Pronunciation of foreign words in the English language.

[Hibbyradge]

Why do we pronounce the word genre, "zjon-ruh"?

Logically, in English it should be pronounced "gen - er" like "centre", no?

We don't pronounce Paris, "Paree", so why do we pick and choose?

Strange thing to dream about, I grant you, but it struck me that there aren't any other words we pronounce with the Zjon sound at the start.

Are there?

As I type this, I remember "Dijon" has that sound in the middle.

Still...

[s.a.m]

There was a convention, in the past, of adapting some (presumably well known or more frequently visited) foreign place names to English pronunciations, and sometimes spellings, such as Lyons and Bombay, and I think the same thing happened elsewhere - French has alternative spellings for a lot of foreign places, such as Edimbourg and Londres. Here, they seem to have generally fallen out of use, or have been deliberately ditched for their original counterparts. I think, as far as imported words other than place names go, the answer - in terms of which ones (and there are quite a lot) retained original pronunciation, and which ones were adapted locally over time - is probably a long-winded and not very definitive one to do with when they came over, and who they were used by, and how much status, caché or power they had.

If you're at all interested in the origins and development of language, Guy Deutcher's books are interesting. I really enjoyed 'The Unfolding of Language', which attempts to uncover how languages develop and change over time.:aok:

[s.a.m]

.....I once heard somebody talking about the words deputy (English) and depute (same thing, but only used in Scotland). Both derive from the Latin deputare, but were adapted differently north and south of the border.

[Mibbes Aye]

Why do we pronounce the word genre, "zjon-ruh"?

Logically, in English it should be pronounced "gen - er" like "centre", no?

We don't pronounce Paris, "Paree", so why do we pick and choose?

Strange thing to dream about, I grant you, but it struck me that there aren't any other words we pronounce with the Zjon sound at the start.

Are there?

As I type this, I remember "Dijon" has that sound in the middle.

Still...

Gilet, which is I suppose in relatively common usage.

Gendarmerie, gendarmes etc but that's almost specifically used in a foreign context.

To answer your main point though, I don't know! Guess it's what makes language, linguistics and discourse analysis fascinating - the rules or norms that exist and evolve.

Maybe the pronunciation of 'genre' will change - if enough people pronounce it the way you describe above then it maybe just shifts to that.

I posted recently on the MB about how everyone misuses the word 'turgid'. If it keeps up like that, then the intention will eventually supercede the definition and it will mean what people think or want it to mean, and why shouldn't it?

Slippery stuff, language :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Gilet, which is I suppose in relatively common usage.

Gendarmerie, gendarmes etc but that's almost specifically used in a foreign context.

To answer your main point though, I don't know! Guess it's what makes language, linguistics and discourse analysis fascinating - the rules or norms that exist and evolve.

Maybe the pronunciation of 'genre' will change - if enough people pronounce it the way you describe above then it maybe just shifts to that.

I posted recently on the MB about how everyone misuses the word 'turgid'. If it keeps up like that, then the intention will eventually supercede the definition and it will mean what people think or want it to mean, and why shouldn't it?

Slippery stuff, language :greengrin

Must admit I've used the word turgid exactly the way it was used in the MB for years.

Was at something recently and afterwards started to describe it as turgid...I quickly corrected myself tho and described it as torpid so maybe the turgid/torpid tide has started to turn..and all because of your hard work defending the English language ;-)

[Hibbyradge]

Gilet, which is I suppose in relatively common usage.

Gendarmerie, gendarmes etc but that's almost specifically used in a foreign context.

To answer your main point though, I don't know! Guess it's what makes language, linguistics and discourse analysis fascinating - the rules or norms that exist and evolve.

Maybe the pronunciation of 'genre' will change - if enough people pronounce it the way you describe above then it maybe just shifts to that.

I posted recently on the MB about how everyone misuses the word 'turgid'. If it keeps up like that, then the intention will eventually supercede the definition and it will mean what people think or want it to mean, and why shouldn't it?

Slippery stuff, language :greengrin

The misuse of the word "literally" has always grated with me, but as of last month, it officially doesn't just mean "literally" anymore.

It also means "figuratively speaking" or "virtually". Disgusting, but true.

My head literally exploded when I found out.

PS I didn't read the thread about "turgid" although I understand the conflict.

