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View Full Version : Hibs, a change of direction is needed.



blackpoolhibs
26-07-2013, 01:11 PM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.

matty_f
26-07-2013, 01:17 PM
I think getting a balance between what we do now and what you suggest is the way forward.
Would certainly be behind going for a European coach to overhaul what we do.

HibbySpurs
26-07-2013, 01:19 PM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.

Dont disagree with most of that, we desperately need some real bite in the team and that spending more on players who will be in the first team week in week out.

Sadly the ethos is that if we can find one gem every couple of seasons we can cash in by selling on and securing the clubs ongoing future....

Sadly what sort of a future that is, is questionable at times....

Setting aside last nights debacle our squad doesnt look bad on paper but there it seems to end as theres something lacking from it in terms of fight and determination....

The worst part for me is that in all honesty we should be in a position to walk off with 2nd place this season but after last night whats the chances of that?????

As I've said elsewhere I dont think today is the day to be sacking the manager but a poor start to the season and it's game over, however that then puts us right back to square 1 and we lose another potential good season to the record books of mid table mediocrity (at best).......

Scouse Hibee
26-07-2013, 01:22 PM
There wasn't a player in the Malmo team last night who didn't look fitter, faster, stronger, and more skillful than anyone they were up against. They all to a man looked comfortable on the ball and played simple, pressing, passing and moving football that we just couldn't cope with. I wonder what a foreign coach would make of our squad.

Andy74
26-07-2013, 01:26 PM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.

Got to say I'm not bothered about young players in the team, just ones that will win games so I'm mainly with you.

The problem is though that they fulfill a role for little money.

Could we pay for a squad that we have to bring in largely from elsewhere?

Keith_M
26-07-2013, 01:29 PM
I thought Fenlon had already tried bringing in players largely from abroad?

blackpoolhibs
26-07-2013, 01:39 PM
Got to say I'm not bothered about young players in the team, just ones that will win games so I'm mainly with you.

The problem is though that they fulfill a role for little money.

Could we pay for a squad that we have to bring in largely from elsewhere?

It wouldnt be done all at once, its a change of direction is signing policy and getting rid of the youth set up to afford better 1st team players i'd be in favour of.

There was not one player in our team that would get in Malmo's squad, young or old. Why we are persevering with sub standard dross is beyond me.

Get the new signings from countries like Sweden/Norway/Slovenia and the likes, players who are better than the scottish ones we are picking up now.

A decent up and coming foreign manager would be a good start in this process imo.

jacomo
26-07-2013, 01:41 PM
I remain convinced that developing our own players is the only sustainable way forward for Hibs. But those days when people were talking about us as a producer of talent seem a long, long time ago now.

Something fundamental is wrong. Last night's result (and D Wotherspoon playing an integral role in St J's success) just make it all the more stark.

The Falcon
26-07-2013, 01:46 PM
There wasn't a player in the Malmo team last night who didn't look fitter, faster, stronger, and more skillful than anyone they were up against. They all to a man looked comfortable on the ball and played simple, pressing, passing and moving football that we just couldn't cope with. I wonder what a foreign coach would make of our squad.

As was being said after our encounter with Maribor a few years ago.

Hibby Bairn
26-07-2013, 01:47 PM
I see young boys playing football every week in Scotland who are very good players at age 10, 11, 12 and 13. Pass/Move/Control.

Something happens with them between that age and 19/20/21 where they/we do not help them fulfill their potential.

A European coach and top to bottom overhaul of what we are trying to do might help solve that. But it will take 10 years.

But I think it needs to happen. Now.

TrinityHibs
26-07-2013, 01:47 PM
I thought Fenlon had already tried bringing in players largely from abroad?

I also fairly sure Fenlon is not only foreign but also European. It must be jonnyforeigners we're talking about:greengrin

Speedway
26-07-2013, 01:48 PM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.

G, as Hibs fans we bemoan the lack of things we haven't got, players with dig leave us wanting silky players, silky players, leave us wanting some backbone and so on.

If we did as you suggested, which would be akin to writing off the EM policy as a failure, I'm not convinced that anything would change.

What we saw from Malmo was a team effort of committed professionals with hunger and urgency. Unless you're advocating the removal of all Scots mentality from influencial positions within the club, I don't think a couple of swedes or belgians coming in, including a coach, would make the slightest difference.

Collins tried to show us the continental way, we showed him rebellion. He signed Noubissie.

