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NeilOrrSquareBa
05-08-2013, 12:26 PM
Hibs Support

I’m 52 now.
When I was 15-18 years old I loved the Hibs support. I loved being part of it and I loved the fact we were far more learnered than our football supporting cousins from the west (including West Edinburgh) who were far more arranged along sectarian lines and couldn’t see the good in players that played for other teams. We knew we had a good team and we were happy to recognise good play from others when we saw it.

After segregation at matches came in (around the 1980’s) I began to see tribalism gather momentum at Easter Road. Chants stopped being about how good we were or about a favourite player and more about how much we hate the opposition, the players the management the fans and their families. To the point today that my 12 year old son speak about “casuals” and “kicking off “ and more disturbingly about “paedo’s” and “sex offenders”. Clearly society has issues and we’re stuck with it. I only hope I can temper my son’s excitable view that these sorts of chants are NOT acceptable behaviour in a civilised society.

The one thing I thought I’d be able to rely on was our fans’ having a sense of perspective and seeing things from different viewpoints not just rolling out the stock responses distilled by hack journalists who find it easier to write “5-1, 0-7, Nearly Falkirk. Or in a certain Mr Preston’s case given the platform of national radio to invest in his weekly Hibs baiting to the point where it is an “in joke” for the other “professional" journalists.

Hibs have been mediocre at best since about 1976.
McLeish bought “success” and gave me my favourite period as a Hibs fan watching Sauzee, Latapy, Zitelli et al. Mowbray tried to educate a sense of moral dignity into a squad of youthful players. Collins tried to make people change their culture overnight by strong arm tactics rather than wining their hearts and minds. Since then?

Paatelainen. Just didn’t go for him
Hughes. Thick as mince. “Sprinkle the fairy dust.” My ar*e!
Calderwood. Fraud!

Now Fenlon. Judging by the baying hounds on Hibs.net and the vocal hoardes at ER he’s a numpty! But for me he has brought several things to the club that merit him being given more time to turn things round.
Grit and determination – yes he has it. Certainly as a player he was renowned for his tenacity and spirit. He identified what was needed to keep us up and although he had to sign a new team in January to (just) do it. He got us to a cup final and despite what happened that day I cannot blame him beyond the (majority ) of the players that day who just “weren’t up for it” It’s his job to make sure they’re up for I hear you say. Well perspective lads. Semi final v Aberdeen (2 equally bad teams) we were tenacious and committed and won thanks to Leigh’s goal. Versus Hearts (2 mismatched teams) our players were physically and mentally intimidated and you know what happened.


Second season. Let’s hit the ground running. He got Cairney who’d been winning rave reviews for his PT performances. OK says we. He retained McPake. He got McGivern and Extended Griffiths stay. O’Connor came back to the club and for 6 months we were at the right end of the league. We knew we’d flattered to deceive. Some of our wins and draws were fortunate. After Xmas we went on a horrible run and barely got a point and in the end we just missed out on top 6 before finishing off the last 5 games unbeaten with a great win at Tynecastle.
Our team was not intimidated by a (granted) weakened Hearts side and we went unbeaten against them for the first season since 2000. Thanks to Fenlon.

We got to a final again albeit just.
Well beaten in the final and played win ourselves but our talismanic striker was goosed!. Tactics were questioned but our only goalscoring threat was goosed!

This season Fenlon talked about strengthening things to seek improvement. We had Europe to look forward to and our Edinburgh footballing cousins were in deep doo doo! So the signings we made failed to excite the fans yet we signed McGiven permanently. Kevin Thomson [who split the fins due to tribal loyalties and perceived disrespect] Fraser Mullins a young prospect discarded by Hearts, Vine and Collins. Progess on paper certainly.

“And now we’ve got a younger team I dinnae want to brag.
I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag.”

Malmo…oops! Banana skins have never been so big. Losing 0-7 at home is unacceptable and the players must be embarrassed. Fenlon must go!

Motherwell played better but were focussed more on spoiling Motherwell’s attacking opportunities rather than going for a win with an offensive formation. We bit the big one when they exposed our defensive fragilities! Boo say the Hibee hoardes Fenlon's not got it let him go. Fenlon;'s post match interview was routine enough. Said what he thougt and when pressed on the fans position made a decent point about what he thinks not mattering. He's hurtung as much as us and needs to get the players performing better . Tactically could he do more? We'll we have a dirth of creative players on the flanks (Cairney and Harris crocked) but he could set us up differently.

Is that enough to get rid of Fenlon? Not for me!
Give the guys some time and some support and I believe we’ll see true progress. For me he has tried to instil a sense of pride in the jersey (yes, despite the Malmo result) and he has tried to make us win from the back. Tactics need improvement (including substitutions) but he can work on that with Jimmy Nichol.

We’re not going to win the league when Celtic are there so it’s about being best of the rest. We’re quick to criticise and complain, point out perceived improvements from other clubs who shouldn’t be able to compete with us financially but seem to get one over on us when we play.

Support the team. I am fed up listening to people all round me criticise before they encourage. Encourage as much as you can it does help!

Hexham Hibee
05-08-2013, 12:34 PM
Great post. Especially the points about fans simply repeating what's said in the press and other media. Preston is a twat but some are daft enough to believe what he says about us. How he and Robbo get air time, particularly their anti-Hibs, anti-Fenlon tosh is beyond me.

Its time for some perspective and time as you said to back the team.

GGTTH

LongshanksED
05-08-2013, 12:36 PM
Everything you've said about Fenlon I've tried to pass onto others. You don't lead a team to 2 successive finals by being a bad manager. He started weeding out the bad eggs like O Connor and others who you believe behind closed changing room doors and in training were bringing the club down.

Even after Malmo I've been saying that he has to get at least 15 or so league games before decisions in whether to keep him or not. He's just brought in EIGHT new players over the summer. We can now say that it's his team. Give him the chance. The team he's been trying to build this season hasn't even had a proper run out yet, let alone a chance to work together

LongshanksED
05-08-2013, 12:37 PM
Great post. Especially the points about fans simply repeating what's said in the press and other media. Preston is a twat but some are daft enough to believe what he says about us. How he and Robbo get air time, particularly their anti-Hibs, anti-Fenlon tosh is beyond me.

Its time for some perspective and time as you said to back the team.

GGTTH

I actually quite like robbo on the radio, except when he's reporting on hearts games as his Jambi tinted glasses can't see further or any wrong in his team.

Suburban Hibby
05-08-2013, 12:39 PM
Hibs Support

I’m 52 now.
When I was 15-18 years old I loved the Hibs support. I loved being part of it and I loved the fact we were far more learnered than our football supporting cousins from the west (including West Edinburgh) who were far more arranged along sectarian lines and couldn’t see the good in players that played for other teams. We knew we had a good team and we were happy to recognise good play from others when we saw it.

After segregation at matches came in (around the 1980’s) I began to see tribalism gather momentum at Easter Road. Chants stopped being about how good we were or about a favourite player and more about how much we hate the opposition, the players the management the fans and their families. To the point today that my 12 year old son speak about “casuals” and “kicking off “ and more disturbingly about “paedo’s” and “sex offenders”. Clearly society has issues and we’re stuck with it. I only hope I can temper my son’s excitable view that these sorts of chants are NOT acceptable behaviour in a civilised society.

The one thing I thought I’d be able to rely on was our fans’ having a sense of perspective and seeing things from different viewpoints not just rolling out the stock responses distilled by hack journalists who find it easier to write “5-1, 0-7, Nearly Falkirk. Or in a certain Mr Preston’s case given the platform of national radio to invest in his weekly Hibs baiting to the point where it is an “in joke” for the other “professional" journalists.

Hibs have been mediocre at best since about 1976.
McLeish bought “success” and gave me my favourite period as a Hibs fan watching Sauzee, Latapy, Zitelli et al. Mowbray tried to educate a sense of moral dignity into a squad of youthful players. Collins tried to make people change their culture overnight by strong arm tactics rather than wining their hearts and minds. Since then?

Paatelainen. Just didn’t go for him
Hughes. Thick as mince. “Sprinkle the fairy dust.” My ar*e!
Calderwood. Fraud!

Now Fenlon. Judging by the baying hounds on Hibs.net and the vocal hoardes at ER he’s a numpty! But for me he has brought several things to the club that merit him being given more time to turn things round.
Grit and determination – yes he has it. Certainly as a player he was renowned for his tenacity and spirit. He identified what was needed to keep us up and although he had to sign a new team in January to (just) do it. He got us to a cup final and despite what happened that day I cannot blame him beyond the (majority ) of the players that day who just “weren’t up for it” It’s his job to make sure they’re up for I hear you say. Well perspective lads. Semi final v Aberdeen (2 equally bad teams) we were tenacious and committed and won thanks to Leigh’s goal. Versus Hearts (2 mismatched teams) our players were physically and mentally intimidated and you know what happened.


Second season. Let’s hit the ground running. He got Cairney who’d been winning rave reviews for his PT performances. OK says we. He retained McPake. He got McGivern and Extended Griffiths stay. O’Connor came back to the club and for 6 months we were at the right end of the league. We knew we’d flattered to deceive. Some of our wins and draws were fortunate. After Xmas we went on a horrible run and barely got a point and in the end we just missed out on top 6 before finishing off the last 5 games unbeaten with a great win at Tynecastle.
Our team was not intimidated by a (granted) weakened Hearts side and we went unbeaten against them for the first season since 2000. Thanks to Fenlon.

We got to a final again albeit just.
Well beaten in the final and played win ourselves but our talismanic striker was goosed!. Tactics were questioned but our only goalscoring threat was goosed!

This season Fenlon talked about strengthening things to seek improvement. We had Europe to look forward to and our Edinburgh footballing cousins were in deep doo doo! So the signings we made failed to excite the fans yet we signed McGiven permanently. Kevin Thomson [who split the fins due to tribal loyalties and perceived disrespect] Fraser Mullins a young prospect discarded by Hearts, Vine and Collins. Progess on paper certainly.

“And now we’ve got a younger team I dinnae want to brag.
I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag.”

Malmo…oops! Banana skins have never been so big. Losing 0-7 at home is unacceptable and the players must be embarrassed. Fenlon must go!

Motherwell played better but were focussed more on spoiling Motherwell’s attacking opportunities rather than going for a win with an offensive formation. We bit the big one when they exposed our defensive fragilities! Boo say the Hibee hoardes Fenlon's not got it let him go. Fenlon;'s post match interview was routine enough. Said what he thougt and when pressed on the fans position made a decent point about what he thinks not mattering. He's hurtung as much as us and needs to get the players performing better . Tactically could he do more? We'll we have a dirth of creative players on the flanks (Cairney and Harris crocked) but he could set us up differently.

Is that enough to get rid of Fenlon? Not for me!
Give the guys some time and some support and I believe we’ll see true progress. For me he has tried to instil a sense of pride in the jersey (yes, despite the Malmo result) and he has tried to make us win from the back. Tactics need improvement (including substitutions) but he can work on that with Jimmy Nichol.