Was it recent?

[Treadstone]

The misuse of the word "literally" has always grated with me, but as of last month, it officially doesn't just mean "literally" anymore.

It also means "figuratively speaking" or "virtually". Disgusting, but true.

My head literally exploded when I found out.

PS I didn't read the thread about "turgid" although I understand the conflict.

Was it recent?

Top-Top will be delighted. Literally.

http://www.parryphernalia.com/?page_id=1019

[Mibbes Aye]

The misuse of the word "literally" has always grated with me, but as of last month, it officially doesn't just mean "literally" anymore.

It also means "figuratively speaking" or "virtually". Disgusting, but true.

My head literally exploded when I found out.

PS I didn't read the thread about "turgid" although I understand the conflict.

Was it recent?

It was on the 'Calderclown' thread, here (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?270778-The-most-positive-thing-to-come-out-of-Hibs-post-Calderclown). More of a tangent within the thread TBH.

"Literally" is a good (or rather not good - powerful maybe :greengrin) example of misuse becoming formalised.

We live in times when so many things seem to be pushed to the extremes more and more - it's maybe no surprise that metaphor on its own isn't enough and has to be intensified by the addition of "literally" :dunno:

[Hibbyradge]

Top-Top will be delighted. Literally.

http://www.parryphernalia.com/?page_id=1019

Nice one, thanks.

Here's a post I put on my Facebook about the subject earlier. You might recognise one or two lines!


The misuse of the word "literally" has always grated with me. You know the sort of thing.

Football commentators saying that Barcelona literally wiped the floor with Espanol or that the Scotland rugby players literally ran their socks off.

I watched the entire season of X-factor last year because someone told me that Simon Cowell literally gets away with murder on it. Imagine adding crushing disappointment to the usual feelings of anger and frustration you get when watching that drivel!

I once emailed Radio Forth to ask for photographic evidence after I heard a weepy caller on a phone-in saying that her and her pals literally cried their eyes out watching the film Titanic.

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh! Please stop it!

But, as of last month, it officially doesn't just mean "literally" anymore.

It also means "figuratively speaking" or "virtually".

It's a disgusting development, but it's true. I genuinely feel betrayed.

My head literally exploded when I found out.

[wpj]

Nice one, thanks.

Here's a post I put on my Facebook about the subject earlier. You might recognise one or two lines!


The misuse of the word "literally" has always grated with me. You know the sort of thing.

Football commentators saying that Barcelona literally wiped the floor with Espanol or that the Scotland rugby players literally ran their socks off.

I watched the entire season of X-factor last year because someone told me that Simon Cowell literally gets away with murder on it. Imagine adding crushing disappointment to the usual feelings of anger and frustration you get when watching that drivel!

I once emailed Radio Forth to ask for photographic evidence after I heard a weepy caller on a phone-in saying that her and her pals literally cried their eyes out watching the film Titanic.

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh! Please stop it!

But, as of last month, it officially doesn't just mean "literally" anymore.

It also means "figuratively speaking" or "virtually".

It's a disgusting development, but it's true. I genuinely feel betrayed.

My head literally exploded when I found out.


Here in London "literally" is the most overused word around, it is taking over in the workplace from "absolutely" and "in terms of" one of my colleagues starts a sentence with it nearly every conversation. Does me nut in

[lapsedhibee]

I posted recently on the MB about how everyone misuses the word 'turgid'. If it keeps up like that, then the intention will eventually supercede the definition and it will mean what people think or want it to mean, and why shouldn't it?


"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

[Mibbes Aye]

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

:greengrin

I haven't seen that quote in a long time. Got a mental image of an egg-shaped Alistair Campbell channelling Foucault now.

[Speedy]

Must admit I've used the word turgid exactly the way it was used in the MB for years.

Was at something recently and afterwards started to describe it as turgid...I quickly corrected myself tho and described it as torpid so maybe the turgid/torpid tide has started to turn..and all because of your hard work defending the English language ;-)

I have no idea what turgid means (or doesn't mean).

[Peevemor]

Why do we pronounce the word genre, "zjon-ruh"?

Logically, in English it should be pronounced "gen - er" like "centre", no?

We don't pronounce Paris, "Paree", so why do we pick and choose?

