Nevin: give Fenlon more time

[Liberal Hibby]

And everyone's choice of DoF says Fenlon needs more time to let his new signings gel.

Thoughts?

[Billychaotic182]

And everyone's choice of DoF says Fenlon needs more time to let his new signings gel.

Thoughts?

It's not his signings that's the problem it's his tactics and his inability to
Motivate players. Every Big game we have played under him we have look scared and unprepared

[JJP]

I agreed with every word he said.

[Hibercelona]

And everyone's choice of DoF says Fenlon needs more time to let his new signings gel.

Thoughts?

Why are we the only club in Scottish football that requires gel in time for players?

Other clubs in the league have no problem signing players and getting them to have an instant impact. They play players in the correct positions and have them playing to their strengths. They don't require time to get all cozy and settled.

[J-C]

Why are we the only club in Scottish football that requires gel in time for players?

Other clubs in the league have no problem signing players and getting them to have an instant impact. They play players in the correct positions and have them playing to their strengths. They don't require time to get all cozy and settled.

Very true, let Craig play central AM not left wing etc and they don't need gelling.
Apart from OTJ, he's played in his natural position and he's still pants.

[heid the baw]

Why are we the only club in Scottish football that requires gel in time for players?

Other clubs in the league have no problem signing players and getting them to have an instant impact. They play players in the correct positions and have them playing to their strengths. They don't require time to get all cozy and settled.

Spot on 100%, this talk of gelling is just another feeble excuse. Vine and Craig played together at St Johnstone. Their replacements seemed to gel well enough to punch above their weight on Europe, as did Wotherspoon....

[HFC 0-7]

Said this a lot of times, football teams in Scotland nowadays consists of a couple of long serving players with loans and short term deals. There is no time for teams to gel, you have to hit the ground running. Other teams can do it, we can't. As others have said fenlons tactics are the problem. He has the fear of losing on his mind when putting the team together instead of having a fear of not winning.

[IberianHibernian]

Haven`t Heard Nevin`s interview but agree that demanding managerial change after signing so many players so recently is not right way to run club . More than half our team have just arrived and some are writing them off as duds already . I said here a few weeks ago that if Fenlon was to go he should have gone in summer at season`s end or at latest after Malmo results . We played very badly at Tynecastle and lost against a terrible Hearts team but if we`d lost at Paisley or Kilmarnock would reaction be the same ? We were top of the league in November with a worse squad and now players and manager have a great motivation to do the same again thjis season .

[Liberal Hibby]

Said this a lot of times, football teams in Scotland nowadays consists of a couple of long serving players with loans and short term deals. There is no time for teams to gel, you have to hit the ground running. Other teams can do it, we can't. As others have said fenlons tactics are the problem. He has the fear of losing on his mind when putting the team together instead of having a fear of not winning.

I think there's a lot in that. I think if Fenlon goes (and it is surely a matter of time now) that his replacement should only be appointed once the transfer window is shut. That gives him three months to coach the current squad (who on paper should easily be top six) rather than tear it apart and sign another team over the next couple of windows.

If we can't have managerial continuity then we shold at least try and get the best out of the existing team.

I'd like to see the board invest in a previously successful manager, but not give him a budget to buy new players. But I don't know any successful manager who might accept those terms...

[hibeedonald]

Very true, let Craig play central AM not left wing etc and they don't need gelling.
Apart from OTJ, he's played in his natural position and he's still pants.

Except we know OTJ isn't pants, look what Terry Butcher got out of him. Players don't just get bad over 3 months. Something is wrong.

[onfire]

I agree with Pat n, I was as papped off as everyone else today, but I still think once the pressure is off, pat f can turn it round - in saying that he doesn't have that many games left to do this.

There's a fear of losing rather than wanting to win in the team selction. The ploy of the long ball wasn't working 1st half but when Ryan m came on I thought we played much better- could have / should have got a goal.

I'm not in the 'know ' but I don't think he's lost the dressing room.

I'd like to see Caldwell up with Collins with vine or handling or Craig playing just behind them against utd.

[Archie70]

Its changed days.
Players sign short term or loan deals, there is no time given to gel.
We seem to have spent at least the last decade saying "give him time" whoever the manager is. You no longer have time.
PF has been given time, its his team, his tactics, his fitness levels and they are rank rotten. Come Christmas there will be other comings and goings, same again next summer, we can't keep just saying it's a new team give him time.
He should have built the nucleus and everyone that came in in the summer should have slotted in to his style of play and improved what we had.
Sadly we look as far away from a team as we did when he arrived. This is despite the Boards backing and him signing players that "should" walk into most other sides in the league.
He has the ability to turn good players into average ones. His negativity is killing us. His ability to preside over the worst 2, possibly even 3, results for a long long time should and hopefully will signal the end.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Even if Fenlon's style of football starts to win games, he surely isn't a long term option? I am all for giving managers time but the options from PF have been awful football and win and awful football and lose.

