PDA

View Full Version : James McPake - Northern Irish or Scottish?



hfc rd
06-09-2013, 06:40 PM
Trying to settle an argument with my mate. Has James McPake switched allegiances to Northern Ireland over Scotland? I'm sure he represented Northern Ireland a few years ago against Holland. But my mate is acting certain that he is Scottish through and through and hasn't switched his allegiance.

Craig_in_Prague
06-09-2013, 06:41 PM
NI

Sir David Gray
06-09-2013, 06:42 PM
He has represented Northern Ireland at senior level.

SurferRosa
06-09-2013, 06:43 PM
Trying to settle an argument with my mate. Has James McPake switched allegiances to Northern Ireland over Scotland? I'm sure he represented Northern Ireland a few years ago against Holland. But my mate is acting certain that he is Scottish through and through and hasn't switched his allegiance.

Norn Iron. He was capped against the dutch last year.

brianmc
06-09-2013, 06:43 PM
Born+bred in Lanarkshire...... Plays for Northern Ireland, so you're both correct!

Thecat23
06-09-2013, 06:43 PM
Scottish.. I don't buy into this whole my granny was Irish so that makes me Irish. If he's born here he's Scottish.

Craig_in_Prague
06-09-2013, 06:45 PM
Scottish.. I don't buy into this whole my granny was Irish so that makes me Irish. If he's born here he's Scottish.

And James Mcarthy playing for ROI

Jones28
06-09-2013, 07:05 PM
Tbf if given the choice wouldn't you pick the team you were most likely to get picked for?

monktonharp
06-09-2013, 07:06 PM
Scottish.. I don't buy into this whole my granny was Irish so that makes me Irish. If he's born here he's Scottish. did not take long for this debate to kick in. mc geady springs to mind. the difference with that, was that he was a celtic player and that made him a plastic paddy f/off, as far as a lot on here wanted... now we've got one, what we gonna do?:rolleyes:

Thecat23
06-09-2013, 07:07 PM
And James Mcarthy playing for ROI

Scottish :D

And Aiden the tranny.

Thecat23
06-09-2013, 07:08 PM
Tbf if given the choice wouldn't you pick the team you were most likely to get picked for?

I personally would yeah. But I have an English grandad if I played for them in no way would I be English I'd just be representing them. As in McPakes case and the others.

Thecat23
06-09-2013, 07:11 PM
I'm not as black-and-white on this issue - I think people have the right to self-determine and even if someone was born in one country they might have family ties or cultural traditions from their ancestral country that makes them identify more with that.

This kind of thing is brought up with the German national team a lot - i.e: Podolski (Born in Poland, lived in Germany since age 2), Özil (born in Germany, 3rd-generation Turk), Khedira (born in Germany to a German mother and Tunisian father). I don't think it's for anybody else to decide whether they are German/Polish/Turkish/Tunisian - it's up to the individual what they identify as.



:agree: Granted, I think a lot of footballers probably choose their "country" for footballing reasons rather than issues of self-determination, but I don't think the issue is as clear cut as your nationality being the country you were born in.

My sister was born in England, lived there 2 months then my parents moved back. If I for a min call her English she goes mad so I actually understand what you mean. But to me she's still English (sorry Donna if your reading this) :D

marinello59
06-09-2013, 07:13 PM
If I had emigrated and had kids abroad I would be delighted if they wanted to represent Scotland rather than the country of their birth. If only Joe Baker could have played for Scotland. There is an element of choice under the current rules and quite rightly so.