We’re not going to win the league when Celtic are there so it’s about being best of the rest. We’re quick to criticise and complain, point out perceived improvements from other clubs who shouldn’t be able to compete with us financially but seem to get one over on us when we play.

Support the team. I am fed up listening to people all round me criticise before they encourage. Encourage as much as you can it does help!

Very well put mate, tend to agree with you.

Liberal Hibby
05-08-2013, 12:40 PM
Well said. And remember some of the most negative posts about Fenlon and Hibs aren't from real supporters.

ehf
05-08-2013, 12:40 PM
Admire your optimisim (and the resilience of your typing fingers) but totally disagree. Setting up for a nil-nil draw at home to Motherwell in the first game of the season is simply unacceptable in my book. Despite all the signings we have a team totally lacking in pace, creativity, any sort of game plan and any winning mentality. Fenlon has the tactical nous of a mollusc - McCall must have been laughing at how easy it was to win yesterday's game with a simple double substitution at the right time.

woody0-7
05-08-2013, 12:44 PM
Far far to much sense in these posts!this won't do at all lads :-)

JimBHibees
05-08-2013, 12:45 PM
Admire your optimisim (and the resilience of your typing fingers) but totally disagree. Setting up for a nil-nil draw at home to Motherwell in the first game of the season is simply unacceptable in my book. Despite all the signings we have a team totally lacking in pace, creativity, any sort of game plan and any winning mentality. Fenlon has the tactical nous of a mollusc - McCall must have been laughing at how easy it was to win yesterday's game with a simple double substitution at the right time.

That easy they only scored after 80 mins with a poorly defended ball.

hibsbollah
05-08-2013, 12:48 PM
...but we're worse than we fear we aren't. Or is that a triple negative. I'm confused myself now :dunno:

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 12:48 PM
Admire your optimisim (and the resilience of your typing fingers) but totally disagree. Setting up for a nil-nil draw at home to Motherwell in the first game of the season is simply unacceptable in my book. Despite all the signings we have a team totally lacking in pace, creativity, any sort of game plan and any winning mentality. Fenlon has the tactical nous of a mollusc - McCall must have been laughing at how easy it was to win yesterday's game with a simple double substitution at the right time.

Agree 100% with this. We may not be as good as we like to think we are but we shouldn't be as bad as we are under PF.

NAE NOOKIE
05-08-2013, 12:50 PM
Well said. And remember some of the most negative posts about Fenlon and Hibs aren't from real supporters.

Not sure what that is supposed to mean?

I am beginning to get a squeaky bum with regards to Fenlon after being in the give him as much time as possible camp. The results against the Yams in the cup final and the Malmo game notwithstanding which have severely dented the standing of Hibs as a club I was hoping for a reaction on Sunday, which just didnt come ... we played like an away team .. or at least I hope that was the tactics rather than just a sadly inept lack of ability to move the ball in a forward direction with guile and purpose.

Treadstone
05-08-2013, 12:51 PM
Fenlons been poor from day one and apart from the first half of last season downright rotten. If the team had carried the form of the early part of 12/13 no one would be questioning the manager. They didn't and on his record he is fair game. PF got less points per game in 11/12 than CC did. So any reasoning that he 'saved us from relegation' is wide of the mark.
Tactically he is inept and his default option is defend in numbers. He received a lot of goodwill from the fans and has slowly burnt it all. Time to go.

LongshanksED
05-08-2013, 12:51 PM
Admire your optimisim (and the resilience of your typing fingers) but totally disagree. Setting up for a nil-nil draw at home to Motherwell in the first game of the season is simply unacceptable in.

Not disparaging what your saying but it's a no win situation for Fenlon at the moment with everyone's different opinion. Fenlon is slated after Malmo (rightly) for playing 4-4-2 as "No one plays 4-4-2" anymore

He sets up a more winger/fullback formation for motherwell (and in the frat half we contained them very well and had the better of the game at that point) and slated again for not playing 2 strikers and having a more attacking style.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

clerriehibs
05-08-2013, 12:52 PM
Hibs Support

I’m 52 now.

Great post ... but Neil Orr as a user name?!?!

I'm of more more less your era. The nastiness was there when I was at school, as it would have been with you too, no doubt. That was probably down to the edge we'd had over them for 15+ years. But you could have a football discussion with our arch neighbour/enemy, something that doesn't seem possible anymore. I blame the internet ... no, I don't, because I can still talk football with any other supporters, other than our near neighbours. So, I blame romanov ... no, I don't, he's just a tool, that our bitter/twisted neighbours have found and used.

Since I can remember, they have only been about beating Hibs, or completing a season better than we have. It might be a rubbish mentality, but look what it began to do for their psychological edge .. it's been their focus. And, in the main, it worked. They did have a bit of an advantage. But that was all pre-meltdown.

Maybe that should be our focus? Beat them, nothing else matters, then see what else pans out?

No. Ultimately, that cost them their good name, and possibly cost them their club. I don't want us to ever be there. Let's just be what we've always been ... Hibs.

I'd rather be a Hibby, with all that that entails.

Cocohibby
05-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Here here.

I don't think the tactics were poor against Motherwell. We started very well and with a high line, pressing their deep players in possession and not giving them too much time on the ball. In the 1st 20 mins I thought we were looking good. Yes, we dropped deeper later in the game and allowed Motherwell to stroke it about a bit but I thought in general the midfield did well in stifling their threat and protecting our defenders - Thompson and Robertson in particular had good games and worked hard - they were burst midway through the 2nd half, something which will improve after a few games.

It is true we did not create much ourselves but for 70 minutes we made it difficult for Motherwell to break us down (a big improvement on last year's 2-3 game at ER where we looked like a horror show for the entire 2nd half). For the most part I thought our passing was better than for quite a while. With LG outlet gone, others inevitably will have to step up in the creativity department but I think we'll be ok.

I saw enough on Sunday to think we have made progress and there is nothing to be gained from punting our manager again. I predict a win at Tynecastle.

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 12:56 PM
I'd love to have everyone 100% behind the team. But what your post fails go say is, he's just a poor manager. No agenda no abuse, he tried but his tactics or should I say lack of has been his downfall not the fans. We can all clap and cheer for 90 mins but that doesn't change his team set up.

I agree about the abuse against other players and teams. It gets a bit much.

Gustavo Fring
05-08-2013, 12:56 PM
Everything you've said about Fenlon I've tried to pass onto others. You don't lead a team to 2 successive finals by being a bad manager.


fenlon didnt lead us to 2 cup finals . leigh griffiths carried us to hampden both times

Hibercelona
05-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Good post. Although i'd say the "reporters" copy what we say, not the other way around. :wink:

It's true that he scraped us to 2 finals. But those 2 finals also lead to 2 of the most humiliating games for this club in a very long time. The game that must not be spoken and of course the Malmo game that we got entry to for making it to another final.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try and get to finals. But its just extremely frustrating that we can show enough to scrape through each round, but can't show anything at all when it comes to the game that matters most of all.

We need to realize that we can't approach finals in the same way that we approach the other games in each round. It's a different ball game altogether in a final. You can be sure that the opposition team would be studying our tactics very very closely. So relying on the exact same tactics in a final is always doomed to failure. Any manager should know this at any level.

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Everything you've said about Fenlon I've tried to pass onto others. You don't lead a team to 2 successive finals by being a bad manager. He started weeding out the bad eggs like O Connor and others who you believe behind closed changing room doors and in training were bringing the club down.

Even after Malmo I've been saying that he has to get at least 15 or so league games before decisions in whether to keep him or not. He's just brought in EIGHT new players over the summer. We can now say that it's his team. Give him the chance. The team he's been trying to build this season hasn't even had a proper run out yet, let alone a chance to work together

Personally I don't think we can afford that

MB62
05-08-2013, 12:58 PM
If there was a 7/10 smillie I would have put that in but 7 out of ten for those comments anyway, in as much as that's about the percentage I agree with you on.
I must be one of the few that walked away yesterday thinking, 'that wasn't as bad as I thought it might have been'.
Now whether that's a sign of improvement from the team or a sign of just how low we have sunk recently is debateable but whatever it is, I felt there were things to be encouarged about.

I think Mullins is going to be a very good right back, I like that laddie already.
Nelson was exactly what I want my centre half to be, a big lad that wins his headers, doesn't get pushed around and knows when to just hoof the ball to clear his lines.

Kevin Thomson, a guy I said last week was a waste of a good wage, was outstanding yesterday and if he can improve his fitness (they ALL desperately need to do that BTW) and continue to produce performances like that then I will happily be wrong on my first opinion.

I thought Robertson did well yesterday too and at least tried to get forward, again I think he could be a good player for us.

OTJ I thought started well but tired towards the end and I would have hooked him before Thomson.

Liam Craig has been the opposite of Thomson for me. He is a guy I thought was going to be a great signing for us but has so far hardly kicked a ball. Both games I have seen him though, he was been played out of his best position, IMO, so happy to give him time too.

Collins tried like 'eff' yesterday, gave his all and was obviously frustrated at the lack of support from his team mates. Partner him up front with Vine and we might just be asking 'Leigh Who' in six months time (aye, ok getting a bit carried away there). I genuinely believe though that these two could be very good for us IF the manager partners them up.

As mentioned, I really think our players need to work on their fitness levels, personal pride and ambition in the game should be enough for the players to be asking for extra work, or better still, get back in that gym and start working out yourselves.

Barring Griffiths and Claros, I think we might actually be a better team than at the same time last year, whether P.F. is the man to get the best out of them though is very much open to question.

Liberal Hibby
05-08-2013, 01:02 PM
Not sure what that is supposed to mean?

I am beginning to get a squeaky bum with regards to Fenlon after being in the give him as much time as possible camp. The results against the Yams in the cup final and the Malmo game notwithstanding which have severely dented the standing of Hibs as a club I was hoping for a reaction on Sunday, which just didnt come ... we played like an away team .. or at least I hope that was the tactics rather than just a sadly inept lack of ability to move the ball in a forward direction with guile and purpose.

It's just that when we lose a number of posters come out of the woodwork who are conspicuous by their absence when we're doing well. If you supported say, Hearts, boosting the numbers wanting the Hibs manager sacked is good sport and helps to undermine your rivals.

Hopefully the board is discounting this and giving Fenlon at least until the first round of fixtures are complete to get a more realistic view of where we stand and if we are making progress.

Gordy M
05-08-2013, 01:07 PM
Really good post mate and agree with a lot that you have said, especially the bit about hibs fans coveting other teams and managers, whilst critisizing our own at the drop of a hat. I mean kenny shiels??? Ffs fenlons team hammered them last season in the cup and beat them in the league, and now some want him as manager?? Jimmy calderwood had the most negative aberdeen team ive ever seen at easter road??