[Pete]

Haven`t Heard Nevin`s interview but agree that demanding managerial change after signing so many players so recently is not right way to run club . More than half our team have just arrived and some are writing them off as duds already . I said here a few weeks ago that if Fenlon was to go he should have gone in summer at season`s end or at latest after Malmo results . We played very badly at Tynecastle and lost against a terrible Hearts team but if we`d lost at Paisley or Kilmarnock would reaction be the same ? We were top of the league in November with a worse squad and now players and manager have a great motivation to do the same again thjis season .

On reflection I agree.

Derbies always bring out emotional reactions and while we didn't deserve to win today, they didn't either.

A spirited performance and good result against united is a must. I'm hoping that this spiral of negativity can end and we can get a break that enables us to build some confidence. It's the players that count and maybe they will relax, open up and shine like they can.

I look at the club, the personnel on and off the pitch and am baffled because we should be doing so much more.

One thing I do know is that if our confidence level has risen by even 10% going into the next derby, never mind who is in charge of us, we will slaughter them.

They have nowhere to go while we can correct our situation. Their time will come.

[londonhibby]

Its changed days.
Players sign short term or loan deals, there is no time given to gel.
We seem to have spent at least the last decade saying "give him time" whoever the manager is. You no longer have time.
PF has been given time, its his team, his tactics, his fitness levels and they are rank rotten. Come Christmas there will be other comings and goings, same again next summer, we can't keep just saying it's a new team give him time.
He should have built the nucleus and everyone that came in in the summer should have slotted in to his style of play and improved what we had.
Sadly we look as far away from a team as we did when he arrived. This is despite the Boards backing and him signing players that "should" walk into most other sides in the league.
He has the ability to turn good players into average ones. His negativity is killing us. His ability to preside over the worst 2, possibly even 3, results for a long long time should and hopefully will signal the end.

I posted these on the protest thread, I guess they have some relevance here too:

http://www.hibs.net/images/icons/icon9.png



http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by IberianHibernian http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=3715565#post3715565)
6 new players in starting XI today plus KT and Robertson who joined in 2013 too leaving goalie ( 2012 ) and veterans Hanlon and Stevenson . Bad result today but agree with you totally that reaction is over the top .



Except that they (seasoned and experienced professional footballers used to changing teams and hitting the ground running) were up against a team of youngsters and a couple of not-so-seasoned professionals who also have not played that much together.

There really are no excuses for Fenlon anymore. He is tactically inept and unable to get the team to play for the shirt – which is what Locke did manage today.

I can't offer a solution to that other than to change things, and I can't offer any suggestions on how that could be done or who we could bring in. What I do know is that in 40 years of supporting Hibs, Fenlon is down there with CC, Jim Duffy and Bertie Auld. :confused:





http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by IberianHibernian http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?p=3715593#post3715593)
Not all our new players have a lot of experience ( Mullan still in teens , Collins in early 20s for example ) . We played very badly but didn`t deserve to lose and probably did enough to win ( same players will win whoever is manager in rest of season ) . Not playing for shirt ? Too soon to say and if Fenlon leaves soon I`ll remember him as a manager who did get players to play in green with passion ( debates after losing to Hearts even against a very por Hearts team like present one are not always best time to assess our team ) . If Fenlon continues he`s got a great chance to prove detractors wrong ( players too ) .



I'll give you Mullen, but he (a young, inexperienced, former Hearts player) should never have been on the park, another example of Fenlon's tactical cluelessness – but not Collins, he's had a few teams and been out on loan a few times, and anyway, he was not once fed the kind of ball he needs. As he said in his interview, he's not a target man so Fenlon's hoofball was always going to leave him high and dry.

As to the rest of your post, overall, you sound like a gambling addict "just one more chance to make it right, just one more ..." until of course the house is lost and the wife's away with the milkman.

And in particular: "We played very badly but didn`t deserve to lose and probably did enough to win ( same players will win whoever is manager in rest of season )."

Errr, no. We played really, really bad, turgid, tactically stupid hoofball and always looked likely to leak a goal because we can't defend and were not sent out to win, with players that may well win IF we get a manager who knows how to set out a team and what changes to make, if things are not working (Tom Taiwo, anyone?).


And: "Not playing for shirt ? Too soon to say and if Fenlon leaves soon I`ll remember him as a manager who did get players to play in green with passion."

OK, when in any of the games Fenlon's been in charge, apart from the second half against Falkirk, have we played with passion. There have been games last season where we won, sometimes well, but that wasn't down to Fenlon's managerial nous or ability to fire up his players. It was, in fact, mostly down to the talents of a certain Leigh Griffiths and very, very occasionally, the passion of James McPake.