The problem is deeper than that.

Crazyhorse
26-07-2013, 01:48 PM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.

Agree with much of this. But we went down the 'we'll produce our own at East Mains route etc etc'. So far that's been an expensive mistake unfortunately.

Stringer
26-07-2013, 01:49 PM
I remain convinced that developing our own players is the only sustainable way forward for Hibs. But those days when people were talking about us as a producer of talent seem a long, long time ago now.

Something fundamental is wrong. Last night's result (and D Wotherspoon playing an integral role in St J's success) just make it all the more stark.

This. The last time I enjoyed watching Hibs was the 'golden generation' years. A core of young players is the key.

Wotherspoon was one of those players that I enjoyed watching. But he was played out of position and lost his confidence.

IWasThere2016
26-07-2013, 01:49 PM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.


Got to say I'm not bothered about young players in the team, just ones that will win games so I'm mainly with you.

The problem is though that they fulfill a role for little money.

Could we pay for a squad that we have to bring in largely from elsewhere?


It wouldnt be done all at once, its a change of direction is signing policy and getting rid of the youth set up to afford better 1st team players i'd be in favour of.

There was not one player in our team that would get in Malmo's squad, young or old. Why we are persevering with sub standard dross is beyond me.

Get the new signings from countries like Sweden/Norway/Slovenia and the likes, players who are better than the scottish ones we are picking up now.

A decent up and coming foreign manager would be a good start in this process imo.

My brother and I had a similar convo last night at the game. It was a good way to pass the time. I agree 100% with the OP. :top marks

One question though, do Scandinavians do Chief Execs too? :wink: :greengrin

Andy74
26-07-2013, 01:52 PM
G, as Hibs fans we bemoan the lack of things we haven't got, players with dig leave us wanting silky players, silky players, leave us wanting some backbone and so on.

If we did as you suggested, which would be akin to writing off the EM policy as a failure, I'm not convinced that anything would change.

What we saw from Malmo was a team effort of committed professionals with hunger and urgency. Unless you're advocating the removal of all Scots mentality from influencial positions within the club, I don't think a couple of swedes or belgians coming in, including a coach, would make the slightest difference.

Collins tried to show us the continental way, we showed him rebellion. He signed Noubissie.

The problem is deeper than that.

East Mains is a training centre for the first team so it isn't there to churn out youngsters. Whether it works for the first team is another matter but still..

Speedway
26-07-2013, 01:53 PM
East Mains is a training centre for the first team so it isn't there to churn out youngsters. Whether it works for the first team is another matter but still..

East Mains is the nerve centre of our entire youth effort.

HibbySpurs
26-07-2013, 01:54 PM
G, as Hibs fans we bemoan the lack of things we haven't got, players with dig leave us wanting silky players, silky players, leave us wanting some backbone and so on.

If we did as you suggested, which would be akin to writing off the EM policy as a failure, I'm not convinced that anything would change.

What we saw from Malmo was a team effort of committed professionals with hunger and urgency. Unless you're advocating the removal of all Scots mentality from influencial positions within the club, I don't think a couple of swedes or belgians coming in, including a coach, would make the slightest difference.

Collins tried to show us the continental way, we showed him rebellion. He signed Noubissie.

The problem is deeper than that.

The bit in bold is the real starting point of our troubles, we've just gone totally backwards since then. Whilst I'm still prepared to give PF a chance to turn this around over the first few weeks of the season I'd have JC back right now if possible.....

Had potential to be a great manager and we let him slip away because the board wouldnt back him...

Aldoo
26-07-2013, 01:55 PM
Something happens with them between that age and 19/20/21 where they/we do not help them fulfill their potential.

Hmmmmmm, something happens to them at ages 19/20/21, now what in this country could that possibly be??????

GreenPJ
26-07-2013, 01:59 PM
Part of the problem is that any 'football' they do get taught at an early age or through the youths or a style of play is not the same as it is in the 1st team. I think this was one of JCs big issues in wanting control of the football strategy all they way from youth through to first team so you knew what you were trying to achieve in terms of style and it wasn't a sudden change when kids moved through the ranks.

Finding a coach/manager with a clear vision of how he wants to play football (preferably attractive football) and putting them in charge of development all the way through the club is not a lot to ask or expect. Getting the right man is the difficult bit but at the moment we are doing neither.

Captain Trips
26-07-2013, 02:00 PM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.

