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Unseen work
12-08-2013, 12:07 AM
Without sounding like a happy clapper I think we have been quite unlucky. People wanting shiels in for Fenlon, a manager who finished 9th 6 points behind us is not the answer. I know people will be saying 6 points is nothing but if we had a extra 6 we would of finished 3rd. The spl was very tight last year and we were very unfortunate not to get in the top 6 and the games after the split we were looking good.

new season starts and we bring in players who were key in teams that finished above us such as Craig, vine and Tudor jones. Along with them we bring in a promising right back and a striker who got 18 goals last season. Added on to that Thomson and Robertson have a full pre season and are putting in good performances. We also signed a experienced no nonsense centre half.

im not saying the start of this season has been good, not by a long shot as we expect better. But in the 2 games this season we haven't been worse than Motherwell and hearts they have just gotten the lucky break IMO. All of our creative players are out injured so he is putting out a team to make us harder to beat and in fairness we do look more solid. People saying we're not attacking enough need to remember we got hammered 7-0 at home, a result like that takes time to get out of the players and coaching staffs system so by making us harder to get beat and not concede as much will slowly make them more confident and eventually play their normal game which a lot of them are not doing right now as they seem terrified and under immense pressure.

we have our captain mcpake, first choice right back Clancy, 2 main attacking threats and flair players carney and Harris who on their day can rip any defender to shreds all out injured. Our first choice left back is just recovering from a injury aswell. Pat looking at his team pre season with everyone fully fit would of been confident, he couldn't of guessed our 2 wingers would get injured by the first game so right now he can only play the players available unitill he can recruit someone new, it takes time to find the right player for the right price etc.

If we started the season with a fully fit team and not on the back of a 7-0 gubbing the players would of been confident and a line up of either


williams Williams

clancy. Mcpake Nelson. Mcgivern. Clancy. Mcpake. Nelson. Mcgivern

harris. Thomson. Craig. Cairney. Thomson. Craig

Vine. Collins. Harris. Cairney. Vine

Collins

Would IMO have people excited, everyone on top of their game would be very hard to beat for every spl team. This is still leaving a bench to make up of either

robertson
taiwo
stevenson
hanlon
forster
handling
caldwell
stanton
Mullen
Tudor jones

that to me is a very strong team with a lot of quality players and options. Unfortunately we have possibly our most influential players missing in cairney and Harris, even when they were fit we were looking for another winger so the fact this has happened so soon is just unlucky.

also losing 7-0 to a team, I don't care what anyone says is the players fault, Fenlon picked a team most of us would of picked and at the end of the day they never turned up, he has no control over them once the game starts and nothing he would of told them to do would of made them lose 7-0, that result IMO is solely based on the players. You can say he never motivated them or whatever which I imagine he would of! But even if he never.... If you can't motivate and get buzzing for a European game at home with 16000 fans supporting you, then your a lost cause and shouldn't play.


anyway just a wee bit of perspective after a hard couple of weeks and day! We will get better....... I hope:greengrin

Unseen work
12-08-2013, 12:11 AM
Apologies the team formation never went to plan was meant to read

williams

Clancy mcpake nelson mcgivern

harris Thomson Craig cairney

Vine collins

or

williams

clancy mcpake nelson mcgivern

Thomson. Craig

harris. Cairney. ViNe

Collins

Speedway
12-08-2013, 12:11 AM
A team that cannot play three passes together more than 5 times in 90 minutes, cannot get the ball to their strikers, cannot get out of each others way and cannot pass through midfield because they would rather punt is NOT UNLUCKY!!

It is just feebly poor.

Hibercelona
12-08-2013, 12:14 AM
Were we just "unlucky" 9 times against Malmo? :dunno:

Unseen work
12-08-2013, 12:15 AM
A team that cannot play three passes together more than 5 times in 90 minutes, cannot get the ball to their strikers, cannot get out of each others way and cannot pass through midfield because they would rather punt is NOT UNLUCKY!!

It is just feebly poor.

Thats what I'm saying the lead up to this has made them have 0 confidence and not want the ball, the only one who always wants it is Thomson. A couple of games should see the confidence and flair come back

Unseen work
12-08-2013, 12:17 AM
Were we just "unlucky" 9 times against Malmo? :dunno:

I did touch on that, that's the players fault. The manager can set up his team however he likes but if they don't do the business on the park it's hopeless. No one can say how we set up is the reason we lost 7!

Callum_62
12-08-2013, 12:20 AM
Forget about Malmo

Yes we havent been that much worse than Well or Hearts (they should be the worst team in the league btw).

BUT...we, yes focus on our team have been pathetic

Even if we drew 0-0 both games...thats not the football we should be playing. hoof and hope. We actually have ball players, who we contunually miss out

We look devoid of ideas, extremely pedestrian and slow.

Shiels may have finished 6 points behind us....but on what fraction of our Budget? I seem to remember Killie played some decent stuff too.

Sheils does waffle a bit, but most of it was defending his club...fighting there corner - I'll have some of that please.

Ive defended Pat....but really yesterday was so similar to Well, which is not good enough. I fully expected a reaction, for us to take the game by the scruff of the neck and dominate

We didnt. The players looked scared....they must take some blame, but I think they have given up on Fenlon

Pat should have came out and lambested that performance, because its plan for everyone to see its not good enough. Instead we get the unlucky line. We probably didnt deserves to lose, but we did not deserve to win. And against a largely u20's side, thats simply not good enough.

Hibercelona
12-08-2013, 12:21 AM
Thats what I'm saying the lead up to this has made them have 0 confidence and not want the ball, the only one who always wants it is Thomson. A couple of games should see the confidence and flair come back

Whats going to happen over the next 2 games to see us playing with "confidence" and "flair"?

2 things we haven't had for 6 years.

Speedway
12-08-2013, 12:22 AM
Thats what I'm saying the lead up to this has made them have 0 confidence and not want the ball, the only one who always wants it is Thomson. A couple of games should see the confidence and flair come back

How does punting the ball back to the opposition give us confidence and how can flair come back when there isn't any to begin with?

Pete
12-08-2013, 12:28 AM
Whats going to happen over the next 2 games to see us playing with "confidence" and "flair"?