I've seen this all before, it is Groundhog Day again, with the managerial situaton and with some of the support's blind faith. He's out of his depth, as were CC, Jim Duffy and Auld, (I'd include Sauzee, but he did too much good for us on the park to stain his name with such footballing non-entities) and to a lesser extent Mixu, who took the reins too early in his career and is now enjoying some success.

Yes, there is also something rotten at the heart of Hibees, but given the state of Scottish Football finance and the fact RP owns 10 per cent of the club while also being STF's evil lovechild (or something), that's not going to change anytime soon.

So, our manager's p**h and has had two years to prove that fact to us. He is the weakest link that can be changed, which leaves only one path to take ... :aok:

[The Green Goblin]

I'm honestly not sure how people can still believe that Fenlon will turn it around. Fair enough if that is their opinion, but what is it exactly that gives cause for that optimism? What evidence is there that he will achieve this? Because it's certainly not his tactical know-how or his record to date.

The defence of Fenlon in the face of everything (and again, people are entitled to argue that etc) makes me think of that story Paul Newman tells in Butch Cassidy about the guy who falls off a tall building, and as he falls past their windows people hear him saying "alright so far...alright so far..."

[GlenrothesHibee]

Pat is not up to the job. Ive supported him but no sorry he has to go now. He's now given us the 3 most embarrassing results in our history as far as im concerned. Whats next? Relegation?

[Thecat23]

I agreed with every word he said.

Then like him your wrong.

[Onion]

On reflection I agree.

Derbies always bring out emotional reactions and while we didn't deserve to win today, they didn't either.

A spirited performance and good result against united is a must. I'm hoping that this spiral of negativity can end and we can get a break that enables us to build some confidence. It's the players that count and maybe they will relax, open up and shine like they can.

I look at the club, the personnel on and off the pitch and am baffled because we should be doing so much more.

One thing I do know is that if our confidence level has risen by even 10% going into the next derby, never mind who is in charge of us, we will slaughter them.

They have nowhere to go while we can correct our situation. Their time will come.

But this was like no other Derby in history. Hearts are being run by a group of Administrators, holding bake sales to stay alive, have lost all their decent players, have Gary Locks as manager, and playing half their youth team. They even lost Stephenson to injury in the first half. In many ways, this was worse than the Malmo result. Every other SPL team would have beaten Hearts yesterday, and beaten Hibs too.

Fenlon simply has no excuse. It should not have been close.

[Iain G]

But this was like no other Derby in history. Hearts are being run by a group of Administrators, holding bake sales to stay alive, have lost all their decent players, have Gary Locks as manager, and playing half their youth team. They even lost Stephenson to injury in the first half. In many ways, this was worse than the Malmo result. Every other SPL team would have beaten Hearts yesterday, and beaten Hibs too.

Fenlon simply has no excuse. It should not have been close.

Maybe we should have just played our youth team too? Couldn't have been any worse and some of them might have been able to even pass a ball!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Then like him your wrong.

Didn't hear the comments but Nevin is a man many said should be in there and get the non-footballing accountants out. Well it would appear his words don't chime with the consensus of opinion here which illustrates the challenge we have. I think we need figure out how to get out of this spiral of destruction. If someone who is "independent" from the regime and a sympathiser then in the cold light of day we need to look at this. The problem is though as others have more eloquently stated we've have to be told to give it time too many times of late.


For the record I've now had enough as I just see no real lasting proof Pat can change games and to not have a go at Hearts yesterday was criminal. So for me a manager that can work with what is here and have us realising our potential in this season where competition is diluted further - it really is astonishing we are not in a position to cash in!

[LancsHibs]

Have a lot of time for Pat Nevin and usually agree with what he says but not on this occasion I can not see what is to be gained by Fenlon staying a day longer.

[francobaresi]

It's not his signings that's the problem it's his tactics and his inability to
Motivate players. Every Big game we have played under him we have look scared and unprepared

Totally agree, he doesn't seem to know how to motivate the team, congratulating the team after that performance yesterday is not the way and tactics, come on Pat, what were your tactics yesterday to beat Hearts? Long high ball, hit and hope, oh dear....

[patch1875]

And everyone's choice of DoF says Fenlon needs more time to let his new signings gel.

Thoughts?

is nearly 2 years long enough?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Pat is not up to the job. Ive supported him but no sorry he has to go now. He's now given us the 3 most embarrassing results in our history as far as im concerned. Whats next? Relegation?

Who knows: liquidation, administration, bake sales?

[scuttle]

Did Butcher not sign seven new players this summer for Inverness and they have made an impact straight away. Time is not the issue ,knowing what you are doing seems to be the problem

[Expecting Rain]

He has had plenty of time, we are playing in the SPL, Motherwell have lost some of their best players as have Hearts, we have signed two of St Johnstone`s best players and continue to play one of them out of position, we are playing a game of non football at the moment which is sore on the eyes and the heart, we`ve signed a centre forward and given him no support from a midfield who are all one paced and flood the midfield, where is the balance? where is the passion? where is the hard work he keeps talking about? which only he saw yesterday. I`m glad Pat Nevin is not the manager although i like him and thought he was a player i would certainly go to watch.


