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View Full Version : What's the Main Problem with our team: Opinions Please.



Wellbankhibby
20-08-2013, 08:44 AM
I have followed Hibs for over 40 years and wanted other fans views on what they see is wrong with our club. In recent seasons we have seen a high turnover of Managers being replaced. Although I have agreed with replacing some of the Managers I dont see this as the main issue surrounding our club.

I have always felt we as a team are not hard enough and some players do not give 100% on the park. Most times when we have lost to our neighbours it has not been because they are better than us it is in my opinion because they are harder than us in that they are more committed to winning the tackles and the game.

We have a great new training facility that is the envy of most clubs but very few Good players are coming through the system at this time. I feel the whole squad have a duty to stand up and be counted and the older players should be helping the younger players.

We need a stable structure and by that I mean get the right manager in place and give him time to work with the players. I have already aired my views who I would like. Strachan would always be my first choice I also thing Butcher would do a good job but think he is happy at Inverness, McLeish or Billy Stark would also be decent appointments.

As for the Board they have to have a good look at themselves too. Mr petrie has done an excellent job keeping the club on a financial footing and we have a fantastic stadium and training facilities but we now have to look at investing in a good team on the park.

I think we have some decent players and our recent signings should do well, liam Craig is a fantasic midfielder who will get better if played in his right position and I think collins up front looks like he will get goals for us but he needs the service.

As a person I like Pat Fenlon but I feel he is not able to Motivate the team and thats a problem especially when we go behind. I have only listed a few problems that I can see but I am sure many of you will have your own opinions. Finally i have not listed these issues to cause unrest but in my honest opinion if something is not working it has to be fixed and after watching my beloved Hibs through good and bad we are so poor now we need a total overhall. GGTHH :flag:

Diclonius
20-08-2013, 08:49 AM
Can't disagree with any of that. Our chairman clearly does not have the footballing knowledge or expertise to appoint a competent manager and there is a massive attitude problem at our club.

lyonhibs
20-08-2013, 08:51 AM
The one, main overriding problem that permeates and affects all other areas of the club?

The near total lack of commitment and a winners mentality throughout the club, from top to bottom.

spike220
20-08-2013, 09:02 AM
I have followed Hibs for over 40 years and wanted other fans views on what they see is wrong with our club. In recent seasons we have seen a high turnover of Managers being replaced. Although I have agreed with replacing some of the Managers I dont see this as the main issue surrounding our club. I have always felt we as a team are not hard enough and some players do not give 100% on the park. Most times when we have lost to our neighbours it has not been because they are better than us it is in my opinion because they are harder than us in that they are more committed to winning the tackles and the game. We have a great new training facility that is the envy of most clubs but very few Good players are coming through the system at this time. I feel the whole squad have a duty to stand up and be counted and the older players should be helping the younger players. We need a stable structure and by that I mean get the right manager in place and give him time to work with the players. I have already aired my views who I would like. Strachan would always be my first choice I also thing Butcher would do a good job but think he is happy at Inverness, McLeish or Billy Stark would also be decent appointments. As for the Board they have to have a good look at themselves too. Mr petrie has done an excellent job keeping the club on a financial footing and we have a fantastic stadium and training facilities but we now have to look at investing in a good team on the park. I think we have some decent players and our recent signings should do well, liam Craig is a fantasic midfielder who will get better if played in his right position and I think collins up front looks like he will get goals for us but he needs the service. As a person I like Pat Fenlon but I feel he is not able to Motivate the team and thats a problem especially when we go behind. I have only listed a few problems that I can see but I am sure many of you will have your own opinions. Finally i have not listed these issues to cause unrest but in my honest opinion if something is not working it has to be fixed and after watching my beloved Hibs through good and bad we are so poor now we need a total overhall. GGTHH :flag:
A lot of good points there.

Eternal Hibbie
20-08-2013, 09:14 AM
Manager(s) identify and bring in the players they want, spend five days a week coaching these preferred players, picking them on matchdays before giving them an inspiring team talk prior to the game then supposedly use their footballing experience / knowledge / tactical nous to guide them through each match, making subtle yet effective changes in order to outwit and outplay their opponents whilst playing attractive football and winning more matches than they lose.

We have a terrible habit of choosing the wrong manager(s). :rolleyes:

gegs70
20-08-2013, 09:16 AM
I think to be honest we have let better managers go than fenlon. If you look at our league no other team has spent £200k on one player...its the delay in bringing in the right player, collins seems to be 3-4-5th choice. We were not prepared fir the malmo game only really had 1striker and that wasnt vine. Fenlon has identified the need for wide man, yet we ar still waiting....

I really dont know what is wrong but after the 7-0 defeat that was unforgivable....recent results erc have not been encouraging and you will not see many fans come back to this!!

gegs70
20-08-2013, 09:20 AM
I also think that we should have a reserve league....we cant kp emptying players on the scrap heap at 19 maybe we nd to kp them that little bit longer 21-22yrs and see wht happens.

Speedway
20-08-2013, 09:21 AM
When you look at players we have who have either played at a higher or similar standard and would get a game in most other SPL sides you come up with:

Williams
McGivern
Nelson
Thomson
Craig
Robertson
OTJ
Collins

That's the majority of our side and so the focus has to look at the manager who has neither played nor managed at this level previously.

gegs70
20-08-2013, 09:28 AM
When you look at players we have who have either played at a higher or similar standard and would get a game in most other SPL sides you come up with:

Williams
McGivern
Nelson
Thomson
Craig
Robertson
OTJ
Collins

That's the majority of our side and so the focus has to look at the manager who has neither played nor managed at this level previously.

Yes agree with that....kenny shiels also spoke about the outdated training in Scotland and I think on a prev thread Steven Fletcher said how much harder training was in England.

Hibby 2005
20-08-2013, 09:31 AM
When you look at players we have who have either played at a higher or similar standard and would get a game in most other SPL sides you come up with:

Williams
McGivern
Nelson
Thomson
Craig
Robertson
OTJ
Collins

That's the majority of our side and so the focus has to look at the manager who has neither played nor managed at this level previously.

The short term problem is Fenlon, the bigger longer term problem is the way the club is run.

matty_f
20-08-2013, 09:33 AM
I am not sure that there is something inherently wrong at the club - outside of the first team the club is in fairly good health.

i agree with Speedway that at present the underperformance points to the manager who is looking like a lost cause at the moment (though it's fair to say that I like Fenlon and desperately want to see him turn it around, I'm just very doubtful he's able to do so).

I also think that there is a strong fear of failure at the club that it prevents anyone pushing themselves to the limit. I think that is something that needs to be addressed ASAP. There should be challenging and ambitious targets and a strategy in place to achieve those.

Setting expectations across the club of what the targets are and what's deemed success will go a long way to addressing some of the malais that appears to infect the club from time to time.

Ryan69
20-08-2013, 10:26 AM
The strangest part is how our young teams are mostly excellent,so east mains is working in that sense.
Strangely our first team is absolutely rotten though.
It doesnt have a help that Fenlons tactics are shocking...but what was the reason for the last few managers failures?

It just doesnt make sense really

Dan Sarf
20-08-2013, 10:32 AM
Fear.

They need to remember what the best form of defence is.

:flag:

pacorosssco
20-08-2013, 10:37 AM
Petrie has passed sell by date and continuity . We rip it up and start again to often. Need to have more longevity from players/coaching staff management. At this exact moment a manager out his depth at this level.

Imagine an established coaching system that promoted from within. Need a football man on board to develop.

grammyb111
20-08-2013, 10:43 AM
In the last few league games no-one appears to want the ball, there is no movement or passing into space. Players look up, see a square ball to another's feet and that's their only option, no wonder we're just punting it long. I also can't figure out how we fare so badly at throw-in's, we give the ball away 80% of the time, again that relates to the space and no-one wanting the ball. I don't know whether that is a confidence issue or an attitude issue, whatever it is, it needs to change.

Bill Milne
20-08-2013, 10:52 AM
I think the main problem is that the manager has no idea what he is doing. He has no tactical sense and his team selections are, often, bizarre as regards the placement of players. I felt on Saturday against United that Craig suddenly started to produce the form he displayed for Saints when he was allowed to play in a central midfield position.

Fenlon also seems to have problems controlling the team in that too many players amble about aimlessly doing what they want to do, or not do, more likely.

erin go bragh
20-08-2013, 10:54 AM
Fenlon is to blame imho . He has had 18 months to assemble his own squad, but yet we still have no pace , no width and still no creativity .

Ggtth

Brightside
20-08-2013, 10:55 AM
Plenty of our fans need a change in attitude also. Far to many players getting screamed at the "get rid" and that doesnt encourage the team to play good football. A wee example - last night Newcastle were 4-0 down again Man City even at that point the goalie looked to roll the ball out to a full back to restart play. A lot of our fans go mental if they see that. We need to learn to keep the ball and not go mental if it doesnt always come off.