Craig_in_Prague
06-09-2013, 07:16 PM
If I had emigrated and had kids abroad I would be delighted if they wanted to represent Scotland rather than the country of their birth. If only Joe Baker could have played for Scotland. There is an element of choice under the current rules and quite rightly so.

yup.
If my wee boy grows up to be a footballer, if he is good he will play for Czech Rep. And if just ok, then Scotland lol.
In all seriousness I would be probably more proud if he decided to play for Scotland despite being born & living here.

monktonharp
06-09-2013, 07:35 PM
yup.
If my wee boy grows up to be a footballer, if he is good he will play for Czech Rep. And if just ok, then Scotland lol.
In all seriousness I would be probably more proud if he decided to play for Scotland despite being born & living here.you seem a lot like mc geady's grampa:wink:

stoneyburn hibs
06-09-2013, 08:09 PM
Scottish :D

And Aiden the tranny.

And it gets my goat, two born and bred Scottish guys caught up in the romantics of playing for Ireland.

Purple & Green
06-09-2013, 08:30 PM
This isn't the greatest article, but it's worth a read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules

You need to be national of the country you want to represent in the first instance (in practical terms have a passport), and where you are born is secondary. IIRC all the Scottish players have to show their UK passports to the FIFA observer to establish their entitlement to play for Scotland.

It also works in reverse - ISTR that Henrik Larsson's son was born in Scotland, but would have no entitlement to play for Scotland because he isn't a UK national, being born in the UK doesn't automatically entitle you to a UK passport.

And obviously the 4 home nations are slightly unique in world football in that they all share citizenship of the same country. This is complicated further by the nationality(citizenship) rules of the Irish Republic which means that in practical terms many people are entitled to citizenship of the Irish Republic if they can show they have a parent of grandparent born on the island of Ireland. In my own case, I can claim Irish citizenship on the back of a grandmother born in Derry in 1918.

It's worth a read of the long running dispute between NI, the republic and FIFA over nationality entitlement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/7147228.stm

Purple & Green
06-09-2013, 08:36 PM
If I had emigrated and had kids abroad I would be delighted if they wanted to represent Scotland rather than the country of their birth. If only Joe Baker could have played for Scotland. There is an element of choice under the current rules and quite rightly so.

Jimmy Wardaugh was born in England and represented Scotland, before Joe Baker. It's funny what you find out, and seems to make no sense whatsoever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wardhaugh

Holmesdale Hibs
06-09-2013, 10:46 PM
Scottish.. I don't buy into this whole my granny was Irish so that makes me Irish. If he's born here he's Scottish.

As someone with an Irish granny, I agree. I don't feel at all Irish or care when they win or lose.

That being said, it's different for every individual so if McPake feels Northern Irish then fair play.

Hypothetically, if I good enough for Ireland but not Scotland, I'd turn down the chance, however that's unlikely on a couple of levels.

Rocky
06-09-2013, 11:02 PM
I reckon the qualification should be simple -if you're eligible to play for more than one country you should just answer the question: Who would you want to win in a match between those teams. That defines your allegiance for me

SunshineOnLeith
07-09-2013, 12:40 AM
Craig Levein was Scotland manager when McPake chose to play for NI - I think that was probably more relevant in his decision than any plastic paddyness.

Pete
07-09-2013, 01:48 AM
Why is it that when anyone chooses to recognise their Irish heritage it's considered "plastic"?

Footballers like Marcus Gayle never got such labels for deciding they wanted to represent a foreign country

There's bound to be a breakthrough in the near future when it comes to Asian players. When one of them decides to represent Pakistan on a point of principle instead of Scotland or England I'll have no doubt the same standards will apply and he will be a "plastic Paki".

You wouldn't dream of it and anyone choosing any part of Ireland should be given the same amount of respect.

Swedish hibee
07-09-2013, 03:08 AM
Nothing would make me prouder than to see my son play for Scotland.. But really, Scotland over Sweden :confused: Ach. You never know...

I'm_cabbaged
07-09-2013, 05:49 AM
Is Fletcher no English born?

Hibernia Na Eir
07-09-2013, 07:21 AM
Born+bred in Lanarkshire...... Plays for Northern Ireland, so you're both correct!

wonder why James McCarthy was singled out for abuse when he had identical situation? hmmm...