I can`t even comprehend the way he uses Lewis Stevenson.

[blackpoolhibs]

And some folk want Nevin as some sort of DOF, ffs he'd be no better than Petrie if thats the case. :confused:

[Gustavo Fring]

after the malmo game , fenlon and the players should have been busting a gut to win our 1st home game and the derby to restore some of our battered pride . not playing for a draw - losing both then trying to declare a 1-0 defeat as some sort of half victory

the guy is kidding himself on if he thinks he can turn this around now , its gone too far and his 1 shot at redemption was to go to tynecastle yesterday and hammer the jambos

he has failed miserably and deserves not even 1 second longer as manager of hibernianFC

[IWasThere2016]

Said this a lot of times, football teams in Scotland nowadays consists of a couple of long serving players with loans and short term deals. There is no time for teams to gel, you have to hit the ground running. Other teams can do it, we can't. As others have said fenlons tactics are the problem. He has the fear of losing on his mind when putting the team together instead of having a fear of not winning.


Except we know OTJ isn't pants, look what Terry Butcher got out of him. Players don't just get bad over 3 months. Something is wrong.

:agree:


Have a lot of time for Pat Nevin and usually agree with what he says but not on this occasion I can not see what is to be gained by Fenlon staying a day longer.

:agree:

[sesoim]

Why are we the only club in Scottish football that requires gel in time for players?

Other clubs in the league have no problem signing players and getting them to have an instant impact. They play players in the correct positions and have them playing to their strengths. They don't require time to get all cozy and settled.


:agree: Spot on.

Butcher only needs one window to virtually sign a whole new team (many of them lower/non league), and then have them playing as a team. McInnes has just come in and already Aberdeen are picking up more points and look a lot better. Fenlon's had four windows and we have as much chance of winning now as we did when he came in (and that's in spite of the League being much weaker than even two years ago).

If we keep Fenlon I think we will continue the 4-5-1 with all the central midfielders sitting well back and giving absolutely no support to Collins. Collins isn't a chase type player like Griffiths. He needs support. If Fenlons hasn't worked out that we needed to sign more than one real forward and play a 4-4-2, then he shouldn't be anywhere near the Hibs manager's job.

Folk talk about him needing more time but this season shouldn't be about us staying above Hearts, it should be about us challenging for second. Thanks to Fenlon, we wont be anywhere near that.

[ahibby]

Nelson and Collins had no pre season with others in the team and therefore will need time to gel. Hearts having not brought in any new players were at least able to field a team with good knowledge of each other, Tynecastle, the derby and the SPL, Hearts also had the home advantage and the advantage of playing for survival already. Although like everyone else I was disappointed not just by the result but the manner of it but at least we can point to some excuses. After a few games those excuses will be null and void although some won't accept them even at this stage (that is not a criticism).

[deeks01]

Fenlon has made some very impressive signings however his tactics are utterly baffling. He seems determined to play this 4 5 1 formation for which you need wingers. We have no natural wingers apart from a now injured 18 year old in his full first season for the club. Liam Craig is not a winger , he is a decent left midfielder in other systems but not an out & out winger , and Vine is not a winger by any means whatsoever. He insists on playing a lone striker with zero support for the majority of games. He has overloaded us in the middle with defensive minded CM's yet bypasses the midfield completely by having the players punt the ball over their heads. At times yesterday the team played some lovely passes... going back the way, in order to punt it to a rather perplexed looking Collins. Why not just pass the ball forward in the first place? It seems obvious this is how he wants us to play. It's not football. It's not entertaining in the slightest I have never been so bored at a football match in my life as yesterday. It is going to be a long season for us all if this continues. If it reaches the stage where you think the little boy of perhaps 5 years old 2 rows back from you is sounding more tactically proficient with what he is shouting than your team's manager and you're confident he would have made better decisions than your team's manager made at any point during the game (and I genuinely believe he would've) then the conclusion is the manager is incompetent and has to go. Better just to bite the bullet and do it now as we all know it is coming after the last few results. If we leave it too long we will most likely be in serious danger of relegation. I do not want to watch Hibs play that way all season. I'll support my team but honestly feel it would be a very grim season with Fenlon in charge. Appreciate all the good work he's done for the club & he seems a decent bloke but I'm not defending him anymore it's time for him to go.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

[Leithenhibby]

And everyone's choice of DoF says Fenlon needs more time to let his new signings gel.

Thoughts?