TowerHibs
20-08-2013, 11:01 AM
Yes agree with that....kenny shiels also spoke about the outdated training in Scotland and I think on a prev thread Steven Fletcher said how much harder training was in England.

I was at hospitality at a Dunfermline game last year and overheard a discussion with 2 well known faces in Scottish football. Leishman being one of them. They got round to discussing Hibs and it was claimed that the Hibs training is extremely basic, passing drills and games. Now i had no idea is this was true as the other person involved has Hearts connections and i wondered how he knew. However, its a small world.....

Looking at Hibs, i could not say that we work for hours on shape, possession or tempo. Fenlon has no experience in working in full time, professional, top flight football. I think when you look round the league at current managers from this year and last, if they lack experience then they are schooled and experienced at playing in England. (I am not slating the SFA coaching courses BTW, it is highly regarded round the world)

If you look at the players who leave the club and go on to improve, it is purely down to the coaching received at Hibs. Yes, we are short of good players and have had a few brutes in the last few years but even a average player can look good if he knows what he needs to do before he is even on the park.

lord bunberry
20-08-2013, 11:13 AM
A manager comes in he signs players, he gets sacked, the new manager comes in and wants rid of the last guys player's, then the cycle begins again.
If it was up to me the manager wouldn't be signing any players, he would be working with a director of football to identify players that fit in with the hibernian way of playing football. A coach would,do be brought in to coach the players to play an open and exciting brand of football, if it doesn't work he gets sacked and we're not left with his dud signings.

hhibs
20-08-2013, 11:16 AM
The one, main overriding problem that permeates and affects all other areas of the club?

The near total lack of commitment and a winners mentality throughout the club, from top to bottom.


This,combined with what appears to be a severe lack of effective training and fitness.

Hibernia&Alba
20-08-2013, 11:18 AM
Off the pitch there is insufficient leadership, IMO. What's the plan as to where the club believes it should be and how we get there? There's drift at the very top.

On the pitch just now there's a severe lack of pace and creativity i.e. two essential factors in creating chances. Hence one goal in five competitive games.

As the OP said, we have a great stadium and training ground, but where it matters most, on the pitch, the standard falls dramatically. Give us a vision and some inspiration.

HibsNibs
20-08-2013, 12:50 PM
Decent SPL level players come to Easter Road and suddenly look like they've never played the game before. Others are let go (Spoony, Ivan) and start playing like relative world beaters.
Don't know why it happens but it does. How to fix it ? dunno, the culture of under achievement / failure is so ingrained at Hibs maybe it can't be. :boo hoo::grr::brickwall - or maybe we need an old-school in yer face motivator type manager to literally scare the wage thieves into performing. Fear is a great motivator.
Step forward Terry Butcher.

Fergus52
20-08-2013, 01:06 PM
When you look at players we have who have either played at a higher or similar standard and would get a game in most other SPL sides you come up with:

Williams
McGivern
Nelson
Thomson
Craig
Robertson
OTJ
Collins

That's the majority of our side and so the focus has to look at the manager who has neither played nor managed at this level previously.

I'd throw Taiwo in there too.

Carlisle were desperate to keep him and he was one of their better players.

Dashing Bob S
20-08-2013, 01:13 PM
From the top down:

1. We have an owner who knows nothing and cares less about football. He is content to leave the running of the club to the next man down. That wouldn't, in itself, be a problem, but the next man down is:

2. The senior boardroom figure (I don't know Petrie's exact title these days and couldn't give a toss, he's the main man in the boardroom and its pointless to say otherwise) who is a finance man, and knows nothing about football, and who continually makes poor appointments. Petrie has been unfortunate here - he lucked out on Mowbray and has tried all different variations on that recipe since. I know it's difficult to get somebody with a) passion, b) coaching skills c) organisational skills d) people management and e) media savy (though I personally couldn't care about the last one.) Instead we've had:

3. Managers who continually play footballers out of position. You can argue that a player should be a player etc, but specialism is part of the game. If players like Stevenson were played continually in their best position, they would develop better. The Sproule's, Witherspoons etc thrive when they are deployed this way. Sean Welsh will probably thank Jimmy Scott for tanning his jaw at it hastened his departure for Hibs, and he could develop into a midfield player rather than be stuck at full back or on the wing and demoralised.

I think the fear/caution in the club starts with Farmer/Petrie, transmits to the manager, and through him the players, and ultimately, the fans. It results in us punching below our weight. For Hibs to be defeated three times by Ross County last season is beyond unacceptable, it's patently ridiculous and hopefully we'll look back on blights like this in total astonishment and ask 'what the **** were we playing at?" Right now we are stuck with a big problem as I don't see Hibs under Farmer/Petrie (who have done great things for the club) going anywhere with their style of leadership. I think they have to do what the smartest leaders do; take a long inventory of what the club now needs and what they personally bring to the table, and look at how that gap can be bridged. I don't like filling the boardroom with people and drawing more salaries, but if ever a club needed a Director of Football it's Hibs. Cause our current leadership clearly aren't capable of taking the club onto the next stage.

jdships
20-08-2013, 01:47 PM
I am not sure that there is something inherently wrong at the club - outside of the first team the club is in fairly good health.

i agree with Speedway that at present the underperformance points to the manager who is looking like a lost cause at the moment (though it's fair to say that I like Fenlon and desperately want to see him turn it around, I'm just very doubtful he's able to do so).

I also think that there is a strong fear of failure at the club that it prevents anyone pushing themselves to the limit. I think that is something that needs to be addressed ASAP. There should be challenging and ambitious targets and a strategy in place to achieve those.

Setting expectations across the club of what the targets are and what's deemed success will go a long way to addressing some of the malais that appears to infect the club from time to time.

:top marks

jdships
20-08-2013, 01:52 PM
From the top down:

1. We have an owner who knows nothing and cares less about football. He is content to leave the running of the club to the next man down. That wouldn't, in itself, be a problem, but the next man down is:

2. The senior boardroom figure (I don't know Petrie's exact title these days and couldn't give a toss, he's the main man in the boardroom and its pointless to say otherwise) who is a finance man, and knows nothing about football, and who continually makes poor appointments. Petrie has been unfortunate here - he lucked out on Mowbray and has tried all different variations on that recipe since. I know it's difficult to get somebody with a) passion, b) coaching skills c) organisational skills d) people management and e) media savy (though I personally couldn't care about the last one.) Instead we've had:

3. Managers who continually play footballers out of position. You can argue that a player should be a player etc, but specialism is part of the game. If players like Stevenson were played continually in their best position, they would develop better. The Sproule's, Witherspoons etc thrive when they are deployed this way. Sean Welsh will probably thank Jimmy Scott for tanning his jaw at it hastened his departure for Hibs, and he could develop into a midfield player rather than be stuck at full back or on the wing and demoralised.

I think the fear/caution in the club starts with Farmer/Petrie, transmits to the manager, and through him the players, and ultimately, the fans. It results in us punching below our weight. For Hibs to be defeated three times by Ross County last season is beyond unacceptable, it's patently ridiculous and hopefully we'll look back on blights like this in total astonishment and ask 'what the **** were we playing at?" Right now we are stuck with a big problem as I don't see Hibs under Farmer/Petrie (who have done great things for the club) going anywhere with their style of leadership. I think they have to do what the smartest leaders do; take a long inventory of what the club now needs and what they personally bring to the table, and look at how that gap can be bridged. I don't like filling the boardroom with people and drawing more salaries, but if ever a club needed a Director of Football it's Hibs. Cause our current leadership clearly aren't capable of taking the club onto the next stage.


Sorry must disagree totally with No 1 .
No's 2 and 3 you make fair comment :thumbsup:

I have known STF since the early 1970 's through business and socially and can assure you he is a Hibbee right through and through .
You underestimate STF at your peril :rolleyes:

brian6-2
20-08-2013, 02:10 PM
sick of hearing all this blaming STF and petrie. we have what we have on the pitch which is a half decent team being managed by a complete halfwit.

Chump
20-08-2013, 02:17 PM
I think Brendan Rodgers 180 page dossier on culture, philosophy and a game plan would do wonders at Hibs.

He sets out his vision and the club as a whole are backing him.

We need someone firstly with a vision and then a board who will back that vision.

Easier said than done but it will take a very strong, creative character and PF IMO is not your man and neither is RP.

PF seems to lack creativity and game plan(s) and RP seems to be a narcissist who likes it to be all about himself.

We have the foundations to develop, there is absolutely no doubt about that, but we lack key personnel in every possible football and non-football position so it is a long long way back from here IMO.