However, unfortunately i think pf has a thankless task convincing some of the fans now and prob should move on. Instead of getting to two successive cup finals and europe, which is a great acheivement imo, he would have been better, finishing 5th then 4th in the league and put out the cup at the earlier rounds. I doubt he would have come in for the same critisism.

In a way i feel slightly sorry for pf, in two years he has got us to two sc finals and europe and after calderwood most would have taken that!? However in the big games we have been well beaten and thats what is remembered. As i said he would have come in for less critisism had he finished top six both years and got to no finals and no europe.

Fergus52
05-08-2013, 01:11 PM
fenlon didnt lead us to 2 cup finals . leigh griffiths carried us to hampden both times

You clearly weren't at many of the games in either cup run then.

underscore
05-08-2013, 01:11 PM
His inability to change a team during play is staggering. We have the players to beat almost every team in the league. Motherwell had almost nothing against us and we still somehow managed to get beat. That was 100% down to Fenlon and his unique ability to stop his own team playing football.

Gustavo Fring
05-08-2013, 01:13 PM
You clearly weren't at many of the games in either cup run then.

i was at them all last year bar the final , and 3 of them this year including the semi final .

without griffiths we wouldnt have made either of those finals and you know it

Gordy M
05-08-2013, 01:15 PM
His inability to change a team during play is staggering. We have the players to beat almost every team in the league. Motherwell had almost nothing against us and we still somehow managed to get beat. That was 100% down to Fenlon and his unique ability to stop his own team playing football.

Ive read this a few times mate about fenlon stopping his own team playing football. Can you explain this to me? Are you saying he is deliberately telling the likes of harris craig and robertson not to get forward when they can??

Treadstone
05-08-2013, 01:18 PM
However, unfortunately i think pf has a thankless task convincing some of the fans now and prob should move on. Instead of getting to two successive cup finals and europe, which is a great acheivement imo, he would have been better, finishing 5th then 4th in the league and put out the cup at the earlier rounds. I doubt he would have come in for the same critisism.



Of course he wouldn't have come in for the same criticism if he had finished fourth or fifth as that would have constituted better results throughout the season.

DH1875
05-08-2013, 01:18 PM
So should we just all live in the past? No, we're not as good as we'd like to think, but WE SHOULD BE. No disrespect but throughout most of your time following hibs we've had to compete against strong teams. rangers and the yams are now out of the picture and yet we're content getting beat of the likes of Motherwell, St Johnstone and ICT (duck me. ICT weren't even about 20 years ago).

Motherwell played better but were focussed more on spoiling Motherwell’s attacking opportunities rather than going for a win with an offensive formation. We bit the big one when they exposed our defensive fragilities! Boo say the Hibee hoardes Fenlon's not got it let him go.

Do you think setting up not to get beat at home on the first day of the season is acceptable? It was Motherwell FFS, not Real Madrid. In all your time following Hibs were Motherwell a team of world beaters? If they can build a team that can compete then why can't we? Simple economics will tell you we should. In fact we should be well ahead of them, not kitting ourselves at the prospect of playing them.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 01:19 PM
Hibs Support

I’m 52 now.
When I was 15-18 years old I loved the Hibs support. I loved being part of it and I loved the fact we were far more learnered than our football supporting cousins from the west (including West Edinburgh) who were far more arranged along sectarian lines and couldn’t see the good in players that played for other teams. We knew we had a good team and we were happy to recognise good play from others when we saw it.

After segregation at matches came in (around the 1980’s) I began to see tribalism gather momentum at Easter Road. Chants stopped being about how good we were or about a favourite player and more about how much we hate the opposition, the players the management the fans and their families. To the point today that my 12 year old son speak about “casuals” and “kicking off “ and more disturbingly about “paedo’s” and “sex offenders”. Clearly society has issues and we’re stuck with it. I only hope I can temper my son’s excitable view that these sorts of chants are NOT acceptable behaviour in a civilised society.

The one thing I thought I’d be able to rely on was our fans’ having a sense of perspective and seeing things from different viewpoints not just rolling out the stock responses distilled by hack journalists who find it easier to write “5-1, 0-7, Nearly Falkirk. Or in a certain Mr Preston’s case given the platform of national radio to invest in his weekly Hibs baiting to the point where it is an “in joke” for the other “professional" journalists.

Hibs have been mediocre at best since about 1976.
McLeish bought “success” and gave me my favourite period as a Hibs fan watching Sauzee, Latapy, Zitelli et al. Mowbray tried to educate a sense of moral dignity into a squad of youthful players. Collins tried to make people change their culture overnight by strong arm tactics rather than wining their hearts and minds. Since then?

Paatelainen. Just didn’t go for him
Hughes. Thick as mince. “Sprinkle the fairy dust.” My ar*e!
Calderwood. Fraud!

Now Fenlon. Judging by the baying hounds on Hibs.net and the vocal hoardes at ER he’s a numpty! But for me he has brought several things to the club that merit him being given more time to turn things round.
Grit and determination – yes he has it. Certainly as a player he was renowned for his tenacity and spirit. He identified what was needed to keep us up and although he had to sign a new team in January to (just) do it. He got us to a cup final and despite what happened that day I cannot blame him beyond the (majority ) of the players that day who just “weren’t up for it” It’s his job to make sure they’re up for I hear you say. Well perspective lads. Semi final v Aberdeen (2 equally bad teams) we were tenacious and committed and won thanks to Leigh’s goal. Versus Hearts (2 mismatched teams) our players were physically and mentally intimidated and you know what happened.


Second season. Let’s hit the ground running. He got Cairney who’d been winning rave reviews for his PT performances. OK says we. He retained McPake. He got McGivern and Extended Griffiths stay. O’Connor came back to the club and for 6 months we were at the right end of the league. We knew we’d flattered to deceive. Some of our wins and draws were fortunate. After Xmas we went on a horrible run and barely got a point and in the end we just missed out on top 6 before finishing off the last 5 games unbeaten with a great win at Tynecastle.
Our team was not intimidated by a (granted) weakened Hearts side and we went unbeaten against them for the first season since 2000. Thanks to Fenlon.

We got to a final again albeit just.
Well beaten in the final and played win ourselves but our talismanic striker was goosed!. Tactics were questioned but our only goalscoring threat was goosed!

This season Fenlon talked about strengthening things to seek improvement. We had Europe to look forward to and our Edinburgh footballing cousins were in deep doo doo! So the signings we made failed to excite the fans yet we signed McGiven permanently. Kevin Thomson [who split the fins due to tribal loyalties and perceived disrespect] Fraser Mullins a young prospect discarded by Hearts, Vine and Collins. Progess on paper certainly.

“And now we’ve got a younger team I dinnae want to brag.
I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag.”

Malmo…oops! Banana skins have never been so big. Losing 0-7 at home is unacceptable and the players must be embarrassed. Fenlon must go!

Motherwell played better but were focussed more on spoiling Motherwell’s attacking opportunities rather than going for a win with an offensive formation. We bit the big one when they exposed our defensive fragilities! Boo say the Hibee hoardes Fenlon's not got it let him go. Fenlon;'s post match interview was routine enough. Said what he thougt and when pressed on the fans position made a decent point about what he thinks not mattering. He's hurtung as much as us and needs to get the players performing better . Tactically could he do more? We'll we have a dirth of creative players on the flanks (Cairney and Harris crocked) but he could set us up differently.

Is that enough to get rid of Fenlon? Not for me!
Give the guys some time and some support and I believe we’ll see true progress. For me he has tried to instil a sense of pride in the jersey (yes, despite the Malmo result) and he has tried to make us win from the back. Tactics need improvement (including substitutions) but he can work on that with Jimmy Nichol.

We’re not going to win the league when Celtic are there so it’s about being best of the rest. We’re quick to criticise and complain, point out perceived improvements from other clubs who shouldn’t be able to compete with us financially but seem to get one over on us when we play.

Support the team. I am fed up listening to people all round me criticise before they encourage. Encourage as much as you can it does help!

fantastic post born a Hi-Bee and I will die a Hi-Bee!!!!!! I believe PF needs more time and I can see what he has done, and I want him to have more time, unbeaten against Hearts is enough to keep me happy as first time since 2000. I believe he will come good, mon the Hibs

soproni1
05-08-2013, 01:20 PM
You could see yesterday that when we got the ball into forward areas with Robertson and Collins in particular that we have players who can create chances, and this was without Vine and Cairney, and Harris and Craig being quite quiet by their own standards.

the problem with PF is where he sets his teams up, not the shape of them. We were clearly playing 10 yards too far back at times yesterday and at one point in the 2nd half the whole crowd was trying to point it out to him.

The calibre of players we have, particularly from middle to front should be able to win us games and did in the 1st part of last season when we did seem to play a bit further forward (although the front 4 from that period of Spoon, Cairney, Griffiths and Doyle were absent) and with more players in the opposition 3rd!

If Fenlon went tomorrow i would not be too fussed but i would rather he made the one simple adjustment that most fans are asking for and just tried to win most of our games by scoring goals and not by stopping them and having sparky fire in a wonder goal (which, worryingly, cant happen now!!!!)

underscore
05-08-2013, 01:25 PM
Ive read this a few times mate about fenlon stopping his own team playing football. Can you explain this to me? Are you saying he is deliberately telling the likes of harris craig and robertson not to get forward when they can??

100% I counted at least 6 times during the game Collins collected a ball and looked to lay it off. No one even tried to support him. Its was a flat 5 in midfield with no support for Collins. Fenlon put a team out to not lose the midfield, try and keep a clean sheet, then maybe steal a goal from a corner. AND thats all fine against a good team (like Malmo - which he didnt do). BUT against a poor Motherwell team its a sin.

If you can see after a first 45 mins that the system isnt working and that no-one is supporting Collins you either change it or (which i think is the case) you say "well done lads - you're working hard and keeping it nice and tight. stick in and we might just nick one"

He has bought a decent squad of players now but appears to have no idea how to use them.

oregonhibby
05-08-2013, 01:27 PM
I am not sure sacking another manager will necessarily help matters in any case. Some stability has been required for some time now, even if it is to make sure the Club actually pays wages for playing and not in compensation for early exits. The more effective "playing" wage bill the better team we will have.

I am also of the same vintage as the original poster and I agree that despite some bright spots along the way we have been in decline since 1976 at which time we had arguably our best manager since Hugh Shaw in ET.

What I saw yesterday - with a number of first choices absent - was an improvement on last seasons worst run, and indeed better than the last 5 games of the regular season. It wasn't exciting, it wasn't stylish but it was an improvement.

The new centre back looked solid but having signed only a few days before it was inevitable that one or two would get through and the goal - not his fault - proved to be the case.

Jimmy Nichol will undoubtedly help the situation and the embarrassing results are just those, embarrassing, but we have been there before.

If we want to spend money on players like Hearts did we all better dig deeper because the Club won't. Fenlon has shown one thing and that he has the grit and determination to keep going until relieved of his post - he will work his hardest but he knows that results will either come his way or he will fall. At that point the whole circus starts again -

Transition
Players paid off
Management team changed and compensated
"Effective" player budget reduced, and
No guarantees it will be any better.