Pretty Boy
07-09-2013, 07:40 AM
wonder why James McCarthy was singled out for abuse when he had identical situation? hmmm...

I think McCarthy had every right to go and play for Ireland. Despite clearly being a good player and playing 1st team football at 16, he was repeatedly ignored by Scotland at youth levels. No wonder he jumped at the chance to play for Ireland. He always said if Scotland had asked first then that's who he would have played for.

McGeady is relativelt similar as well. When he signed for Celtic he wasn't allowed to play for his school team and the SFA has a rule that players.that don't play for their school teams can't represent Scotland schools teams. Ireland don't have that rule, knew he was eligible so invited him into the set up at a young age. When Scotland came callimg a few years later he declined as he was settled in the Irish set up.

That's probably not treacherous enough for some though.

Hibrandenburg
07-09-2013, 07:44 AM
My little boy was refused a UK passport because his mum is German. Would be cool though to see a guid Scottish name on the back of a German strip at the 2030 world cup finals :greengrin

hibby rae
07-09-2013, 07:48 AM
Is Fletcher no English born?

According to wikipedia he was born in Shrewsbury but spent the first ten years of his life moving around various UK and German British army bases before settling in Scotland.

hibby rae
07-09-2013, 07:50 AM
On the other hand we have Jordan Rhodes who is English born but always wanted to play for Scotland. Unlike English players of the past and present who represented Scotland as England never picked them.

green&left
07-09-2013, 07:58 AM
Scottish.. I don't buy into this whole my granny was Irish so that makes me Irish. If he's born here he's Scottish.


And James Mcarthy playing for ROI

Bit like Rhodes. The plastic Jock bassa. *Mock outrage smiley here*

Beefster
07-09-2013, 08:12 AM
If I had emigrated and had kids abroad I would be delighted if they wanted to represent Scotland rather than the country of their birth. If only Joe Baker could have played for Scotland. There is an element of choice under the current rules and quite rightly so.

There's a bit of a power struggle going on in my family. If my wee man is ever good enough at anything to represent his country, he'll be eligible to play for Scotland, England or Ireland. I'm trying to raise him to be patriotic, Mrs Beefster is trying to persuade him that he's really English despite his accent and Mrs Beefster's mother does the same with Ireland.

If he ever claims to be anything other than Scottish, I'll have failed my life's work.

blackpoolhibs
07-09-2013, 08:20 AM
I wonder what game he watched last night, that would tell me what he regards himself as?

Billy Whizz
07-09-2013, 08:24 AM
I wonder what game he watched last night, that would tell me what he regards himself as?

Good point. I'm sure he thinks he's Scottish, but choose NI to probably to enhance his career

J-C
07-09-2013, 08:27 AM
It's a grey area in a lot of sports, Lennox Lewis was born in West Ham and went to Canada at the age of 12 where he represented them at the Olympics, Owen Hargreaves was born in Calgary Canada although his parents both British emigrated there in the 80's and Greg Rusedski was born in Montreal to an English mother and Polish father.

Pretty Boy
07-09-2013, 08:31 AM
It's a grey area in a lot of sports, Lennox Lewis was born in West Ham and went to Canada at the age of 12 where he represented them at the Olympics, Owen Hargreaves was born in Calgary Canada although his parents both British emigrated there in the 80's and Greg Rusedski was born in Montreal to an English mother and Polish father.

Lennox had a really tough time winning over the British fans in his early pro career. Mainly thanks to a well orchestrated 'True Brit' campaign by Frank Bruno and his management.

J-C
07-09-2013, 08:33 AM
I wonder what game he watched last night, that would tell me what he regards himself as?

I think unlike some of the plastic paddy's James took the opportunity to play for NI not expecting to ever get a call up from Scotland.

TBH Honest I think the whole grandfather/grandmother ruling is wrong, parents birth place should be as far as you go.

What about all the Polish we have here in the country at the moment, if a good young player comes through the ranks in the next few years and he came over here as a boy but has citizenship through residency, do we embrace him or say he wasn't born here or even his parents, so he can't play for us.