Quick fixes is what we've seen for years now at ER - we need stability based on basic fundamentals that are engraved throughout every corner of the club. A proven sports psychologist would be my first signing to get a more positive attitude amongst staff and players.

Hibercelona
20-08-2013, 02:21 PM
What angers me is that when any team takes a 7-0 thumping one week, they come out rampant the next week with something to prove.

But not here, not at Hibs. They come out and look just as slack, just as withdrawn and devoid of any ideas.

There's really no sense of leadership at the club at all. Fenlon doesn't come across as a leader. He comes across as a nice guy that wouldn't know how to cope when being challenged on something.

The club lacks hardmanship. Nobody is willing to step up and take responsibility. It's a game of hotball on and off the pitch. Nobody wants to be landed with the blame, so it just gets passed around instead.

The most frustrating thing about Hibernian Football Club is that we create our own short comings. We create problems that just shouldn't be a problem.

Stringer
20-08-2013, 03:06 PM
Problems at the club.

1. Training isn't intense enough. Collins got booted for trying to add training sessions.
2. Petrie isn't a football man.
3. Pat doesn't send the team out with a specific tactical plan.
4. Getting rid of players like Wotherspoon, he might be inconsistent but was creative.
5. Ever time we concede heads go down, players lack mental strength

Onion
20-08-2013, 03:22 PM
Where do you begin with the basket case that is Hibernian. At the top of course.

Lack of leadership from STF right down through the club. The only time we've looked half decent in the last 15 years on the pitch is when we've had manager who was his own man and knew exactly what they wanted and how to get it - McLeish and Mowbray and perhaps Collins. We now have a lazy, defeatist culture where failure is more than tolerated from Petrie right down through the manager to players to coaches. Until that changes, we are pissing in the wind.

jakeshibs
20-08-2013, 05:59 PM
Sorry must disagree totally with No 1 .
No's 2 and 3 you make fair comment :thumbsup:

I have known STF since the early 1970 's through business and socially and can assure you he is a Hibbee right through and through .
You underestimate STF at your peril :rolleyes:

well said:agree:

BT58
20-08-2013, 06:21 PM
Put JN in charge for next 3 games, i believe that certain players have said that training has improved under JN
Make the team do double training days
Promote the U20 coach to assist JN,,if we can play like the U20s then it surely would be better than yon hoof fitba
Bt

rcarter1
20-08-2013, 10:58 PM
A lot of good points, with a common theme being fear. I think this effects us at all levels, and has been gripping the club for some time. By contrast, Mowbrays team played without fear.

I agree with those leaving Sir Tom right out of this. He will sell to a sensible opportunity when that opportunity presents itself. Top bloke.

Mr RP - sensible and prudent, but not able to select good managers and feart to invest.. until the 200K for Collins?
Major flaw: Doesn't understand football.

Rest of the board: No doubt capable, but football savvy (?)

Manager: Honest and determined, but clearly his instincts are cautious, and loves a defensive midfielder. Out of his depth, and not learning quickly enough it seems. If the board give him time, will he take it and start going for goals?

Team: Decent SPL standard pros, unbalanced in terms of forward/defensive. Injuries not helping. Anxiety from manager and the supporters no doubt rubbing off. Confidence suffering as a result - and due to out of position selections. Lack of attacking outlet clearly demotivates and leads to nervy play. Lack of trust in Fenlon (?), 'scared' of fans reactions (eg - McPake being assasinated while carrying an injury, Vine being written off already, Stevenson and Mullen crucified, Wotherspoon.... A few leaders like Thomson, Robertson and perhaps others might turn things around (?). Need attacking outlet (broken record).

Fans: At wits end, nervous, too many false dawns, embarrassing humpings, defensive gutless tactics/performances. Ready to jump down the throat of the first player to misplace a pass, direly need of inspiration from the team... Choice to support team and do our best to lift the mood, or go all out to change regime (realistic?).

Diagnosis: Top down, supporter reinforced, paralysis.

Suggestion for cure - Top down clean out of the whole organisation replaced with in the know -experienced- football people at all levels board - manager - coaches. Build a balanced attack minded team willing to go out and take teams on without fear, with the goal of being best of the rest if possible.

How to implement cure: No idea....

Miguel
20-08-2013, 10:59 PM
Lots of good points made on this thread.
I'll try and make some too.
1 Ownership: STF is the only game in town. He's never going to splash the cash, but he does provide stability. People are not queuing up to buy Hibs. He's also not a young man though and, something I've never heard anyone mentioning, what happens when he's gone?
2 Leadership: RP has, by and large, done a good job on the club's financed and in the provision of infrastructure and facilities, but he isn't a football expert, and doesn't seem to have 'the vision thing' where that is concerned. We need someone alongside him and STF who does and can assemble a strategic plan, which sets out realistic goals and how to achieve them.
3 Expertise: Modern football is a science. I think John Collins was on the right track, but changing a football culture at one club, let alone a nation, is a massive ask. A sports psychologist should come as standard. I also like the rugby model of having specific coaches for specific parts of the team.
4 Management: We haven't had a proper manager since Mowbray and possibly Collins. Rather than paying massive waged for players, we should concentrate cash on finding a proven manager for the level of football we play at, or higher - I can't believe that a professional recruitment consultancy wouldn't be able to find one appropriate to our circumstances.
Culture: I can't name names - I really can't for work reasons - but someone who was working with Hibs up until fairly recently told me that the club is too nice. He said it was a really happy workplace, where everyone got on with each other, but the downside of that, compared with other clubs he'd worked at, was that there was a lack of 'edge', of people pushing each other to achieve.I think he
May have a point.
5 Players: The point is repeatedly made that a majort part of our problem is that Hibs teams are too soft. Fenton, I believe, has tried to address that, but sometimes physical toughness hasn't been matched by mental toughness. I'm not talking about Roy Keane here, but, in our league we need players who are not just physical, but mentally tough. Director of football and psychologist needed urgently I think.
One final point worth making: I watched the Scottish Youth Cup game against Hearts a few seasons back and here were young laddies playing the game as it should be played. What happens between that level and first team football?...

Moon unit
20-08-2013, 11:26 PM
No pace or width!..

macd123
21-08-2013, 01:30 AM
7Poor signings since John Park left. I believe it's that simple.

Saorsa
21-08-2013, 01:42 AM
The one, main overriding problem that permeates and affects all other areas of the club?


The near total lack of commitment and a winners mentality throughout the club, from top to bottom.I would say just at the top, I dinnae think there's any lack of that below anything tae do with the 1st team and/or those in charge of it, but it does start right at the top. A total lack of leadership, direction and ambition IMO. Happy tae be 'safe', and if we win something while we're at it, great, if we dinnae, who cares. If the flack gets too much for those at the top, they just blame the person(s) below them, get rid and start again and we move on tae the next failure.

Waxy
21-08-2013, 05:44 AM
The people in the jobs at ER have proven they are not good enough.
Suppose anyone could drive a formula one car.
But we need a proper driver.

IWasThere2016
21-08-2013, 06:08 AM
The pivotal appointment at the club is that of the manager.

Post Mowbray, RP has persistently got this wrong - and RP will be there for the next appointment.

Hopefully, the law of averages mean RP will get lucky and get one right soon. Until then things will not improve IMHO.

cocteautwin
21-08-2013, 06:10 AM
Rowan Vine's beard is the problem. It just about sums up the respect most of the players have for passion, discipline and drive. Someone gets out of their bed in the morning and looks at that in the mirror and thinks it's respectable needs to go away and have a long hard re-think about their life. Do you think Sir Alex would put up with one of his players with a beard like that? Not in a million years. They'd be sent back home to get it off and come back when they feel worthy of at least feeling well presented when representing the club.

Waxy
21-08-2013, 06:28 AM
Yep.
Like that Dayton against Killie in the cup.
The entire match was almost played inside his beard.

Hibby Kay-Yay
21-08-2013, 06:30 AM
No vision and no leadership.

I remember Collins when he signed saying that he really liked what the managers (Fenlon) plans and aim is for the club. Was this ever announced to the fans?

Do the club ever share the goals or ambitions for the season ahead? I remember some managers saying we should be a top 3 club blah blah blah. But never saying, This season we are aiming for top 4 and at least semi finals in the cups.

So better communication around our aims and leadership to get us there

Bostonhibby
21-08-2013, 08:21 AM
We have regressed over several seasons into being a team everyone now expects to beat, Easter Road is nothing like a fortress, we have not had a consistent on field leader since Rob Jones and there has been a lack of fight and passion for the club amongst the players for some time. There have been a few exceptions to this but for various reasons they don't stay with us for long enough.
I don't have the complete answer but leadership starts at the top.

