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MADE IN LEITH
17-08-2013, 08:47 PM
I get paid a reasonable wage a year but if I stopped performing and not doing my job to a required standard I would be taken through the conduct code.

Stage 1 - I would be given a verbal warning and asked if everything was alright at home.

If I still wasn't doing my job to the required standard I would graduate to stage 2.....

Stage 2 - I would be given a written warning and asked if I was sure everything was alright at home.

If I still wasn't doing my job to the required standard I would graduate to stage 3.....

Stage 3. -I would be given a second and Final written warning and asked if I had any gambling or drinking problems.

If I still wasn't doing my job to the required standard I would graduate to stage 4.....

Stage 4 - I would be out the door, do not pass go, do not collect £200 just collect your P45 on the way oot as we cannot work out why you are not doing your job.


Question: Do you think Football Managers go through similar codes of conduct?

bronca
17-08-2013, 10:57 PM
Yup, Seems that now, football managers inhabit the same privileged atmosphere as most CEO's of banking,media,oil,transport and a few other industries I can think of: handsomely paid off regardless of results (someones comment on another thread on what CC likely ill-earned on getting the justified boot, if true, would leave many fans also sickened in regards to this)

To put Fenlons tenure in the scope of my own line of work is probably comparing apples and oranges...
but, as someone who has managed corporate restaurants and had to train whole teams in every department to deliver what the customers,and those above me should expect, I can say without any doubt, that i would be given a month,maybe two, tops-to get that team performing to the best of their ability in every department.If the food,service and surroundings were not at the least,what should be expected then...

My corporate superiors would be asking why?
My customers would not be happy with the product
If so, customers would complain to corporate superiors and cease to be future customers if no satisfactory amends were given
Takings and staff morale at my business would be down

I could not say that staff 'needed time to gel'
I could not offer that we were unlucky,because this or that didn't happen
I would not be allowed to get new staff in or ask to spend more than i was given
I'd have to make it happen or i would be out on my arse...

nae pay off and with a bad reputation amongst my industry and damn sure that I had worked 10x the hours for -10 pay that Fenlon probably has.

What the boards of football teams realise is that customers of restaurants dont have the same deep rooted passion,loyalty and history as they do for their team- why they seem comparitavely complacent about performance because they hedge on the fact that most fans will keep coming and paying regardless.

Which is why,imo, we now have a sad state of affairs at many football clubs where the fans get continually short changed and the failures supposedly doing their jobs prosper.

sickening.

Hibercelona
17-08-2013, 11:07 PM
It certainly is sickening. We live in a world where the least deserving have the most to gain.

My least favourite being dodgy bank managers.

joe breezy
17-08-2013, 11:53 PM
I doubt at work every single week you encounter people in the same industry who turn up every Saturday afternoon and make a concerted effort to make you look bad.

Imagine being a shelf packer in Tesco - all week you are there on time putting all the effort in, working hard. All your biscuits are nicely lined up.

Then on Saturday a team of guys from Asda come in and start pulling stuff off the shelves and smashing them on the floor.

Fenlon isn't neglecting his duties in the way you are taking about.

The situation you've given is abject failure to complete basic tasks.

That would mean not turning up for training, failure to speak to the players - it doesn't mean winning every game or even any games.

Eyrie
18-08-2013, 09:38 AM
I think people are missing the point of a football contract compared to a normal job.

With a normal job you're free to look elsewhere and if you find an alternative you can leave your current job at very short notice. A football manager or player on the other hand has a contract that binds them exclusively to their club for a particular period of time and they aren't able to just leave when they spot a better opportunity or more money. The quid pro quo is that the club can't simply get rid of an underperforming player or manager because they have agreed to that period of exclusivity, so they have to agree a figure with the player/manager for them to leave early.

You could get rid of someone sooner for gross misconduct, but that would involve far more than poor performances or tactical naivety.

joe breezy
18-08-2013, 09:46 AM
I think people are missing the point of a football contract compared to a normal job.

With a normal job you're free to look elsewhere and if you find an alternative you can leave your current job at very short notice. A football manager or player on the other hand has a contract that binds them exclusively to their club for a particular period of time and they aren't able to just leave when they spot a better opportunity or more money. The quid pro quo is that the club can't simply get rid of an underperforming player or manager because they have agreed to that period of exclusivity, so they have to agree a figure with the player/manager for them to leave early.

You could get rid of someone sooner for gross misconduct, but that would involve far more than poor performances or tactical naivety.

Exactly

jdships
18-08-2013, 10:10 AM
I think people are missing the point of a football contract compared to a normal job.

With a normal job you're free to look elsewhere and if you find an alternative you can leave your current job at very short notice. A football manager or player on the other hand has a contract that binds them exclusively to their club for a particular period of time and they aren't able to just leave when they spot a better opportunity or more money. The quid pro quo is that the club can't simply get rid of an underperforming player or manager because they have agreed to that period of exclusivity, so they have to agree a figure with the player/manager for them to leave early.