2 things we haven't had for 6 years.

Maybe go a goal or two up in a match?

Flair I'll give you as that's up to the observer to judge but confidence?

People, and I'm talking about those who attend, have short memories.

Purehibee_MYB
12-08-2013, 12:37 AM
I do appreciate the points you make and I do believe that confidence being low is playing a part. But 4-5-1 at home against motherwell despite 7-0 at home and then a similar if not marginally more attacking 4-5-1 against a weak Hearts team is just not good enough. I would be more accepting of the 'bad luck' line if we were playing football, but we are not being set up to win games at the moment, and with players on paper that should be in the top 4 despite our current injuries-whether or not they aren't performing 100%-the blame has to fall on the manager.

Hibercelona
12-08-2013, 12:37 AM
Maybe go a goal or two up in a match?

Flair I'll give you as that's up to the observer to judge but confidence?

People, and I'm talking about those who attend, have short memories.

Aye, because we look like scoring a goal anytime soon right enough.

You're right about the short memories. If you can remember as far back as last season, we had 1 exceptional player that saved us from a relegation scrap. He's gone now.

I think you'll be in an extremely small minority if you think last season was full of "flair". It wasn't.

Pete
12-08-2013, 12:50 AM
Aye, because we look like scoring a goal anytime soon right enough.

You're right about the short memories. If you can remember as far back as last season, we had 1 exceptional player that saved us from a relegation scrap. He's gone now.

I think you'll be in an extremely small minority if you think last season was full of "flair". It wasn't.

I think you're being harsh with your first two paragraphs and overly critical. It's all about opinions mate and you're entitled to yours.

With the last one you're showing that you aren't truly digesting what you're quoting and perhaps letting anger with the club get in the way.:aok:

Hibercelona
12-08-2013, 12:57 AM
I think you're being harsh with your first two paragraphs and overly critical. It's all about opinions mate and you're entitled to yours.

With the last one you're showing that you aren't truly digesting what you're quoting and perhaps letting anger with the club get in the way.:aok:

I don't think i'm being too critical at all. I think as a club, we're not nearly critical enough. We put up with far more ***** than any other club. Why is this?

You're right about one thing though. I am angry.

No, i'm furious.

BVB Hibs
12-08-2013, 11:42 AM
Aye, because we look like scoring a goal anytime soon right enough.

You're right about the short memories. If you can remember as far back as last season, we had 1 exceptional player that saved us from a relegation scrap. He's gone now.

I think you'll be in an extremely small minority if you think last season was full of "flair". It wasn't.

Agreed, last season the squad was awful, but we had LG to pull us through it. The goals he scored that came out of absolutely nowhere were the only reason we had a sniff of the top 6 last year. Last year we had probably the most dull side in the league and those talking about negative football this year should look at how we were set up last year, when it really was route one and we were disgraceful in defence.

I'm actually not too worried about flair in the side. I actually thought there wasn't too far too go from yesterday til we actually have some decent attacking football, composure was poor and we could do with some pace somewhere. There's still too much long ball football being played, but compared to last year we look like Barcelona. Our best attacks came from legitimately good play, and while I'd like to see more of it it's certainly a start.

This talk of regression is a joke. We've finally looked solid at the back. We conceded one off a lucky ball over the top and we've conceded one off a brilliant cross into the box. That's not poor defence, is just downright bad luck, we could easily have started with 2 clean sheets. Yesterday's team also had more attacking intent than the side had in the entirety of last year. We don't have a LG to pull us out this year, but I do have faith that goals can come from more than one player this year. What we need now though is the players to work had for each other and for the club. Maybe Fenlon isn't the manager to get the best out of the players, but as far as I'm concerned the two losses have not been down to tactical deficiencies, rather players regressing into a "same old same old" mentality on the park. Yesterday was the first time I've seen Fenlon look genuinely annoyed on the sideline, and in the second half it seemed to be when we played a ridiculous long ball over the top. Maybe he isn't the problem eh? There's too much blame attached to the manager within British football, and that's why we'll never have the stability we see from many of the European sides.

Treadstone
12-08-2013, 11:50 AM
This talk of regression is a joke. We've finally looked solid at the back. We conceded one off a lucky ball over the top and we've conceded one off a brilliant cross into the box. That's not poor defence, is just downright bad luck, we could easily have started with 2 clean sheets.

Have ye ever heard of Malmo ?

Thecat23
12-08-2013, 11:52 AM
I can't believe some are STILL defending him. You can't be Hibs fans surely, or watch that week in week out? A fully fit Hibs team CAN'T pass the ball, a fully fit Hibs team CAN'T score goals.

Please, just please stop it with the "we might just get a wee break or a goal stuff". He's out his depth for Christ sakes. The football under him since he's came in has been so bad it's eye bleeding its not going to change he's had 2 years. Teams needs to gel aye? Like Caley and Dons teams do? Some folk just can't bring themselves to say he's ***** and they are wrong.

Sorry if that's harsh but it's like when someone is trapped in a daze and needs a good slap across the face to wake them out of it.

WhileTheChief..
12-08-2013, 11:52 AM
I don't think i'm being too critical at all. I think as a club, we're not nearly critical enough. We put up with far more ***** than any other club. Why is this?

You're right about one thing though. I am angry.

No, i'm furious.

Spot on.

As a group if fans we accept crap far too easily and come up with loads of excuses for it.

Finally most fans seem to be united on the removal of PF although it took some longer than others!

Makaveli
12-08-2013, 11:56 AM
Funny how everyone is lucky when they play Hibs.

BVB Hibs
12-08-2013, 11:57 AM
Have ye ever heard of Malmo ?

Using Malmo as a judgement of anything is ridiculous. That was a horrendous game all round, simple as that. Every single player played awfully, and thus you can't use that as an accurate judgement of performance. Sure, Arsenal lost 8-2 to United a few years ago, does that mean they've an awful defence and an inept manager? Of course not, it means they put in an awful performance.

As far as I'm concerned that game is a write off, and any judgement of the side and Fenlon has to be made off the league campaign. Having one terrible result cloud your vision doesn't mean you can really put in an impartial opinion.