Expecting Rain
21-08-2013, 08:25 AM
There`s a real lack of quality and balance in the team which in turn promotes a lack of confidence and doubt. Players need to be played in their specialised positions, they have to play without the fear factor.
Irrespective of your role in the team wether you be a defender, midfielder or forward you should enjoy the challenge and be encouraged to that effect by the manager.
Without the required financial advantages it looks like East Mains is our likely source for any degree of success and the youngsters need all the assistance and patience of the supporters in their development.

Jones28
21-08-2013, 08:31 AM
Plenty of our fans need a change in attitude also. Far to many players getting screamed at the "get rid" and that doesnt encourage the team to play good football. A wee example - last night Newcastle were 4-0 down again Man City even at that point the goalie looked to roll the ball out to a full back to restart play. A lot of our fans go mental if they see that. We need to learn to keep the ball and not go mental if it doesnt always come off.

Agree with this. All too often you hear people screaming to get the ball passed forward when the back 4 are playing it about between themselves and the midfield. All the comes from it is a punt and loss of possession

Speedway
21-08-2013, 08:49 AM
Problems at the club.

1. Training isn't intense enough. Collins got booted for trying to add training sessions. - No, Collins resigned to avoid his reputation being tarnished by being at the helm of a sinking ship due to lack of investment comparative to income obtained.

2. Petrie isn't a football man. What difference would that make?
3. Pat doesn't send the team out with a specific tactical plan. How do you know?
4. Getting rid of players like Wotherspoon, he might be inconsistent but was creative. No-one would have missed Wotherspoon had he not started well at the Saints.
5. Ever time we concede heads go down, players lack mental strength That one I think you're spot on with.


Where do you begin with the basket case that is Hibernian. At the top of course.

Lack of leadership from STF right down through the club. The only time we've looked half decent in the last 15 years on the pitch is when we've had manager who was his own man and knew exactly what they wanted and how to get it - McLeish and Mowbray and perhaps Collins. We now have a lazy, defeatist culture where failure is more than tolerated from Petrie right down through the manager to players to coaches. Until that changes, we are pissing in the wind.

Top post, Onion.


I'd throw Taiwo in there too.

Carlisle were desperate to keep him and he was one of their better players.

He's very technically gifted but what does he actually do?


Sorry must disagree totally with No 1 .
No's 2 and 3 you make fair comment :thumbsup:

I have known STF since the early 1970 's through business and socially and can assure you he is a Hibbee right through and through .
You underestimate STF at your peril :rolleyes:

So what is STF doing about this, if he's a Hibee through and through?


Rowan Vine's beard is the problem. It just about sums up the respect most of the players have for passion, discipline and drive. Someone gets out of their bed in the morning and looks at that in the mirror and thinks it's respectable needs to go away and have a long hard re-think about their life. Do you think Sir Alex would put up with one of his players with a beard like that? Not in a million years. They'd be sent back home to get it off and come back when they feel worthy of at least feeling well presented when representing the club.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Dan Sarf
21-08-2013, 08:55 AM
Could it be too much laughing?

Sunderland striker Steven Fletcher has been involved in an angry training-ground bust-up with one of manager Paolo di Canio's coaching staff, the Scotland international being told that he could find a new club if he did not want to accept rules against laughing during training sessions.
Full story: Daily Mail

Bostonhibby
21-08-2013, 09:01 AM
We should focus all our efforts on a minimum acceptable standard for facial hair at Hibernian, I am confident Rod will listen to us on that one at least. We could call it Hair on (or off) Hibs. A worthwhile distraction frome the real issues as far as the board are concerned I am sure.

Once that's sorted out we can sort out pedicure problems and hair styling at east mains before moving onto coloured boots, we should be in the 3rd division by then.

Waxy
21-08-2013, 09:01 AM
Rules against laughing?
Sounds a bit like relationships.
Allowed to laugh and be happy for a month.
Then thats it banned for 5 to 10 years.
More if your unlucky.

cocteautwin
21-08-2013, 09:07 AM
We should focus all our efforts on a minimum acceptable standard for facial hair at Hibernian, I am confident Rod will listen to us on that one at least. We could call it Hair on (or off) Hibs. A worthwhile distraction frome the real issues as far as the board are concerned I am sure.

Once that's sorted out we can sort out pedicure problems and hair styling at east mains before moving onto coloured boots, we should be in the 3rd division by then.

The minimum acceptable standard is nothing at all. Gotta be clean shaven. What the hell is that fluff Stanton's got on his chin? Did he draw that on with a pen?

Clean shaven, short hair, combed over in a parting like the Famous Five.

And while I'm having a rant, what's with the shell suits for the non playing representatives of the club? They should be in suits, Hibs ties and also cleanly shaven.

Show a bit of respect Rowan (an anyone else with crap beards)

:greengrin

cocteautwin
21-08-2013, 09:11 AM
moving onto coloured boots

That's another thing that needs addressed. Unless you are Ronaldo keep the coloured boots in the man bag boys. Needs to be black with 3 white stripes. Anything else is deficient.

Stevie Reid
21-08-2013, 09:12 AM
The pivotal appointment at the club is that of the manager.

Post Mowbray, RP has persistently got this wrong - and RP will be there for the next appointment.

Hopefully, the law of averages mean RP will get lucky and get one right soon. Until then things will not improve IMHO.

I'll do the Collins thing again - here for 14 months, in his time here we won the League Cup with a 5-1 win over Killie, we got to a SC semi and had notable wins over Celtic, Rangers and Hearts. Our home record under him was P 26 W 14 D 8 L 4 and his overall win percentage was 43% (30% loss ratio) out of 54 games. We have won only 9 major honours in our 138 year history, and JC was in charge for our most recent.

Petrie's record of appointing managers is poor - but Collins was not a failure.

J-C
21-08-2013, 09:18 AM
I'll do the Collins thing again - here for 14 months, in his time here we won the League Cup with a 5-1 win over Killie, we got to a SC semi and had notable wins over Celtic, Rangers and Hearts. Our home record under him was P 26 W 14 D 8 L 4 and his overall win percentage was 43% (30% loss ratio) out of 54 games. We have won only 9 major honours in our 138 year history, and JC was in charge for our most recent.

Petrie's record of appointing managers is poor - but Collins was not a failure.


This.
I think Collins main fault was appointing Craig as his assistant and leaning too much on him for guidance, especially when it came to signings, his first forage into the transfer market was less than spectacular to say the least.

matty_f
21-08-2013, 09:18 AM
You know, I've been reading this thread (and contributed to it) and amongst all the pondering and good suggestions, there is this nagging thought I have that perhaps there's nothing significantly wrong with the club right now, that it literally could just be a case of a wee bad run that almost very team has from time to time, and that we might just be tearing ourselves up over nothing much.


And I say that having watched all our games this season (and some pre-season).

Saorsa
21-08-2013, 09:26 AM
You know, I've been reading this thread (and contributed to it) and amongst all the pondering and good suggestions, there is this nagging thought I have that perhaps there's nothing significantly wrong with the club right now, that it literally could just be a case of a wee bad run that almost very team has from time to time, and that we might just be tearing ourselves up over nothing much.


And I say that having watched all our games this season (and some pre-season).A wee bad run! That's the 2nd time I've seen that, was last season a wee bad run? was the season before a wee bad run? Was Colin Deadwood a wee bad run? 3 consecutive bottom 6 finishes, is that just a wee bad run? It's nae wonder they keep thinking they can get away with it when so many people accept it as things such as just a wee bad run. The fitba at ER has only been going one way, that's backwards, since 2007. Is that just a wee bad run too? What we are seeing this season isnae the start of a wee bad run, it's a continuation of years of pish!

Stevie Reid
21-08-2013, 09:31 AM
You know, I've been reading this thread (and contributed to it) and amongst all the pondering and good suggestions, there is this nagging thought I have that perhaps there's nothing significantly wrong with the club right now, that it literally could just be a case of a wee bad run that almost very team has from time to time, and that we might just be tearing ourselves up over nothing much.


And I say that having watched all our games this season (and some pre-season).

I'd love to think that could be the case Matty, but the lack of chances created and any visible pattern to our play doesn't bode well. That said, if Vine, Craig and Collins were to suddenly find their best form we may be onto something, but I really feel we need a vital spark to be added in the form of a new signing.

I certainly haven't contributed to the many threads questioning the state of the football club from top to bottom, I don't think we are in the doomsday scenario that many seem to think - though I do completely understand why so many people are completely scunnered right now. I can't believe how bad we've been, and there's been no reaction at all from the players to any of the bad results lately.

