hordes that promote this disease we have in Scotland, it seems Mr Salmond likes to do a bit spinning as well.

Fair point and you are right he should be commenting on it as should every other politician and media outlet in the country yet there is an institutional cowardice in many areas IMO. He will be walking on eggshells I would presume though he did bring in the Sectarian bill however i think there has been a fair degree of resistance from the courts.

[Iggy Pope]

Think you are putting words in my mouth there. Kids at RC schools DO go to mass, I should know mate as I work in one.

Kids go to school to learn facts NOT to be told they have imaginary friends!

In my view if parents want to have their children indoctrinated in a faith they should do it themselves by taking them to church.

I was not singling out Catholic Schools by the way, I'm an atheist, that was your assumption.

I don't have a problem with schools teaching about religion onlt with them telling kids that there is a god (of which there is absolutely no evidence).

Ah. An atheist. One of the new puritans. Worse than the clergy for ramming their opinions down folks throats.
I don't go to mass as I am a lazy sod. But when I did go, it never turned me or any of my extended family into brainwashed zealots. AND I learned lots of 'facts' at my evil faith school.
You should have stuck in as well. You might not be in such a dead end industry as education!

[Makaveli]

Doesnt sound like you had a very good experience which no doubt should not have happened however I am sure there are many more schools which do include non-catholic kids in the more faith based parts.

And to take the point further, faith-based exclusion isn't exclusive to faith-based schools.

I went to a regular state primary and there was a Jehova's Witness in our class who was often left alone for hours while we made cardboard Santas and sang songs about Jesus. He generally got it tight.

This was late 90s.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

And to take the point further, faith-based exclusion isn't exclusive to faith-based schools.

I went to a regular state primary and there was a Jehova's Witness in our class who was often left alone for hours while we made cardboard Santas and sang songs about Jesus. He generally got it tight.

This was late 90s.

But did you take one of his leaflets? ;)

[truehibernian]

Think you are putting words in my mouth there. Kids at RC schools DO go to mass, I should know mate as I work in one.

Kids go to school to learn facts NOT to be told they have imaginary friends!

In my view if parents want to have their children indoctrinated in a faith they should do it themselves by taking them to church.

I was not singling out Catholic Schools by the way, I'm an atheist, that was your assumption.

Not putting words in anyone's mouth - everyone is entitled to opinions, I don't agree with yours.

I went to a non faith primary school as a child and every morning we had a 'service' where we would have to sing two hymns, hear what the headteacher had to say, then go to our class - I still recall the words to 'Oh Jesus I have Promised' to this very day :agree: Am I religious - I'd say no, but I have belief. Was it centred around religion that we did that at primary school - not one bit, in fact, the religious differences at that early age weren't even a concept for pupils so young. We just sat down, crossed our legs, opened the wee red book and prentended to sing (as we were that bad at singing). I also was made to go to Sunday School - probably to get me out my parents hair and also because I was allowed to play football for my youth club afterwards if I went.

I do recall however my parents bringing me up to respect people and to 'remember where you come from' - that saying meaning remember the way you were brought up and don't bring trouble to our door, not remember what country you are from !

You say pupils go to school to learn facts - yes, but they also go to school to learn positive behaviour, responsible citizenship, inclusion, respect and values. But is religion not part of history, geography, modern studies, and PSE ? Surely if one studies history, say WW2, then the Holocaust forms part of what pupils will learn - and they may of course learn a little about the Jewish faith along the way ? In Modern Studies they may do projects on 9/11 - and thus cover Islam as part of it - are these not facts ?

To me it is you wanting to use schools as an excuse for a downturn in respect and common decency and courtesy or encouraging division in society. But that my friend falls to parents, families and carers -as well as role models in the community and schools to instill in our children. It's all our roles to broaden the mind and see beyond ignorance. How can one understand issues around the world that may be faith related without first gaining some knowledge on the subject/faith. To simply say 'go to church' if you are religious is folly. What about people who want to study it or research it, to understand the concepts of religions ?

A community should be able to embrace a synagogue, mosque, catholic school, convent, church (any denomination), community centre, non faith school, sports centre without people questioning their place in society or indeed dismissing them completely - choice is good in my opinion. We even accepted Hearts into the community :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

fixed that :wink:


totally agree that he should be saying something since he claimed it would be "finished" doesnt look too good if brought to everyone elses attention and he doesnt pass comment regarding it

Agreed, suspect what wee eck meant was that now that he had fired off a quick sound bite on what was a newsworthy issue of the day that was him finished and he was now off to make a populist vote winning statement on the whatever the next issue is.

Follow through on this one? Don't make me laugh.

[Onion]

Why.

It was Mr Salmond who said that sectarianism would be eradicated from football.

In a interview with BBC Scotland, Mr Salmond said. ' we've got a particular problem attaching itself like a parasite to our great game of football and that is now going to be eradicated. it's over, it is finished'.

Still not heard a thing from Mr Salmond about the incident that took place at castle greyskull on Saturday, it seems Mr Salmond doesn't want to rock the boat before the big vote and upset the hordes that promote this disease we have in Scotland, it seems Mr Salmond likes to do a bit spinning as well.

Agreed. Political self interest trumps the law it seems. Upset the Huns and they might be tempted to learn how to sign their name (X).

[JeMeSouviens]

Agreed. Political self interest trumps the law it seems. Upset the Huns and they might be tempted to learn how to sign their name (X).

What law do you think has been broken?

[whiskyhibby]

Crazy argument about Catholic schools. In Scotland many Catholic schools now admit pupils of all faiths, these kids do not learn their bigotry in school, they learn at home and many learn the songs at football matches. The only places where I am aware of a problem with faith schools is Scotland and the North of Ireland and those that have the problem are the very people who caused the creation of the Catholic school system in the first place with their anti-Catholic bigotry.

Ibrox and Parkhead is where this problem exists and it is a football problem, because football has done nothing about it for nearly 100 years, because these clubs have carried such power and the OF themselves have done nothing about it because it is where they derive power from. It can be changed if there is the will to change it. Hibs are proof that the songs and chants can be eliminated. I think it would take political pressure coupled with some sort of points punishment for the OF to address the bigotry that exists. For most it is simply the other side who are the problem.

Sorry but you completely misunderstand the point, it's not about Cathloics, Protestants, Muslims, Hare Chrisna etc it's about having young people subjected to doctrine and religious dogma that says only our religious persuasion knows the ' real truth'. That's the breeding ground for the crap that happens at Ibrox and Parkhead albeit with the odd agnostic who just likes singing the songs.......

[Miguel]

Anti-Catholicism in Scotland has a long history. Any genuine religious motivation for this died out years ago. Native-Irish rivalry more or less began to go the same way, post war. It's pure tribalism now, based on nothing very much. But it shouldn't be under estimated: one of the concerns about an independent Scotland is that, if things weren't going well, some bright spark on the political right would try and revive these divisions.