Get these rickshaws off the streets of Edinburgh!

[Jack]

You know what I mean, these cycle things that take folk about when the city is at its busiest.

1. They're a damned nuisance to all other road users.

2. IMO they are dangerous, partly because of 1 above. There was that serious accident a couple of years ago but I've also seen so many near misses and ohya moments.

3. What's the price? This just seems to be what they think they can get away with. Outrageous prices for short distances around town and even worse for longer distances. I have also witnessed the drivers charging each passenger - That will be £20: We agreed a fare of £10; yeah, that was £10 each.

For the sake of safety and Edinburghs reputation get these things off our streets.

[lapsedhibee]

You know what I mean, these cycle things that take folk about when the city is at its busiest.

1. They're a damned nuisance to all other road users.

2. IMO they are dangerous, partly because of 1 above. There was that serious accident a couple of years ago but I've also seen so many near misses and ohya moments.

3. What's the price? This just seems to be what they think they can get away with. Outrageous prices for short distances around town and even worse for longer distances. I have also witnessed the drivers charging each passenger - That will be £20: We agreed a fare of £10; yeah, that was £10 each.

For the sake of safety and Edinburghs reputation get these things off our streets.

I'm not seeing how they're a nuisance to cyclists, pedestrians, horses, etc, so is what you really mean They slow down drivers, and therefore should be off the roads, since roads are for drivers?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not seeing how they're a nuisance to cyclists, pedestrians, horses, etc, so is what you really mean They slow down drivers, and therefore should be off the roads, since roads are for drivers?

Absolutely agree.

The "near misses" that I've seen have almost all been caused by drivers who are either impatient or who don't know how to deal with this "nuisance".

[Beefster]

I don't see the problem. I can imagine that taxi drivers don't like them though.

[Pretty Boy]

If you think Edinburgh is bad you should see how many there are in central London.

[Scouse Hibee]

You know what I mean, these cycle things that take folk about when the city is at its busiest.

1. They're a damned nuisance to all other road users.

2. IMO they are dangerous, partly because of 1 above. There was that serious accident a couple of years ago but I've also seen so many near misses and ohya moments.

3. What's the price? This just seems to be what they think they can get away with. Outrageous prices for short distances around town and even worse for longer distances. I have also witnessed the drivers charging each passenger - That will be £20: We agreed a fare of £10; yeah, that was £10 each.

For the sake of safety and Edinburghs reputation get these things off our streets.

Are you a taxi driver?

[Pete]

I don't see the problem. I can imagine that taxi drivers don't like them though.


Are you a taxi driver?

Taxi drivers don't like them because our passengers don't like them. Absolutely nothing to do with competition as they operate on a completely different level.

They are totally unnecessary and you are literally quicker walking to your destination 90% of the time.

Cabbies also have strong opinions on them as we see them in action a lot more than the general public. It won't be long before action is taken because I've also seen the reaction of the police recently and they are getting hacked off with them causing congestion in key areas and bending the rules when it comes to crossings and pavements.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Taxi drivers don't like them because our passengers don't like them. Absolutely nothing to do with competition as they operate on a completely different level.

They are totally unnecessary and you are literally quicker walking to your destination 90% of the time.

Cabbies also have strong opinions on them as we see them in action a lot more than the general public. It won't be long before action is taken because I've also seen the reaction of the police recently and they are getting hacked off with them causing congestion in key areas and bending the rules when it comes to crossings and pavements.

I once came across one driving up the dual carriageway at Bristo Place on the wrong side. Unregulated, uninsured, and completely unsafe.

[Jack]

Are you a taxi driver?

No. I'm a retired office worker.

With regard to the other road users point; I wasn't just meaning car drivers, who are probably best placed to minimise the nuisance given their size and performance means the rickshaws are relatively easily passed.

Busses, trucks at the like have much more difficulty. Particularly up the Royal Mile, for example, where its only fair they hold up upto 75 bus passengers while they rip off the tourists.

They also tend to park up in twos and threes, on the road, on pavements, on corners, they don't seem to care causing an obstruction to all and sundry.