I am not against this at all BH my direction that I had hoped we went down is to make the Manger the total key figure at club a manager with a CV at a level even above ours. A manager with a reputation that we all have heard of so that there are no excuses only the manager himself can be blamed if it didnt work.

I am talking in the sort of Strachan type envelope not saying him but of that type won things etc, of course we would have to pay extremely well but I think worth it. Pipe dream but that would be my route.

blackpoolhibs
26-07-2013, 02:01 PM
G, as Hibs fans we bemoan the lack of things we haven't got, players with dig leave us wanting silky players, silky players, leave us wanting some backbone and so on.

If we did as you suggested, which would be akin to writing off the EM policy as a failure, I'm not convinced that anything would change.

What we saw from Malmo was a team effort of committed professionals with hunger and urgency. Unless you're advocating the removal of all Scots mentality from influencial positions within the club, I don't think a couple of swedes or belgians coming in, including a coach, would make the slightest difference.

Collins tried to show us the continental way, we showed him rebellion. He signed Noubissie.

The problem is deeper than that.

East Mains would still be used, just used better with better players imo. The Scottish way is ****ed in my opinion, we are not producing player like they are in europe or scandinavia. We are a million miles behind them now in terms of technique skill and even tactical knowledge.

Physically they are bigger and stronger, and i don't see any of this changing in the near future. We are nowhere near matching Malmo, and nowhere near reaching the league stages of the europa cup.

We can carry on trying to produce our own players, and that could take a very long time if ever to do this. Or we could go the way i suggest, and go foreign.

It will of course affect the national team, although saying that its not something we worry ourselves about too much anyway.

Looking at England, all the top teams are flooded with the best players from around the world. They have seen that the English players are not good enough for them and gone abroad for their talent.

I feel we should do the same, until such times as the young Scottish player is as good as the players we would be bringing in.

Fife-Hibee
26-07-2013, 02:06 PM
Sell east mains, put the money into the team. Have the team running up and down Arthur seat, it seemed to work ok in the past. East mains has done nothing since the day it opened !!

Speedway
26-07-2013, 02:09 PM
The bit in bold is the real starting point of our troubles, we've just gone totally backwards since then. Whilst I'm still prepared to give PF a chance to turn this around over the first few weeks of the season I'd have JC back right now if possible.....

Had potential to be a great manager and we let him slip away because the board wouldnt back him...

As demonstrated by the limitless success that he's had since.

Leishy1995
26-07-2013, 02:09 PM
Having watched Hibs Ladies play in their Premier team and second division team, they do what some suggest,

They both set up the team with 3 central players with each having clear jobs and play a similar style, I'd bet it is similar throughout and they are successful.

Also, every single hibs ladies age group right through to under 11s has played in a national cup final this season. The mentality is to win as much as they can, winning is a habit they want. That set up is working for the girls, and they don't get paid. Don't get 1st class training facilities. But they win. And are a bench mark to other clubs in the ladies game up here.

If John Collins or someone else managed this at Hibs, I'd be happy.

Weir7
26-07-2013, 02:11 PM
East Mains is a training centre for the first team so it isn't there to churn out youngsters. Whether it works for the first team is another matter but still..

Biggest load of urine I've read. EM is where the pro youths are based. The majority of time EM is used to coach youths.

jeffers
26-07-2013, 02:15 PM
Personally I think it boils down to appointing the right manager, doesn't matter where he is from. Take Mowbray as an example, sure he inherited the best crop of youngsters I have seen at Hibs, but he supplemented them with Boozy, Shiels, Murphy, Killen, Michael Stewart....I could go on. His team were fit and played in a way I have never seen under Fenlon.

Despite all the posts saying we were making progress under Fenlon, it's looking once again like we have appointed the wrong man. But Motherwell and St Johnstone to take two examples seem to consistently get it right in appointing British managers. Maybe we should ask their chairman to appoint our next one......

Leishy1995
26-07-2013, 02:17 PM
Personally I think it boils down to appointing the right manager, doesn't matter where he is from. Take Mowbray as an example, sure he inherited the best crop of youngsters I have seen at Hibs, but he supplemented them with Boozy, Shiels, Murphy, Killen, Michael Stewart....I could go on. His team were fit and played in a way I have never seen under Fenlon.

Despite all the posts saying we were making progress under Fenlon, it's looking once again like we have appointed the wrong man. But Motherwell and St Johnstone to take two examples seem to consistently get it right in appointing British managers. Maybe we should ask their chairman to appoint our next one......