I didn't think that Motherwell was too bad, but the Hearts and Dundee Utd games were dreadful IMO.

matty_f
21-08-2013, 09:43 AM
A wee bad run! That's the 2nd time I've seen that, was last season a wee bad run? was the season before a wee bad run? Was Colin Deadwood a wee bad run? 3 consecutive bottom 6 finishes, is that just a wee bad run? It's nae wonder they keep thinking they can get away with it when so many people accept it as things such as just a wee bad run. The fitba at ER has only been going one way, that's backwards, since 2007. Is that just a wee bad run too? What we are seeing this season isnae the start of a wee bad run, it's a continuation of years of pish!

Last season was a baw hair away from top 6 and we had a great cup run. We played some good football at times.

This season has been pish. Turgid football played with seemingly no confidence or freedom but we're only three games into the league season after all, and to be fair to Fenlon he's yet to have his first choice defence available, and lost two of his creative players to injury.

Speedway
21-08-2013, 09:43 AM
You know, I've been reading this thread (and contributed to it) and amongst all the pondering and good suggestions, there is this nagging thought I have that perhaps there's nothing significantly wrong with the club right now, that it literally could just be a case of a wee bad run that almost very team has from time to time, and that we might just be tearing ourselves up over nothing much.


And I say that having watched all our games this season (and some pre-season).

A wee bad run being Fenlon's 26 wins in 77 games having scored 94 goals and conceded 126?

matty_f
21-08-2013, 09:45 AM
I'd love to think that could be the case Matty, but the lack of chances created and any visible pattern to our play doesn't bode well. That said, if Vine, Craig and Collins were to suddenly find their best form we may be onto something, but I really feel we need a vital spark to be added in the form of a new signing.

I certainly haven't contributed to the many threads questioning the state of the football club from top to bottom, I don't think we are in the doomsday scenario that many seem to think - though I do completely understand why so many people are completely scunnered right now. I can't believe how bad we've been, and there's been no reaction at all from the players to any of the bad results lately.

I didn't think that Motherwell was too bad, but the Hearts and Dundee Utd games were dreadful IMO.

Tend to agree with all that.

Speedway
21-08-2013, 09:46 AM
I'm starting to think that Fenlon will be kept on as long as we're still in the cups.

matty_f
21-08-2013, 09:47 AM
A wee bad run being Fenlon's 26 wins in 77 games having scored 94 goals and conceded 126?

Aye. :greengrin
Bear in mind a chunk of those games came in the post-CC horror show though.

matty_f
21-08-2013, 09:49 AM
I'm starting to think that Fenlon will be kept on as long as we're still in the cups.

I think it'll take a lot to see him go. Surviving 9-0 and a derby defeat is some feat, if he can ride those results out, he's a good chance of seeing out his contract. Which is a worry.

neilmartinrocks
21-08-2013, 09:49 AM
That's another thing that needs addressed. Unless you are Ronaldo keep the coloured boots in the man bag boys. Needs to be black with 3 white stripes. Anything else is deficient.

Coloured boots should only be allowed for players who score above 7/10. in the papers. ;)

Scottie
21-08-2013, 09:50 AM
A wee bad run! That's the 2nd time I've seen that, was last season a wee bad run? was the season before a wee bad run? Was Colin Deadwood a wee bad run? 3 consecutive bottom 6 finishes, is that just a wee bad run? It's nae wonder they keep thinking they can get away with it when so many people accept it as things such as just a wee bad run. The fitba at ER has only been going one way, that's backwards, since 2007. Is that just a wee bad run too? What we are seeing this season isnae the start of a wee bad run, it's a continuation of years of pish!

Spot on DD

Hibernian a club content with mediocrity :grr:

JimBHibees
21-08-2013, 09:56 AM
You know, I've been reading this thread (and contributed to it) and amongst all the pondering and good suggestions, there is this nagging thought I have that perhaps there's nothing significantly wrong with the club right now, that it literally could just be a case of a wee bad run that almost very team has from time to time, and that we might just be tearing ourselves up over nothing much.


And I say that having watched all our games this season (and some pre-season).

We had an awful run from Christmas to the split which ended (I admit arguably unfairly due to awful ref decisions) when we finished the season quite well though playing bottom 6 teams. Our cup run was good though the alarm bells were ringing massively in the semi. Our style of play to me is highly pedestrian and slow, there seems a real lack of sharpness in the passing and movement and as importantly there is a chronic lack of pace all over the side. We are not in any way a good team to watch.

I watched alot of the Partick Thistle game on Friday and they were excellent to watch and were everything Hibs hadnt been against the same opponents days earlier. Great movement, touch and inventive play which we havent played like for years. How can a team and coaching set up which would have been put together on a fraction of what ours has been play like that when we struggle with alot of the basics. While I have defended PF to a large degree for a while the way we have started this season has been criminal with no improvement at all in the way and style we play. I am amazed he is still here.

Get Shiels in with JN and at least get us passing the ball about in a decent and attractive way.

JimBHibees
21-08-2013, 09:59 AM
I think it'll take a lot to see him go. Surviving 9-0 and a derby defeat is some feat, if he can ride those results out, he's a good chance of seeing out his contract. Which is a worry.

A massive worry as the Malmo home game and the derby defeat to the worst Hearts team in 20 years were in no way ordinary defeats. The lack of any reaction to these games is/was the most worrying thing.

matty_f
21-08-2013, 10:00 AM
We had an awful run from Christmas to the split which ended (I admit arguably unfairly due to awful ref decisions) when we finished the season quite well though playing bottom 6 teams. Our cup run was good though the alarm bells were ringing massively in the semi. Our style of play to me is highly pedestrian and slow, there seems a real lack of sharpness in the passing and movement and as importantly there is a chronic lack of pace all over the side. We are not in any way a good team to watch.

I watched alot of the Partick Thistle game on Friday and they were excellent to watch and were everything Hibs hadnt been against the same opponents days earlier. Great movement, touch and inventive play which we havent played like for years. How can a team and coaching set up which would have been put together on a fraction of what ours has been play like that when we struggle with alot of the basics. While I have defended PF to a large degree for a while the way we have started this season has been criminal with no improvement at all in the way and style we play. I am amazed he is still here.

Get Shiels in with JN and at least get us passing the ball about in a decent and attractive way.

Agree with most of that too.

Andy74
21-08-2013, 10:09 AM
I think it'll take a lot to see him go. Surviving 9-0 and a derby defeat is some feat, if he can ride those results out, he's a good chance of seeing out his contract. Which is a worry.

It's a worry if we don't see a change in our play when or if we get new wide players in or our current ones fit again.

I like him, back him, but don't think our approach just now is good so I'm at the stage where whilst I wouldn't actively be looking to empty him it will be time to go if this cant be addressed. I was a bit hasty after the derby with emotions high to say he should go!

I go back to us playing with Cairney and Wotherspoon in form and some of the stuff we played was a joy to watch. We were mentally tough too and I stand by Deegan being key to that as will as a fit McPake.

For long stretches, including right now, we've been without fit or in form wide players. That's why I'm still convinced this way we are playing now is not what Fenlon wants or expects.

The wide player thing will make or break him. He either gets a decent one or two in or the likes of Cairney, Harris or Stanton come in and deliver. The thing is, he probably hasn't got that long right now so I very much hope he is at the getting one in stage, very soon.

Stevie Reid
21-08-2013, 10:14 AM
A massive worry as the Malmo home game and the derby defeat to the worst Hearts team in 20 years were in no way ordinary defeats. The lack of any reaction to these games is/was the most worrying thing.


Agree with most of that too.

Along with you guys I have spent a great deal of time defending Pat on this board, and one of the main things that I used to say in his defence, especially during the slump last season, was that I didn't believe that he was a negative manager by default - I genuinely believed that the nice open football we played when we were at our best last season was what he wanted as much as possible, and that in a league like ours it was fairly useful to be able to put in stuffy, defensive performances when we weren't at our best (though the slump last year was very difficult to watch).

However, I just can't make that argument any more - whilst I will always argue that our best performances under Pat shouldn't be forgotten, the way we have started this season is just plain depressing, and the football, or lack of it, will genuinely turn supporters away at a time when we the extra numbers, combined with our size as a club, could make a big impact on a weakened SPL this season.

I genuinely believe that we did make big strides last season from the all time low of Calderwood, and saw 7th place as an acceptable stepping stone on the way to even bigger progress this year - but the early signs are very worrying. At the moment, either Pat is giving the players poor instructions which is leading to poor performances, or they are ignoring what he says and that is causing the completely inept displays so far this season - either way, I really can't see how he can turn it around, especially with so many of the support already lost.