Edit: TBH I don't really like taxi drivers either, but that's another thread I'd maybe just avoid :-D

[derekHFC]

They have no insurance and don't pay road-tax plus as far as i'm aware, they don't have to pass any test to ride one, nor do they have to pass any test like the cabbies do. A nuisance is being kind to them.

[lapsedhibee]

They have no insurance and don't pay road-tax plus as far as i'm aware, they don't have to pass any test to ride one, nor do they have to pass any test like the cabbies do. A nuisance is being kind to them.

So just like cyclists then. Mibbe get rid of those as well, as they, too, often cause drivers to have to slow down? :dunno:

[derekHFC]

So just like cyclists then. Mibbe get rid of those as well, as they, too, often cause drivers to have to slow down? :dunno:

As far as I'm aware, cyclists don't charge other people for the use of their services though, rickshaws make a profit therefore should have a traders license of some sort, pay tax, etc.

[Sergio sledge]

They have no insurance and don't pay road-tax plus as far as i'm aware, they don't have to pass any test to ride one, nor do they have to pass any test like the cabbies do. A nuisance is being kind to them.

No-one pays road tax.

They must have some sort of public liability insurance, and if they don't then they are complete idiots.

Everyone buying a bike or pedal vehicle should have to do a cycling proficiency test IMHO, my kids certainly wont be allowed to ride anywhere near the road until they've done one. Agree there should be some sort of regulation of Rickshaw drivers, including safety standards etc.

There are bad rickshaw drivers and good rickshaw drivers, bad cyclists and good cyclists, bad car drivers and good car drivers, bad taxi drivers and good taxi drivers, bad bus drivers and good bus drivers, bad lorry drivers and good lorry drivers, bad horse riders and good horse riders.... If everyone just had a bit more patience, understanding and care for other road users then I'm sure there wouldn't be such antagonism between the different groups.

There's no excuse for any road users breaking the law though, e.g. cycling through red lights, the wrong way up one way streets, car drivers speeding, taxi drivers doing illegal u-turns etc.

[Phil D. Rolls]

So just like cyclists then. Mibbe get rid of those as well, as they, too, often cause drivers to have to slow down? :dunno:

Yep, just like cyclists that charge money to carry passengers. Except wider and operating on busy streets at night.

[lapsedhibee]

As far as I'm aware, cyclists don't charge other people for the use of their services though, rickshaws make a profit therefore should have a traders license of some sort, pay tax, etc.

Shirley the rickshawists are subject to exactly the same income tax laws as taxi drivers, innit? :dunno:


Yep, just like cyclists that charge money to carry passengers. Except wider and operating on busy streets at night.

I am now confused about what the principal objection to rickshawists is. Is it that they are a genuine public nuisance to everyone except themselves and their passengers, or is it rather a widespread jealousy among taxi drivers and reformed taxi drivers that they make too much money and have too little overhead? :confused:

[derekHFC]

No-one pays road tax.

:dunno: What is it called now then because someone at the DVLA has just been given £105 from my bank account to renew my tax disc.

[Sergio sledge]

:dunno: What is it called now then because someone at the DVLA has just been given £105 from my bank account to renew my tax disc.

Vehicle Excise Duty, based on engine size, fuel type and CO2 emissions. If bicycles and rickshaws were to be taxed under the same scheme they would be paying £0 as they have no engine and no emissions.

There is no road tax in the UK, upkeep of roads is paid for out of general and local taxation, so unless you are not a UK tax payer and don't pay council tax, everyone pays for the upkeep of the roads, including cyclists and rickshaw drivers so everyone is entitled to use them.(if you believe that entitlement is through paying taxes)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Shirley the rickshawists are subject to exactly the same income tax laws as taxi drivers, innit? :dunno:



I am now confused about what the principal objection to rickshawists is. Is it that they are a genuine public nuisance to everyone except themselves and their passengers, or is it rather a widespread jealousy among taxi drivers and reformed taxi drivers that they make too much money and have too little overhead? :confused:

Honestly, they are no competition for taxi drivers. For me, it was the irony of how strictly regulated taxis and their drivers are, compared to the rickshaws.

