Propaganda

[Hibs Giant]

Has anyone ever thought that propaganda is useless if you know it's propaganda?
Having recently been in Vietnam, where the government regularly announce party political broadcasts (in a one party state) over loud speakers every major town, it seems very obvious that it is alive and well in this 'communist' country. However if the ordinary Vietnamese were listening with the same cynicism as me, then surely the message would be entirely wasted.
When we listen to the BBC, CNN, ITV, Sky News, etc what is it we think we are listening to?
It was a fundamental principal of the pioneers of propaganda, namely Joseph Gerbells and Edward Bernays, that there must be singularity of message and plurality of source to convey an effective message.
Does anyone else feel that perhaps rather than arrogantly assuming that propaganda is something that only the less educated peoples of the world need worry about, that we maybe unknowingly equally exposed to it in the west?

[Hibrandenburg]

No, otherwise people wouldn't pay huge amounts of money on advertising. Advertising is nothing more than corporate propaganda and we're all aware that it's advertising when we watch it but it still works.

[s.a.m]

Has anyone ever thought that propaganda is useless if you know it's propaganda?
Having recently been in Vietnam, where the government regularly announce party political broadcasts (in a one party state) over loud speakers every major town, it seems very obvious that it is alive and well in this 'communist' country. However if the ordinary Vietnamese were listening with the same cynicism as me, then surely the message would be entirely wasted. When we listen to the BBC, CNN, ITV, Sky News, etc what is it we think we are listening to?
It was a fundamental principal of the pioneers of propaganda, namely Joseph Gerbells and Edward Bernays, that there must be singularity of message and plurality of source to convey an effective message.
Does anyone else feel that perhaps rather than arrogantly assuming that propaganda is something that only the less educated peoples of the world need worry about, that we maybe unknowingly equally exposed to it in the west?

Perhaps the ordinary Vietnamese people, although they recognise it to be propaganda, broadly agree with what's being said?

People go to church every Sunday and listen to the same teachings, in different contexts, about human behaviour. They absolutely know that the minister or priest keeps repeating these messages to try to influence their behaviour, but because they buy into the message they probably feel rewarded when they've made moral choices. When they've made a bad choice, the teaching that they hear in church makes them uncomfortable about what they've done, and perhaps makes them think twice about it next time.:dunno:

If you were strongly opposed to a message, then I daresay no amount of propaganda would sway you. If you're that way inclined, then it helps reinforce your behaviour, and your sense of belonging to that community / idea / lifestyle, or whatever it is that's being sold. As Hiberlin points out, advertising works on the same principle, and it works to a sufficient degree for companies to spend a fortune on it. And it's not only about 'converting' people, but about reinforcing behaviour and choices.

Our government, and I'm sure every other, uses 'propaganda' when it wants to persuade us to go along with change, or particular policies, and it's not always necessarily done in bad faith. Before launching a policy, they might publish data on a subject, and get their people on the tv and radio to big it up. Sometimes it genuinely makes a case for action, sometimes (see 'dodgy dossier') it's bad or selective data which is an attempt to retrospectively justify a course of action, and to try to win people round. The style varies across cultures, but I don't think there's any doubt that we're all subject to propaganda. And occasionally it's well-intentioned and entirely non-cynical or self-serving.

[Hibs Giant]

No, otherwise people wouldn't pay huge amounts of money on advertising. Advertising is nothing more than corporate propaganda and we're all aware that it's advertising when we watch it but it still works.

Yeah. That's true. 'Useless' was the wrong word. 'Much less effective' is maybe what I should have said. For example if you were unaware that adverts were corporate propaganda, and you saw them as true, unbiased reflections of how products might make you feel, or impact your life, then you be at serious risk of being manipulated.

[Hibs Giant]

From my own point of view I feel that I have been naive about the level of propaganda, particularly political and historical, that I have been exposed to. One example would be the insinuation that the British empire is something that Britain can be proud of, rather than ashamed of.

[Hibrandenburg]

From my own point of view I feel that I have been naive about the level of propaganda, particularly political and historical, that I have been exposed to. One example would be the insinuation that the British empire is something that Britain can be proud of, rather than ashamed of.

Think everyone who ever lived has had reason to regret believing something they were taught. Propaganda begins at home with your parents instilling their values on their children.

[(((Fergus)))]

From my own point of view I feel that I have been naive about the level of propaganda, particularly political and historical, that I have been exposed to. One example would be the insinuation that the British empire is something that Britain can be proud of, rather than ashamed of.