Pretty Boy
12-08-2013, 11:58 AM
I can't believe some are STILL defending him. You can't be Hibs fans surely, or watch that week in week out? A fully fit Hibs team CAN'T pass the ball, a fully fit Hibs team CAN'T score goals.

Please, just please stop it with the "we might just get a wee break or a goal stuff". He's out his depth for Christ sakes. The football under him since he's came in has been so bad it's eye bleeding its not going to change he's had 2 years. Teams needs to gel aye? Like Caley and Dons teams do? Some folk just can't bring themselves to say he's ***** and they are wrong.

Sorry if that's harsh but it's like when someone is trapped in a daze and needs a good slap across the face to wake them out of it.

Spot on.

Treadstone
12-08-2013, 12:09 PM
Using Malmo as a judgement of anything is ridiculous. That was a horrendous game all round, simple as that. Every single player played awfully, and thus you can't use that as an accurate judgement of performance. Sure, Arsenal lost 8-2 to United a few years ago, does that mean they've an awful defence and an inept manager? Of course not, it means they put in an awful performance.

As far as I'm concerned that game is a write off, and any judgement of the side and Fenlon has to be made off the league campaign. Having one terrible result cloud your vision doesn't mean you can really put in an impartial opinion.

Get off your high horse. You chose to ignore the Malmo game(s) to emphasise your 'bad luck' theory. Have you considered the SPFL games this season are the exception rather than the rule. A much changed Motherwell side and a glorified U20 team. Its not 'bad luck' when you lose a goal with a header from midfield over the top beats your whole defence as happened against 'well. Was it 'good luck' when Williams saved 10 minutes earlier in that game when again one ball beat the whole defence for an identical chance.
Those foreign teams never sack their managers.:faf:

DH1875
12-08-2013, 12:10 PM
Some folk need to get a grip. It's not just the start of this season. We were dire last season and if it weren't for Leigh we'd have been in serious do-do. I have no problem losing games but the way we go about it is ridiculous and is totally unwatchable at times. What's the point of setting up the team not to get beat every week if we keep getting beat every week? It's Fenlon who sets the formation and tactics (lets just hoof it up the park) so it's Fenlon who carry's the can. That squad should be good enough to compete in this league and we just need a manager who'll let them off the leash and go play. NOT someone who sets them up to NOT get beat against an U20s team of fuds.

tamsonsbairn
12-08-2013, 12:12 PM
Although I don't believe in such a thing as bad or good luck I think our club hasn't been the same since we sacked Franck Sauze. I reckon there is a curse on our club since then. Whatever happened at that time has left a big scar on Francks heart, for a man who professed his love for our club to have nothing to do with us since then says it all. There is,as said so many times by other people something deeply wrong within our club, all the management changes etc can't all be bad appointments. I think we almost found the root of the problem when John Collins was manager with the players revolt and not backing him financially, I think there was more to it than just these two, what, I cannot put my finger on but the sooner we can resolve this the better. I am not one of the ones to call for the managers head, I will leave that decision to the board, I will stand behind my team no matter what, like many people I have been a season ticket holder for god knows how long and before that a pay at the gate customer. Does anybody have a theory on why we are so bad, be interested to hear any. :pfgwa

Thecat23
12-08-2013, 12:13 PM
Using Malmo as a judgement of anything is ridiculous. That was a horrendous game all round, simple as that. Every single player played awfully, and thus you can't use that as an accurate judgement of performance. Sure, Arsenal lost 8-2 to United a few years ago, does that mean they've an awful defence and an inept manager? Of course not, it means they put in an awful performance.

As far as I'm concerned that game is a write off, and any judgement of the side and Fenlon has to be made off the league campaign. Having one terrible result cloud your vision doesn't mean you can really put in an impartial opinion.

OH....MY.... GOD!!

Arsenal didnt go into that game playing eye bleeding football or suffering from horrific cup final results did they? To even compare the two teams ends this discussion for me.

Dunderhall
12-08-2013, 12:13 PM
Apologies the team formation never went to plan was meant to read

williams

Clancy mcpake nelson mcgivern

harris Thomson Craig cairney

Vine collins

or

williams

clancy mcpake nelson mcgivern

Thomson. Craig

harris. Cairney. ViNe

Collins

That's where your point falls down to me.
Most would agree we have a decent SPFL squad, lack of depth in a couple of areas.

We should be putting a team on the park that can compete with the better teams.
We aren't competing, we don't seem to have a game plan, players consistently out of position, balance all wrong.
Play 4 5 1 and just miss out the midfield completely, is that it.

There is being unlucky and digging a hole for yourself. Time to stop digging IMO.

neil7908
12-08-2013, 12:36 PM
I'd agree we were unlucky to lose to both Hearts and Motherwell. The issue however is that we didn't create a single chance over the whole 180 minutes.

Its all good and well talking about 'luck' in but in no way we did we look even close to winning either game. The best we could have got out the last 2 games was 0-0 draws, combined with eye bleeding football and a team that cant pass a ball.

I think another poster said it but it your team cant pass a ball or create any chances you wont win football matches, simple as that, nothing to do with luck.

The Malmo and 1-5 cup final were unforgivable results but I think what has really got to most fans the last 2 games is not just that we've lost, its the way we've lost.

No attacking threat, a team that cant seem to pace a ball, no pace, no width, no creativity, no entertainment.

That combined with the Malmo and Hearts results is simply unacceptable.

neil7908
12-08-2013, 12:39 PM
Funny how everyone is lucky when they play Hibs.

This x100.

HUTCHYHIBBY
12-08-2013, 12:42 PM
5 competitive games in a row without a goal isnae unlucky, its pish!

Golden Bear
12-08-2013, 12:43 PM
Funny how everyone is lucky when they play Hibs.

:agree:

And it's equally strange that we're the only team that apparently suffer from bad luck, injuries and suspensions.

Hibercelona
12-08-2013, 12:49 PM
I can't believe some are STILL defending him. You can't be Hibs fans surely, or watch that week in week out? A fully fit Hibs team CAN'T pass the ball, a fully fit Hibs team CAN'T score goals.