Most worrying is what we do in the transfer market before the deadline - if we sign no one else, Pat will surely be sacked due to results anyway, leaving us stuck until January. We need more pace and creativity in the team as a matter of real urgency - the fact that we lack pace in every department is indefensible really, we have no one who can get us up the park quickly, and make things happen. Harris being injured is really unfortunate, as is Cairney at a time when he was apparently in good shape, but we should have more options than we do. The bench has offered us nothing in the games so far this season, unforgivable for a squad our size.

matty_f
21-08-2013, 10:20 AM
Along with you guys I have spent a great deal of time defending Pat on this board, and one of the main things that I used to say in his defence, especially during the slump last season, was that I didn't believe that he was a negative manager by default - I genuinely believed that the nice open football we played when we were at our best last season was what he wanted as much as possible, and that in a league like ours it was fairly useful to be able to put in stuffy, defensive performances when we weren't at our best (though the slump last year was very difficult to watch).

However, I just can't make that argument any more - whilst I will always argue that our best performances under Pat shouldn't be forgotten, the way we have started this season is just plain depressing, and the football, or lack of it, will genuinely turn supporters away at a time when we the extra numbers, combined with our size as a club, could make a big impact on a weakened SPL this season.

I genuinely believe that we did make big strides last season from the all time low of Calderwood, and saw 7th place as an acceptable stepping stone on the way to even bigger progress this year - but the early signs are very worrying. At the moment, either Pat is giving the players poor instructions which is leading to poor performances, or they are ignoring what he says and that is causing the completely inept displays so far this season - either way, I really can't see how he can turn it around, especially with so many of the support already lost.

Most worrying is what we do in the transfer market before the deadline - if we sign no one else, Pat will surely be sacked due to results anyway, leaving us stuck until January. We need more pace and creativity in the team as a matter of real urgency - the fact that we lack pace in every department is indefensible really, we have no one who can get us up the park quickly, and make things happen.

I've long since stopped thinking that Fenlon was up to it, the last few games have made me consider getting one of those 10 year football banning orders they warn about before the games, just in case I was of a mind to go back for more!

Stevie Reid
21-08-2013, 10:21 AM
I've long since stopped thinking that Fenlon was up to it, the last few games have made me consider getting one of those 10 year football banning orders they warn about before the games, just in case I was of a mind to go back for more!

:greengrin

IWasThere2016
21-08-2013, 10:30 AM
I'll do the Collins thing again - here for 14 months, in his time here we won the League Cup with a 5-1 win over Killie, we got to a SC semi and had notable wins over Celtic, Rangers and Hearts. Our home record under him was P 26 W 14 D 8 L 4 and his overall win percentage was 43% (30% loss ratio) out of 54 games. We have won only 9 major honours in our 138 year history, and JC was in charge for our most recent.

Petrie's record of appointing managers is poor - but Collins was not a failure.

JC had the value of Mowbray's legacy/players.

He was not a failure due to the CIS win, however there has to be doubts about 'his eye for a player' as the signings were a failure of his.

We were on the slide when he left - were we not??

Andy74
21-08-2013, 10:34 AM
JC had the value of Mowbray's legacy/players.

He was not a failure due to the CIS win, however there has to be doubts about 'his eye for a player' as the signings were a failure of his.

We were on the slide when he left - were we not??

Something like 1 win in 12. It was getting a bit comical with goalkeeper rolling out to full back, back to keeper, back to full back, back to keeper.

Great ideas about the game but must be doubts about his ability to actually get that over to people.

When Mixu first came in it was actually a relief to see us being a little bit more direct, though in time that probably went too far that way.

We don't ask for much, just fast flowing, passing, attacking and winning football at all times! :greengrin

Andy74
21-08-2013, 10:36 AM
Along with you guys I have spent a great deal of time defending Pat on this board, and one of the main things that I used to say in his defence, especially during the slump last season, was that I didn't believe that he was a negative manager by default - I genuinely believed that the nice open football we played when we were at our best last season was what he wanted as much as possible, and that in a league like ours it was fairly useful to be able to put in stuffy, defensive performances when we weren't at our best (though the slump last year was very difficult to watch).

However, I just can't make that argument any more - whilst I will always argue that our best performances under Pat shouldn't be forgotten, the way we have started this season is just plain depressing, and the football, or lack of it, will genuinely turn supporters away at a time when we the extra numbers, combined with our size as a club, could make a big impact on a weakened SPL this season.

I genuinely believe that we did make big strides last season from the all time low of Calderwood, and saw 7th place as an acceptable stepping stone on the way to even bigger progress this year - but the early signs are very worrying. At the moment, either Pat is giving the players poor instructions which is leading to poor performances, or they are ignoring what he says and that is causing the completely inept displays so far this season - either way, I really can't see how he can turn it around, especially with so many of the support already lost.

Most worrying is what we do in the transfer market before the deadline - if we sign no one else, Pat will surely be sacked due to results anyway, leaving us stuck until January. We need more pace and creativity in the team as a matter of real urgency - the fact that we lack pace in every department is indefensible really, we have no one who can get us up the park quickly, and make things happen. Harris being injured is really unfortunate, as is Cairney at a time when he was apparently in good shape, but we should have more options than we do. The bench has offered us nothing in the games so far this season, unforgivable for a squad our size.

Can't argue with much of that.

I wonder how much he though that Cariney and Harris loked good coming back and with Handling and Stanton able to play wide as well as Craig and Vine (if he had him in mind then) he didn't have a pressing need in that area so let some earlier targets go?

I hope for his sake he has some ideas on that front.

Stevie Reid
21-08-2013, 10:38 AM
JC had the value of Mowbray's legacy/players.

He was not a failure due to the CIS win, however there has to be doubts about 'his eye for a player' as the signings were a failure of his.

We were on the slide when he left - were we not??

I certainly share the concerns about some of the players he brought in. However, legacy or not, he still had to manage these players, and had us playing some great football.

I think a lot has been made of the apparent slump before he left - we were 17 league games in and had been knocked out of the league cup by an excellent Motherwell side.

Out of the 17 games, the record was W 7 D 6 L 4

The four defeats came in his last 8 games, where the record was W 1 D 3 L 4, and the four defeats were Motherwell away (with ten men), St. Mirren at home, and Aberdeen and Inverness away (where we were denied a Donaldson goal which crossed the line, IIRC). The St. Mirren game was a dreadful result and performance, but the other defeats were no disgrace.

We weren't in good form, but were hardly in a terminal decline. I wasn't devastated when he left and the signs were a little worrying, but I will remember his time very fondly. Some of the results and performances were exceptional, not least in that final.

JimBHibees
21-08-2013, 10:43 AM
Along with you guys I have spent a great deal of time defending Pat on this board, and one of the main things that I used to say in his defence, especially during the slump last season, was that I didn't believe that he was a negative manager by default - I genuinely believed that the nice open football we played when we were at our best last season was what he wanted as much as possible, and that in a league like ours it was fairly useful to be able to put in stuffy, defensive performances when we weren't at our best (though the slump last year was very difficult to watch).

However, I just can't make that argument any more - whilst I will always argue that our best performances under Pat shouldn't be forgotten, the way we have started this season is just plain depressing, and the football, or lack of it, will genuinely turn supporters away at a time when we the extra numbers, combined with our size as a club, could make a big impact on a weakened SPL this season.

I genuinely believe that we did make big strides last season from the all time low of Calderwood, and saw 7th place as an acceptable stepping stone on the way to even bigger progress this year - but the early signs are very worrying. At the moment, either Pat is giving the players poor instructions which is leading to poor performances, or they are ignoring what he says and that is causing the completely inept displays so far this season - either way, I really can't see how he can turn it around, especially with so many of the support already lost.

Most worrying is what we do in the transfer market before the deadline - if we sign no one else, Pat will surely be sacked due to results anyway, leaving us stuck until January. We need more pace and creativity in the team as a matter of real urgency - the fact that we lack pace in every department is indefensible really, we have no one who can get us up the park quickly, and make things happen. Harris being injured is really unfortunate, as is Cairney at a time when he was apparently in good shape, but we should have more options than we do. The bench has offered us nothing in the games so far this season, unforgivable for a squad our size.

Agree with that however to me he couldnt really have been banking on Cairney given he had an incredible dip in form for 7 months of last season, quite why he was brought in at Hampden is another mysterious one. Also Harris is what 18, again he shouldnt have been seen as a mainstay IMO highly promising though he is. As you say there needed to be more options with pace brought in, the team is very one paced and the inclusion of Vine, Craig and OTJ while effective players doesnt really change that. Our energy levels in pressing other teams is poor and our possession pedestrian. I am genuinely surprised he is still here as I am amazed if there wasn't discussion about replacing and getting a new guy in this side of the window closing.

Stevie Reid
21-08-2013, 10:43 AM
Can't argue with much of that.

I wonder how much he though that Cariney and Harris loked good coming back and with Handling and Stanton able to play wide as well as Craig and Vine (if he had him in mind then) he didn't have a pressing need in that area so let some earlier targets go?

I hope for his sake he has some ideas on that front.