This has, and rightly so, been done to death. I'm of the same thinking of PS in the link below. Having watched the highlights again, I'm of the thinking that the players do need some more time to get it together. Looking back they let PF down at Tynie as some of the finishing was down right woeful. I know I'm in the minority of fans that want to give him (PF) till Christmas! So, yes, more time methinks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23664037

[Steve20]

This has, and rightly so, been done to death. I'm of the same thinking of PS in the link below. Having watched the highlights again, I'm of the thinking that the players do need some more time to get it together. Looking back they let PF down at Tynie as some of the finishing was down right woeful. I know I'm in the minority of fans that want to give him (PF) till Christmas! So, yes, more time methinks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23664037

Giving him more time is just going to lead to us losing more games and Hearts closing the points difference on us. He's just not got what it takes. We need to get rid of him today.

[Leithenhibby]

Giving him more time is just going to lead to us losing more games and Hearts closing the points difference on us. He's just not got what it takes. We need to get rid of him today.

What he doesn't have is a full squad to choose from, he has made some useful signings this summer, and for me is building a pretty decent squad.

We had 6, 6 new starts yesterday, and with a little bit of thinking the players should have won that game. The spell in the second half when we probably had around 4 half decent chances and took none. Woeful....

And that not PF's fault.

[Steve20]

The squad he has built lacks pace and creativity. There's also no wide players, apart from Harris who is injured. Liam Craig should be playing more central. I'd say he has done a very poor job at building the squad.

[Golden Bear]

What he doesn't have is a full squad to choose from, he has made some useful signings this summer, and for me is building a pretty decent squad.

We had 6, 6 new starts yesterday, and with a little bit of thinking the players should have won that game. The spell in the second half when we probably had around 4 half decent chances and took none. Woeful....

And that not PF's fault.


It's time to wake up and smell the coffee my friend. There's already enough evidence to suggest that we're relegation fodder this season unless the Board act now. Things will never change under Fenlon so don't kid yourself on.

[Keith_M]

Yep, give him more time, I'm sure there are yet more humiliations that he can heap upon the club and support.

[Waxy]

Yeh.
Why is it always Hibs that need time to build a team, team to gel,get things right etc?
Every other team dont.
They just play right to their strengths at any given time,no moaning.
And always seem to do better than us.


Something is seriously seriously seriously wrong.
Get rentokil to have a run through ER

[Leithenhibby]

The squad he has built lacks pace and creativity. There's also no wide players, apart from Harris who is injured. Liam Craig should be playing more central. I'd say he has done a very poor job at building the squad.

I also thought that LC was carrying an injury yesterday, notice he got some individual coaching down in the corner. Twists and turns and short sprints, thought is strange that he was singled out for this!

The one thing that I'm not going to do is panic. Last November we sat at the top of the league and you know what happened. I just wish he could have a full squad asap and get this sorted.

One thing is for sure, if he does go and we get a new manager there ain't going to be much, if any money to spend.

[Scouse Hibee]

We've given him reasonable resources to build a team, he's brought in the players he wanted yet he seems to have no clue how to build a team with them, his time is up IMO.

[Leithenhibby]

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee my friend. There's already enough evidence to suggest that we're relegation fodder this season unless the Board act now. Things will never change under Fenlon so don't kid yourself on.

Make no mistake, I know that it's as bad as it's been and I want it fixed asap. I'm just worried that we, as a club are going round and round in circles with no real direction.

As many have said, it's more than PF that's wrong with this club. Let's not just pick on the easy option.......

[Pretty Boy]

Yep, give him more time, I'm sure there are yet more humiliations that he can heap upon the club and support.

I really wonder what more he has to do to get some people to want rid of him.

Beaten 5-1 by Hearts, 3-0 by Celtic in cup finals, 461 minutes without a goal this season, beaten in the League Cup by a 2nd division team, beaten 5-0 at home by Celtic, beaten 9-0 by Malmo, failed to make top 6, a reign that has been characterised by absolutely honking football with the exception of a spell of 15 or so games, failed to address many of the key issues within the side even after almost 2 years in the job........

Seriously whats it going to take for some of these guys to wake up? Relegation? A play off? Losing by double figures? Another 4 games without a goal? A defeat to a 3rd division team?

I'm honestly stunned some people in the Hibs support are still trying to make excuses for the guy.

[exHIBition]

I've never managed a professional football club so I can't really make a comment without knowing how difficult or easy the job is.

[Keith_M]

I've never managed a professional football club so I can't really make a comment without knowing how difficult or easy the job is.


I bought a pie from Greggs the other day. It had worms in the middle and was surrounded with mould.

However, I'm no Baker so I feel I should just eat it without complaint and keep buying my pies from Greggs. After all, they're the experts.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I bought a pie from Greggs the other day. It had worms in the middle and was surrounded with mould.

However, I'm no Baker so I feel I should just eat it without complaint and keep buying my pies from Greggs. After all, they're the experts.

Which Greggs?

[clerriehibs]

I think there's a lot in that. I think if Fenlon goes (and it is surely a matter of time now) that his replacement should only be appointed once the transfer window is shut. That gives him three months to coach the current squad (who on paper should easily be top six) rather than tear it apart and sign another team over the next couple of windows.