Please, just please stop it with the "we might just get a wee break or a goal stuff". He's out his depth for Christ sakes. The football under him since he's came in has been so bad it's eye bleeding its not going to change he's had 2 years. Teams needs to gel aye? Like Caley and Dons teams do? Some folk just can't bring themselves to say he's ***** and they are wrong.

Sorry if that's harsh but it's like when someone is trapped in a daze and needs a good slap across the face to wake them out of it.

Great post.

All this "bad luck", "gelling in", "hoping for the best" nonsense really gets on my goat. It's the talk of losers.

Pat 0-7
12-08-2013, 12:52 PM
I'd agree we were unlucky to lose to both Hearts and Motherwell. The issue however is that we didn't create a single chance over the whole 180 minutes.

Its all good and well talking about 'luck' in but in no way we did we look even close to winning either game. The best we could have got out the last 2 games was 0-0 draws, combined with eye bleeding football and a team that cant pass a ball.

I think another poster said it but it your team cant pass a ball or create any chances you wont win football matches, simple as that, nothing to do with luck.

The Malmo and 1-5 cup final were unforgivable results but I think what has really got to most fans the last 2 games is not just that we've lost, its the way we've lost.

No attacking threat, a team that cant seem to pace a ball, no pace, no width, no creativity, no entertainment.

That combined with the Malmo and Hearts results is simply unacceptable.

This. Nothing to do with bad luck.

We have players that have proven at other clubs that they are half-decent.

But on the park they have no confidence, no leadership, and, it appears, no real idea of how the team is supposed to be playing.

We need someone to be able to get the best out of them tactically and motivation-wise.

IMO, PF has proven that he can't do that.

Time for a change.

blackpoolhibs
12-08-2013, 12:52 PM
A team that looks like it could go a whole season without scoring is indeed unlucky, unlucky for the poor sods that have to endure that. :rolleyes:

Brightside
12-08-2013, 12:52 PM
I dont want shiels. Butcher & Colins for me please.

Keith_M
12-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Listen, Pat, stop saying it's luck and just go.

calumb
12-08-2013, 01:08 PM
I'd agree we were unlucky to lose to both Hearts and Motherwell. The issue however is that we didn't create a single chance over the whole 180 minutes.

Its all good and well talking about 'luck' in but in no way we did we look even close to winning either game. The best we could have got out the last 2 games was 0-0 draws, combined with eye bleeding football and a team that cant pass a ball.

I think another poster said it but it your team cant pass a ball or create any chances you wont win football matches, simple as that, nothing to do with luck.

The Malmo and 1-5 cup final were unforgivable results but I think what has really got to most fans the last 2 games is not just that we've lost, its the way we've lost.

No attacking threat, a team that cant seem to pace a ball, no pace, no width, no creativity, no entertainment.

That combined with the Malmo and Hearts results is simply unacceptable.

Yip none of this is bad luck its down purely to bad planning.

When it was obvious Leigh was not coming back it left us with only an 18 year old in Harris to give us any pace or width thats bad planning.

Our fullbacks have been weak links for years , including McGivern last season , clancy seems to be permanently injured but other that sign a yam youth player and an old guy in Maybury nothing has been done bad planning again.

The centre of defence is chronic and it was obvious that mcpake is struggling but nothing is done except sign Nelson who was probably a Jimmy Nichol recomendation, so if that was the case you have to wonder what our manager was planning to do.

Writing out squads on paper that maybe look ok is one thing and maybe Fenlons tatics are wrong but it does not escape the fact that we are probably the most one paced teams in the league as we were for most of last season except for leigh bombing about and chasing lost causes and nothing has been done to change this.

What is bad luck is that most of our player budget has probably now been used up on all the plodders getting in each others way in the centre midfield area

francobaresi
12-08-2013, 02:19 PM
A little sports story about being lucky....


I (Gary Player) was practicing in a bunker down in Texas and this good old boy with a big hat stopped to watch. The first shot he saw me hit went in the hole. He said, “You got 50 bucks if you knock the next one in.” I holed the next one. Then he says, “You got $100 if you hole the next one.” In it went for three in a row. As he peeled off the bills he said, “Boy, I’ve never seen anyone so lucky in my life.” And I shot back, “Well, the harder I practice, the luckier I get.” That’s where the quote originated.


Moral of the story, well you tell me......

BVB Hibs
12-08-2013, 02:51 PM
Get off your high horse. You chose to ignore the Malmo game(s) to emphasise your 'bad luck' theory. Have you considered the SPFL games this season are the exception rather than the rule. A much changed Motherwell side and a glorified U20 team. Its not 'bad luck' when you lose a goal with a header from midfield over the top beats your whole defence as happened against 'well. Was it 'good luck' when Williams saved 10 minutes earlier in that game when again one ball beat the whole defence for an identical chance.
Those foreign teams never sack their managers.:faf:

If the SPFL games are the exception rather than the rule, I'd like you to show me 3 games, other than the 2012 cup final and the Malmo game where we've shipped more than 4. An exception to the rule would imply that we get pumped week in week out, which simply isn't the case, nor has it been at any stage recently. 2 pumpings doesn't make it a rule.

I'll point you to Bayern Munich. The reason Bayern Munich are so successful is due to the consistency they have in their leadership team. This extends beyond the manager, they have people in like Sammer who've been strong and now been there for a few years. Others like Beckenbauer and Rummenigge in leadership positions that have been there even longer, who have a genuine identity to the club providing the basis for a strong team. My first team, Dortmund have also reaped the benefits of having a long standing leadership team in charge, after years of sacking managers and no success.

Ancelotti was most successful in his longest stint (AC Milan). Alex Ferguson won countless titles over a long stint. Wenger similarly has been successful over a long period of time. All the most successful teams out there have had long standing managers, with the few exceptions either being the worlds top managers (Hiddink, Mourinho) which we're never going to be in the market for or having more money than everybody else (mostly Chelsea and Madrid).

If we want to put in the performances on the pitch, things need to improve off the pitch, and that simply cannot happen when you keep chopping and changing managers and systems ever 2 years. Look at Barcelona, they've not set up a club behind the scenes that is now pretty much self serving. A manager has to buy into the club to have success and every team from the under 10's up plays the same style so that there is a seamless transition into the first team. That's continuity like almost no other club has it, and look what it's done for them, the most successful club in the later 00's. So, the two most successful clubs of this century so far have been AC Milan and Barcelona, both sides that weren't chopping and changing every 18 months. Figures.