Just my view, having seen how bad it can get in the 80's!

Gordy M
05-08-2013, 01:30 PM
Of course he wouldn't have come in for the same criticism if he had finished fourth or fifth as that would have constituted better results throughout the season.

Yep but wouldn't have got us to europe and wouldn't have had two finals(albeit they were horrible)? It depends how you qualify a good season. i see a lot if posts saying we should be top four and at least the semi finals of the cups, but when pfs record in the cups is mentioned it just gets dismissed??

Last year we won more games than dundee utd, and same as ross co and ict in the league, and if u include the cups we won more games than all those teams and also st j. I do know we were prob playing worse teams after the split than those teams mentioned however its still games won.

Jones28
05-08-2013, 01:33 PM
When it's put like that its hard to argue with it. Good post :agree:

However, I don't want Hibs to be the kind of team that sets up at home not to lose. Seems silly but we have the quality to play football. Craig and Thomson are decent footballers, they can pass and pick out through balls. We should have lined up as a 4-4-2 with 2 strikers at home in the first game of the season. If we had played good football, threatened the Motherwell goal a few times and given us cause to think this is to be a promising season then defeat would be much more bearable.

jacomo
05-08-2013, 01:42 PM
Great OP.

But the problem with Fenlon is that he's not given us belief, or something to buy into, other than a vague "Hibs won't roll over again" following the 2012 Scottish Cup Final debacle... although that's not how it's panned out, is it?

So instead, we live in fear of another tanking, without having the hope and expectation to go with it. Mowbray's team got mauled by Hearts in a Scottish Cup SF but we had seen plenty of highs to counterpoint the lows.

Pat's had the best part of two seasons now - where is the big idea? Where is the team? The squad seems to have more quality but why isn't it gelling? I honestly think Mixu showed us more - and he got the boot.

PF seemed a bit overwhelmed when he first arrived, the job was too big for him and he made plenty of mistakes. If he was going to succeed as Hibs manager it was clear he needed to grow into the role... but I now doubt this is going to happen.

Hibernia&Alba
05-08-2013, 01:43 PM
A well thought out OP, IMHO, which contains a number of valid points. I agree we need to stay calm just now and try not to call for the manager's head each time we're going through a bad spell. God knows we're accustomed to bad spells! I said after the Malmo game that I favoured giving Fenlon the first half dozen or so league games then looking at the situation, and I voted against his sacking on the forum poll. However, there are limits to all things, and Pat is now under serious scrutiny from almost everyone. As I said in another thread this morning, it's now do or die for the manager. A bad defeat at Hearts next weekend, considering their current situation, would probably mean the end of him, and I wouldn't be able to argue against it. We must see some improvement over the next few weeks. I accept we're missing some key players through injury, but we have a squad for a reason and we need to see the green shoots of recovery - pun intended. We're all restless, many of us want to give Pat every chance to succeed, but we want our faith re-paid by seeing his tenure really kick on now.

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 01:43 PM
Yep but wouldn't have got us to europe and wouldn't have had two finals(albeit they were horrible)? It depends how you qualify a good season. i see a lot if posts saying we should be top four and at least the semi finals of the cups, but when pfs record in the cups is mentioned it just gets dismissed??

Last year we won more games than dundee utd, and same as ross co and ict in the league, and if u include the cups we won more games than all those teams and also st j. I do know we were prob playing worse teams after the split than those teams mentioned however its still games won.

How did our European run go? Also not much point getting to the final if you're going to play to avoid a doing like we did against Celtic.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 01:44 PM
I am not sure sacking another manager will necessarily help matters in any case. Some stability has been required for some time now, even if it is to make sure the Club actually pays wages for playing and not in compensation for early exits. The more effective "playing" wage bill the better team we will have.

I am also of the same vintage as the original poster and I agree that despite some bright spots along the way we have been in decline since 1976 at which time we had arguably our best manager since Hugh Shaw in ET.

What I saw yesterday - with a number of first choices absent - was an improvement on last seasons worst run, and indeed better than the last 5 games of the regular season. It wasn't exciting, it wasn't stylish but it was an improvement.

The new centre back looked solid but having signed only a few days before it was inevitable that one or two would get through and the goal - not his fault - proved to be the case.

Jimmy Nichol will undoubtedly help the situation and the embarrassing results are just those, embarrassing, but we have been there before.

If we want to spend money on players like Hearts did we all better dig deeper because the Club won't. Fenlon has shown one thing and that he has the grit and determination to keep going until relieved of his post - he will work his hardest but he knows that results will either come his way or he will fall. At that point the whole circus starts again -

Transition
Players paid off
Management team changed and compensated
"Effective" player budget reduced, and
No guarantees it will be any better.

Just my view, having seen how bad it can get in the 80's!
well said!!

Andy74
05-08-2013, 01:52 PM
Hibs Support

I’m 52 now.
When I was 15-18 years old I loved the Hibs support. I loved being part of it and I loved the fact we were far more learnered than our football supporting cousins from the west (including West Edinburgh) who were far more arranged along sectarian lines and couldn’t see the good in players that played for other teams. We knew we had a good team and we were happy to recognise good play from others when we saw it.

After segregation at matches came in (around the 1980’s) I began to see tribalism gather momentum at Easter Road. Chants stopped being about how good we were or about a favourite player and more about how much we hate the opposition, the players the management the fans and their families. To the point today that my 12 year old son speak about “casuals” and “kicking off “ and more disturbingly about “paedo’s” and “sex offenders”. Clearly society has issues and we’re stuck with it. I only hope I can temper my son’s excitable view that these sorts of chants are NOT acceptable behaviour in a civilised society.

The one thing I thought I’d be able to rely on was our fans’ having a sense of perspective and seeing things from different viewpoints not just rolling out the stock responses distilled by hack journalists who find it easier to write “5-1, 0-7, Nearly Falkirk. Or in a certain Mr Preston’s case given the platform of national radio to invest in his weekly Hibs baiting to the point where it is an “in joke” for the other “professional" journalists.

Hibs have been mediocre at best since about 1976.
McLeish bought “success” and gave me my favourite period as a Hibs fan watching Sauzee, Latapy, Zitelli et al. Mowbray tried to educate a sense of moral dignity into a squad of youthful players. Collins tried to make people change their culture overnight by strong arm tactics rather than wining their hearts and minds. Since then?

Paatelainen. Just didn’t go for him
Hughes. Thick as mince. “Sprinkle the fairy dust.” My ar*e!
Calderwood. Fraud!

Now Fenlon. Judging by the baying hounds on Hibs.net and the vocal hoardes at ER he’s a numpty! But for me he has brought several things to the club that merit him being given more time to turn things round.
Grit and determination – yes he has it. Certainly as a player he was renowned for his tenacity and spirit. He identified what was needed to keep us up and although he had to sign a new team in January to (just) do it. He got us to a cup final and despite what happened that day I cannot blame him beyond the (majority ) of the players that day who just “weren’t up for it” It’s his job to make sure they’re up for I hear you say. Well perspective lads. Semi final v Aberdeen (2 equally bad teams) we were tenacious and committed and won thanks to Leigh’s goal. Versus Hearts (2 mismatched teams) our players were physically and mentally intimidated and you know what happened.


Second season. Let’s hit the ground running. He got Cairney who’d been winning rave reviews for his PT performances. OK says we. He retained McPake. He got McGivern and Extended Griffiths stay. O’Connor came back to the club and for 6 months we were at the right end of the league. We knew we’d flattered to deceive. Some of our wins and draws were fortunate. After Xmas we went on a horrible run and barely got a point and in the end we just missed out on top 6 before finishing off the last 5 games unbeaten with a great win at Tynecastle.
Our team was not intimidated by a (granted) weakened Hearts side and we went unbeaten against them for the first season since 2000. Thanks to Fenlon.

We got to a final again albeit just.
Well beaten in the final and played win ourselves but our talismanic striker was goosed!. Tactics were questioned but our only goalscoring threat was goosed!

This season Fenlon talked about strengthening things to seek improvement. We had Europe to look forward to and our Edinburgh footballing cousins were in deep doo doo! So the signings we made failed to excite the fans yet we signed McGiven permanently. Kevin Thomson [who split the fins due to tribal loyalties and perceived disrespect] Fraser Mullins a young prospect discarded by Hearts, Vine and Collins. Progess on paper certainly.

“And now we’ve got a younger team I dinnae want to brag.
I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag.”

Malmo…oops! Banana skins have never been so big. Losing 0-7 at home is unacceptable and the players must be embarrassed. Fenlon must go!

Motherwell played better but were focussed more on spoiling Motherwell’s attacking opportunities rather than going for a win with an offensive formation. We bit the big one when they exposed our defensive fragilities! Boo say the Hibee hoardes Fenlon's not got it let him go. Fenlon;'s post match interview was routine enough. Said what he thougt and when pressed on the fans position made a decent point about what he thinks not mattering. He's hurtung as much as us and needs to get the players performing better . Tactically could he do more? We'll we have a dirth of creative players on the flanks (Cairney and Harris crocked) but he could set us up differently.

Is that enough to get rid of Fenlon? Not for me!
Give the guys some time and some support and I believe we’ll see true progress. For me he has tried to instil a sense of pride in the jersey (yes, despite the Malmo result) and he has tried to make us win from the back. Tactics need improvement (including substitutions) but he can work on that with Jimmy Nichol.

We’re not going to win the league when Celtic are there so it’s about being best of the rest. We’re quick to criticise and complain, point out perceived improvements from other clubs who shouldn’t be able to compete with us financially but seem to get one over on us when we play.

Support the team. I am fed up listening to people all round me criticise before they encourage. Encourage as much as you can it does help!

Good post. Totally agree.

Gordy M
05-08-2013, 02:01 PM
How did our European run go? Also not much point getting to the final if you're going to play to avoid a doing like we did against Celtic.

I agree it was terrible, i said that, but thats hindsight. By your argument there is no point in getting to a final this year or getting to europe cause we will just get beat anyway??

NAE NOOKIE
05-08-2013, 02:04 PM
It's just that when we lose a number of posters come out of the woodwork who are conspicuous by their absence when we're doing well. If you supported say, Hearts, boosting the numbers wanting the Hibs manager sacked is good sport and helps to undermine your rivals.

Hopefully the board is discounting this and giving Fenlon at least until the first round of fixtures are complete to get a more realistic view of where we stand and if we are making progress.

Fair enough.

Will be OK with PF getting the first round of fixtures .... but if we lose to the Yams next weekend I just cant see him surviving.

Robinho08
05-08-2013, 02:05 PM
An excellent post NeilOrrSquareBa. I pretty much agree with all what you say.

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 02:06 PM
I agree it was terrible, i said that, but thats hindsight. By your argument there is no point in getting to a final this year or getting to europe cause we will just get beat anyway??