They operate on a street traders licence and don't go through the same safety checks. They also seem to specialise in doing dangerous things on their trikes.

If the public had to do most of their driving in the City Centre at night, they might fully appreciate the risky behaviour of the rickshaws.

The only time they bothered me on the "competition" front, was when they would tout for business at taxi ranks - such as the Pleasance. That sort of thing is not good PR.

[Jack]

Shirley the rickshawists are subject to exactly the same income tax laws as taxi drivers, innit? :dunno:



I am now confused about what the principal objection to rickshawists is. Is it that they are a genuine public nuisance to everyone except themselves and their passengers, or is it rather a widespread jealousy among taxi drivers and reformed taxi drivers that they make too much money and have too little overhead? :confused:

The original post was nothing to do with taxi drivers although I can appreciate how the rickshaws would piss them off. Although to be honest I don't see this as a serious competition gripe.

Other than ripping folk off, my opinion of their safety and therefore IMO the potential reputational damage to the city there is the unregulated aspect, back to safety, of their operation to take into account.

If I recall correctly, from the time of the serious accident, nothing, other than a rickshaw that doesn't need to be maintained, was all that was required to set up in this business.

These businesses may set up their own insurances, maintain to their own standards but there is no requirement and no licensing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The original post was nothing to do with taxi drivers although I can appreciate how the rickshaws would piss them off. Although to be honest I don't see this as a serious competition gripe.

Other than ripping folk off, my opinion of their safety and therefore IMO the potential reputational damage to the city there is the unregulated aspect, back to safety, of their operation to take into account.

If I recall correctly, from the time of the serious accident, nothing, other than a rickshaw that doesn't need to be maintained, was all that was required to set up in this business.

These businesses may set up their own insurances, maintain to their own standards but there is no requirement and no licensing.

No police check on drivers, apparently exempt from penalties for dangerous driving. Many take drugs to get them through the night.

If they operated solely on pedestrianised streets they might be OK.

[Scouse Hibee]

Plenty of folk like to use them, agree there should be some regulation but apart from that I have no objection to them.

[Future17]

No police check on drivers, apparently exempt from penalties for dangerous driving. Many take drugs to get them through the night.

If they operated solely on pedestrianised streets they might be OK.

What are you basing that on?

[Phil D. Rolls]

What are you basing that on?

I'm sorry I can't give you a link, as it was a few years back and I don't know if the forum is still there. It was a "confessions of" thread on the old Edinburgh taxi drivers forum - it seemed genuine enough at the time.

A guy spilled the beans on the dodges they got up to, how they would meet at the Park Hotel in Bruntsfield on a Sunday, and that a few of them used chemical stimulants to cycle all night. It would explain their bright disposition, reckless behaviour, and physical prowess transporting to people up and down the mound, for example.

[Beefster]

Taxi and bus drivers cause me, as a driver, lots more grief over the course of a year than rickshaw drivers.

[Scouse Hibee]

One thing that should be banned is the carrying of small children in those plastic seats on the back of your bike, I even saw a double seat the other day. I cringe every time I see them.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Taxi and bus drivers cause me, as a driver, lots more grief over the course of a year than rickshaw drivers.

The rickshaws operate at night, so most drivers don't see the chaos they cause. Anyway, we are not talking about the number of people affected, but the potential for injury and death that rickshaws bring.

Taxis and buses have been shown to be very safe ways of going from A - B. I am aware of at least one rickshaw related death in Edinburgh, and I am sure there are many unreported near misses and injuries. Furthermore, with no regulatory system, who do you report, and who do you report it to?


One thing that should be banned is the carrying of small children in those plastic seats on the back of your bike, I even saw a double seat the other day. I cringe every time I see them.

I am all for cyclists waging a war to win back the roads, but when they put kids lifes at risk, it is too much. I wouldn't cycle on Edinburgh's roads.

[--------]

I once came across one driving up the dual carriageway at Bristo Place on the wrong side. Unregulated, uninsured, and completely unsafe.