Pat Fenlon has not brought the results on the pitch, but he's brought them off the pitch. He's slowly but surely investing in a squad that have some pride in playing for the badge, rather than a rambled together group of journeymen. The overall quality of the side (LG excluded) has improved immeasurably since this time last year. What we need to realise is last year was a fluke, we are never in the market for a player of LG's quality, he's simply too good for us, so we need to measure improvement on the quality of the rest of the squad. Fenlon is also putting some emphasis on youth, which is exactly what a club like hibs should be doing. Experience is often overrated, and you're never going uncover gems like Harris is you're not playing them. All in all, I'm pretty happy with that job.

So the other option is, we change manager now, we carry on with the same ramble off the scenes and have some short term success. In 2 years it's just all going to unravel again, and there'll be the same witch hunt as we're seeing with Fenlon. I'd almost argue Fenlon has been too weak. Screw success for the next 2/3 years, be resigned to finishing 9th. Overhaul the club completely and put ourselves into a position where we can challenge the top on a continual basis after that. Rangers are out another 2 years, there's an extra club who we're going to take points off just out of pure fluke, so we're not really in a position where we're going to be going down, if there's any time to do it, it's now. But sack now and bring in somebody just for some short term success, maybe top 6 if we're really lucky, will just see us going through the same cycle of mediocrity year after year after year, I don't see the benefit.


OH....MY.... GOD!!

Arsenal didnt go into that game playing eye bleeding football or suffering from horrific cup final results did they? To even compare the two teams ends this discussion for me.

Yet it was a one off, it didn't wasn't an accurate representation of the quality of Arsenals squad. In the same vain, the Malmo result wasn't an accurate representation of our squad. It was a fluke, a one off, the players gave up. The quality of the football does not matter, nor do the tactics, simply that a bad performance isn't a way to measure a squad.

I find it funny using a cup final losses as a negative too. Sure, nobody wanted to lose 5-1 to hearts. Nobody wants to go to a cup final to lose to celtic without really challenging for the title. But jesus, by making the final you were the second best side in the competition. Making a final is a sign of quality or would you rather we went out with a 1-0 wimper in the first round every year, so we can't be subjected to the embarrassment of a cup final defeat? Cop on, really?

steakbake
12-08-2013, 02:54 PM
Said it somewhere else, but as soon as managers start talking about Lady Luck's absence, you get the impression they're done for.

Golden Bear
12-08-2013, 03:09 PM
If the SPFL games are the exception rather than the rule, I'd like you to show me 3 games, other than the 2012 cup final and the Malmo game where we've shipped more than 4. An exception to the rule would imply that we get pumped week in week out, which simply isn't the case, nor has it been at any stage recently. 2 pumpings doesn't make it a rule.

I'll point you to Bayern Munich. The reason Bayern Munich are so successful is due to the consistency they have in their leadership team. This extends beyond the manager, they have people in like Sammer who've been strong and now been there for a few years. Others like Beckenbauer and Rummenigge in leadership positions that have been there even longer, who have a genuine identity to the club providing the basis for a strong team. My first team, Dortmund have also reaped the benefits of having a long standing leadership team in charge, after years of sacking managers and no success.

Ancelotti was most successful in his longest stint (AC Milan). Alex Ferguson won countless titles over a long stint. Wenger similarly has been successful over a long period of time. All the most successful teams out there have had long standing managers, with the few exceptions either being the worlds top managers (Hiddink, Mourinho) which we're never going to be in the market for or having more money than everybody else (mostly Chelsea and Madrid).

If we want to put in the performances on the pitch, things need to improve off the pitch, and that simply cannot happen when you keep chopping and changing managers and systems ever 2 years. Look at Barcelona, they've not set up a club behind the scenes that is now pretty much self serving. A manager has to buy into the club to have success and every team from the under 10's up plays the same style so that there is a seamless transition into the first team. That's continuity like almost no other club has it, and look what it's done for them, the most successful club in the later 00's. So, the two most successful clubs of this century so far have been AC Milan and Barcelona, both sides that weren't chopping and changing every 18 months. Figures.

Pat Fenlon has not brought the results on the pitch, but he's brought them off the pitch. He's slowly but surely investing in a squad that have some pride in playing for the badge, rather than a rambled together group of journeymen. The overall quality of the side (LG excluded) has improved immeasurably since this time last year. What we need to realise is last year was a fluke, we are never in the market for a player of LG's quality, he's simply too good for us, so we need to measure improvement on the quality of the rest of the squad. Fenlon is also putting some emphasis on youth, which is exactly what a club like hibs should be doing. Experience is often overrated, and you're never going uncover gems like Harris is you're not playing them. All in all, I'm pretty happy with that job.

So the other option is, we change manager now, we carry on with the same ramble off the scenes and have some short term success. In 2 years it's just all going to unravel again, and there'll be the same witch hunt as we're seeing with Fenlon. I'd almost argue Fenlon has been too weak. Screw success for the next 2/3 years, be resigned to finishing 9th. Overhaul the club completely and put ourselves into a position where we can challenge the top on a continual basis after that. Rangers are out another 2 years, there's an extra club who we're going to take points off just out of pure fluke, so we're not really in a position where we're going to be going down, if there's any time to do it, it's now. But sack now and bring in somebody just for some short term success, maybe top 6 if we're really lucky, will just see us going through the same cycle of mediocrity year after year after year, I don't see the benefit.



Yet it was a one off, it didn't wasn't an accurate representation of the quality of Arsenals squad. In the same vain, the Malmo result wasn't an accurate representation of our squad. It was a fluke, a one off, the players gave up. The quality of the football does not matter, nor do the tactics, simply that a bad performance isn't a way to measure a squad.

I find it funny using a cup final losses as a negative too. Sure, nobody wanted to lose 5-1 to hearts. Nobody wants to go to a cup final to lose to celtic without really challenging for the title. But jesus, by making the final you were the second best side in the competition. Making a final is a sign of quality or would you rather we went out with a 1-0 wimper in the first round every year, so we can't be subjected to the embarrassment of a cup final defeat? Cop on, really?


