Fenlon with a Twist

[Chump]

I am genuinely interested to hear from those fans who have been Fenlon supporters from day one.....the songs each week at ER suggest there is a hardcore support (albeit waning now) who believe(d) he is/was doing good things at ER

What is it that you see about the team, performance, PF in general that warrants this support (applaudable but IMO undeserved)??

There has been enough said about his sacking in the past couple of days, which have been 100% deserved, but I'd like to hear from those who still believe he has something to offer (if there are any of you left)!!

For the record I'm not a PF supporter in the slightest, he lost all my respect the day he let Ian Black look like a world beater at Hampden......

.......defend away

[Waxy]

I think it's the things he said after the cup final. He said we are a soft touch and the club needed to change. He knows whats wrong but can't fix it. Sweeping changes at all levels needed now.

[Aldo]

I am genuinely interested to hear from those fans who have been Fenlon supporters from day one.....the songs each week at ER suggest there is a hardcore support (albeit waning now) who believe(d) he is/was doing good things at ER

What is it that you see about the team, performance, PF in general that warrants this support (applaudable but IMO undeserved)??

There has been enough said about his sacking in the past couple of days, which have been 100% deserved, but I'd like to hear from those who still believe he has something to offer (if there are any of you left)!!

For the record I'm not a PF supporter in the slightest, he lost all my respect the day he let Ian Black look like a world beater at Hampden......

.......defend away

First off the man took over a job that has become a poison chalice over the years...

I am a supporter of Hibernian Football Club and therefore will support the manager, players appointed by the board of directors fully, regardless of my liking of the manager or players.

PF took over a team with little or no confidence, bottom and 2nd bottom of SPL and managed to keep us up and get us to the SCF.

You mention HE made Ian Black look like a world beater... No That thug should if been red carded for his elbow right in front of Thompson... No excuses there tbh... We were beaten as a TEAM... They were better, stronger and Hungrier for it ENDOF. No excuses here but Thompson played a big part in that as well.

After getting beaten 3 nil at Tannadice folk wrote the team off but tbh after that we played some no bad football, but we were not consistent enough... We should of made top six but got to another SCF. However that 1st half performance alone should of got him sacked...

Beaten by a far superior Celtic Team but again played KT out if position etc.

Then we have Pre season... Went to Raith a few weeks ago and boy was it painful. Players out of position a Capt that isn't fit... No fluency...blah blah blah

Then Thurs can't say we don't know what happened there.... Players out if position Capt injured total and utter Capitulation.

I cannot back a manager who allows our team to get beaten 7 nil at home.

I have read many posts this last few days about PF and it saddens me to say this

He has had a massive job trying to turn the club round from top to bottom and I really do think the club are too big for him... I will say however that sacking him now wouldn't benefit the players but they are as much to blame as him.

Call it fence sitting but I was a supporter of him for his efforts to turn the club round but really think that it's beyond him.

The club needs stability no changing managers every other year.

I blame the board

[Gatecrasher]

I am genuinely interested to hear from those fans who have been Fenlon supporters from day one.....the songs each week at ER suggest there is a hardcore support (albeit waning now) who believe(d) he is/was doing good things at ER

What is it that you see about the team, performance, PF in general that warrants this support (applaudable but IMO undeserved)??

There has been enough said about his sacking in the past couple of days, which have been 100% deserved, but I'd like to hear from those who still believe he has something to offer (if there are any of you left)!!

For the record I'm not a PF supporter in the slightest, he lost all my respect the day he let Ian Black look like a world beater at Hampden......

.......defend away
I'm sure we would all be backing the manager from day 1? :confused:

[Spike Mandela]

I wonder if people aren't so much defending the man as opposed to defending the idea a manager should be given time to affect a difference. Many people have been critical of us pulling the trigger on managers too soon.

In this regard Pat Fenlon has become our very own Ebbe Skhovdal. Horrendous individual results but he gets us far in a couple of cup competitions. Poor league positions but still 'popular'.

Quite a conundrum.:cb

[Hibstrooper]

I think Fenlon knows what he needs to do, I'm just not convinced that he has skills to execute it anymore.

However I do think he can learn and there were a lot of interesting comments from him about looking at himself so I'm willing to give him one more chance to see if he learn from his mistakes.