Definitely. Our professional media, by and large, has certain "narratives" on issues that must be upheld at all times and this leads to imbalanced reporting AKA propaganda. Thankfully we now have the Internet as an alternative however that too is dependent on the honesty of one's own desire to know the truth and can therefore be even more misleading than the regular media.

[PeeJay]

From my own point of view I feel that I have been naive about the level of propaganda, particularly political and historical, that I have been exposed to. One example would be the insinuation that the British empire is something that Britain can be proud of, rather than ashamed of.

See no reason myself for Britain to be ashamed of the "British Empire" - maybe your exposure here to propoganda has swayed your opinion regarding this issue? Who is Joseph Gerbells by the way?

[HibbySpurs]

Of course we are exposed to propaganda. You just have to look at the BBC'S behaviour in the last month to know that, ramping away with a pro "blow Syria off the face off the earth" agenda. Although this (IMO) may not be government lead but more a desire on the BBC'S part to have a big juicy news story that comes with lots of free live big bangs and flashes, shots of missiles being launched etc... Which makes for great tv news... Notice how suddenly once the US & Russia set off on a path of diplomatic resolution the bbc have dropped the story almost entirely.

It's like the advertising statement above, the bbc dramatise everything they can to get viewer figures up as it makes them look good.

[marinello59]

Of course we are exposed to propaganda. You just have to look at the BBC'S behaviour in the last month to know that, ramping away with a pro "blow Syria off the face off the earth" agenda. Although this (IMO) may not be government lead but more a desire on the BBC'S part to have a big juicy news story that comes with lots of free live big bangs and flashes, shots of missiles being launched etc... Which makes for great tv news... Notice how suddenly once the US & Russia set off on a path of diplomatic resolution the bbc have dropped the story almost entirely.

It's like the advertising statement above, the bbc dramatise everything they can to get viewer figures up as it makes them look good.

That seems to be at odds with the popular view that the BBC is dominated by a left wing agenda.That might just be propaganda though. I'm confused now.

[Rasta_Hibs]

That seems to be at odds with the popular view that the BBC is dominated by a left wing agenda.That might just be propaganda though. I'm confused now.

My thoughts of the BBC coverage on the Syria crisis were that they were very much pro-war on Syria.

[RyeSloan]

Of course we are exposed to propaganda. You just have to look at the BBC'S behaviour in the last month to know that, ramping away with a pro "blow Syria off the face off the earth" agenda. Although this (IMO) may not be government lead but more a desire on the BBC'S part to have a big juicy news story that comes with lots of free live big bangs and flashes, shots of missiles being launched etc... Which makes for great tv news... Notice how suddenly once the US & Russia set off on a path of diplomatic resolution the bbc have dropped the story almost entirely.

It's like the advertising statement above, the bbc dramatise everything they can to get viewer figures up as it makes them look good.

Dropped the story almost entirely? What a crock of sh*t....it's been pretty much their number 1 news story for weeks on their website with regular articles describing the diplomatic steps being taken to rid Syria of the chemical weapons.

The BBC is not perfect (what news outlet is) but to accuse them of being sabre ratting pro war mongers who drop the story as soon as they realise no bombs will be dropped soon is just daft.

[givescotlandfreedom]

Fox News in the US is particularly biased to the looney right IMO. One pundit called Glen Beck was rather worrying and laughable at the same time.

[marinello59]

My thoughts of the BBC coverage on the Syria crisis were that they were very much pro-war on Syria.

Nope, didn't get that. I thought they were doing a decent job of providing pretty unbiased coverage. They have got British in their title though so they are probably one of the most evil broadcasters in the world.

[twiceinathens]

Fox News in the US is particularly biased to the looney right IMO. One pundit called Glen Beck was rather worrying and laughable at the same time.

Would fail the description of the term "news" under any form of Trades Description Act. Glen Beck is just laughable for anyone who is not on the right wing of the Tea Party.

[HibbySpurs]

Dropped the story almost entirely? What a crock of sh*t....it's been pretty much their number 1 news story for weeks on their website with regular articles describing the diplomatic steps being taken to rid Syria of the chemical weapons.

The BBC is not perfect (what news outlet is) but to accuse them of being sabre ratting pro war mongers who drop the story as soon as they realise no bombs will be dropped soon is just daft.