So do I! He clearly has a lot of faith in Stanton, which is nice to see, and there is an argument that there was enough creativity there prior to the two injuries - still leaves a chronic lack of pace though.

Andy74
21-08-2013, 10:46 AM
Agree with that however to me he couldnt really have been banking on Cairney given he had an incredible dip in form for 7 months of last season, quite why he was brought in at Hampden is another mysterious one. Also Harris is what 18, again he shouldnt have been seen as a mainstay IMO highly promising though he is. As you say there needed to be more options with pace brought in, the team is very one paced and the inclusion of Vine, Craig and OTJ while effective players doesnt really change that. Our energy levels in pressing other teams is poor and our possession pedestrian. I am genuinely surprised he is still here as I am amazed if there wasn't discussion about replacing and getting a new guy in this side of the window closing.

Cairney came back incredibly slim and fit, I think he would have been in decent form when they got back training.

I'm thinking at the moment the club would rather that we sorted the problem areas we have rather than disrupt the entire club again.

Hopefully we do actually address things or we will have to make a bigger change.

JimBHibees
21-08-2013, 10:47 AM
Something like 1 win in 12. It was getting a bit comical with goalkeeper rolling out to full back, back to keeper, back to full back, back to keeper.

Great ideas about the game but must be doubts about his ability to actually get that over to people.

When Mixu first came in it was actually a relief to see us being a little bit more direct, though in time that probably went too far that way.

We don't ask for much, just fast flowing, passing, attacking and winning football at all times! :greengrin

I would settle for entertaining football while winning 1 in 3 at present.

HUTCHYHIBBY
21-08-2013, 10:49 AM
Do the club ever share the goals or ambitions for the season ahead?

It would be interesting to hear what the clubs expectations were for a season and would help provide some sort of insight to the fans as to how the club perceives itself.

Perhaps even a minimum expectation would be interesting.

Andy74
21-08-2013, 10:56 AM
Something to think about - when we were playing really well early last season out ream would probably be:

Williams
Clancy
McPake
Hanlon
McGivern
Wotherspoon
Deegan
Claros
Cairney
Griffiths
Doyle

We have three of those available now and one of those hasn't been fit much. Some injured, some back to clubs and we tried to keep them, others turned down our offers to stay. How much of this has been Pat's choice and are we arally just starting again? We can't really say this team has been building for 2 yrs or whatever can we?

HUTCHYHIBBY
21-08-2013, 11:00 AM
Hibernian a club content with mediocrity :grr:

Thats certainly the impression the club appears content to portray.

Stevie Reid
21-08-2013, 11:02 AM
Something to think about - when we were playing really well early last season out ream would probably be:

Williams
Clancy
McPake
Hanlon
McGivern
Wotherspoon
Deegan
Claros
Cairney
Griffiths
Doyle

We have three of those available now and one of those hasn't been fit much. Some injured, some back to clubs and we tried to keep them, others turned down our offers to stay. How much of this has been Pat's choice and are we arally just starting again? We can't really say this team has been building for 2 yrs or whatever can we?

Yeah I made a similar point last week, that all of the main factors in our best performances last season are either no longer here or unavailable for some time.

However, we should still have some kind of discernible style of play without these guys.

jacomo
21-08-2013, 04:35 PM
Something like 1 win in 12. It was getting a bit comical with goalkeeper rolling out to full back, back to keeper, back to full back, back to keeper.

Great ideas about the game but must be doubts about his ability to actually get that over to people.

When Mixu first came in it was actually a relief to see us being a little bit more direct, though in time that probably went too far that way.

We don't ask for much, just fast flowing, passing, attacking and winning football at all times! :greengrin

The criticisms about JC's signings are merited, but can't agree with this. He got Hibs to put in some terrifically composed, controlled performances. Each player seemed to know what they were doing.

And yes, we were on a bad run when he left, but Hibs also started that season with an unbeaten run up to the International Break in October.

rcarter1
21-08-2013, 05:49 PM
John Collins would be a good member of a coaching team, but being a manager is something else. List all the really good managers, and you will find authority figures in high abundance. JC seemed to lack this, and towards the end looked like a broken man. What has he done since in a managerial role? Im afraid good managers need a lot of strings to their bow, in depth knowledge of the game (from back to front), a strong vision of how to build a team, and authority/leadership of one sort or another. Good managers rarely (if ever) lose the dressing room, and know how to divide and conquer when required (Alex Fergason take a bow). They understand that the team comes first, second and last, and that individuals that dont pull their weight/cause hassle are punted ASAP.

Pat Fenlon, Coco, Yogi, Mixu, JC...

I dont think any of the above are even close to having all the required attributes.

RP must have very few friends in the football world (bar suits and yes men at the higher echelons), if he is unable to get on board a manager that can take on the likes of T Butcher, T Wright, S McCall, D McInnes, D Adams, A Archibald.....

blackpoolhibs
21-08-2013, 05:51 PM
It's a worry if we don't see a change in our play when or if we get new wide players in or our current ones fit again.

I like him, back him, but don't think our approach just now is good so I'm at the stage where whilst I wouldn't actively be looking to empty him it will be time to go if this cant be addressed. I was a bit hasty after the derby with emotions high to say he should go!

I go back to us playing with Cairney and Wotherspoon in form and some of the stuff we played was a joy to watch. We were mentally tough too and I stand by Deegan being key to that as will as a fit McPake.

For long stretches, including right now, we've been without fit or in form wide players. That's why I'm still convinced this way we are playing now is not what Fenlon wants or expects.

The wide player thing will make or break him. He either gets a decent one or two in or the likes of Cairney, Harris or Stanton come in and deliver. The thing is, he probably hasn't got that long right now so I very much hope he is at the getting one in stage, very soon.

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?269977-Fenlon-out-(post-derby)&p=3713180&highlight=#post3713180

:confused:

Andy74
21-08-2013, 06:12 PM
http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?269977-Fenlon-out-(post-derby)&p=3713180&highlight=#post3713180

:confused:

Keep reading ya bam!:greengrin I blame drink.

blackpoolhibs
21-08-2013, 06:28 PM
Keep reading ya bam!:greengrin I blame drink.

I blame old age. :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
21-08-2013, 08:01 PM
We must be the easiest team in the league to defend against and that probably explains our lack of goals.

When you are defending against Hibs all you have to remember is that if you stick a couple of defenders on our striker ( or on the odd occasion strikers ) you have pretty well got us sown up, because you just know that even if we had Cairney on the right and Harris on the left when the ball comes into the box the chances are that our 4 / 5 midfield players will be 20 yards away bricking it just in case the opposition get the ball back and mount an attack.

You know that if the Hibs midfield has the ball that the guy on it is the man to watch, because you can rest assured that there will not be another midfielder running past him into space looking for a pass which will take him into the final 3rd. Because of that the opposition defence also know that they can concentrate their full attention on the striker / strikers because there will be little or no threat from the middle of the park as Hibs turgidly pass the ball from one side of the park to the other.

To compound all of this, we move the ball so slowly that our opponents usually have mountains of time to get themselves organized.

This isnt aimed only at Pat Fenlon ... Hibs havnt had a midfielder who could present the basic skill of making telling runs into the box since Pat McGinlay.

Watch any of the teams in the big leagues around Europe ... when the ball is being moved forward its done with pace and a wave of midfield players busting a gut to get into the box.

Its time that this football club stopped playing with fear ..... because thats what we appear to be doing.

rcarter1
21-08-2013, 08:18 PM
We must be the easiest team in the league to defend against and that probably explains our lack of goals.

When you are defending against Hibs all you have to remember is that if you stick a couple of defenders on our striker ( or on the odd occasion strikers ) you have pretty well got us sown up, because you just know that even if we had Cairney on the right and Harris on the left when the ball comes into the box the chances are that our 4 / 5 midfield players will be 20 yards away bricking it just in case the opposition get the ball back and mount an attack.

You know that if the Hibs midfield has the ball that the guy on it is the man to watch, because you can rest assured that there will not be another midfielder running past him into space looking for a pass which will take him into the final 3rd. Because of that the opposition defence also know that they can concentrate their full attention on the striker / strikers because there will be little or no threat from the middle of the park as Hibs turgidly pass the ball from one side of the park to the other.

To compound all of this, we move the ball so slowly that our opponents usually have mountains of time to get themselves organized.

This isnt aimed only at Pat Fenlon ... Hibs havnt had a midfielder who could present the basic skill of making telling runs into the box since Pat McGinlay.

Watch any of the teams in the big leagues around Europe ... when the ball is being moved forward its done with pace and a wave of midfield players busting a gut to get into the box.

Its time that this football club stopped playing with fear ..... because thats what we appear to be doing.