If we can't have managerial continuity then we shold at least try and get the best out of the existing team.

I'd like to see the board invest in a previously successful manager, but not give him a budget to buy new players. But I don't know any successful manager who might accept those terms...

Mr John 'Yogi' Hughes.

[exHIBition]

I bought a pie from Greggs the other day. It had worms in the middle and was surrounded with mould.

However, I'm no Baker so I feel I should just eat it without complaint and keep buying my pies from Greggs. After all, they're the experts.

I can make a fine pie myself.......I can't manage a football club though.

[YehButNoBut]

Except we know OTJ isn't pants, look what Terry Butcher got out of him. Players don't just get bad over 3 months. Something is wrong.

Would be interesting to get OTJ's views on the difference between the approach in both camps.

i.e. how does Butchers approach, teamtalk, tactics, training etc differ to Pat's.

[WhileTheChief..]

I really wonder what more he has to do to get some people to want rid of him.

Beaten 5-1 by Hearts, 3-0 by Celtic in cup finals, 461 minutes without a goal this season, beaten in the League Cup by a 2nd division team, beaten 5-0 at home by Celtic, beaten 9-0 by Malmo, failed to make top 6, a reign that has been characterised by absolutely honking football with the exception of a spell of 15 or so games, failed to address many of the key issues within the side even after almost 2 years in the job........

Seriously whats it going to take for some of these guys to wake up? Relegation? A play off? Losing by double figures? Another 4 games without a goal? A defeat to a 3rd division team?

I'm honestly stunned some people in the Hibs support are still trying to make excuses for the guy.

Brilliant post that saves me loads of typing.

Nail on head.

[WhileTheChief..]

What he doesn't have is a full squad to choose from, he has made some useful signings this summer, and for me is building a pretty decent squad.

We had 6, 6 new starts yesterday, and with a little bit of thinking the players should have won that game. The spell in the second half when we probably had around 4 half decent chances and took none. Woeful....

And that not PF's fault.

We had 6 new starts all of which are experienced players for their previous clubs.

Hearts had a team of kids barely out of school.

Go figure.

[weonlywon6-2]

Did Butcher not sign seven new players this summer for Inverness and they have made an impact straight away. Time is not the issue ,knowing what you are doing seems to be the problem

This is it exactly.How come other teams can hit the ground running but we cant????
Time for a change,its no working with Pat.

[Fergus52]

Then like him your wrong.

Saying that's pretty immature.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you.

[weonlywon6-2]

Did Butcher not sign seven new players this summer for Inverness and they have made an impact straight away. Time is not the issue ,knowing what you are doing seems to be the problem

This is it exactly.How come other teams can hit the ground running but we cant????
Time for a change,its no working with Pat.

[snooky]

I really wonder what more he has to do to get some people to want rid of him.

Beaten 5-1 by Hearts, 3-0 by Celtic in cup finals, 461 minutes without a goal this season, beaten in the League Cup by a 2nd division team, beaten 5-0 at home by Celtic, beaten 9-0 by Malmo, failed to make top 6, a reign that has been characterised by absolutely honking football with the exception of a spell of 15 or so games, failed to address many of the key issues within the side even after almost 2 years in the job........

Seriously whats it going to take for some of these guys to wake up? Relegation? A play off? Losing by double figures? Another 4 games without a goal? A defeat to a 3rd division team?

I'm honestly stunned some people in the Hibs support are still trying to make excuses for the guy.

Good post, PB

If he set fire to ER, would you give him more time to turn off the sprinklers? :hmmm:
Naw, me neither.

[onfire]

Pat would have been better not getting to 2 cup finals and Europe. He did and whilst I'm first to admit these results were crap - he's generated money that's enabled him to get some decent players in.

Last season he beat hearts twice(should have been 3 times) celtic and were going well in the league - a bit more luck would have seen us push on even more.

He got shot of all the deadwood calderwood/Hughes signed and everyone moaned about. He's made a couple not so good signings but they were only 1 year deals and now away.

His longer contract guys are all good - Player for player now - each are better that calderwood's - bar LG.

So IMO I'll give him more time.

Things are not helped by the media stirring things up - Stuart bathgates howl in the Scotsman sums it up.

You have to do what you think - so the protesters can do their thing. I'll just not be there.

[davieh]

Fenlon's had two years and has proved he's not the guy for the job (unfortunately).

I think Pat Nevin is conscious of his reputation as a Hibs supporter and media role, and is reluctant to criticise incumbents. (Did he not speak up for CC when it was clear to all that he had well passed his sell-by date?). That is kind of understandable - but doesn't make him right.

[Heedersnvolleys]

One thing is for sure, if he does go and we get a new manager there ain't going to be much, if any money to spend.