You could get rid of someone sooner for gross misconduct, but that would involve far more than poor performances or tactical naivety.

:agree:
Puts it in perspective - thank you !!

neil7908
18-08-2013, 10:15 AM
I think people are missing the point of a football contract compared to a normal job.With a normal job you're free to look elsewhere and if you find an alternative you can leave your current job at very short notice. A football manager or player on the other hand has a contract that binds them exclusively to their club for a particular period of time and they aren't able to just leave when they spot a better opportunity or more money. The quid pro quo is that the club can't simply get rid of an underperforming player or manager because they have agreed to that period of exclusivity, so they have to agree a figure with the player/manager for them to leave early.You could get rid of someone sooner for gross misconduct, but that would involve far more than poor performances or tactical naivety.

This is true. The big danger in football is that it DOES end up like any other job - a successful player or manager can hand in their 1 month notice and leave to go to another club at any point in the season. We already have far too much player power in football, can you imagine what would happen to a club like Hibs if our best players could just walk out on us with very little notice or no compensation due?


I'm as unhappy as anyone with Fenlon's performance as manager but in the end its all up to the board - they appointed him, they game him a contract of a certain length and a certain budget to work with and they can fire him at any point they like. As others have pointed out the idea of failure in football is different to other industries, the pressure is enormous and its a very public role.


I dont think you'll get many individual bankers with dozens of threads on websites devoted specifically to how much their customers hate them. Hibs just need to start picking better managers, I know its not easy but our current record is shocking really

MADE IN LEITH
18-08-2013, 10:35 AM
I think people are missing the point of a football contract compared to a normal job.

With a normal job you're free to look elsewhere and if you find an alternative you can leave your current job at very short notice. A football manager or player on the other hand has a contract that binds them exclusively to their club for a particular period of time and they aren't able to just leave when they spot a better opportunity or more money. The quid pro quo is that the club can't simply get rid of an underperforming player or manager because they have agreed to that period of exclusivity, so they have to agree a figure with the player/manager for them to leave early.

You could get rid of someone sooner for gross misconduct, but that would involve far more than poor performances or tactical naivety.

I think people are missing a the point, a contract is a contract though there are different terms and conditions but all are legally and binding and have standard conditions and conditions agreed by each party. But in general standard working contracts in business are on the whole adhere to employee law and standard term contracts.

I agree that you can leave a bog standard job and give reasonable notice, however even if a manager is contracted for "X" amount of time I beg to differ that he cannot leave if he spots a better opportunity. A myriad of managers have done this AND as you rightly said they would have to agree a monetary sum for them to leave, though this can be a long drawn out process.

What constitutes "gross misconduct" in the workplace and 9 times out of 10 why do Football managers get the sack?
Let's look at this one, well if your sitting at the bottom of the league due to poor results and poor performances due to tactical naivety both on and off the park (Poor signings, poor man to man management skills, poor leadership, poor scouting network, poor team selction and poor tactical awareness). Then I think this answers the question of poor performance and tactical naivety being "Gross Misconduct" as all the things in brackets and more encapsulate it in a results driven job such as a football manager. Poor Performance or Tactical Nativity should not be taken out of context, misinterpreted or looked at in isolation of the football pitch, though this were all the hard work should pay off. Hence, I am certain that Performance (which encapsulates naivety in any form) is the number 1 factor why many managers are relieved of their duties. And yes, there are exceptions to the rule, board room bust ups, cultural differences, different philosophies and management styles the list is endless.

Phil D. Rolls
18-08-2013, 10:50 AM
FFS :brickwall The last three managers of Hibs have been sacked, what more do people want - blood? Code of Conduct, what utter officious and petty nonsense!

If you are not happy with the quality of M&S food, do you demand that the manager is sacked? No, you go somewhere else instead. If you can't go somewhere else, that's your problem.

MADE IN LEITH
18-08-2013, 11:50 AM
FFS :brickwall The last three managers of Hibs have been sacked, what more do people want - blood? Code of Conduct, what utter officious and petty nonsense!

If you are not happy with the quality of M&S food, do you demand that the manager is sacked? No, you go somewhere else instead. If you can't go somewhere else, that's your problem.

Officious but do they exist in the football management world?

Hibs do a good food range, cabbage and ribs :greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
18-08-2013, 11:56 AM
Officious but do they exist in the football management world?

Hibs do a good food range, cabbage and ribs :greengrin

:greengrin:aok:

Lester B
18-08-2013, 02:06 PM
I think people are missing a the point, a contract is a contract though there are different terms and conditions but all are legally and binding and have standard conditions and conditions agreed by each party. But in general standard working contracts in business are on the whole adhere to employee law and standard term contracts.

I agree that you can leave a bog standard job and give reasonable notice, however even if a manager is contracted for "X" amount of time I beg to differ that he cannot leave if he spots a better opportunity. A myriad of managers have done this AND as you rightly said they would have to agree a monetary sum for them to leave, though this can be a long drawn out process.