J-C
07-09-2013, 08:36 AM
Lennox had a really tough time winning over the British fans in his early pro career. Mainly thanks to a well orchestrated 'True Brit' campaign by Frank Bruno and his management.

This is what was amazing to me at the time, he was born in London and went to Canada as a 12 year old with his mum, how much more English/British do you have to be but to be born here FFS, I think his accent was the main thing that put people against him, didn't see him as one of their own.

hibby rae
07-09-2013, 08:39 AM
I think unlike some of the plastic paddy's James took the opportunity to play for NI not expecting to ever get a call up from Scotland.

TBH Honest I think the whole grandfather/grandmother ruling is wrong, parents birth place should be as far as you go.

What about all the Polish we have here in the country at the moment, if a good young player comes through the ranks in the next few years and he came over here as a boy but has citizenship through residency, do we embrace him or say he wasn't born here or even his parents, so he can't play for us.

I'd take him in a heartbeat. Hopefully he plays for Hibs as well!

Keith_M
07-09-2013, 09:13 AM
Most of these strange choices of playing for a grandparents' country are just choices of convenience. If you're a footballer born in a country where it's highly unlikely you'll never get the chance to play for that country but you could benefit from the grandparent rule then why not?


I'm not saying I agree with the rule, just that it currently exists so you can't blame players for taking advantage of it.


Could one of you who rabidly argue against it please explain how Steven Fletcher plays for Scotland :wink:

J-C
07-09-2013, 09:30 AM
Most of these strange choices of playing for a grandparents' country are just choices of convenience. If you're a footballer born in a country where it's highly unlikely you'll never get the chance to play for that country but you could benefit from the grandparent rule then why not?


I'm not saying I agree with the rule, just that it currently exists so you can't blame players for taking advantage of it.


Could one of you who rabidly argue against it please explain how Steven Fletcher plays for Scotland :wink:

His mum is Scottish. :greengrin

My biggest moan is the players who are very Scottish yet chose Ireland instead, the so called Plastic Paddy's....Ray Houghton, Aiden McGeady and Owen Coyle.

Keith_M
07-09-2013, 10:12 AM
His mum is Scottish. :greengrin


He actually qualifies though some obscure ruling about where he went to school. Much stranger than a grandparent rule.




My biggest moan is the players who are very Scottish yet chose Ireland instead, the so called Plastic Paddy's....Ray Houghton, Aiden McGeady and Owen Coyle.


I know, that's the same with most complaints. There are loads of English players that play for Ireland and then there's the two Andy Gorams, both of whom played for Scotland despite sounding like something from Coronation Street :greengrin

Hibernia Na Eir
07-09-2013, 10:16 AM
I think McCarthy had every right to go and play for Ireland. Despite clearly being a good player and playing 1st team football at 16, he was repeatedly ignored by Scotland at youth levels. No wonder he jumped at the chance to play for Ireland. He always said if Scotland had asked first then that's who he would have played for.

McGeady is relativelt similar as well. When he signed for Celtic he wasn't allowed to play for his school team and the SFA has a rule that players.that don't play for their school teams can't represent Scotland schools teams. Ireland don't have that rule, knew he was eligible so invited him into the set up at a young age. When Scotland came callimg a few years later he declined as he was settled in the Irish set up.

That's probably not treacherous enough for some though.

I concur.

Hibernia Na Eir
07-09-2013, 10:18 AM
He actually qualifies though some obscure ruling about where he went to school. Much stranger than a grandparent rule.





I know, that's the same with most complaints. There are loads of English players that play for Ireland and then there's the two Andy Gorams, both of whom played for Scotland despite sounding like something from Coronation Street :greengrin

....are you as critical of those born in Scotland who went on to play for Norn Ireland?
if not, reason?

Keith_M
07-09-2013, 10:27 AM
....are you as critical of those born in Scotland who went on to play for Norn Ireland?
if not, reason?