Or watch the Malmo game..:duck:

NAE NOOKIE
21-08-2013, 08:32 PM
Or watch the Malmo game..:duck:

Exactly

Hibercelona
21-08-2013, 08:48 PM
I disagree that we played some good football last season. We played pretty much in the same manner as we are right now and were just highly fortunate to have somebody with Griffiths talents banging them in for us.

The team as a whole is very poor and has been for many seasons. This isn't just a bad run. This was always going to happen when Griffiths left.

We just don't play football.

Northernhibee
21-08-2013, 08:53 PM
I think we are asking the wrong question.

It should be 'What is wrong with our club', not team.

blackpoolhibs
21-08-2013, 09:00 PM
The season before last, lets not beat about the bush, we were pish bloody awful. We started last season bar the first game pretty well, more compact better balanced and played as a team. Not a great team, but a team that had some sort of idea how to play to their strengths.

Progress was made, no matter what anyone says we were better than the previous season. Halfway through that season things started to go wrong, a few injuries and a few players going off form.

We were then put through some terrible football, and some awful football with some awful results.

We had Leigh, and he was special, he could score a goal out of nothing and often did. Apart from him scoring or indeed creating goals, we were pretty poor. Now we don't have him, and we can see just how creative we are.

I have no confidence this team can score enough goals, or even create chances under this manager.

He's instilled a sense of fear around the club, its in the players and its also in the fans.

He has to go first and foremost, but those who appoint managers have made such an arse of things who is qualified to appoint the next one?

so to answer the question, the main problems are the management of the club, on the park and off it.

HibbyAndy
21-08-2013, 09:17 PM
The season before last, lets not beat about the bush, we were pish bloody awful. We started last season bar the first game pretty well, more compact better balanced and played as a team. Not a great team, but a team that had some sort of idea how to play to their strengths.

Progress was made, no matter what anyone says we were better than the previous season. Halfway through that season things started to go wrong, a few injuries and a few players going off form.

We were then put through some terrible football, and some awful football with some awful results.

We had Leigh, and he was special, he could score a goal out of nothing and often did. Apart from him scoring or indeed creating goals, we were pretty poor. Now we don't have him, and we can see just how creative we are.

I have no confidence this team can score enough goals, or even create chances under this manager.

He's instilled a sense of fear around the club, its in the players and its also in the fans.

He has to go first and foremost, but those who appoint managers have made such an arse of things who is qualified to appoint the next one?

so to answer the question, the main problems are the management of the club, on the park and off it.


Find myself agreeing with all of that.

Fenlon needs to go ..And he needs to go now....Id be willing to wager Hibs wont have scored 20 Goals by xmas..

Boring....Predictable and clueless are at least 3 words to describe Hibs.

Going to ER is a chore .. Certainly not for entertainment with this idiot in charge.

sahib
21-08-2013, 10:35 PM
Rowan Vine's beard is the problem. It just about sums up the respect most of the players have for passion, discipline and drive. Someone gets out of their bed in the morning and looks at that in the mirror and thinks it's respectable needs to go away and have a long hard re-think about their life. Do you think Sir Alex would put up with one of his players with a beard like that? Not in a million years. They'd be sent back home to get it off and come back when they feel worthy of at least feeling well presented when representing the club.

Pogonophobic twit!

sahib
21-08-2013, 10:42 PM
Boring....Predictable and clueless are at least 3 words to describe Hibs. .

This football lark is trickier than people think, otherwise, every club would be top of the league.

Coco Bryce
21-08-2013, 10:44 PM
The season before last, lets not beat about the bush, we were pish bloody awful. We started last season bar the first game pretty well, more compact better balanced and played as a team. Not a great team, but a team that had some sort of idea how to play to their strengths.

Progress was made, no matter what anyone says we were better than the previous season. Halfway through that season things started to go wrong, a few injuries and a few players going off form.

We were then put through some terrible football, and some awful football with some awful results.

We had Leigh, and he was special, he could score a goal out of nothing and often did. Apart from him scoring or indeed creating goals, we were pretty poor. Now we don't have him, and we can see just how creative we are.

I have no confidence this team can score enough goals, or even create chances under this manager.

He's instilled a sense of fear around the club, its in the players and its also in the fans.

He has to go first and foremost, but those who appoint managers have made such an arse of things who is qualified to appoint the next one?

so to answer the question, the main problems are the management of the club, on the park and off it.

Hard not to agree with any of this.

JimBHibees
22-08-2013, 10:37 AM
I disagree that we played some good football last season. We played pretty much in the same manner as we are right now and were just highly fortunate to have somebody with Griffiths talents banging them in for us.

The team as a whole is very poor and has been for many seasons. This isn't just a bad run. This was always going to happen when Griffiths left.

We just don't play football.

Thats nonsense some of the stuff early doors against United and Motherwell amongst others with Cairney/Doyle/Spoon and Sparky was very good IMO. It didnt last long that is for sure.

Expecting Rain
22-08-2013, 10:54 AM
Thats nonsense some of the stuff early doors against United and Motherwell amongst others with Cairney/Doyle/Spoon and Sparky was very good IMO. It didnt last long that is for sure.


Depends on the definition of good Jim, what most managers and teams accept as basics we accept as good. Players drift in and out of matches having very little affect on the game. Sparky and Ben Williams were the difference between better than the season before and mediocrity. At this moment in time and i know it is early i`m not encouraged by what i`ve seen.

allezsauzee
22-08-2013, 11:42 AM
A lack of continuity. Every couple of years we empty the manager because things haven't happened immediately or we've had a poor run and panicked. The new manager then empties the players that don't fit into his plans and then signs new ones. You have no chance of consistent success if you chop and change everything. This is why Manchester United win much more than the other teams who spend similar amounts if not more on players.

GreenArmy1875
22-08-2013, 12:22 PM
We have good technical football players at hibs and good players when on their day (Which aint alot). Problem is at our club we have too many nice guys, good pro's, technically good players at our club. I will say it until i am blue in the face we need someone that maybe aint the best technically but puts fear into the opposition. Also sure someone said this before "We have to many training ground players". Brilliant in pre season, Training, Youth games, Bounce games, when we are winning and best player on the park in these situations but put them out into a meaningful game and they freeze. Its pyscological in my opinion and something needs done.

Andy74
22-08-2013, 12:42 PM
We have good technical football players at hibs and good players when on their day (Which aint alot). Problem is at our club we have too many nice guys, good pro's, technically good players at our club. I will say it until i am blue in the face we need someone that maybe aint the best technically but puts fear into the opposition. Also sure someone said this before "We have to many training ground players". Brilliant in pre season, Training, Youth games, Bounce games, when we are winning and best player on the park in these situations but put them out into a meaningful game and they freeze. Its pyscological in my opinion and something needs done.

We had Deegan but didn't like him much because he wasn't creative.

Greenblood70
22-08-2013, 12:45 PM
Goalkeeper - Better than average - great shot stopper/reaction saves - prone to the odd calamity on cross balls - probably our best player at present.
Defence - Horrendous - injury prone - look like conceeding a goal every time the opposition crosses the halfway line. Revolving door policy at right back until Lewis is moved there at some point during a game to cover Fenlons latest tactical disaster.
Midfield - Pedestrian - play at a snails pace - do not track runs - give the ball away cheaply - too many of a similar type of player therefore no balance.
Strikers - Slow and cumbersome - rely on chances being created for them.

Manager - No discernable pattern of play, plays players out of position, has failed to address a lack of pace in the team since he arrived and has lost the confidence of the vast majorty of the support. Penchant for singing 276,473,231 holding midfielders during his time in charge.

Thats it in a nutshell for me and it makes depressing reading.

FENLON OUT NOW!

The Sea-gull
22-08-2013, 12:56 PM
We had Deegan but didn't like him much because he wasn't creative.

We didn't like him much coz he wasn't that good for us.

Appreciate he was decent at the start and suffered an unfortunate injury but overall he didn't cut it and that was why he wasn't rated by most.

blackpoolhibs
22-08-2013, 02:23 PM
We had Deegan but didn't like him much because he wasn't creative.

Yip you are right, he was not creative. He was also not good at passing the football, or indeed keeping the ball. He was a spoiler but not as good a spoiler as Taiwo and Claros, or as creative as either of them.

I could count on one hand his good games, and have a finger or two left. Hearts Celtic and Aberdeen, not a lot more.

Phil MaGlass
22-08-2013, 02:27 PM
The one, main overriding problem that permeates and affects all other areas of the club?

The near total lack of commitment and a winners mentality throughout the club, from top to bottom.

THIS 100%, and the fact the managers f,n useless, and Petries time at Hibs should come to a close.

Gustavo Fring
22-08-2013, 05:19 PM
the main problem can be summed up in 2 words

ROD PETRIE