Isn't THIS the point? Taxicabs are regulated and insured. People driving motor vehicles are regulated and insured (or the great majority of them are.) Cyclists don't have to be insured, and they don't have to prove they understand the rules of the road that exist for the safety of all road-users, drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians. If I cream a cyclist who shoots off the pavement right under the wheels of my car, it's my fault, at least in the eyes of the cycling fraternity. One idiot did just that recently, and he's only alive because (1) I was actually paying attention, (2) my brakes work, and (3) he lives in the village and I really don't want any more funerals for a wee while. (Though I don't suppose his nearest and dearest would have asked me.) These rickshaws take up the same road space as a small car, really, and as such they should have to be licensed and insured, and the rider/driver/con-man operating it should have to have proved to the relevant authority (the police) that he's competent and safe. Anyone using one is an idiot.

[lapsedhibee]

Isn't THIS the point? Taxicabs are regulated and insured. People driving motor vehicles are regulated and insured (or the great majority of them are.) Cyclists don't have to be insured, and they don't have to prove they understand the rules of the road that exist for the safety of all road-users, drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians. If I cream a cyclist who shoots off the pavement right under the wheels of my car, it's my fault, at least in the eyes of the cycling fraternity. One idiot did just that recently, and he's only alive because (1) I was actually paying attention, (2) my brakes work, and (3) he lives in the village and I really don't want any more funerals for a wee while. (Though I don't suppose his nearest and dearest would have asked me.) These rickshaws take up the same road space as a small car, really, and as such they should have to be licensed and insured, and the rider/driver/con-man operating it should have to have proved to the relevant authority (the police) that he's competent and safe. Anyone using one is an idiot.

Are you talking about the passengers here? If so, bit broadbrush, non? :dunno:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Are you talking about the passengers here? If so, bit broadbrush, non? :dunno:

Maybe ill advised would be more diplomatic?

[Allant1981]

Well we were on one on saturday night and had a good laugh and will probably do it again

[lapsedhibee]

Well we were on one on saturday night and had a good laugh and will probably do it again

Ill advised idiots! :grr: :panic:

[--------]

Maybe ill advised would be more diplomatic?



What's 'diplomatic'? :devil:

Yes, 'diplomatic' would have been a better way to put it.

[RyeSloan]

The rickshaws operate at night, so most drivers don't see the chaos they cause. Anyway, we are not talking about the number of people affected, but the potential for injury and death that rickshaws bring.

Taxis and buses have been shown to be very safe ways of going from A - B. I am aware of at least one rickshaw related death in Edinburgh, and I am sure there are many unreported near misses and injuries. Furthermore, with no regulatory system, who do you report, and who do you report it to?

I am all for cyclists waging a war to win back the roads, but when they put kids lifes at risk, it is too much. I wouldn't cycle on Edinburgh's roads.

I wouldn't cycle on the roads either...sharing the same space with buses, vans, trucks, cars etc just doesn't make sense to me.

As for cycling and cyclists in Edinburgh...nothing compared to the craziness that is London. Joel's cabbies don't end up killing hundreds of them I have no idea, spent 30 mins in a London can recently and the way the cyclists totally disregarded their safety and the rules of the road was just unbelievable.

And anyone who puts their kid in a plastic seat on the back if their bike and then goes out in the same piece of road as buses needs their heads examined.

Finally back to the op. Rickshaws may look funny for the tourists but surely you must have some sort of insurance to provide fee paying services to passengers?

[lord bunberry]

I really don't like them, you never know what they are going to do when you are behind one. I always slow right down when I see one. I was driving up at marys street earlier in the year and there was a rickshaw ahead of me, I was turning right and he was in the inside lane, at the last minute he decided he was also going to turn right, I had to hit the brakes and my passenger fell out of his seat and banged his head. I got out and the passengers in the rickshaw started shouting and swearing at me, then they started having a right go at the rickshaw driver, he looked absolutely terrified.