I agree it's still prominent on the net but please watch the news channel or breakfast/6/10 o'clock bulletins and I think you'll find it's generally noticeable by its absence. Perhaps I should have been clearer that I was talking about their broadcast media rather than online, apologies for that. And I'm very far from left wing in case anyone is wondering.

[hibsbollah]

In the West we're not subject to the kind of overt propaganda that you see in North Korea, but thats because it would be ineffective here, not because our State apparatus dont want to control our thinking just as much. What we have instead is a subtle narrowing of the terms of debate. The story of Syria has been packaged for our consumption and distilled down to 'bad guys using chemical weapons to kill their own people, do we as the good guys 'intervene' or not?' Ignoring all the complexities and subtleties involved...Noam Chomsky has written persuasively about this 'manufacturing of consent' through the media.

Anyone even remember Fallujah, far less seen a story about it recently?

http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=741%3Adamning-evidence-becomes-no-clear-evidence-much-delayed-report-on-congenital-birth-defects-in-iraq&catid=51%3Aalerts-2013&Itemid=202

[RyeSloan]

In the West we're not subject to the kind of overt propaganda that you see in North Korea, but thats because it would be ineffective here, not because our State apparatus dont want to control our thinking just as much. What we have instead is a subtle narrowing of the terms of debate. The story of Syria has been packaged for our consumption and distilled down to 'bad guys using chemical weapons to kill their own people, do we as the good guys 'intervene' or not?' Ignoring all the complexities and subtleties involved...Noam Chomsky has written persuasively about this 'manufacturing of consent' through the media.

Anyone even remember Fallujah, far less seen a story about it recently?

http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=741%3Adamning-evidence-becomes-no-clear-evidence-much-delayed-report-on-congenital-birth-defects-in-iraq&catid=51%3Aalerts-2013&Itemid=202

http://biasedbbc.org/blog/2010/03/04/fallujah-horror/

http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2013/04/04/depleted-uranium-the-bbcs-john-simpson-does-a-hatchet-job-on-fallujahs-genetically-damaged-children/

Just goes to show how something can be interpreted many ways.

To be honest I think there is plenty of sources on which people can take stock of most situations....I just don't get this argument that we are somehow being deprived of a wide range of views on world events, there are many more ways to gain information now and read diverse views on a subject than there was 20 years ago when news was disseminated by the few to the many.

[HKhibby]

From my own point of view I feel that I have been naive about the level of propaganda, particularly political and historical, that I have been exposed to. One example would be the insinuation that the British empire is something that Britain can be proud of, rather than ashamed of.

Why must people be ashamed of the British Empire?, maybe for the political correct left wing leaning persons in the UK or Europe to be more to the point, yes it has no context today or in the modern world and would probably not happen ever again or will not happen ever again with any of the former colonial powers..ie: France, Portugal, Spain etc.., not too mention Germany!

Indeed if it were not for the British Empire in a lot of places, they simply would not exist nowadays, ie: for trade and the major financial and market market economies that are run properly, and create wealth and jobs worldwide...not like Europe or the U.S.

the British Empire has not existed for a very long time now, indeed more or less after ww11, it then became overseas territories etc.., or a lot of places becoming independent countries, still within the Commonwealth mind you.

I live in Hong Kong, and have for a long time now, and will not leave HK, but if you think for one minute that most HK Chinese, hate Britain and love China...you are very wrong, completely the opposite!, Singapore is happy to be in the Commonwealth, as is most commonwealth countries, i have been lucky to have been in some of the other British Overseas territories in the caribbean, and again they do not wish to be given away or let loose etc.. to other countries...especially the U.S. who would love to have overseas territories etc..but every time they have had somewhere they mess it up like everything they more or less touch.

Look at all the former British Empire places, some now in the commonwealth, very prosperous and all left with sound economies and infrastructure, why do you think China so badly wanted to get their hands on Hong Kong?...because they would have been incapable of creating anything like HK nor have the know how...but do know how to just copy everyone and everywhere to create large economies that will eventually bring down the fall of the socialist / communist one party state in China and adopt the HK way of life, the same as Macau (former Portuguese Colony/territory), now the largest gambling hub in the world...Vegas is minature compared to it!, yet gambling is banned in mainland China!...but they wanted Macau!

Back to the original topic with this...Propaganda...yes that is China all over...including the present HK government trying to brainwash school kids under a certain age about the Motherland! and how wonderful it is and how prosperous it is!