Strange thing to dream about, I grant you, but it struck me that there aren't any other words we pronounce with the Zjon sound at the start.

Are there?

As I type this, I remember "Dijon" has that sound in the middle.

Still...

I'll tell you what's really annoying, is living in France and having to pronounce English words and names with a French accent in order to be understood. For example - Ondee Mur-ray who won Wimblydon this year supports my team - Eeb-ern-nee-ann.

I kid you not! :grr:

[lapsedhibee]

Why do we pronounce the word genre, "zjon-ruh"?

Logically, in English it should be pronounced "gen - er" like "centre", no?

We don't pronounce Paris, "Paree", so why do we pick and choose?

Strange thing to dream about, I grant you, but it struck me that there aren't any other words we pronounce with the Zjon sound at the start.

Are there?

As I type this, I remember "Dijon" has that sound in the middle.

Still...

What are you calling the polis in Franceland? If you just called them French Polis it would risk confusion with furniture restoring, so don't you have to say Zjon etc?

[Hibrandenburg]

Isn't the English language just a jumble of words borrowed from several other languages anyway. It's a nightmare for foreigners to learn because there are no real hard rules as to how words are pronounced, instead it mainly depends on the source of the word as to how it's pronounced.

[s.a.m]

Isn't the English language just a jumble of words borrowed from several other languages anyway. It's a nightmare for foreigners to learn because there are no real hard rules as to how words are pronounced, instead it mainly depends on the source of the word as to how it's pronounced.

Pronunciation might be hasslesome in English, but we don't have to contend with gender, case or complex verb conjugation. I'm assuming you speak German, and you have to contend with three noun genders and four cases in every language construction you make - English has none of that. So if foreign folks are moaning about the way we say stuff, get them tellt!

[Hibbyradge]

What are you calling the polis in Franceland? If you just called them French Polis it would risk confusion with furniture restoring, so don't you have to say Zjon etc?

Les filth? :dunno:

[--------]

Isn't the English language just a jumble of words borrowed from several other languages anyway? It's a nightmare for foreigners to learn because there are no real hard rules as to how words are pronounced; instead it mainly depends on the source of the word as to how it's pronounced.


:wink:

I really don't see why we should consider the feelings of foreigners, Hiberlin. It's their duty to learn to speak English, after all. The real problem with the EC is that English wasn't adopted as the official language right from the start. If we all spoke English life would be so much simpler. Johnny Foreigner would know his place.

Besides, most British people don't speak or write English properly. Look at the appalling spelling, punctuation and grammar displayed in most comments posted on this forum.

(BTW - I've corrected your punctuation for you - please don't let it happen again. :devil:)

[--------]

Case in point -

http://www.funnysigns.net/files/english-first-language.jpg

[Hibrandenburg]

:wink:

I really don't see why we should consider the feelings of foreigners, Hiberlin. It's their duty to learn to speak English, after all. The real problem with the EC is that English wasn't adopted as the official language right from the start. If we all spoke English life would be so much simpler. Johnny Foreigner would know his place.

Besides, most British people don't speak or write English properly. Look at the appalling spelling, punctuation and grammar displayed in most comments posted on this forum.

(BTW - I've corrected your punctuation for you - please don't let it happen again. :devil:)


:wink:

Tsk tsk tsk, dear oh dear Doddie! Hijacking a thread about pronunciation to score cheap points regarding grammar. A poor grammar school drop out like myself has no alternative but to cower in the corner when faced with your bumptious grammatical superiority.

:sofa:

For this reason I couldn't possibly promise not to repeat my mistakes, however for the same reason I'm also willing to forgive your superfluous addition of a comma prior to using "after all" in it's idiomatic sense at the end of a sentence.


:tin hat:


P.S. I reserve the right to correct any mistakes in this post due to having a pesky 4 year old crawling all over my head at the time of drafting it.

[lapsedhibee]

For this reason I couldn't possibly promise not to repeat my mistakes, however for the same reason I'm also willing to forgive your superfluous addition of a comma prior to using "after all" in it's idiomatic sense at the end of a sentence.

:grr: :panic:

[(((Fergus)))]

Why do we pronounce the word genre, "zjon-ruh"?

Logically, in English it should be pronounced "gen - er" like "centre", no?

We don't pronounce Paris, "Paree", so why do we pick and choose?

