Question for the oldies!

[GavinHarris 10]

Although not strictly hibs related, I have a question that maybe someone on here might be able to answer/talk about.

Since the passing of Laurie Reilly, I have thought about the famous five and the way they played football. I know that back in the day a 2-3-5 formation was played by teams and was a very attacking way to play football. I'd really like to know why this formation/strategy died out? Who the first team to play a modern formation (442,451,352)? What the roles of different players were? Any other information regarding football in this era would be greatly appreciated!

[Time For Heroes]

May be wrong but I was always told that the Italians changed it by using more "modern day tactics" might be miles off though...

[Glory Lurker]

Not sure how much it adds to things, but when Hungary destroyed England 6-3 at Wembley in 1953 I think they were playing 4-4-2, or at least something that was far removed from the "old" way of doing things. It was seismic. It's an incredible game to watch. You can kind of see what Hungary were doing as being related to what we do now. England, on the other hand were playing betamax football (in fairness, we would have done the same, too).

[G-Reg]

You should give the book in the link a look its pretty fascinating

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1890946524

[Time For Heroes]

Never really trust wikipedia but interesting read
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_(association_football)

[GavinHarris 10]

Thanks for the help lads. Greatly appreciated!

[Time For Heroes]

Dunno how much help I was but your welcome :D

[Septimus]

The inside forwards were the powerhouse of the 2,3,5 system and worked fore and aft so that they attacked and defended. I don't remember full backs ever coming up the pitch very far and large, rather pump men could be effective centre halves without moving very much at all.. The essence of the "famous five" was that the forward line changed about as required, a fluid and revolutionary trait which was attributed to a Tottenham team that came later. Lawrie Reilly was as comfortable on the wing as spearheading the attack and this ability was recognised by the Scottish selectors. Pity that the true worth of Gordon Smith was never fully recognised.

[Sanger]

Alf Ramsay killed it in early 60s with his England team playing 4-4-2 without wingers and flooding the midfield. After they won the World Cup the formation was copied globally.

[littleplum]

This is a great book about the evolution of football formations.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041

Also explains why no-one plays 3-5-2 anymore.

[Keith_M]

Weren't Alf Ramsey's team called the 'Wingless Wonders'? I always thought it was a combination of them and the Italians that changed the formations and tactics of the game.

The thing is, it was inevitable it had to change. Can you imagine any club trying 2-3-5 as a formation now? They'd get slaughtered.

[nonshinyfinish]

This is a great book about the evolution of football formations.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041

Also explains why no-one plays 3-5-2 anymore.

Fantastic book. :agree:

[Miguel]

Like any formation, 2-3-5 was only as good as the players involved. In general, it was just the latest in a succession of systems which, when used by successful teams, was adopted by others until other formations were devised to counter their strong points. To my mind, having done a bit of coaching, unless you have very technically gifted players, 4-4-2 provides the most stability and balance between attack and defence, without falling into the 'anti-football' of 4-5-1 (see Rangers 2008), or 6-4-0 by you know who for Scotland a couple of years back.

[ancient hibee]

After Johnstone went to Manchester City they played Don Revie as a "deep lying centre forward"with Johnstone pushed forward.Tommy Walker adopted it for Hearts in a 4-2-4 formation with Jimmy Wardaugh and Alex Young taking turns of playing in midfield and Hearts were unstoppable that season.Walker of course got pelters from Hearts fans and the press accused him of playing defensive football(record goal scorers needless to say-the press are always on top of things).

[jdships]

The inside forwards were the powerhouse of the 2,3,5 system and worked fore and aft so that they attacked and defended. I don't remember full backs ever coming up the pitch very far and large, rather pump men could be effective centre halves without moving very much at all.. The essence of the "famous five" was that the forward line changed about as required, a fluid and revolutionary trait which was attributed to a Tottenham team that came later. Lawrie Reilly was as comfortable on the wing as spearheading the attack and this ability was recognised by the Scottish selectors. Pity that the true worth of Gordon Smith was never fully recognised.


In the early 1950's our manager tried a "W" system
C/F , two wingers up front and 8 and 10 dropping in just behind " to provide the passes "
Was fine until late in the second half when the two wingers were knackered running up and down the park .:greengrin
Made for exciting football - but it was a case of " everything will be fine if we score more at that end than we let in at our end " ( managers words .)
As you rightly say fullbacks had a " nose bleed " if they came over the halfway line !!:wink:

[heretoday]

I understood it was Alf Ramsey with his Ipswich team who won the league against the odds in the early 60s.

[monktonharp]

I understood it was Alf Ramsey with his Ipswich team who won the league against the odds in the early 60s. I think Ramsey had a lot to do with the modern day set up, but the Italian clubs became the experts ,certainly in euro games by getting results away from home ,nil nil or scoring 1 then shutting down the game and they always a shower o' divin' gits, boring as f/ck but effective. even when channel 4 showed more recent Italian football it was like that, although they got good audience in the UK as a whole, before Sky took over.

[tamsonsbairn]

The system I remember most people were talking about was called the Cattanachio(might be the wrong name there), it was a system played by the Italians, also seem to remember it was a very defensive system. :pfgwa

[J-C]

Barca play with a very attacking formation 4-3-3 but when the wing backs went forward it turns to a 2-5-3 / 2-3-5 formation, they play without a real striker more like 3-4 attacking players.

[G-Reg]

The system I remember most people were talking about was called the Cattanachio(might be the wrong name there), it was a system played by the Italians, also seem to remember it was a very defensive system. :pfgwa

Correct!Catenaccio I'm sure it translates as "doorbolt" or "the chain" or something. Andy gray talks about it in his book that I mentioned earlier. p.s. I'm not his publisher or agent I just liked the book

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

I remember watching on in amazement from the old terracing one Saturday afternoon when Mixu just totally panicked and chucked 5 up front!lol They were all just crashing into each other and getting in the way! There was literally zero service to them due to us having about one midfielder. Can anyone remember who the 5 strikers were?

[Greentinted]

England v Hungary 1953. A joy to watch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMu5_2wHqUo

[Eyrie]

Quick thanks to those who recommended "Inverting The Pyramid". Ordered it on the strength of this thread and it's an excellent read.