Yes the British Empire was not perfect, and probably did some bad things in some of the countries it had, and some things it should be ashamed of as well, but to label it like they all do over there as awful and barbaric beats me, after all places like Australia, NZ, Fiji, Canada, HK, Singapore, Malaysia, other African Countries, Caribbean countries / Territories etc...etc... did'nt do too badly out of it all.

What does do too badly out of things is belonging to artificially created economies like the EU etc..and yes talking of propaganda...i would say really comes out of that institution.

[Twa Cairpets]

Why must people be ashamed of the British Empire?, maybe for the political correct left wing leaning persons in the UK or Europe to be more to the point, yes it has no context today or in the modern world and would probably not happen ever again or will not happen ever again with any of the former colonial powers..ie: France, Portugal, Spain etc.., not too mention Germany!

Indeed if it were not for the British Empire in a lot of places, they simply would not exist nowadays, ie: for trade and the major financial and market market economies that are run properly, and create wealth and jobs worldwide...not like Europe or the U.S.

the British Empire has not existed for a very long time now, indeed more or less after ww11, it then became overseas territories etc.., or a lot of places becoming independent countries, still within the Commonwealth mind you.

I live in Hong Kong, and have for a long time now, and will not leave HK, but if you think for one minute that most HK Chinese, hate Britain and love China...you are very wrong, completely the opposite!, Singapore is happy to be in the Commonwealth, as is most commonwealth countries, i have been lucky to have been in some of the other British Overseas territories in the caribbean, and again they do not wish to be given away or let loose etc.. to other countries...especially the U.S. who would love to have overseas territories etc..but every time they have had somewhere they mess it up like everything they more or less touch.

Look at all the former British Empire places, some now in the commonwealth, very prosperous and all left with sound economies and infrastructure, why do you think China so badly wanted to get their hands on Hong Kong?...because they would have been incapable of creating anything like HK nor have the know how...but do know how to just copy everyone and everywhere to create large economies that will eventually bring down the fall of the socialist / communist one party state in China and adopt the HK way of life, the same as Macau (former Portuguese Colony/territory), now the largest gambling hub in the world...Vegas is minature compared to it!, yet gambling is banned in mainland China!...but they wanted Macau!

Back to the original topic with this...Propaganda...yes that is China all over...including the present HK government trying to brainwash school kids under a certain age about the Motherland! and how wonderful it is and how prosperous it is!

Yes the British Empire was not perfect, and probably did some bad things in some of the countries it had, and some things it should be ashamed of as well, but to label it like they all do over there as awful and barbaric beats me, after all places like Australia, NZ, Fiji, Canada, HK, Singapore, Malaysia, other African Countries, Caribbean countries / Territories etc...etc... did'nt do too badly out of it all.

What does do too badly out of things is belonging to artificially created economies like the EU etc..and yes talking of propaganda...i would say really comes out of that institution.

OK HK, who typed this for you? There are only 16 ellipses and 5 exclamation marks. What's going on?

While disturbingly for me there are bits of your post I agree with, you do tend to mash logic. What was the British Empire but an artificially created economy enforced militarily? I think the Empire was of its time, and was responsible for some really good stuff and some really bad stuff. Unlike Stalin's Russia or Nazi Germany which are culturally, objectively evil and indefensible, that level of black and white doesn't exist for the Empire and needs to be viewed accordingly.

When was World War eleven by the way? Did I miss the last nine?

[Hibrandenburg]

Why must people be ashamed of the British Empire?, maybe for the political correct left wing leaning persons in the UK or Europe to be more to the point, yes it has no context today or in the modern world and would probably not happen ever again or will not happen ever again with any of the former colonial powers..ie: France, Portugal, Spain etc.., not too mention Germany!

Indeed if it were not for the British Empire in a lot of places, they simply would not exist nowadays, ie: for trade and the major financial and market market economies that are run properly, and create wealth and jobs worldwide...not like Europe or the U.S.

the British Empire has not existed for a very long time now, indeed more or less after ww11, it then became overseas territories etc.., or a lot of places becoming independent countries, still within the Commonwealth mind you.

I live in Hong Kong, and have for a long time now, and will not leave HK, but if you think for one minute that most HK Chinese, hate Britain and love China...you are very wrong, completely the opposite!, Singapore is happy to be in the Commonwealth, as is most commonwealth countries, i have been lucky to have been in some of the other British Overseas territories in the caribbean, and again they do not wish to be given away or let loose etc.. to other countries...especially the U.S. who would love to have overseas territories etc..but every time they have had somewhere they mess it up like everything they more or less touch.