And the evidence of this can be found exactly where?

I came hearing about professional attitudes, winning mentality , difficult to beat etc -------------- if these are the attributes that Fenlon has supposedly introduced to the squad then he's failed miserably.

PeterboroHibee
12-08-2013, 03:22 PM
I find it embarrassing that Fenlon is prepared to come out after those two games and say we lost down to bad luck and that he thinks we played well.

Bad luck for me would be outplaying the team, creating a host of chances (hitting the post/bar, keeper having a blinder etc), then getting done through a really crappy, deflected goal. I didnt see any of that yesterday. The only two real chances I can remember us having were Taiwos miss, and Collins shot after Vines pass - amazingly, both created through the ball being on the deck. Hearts goal on the other hand was excellent, sloppy defending from us (of course), but a great ball in and a bullet of a header.

I also dont think you can blame injuries for the way we are playing. Our two 'creative' players who are missing are Harris and Cairney. Would either of them being in the team stop the rest of the players from booting it long? The fact Harris was playing last week and it was exactly the same suggests not.

Treadstone
12-08-2013, 03:31 PM
If the SPFL games are the exception rather than the rule, I'd like you to show me 3 games, other than the 2012 cup final and the Malmo game where we've shipped more than 4. An exception to the rule would imply that we get pumped week in week out, which simply isn't the case, nor has it been at any stage recently. 2 pumpings doesn't make it a rule.

I'll point you to Bayern Munich. The reason Bayern Munich are so successful is due to the consistency they have in their leadership team. This extends beyond the manager, they have people in like Sammer who've been strong and now been there for a few years. Others like Beckenbauer and Rummenigge in leadership positions that have been there even longer, who have a genuine identity to the club providing the basis for a strong team. My first team, Dortmund have also reaped the benefits of having a long standing leadership team in charge, after years of sacking managers and no success.

Ancelotti was most successful in his longest stint (AC Milan). Alex Ferguson won countless titles over a long stint. Wenger similarly has been successful over a long period of time. All the most successful teams out there have had long standing managers, with the few exceptions either being the worlds top managers (Hiddink, Mourinho) which we're never going to be in the market for or having more money than everybody else (mostly Chelsea and Madrid).

If we want to put in the performances on the pitch, things need to improve off the pitch, and that simply cannot happen when you keep chopping and changing managers and systems ever 2 years. Look at Barcelona, they've not set up a club behind the scenes that is now pretty much self serving. A manager has to buy into the club to have success and every team from the under 10's up plays the same style so that there is a seamless transition into the first team. That's continuity like almost no other club has it, and look what it's done for them, the most successful club in the later 00's. So, the two most successful clubs of this century so far have been AC Milan and Barcelona, both sides that weren't chopping and changing every 18 months. Figures.

Pat Fenlon has not brought the results on the pitch, but he's brought them off the pitch. He's slowly but surely investing in a squad that have some pride in playing for the badge, rather than a rambled together group of journeymen. The overall quality of the side (LG excluded) has improved immeasurably since this time last year. What we need to realise is last year was a fluke, we are never in the market for a player of LG's quality, he's simply too good for us, so we need to measure improvement on the quality of the rest of the squad. Fenlon is also putting some emphasis on youth, which is exactly what a club like hibs should be doing. Experience is often overrated, and you're never going uncover gems like Harris is you're not playing them. All in all, I'm pretty happy with that job.

So the other option is, we change manager now, we carry on with the same ramble off the scenes and have some short term success. In 2 years it's just all going to unravel again, and there'll be the same witch hunt as we're seeing with Fenlon. I'd almost argue Fenlon has been too weak. Screw success for the next 2/3 years, be resigned to finishing 9th. Overhaul the club completely and put ourselves into a position where we can challenge the top on a continual basis after that. Rangers are out another 2 years, there's an extra club who we're going to take points off just out of pure fluke, so we're not really in a position where we're going to be going down, if there's any time to do it, it's now. But sack now and bring in somebody just for some short term success, maybe top 6 if we're really lucky, will just see us going through the same cycle of mediocrity year after year after year, I don't see the benefit.


What an absolute roaster of a post.
"show me 3 games, other than the 2012 cup final and the Malmo game where we've shipped more than 4" WOW!. Is four not enough for you ? Conveniently taking out games where they have. Plenty fours and threes during his reign, thirteen in sixty three league games, but hey its not five so thats okay.

Mentioning the biggest and most successful european clubs as why clubs don't change manager as often is a misnomer. Putting Madrid and Chelsea success down to the talents of the manager because it doesn't fit your argument. Guaranteed if Bayern Munich didn't have success they would fire their manager as they have done quite a few times over the last ten years but again doesn't suit your weak reasoning so you extend it "to the consistency they have in their leadership team".

"compared to last year we look like Barcelona" :faf:

Says it all.

MinceAndTatties
12-08-2013, 03:31 PM
But jesus, by making the final you were the second best side in the competition.

I note the use of the "you" rather than we. Your location suggests that you don't live near enough to watch Hibs regularly.
The comparison with Alex Ferguson is laughable. A more valid benchmark would be other SPL managers e.g Kenny Shiels who managed to get their team playing good football, win a trophy and on a much smaller budget.

neilmartinrocks
12-08-2013, 03:38 PM
Good players + ***** negative tactics = rotten football. Getting a bit pissed off watching the eyebleeding ***** on offer @ E.R. we need a manager who knows how to play players where the play best.

BVB Hibs
12-08-2013, 03:52 PM
If you'd read what I'd said, you'd see I put down Chelsea and Madrid down to money. Same as Celtic, Celtic could have almost anybody in charge and win the SPL at the moment as they can sign a calibre of player nobody else can.

The use of you if simply a reference to the team. Not you, as in hibs fans, but you as in one. I'll rephrase that if you like, if one makes the final of a competition then one is the second best in said competition. If we're going to get pernickity about use of language and the location on my profile (which isn't correct by the way, I'm studying in Edinburgh but living in Dublin currently) and say that invalidates my argument where is that going to get us?