If we pick the right guy this time he will not need money. I think we all agree on paper we have a decent squad, if the new guy is any good he should be able to get the best out of what we have got surely???
:confused:

[NorthNorfolkHFC]

Pat would have been better not getting to 2 cup finals and Europe. He did and whilst I'm first to admit these results were crap - he's generated money that's enabled him to get some decent players in.

Last season he beat hearts twice(should have been 3 times) celtic and were going well in the league - a bit more luck would have seen us push on even more.

He got shot of all the deadwood calderwood/Hughes signed and everyone moaned about. He's made a couple not so good signings but they were only 1 year deals and now away.

His longer contract guys are all good - Player for player now - each are better that calderwood's - bar LG.

So IMO I'll give him more time.

Things are not helped by the media stirring things up - Stuart bathgates howl in the Scotsman sums it up.

You have to do what you think - so the protesters can do their thing. I'll just not be there.

A bit more luck? Ah this is what we have to rely on getting us results. Not organisation, tactics or endeavour. Is your name Pat?

If you take off your Hibs-tinted glasses you'll notice Bathgates article was spot on and addressed everything that's wrong with us!

[ancienthibby]

I really wonder what more he has to do to get some people to want rid of him.

Beaten 5-1 by Hearts, 3-0 by Celtic in cup finals, 461 minutes without a goal this season, beaten in the League Cup by a 2nd division team, beaten 5-0 at home by Celtic, beaten 9-0 by Malmo, failed to make top 6, a reign that has been characterised by absolutely honking football with the exception of a spell of 15 or so games, failed to address many of the key issues within the side even after almost 2 years in the job........

Seriously whats it going to take for some of these guys to wake up? Relegation? A play off? Losing by double figures? Another 4 games without a goal? A defeat to a 3rd division team?

I'm honestly stunned some people in the Hibs support are still trying to make excuses for the guy.

I am reminded of an old (ancient?) business theory from the early seventies.

It was called The Peter Principle and its key point was that in organisations people are normally appointed to a position ABOVE THEIR LEVEL OF COMPETENCE.

This, IMHO, is preciseley the case with Feckless Fenlon. He has moved above his level of competence and will never succeed in that position.

It really annoys me when I hear pundits like Nevin and the tax-dodging cheat Dodds, suggesting that he needs to be given more time, as it's only 4 games into the season.

Aye, and what a start, 4 games played, not even a draw, not even a goal scored against 11 against.

And the performance from the start of his tenure?

Players played out of position - Cainey, Harris, Stevenson, Thomson, etc.

Substitutions at the start of his reign, beginning in the 85th minute! Now made earlier, but when have all three subs ever been made in the same game.

Tactically inept.

Clear instructions to the players to play for a draw as the favoured strategy.

Clear instructions to the midfielders not to support the strikers.

Clear failure of motivation by the manager. How often have I heard the Feckless one say that 'we prepare the players the say way every week.

Well guess what, it ain't working - and no alternative is ever offered.

Players are de-motivated by Feckless.

Bottom line is that Feckless Fenlon is not equipped to be a manager in the SPL.

It's beyond his level of competence.

He must go.

[HFC 0-7]

Fenlon has been backed with money to sign players over the various windows. Have we moved on since calderwood?

Calderwood averaged 0.95 points per game in the league in his reign

Fenlon averaging 1.13 points per game.

Over a season thats about 7 points. Lets not forget though that fenlon was manager when Rangers were replaced by Dundee in the league. We beat Dundee twice last season, drew with them and got beat once. Think the last 4 games against rangers were 3 losses and a win.

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

What he doesn't have is a full squad to choose from, he has made some useful signings this summer, and for me is building a pretty decent squad.

We had 6, 6 new starts yesterday, and with a little bit of thinking the players should have won that game. The spell in the second half when we probably had around 4 half decent chances and took none. Woeful....

And that not PF's fault.

I'm in agreement and am coming down from Aberdeen next weekend. For the person in the East Stands benefit I'm the one in the West Stand :-)

[onfire]

A bit more luck? Ah this is what we have to rely on getting us results. Not organisation, tactics or endeavour. Is your name Pat?

If you take off your Hibs-tinted glasses you'll notice Bathgates article was spot on and addressed everything that's wrong with us!


You need luck in football and in every other sport, but I'd agree tactics could be improved - he just needs time to do it and a bit less pressure.

Bathgate - if he was a jigsaw he'd be missing a brain! So his campaign was spot on? are you stuart?

And i dont need specs to see its 2 games into the season.

[dmc1875]

Fenlon has had money to spend, he has brought in who on paper are decent players who had good seasons last year (Craig, Vine, OTJ, Collins) and yet, Collins aside, the rest haven't shown anything like the same form or desire as they had last year.

How can that be possible? It has to be down to the manager and the way he sets his team out.

He got so, so lucky last year due to the fact we had Griffiths up front who had the season of his life.

This year we don't have that luxury and how a manager can identify targets and not realise that the team for the last season or two and now more than ever is CRYING OUT for width and pace.