[Chump]

I'm sure we would all be backing the manager from day 1? :confused:

Fair comment and 100 % right....wording not right and confirm that I will always support new managers but my opinion faith ran out a long time ago and I guess I'm asking why others have remained what appears to be unconditional??

[bigwheel]

There's a bit of the "Tam McManus" about Fenlon...you know what I mean - everyone wanted him to be really good, even when there weren't real signs of progress. He's quite a likeable fellow...and everyone was tired of change, we still are. But sometimes, you need to face facts and take action.

[H18sry]

Nice guy's do not always make good managers :wink:

[Aldo]

I think Fenlon knows what he needs to do, I'm just not convinced that he has skills to execute it anymore.

However I do think he can learn and there were a lot of interesting comments from him about looking at himself so I'm willing to give him one more chance to see if he learn from his mistakes.

HT I think that's why Nicholl has been brought in... Experience etc at this level.

[Chump]

First off the man took over a job that has become a poison chalice over the years...

I am a supporter of Hibernian Football Club and therefore will support the manager, players appointed by the board of directors fully, regardless of my liking of the manager or players.

PF took over a team with little or no confidence, bottom and 2nd bottom of SPL and managed to keep us up and get us to the SCF.

You mention HE made Ian Black look like a world beater... No That thug should if been red carded for his elbow right in front of Thompson... No excuses there tbh... We were beaten as a TEAM... They were better, stronger and Hungrier for it ENDOF. No excuses here but Thompson played a big part in that as well.

After getting beaten 3 nil at Tannadice folk wrote the team off but tbh after that we played some no bad football, but we were not consistent enough... We should of made top six but got to another SCF. However that 1st half performance alone should of got him sacked...

Beaten by a far superior Celtic Team but again played KT out if position etc.

Then we have Pre season... Went to Raith a few weeks ago and boy was it painful. Players out of position a Capt that isn't fit... No fluency...blah blah blah

Then Thurs can't say we don't know what happened there.... Players out if position Capt injured total and utter Capitulation.

I cannot back a manager who allows our team to get beaten 7 nil at home.

I have read many posts this last few days about PF and it saddens me to say this

He has had a massive job trying to turn the club round from top to bottom and I really do think the club are too big for him... I will say however that sacking him now wouldn't benefit the players but they are as much to blame as him.

Call it fence sitting but I was a supporter of him for his efforts to turn the club round but really think that it's beyond him.

The club needs stability no changing managers every other year.

I blame the board

Forget the fact that he should/shouldn't have been sent off. IMO he was allowed all the time in the world for 90 mins by PF's inability to stop and change issues on the park

[HFC07]

The biggest problem I feel is that we all want to give the manager time, he is working on tight budgets etc.
there is no rule book over at which point is acceptable to fire the manager.
I don't think any of us could be shot down for wanting Fenlon out and I feel he has ran out of time. I dont have any confidence that he could turn this around. I am stunned how little we have been involved in the transfer window, there are other teams in the league that have strengthened the squad where as we have done nothing.

[Aldo]

Forget the fact that he should/shouldn't have been sent off. IMO he was allowed all the time in the world for 90 mins by PF's inability to stop and change issues on the park

He did though. Claros was shocking and he took him off. PF could of taken at least half the team off... The players bottled it and didn't want it enough... They were the ones that should of stood up to the plate and got stuck in... They didn't. And we got beaten.

Edit: and yes it was PF that picked the team.

[hibs4thecup1988]

I'm sure we would all be backing the manager from day 1? :confused:

And boom! We have a winner! That is the problem all round!

I think the fact we never really knew about him, plus people had their heads set on other managers, we roll out this guy and everyone starts saying who is he, what has he done, he hasn't acheived a lot etc etc. Already he is on the back foot.

Do not get me wrong, I know we lost 5-1, 3-0, 7-0. You cannot just go round sacking managers left right and centre.

The problems all started with Collins leaving. I will NEVER forgive the players from that generation. I don't usually hold grudges, but when players go to the chairman to request show down talks because of training methods etc and the chairman agress then you are always going to have problems. That whole squad should be ashamed.

Fenlon is not the worst manager in my life time, far from it. He has got us to two cup finals, saved us from relegation 2 years ago. Ok last year in the 2nd half of the season it wasn't great, it never is. We lost on Thursday night 7-0 ok....to a team that exploited our weaknesses. I blame Thursday on Mcpake personally, saying he is fit, sliding into tackles then going off in a huff with a sore back once we lose a goal.