[lapsedhibee]

there was a rickshaw ahead of me, I was turning right and he was in the inside lane, at the last minute he decided he was also going to turn right

Thank the Lord that proper taxi drivers never perform unscheduled, unannounced changes of direction. :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Thank the Lord that proper taxi drivers never perform unscheduled, unannounced changes of direction. :greengrin

Perish the thought my good man:greengrin

[Beefster]

They have no insurance and don't pay road-tax plus as far as i'm aware, they don't have to pass any test to ride one, nor do they have to pass any test like the cabbies do. A nuisance is being kind to them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23694438

[Jack]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23694438

I really think road tax, or whatever anyone cares to call it, as a reason for slagging off cyclists is a nonsense.

I think cyclists not having to have any sort of proficiency or insurance is an issue.

Yesterday I witnessed 6 examples of really poor cycling. 2 went through red lights, one jinking through pedestrians, 2 following the cycling on the pavement code of practice and 2 cycling the wrong way along one way streets. Difficult to imagine the outrage if a car driver did any of these. I'd imagine by the law of averages at least one would have had their number reported to the police. Cyclists can of course do this with impunity as there's nothing to identify them.

[Sergio sledge]

2 following the cycling on the pavement code of practice

As a cyclist and a driver I agree with you, but what do you mean by the above? It's illegal to cycle on the pavement and can result in a fixed penalty notice from the police.

[lapsedhibee]

Yesterday I witnessed 6 examples of really poor cycling. 2 went through red lights, one jinking through pedestrians, 2 following the cycling on the pavement code of practice and 2 cycling the wrong way along one way streets. Difficult to imagine the outrage if a car driver did any of these.

Cars and vans do this every single day in Union Street (off Leith Walk, opposite the Playhouse). There is no outrage. Stand at any city centre traffic lights during evening rush hour for long enough and you will see dozens of drivers go through red lights. Again there is no outrage.

[Jack]

As a cyclist and a driver I agree with you, but what do you mean by the above? It's illegal to cycle on the pavement and can result in a fixed penalty notice from the police.


Yes I know but that doesn't seem to stop so many of them thinking the pavement is theirs in the same way some drivers don't like cyclists on the road.

I appreciate what you're saying about a fixed penalty. Have you ever seen a cyclist getting spoken to for using the pavement, never mind a penalty notice, I haven't but I'd like to see a crackdown by the police on all these misdemeanours, I think a few weeks of fixed penalty notices would see the bad cyclists take more care.

[lapsedhibee]

Yes I know but that doesn't seem to stop so many of them thinking the pavement is theirs in the same way some drivers don't like cyclists on the road.
You might want to reconsider that comparison.



I appreciate what you're saying about a fixed penalty. Have you ever seen a cyclist getting spoken to for using the pavement, never mind a penalty notice, I haven't but I'd like to see a crackdown by the police on all these misdemeanours, I think a few weeks of fixed penalty notices would see the bad cyclists take more care.

Agree with that, and at the same time the polis could issue every driver they find parked in the orange cyclists' bit at traffic lights with a fixed penalty notice. Would raise an absolute fortune.

[Sergio sledge]

Yes I know but that doesn't seem to stop so many of them thinking the pavement is theirs in the same way some drivers don't like cyclists on the road.

I appreciate what you're saying about a fixed penalty. Have you ever seen a cyclist getting spoken to for using the pavement, never mind a penalty notice, I haven't but I'd like to see a crackdown by the police on all these misdemeanours, I think a few weeks of fixed penalty notices would see the bad cyclists take more care.

I was spoken to by police about riding on the pavement a few years ago just after they introduced fixed penalty notices for riding on the pavements. I haven't done it since. :greengrin

In mitigation, it was a 300 yard stretch of pavement between two cycle ways where the only other way to cycle between the two would be to cycle on dual carriageway. I could, of course, have got off my bike and pushed it the 300 yards but I couldn't be bothered.:greengrin

[lord bunberry]

You might want to reconsider that comparison.



Agree with that, and at the same time the polis could issue every driver they find parked in the orange cyclists' bit at traffic lights with a fixed penalty notice. Would raise an absolute fortune.

They should clamp down on motorists stopping in the cycle boxes at the lights, the number of times I've seen that happen and a bus can't get round the corner is unbelievable, it's also completely pointless, I don't understand why people do it.