Be nice if we turned up for these games or at least have a go!! You not agree? His unbelievable blandness is driving fans away. But hey ho it's still progress eh?!!

Keith_M
05-08-2013, 02:07 PM
Let's all just lower our expectations and accept whatever comes our way.



:rolleyes:

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 02:13 PM
Let's all just lower our expectations and accept whatever comes our way.



:rolleyes:

Seems the way forward. Lets except the poorest football at ER for years, except that any big game we will play not to lose even though we will, expect crowds to keep dropping and expect not to make top 6.

We do that then everyone will be happy. The amount of folk who have no ambition for this club is scary. Oh and by that before the rod brigade dive in I'm on about setting up to win. Not set up not to lose and bore the fans to tears.

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 02:14 PM
I agree it was terrible, i said that, but thats hindsight. By your argument there is no point in getting to a final this year or getting to europe cause we will just get beat anyway??

No I said there's no much point getting to the final to play to avoid getting humped as he was ****ting himself in case that happened. Dundee Utd had a go against Celtic in the semi by attacking them. Of course I want us to play in Europe and reach cup finals but I want us to play when we get there

LongshanksED
05-08-2013, 02:14 PM
To say Fenlon hasn't improved hibs is short sighted

After staving off relegation in his first season, he took us to 7th in the league, even after a disastrous middle 3rd of the season, and should really have been in the top 6 but dodgy decisions at tannadice effectively ruined that for us

Who was the last hibs manager to get to successive finals?
Sure the results and performance wasn't on show in the final but still got there

Don't agree with the comments that Fenlon can't change a team. He changed it up in the semi against Falkirk. He changed in up against Celtic in the final too and we looked a bit better that game too

Gordy M
05-08-2013, 02:21 PM
Be nice if we turned up for these games or at least have a go!! You not agree? His unbelievable blandness is driving fans away. But hey ho it's still progress eh?!!

I totally agree mate, that wasnt the point. My point is that, yes its not working and i think he should probably go, but in general terms it hasnt been as horrific as folk have made out. Some of the stuff on here, and i include personal stuff, is way over the top. I dont care what anyone thinks but getting to two cup finals and europe in two seasons is an acheivement.

I personally think time has come for someone new, but i like pf and think he has done a lot of good for the club and some of the so called fans attitude and comments towards him are ridiculous.

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 02:22 PM
Anyone and I mean anyone could have improved us. But it's about taking us forward has he done that?

2 finals in which we got pumped. Say what you like about the 5-1 we were never winning that game. Celtic wasn't better at all. Down 1-0 after 8 mins and the game was over. We didnt contest at all.

Top 6 unlucky? Really? If we had played well we wouldn't be in the position when things go against you it costs us so dear. More points picked up those games wouldn't have mattered, but again all season it was a toil.

Lastly the Falkirk game, you think his amazing change of game won it? No danger, he just did what everyone could see needed done. Falkirk ran out of steam while he knew we had to throw the subs on.

JimBHibees
05-08-2013, 02:24 PM
Be nice if we turned up for these games or at least have a go!! You not agree? His unbelievable blandness is driving fans away. But hey ho it's still progress eh?!!

I could have understood PF playing the formation he did on Sunday against Hearts in the final, Celtic in the final and against a very good Malmo team but he played a much more attacking team in all these games than he did on Sunday. Doesnt make much sense though we did play some decent stuff yesterday on occasion.

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 02:25 PM
I totally agree mate, that wasnt the point. My point is that, yes its not working and i think he should probably go, but in general terms it hasnt been as horrific as folk have made out. Some of the stuff on here, and i include personal stuff, is way over the top. I dont care what anyone thinks but getting to two cup finals and europe in two seasons is an acheivement.

I personally think time has come for someone new, but i like pf and think he has done a lot of good for the club and some of the so called fans attitude and comments towards him are ridiculous.

The comments about him are defo out of order that I agree 100%. He's tried and its not working, not really any need for personal attacks.

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 02:25 PM
To say Fenlon hasn't improved hibs is short sighted

After staving off relegation in his first season, he took us to 7th in the league, even after a disastrous middle 3rd of the season, and should really have been in the top 6 but dodgy decisions at tannadice effectively ruined that for us

Who was the last hibs manager to get to successive finals?
Sure the results and performance wasn't on show in the final but still got there

Don't agree with the comments that Fenlon can't change a team. He changed it up in the semi against Falkirk. He changed in up against Celtic in the final too and we looked a bit better that game too

Sadly he hasn't improved us enough IMHO the Falkirk game seems to be the exception to the rule but the Celtic game. Really?

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 02:28 PM
I could have understood PF playing the formation he did on Sunday against Hearts in the final, Celtic in the final and against a very good Malmo team but he played a much more attacking team in all these games than he did on Sunday. Doesnt make much sense though we did play some decent stuff yesterday on occasion.

Exactly, game one at home, new players, new season and he puts everyone behind the ball as if we're playing Man U. Collins was so far adrift I'm surprised he never just stopped and fired a flare into the sky to send out an S.O.S.

Lucius Apuleius
05-08-2013, 02:28 PM
Fair enough.

Will be OK with PF getting the first round of fixtures .... but if we lose to the Yams next weekend I just cant see him surviving.

That is my viewpoint as well Bovril. I like the man a lot and pray for him to succeed but if we don't beat hertz his tea is oot.

Gustavo Fring
05-08-2013, 02:28 PM
final v hertz - kujabi gets roasted from the kick off and wise ol pat pulls off claros . while the sub was gettin stripped you could see paolo sergio on his hands and knees praying 'please dont let it be kujabi'

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 02:32 PM
I totally agree mate, that wasnt the point. My point is that, yes its not working and i think he should probably go, but in general terms it hasnt been as horrific as folk have made out. Some of the stuff on here, and i include personal stuff, is way over the top. I dont care what anyone thinks but getting to two cup finals and europe in two seasons is an acheivement.

I personally think time has come for someone new, but i like pf and think he has done a lot of good for the club and some of the so called fans attitude and comments towards him are ridiculous.

I also agree about the personal stuff and think he's a decent guy but just believe he's out of his depth.

Gordy M
05-08-2013, 02:34 PM
The comments about him are defo out of order that I agree 100%. He's tried and its not working, not really any need for personal attacks.

Yeh agree mate :aok:

i wasnt trying to justify him staying, i was merely pointing out that not EVERYTHING he has done was a disaster, as seems to be the view of some folk on here. My worry is that people start to believe that pf is so bad that they will accept ANY other manager just so that he is gone.....no way ahead im afraid. If he goes, we need someone who will improve us, not a ks or jc, whom im not sure would be an improvement on pf. As i said earlier calderwood had the most negative team ive seem at easter road, and hibs thumped ks killie team last year.

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 02:35 PM
I also agree about the personal stuff and think he's a decent guy but just believe he's out of his depth.

It is a shame, you can tell he cares about the club. He really has tried his best in his eyes. It's not worked for him and I honestly believe he knows it himself. His body language says it all in the dugout after they scored. Then that interview.

I thank him for saving us from the drop but anything after he's just not been able to do it.

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 02:38 PM
Yeh agree mate :aok:

i wasnt trying to justify him staying, i was merely pointing out that not EVERYTHING he has done was a disaster, as seems to be the view of some folk on here. My worry is that people start to believe that pf is so bad that they will accept ANY other manager just so that he is gone.....no way ahead im afraid. If he goes, we need someone who will improve us, not a ks or jc, whom im not sure would be an improvement on pf. As i said earlier calderwood had the most negative team ive seem at easter road, and hibs thumped ks killie team last year.

Agree with all this mate. By no means everything he done was wrong, I actually think he's build a good enough squad to be top 4 with another striker in. He just doesn't set up the team right but another man Prob could.

Gordy M
05-08-2013, 02:43 PM
Agree with all this mate. By no means everything he done was wrong, I actually think he's build a good enough squad to be top 4 with another striker in. He just doesn't set up the team right but another man Prob could.

I think thats the most telling thing for me, is that he seems to have an eye for a player and he has a good squad, just not sure he knows how to get the best out of them. Its really frustrating!! Thats why i think the time has come for a change.

who knows he might surprise us and go 3-3-4 formation for the yams at the pink palace!! Haha.

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 02:44 PM
It is a shame, you can tell he cares about the club. He really has tried his best in his eyes. It's not worked for him and I honestly believe he knows it himself. His body language says it all in the dugout after they scored. Then that interview.

I thank him for saving us from the drop but anything after he's just not been able to do it.

That's my feelings 100%. Felt the same about Yogi and Mixu in so far as really wanting them to succeed because they genuinely cared about the club

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 02:50 PM
Seems the way forward. Lets except the poorest football at ER for years, except that any big game we will play not to lose even though we will, expect crowds to keep dropping and expect not to make top 6.

We do that then everyone will be happy. The amount of folk who have no ambition for this club is scary. Oh and by that before the rod brigade dive in I'm on about setting up to win. Not set up not to lose and bore the fans to tears.

how long have you been supporting???? have witnessed a lot worse over the years including relegation a few times, I want to see entertaining football but this is not the poorest football we have witnessed in years, only if you started watching the Hibs last year???? we all want improvement its the first game ffs.:flag:

Keith_M
05-08-2013, 02:54 PM
I've just remembered an old expression that sums this up for me.


"He's no better than he ought to be".


It comes from a time when everyone thought they should just accept their place in society. Don't ever expect or hope for better because you just don't deserve it.

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 03:00 PM
how long have you been supporting???? have witnessed a lot worse over the years including relegation a few times, I want to see entertaining football but this is not the poorest football we have witnessed in years, only if you started watching the Hibs last year???? we all want improvement its the first game ffs.:flag:

Sorry if I'm not as old as you.. I've watched Hibs since mid 80's. it's the most negative a team I can remember. I'd say since Williamson.

Please don't give me it's the first game **** eh, or have you only watched us this year. We have been rotten for a long time under him.

Explain to me his tactics yesterday...

Fergus52
05-08-2013, 03:01 PM
Let's all just lower our expectations and accept whatever comes our way.



:rolleyes:

I Don't see any lowering of expectations.

Some people think pat should be given more time, you don't.

Aldo
05-08-2013, 03:09 PM
how long have you been supporting???? have witnessed a lot worse over the years including relegation a few times, I want to see entertaining football but this is not the poorest football we have witnessed in years, only if you started watching the Hibs last year???? we all want improvement its the first game ffs.:flag:

I been watching Hibs since the 70's and seen loads of poor Hibs Teams we got relegated in the 90's because we were too open... 3-1 up against the Huns at ER and Duff Jimmy is pushing us forward leaving gaps all over the place. Lacy of tactics etc

Yes PF has turned the squad around, tried to change the culture of dressing room but god his tactics are poor. His subs yesterday baffled me. We had the opportunity to bring on a Forward thinking player but instead a defensive MF player.