Did he study Collins? Did he realise almost all of his goals came from wide men crossing the ball into the box? Surely he didn't think he could rely on just Alex Harris to provide the width?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Cairney prior to injury to supply crosses along with Harris?

[hibee19]

I can't believe Pat Fenlon got beat 5-1 by Hearts in a cup final and its probably only his 3rd worst result and not even in the top 10 worst performances.

[Shields Hibee]

Typical pundit reaction. Its not just the start we've had but what's happened previously that have got supporters annoyed. There's the 5-1 cup final, Falkirk SF 1st half performance, Malmo debacle & the view of I'll treat it as if its pre season plus 3-0 defeat to Celtic in the last final. If we had scored early on then it may have been a different game but we didn't.

Fenlon has been backed & the players who've come in are decent enough but not playing a system which allows them to show their strengths.The football hasn't improved but never mind, there were about 15 games or so last season that Hibs looked alright but sorry to say Mr Nevin, overall Pat Fenlon hasn't delivered where the league is concerned unless you count staying up as achievement.

If we end up in the relegation dogfight or play off, I bet Mr Nevin will be telling us that Hibs should have moved on Fenlon after Sunday.

[blackpoolhibs]

Nevin is wrong, you only have to look at how Scotland performed tonight with the same players under our new manager. It does not take as long as fenlon wants or indeed has taken to make our club better.

Scotland had a way of playing and a system that they all knew, under fenlon its just hoof the bloody thing as far as you can and chase, we did that at primary school.

[IWasThere2016]

RP will chop Fenlon when the home support dwindles .. Given the quality of football, PF leaving is just days/weeks away!

[HKhibby]

Its changed days.
Players sign short term or loan deals, there is no time given to gel.
We seem to have spent at least the last decade saying "give him time" whoever the manager is. You no longer have time.
PF has been given time, its his team, his tactics, his fitness levels and they are rank rotten. Come Christmas there will be other comings and goings, same again next summer, we can't keep just saying it's a new team give him time.
He should have built the nucleus and everyone that came in in the summer should have slotted in to his style of play and improved what we had.
Sadly we look as far away from a team as we did when he arrived. This is despite the Boards backing and him signing players that "should" walk into most other sides in the league.
He has the ability to turn good players into average ones. His negativity is killing us. His ability to preside over the worst 2, possibly even 3, results for a long long time should and hopefully will signal the end.

Exactly!, said it for a long time now, Fenlon was not what Hibs needed at all, he is inept, and his tactics are rotten which tells you about which league he came from...would never take a manager from the LOI...way worse than the SPL! if Petrie cannot see this and continues with letting him just carrying on for the sake of it managing to get a draw here and there etc..well i fear for Hibs at the end of the season...even if Hearts have -12 points!

[rcarter1]

RP will chop Fenlon when the home support dwindles .. Given the quality of football, PF leaving is just days/weeks away!

Indeed. We will lose about £500,000 if average crowds fall from 10500 (last years average) to 9500, which currently looks possible. RP needs to pull a serious rabbit out of the hat if things continue as they are.

[greenpaper55]

The reason Dodds and Nevin are sitting in a T V studio should give you a clue to their managerial abilities !. All ex players have a sort of union with managers in that they rarely come out openly and criticise them, my answer would be they never have to pay for their football and the fans are the only arbiter of whether he stays or goes.

[Expecting Rain]

There is nothing unlucky about Pat Fenlons time in charge of Hibs and he has been backed by the board in more ways than one, his inability to compete with other scottish teams who have been weakened considerably in a competition in which we should at least be challenging for places 2-6 is not unlucky, actually he may be the luckiest, surviving only because of the circumstances that surrounded the departure of the 4 previous managers.
The fans and the board have been patient and some continue to show that patience, a good starting point if given time for redemption would be to play players in their proper position, shape the team especially at Easter Road to try and create chances which would in turn maybe give us something to talk about after the game and maybe even a victory.
If the game was just about statistics and no detail we could all buy Championship manager on the computer and save ourselves from all the grief that we have to endure for 90 minutes on a regular basis.
Pat Fenlon has the tools to do the job, he has the assistance of an experienced coach in Nicholl and he has players who are just as good if not better than the other SPL managers with the exception of Celtic.

[steakbake]

Nevin is wrong, you only have to look at how Scotland performed tonight with the same players under our new manager. It does not take as long as fenlon wants or indeed has taken to make our club better.

Scotland had a way of playing and a system that they all knew, under fenlon its just hoof the bloody thing as far as you can and chase, we did that at primary school.

But doesn't that work? Hunners of lads in defence, everyone ball chasing, tackling your own strikers to get a hold of the ball, the least footballing kid stuck in goals and team marking? you also didn't have to contend with refs trying to apply "the rules". I might have played in various games where we let 15-20 in, but we nearly always scored 20-30 in response.