There needs to be MASSIVE changes in the club. The young teams do really well, win leagues, cups, go abroad and win leagues and cups, but none of them get the chance to progress.

I would stick with Fenlon personally, at this point in time who is going to want to manage the club, and if we sack him what is it going to cost us, another £400,000(guesstimate).

[Hibernia&Alba]

First off the man took over a job that has become a poison chalice over the years...

I am a supporter of Hibernian Football Club and therefore will support the manager, players appointed by the board of directors fully, regardless of my liking of the manager or players.

PF took over a team with little or no confidence, bottom and 2nd bottom of SPL and managed to keep us up and get us to the SCF.

You mention HE made Ian Black look like a world beater... No That thug should if been red carded for his elbow right in front of Thompson... No excuses there tbh... We were beaten as a TEAM... They were better, stronger and Hungrier for it ENDOF. No excuses here but Thompson played a big part in that as well.

After getting beaten 3 nil at Tannadice folk wrote the team off but tbh after that we played some no bad football, but we were not consistent enough... We should of made top six but got to another SCF. However that 1st half performance alone should of got him sacked...

Beaten by a far superior Celtic Team but again played KT out if position etc.

Then we have Pre season... Went to Raith a few weeks ago and boy was it painful. Players out of position a Capt that isn't fit... No fluency...blah blah blah

Then Thurs can't say we don't know what happened there.... Players out if position Capt injured total and utter Capitulation.

I cannot back a manager who allows our team to get beaten 7 nil at home.

I have read many posts this last few days about PF and it saddens me to say this

He has had a massive job trying to turn the club round from top to bottom and I really do think the club are too big for him... I will say however that sacking him now wouldn't benefit the players but they are as much to blame as him.

Call it fence sitting but I was a supporter of him for his efforts to turn the club round but really think that it's beyond him.

The club needs stability no changing managers every other year.

I blame the board

Good post there, Aldo, which provides a fair summary of his tenure so far. The situation when he was appointed was dire. We reached consecutive cup finals though were hammered in both. Last season we collapsed somewhat in the league from around January. Thursday night was shameful and leaves wee Pat on the brink. I'd still be willing to allow him to start the season and look at things after half a dozen or so games. Then the boardroom needs looking at too.

[IFONLY]

And boom! We have a winner! That is the problem all round!

I think the fact we never really knew about him, plus people had their heads set on other managers, we roll out this guy and everyone starts saying who is he, what has he done, he hasn't acheived a lot etc etc. Already he is on the back foot.

Do not get me wrong, I know we lost 5-1, 3-0, 7-0. You cannot just go round sacking managers left right and centre.

The problems all started with Collins leaving. I will NEVER forgive the players from that generation. I don't usually hold grudges, but when players go to the chairman to request show down talks because of training methods etc and the chairman agress then you are always going to have problems. That whole squad should be ashamed.

Fenlon is not the worst manager in my life time, far from it. He has got us to two cup finals, saved us from relegation 2 years ago. Ok last year in the 2nd half of the season it wasn't great, it never is. We lost on Thursday night 7-0 ok....to a team that exploited our weaknesses. I blame Thursday on Mcpake personally, saying he is fit, sliding into tackles then going off in a huff with a sore back once we lose a goal.

There needs to be MASSIVE changes in the club. The young teams do really well, win leagues, cups, go abroad and win leagues and cups, but none of them get the chance to progress.

I would stick with Fenlon personally, at this point in time who is going to want to manage the club, and if we sack him what is it going to cost us, another £400,000(guesstimate).


I agree with your sentiments but surely Petrie is as much to blame as the players.

[Moon unit]

I am genuinely interested to hear from those fans who have been Fenlon supporters from day one.....the songs each week at ER suggest there is a hardcore support (albeit waning now) who believe(d) he is/was doing good things at ER

What is it that you see about the team, performance, PF in general that warrants this support (applaudable but IMO undeserved)??

There has been enough said about his sacking in the past couple of days, which have been 100% deserved, but I'd like to hear from those who still believe he has something to offer (if there are any of you left)!!

For the record I'm not a PF supporter in the slightest, he lost all my respect the day he let Ian Black look like a world beater at Hampden......