Even in his interview... He was full if negativity.. I don't like getting beaten but its the manner of the defeat. With the other MF we sat too deep x d didn't support Collins.

PF comes across as a really nice guy who cares about the club but I really do think he's out his depth a bit.

FWIW I want ever Hibs manager and player to be a success and dong like them bring sacked but PF has taken the club as far as he can.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 03:12 PM
Sorry if I'm not as old as you.. I've watched Hibs since mid 80's. it's the most negative a team I can remember. I'd say since Williamson.

Please don't give me it's the first game **** eh, or have you only watched us this year. We have been rotten for a long time under him.

Explain to me his tactics yesterday...

I am not going to defend his tactics, we are all after the same thing, a HIBS team we want to see, want to watch, play for each other, have us on the edge of our seats. however it is not the worse team since the 80s. Agree its far from being where we should be!!!! however we have got rid of lots of individuals who were not the right professional people to have at ER and in PF you must be able to admit he has changed the culture. yes we have had some horrific defeats and they are still sore, but not since 2000 are we un beaten but them, he has improved, he has a long way to go to be any where near what we deserve but I honestly believe he is working hard for the club. I think each year we will see improvement. who are we going to get (be careful what you wish for) shields, JC are even worse. Eck not enough money for him to purchase the players he would want. we have been under performing since the 80s but I think I can see improvement in all areas of the club hopefully for future generations to enjoy. I don't ever want to argue with any other hibs supporters we are all in this together and all want the same thing, opinions may vary, Mon the HIBS:flag:

oregonhibby
05-08-2013, 03:14 PM
I Don't see any lowering of expectations.

Some people think pat should be given more time, you don't.

I agree. My expectations or ambitions have not been lowered - winning games and winning competitions - but I recognise sacking the manager frequently can't necessarily be the right answer, unless you throw money (you either have - Chelsea; or don't have - Hearts) and buy your way up the league.

The hardest part of any recruitment is the preparation, research and then checking references to ensure you have the right person - then it is still a gamble. I am sure if we remain at the lower end of the league or are battling relegation the manager will go, however, as I pointed out earlier the circus starts again and there are no guarantees.

In any case whoever takes the job can't win - if we win ugly there will be complaints about the Hibernian style of play. If we are stylish and lose then he will be naive. If we win with style we will complain when we don't sign Ronaldo. Hey ho, that's the Hibernian way.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 03:16 PM
I been watching Hibs since the 70's and seen loads of poor Hibs Teams we got relegated in the 90's because we were too open... 3-1 up against the Huns at ER and Duff Jimmy is pushing us forward leaving gaps all over the place. Lacy of tactics etc

Yes PF has turned the squad around, tried to change the culture of dressing room but god his tactics are poor. His subs yesterday baffled me. We had the opportunity to bring on a Forward thinking player but instead a defensive MF player.

Even in his interview... He was full if negativity.. I don't like getting beaten but its the manner of the defeat. With the other MF we sat too deep x d didn't support Collins.

PF comes across as a really nice guy who cares about the club but I really do think he's out his depth a bit.

FWIW I want ever Hibs manager and player to be a success and dong like them bring sacked but PF has taken the club as far as he can.

ok point taken, Man Utd probably thought the same about Sir Alex Ferguson prior to warning him if he failed to win the FA cup he would be sacked, the rest is history, hindsight is fantastic I just worry who will take us forward as the names mentioned in my opinion are no better than we have at present

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 03:24 PM
I am not going to defend his tactics, we are all after the same thing, a HIBS team we want to see, want to watch, play for each other, have us on the edge of our seats. however it is not the worse team since the 80s. Agree its far from being where we should be!!!! however we have got rid of lots of individuals who were not the right professional people to have at ER and in PF you must be able to admit he has changed the culture. yes we have had some horrific defeats and they are still sore, but not since 2000 are we un beaten but them, he has improved, he has a long way to go to be any where near what we deserve but I honestly believe he is working hard for the club. I think each year we will see improvement. who are we going to get (be careful what you wish for) shields, JC are even worse. Eck not enough money for him to purchase the players he would want. we have been under performing since the 80s but I think I can see improvement in all areas of the club hopefully for future generations to enjoy. I don't ever want to argue with any other hibs supporters we are all in this together and all want the same thing, opinions may vary, Mon the HIBS:flag:

I think you miss my point mate, it's not the worst team, it's the most negative team since Blobby. I do agree he's changed the culture if you look at all my other posts on him you will see I've said we have a good squad he just can't manage them. He's took us as far as he can.

I don't want KS or JC, but come on you think out of all the managers in the world we couldn't get one better than Fenlon. I also think he's worked very hard behind the scenes trying to get things right. So for me this is the best time for a new man to come in and kick on. Mowbray did it when Blobby left. We have a good squad in terms of where we want and should be going but it's sad Pat just can't get his tactics right after so Long and playing players out of position which I'm sure you can agree?

We do all want the best things for Hibs I think that's why there are so many discussions about Pat. I fully respect what you are saying, I'm not arguing either mate. Like you said it's all about opinions I just think its time he left. No shame in what he has tried or done.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 03:28 PM
I think you miss my point mate, it's not the worst team, it's the most negative team since Blobby. I do agree he's changed the culture if you look at all my other posts on him you will see I've said we have a good squad he just can't manage them. He's took us as far as he can.

I don't want KS or JC, but come on you think out of all the managers in the world we couldn't get one better than Fenlon. I also think he's worked very hard behind the scenes trying to get things right. So for me this is the best time for a new man to come in and kick on. Mowbray did it when Blobby left. We have a good squad in terms of where we want and should be going but it's sad Pat just can't get his tactics right after so Long and playing players out of position which I'm sure you can agree?

We do all want the best things for Hibs I think that's why there are so many discussions about Pat. I fully respect what you are saying, I'm not arguing either mate. Like you said it's all about opinions I just think its time he left. No shame in what he has tried or done.

no dramas lets just give them a good hiding and I will feel better if we fail I will totally agree with you ha ha just want HIBS to be what they can be....

Thecat23
05-08-2013, 03:31 PM
no dramas lets just give them a good hiding and I will feel better if we fail I will totally agree with you ha ha just want HIBS to be what they can be....

Same here bud. :)

blackpoolhibs
05-08-2013, 03:31 PM
ok point taken, Man Utd probably thought the same about Sir Alex Ferguson prior to warning him if he failed to win the FA cup he would be sacked, the rest is history, hindsight is fantastic I just worry who will take us forward as the names mentioned in my opinion are no better than we have at present

All fine and dandy, but that never happened. Its a bit like Petrie sided with the players during collinsgate, if you say something enough, eventually it becomes a fact.

NORTHERNHIBBY
05-08-2013, 03:35 PM
Well said. And remember some of the most negative posts about Fenlon and Hibs aren't from real supporters.


And all the positive posts are only from real supporters then?
:tin hat:

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 03:38 PM
All fine and dandy, but that never happened. Its a bit like Petrie sided with the players during collinsgate, if you say something enough, eventually it becomes a fact.

Ferguson joined Utd 86 if I remember had 3 horrific season almost relegated, there were banners saying 3 years still terrible Ferguson out until he beat Forrest and went on to win the FA Cup, its in his book as the worse years he had, yes the board never said they would sack him but the fans protested to get him sacked !!!! my point is they endured 3 terrible seasons under a manager who was underperforming, but look at history they are glad they stood by him despite the fans protesting. I am only making an observation from his book and his facts, not saying its the way ahead but I am sure what I have stated is 100 per cent true. only saying hindsight is great we would all employee the right manager then...

WestEndHibee
05-08-2013, 03:38 PM
Hibs Support

I’m 52 now.
When I was 15-18 years old I loved the Hibs support. I loved being part of it and I loved the fact we were far more learnered than our football supporting cousins from the west (including West Edinburgh) who were far more arranged along sectarian lines and couldn’t see the good in players that played for other teams. We knew we had a good team and we were happy to recognise good play from others when we saw it.

After segregation at matches came in (around the 1980’s) I began to see tribalism gather momentum at Easter Road. Chants stopped being about how good we were or about a favourite player and more about how much we hate the opposition, the players the management the fans and their families. To the point today that my 12 year old son speak about “casuals” and “kicking off “ and more disturbingly about “paedo’s” and “sex offenders”. Clearly society has issues and we’re stuck with it. I only hope I can temper my son’s excitable view that these sorts of chants are NOT acceptable behaviour in a civilised society.

The one thing I thought I’d be able to rely on was our fans’ having a sense of perspective and seeing things from different viewpoints not just rolling out the stock responses distilled by hack journalists who find it easier to write “5-1, 0-7, Nearly Falkirk. Or in a certain Mr Preston’s case given the platform of national radio to invest in his weekly Hibs baiting to the point where it is an “in joke” for the other “professional" journalists.

Hibs have been mediocre at best since about 1976.
McLeish bought “success” and gave me my favourite period as a Hibs fan watching Sauzee, Latapy, Zitelli et al. Mowbray tried to educate a sense of moral dignity into a squad of youthful players. Collins tried to make people change their culture overnight by strong arm tactics rather than wining their hearts and minds. Since then?

Paatelainen. Just didn’t go for him
Hughes. Thick as mince. “Sprinkle the fairy dust.” My ar*e!
Calderwood. Fraud!

Now Fenlon. Judging by the baying hounds on Hibs.net and the vocal hoardes at ER he’s a numpty! But for me he has brought several things to the club that merit him being given more time to turn things round.
Grit and determination – yes he has it. Certainly as a player he was renowned for his tenacity and spirit. He identified what was needed to keep us up and although he had to sign a new team in January to (just) do it. He got us to a cup final and despite what happened that day I cannot blame him beyond the (majority ) of the players that day who just “weren’t up for it” It’s his job to make sure they’re up for I hear you say. Well perspective lads. Semi final v Aberdeen (2 equally bad teams) we were tenacious and committed and won thanks to Leigh’s goal. Versus Hearts (2 mismatched teams) our players were physically and mentally intimidated and you know what happened.


Second season. Let’s hit the ground running. He got Cairney who’d been winning rave reviews for his PT performances. OK says we. He retained McPake. He got McGivern and Extended Griffiths stay. O’Connor came back to the club and for 6 months we were at the right end of the league. We knew we’d flattered to deceive. Some of our wins and draws were fortunate. After Xmas we went on a horrible run and barely got a point and in the end we just missed out on top 6 before finishing off the last 5 games unbeaten with a great win at Tynecastle.
Our team was not intimidated by a (granted) weakened Hearts side and we went unbeaten against them for the first season since 2000. Thanks to Fenlon.

We got to a final again albeit just.
Well beaten in the final and played win ourselves but our talismanic striker was goosed!. Tactics were questioned but our only goalscoring threat was goosed!