In what way are my comparisons laughable though. "Oh, but Alex Ferguson was good, so it's not a fair comparison". It's entirely a fair comparison, he was there for a long time, and the consistency is where the success has come from. It's the same at every club in the world that isn't simply a sheikh club, consistency leads to success. Sure, Bayern sack managers, but the German system is considerably different when you consider who is behind the running of the club. They've also had losing seasons which has resulted from a change. Klinsmann would be the major example of that.

The Kenny Shiels example doesn't really fly in my opinion. Short term success is not the same as setting up a competitive side. We could bring in a new manager today, win the cup this year and in two years time still be 9th in the table. Di Matteo for Chelsea is just another example, he won the champions league but still showed there were bigger problems with the club than simply the manager.

I can't see simply bringing in a new manager at this stage bringing about any great change. It's as simple as that. Bringing in somebody new means we have to let him build his own squad again, players in, players out. Have a season of him playing with an inherited squad that he most likely doesn't want, and then wanting to sack him again when he brings in a bunch of new starts that don't win games from the gun. If we want sustained success, we need to give somebody a go for longer than two years. We've let Fenlon set things up for the year, give him the opportunity before just throwing him out before we've gotten going. If at the end of the season he's failed, fair enough, but who's it going to benefit bringing in a new manager now? Not the players and not the incoming coach.

Treadstone
12-08-2013, 04:04 PM
If you'd read what I'd said, you'd see I put down Chelsea and Madrid down to money. Same as Celtic, Celtic could have almost anybody in charge and win the SPL at the moment as they can sign a calibre of player nobody else can.

The use of you if simply a reference to the team. Not you, as in hibs fans, but you as in one. I'll rephrase that if you like, if one makes the final of a competition then one is the second best in said competition. If we're going to get pernickity about use of language and the location on my profile (which isn't correct by the way, I'm studying in Edinburgh but living in Dublin currently) and say that invalidates my argument where is that going to get us?

In what way are my comparisons laughable though. "Oh, but Alex Ferguson was good, so it's not a fair comparison". It's entirely a fair comparison, he was there for a long time, and the consistency is where the success has come from. It's the same at every club in the world that isn't simply a sheikh club, consistency leads to success. Sure, Bayern sack managers, but the German system is considerably different when you consider who is behind the running of the club. They've also had losing seasons which has resulted from a change. Klinsmann would be the major example of that.

The Kenny Shiels example doesn't really fly in my opinion. Short term success is not the same as setting up a competitive side. We could bring in a new manager today, win the cup this year and in two years time still be 9th in the table. Di Matteo for Chelsea is just another example, he won the champions league but still showed there were bigger problems with the club than simply the manager.

I can't see simply bringing in a new manager at this stage bringing about any great change. It's as simple as that. Bringing in somebody new means we have to let him build his own squad again, players in, players out. Have a season of him playing with an inherited squad that he most likely doesn't want, and then wanting to sack him again when he brings in a bunch of new starts that don't win games from the gun. If we want sustained success, we need to give somebody a go for longer than two years. We've let Fenlon set things up for the year, give him the opportunity before just throwing him out before we've gotten going. If at the end of the season he's failed, fair enough, but who's it going to benefit bringing in a new manager now? Not the players and not the incoming coach.

Stick to the 'Shoot' annuals.

brog
12-08-2013, 04:14 PM
I want PF out & I want a return to excitement & flair at ER but the OP makes some interesting & valid points which deserve better consideration than some of the replies posted here. We can surely debate the way forward for the club we all support without resorting to petty abuse.

Dunderhall
12-08-2013, 04:49 PM
BVB makes a couple of decent points, one slightly flawed.

If we got the right manager in, gave him the financial backing, assumed he would turn down all offers from other clubs and gave him time then it'll work out. FACT, END OF.
Oh yes, the flaw, just base it on Pat Fenlon.

However the other point about PF staying is correct, we'd be screwed for success and 9th would be a target.

Im surprised nobody else has cottoned onto using the European super team model before, still as long as things are OK off the park.

PeeJay
12-08-2013, 05:14 PM
I'll point you to Bayern Munich. The reason Bayern Munich are so successful is due to the consistency they have in their leadership team. This extends beyond the manager, they have people in like Sammer who've been strong and now been there for a few years. Others like Beckenbauer and Rummenigge in leadership positions that have been there even longer, who have a genuine identity to the club providing the basis for a strong team. My first team, Dortmund have also reaped the benefits of having a long standing leadership team in charge, after years of sacking managers and no success.



With all due respect, if you're going to bring up the team I dislike the most here in Germany then please get your facts right. Sammer has next to nothing to do with Bayern's strength - zilch: he's a new kid in town, he only joined in July 2012. Beckenbauer and Rummenige certainly have their good points, and have contributed to the growth at the club, but quite how you can fail completely to mention the git that is Uli Hoeness is beyond me. He "alone" has turned this club into the huge club that it has become ... you simply cannot talk of Bayern's march to success without mentioning Uli H. and his vision for the club, not to forget his financial shenanigans. Further to your general points about Bayern, they actually have a history of ditching managers, even when they've been successful! - Pep won't last long IMO ... :greengrin

MinceAndTatties
12-08-2013, 05:34 PM
I'll rephrase that if you like, if one makes the final of a competition then one is the second best in said competition.

Making the final of a knockout Cup competition does not make you the second best. League position is a much more reliable guide to ranking.


In what way are my comparisons laughable though. "Oh, but Alex Ferguson was good, so it's not a fair comparison". It's entirely a fair comparison, he was there for a long time, and the consistency is where the success has come from. It's the same at every club in the world that isn't simply a sheikh club, consistency leads to success. Sure, Bayern sack managers, but the German system is considerably different when you consider who is behind the running of the club. They've also had losing seasons which has resulted from a change. Klinsmann would be the major example of that.

Not sure what the Alex Ferguson example tells us, except in the past, keeping a good manager over a long period can lead to success. It would be possible to point to other examples where a change has worked. Ferguson won European trophies with Aberdeen. In practice, particularly nowadays, the manager will not be around more than 2-3 years. If they are good, they will move on. If they fail, they will be punted.