[lapsedhibee]

They should clamp down on motorists stopping in the cycle boxes at the lights, the number of times I've seen that happen and a bus can't get round the corner is unbelievable, it's also completely pointless, I don't understand why people do it.

I think it's to make the point that roads are for cars, not bicycles, innitnot? :dunno:

[RyeSloan]

They should clamp down on motorists stopping in the cycle boxes at the lights, the number of times I've seen that happen and a bus can't get round the corner is unbelievable, it's also completely pointless, I don't understand why people do it.

Surely the box could also contain cyclists so if a bus can't turn because there is a car in the box does that signify that they would smash into any cyclist there instead?

A lot of the cycle boxes are pointless so I understand why some drivers start to ignore them.

There is an unsolvable issue here...in basic terms cyclists should not be sharing the se road space as heavy mechanised transport...for a long as they do there will be conflict.

[lapsedhibee]

Surely the box could also contain cyclists so if a bus can't turn because there is a car in the box does that signify that they would smash into any cyclist there instead?

Stationary cyclers can move sideways if required; cars can't.


A lot of the cycle boxes are pointless so I understand why some drivers start to ignore them.

Pointless? Do you mean because there are often no cyclers in them, or do you mean something else?


There is an unsolvable issue here...in basic terms cyclists should not be sharing the se road space as heavy mechanised transport...for a long as they do there will be conflict.
What do you suggest? Get the heaviest mechanised transport off the roads and on to the railways?

[Sergio sledge]

in basic terms cyclists should not be sharing the se road space as heavy mechanised transport

Why not?

[RyeSloan]

Why not?

For all the reasons on this thread.

Where possible the two are kept apart because one is a few kilos in weight and can do about 10mph with the occupant totally exposed and unprotected the other can be tonnes in weight with a top speed of 50+ and an occupant several feet in the air protected by a cab and multiple safety devices.

The best we can do is allow buses and bikes to share the same lane at times, the polar opposites of each other in the same space. If you were going to plan a road and cycle network from scratch I doubt that would be the idea adopted as most suitable.

[RyeSloan]

Stationary cyclers can move sideways if required; cars can't.


Pointless? Do you mean because there are often no cyclers in them, or do you mean something else?


What do you suggest? Get the heaviest mechanised transport off the roads and on to the railways?

If cyclers need to move then the road layout is wrong.

I think a lot of them are pointless....why do they need to be the whole width of the lane all the time?

Oh I wasn't suggesting it was feasible for them not to mix just that as the contraptions are so different in nature that as they are forced to share the same space then then there is always going to be conflict.

[CropleyWasGod]

For all the reasons on this thread.

Where possible the two are kept apart because one is a few kilos in weight and can do about 10mph with the occupant totally exposed and unprotected the other can be tonnes in weight with a top speed of 50+ and an occupant several feet in the air protected by a cab and multiple safety devices.

The best we can do is allow buses and bikes to share the same lane at times, the polar opposites of each other in the same space. If you were going to plan a road and cycle network from scratch I doubt that would be the idea adopted as most suitable.

As a cyclist, I actually feel relatively safe in a bus lane. It's a generalisation, but the more "professional" a driver is, I think the more care and respect is given to cyclists. Heavy lorries, buses, most black cabs, are well aware of the size and width of their vehicles..... and the all-important drag factor..... and take appropriate action. Let's face it, they're not going to risk their job just because a bike is holding them up. I wish i could say the same about non-professionals.

As for planning a road network, you're right. Up until a generation ago, we weren't really a cycling nation. We've had to bolt on cycle-lanes and such to what we already had, and the result is a helluva hotch-potch. In Edinburgh, we're lucky that we have the disused rail lines, but it's not the complete answer.

[Jack]

You might want to reconsider that comparison.

Why? (that's a nice why by the way)

The comparison was between 2 sets of people who know they're wrong but still think they're in the right.

The drivers who own the road because they pay 'road tax' and the cyclists just because they're cyclists and seem to think pedestrians will jump out the way because you will be hurt more than me if you don't get out the way. Like the well dressed gent on his bike charging down Lothian Road last night at about 8pm, really was ridiculous.