I think you need to read all of my posts on this thread from the start then come back and let me know if you got the point I was making. You seem to have completely missed it so far....

DAVE1875
07-09-2013, 10:54 AM
James Morrison played for the England under 17s, 18s, 19s & 20s. & look what happened :greengrin


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/001/012/881/Hart_original.gif?1376522181

Iggy Pope
07-09-2013, 11:14 AM
I wonder what game he watched last night, that would tell me what he regards himself as?

I didn't watch either game. I was at the time, regarding myself as being quite drunk.

Centre Hawf
07-09-2013, 11:59 AM
Aiden McGeady's situation is a little different because he was never capped for Scotland at any youth level but the Republic Of Ireland did and "looked after him" from a young age so i'm assuming his allegiance was to the coaches etc.

blackpoolhibs
07-09-2013, 12:35 PM
I didn't watch either game. I was at the time, regarding myself as being quite drunk.

:greengrin

J-C
07-09-2013, 03:19 PM
He actually qualifies though some obscure ruling about where he went to school. Much stranger than a grandparent rule.





I know, that's the same with most complaints. There are loads of English players that play for Ireland and then there's the two Andy Gorams, both of whom played for Scotland despite sounding like something from Coronation Street :greengrin

Erm as I have already stated, Fletcher's mum is Scottish, nothing to do with where he went to school.

Andy Goram's father was from Edinburgh, Lewis Goram, he played for Leith Ath, Hibernian, Third Lanark and Bury. I'd presume when he was playing for Bury, Andy was born, hence his accent but with having Scottish parents, he's perfectly entitled to play for us.

J-C
07-09-2013, 03:21 PM
Aiden McGeady's situation is a little different because he was never capped for Scotland at any youth level but the Republic Of Ireland did and "looked after him" from a young age so i'm assuming his allegiance was to the coaches etc.


Pretty sure I read or heard somewhere that McGeady had promised his grandfather he'd play for Ireland, hence why he stated this fact from an early age and went through all the different levels.

Keith_M
07-09-2013, 03:30 PM
Erm as I have already stated, Fletcher's mum is Scottish, nothing to do with where he went to school.

Andy Goram's father was from Edinburgh, Lewis Goram, he played for Leith Ath, Hibernian, Third Lanark and Bury. I'd presume when he was playing for Bury, Andy was born, hence his accent but with having Scottish parents, he's perfectly entitled to play for us.


Fair enough on Steven Fletcher, I must have mixed him up with somebody else.


However, the other people were counter examples only to those who slate players playing for Ireland in the same circumstances. I at no point said they weren't eligible to play for Scotland, quite the contrary in fact.

ginger_rice
07-09-2013, 03:33 PM
I didn't watch either game. I was at the time, regarding myself as being quite drunk.

Right! that certainly qualifies you to play for Scotland :greengrin

Keith_M
07-09-2013, 03:37 PM
....are you as critical of those born in Scotland who went on to play for Norn Ireland?
if not, reason?


I think you need to read all of my posts on this thread from the start then come back and let me know if you got the point I was making. You seem to have completely missed it so far....



OK, seeing as you haven't bothered to read my other post and realise you'd made a cock-up. Here ya go



Most of these strange choices of playing for a grandparents' country are just choices of convenience. If you're a footballer born in a country where it's highly unlikely you'll never get the chance to play for that country but you could benefit from the grandparent rule then why not?


I'm not saying I agree with the rule, just that it currently exists so you can't blame players for taking advantage of it.


Could one of you who rabidly argue against it please explain how Steven Fletcher plays for Scotland :wink:

Glory Lurker
07-09-2013, 04:56 PM
I rather hoped that an Olympic cat would be let loose on the pigeons last year by McGeady being selected for Team GB. Pearce - nae sense of humour, man!

JimBHibees
07-09-2013, 06:41 PM
wonder why James McCarthy was singled out for abuse when he had identical situation? hmmm...