What constitutes "gross misconduct" in the workplace and 9 times out of 10 why do Football managers get the sack?
Let's look at this one, well if your sitting at the bottom of the league due to poor results and poor performances due to tactical naivety both on and off the park (Poor signings, poor man to man management skills, poor leadership, poor scouting network, poor team selction and poor tactical awareness). Then I think this answers the question of poor performance and tactical naivety being "Gross Misconduct" as all the things in brackets and more encapsulate it in a results driven job such as a football manager. Poor Performance or Tactical Nativity should not be taken out of context, misinterpreted or looked at in isolation of the football pitch, though this were all the hard work should pay off. Hence, I am certain that Performance (which encapsulates naivety in any form) is the number 1 factor why many managers are relieved of their duties. And yes, there are exceptions to the rule, board room bust ups, cultural differences, different philosophies and management styles the list is endless.

Not really sure where to begin on this but will have a go.

There are three potentially fair reasons for termination of a standard employment contract where the employee has two or more years service: Conduct, capability and redundancy. We can discount the last in any discussion of this as redundancy simply means the job, or rather the work itself, is no longer there and suitable alternative employment is not available.

Misconduct in simple terms is bad behaviour: excessive use of internet, insulting colleagues, I'm sure we can all think of examples. Gross misconduct, which means summary (instant) dismissal is extremely bad behaviour: theft, assaulting a colleague, effectively behaviour where the employee has by their actions effectively brought the employment contract to an end as the trust and mutual confidence implied in the employment contract has been broken.

What the OP describes in terms of process is not a conduct situation but a capability one. Capability is, again in simple terms, the lack of ability to undertake the job. This can be as simple as someone employed as a driver who loses their licence. But it can be much more complicated than that and in my experience disciplinary action up to and including dismissal is harder to prove due to the element of subjectivity and therefore jobs where there are targets to be met in terms of things like sales, material output, etc are easier in terms of measuring the employee's capability or lack thereof.
The situation in this case is one of capability.

The problem is that all of the above applies to standard employment situations. Although football managers contracts are fixed term which usually involves less employment protection than permanent employment, the number of clauses inserted as regards termination of the contract including the right to terminate to take another role and the compensation required in the case of early termination by the employer mean that the employee is in a much stronger situation than most employees in most jobs. The contract is agreed by both parties and is therefore binding.

Thank you for reading the dullest post ever on this forum.

Btw I think Fenlon still has to get his jotters one way or another. Yesterday was dire!!

Lester B
18-08-2013, 02:24 PM
Oh and....

1) yes I do this sort of stuff for a living
2) At last I can make a post here when I definitely know what I am talking about
3) I do employment advice if anyone needs it my fellow Hibbies. My fee is a cup of coffee. Unless it's a full Employment Tribunal claim: that's four pints of IPA and a steak pie supper

MADE IN LEITH
18-08-2013, 05:12 PM
Not really sure where to begin on this but will have a go.

There are three potentially fair reasons for termination of a standard employment contract where the employee has two or more years service: Conduct, capability and redundancy. We can discount the last in any discussion of this as redundancy simply means the job, or rather the work itself, is no longer there and suitable alternative employment is not available.

Misconduct in simple terms is bad behaviour: excessive use of internet, insulting colleagues, I'm sure we can all think of examples. Gross misconduct, which means summary (instant) dismissal is extremely bad behaviour: theft, assaulting a colleague, effectively behaviour where the employee has by their actions effectively brought the employment contract to an end as the trust and mutual confidence implied in the employment contract has been broken.

What the OP describes in terms of process is not a conduct situation but a capability one. Capability is, again in simple terms, the lack of ability to undertake the job. This can be as simple as someone employed as a driver who loses their licence. But it can be much more complicated than that and in my experience disciplinary action up to and including dismissal is harder to prove due to the element of subjectivity and therefore jobs where there are targets to be met in terms of things like sales, material output, etc are easier in terms of measuring the employee's capability or lack thereof.
The situation in this case is one of capability.

The problem is that all of the above applies to standard employment situations. Although football managers contracts are fixed term which usually involves less employment protection than permanent employment, the number of clauses inserted as regards termination of the contract including the right to terminate to take another role and the compensation required in the case of early termination by the employer mean that the employee is in a much stronger situation than most employees in most jobs. The contract is agreed by both parties and is therefore binding.

Thank you for reading the dullest post ever on this forum.

Btw I think Fenlon still has to get his jotters one way or another. Yesterday was dire!!

Yeh, your right it was dull at university and its dull reading it now but that's employment/contract law for you. :greengrin

Bottom line is the term "gross misconduct" and the question of conduct code was used loosely and getting into the in's and outs of employment/contract law is an arduous task which for the sake of not wanting to bore people to sleep, I think its better we watch the latest episode of Coronation Street.