The Kenny Shiels example doesn't really fly in my opinion. Short term success is not the same as setting up a competitive side. We could bring in a new manager today, win the cup this year and in two years time still be 9th in the table. Di Matteo for Chelsea is just another example, he won the champions league but still showed there were bigger problems with the club than simply the manager.

Chelsea does not support your case. Lots of managerial changes, a lot of success. Where you might be onto something, is the point that good players are at least as important in a team's success. In our case, that must involve developing young players but we are not bringing young players through (except Harris ?) or are wasting them (Wotherspoon).



I can't see simply bringing in a new manager at this stage bringing about any great change. It's as simple as that. Bringing in somebody new means we have to let him build his own squad again, players in, players out. Have a season of him playing with an inherited squad that he most likely doesn't want, and then wanting to sack him again when he brings in a bunch of new starts that don't win games from the gun. If we want sustained success, we need to give somebody a go for longer than two years. We've let Fenlon set things up for the year, give him the opportunity before just throwing him out before we've gotten going. If at the end of the season he's failed, fair enough, but who's it going to benefit bringing in a new manager now? Not the players and not the incoming coach.

I personally support the model of Director of Football providing the continuity and having responsibility for development throughout the whole club, enforcing a style and philosophy of football in which players are educated. Players would only be acquired that fit and coaches would only be employed if they adhere to the Hibernian way. I see no evidence that Fenlon is a good coach or has made any significant improvement in team play or individuals. Arguably, his treatment of Wotherspoon ruined a promising player. IMO Fenlon is a bad appointment who got lucky by having Leigh Griffiths in his squad. Nichol would not do any worse until such time as we can find someone with the right coaching background (a Tony Mowbray type).

BVB Hibs
12-08-2013, 06:55 PM
With all due respect, if you're going to bring up the team I dislike the most here in Germany then please get your facts right. Sammer has next to nothing to do with Bayern's strength - zilch: he's a new kid in town, he only joined in July 2012. Beckenbauer and Rummenige certainly have their good points, and have contributed to the growth at the club, but quite how you can fail completely to mention the git that is Uli Hoeness is beyond me. He "alone" has turned this club into the huge club that it has become ... you simply cannot talk of Bayern's march to success without mentioning Uli H. and his vision for the club, not to forget his financial shenanigans. Further to your general points about Bayern, they actually have a history of ditching managers, even when they've been successful! - Pep won't last long IMO ... :greengrin

I do not say that mans name. I refuse to. I suppose collusion and downright tax dodging probably contributed to Bayern's success, but I will never give that man credit for anything. I also think you're very much looking over Sammers influence in that side, the man cannot be underestimated. Massive success for Dortmund (until our dodgy dealings caught up with us), massive success when working with the DFB and big success with Bayern. He does my head in, but I'd take him back in a heartbeat.

However, through all the managerial changes, the leadership in that club hasn't changed, and when somebody new has come they've been selectively scouted in, such as Sammer was. The post above talks about a DOF role in Hibs, which I'd definitely be an advocate of. If we get somebody with a proper footballing philosophy who is willing to build the club from the bottom up, we'll put ourselves in the best position we can be in. Pat Fenlon has tried to be that man, he's the wrong man for that job, but the change does need to be made.

The number one thing we need is stability though, and just removing Fenlon without changing anything in the club is just going to lead to another manager to come in and fail. I'm still going to argue that we're not far off playing decent football, and getting results. Fenlon was never the most attacking manager in Ireland, but he won trophy upon trophy, he's got a winning mentality, I can't see any other manager coming in and doing anything better with the season than he will, so why not carry on, give him a chance and either hold him if he turns it around or offer a new manager a fresh slate next season? We're not exactly in a precarious position in the table, we're only 2 weeks in and we'll not be bottom come April. Changing things up now is giving up on the season, which seems a silly thing to do when we're still in August. If we're bottom at christmas, maybe we need somebody to come in and salvage the situation, but as far as I'm concerned, we won't be.

The_Todd
12-08-2013, 07:28 PM
We were playing a Hearts team decimated by administration, forced to play a glorified U21 squad and they lost one of their only senior players early in the first half. That we couldn't play a half decent game of football goes far, far beyond "unlucky". It's despicable. I suspect we could lose to Hearts U13 Girls and some people would say we were unlucky.

Paisley Hibby
12-08-2013, 07:47 PM
I can't believe some are STILL defending him. You can't be Hibs fans surely, or watch that week in week out? A fully fit Hibs team CAN'T pass the ball, a fully fit Hibs team CAN'T score goals.

Please, just please stop it with the "we might just get a wee break or a goal stuff". He's out his depth for Christ sakes. The football under him since he's came in has been so bad it's eye bleeding its not going to change he's had 2 years. Teams needs to gel aye? Like Caley and Dons teams do? Some folk just can't bring themselves to say he's ***** and they are wrong.

Sorry if that's harsh but it's like when someone is trapped in a daze and needs a good slap across the face to wake them out of it.

:top marks

FromTheCapital
12-08-2013, 07:49 PM
When we got the ball on the deck against Well & Them we were creating chances, looking promising and playing them off the park. Just need to start doing it consistently and I think things will turn round. Fenlon's tactics are pretty poor though as it's blatantly obvious that Lewis Stevenson is NOT a footballer & Liam Craig shouldn't play left midfield. We're two games into the season and I think people just need to be patient for now and then we can decide what we think.

Golden Bear
12-08-2013, 07:55 PM
When we got the ball on the deck against Well & Them we were creating chances, looking promising and playing them off the park. Just need to start doing it consistently and I think things will turn round. Fenlon's tactics are pretty poor though as it's blatantly obvious that Lewis Stevenson is NOT a footballer & Liam Craig shouldn't play left midfield. We're two games into the season and I think people just need to be patient for now and then we can decide what we think.

We've been patient for 18 months , the standard of football has not improved and won't improve as long as Fenlon is the helm.

Enough is enough.

Shields Hibee
12-08-2013, 08:03 PM
The problem is whenever we play well as the football has been played on the ground, Fenlon goes back to the hoofball tactic and we are back to square one. 2nd half against Falkirk in SF at Hampden we moved the ball on the ground, looked more of a threat & turned the game round. A week later on the Monday night against the Dons and back to the usual punting balls up the field result goalless draw.