There is IMO a big difference in a journeyman player like McPake playing for another country when their home country dont pick them however to me there is a huge difference when young players like McGeady and McCarthy do it when their country wants them to play for them. It is plastic paddy nonsense and linked to the fake Irishness of Celtic and many of their support.

JimBHibees
07-09-2013, 06:44 PM
His mum is Scottish. :greengrin

My biggest moan is the players who are very Scottish yet chose Ireland instead, the so called Plastic Paddy's....Ray Houghton, Aiden McGeady and Owen Coyle.

Disagree with Houghton and Coyle they were capped relatively late in their career along with Tommy Coyne as they hadnt been chosen by their real country. IMO different for both McGeady and McCarthy, personally think it is a piece of nonsense.

Purple & Green
07-09-2013, 10:32 PM
I think Coyle might have played for the republic 21s at Easter road around 88 when fleck scored a hat trick in a 4-1 Scotland win

J-C
08-09-2013, 12:25 AM
I think Coyle might have played for the republic 21s at Easter road around 88 when fleck scored a hat trick in a 4-1 Scotland win

Yep he played for Ireland U21's, so makes a mockery of the " he wasn't picked by Scotland", Houghton on the other hand has a father from Donegal, so that might have made his mind up for him.

Bristolhibby
08-09-2013, 05:26 AM
I was born in Bath to Scottish parents (Dad was working down here at the time), moved back up to Scotland when I was 9 months. Moved around including the states, back to Scotland then moved to England age 9, where I've been living ever since.

There is no way I consider myself English. I have a diluted Scottish accent (unlike my younger brother, who ironically was Born in Edinburgh). He also considers himself Scottish.

This has a lot to do with our parents, family and upbringing. My folks have a strong group of Scottish expat friends that they always hang around with.

I have two sons, and operation brainwash has commenced. It is my duty to instil their heritage on them (mainly about the football at the moment (buying Hibs and Scotland shirts, singing songs, etc).
I would be gutted if they played for England, despite them being half English and being born and growing up in England).

So I have sympathy for the so called "Plastic Paddies". Bizarrely by a quirk of birth, my kids would only qualify for Scotland through the Grandparent rule, whereas my brothers kids would qualify through their Dad, even though we have both had the exact same family life as kids.

J

marinello59
08-09-2013, 06:41 AM
He actually qualifies though some obscure ruling about where he went to school. Much stranger than a grandparent rule.




That is a decent rule which allows people who have settled in Scotland at a very early age to represent their country if they have completed a minimum number of years of their education here.

J-C
08-09-2013, 04:07 PM
That is a decent rule which allows people who have settled in Scotland at a very early age to represent their country if they have completed a minimum number of years of their education here.

Ryan Giggs is the perfect example, born in Wales but educated and brought up in England, played for all levels of English schoolboys but chose the country of his birth rather than the one where he was educated and lived in.

marinello59
08-09-2013, 04:13 PM
Ryan Giggs is the perfect example, born in Wales but educated and brought up in England, played for all levels of English schoolboys but chose the country of his birth rather than the one where he was educated and lived in.

The perfect example of what? :confused:

J-C
08-09-2013, 04:28 PM
The perfect example of what? :confused:

The perfect example of the rule you were on about, Ryan Giggs qualified for England due to him living there most of his life, even playing all levels of schoolboy football, he chose his birth country but could if he wished chose England.

marinello59
08-09-2013, 04:31 PM
The perfect example of the rule you were on about, Ryan Giggs qualified for England due to him living there most of his life, even playing all levels of schoolboy football, he chose his birth country but could if he wished chose England.

Ah, got you, thanks. He picked the best choice for him then. Others will make an equally valid different choice.

HUTCHYHIBBY
08-09-2013, 04:41 PM
wonder why James McCarthy was singled out for abuse when he had identical situation? hmmm...

Thought you might've been over this by now! ;-)