Look at all the former British Empire places, some now in the commonwealth, very prosperous and all left with sound economies and infrastructure, why do you think China so badly wanted to get their hands on Hong Kong?...because they would have been incapable of creating anything like HK nor have the know how...but do know how to just copy everyone and everywhere to create large economies that will eventually bring down the fall of the socialist / communist one party state in China and adopt the HK way of life, the same as Macau (former Portuguese Colony/territory), now the largest gambling hub in the world...Vegas is minature compared to it!, yet gambling is banned in mainland China!...but they wanted Macau!

Back to the original topic with this...Propaganda...yes that is China all over...including the present HK government trying to brainwash school kids under a certain age about the Motherland! and how wonderful it is and how prosperous it is!

Yes the British Empire was not perfect, and probably did some bad things in some of the countries it had, and some things it should be ashamed of as well, but to label it like they all do over there as awful and barbaric beats me, after all places like Australia, NZ, Fiji, Canada, HK, Singapore, Malaysia, other African Countries, Caribbean countries / Territories etc...etc... did'nt do too badly out of it all.

What does do too badly out of things is belonging to artificially created economies like the EU etc..and yes talking of propaganda...i would say really comes out of that institution.

****! How did I manage to sleep through 9 World Wars?

[Rasta_Hibs]

The media seems to project an image of a society that is getting more violent when in reality violent crime has been falling for years. Can that be classed as propaganda?

[hibsbollah]

HK, if you knew anything about the island you claim to live on, you'd know the British wanted to acquire it because it was already a rich and successful trading port. And they did so by selling the Chinese the only natural resource their people wanted from the British at that time, opium. Our eastern empire was funded by turning millions of Chinese into junkies and then bombing them into submission and forcing them to sign the island over to us.

The 'the empire was all desolate muddy fields before we arrived' argument is often used to justify colonialism, but its an argument usually demolished by the facts.

[Hibs Giant]

See no reason myself for Britain to be ashamed of the "British Empire" - maybe your exposure here to propoganda has swayed your opinion regarding this issue? Who is Joseph Gerbells by the way?

Goebbels.

Sorry.

The British Empire was founded on slavery and exploitation, and was enforced with ruthless violence. Any positive spin-offs, like improved infrastructure and so on, were usually built from the sweat and blood of the powerless local poor. During the second world war, technology (not just military) advanced phenomenally, to the benefit of many. Should the Germans feel proud of the war as a result? Incidentally, concentration camps were invented by the British.
Britain invaded countries to steal their wealth. Those who resisted were imprisoned, tortured and/or murdered. An astronomical number of people died to pay for British greed.
I'm glad I chose this example, as it is clear from other posters how completely people can be fooled by propaganda, in the face of such an atrocious reality.

[Betty Boop]

Citizen Kane on BBC 4.

[Twa Cairpets]

Goebbels.

Sorry.

The British Empire was founded on slavery and exploitation, and was enforced with ruthless violence. Any positive spin-offs, like improved infrastructure and so on, were usually built from the sweat and blood of the powerless local poor. During the second world war, technology (not just military) advanced phenomenally, to the benefit of many. Should the Germans feel proud of the war as a result? Incidentally, concentration camps were invented by the British.
Britain invaded countries to steal their wealth. Those who resisted were imprisoned, tortured and/or murdered. An astronomical number of people died to pay for British greed.
I'm glad I chose this example, as it is clear from other posters how completely people can be fooled by propaganda, in the face of such an atrocious reality.

It's not propaganda. It's interpretation of history.

The colonialism of nations up to the 1800's was by no means solely a British activity. Spain, Netherlands, Germany, Portugal and France all had massive international empire and trade, and all exploited the reserves of the places the colonised.

You are judging the actions by early 21st century standards, not those of the time. Undoubtedly many appalling actions were perpetrated by invading and occupying military and administrative authorities, but explaining it in context of the time is not propaganda.

It's also worth considering that if it hadn't been Britain it would have most likely been the Dutch, French or the Spanish who would have colonised, and would have - as is the slightly sad, somewhat uncomfortable but undeniably true fact - left Britain a poorer, weaker an less influential country than it is now.

Your comparison to WWII Germany is fatuous. You're offering a false dichotomy of feeling proud or feeling ashamed. It is possible to have neither emotion when reviewing the facts.