[Gatecrasher]

I think the layout of Edinburgh does no help at all, The streets are mostly old, narrow and badly layed out. Look at Lower Granton Road for example, It's a reasonable width but add in a line of parked cars on one side and its enough for cars to get by, add in busses and HGV's and watch the traffic build because there isn't enough room for them. Cyclists on the same road also cause traffic build up because cars cant get passed because of oncoming traffic. I would rather cycle to work but I work 25 miles from home making the car the only reasonable option for me. I have never come up against a rickshaw but they sound like a total pain in the arse to be honest, They sound as if they dont serve much purpose other than taking someone from A to B and there are already multiple options for doing that especially in the city centre.

I think it would be good for Edinburgh to have a proper cycle network, more and more people are going to do it as driving is becommng more expensive, and also for the safety of the cyclists and the blood preasure of drivers :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Why? (that's a nice why by the way)

The comparison was between 2 sets of people who know they're wrong but still think they're in the right.

The drivers who own the road because they pay 'road tax' and the cyclists just because they're cyclists and seem to think pedestrians will jump out the way because you will be hurt more than me if you don't get out the way. Like the well dressed gent on his bike charging down Lothian Road last night at about 8pm, really was ridiculous.

Certainly don't like to see well dressed people on bikes, that really is ridiculous! Shorts should be de rigeur, either baggies or lycra.

I don't think your comparison is good for two principal reasons:

(1) Mindset.
You can't discuss cycling in the company of drivers for more than about 40 seconds without someone claiming that "cyclists are dangerous". Not bad cyclists (who certainly can be dangerous) - they mean any and all cyclists. What I believe they mean is that cyclists are slower than car drivers and that drivers can't cope with being slowed down on their very very important missions to get to work or to get home, and since they've paid road tax for their road the cyclists should get out of their way and let them use it untrammelled. If they don't get out of the way drivers will have to make sure they are not slowed down anyway, using whatever manoeuvres are necessary to achieve this - manoeuvres which are often dangerous.
I don't think, on the other hand, you'll ever hear a cyclist say that "pedestrians are dangerous".

(2) Self-preservation.
In any physical conflict between motor vehicle and cyclist the cyclist will come off worse. In fact the driver will almost certainly be completely unaffected. In a conflict between a cyclist and pedestrian, however, both parties will likely be affected and the cyclist might well come off worse. Cyclists may cycle too close to pedestrians for comfort where space is shared, but they will inevitably take care not to hit a pedestrian for pure self-preservation reasons.

Shared space between different modes of transport undoubtedly requires compromises, and to that extent only it's fair to compare the drivers v cyclists situation with cyclists v pedestrians, but the sheer invulnerability of (say) lorry drivers means that the general comparison is not a sound one imo.

[Scouse Hibee]

Regularly see a cyclist going along the pavement in Lothian Road towing a trailer containing his two young children!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Regularly see a cyclist going along the pavement in Lothian Road towing a trailer containing his two young children!

I've seen a few of these, don't know how they can do it and not worry about the kids. Just not safe - unless cyclists get their own dedicated roads, like those in Holland.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I thought we had been here before (at least once).

Here's a thread from 2010 - http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?269948-Get-these-rickshaws-off-the-streets-of-Edinburgh!&highlight=rickshaws

Interesting that I was commenting on a death that had happened. As far as I know, that was the second one. Strange that 3 years on, people are still raising the same concerns.

[Sergio sledge]

Regularly see a cyclist going along the pavement in Lothian Road towing a trailer containing his two young children!

Scarily, I regularly see one of these on a bit of dual carriageway round Inverness. I've got kids and I cycle, but I wouldn't risk going on a dual carriageway myself let alone with my kids in a low trailer on the back.

Madness.

[Jack]

Certainly don't like to see well dressed people on bikes, that really is ridiculous! Shorts should be de rigeur, either baggies or lycra.