This season Fenlon talked about strengthening things to seek improvement. We had Europe to look forward to and our Edinburgh footballing cousins were in deep doo doo! So the signings we made failed to excite the fans yet we signed McGiven permanently. Kevin Thomson [who split the fins due to tribal loyalties and perceived disrespect] Fraser Mullins a young prospect discarded by Hearts, Vine and Collins. Progess on paper certainly.

“And now we’ve got a younger team I dinnae want to brag.
I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag.”

Malmo…oops! Banana skins have never been so big. Losing 0-7 at home is unacceptable and the players must be embarrassed. Fenlon must go!

Motherwell played better but were focussed more on spoiling Motherwell’s attacking opportunities rather than going for a win with an offensive formation. We bit the big one when they exposed our defensive fragilities! Boo say the Hibee hoardes Fenlon's not got it let him go. Fenlon;'s post match interview was routine enough. Said what he thougt and when pressed on the fans position made a decent point about what he thinks not mattering. He's hurtung as much as us and needs to get the players performing better . Tactically could he do more? We'll we have a dirth of creative players on the flanks (Cairney and Harris crocked) but he could set us up differently.

Is that enough to get rid of Fenlon? Not for me!
Give the guys some time and some support and I believe we’ll see true progress. For me he has tried to instil a sense of pride in the jersey (yes, despite the Malmo result) and he has tried to make us win from the back. Tactics need improvement (including substitutions) but he can work on that with Jimmy Nichol.

We’re not going to win the league when Celtic are there so it’s about being best of the rest. We’re quick to criticise and complain, point out perceived improvements from other clubs who shouldn’t be able to compete with us financially but seem to get one over on us when we play.

Support the team. I am fed up listening to people all round me criticise before they encourage. Encourage as much as you can it does help!

:applause: Good to see a post of this sort. I agree with it all, anyone questioning the team's pride should have watched the last derby. Hadn't seen a hibs team play against hearts like that in a good few years. We might think we've given the team time to change but it takes a lot longer than what we've given.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 03:41 PM
:applause: Good to see a post of this sort. I agree with it all, anyone questioning the team's pride should have watched the last derby. Hadn't seen a hibs team play against hearts like that in a good few years. We might think we've given the team time to change but it takes a lot longer than what we've given.

I agree:flag:

blackpoolhibs
05-08-2013, 03:42 PM
Ferguson joined Utd 86 if I remember had 3 horrific season almost relegated, there were banners saying 3 years still terrible Ferguson out until he beat Forrest and went on to win the FA Cup, its in his book as the worse years he had, yes the board never said they would sack him but the fans protested to get him sacked !!!! my point is they endured 3 terrible seasons under a manager who was underperforming, but look at history they are glad they stood by him despite the fans protesting. I am only making an observation from his book and his facts, not saying its the way ahead but I am sure what I have stated is 100 per cent true. only saying hindsight is great we would all employee the right manager then...

So apart from the Man United board not warning him he was out on his ear if they did not beat Forrest, you are correct.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 03:47 PM
So apart from the Man United board not warning him he was out on his ear if they did not beat Forrest, you are correct.

sorry I meant to say all the supporters wanted him gone,

PeeJay
05-08-2013, 03:48 PM
Ferguson joined Utd 86 if I remember had 3 horrific season almost relegated, there were banners saying 3 years still terrible Ferguson out until he beat Forrest and went on to win the FA Cup, its in his book as the worse years he had, yes the board never said they would sack him but the fans protested to get him sacked !!!! my point is they endured 3 terrible seasons under a manager who was underperforming, but look at history they are glad they stood by him despite the fans protesting. I am only making an observation from his book and his facts, not saying its the way ahead but I am sure what I have stated is 100 per cent true. only saying hindsight is great we would all employee the right manager then...

This Ferguson-Fenlon comparison seems totally nonsense to me and quite devoid of the perspective being bandied about in this thread. Fergson had a proven history of success - in Scotland and in Europe, with Aberdeen before heading south. What he achieved in Scotland was quite remarkable and a clear demonstration of his managerial prowess. What has Fenlon achieved to permit him to even be mentioned in the same sentence as a great manager?

blackpoolhibs
05-08-2013, 03:49 PM
sorry I meant to say all the supporters wanted him gone,

Which completely makes a mockery of your the rest is history, and hindsight quote, dont you think?

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 03:54 PM
This Ferguson-Fenlon comparison seems totally nonsense to me and quite devoid of the perspective being bandied about in this thread. Fergson had a proven history of success - in Scotland and in Europe, with Aberdeen before heading south. What he achieved in Scotland was quite remarkable and a clear demonstration of his managerial prowess. What has Fenlon achieved to permit him to even be mentioned in the same sentence as a great manager?

I agree and he is one of the greats, the only point I was badly trying to make was he had 3 horrific season at Man Utd almost relegated, the fans and media wanted him gone for his poor performance however the board stood by him although it was expected if he failed to win against forrest he would of been sacked. He went on to become the finest manager of all time. I am not making comparisons with him and Fenlon apart from sometime you have to endure below par performances in the short term to get the greater advantage in the long term, Rome was not built in a day. sorry I did not mean it to come across in any way a comparison on ability, just an observation!

BH Hibs
05-08-2013, 04:00 PM
Ferguson joined Utd 86 if I remember had 3 horrific season almost relegated, there were banners saying 3 years still terrible Ferguson out until he beat Forrest and went on to win the FA Cup, its in his book as the worse years he had, yes the board never said they would sack him but the fans protested to get him sacked !!!! my point is they endured 3 terrible seasons under a manager who was underperforming, but look at history they are glad they stood by him despite the fans protesting. I am only making an observation from his book and his facts, not saying its the way ahead but I am sure what I have stated is 100 per cent true. only saying hindsight is great we would all employee the right manager then...

Not the Fergie argument ffs. Fergie had already lifted a European trophy with a relatively small Scottish club as well as breaking the Old Firm duopoly. Anyway it wasn't my intention to come on this thread to bash PF I was taking more of an exception to the lack of ambition of acceptance of mediocrity which seems to be around the club

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 04:00 PM
Which completely makes a mockery of your the rest is history, and hindsight quote, dont you think?

it is widely understood if he failed to win against Forrest he would of been sacked, check it out, media, fans all wanted him gone, but he turned it around, no it is my point. he endured 3 season of below par performances, most thought he had done all he could, but they stood firm after his victory and the rest is history. I do not mean we should do the same just pointing out an observation on one of the greats. I do not think it is a mockery noting trends in football, we have a trend at ER sacking managers and remaining under performing to teams on lower budgets, I don't like that and wish I could change it as want the best Hibs team ever, just think we are heading for more of the same for next few years changing manager every season. sorry for posting!

PeeJay
05-08-2013, 04:03 PM
I agree and he is one of the greats, the only point I was badly trying to make was he had 3 horrific season at Man Utd almost relegated, the fans and media wanted him gone for his poor performance however the board stood by him although it was expected if he failed to win against forrest he would of been sacked. He went on to become the finest manager of all time. I am not making comparisons with him and Fenlon apart from sometime you have to endure below par performances in the short term to get the greater advantage in the long term, Rome was not built in a day. sorry I did not mean it to come across in any way a comparison on ability, just an observation!

Wasn't meant to be a dig at you at all, you're not the only one to make this comparison on here (some other thread probably) ... I understand the 'all good things need time theory' (or whatever the phrase is), and FWIW, I'd give Ferguson three bad seasons at ER too, but I 'm not convinced persisting with Fenlon will lead to fruition ...

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 04:08 PM
Wasn't meant to be a dig at you at all, you're not the only one to make this comparison on here (some other thread probably) ... I understand the 'all good things need time theory' (or whatever the phrase is), and FWIW, I'd give Ferguson three bad seasons at ER too, but I 'm not convinced persisting with Fenlon will lead to fruition ...

ok understand lets just win on Sunday:agree:!

blackpoolhibs
05-08-2013, 04:23 PM
it is widely understood if he failed to win against Forrest he would of been sacked, check it out, media, fans all wanted him gone, but he turned it around, no it is my point. he endured 3 season of below par performances, most thought he had done all he could, but they stood firm after his victory and the rest is history. I do not mean we should do the same just pointing out an observation on one of the greats. I do not think it is a mockery noting trends in football, we have a trend at ER sacking managers and remaining under performing to teams on lower budgets, I don't like that and wish I could change it as want the best Hibs team ever, just think we are heading for more of the same for next few years changing manager every season. sorry for posting!

You claim it was widely understood he'd be sacked if he did not win that game, something the board at Man U strongly deny. You also claim he was warned he'd be sacked but one post later said he'd not been warned? :confused:

It made no difference who thought he'd done all he could, the United board had backed and continued to back him because they could see the work he'd done and was doing in the background with the youth set up. It was just about to bare fruit.

The Manchester United board were not about to sack him if he'd lost to forrest, and you along with many others continue to make this point when comparing whoever is in charge of Hibs. Its just wrong, and gets right on my thrupennies, along with Petrie siding with the players, these things never happened.

Fergus52
05-08-2013, 06:40 PM
i was at them all last year bar the final , and 3 of them this year including the semi final .

without griffiths we wouldnt have made either of those finals and you know it

Without griffiths we would have had another striker though, so that's a silly comment to make.

In both cup runs the only standout performance I remember griffiths having is his hat trick at Killlie away.

For all he scored two in the Falkirk semi his game was actually pretty poor.

You could say that we wouldn't have made either final without deegan,spoony or Doyle just because they scored goals that put us through.

Fraz1875
05-08-2013, 06:44 PM
the thread title is a nonsense. we are entitled and correct to expect and demand more

snooky
05-08-2013, 06:49 PM
His inability to change a team during play is staggering. We have the players to beat almost every team in the league. Motherwell had almost nothing against us and we still somehow managed to get beat. That was 100% down to Fenlon and his unique ability to stop his own team playing football.

:agree: 100% - It's ta-ta time.

Ray_
05-08-2013, 06:52 PM
it is widely understood if he failed to win against Forrest he would of been sacked, check it out, media, fans all wanted him gone, but he turned it around, no it is my point. he endured 3 season of below par performances, most thought he had done all he could, but they stood firm after his victory and the rest is history. I do not mean we should do the same just pointing out an observation on one of the greats. I do not think it is a mockery noting trends in football, we have a trend at ER sacking managers and remaining under performing to teams on lower budgets, I don't like that and wish I could change it as want the best Hibs team ever, just think we are heading for more of the same for next few years changing manager every season. sorry for posting!

It very well could be the same next year, however, this cycle will all change when a good manager is appointed, as that is the most important role in any football club.

Macaroon
05-08-2013, 07:01 PM
Admire your optimisim (and the resilience of your typing fingers) but totally disagree. Setting up for a nil-nil draw at home to Motherwell in the first game of the season is simply unacceptable in my book. Despite all the signings we have a team totally lacking in pace, creativity, any sort of game plan and any winning mentality. Fenlon has the tactical nous of a mollusc - McCall must have been laughing at how easy it was to win yesterday's game with a simple double substitution at the right time.