Strange thing to dream about, I grant you, but it struck me that there aren't any other words we pronounce with the Zjon sound at the start.

Are there?

As I type this, I remember "Dijon" has that sound in the middle.

Still...

Apart from proper names, such as Gilles Villeneuve, this sound appears in lots of words we have appropriated from French, e.g.:

montage
dressage
sabotage
decoupage
décolletage
triage
agent provocateur
regime
bourgeois
lingerie
chargé d'affaire
ingénue
plus ça change
mange tout
négligé
protégé
ménage à trois
noblesse oblige
cortège

Same/similar sound with j instead of g:
joie de vivre
déjà vu
jus
lèse majesté
mot juste
force majeure
objet d'art

Probably loads more than that. Nicking words from other languages makes it easier for us to learn those languages... which is probably why we are such polyglots in this country...

[--------]

:wink:

Tsk tsk tsk, dear oh dear Doddie! Hijacking a thread about pronunciation to score cheap points regarding grammar. A poor grammar school drop out like myself has no alternative but to cower in the corner when faced with your bumptious grammatical superiority.

:sofa:

For this reason I couldn't possibly promise not to repeat my mistakes, however for the same reason I'm also willing to forgive your superfluous addition of a comma prior to using "after all" in it's idiomatic sense at the end of a sentence.


:tin hat:


P.S. I reserve the right to correct any mistakes in this post due to having a pesky 4 year old crawling all over my head at the time of drafting it.


No, no - the comma you refer to is quite in order. One may use a comma in that place or not - as one pleases.

I'm sorry that my post induced you to cower behind the couch. I was only trying to be helpful.

Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. :wink:

[heretoday]

The thing is - it's ok to pronounce a foreign word as it sounds in English.

You can do it when you are in Britain.

That comes from the Wykehamist book of what's right and what's not.

OK?

[Hibbyradge]

The thing is - it's ok to pronounce a foreign word as it sounds in English.

You can do it when you are in Britain.

That comes from the Wykehamist book of what's right and what's not.

OK?

It does my head in when folk pronounce Buffet, buff - it.

[Peevemor]

It does my head in when folk pronounce Buffet, buff - it.

Especially when there's horse's doovers .

[HibeeEmma]

It does my head in when folk pronounce Buffet, buff - it.

Likewise.

Similarly, why is Edinburgh called Edinbourg to Europeans (and possibly others?)

Agree with the mis-use of literally, along with actually and the over use of the word like, which seems to be every 3rd word used by many people.

[Peevemor]

Likewise.

Similarly, why is Edinburgh called Edinbourg to Europeans (and possibly others?)

Agree with the mis-use of literally, along with actually and the over use of the word like, which seems to be every 3rd word used by many people.

Because the burgh part, as well as being unpronounceable to many foreigners, has a direct translation in French and German which is very close to the English.

Similarly, why and when did we chose to rename the likes of Kôln, Bruxelles/Brussel, Roma, etc. ?

[snooky]

Chill guys. Just vive la difference :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Likewise.

Similarly, why is Edinburgh called Edinbourg to Europeans (and possibly others?)

Agree with the mis-use of literally, along with actually and the over use of the word like, which seems to be every 3rd word used by many people.

Scotland has loads of different names too - Ecosse, Schotland, Scozia, Escocia etc.

Same applies to every country in the world e.g.

Germany = Deutschland

Belgium - Belgique

Spain - España

Switzerland - Suisse

[barcahibs]

Isn't the English language just a jumble of words borrowed from several other languages anyway. It's a nightmare for foreigners to learn because there are no real hard rules as to how words are pronounced, instead it mainly depends on the source of the word as to how it's pronounced.

reminds me of the James Nicoll quote

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary"


Scotland has loads of different names too - Ecosse, Schotland, Scozia, Escocia etc.

Same applies to every country in the world e.g.

Germany = Deutschland

Belgium - Belgique

Spain - España

Switzerland - Suisse

Szkot is Polish for Scot and from that I'm told they get the word "szot" which is a fairly derogatory name for an itinerant trader or door to door salesperson. Seems that back in the sixteenth century lots of Scots (presumably Hibs fans) took their caravans to Poland in order to sell pegs door to door.

I love all this linguistic stuff.