I don't think your comparison is good for two principal reasons:

(1) Mindset.
You can't discuss cycling in the company of drivers for more than about 40 seconds without someone claiming that "cyclists are dangerous". Not bad cyclists (who certainly can be dangerous) - they mean any and all cyclists. What I believe they mean is that cyclists are slower than car drivers and that drivers can't cope with being slowed down on their very very important missions to get to work or to get home, and since they've paid road tax for their road the cyclists should get out of their way and let them use it untrammelled. If they don't get out of the way drivers will have to make sure they are not slowed down anyway, using whatever manoeuvres are necessary to achieve this - manoeuvres which are often dangerous.
I don't think, on the other hand, you'll ever hear a cyclist say that "pedestrians are dangerous".

(2) Self-preservation.
In any physical conflict between motor vehicle and cyclist the cyclist will come off worse. In fact the driver will almost certainly be completely unaffected. In a conflict between a cyclist and pedestrian, however, both parties will likely be affected and the cyclist might well come off worse. Cyclists may cycle too close to pedestrians for comfort where space is shared, but they will inevitably take care not to hit a pedestrian for pure self-preservation reasons.

Shared space between different modes of transport undoubtedly requires compromises, and to that extent only it's fair to compare the drivers v cyclists situation with cyclists v pedestrians, but the sheer invulnerability of (say) lorry drivers means that the general comparison is not a sound one imo.

mmmmmmm ok :-)

[CropleyWasGod]

Here's a thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-23723866

[Scouse Hibee]

Here's a thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-23723866


Cyclists already get a head start by observing the junction sequence and set off before the lights have changed anyway.

[CropleyWasGod]

Cyclists already get a head start by observing the junction sequence and set off before the lights have changed anyway.

The bad ones do.

[Scouse Hibee]

The bad ones do.

Or the clever ones :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Or the clever ones :greengrin

I must be a daft one then :greengrin

Seriously, I can't do it. All it needs is for one driver trying to run the red light the other way.....

[heretoday]

I've seen a few of these, don't know how they can do it and not worry about the kids. Just not safe - unless cyclists get their own dedicated roads, like those in Holland.

Holland is truly fantastic. Big roads running along by the motorways and they are chocabloc with cyclists of all shapes and sizes. You don't see a lot of fat Dutch folk!

If they tried to do that here the roadworks would go on for about 100 years.

[Scouse Hibee]

I must be a daft one then :greengrin

Seriously, I can't do it. All it needs is for one driver trying to run the red light the other way.....


:agree: So common these days that I even find myself looking as I cross a junction in the car when the lights are for me.

[lapsedhibee]

:agree: So common these days that I even find myself looking as I cross a junction in the car when the lights are for me.

When I were a lad learning to drive, I was taught to do that anyway. A junction, traffic lights or not, is a hazard. (Or it was then.)

Same principle really as pedestrians who step on to the road when the wee green man shows, and don't look to see if the traffic has actually stopped. #deathwish

[Scouse Hibee]

When I were a lad learning to drive, I was taught to do that anyway. A junction, traffic lights or not, is a hazard. (Or it was then.)

I can't remember being taught that TBH but then it was a few years ago :greengrin

[J-C]

They have no insurance and don't pay road-tax plus as far as i'm aware, they don't have to pass any test to ride one, nor do they have to pass any test like the cabbies do. A nuisance is being kind to them.

All they need is a street traders licence, as said no insurance or MOT on bike etc, they're a bloody nuisance half the time as they are twice the size of a bike and much slower as they have a fixed gear. Only thing they're good for is keeping really really drunk people away from our cabs, if they didn't use them, they'd be in our cabs.

[lapsedhibee]

Totally unwarranted harassment of law-abiding citizens (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-23709915).

[RyeSloan]

Totally unwarranted harassment of law-abiding citizens (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-23709915).

Classic....wonder what the four words are!

[HiBremian]

Holland is truly fantastic. Big roads running along by the motorways and they are chocabloc with cyclists of all shapes and sizes. You don't see a lot of fat Dutch folk!

If they tried to do that here the roadworks would go on for about 100 years.

Also known as the Green New Deal to sort out the economy, climate change, obesity, congestion etc etc etc etc ;-)