.......defend away
Sadly I put it down to Hibs soft centre that has existed for many years now.... I firmly believe that NOT ONE other professional Scottish club would have lost by that score the other night!!! ..remember we have been spineless against Ayr Utd, QOS...the list goes on!

[Diclonius]

I think it's the things he said after the cup final. He said we are a soft touch and the club needed to change. He knows whats wrong but can't fix it. Sweeping changes at all levels needed now.

Exactly.

I've backed Fenlon for a lot longer than Mixu (completely clueless, at the time), Yogi (stuck to the same system when it was clear it wasn't working) and Calderwood (****) because unlike the previous three he really put himself forward as knowing what the issues were that had been plaguing us for years, and showed a real desire to fix it.

At 19:45 on Thursday I was completely behind Fenlon as Hibs manager but that result swung it for me - taking into account the Cup Final and other disastrous results (0-5 at home to Celtic, half of the Falkirk semi etc etc) it is clear that he does not have the ability to get us out of the hole we are in.

It really sickens me to say it but I really don't think Fenlon is the man to take Hibs forward any more.

[LioNeilMessi]

I thought we played some decent stuff last season... First half and post split only tbf. I know a lot was down to Griffiths but I think Leigh seems to have a lot of gratitude towards Pat for how he developed into a mature pro football player. To be honest I'm willing to draw a line under 9-0 and look forward towards the next month, a huge one for the club.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk 2

[Sir David Gray]

I am continuing to back him for quite a number of reasons;

1-I think he has the passion and the commitment to the job that is required to see us get to where we need to be. It's a refreshing change from the attitude of his predecessor who couldn't have cared less about the club.

2-I think he comes across as quite a humble man who is not afraid to shy away from responsibility and to admit when he gets things wrong himself.

3-He likes to engage with the supporters, regardless of the outcome of a match. If we win, he's always on the pitch at the end to acknowledge the fans and if we lose, he quite often addresses the fans during his interviews and when it goes horribly wrong, like it did on Thursday, he's not scared to apologise.

4-More of a general point and not so much about Fenlon himself but I believe it would do the club no good whatsoever to sack Fenlon now. We are just going to have the same upheaval that we've had over the past four or five seasons when we've had a new manager coming in. Getting a new manager in now basically means that we can write off the next 18 months and put it down to yet another settling in period.

Thursday night was a horrible experience for everyone involved with the club and we have to drastically improve on our performance levels and our application if we're going to do anything of note over the coming season. The way that we crumbled and allowed Malmo a free rein to do whatever they wanted to do was unacceptable. However I believe Fenlon has done enough over the past 12 months to give himself more time to try and get things right.

I said at the time of his arrival that he needed two years to get the club stabilised after the mess he inherited from Calderwood and to get us into a position where we should be looking to be. I have stated this time and time again whenever these kinds of threads have come up and I am sticking with it.

I am more than happy to give him until the end of 2013, which will mark his 2nd anniversary in charge, and that means he'll have had another full summer transfer window in which to do business. If we're down in the doldrums round about end of November/start of December then we will have to revisit things but until then he has my full support.

[Sudds_1]

There's a bit of the "Tam McManus" about Fenlon...you know what I mean - everyone wanted him to be really good, even when there weren't real signs of progress. He's quite a likeable fellow...and everyone was tired of change, we still are. But sometimes, you need to face facts and take action.

agreed.....trouble is the one person who has the power to make the changes has proved he's as much of a problem than that changes he makes!

[Big Sexy Dave]

I like him. He comes across as a good guy and some of his signings have been brilliant. However sometimes he's too ****ing defensive.

[yekimevol]

There is a simple reason why I still trust Fenlon as manager and that is under him progress have been made in my opinion.

When pat arrived he inherited a team that was the worst I’ve ever seen at Easter Road in their attitude and in there playing ability. I believe the club was in it biggest crisis since 98 when we were relegated and if we stuck with Calderwood we would have been.

So since he arrived why do I think, Pat has turned us around from the dark times of Calderwood?

Season One – Fenlon’s main goal and only goal is to ensure that we don’t get relegated into division one, He succeeded in this but he also gets us to the FINAL of the Scottish cup. We all know what happened it was, for many of us the worst day we have ever experienced as supporters. But that team should NEVER have been near the Scottish cup final, but yet pat got us there.