How do you know we were setting up for a 0-0 draw? We had a midfield geared towards attack most definitely. The fact that every time we try to play with 4 in midfield we are utterly overrun is enough to warrant a 451 formation. We had a very weak defense and it needed to be protected. For 80 of the 90 minutes it worked, the vast majority of Well attacks broke down in midfield due to the greater numbers and it took one freak header to beat the our defensive line.

What would your opinion of Fenlon right now be if we had "set up for a win" and gone 433 or similar and been destroyed 3-0? Would you be sitting there defending Fenlon because he at least went for the win. No, I don't think you would.

HFC 0-7
05-08-2013, 07:11 PM
Everything you've said about Fenlon I've tried to pass onto others. You don't lead a team to 2 successive finals by being a bad manager. He started weeding out the bad eggs like O Connor and others who you believe behind closed changing room doors and in training were bringing the club down.

Even after Malmo I've been saying that he has to get at least 15 or so league games before decisions in whether to keep him or not. He's just brought in EIGHT new players over the summer. We can now say that it's his team. Give him the chance. The team he's been trying to build this season hasn't even had a proper run out yet, let alone a chance to work together

Like it or not, managers do not have time to build squads. The reason is because of the short term deals and loans that all clubs seem to be dealing with these days. If you look at just about every club, they have many contracts up at the end of every season. Teams used to dish out 3 year contracts as the norm, not now I'm afraid, so the successful managers are the ones that can hit the ground running every season.

jeffers
05-08-2013, 07:12 PM
How do you know we were setting up for a 0-0 draw? We had a midfield geared towards attack most definitely. The fact that every time we try to play with 4 in midfield we are utterly overrun is enough to warrant a 451 formation. We had a very weak defense and it needed to be protected. For 80 of the 90 minutes it worked, the vast majority of Well attacks broke down in midfield due to the greater numbers and it took one freak header to beat the our defensive line.

What would your opinion of Fenlon right now be if we had "set up for a win" and gone 433 or similar and been destroyed 3-0? Would you be sitting there defending Fenlon because he at least went for the win. No, I don't think you would.
Bits in bold. We were playing a Motherwell team who have lost 4-5 of their best players from last season, not Celtic. If we, as you put it, get overrun playing 4 in midfield then who is to blame for that ? Same with set up for a win, if we can't do that then again who is to blame ? He's been there long enough and signed enough players that we shouldn't need to play five midfielders at home.

eastterrace
05-08-2013, 09:09 PM
fantastic post born a Hi-Bee and I will die a Hi-Bee!!!!!! I believe PF needs more time and I can see what he has done, and I want him to have more time, unbeaten against Hearts is enough to keep me happy as first time since 2000. I believe he will come good, mon the Hibs

fenlon has no chance of coming good , his day are numbered, maybe even this weekend, but surely we wont get beat from that mob, but even if we win his negative tactics are driving the fans away.

BVB Hibs
05-08-2013, 10:36 PM
What has Fenlon achieved to permit him to even be mentioned in the same sentence as a great manager?

I'm not going to put Fenlon on any sort of footing with Ferguson, however how can his achievements as manager be questioned? He has no been manager for 11 years, and he has won 5 league titles with 2 different sides in Ireland.

Sure, Ireland isn't the the greatest standard in the world, however let's not forget that Drogheda, a mid table side put up an admirable performance against the same Malmo side that walked through us. So evidently the Irish league isn't the poorest out there either. He's won there over half the years he competed.

Yes, Fenlon hasn't exactly been a rousing success, but I feel the criticism of him is harsh. People talk about three poor results, 2 in cup finals and one in europe. Let's ask ourselves this, would any other manager have managed to get us to a cup final? Probably not, and had he lost in the cup semi twice we'd have no "embarrassing" results to talk about. Personally, I'd rather get to a final and get drubbed 7-0 than never achieve those heights. Even a big defeat in the final means you were the second best side in the competition, I'd see that as an achievement rather than a reason to start slating the manager.

I can't find any excuses against Malmo, however it's only because of this result that people are taking the Motherwell result to harshly. Watching the game I thought we were fantastic defensively, particularly in midfield. The goal came off a defensive mistake and a lucky ball in. It could have gone another way and we'd have come off with a 0-0 draw against the second best side in the league last year. We weren't great going forward, however you have to realise that Harris wasn't on song, and we were missing Vine. Collins showed great promise for this year, and really all it takes is for us to move one or two up in support from the flat five in order to compete up front. With Vine in, I'd imagine this would be the case. If we support Collins I think the wins will come. Maybe Fenlon was just cutting his losses between injury and suspension and trying to get through that game with a point? When you're missing that many players that's not a surprising thing to do, even if unusual in a season opener. The overwhelming thing for me though is that it's not even a big change required to make us look like a dangerous team going forward, a small change and we should be able to counter a lot better, you don't need to have the ball 60% of the time to score goals.

My major question is this though. Everybody is questioning Fenlon's ability. He's won an awful lot in a relatively short period of time as a manager. The team has improved each year, and while not playing exciting football yesterday we were definitely a stronger unit than last season. Do we really think hibs can bring in somebody with a higher pedigree? Fenlon has done so much right off the pitch, that I think we should give him some time to bring his vision to fruition. If we find in a year or two that we're not going forward, then get rid of him, but we do need to realise the state the side was in when he took over.

jakeshibs
05-08-2013, 10:54 PM
I'm not going to put Fenlon on any sort of footing with Ferguson, however how can his achievements as manager be questioned? He has no been manager for 11 years, and he has won 5 league titles with 2 different sides in Ireland.

Sure, Ireland isn't the the greatest standard in the world, however let's not forget that Drogheda, a mid table side put up an admirable performance against the same Malmo side that walked through us. So evidently the Irish league isn't the poorest out there either. He's won there over half the years he competed.

Yes, Fenlon hasn't exactly been a rousing success, but I feel the criticism of him is harsh. People talk about three poor results, 2 in cup finals and one in europe. Let's ask ourselves this, would any other manager have managed to get us to a cup final? Probably not, and had he lost in the cup semi twice we'd have no "embarrassing" results to talk about. Personally, I'd rather get to a final and get drubbed 7-0 than never achieve those heights. Even a big defeat in the final means you were the second best side in the competition, I'd see that as an achievement rather than a reason to start slating the manager.

I can't find any excuses against Malmo, however it's only because of this result that people are taking the Motherwell result to harshly. Watching the game I thought we were fantastic defensively, particularly in midfield. The goal came off a defensive mistake and a lucky ball in. It could have gone another way and we'd have come off with a 0-0 draw against the second best side in the league last year. We weren't great going forward, however you have to realise that Harris wasn't on song, and we were missing Vine. Collins showed great promise for this year, and really all it takes is for us to move one or two up in support from the flat five in order to compete up front. With Vine in, I'd imagine this would be the case. If we support Collins I think the wins will come. Maybe Fenlon was just cutting his losses between injury and suspension and trying to get through that game with a point? When you're missing that many players that's not a surprising thing to do, even if unusual in a season opener. The overwhelming thing for me though is that it's not even a big change required to make us look like a dangerous team going forward, a small change and we should be able to counter a lot better, you don't need to have the ball 60% of the time to score goals.

My major question is this though. Everybody is questioning Fenlon's ability. He's won an awful lot in a relatively short period of time as a manager. The team has improved each year, and while not playing exciting football yesterday we were definitely a stronger unit than last season. Do we really think hibs can bring in somebody with a higher pedigree? Fenlon has done so much right off the pitch, that I think we should give him some time to bring his vision to fruition. If we find in a year or two that we're not going forward, then get rid of him, but we do need to realise the state the side was in when he took over.

I totally agree excellent post lets get in tae them on sunday lets support PF and the team, I can see improvement slowly but surely!!

PeeJay
06-08-2013, 05:55 AM
I'm not going to put Fenlon on any sort of footing with Ferguson, however how can his achievements as manager be questioned? He has no been manager for 11 years, and he has won 5 league titles with 2 different sides in Ireland.
.....
My post was in response to suggestions that because Fergie didn't click at Man United straight away we should have the same patience with Fenlon - the inference being because Fergie "came good in the end". There is no comparison. Personally I don't care what Fenlon "achieved" in Ireland: it's not similar to Ferguson's remarkable achievements in a Scotland dominated by the Old Firm. Fenlon did well in Ireland as you say, maybe the Irish league is his level? He seems out of his depth here. I am not convinced by your claims of progress either. The manager has shown himself throughout his tenure to be unable to stem the flow of defensive mistakes that plague this club, he also seems unable to put out a team on the park where everyone 'knows' what is to be done. A structured, cohesive, motivated, fit team playing creative, intelligent, exciting football: not with Fenlon, I'm afraid, I don't believe that he has any "vision" for this club! I don't think people are being "harsh" with him because of "3 bad results": we failed to make top 6 in a league without Rangers, we were unable to compete with the top 6 teams in a very poor SPL last season: it's an on-going problem. Defensively, there has been no progress at all IMO, how you can claim that we are "definitely a stronger unit than last season" on the back of a 0-7 humiliation at home baffles me, as does your "I'd rather get to a cup final and get beat 0-7 than not be there at all", - you may fnd that acceptable, I don't. Fenlon's neck was pulled out of the noose last season by Griffiths alone. I wanted him to do well, but he's on his own this season, and I think we should simply accept he's the wrong man for this job.

NeilOrrSquareBa
06-08-2013, 08:44 AM
I can't find any excuses against Malmo, however it's only because of this result that people are taking the Motherwell result to harshly. Watching the game I thought we were fantastic defensively, particularly in midfield. The goal came off a defensive mistake and a lucky ball in. It could have gone another way and we'd have come off with a 0-0 draw against the second best side in the league last year. We weren't great going forward, however you have to realise that Harris wasn't on song, and we were missing Vine. Collins showed great promise for this year, and really all it takes is for us to move one or two up in support from the flat five in order to compete up front. With Vine in, I'd imagine this would be the case. If we support Collins I think the wins will come. Maybe Fenlon was just cutting his losses between injury and suspension and trying to get through that game with a point? When you're missing that many players that's not a surprising thing to do, even if unusual in a season opener. The overwhelming thing for me though is that it's not even a big change required to make us look like a dangerous team going forward, a small change and we should be able to counter a lot better, you don't need to have the ball 60% of the time to score goals.


This for me is crucial to win the fans round. Using Hibernian.co.uk to publish a 5 minutes "chat" with the manager to give his view to the fans on team set up, selection and game outcome - may go some way to help us understand his thinking and some of the reasons behind his tactics/team selection. Need not be anorakish but give Fenlon the opportunity to put his point of view across to us in a non confrontational sort of way.

Owain_1987
06-08-2013, 09:49 AM
I really do agree I think we have to give Fenlon a chance now I just hope he can take the chance. I like Fenlon as a man but I just pray he can learn from mistakes. We really have to stop playing players out of position.