Season Two – Fenlon’s target for the season would have been a mid table finish, after the clubs last two finishes of 10th and 11th. He gets us to 7th place not the top six we all would have liked but CLEAR progress compared to the two seasons before. Pat continues bring in players with character such as Williams, Clancy and Maybury. Now Fenlon also manages to get the team BACK to the Scottish cup final, as much as Celtic overpowered us on the day it was a very good run against decent teams such as Hearts, Killie and Aberdeen.

I know people will talk about the finals as a negative as they hurt, but to get to finals are a positive that I think people are forgetting due to the pain.

Season Three – We have our European tie due to our cup final appearance, I don’t think the team is far enough along in fenlon’s rebuilding to compete against teams like malmo and to be honest I don’t think any team bar Celtic could have challenged them from the SPL. They knocked out rangers a few years ago in the champions league and have one the Swedish League in recent times. I know the home game as appalling and gutting but it can happen in football. Think of the Arsenal game a few years ago when Manchester United hammered them 8-2 or when Manchester City destroyed United 6-1.

[HFC 0-7]

I am continuing to back him for quite a number of reasons;

1-I think he has the passion and the commitment to the job that is required to see us get to where we need to be. It's a refreshing change from the attitude of his predecessor who couldn't have cared less about the club.

2-I think he comes across as quite a humble man who is not afraid to shy away from responsibility and to admit when he gets things wrong himself.

3-He likes to engage with the supporters, regardless of the outcome of a match. If we win, he's always on the pitch at the end to acknowledge the fans and if we lose, he quite often addresses the fans during his interviews and when it goes horribly wrong, like it did on Thursday, he's not scared to apologise.

4-More of a general point and not so much about Fenlon himself but I believe it would do the club no good whatsoever to sack Fenlon now. We are just going to have the same upheaval that we've had over the past four or five seasons when we've had a new manager coming in. Getting a new manager in now basically means that we can write off the next 18 months and put it down to yet another settling in period.

Thursday night was a horrible experience for everyone involved with the club and we have to drastically improve on our performance levels and our application if we're going to do anything of note over the coming season. The way that we crumbled and allowed Malmo a free rein to do whatever they wanted to do was unacceptable. However I believe Fenlon has done enough over the past 12 months to give himself more time to try and get things right.

I said at the time of his arrival that he needed two years to get the club stabilised after the mess he inherited from Calderwood and to get us into a position where we should be looking to be. I have stated this time and time again whenever these kinds of threads have come up and I am sticking with it.

I am more than happy to give him until the end of 2013, which will mark his 2nd anniversary in charge, and that means he'll have had another full summer transfer window in which to do business. If we're down in the doldrums round about end of November/start of December then we will have to revisit things but until then he has my full support.

Not having a go but your 4 points about why to stick by are not really, IMO, reasons why he will succeed. Pretty much every fan would have passion and commitment but pretty much all of them would be pish. Being humble and facing up to responsibility again will get you no where if you don't have the skills to spot a player and get the best out of your team. Although I like that he engages with fans it's not really high on my priority list of what skills a manager should have. I wouldn't care if I never heard from him if the team were playing well and winning.

Point 4, I disagree that binging in a new manager writes the next eighteen months off, you see plenty of managers coming in and making instant impacts. Simply ticking by a bad manager because we can't stomach going through another 'rebuild' is madness.

Fenlon himself highlighted a major flaw after the 5-1 fiasco, we were weak and easy beaten, push overs. Over a year and 2 transfer windows later we have a 7-0 defeat resulting in club and country records being beaten for the wrong reasons and we see the same problem.

how many horror results and performances will it take for someone to say enough is enough?

[jarre1875]

Geez have to ever posted with a feeling your gonna get hammered. As far as im concerned as long as Pat's our manager i feel i have no choice but to back him, the board do. At the end of the day everyone was hurt Thursday, yes it was europe yes it was important but if was the other way around us half way through a season them starting theirs would it have made any difference, maybe but at the end of the day we got pummelled and theres no doubt we will take pelters sooner rather than later. As for pre season friendlies they should let in for nowt on rolling basis some st holder some walk up lads as well as they are NO more than a fitness exercise. As for me im just looking at the european games as friendlies as the league starts next week and thats what its all about new manager or not. At the end of the day i support and love hibs not real madrid or man united, Hibs and only hibs and i get the feeling some folk forget its hibs we watch live no the others i have mentioned. GGTTH

[blackpoolhibs]

Exactly.

I've backed Fenlon for a lot longer than Mixu (completely clueless, at the time), Yogi (stuck to the same system when it was clear it wasn't working) and Calderwood (****) because unlike the previous three he really put himself forward as knowing what the issues were that had been plaguing us for years, and showed a real desire to fix it.

At 19:45 on Thursday I was completely behind Fenlon as Hibs manager but that result swung it for me - taking into account the Cup Final and other disastrous results (0-5 at home to Celtic, half of the Falkirk semi etc etc) it is clear that he does not have the ability to get us out of the hole we are in.

It really sickens me to say it but I really don't think Fenlon is the man to take Hibs forward any more.

My thoughts exactly.

[21.05.2016]

Unlike some folk, I wasn't calling for his head after the 2012 cup final. He had inherited an incredibly poor team full of gutless, uninterested no marks from Calderwood and he hadn't had a lot of time to ship out the deadwood and bring in his own players. He was brought in with the main objective of keeping us in the SPL which he did despite working with CC's nightmare of a team, getting to the final was a complete miracle, we were no where near ready to take on a match of that magnitude.

The following summer he did as he said and shifted out a lot of the dross in the squad and was his first real opportunity to start to build his own team and bring in players HE wanted. Despite loosing on the opening day to Dundee Utd, we went on to have a succesfull few months (sitting 1st or 2nd in October if I remember correctly) then of course facing hearts again in the cup which took a lot of guts to do considering just 6 months previously we had that nightmare final against them in the same competition and it had really looked as if we had turned a new leaf and Pat had built a much stronger side so obviously the fans were happy and backing him. It started to take a down turn at the start of the year, performances were poor and the results were not going our way, and again we found ourselves in the lower half of the table so understandably fans were starting to get a bit annoyed with Pat. I think the fantastic cup run papered over the cracks about though and prob saved it getting very unpleasant for Fenlon.

His tactics at times have been very negative but I always stood by Fenlon and was in the "we need to give him time" brigade but i'm afraid i'm just about out of patience now and just can't see Fenlon taking us to the level we really should be at.

[Expecting Rain]

Managerial failings preceded his appointment and subsequently saved his job after the derby final, the semi final against Falkirk was almost excruciating saved by Leigh and the emergence of Harris, the defeat to Malmo was almost inevitable but not in the magnitude of the scoreline, the positives were the league match away to Dundee United and Hearts and the cup game at Kilmarnock, if he survives i wish him all the best if not i will not be surprised.

[theonlywayisup]

This might sound odd, and is probably not the thread for it, but..............

......when we lost the away leg, I did think we would lose the home leg against Malmo (not 0-7 though). I also thought that we would struggle against Motherwell and probably lose. However, the game that would get our season back on track is the game at Tiny. An away win, and after that, I saw progress.

IF we lose the derby, PF has to go IMO, and you will see from my previous posts that I have been supportive of him..........that is until Thursday.

[IberianHibernian]

Pat has shown a few times that he can get the players to react when under pressure whether it`s during a game like in Falkirk semi or after a bad result like fighting performance in Derby after Tannadice flop or beating Celtic in a magnificent fighting performance just 3 days after losing to Ross County . I hope he`s given the chance to do it again .

[theonlywayisup]

Pat has shown a few times that he can get the players to react when under pressure whether it`s during a game like in Falkirk semi or after a bad result like fighting performance in Derby after Tannadice flop or beating Celtic in a magnificent fighting performance just 3 days after losing to Ross County . I hope he`s given the chance to do it again .

I always wondered, was that PF or the senior pros saying FFS we need to turn this round.

[ManBearPig]

I wonder if people aren't so much defending the man as opposed to defending the idea a manager should be given time to affect a difference. Many people have been critical of us pulling the trigger on managers too soon.

In this regard Pat Fenlon has become our very own Ebbe Skhovdal. Horrendous individual results but he gets us far in a couple of cup competitions. Poor league positions but still 'popular'.

Quite a conundrum.:cb

Agree 100% feel like another sacking wil only destabilise club further and two SCF although disappointing in the end was still an accomplishment. Hard times and choices ahead