Just on Murphy, he left hibs at 23. He was young and at the point of joining was 3 years younger than McGivern, with less experience. The rest of your post is sound to me.

scoopyboy
26-07-2013, 02:20 PM
Sell east mains, put the money into the team. Have the team running up and down Arthur seat, it seemed to work ok in the past. East mains has done nothing since the day it opened !!

And there is the root of all Scottish football declining.

It worked for us 30 years ago so it will still be ok to do it now.

Years ago the Dutch and Scandanavians were light years behind us but whilst they built training centres us Scots laughed at them, now we can't keep up with them due to the old Scottish heads being buried in the sand.

I have watched Hibs thump Malmo 6-0 in the UEFA cup but by god how things have changed since then.

Still as you say run up and down Arthur's Seat a few times and we will be back at the forefront of European Football.

Andy74
26-07-2013, 02:30 PM
East Mains is the nerve centre of our entire youth effort.

Some of the youth coaching is there, some isn't.

It's not a youth academy though, it is primarily a training centre for the first team.

It keeps getting quoted as if it should be producing youths. There may be some coaching done there but it is not its main use.

blackpoolhibs
26-07-2013, 02:31 PM
And there is the root of all Scottish football declining.

It worked for us 30 years ago so it will still be ok to do it now.

Years ago the Dutch and Scandanavians were light years behind us but whilst they built training centres us Scots laughed at them, now we can't keep up with them due to the old Scottish heads being buried in the sand.

I have watched Hibs thump Malmo 6-0 in the UEFA cup but by god how things have changed since then.

Still as you say run up and down Arthur's Seat a few times and we will be back at the forefront of European Football.

Like you scoops, i was at that 6-0 win against Malmo all those years ago. Its frightening how much they have improved and we have regressed.

We are not producing footballers like we did, and the ones we do produce are weaker smaller and poorer than we have done in the past.

Why is this, well there are many reasons but the facts are we are not bringing through decent quality players now compared to countries we used to spank?

I say if you can't beat them join them, and hopefully the foreign players with better quality would rub off on the Scottish players coming through.

HibbySpurs
26-07-2013, 02:33 PM
As demonstrated by the limitless success that he's had since.

True but I did say "potential":wink:......

pacorosssco
26-07-2013, 02:40 PM
I see young boys playing football every week in Scotland who are very good players at age 10, 11, 12 and 13. Pass/Move/Control.

Something happens with them between that age and 19/20/21 where they/we do not help them fulfill their potential.

A European coach and top to bottom overhaul of what we are trying to do might help solve that. But it will take 10 years.

But I think it needs to happen. Now.

Its always been this case something goes wrong at 19-22 because we compete till that age group. I think it is coaching and fitness. Foreign players work very much on strength which means they aren't muscles off ball from a young age and are ready for first team quicker and in turn gain experience quicker making them better. Not a hibs problem though but a UK one

joe breezy
26-07-2013, 02:43 PM
Like you scoops, i was at that 6-0 win against Malmo all those years ago. Its frightening how much they have improved and we have regressed.

We are not producing footballers like we did, and the ones we do produce are weaker smaller and poorer than we have done in the past.

Why is this, well there are many reasons but the facts are we are not bringing through decent quality players now compared to countries we used to spank?

I say if you can't beat them join them, and hopefully the foreign players with better quality would rub off on the Scottish players coming through.


I find it hard to believe that Scotland is now producing smaller football players - human beings are getting taller in all developed countries, including Scotland, but Scottish people are on average smaller than in other countries such as Holland and Sweden.

pacorosssco
26-07-2013, 02:52 PM
I find it hard to believe that Scotland is now producing smaller football players - human beings are getting taller in all developed countries, including Scotland, but Scottish people are on average smaller than in other countries such as Holland and Sweden.


Look at the dutch team though not all tall players. If anything we say small players dont make it but we arent producing big players. No CH's of any class for a while and nothing much over 6ft in any position. No big CF or midfield enforcers either

Finbar
26-07-2013, 02:54 PM
A change of direction is needed, I suppose deciding on the right direction is the thing. When Mowbray was manager and even more so with Collins, Hibs were trying to do things differently to most other teams in Scotland.

It didn't always work but when it did it was exciting, and because we were trying something different we had the potential to achieve more than other teams on similar budgets.

If I was Pat I would be arranging to go over to Malmo and spend some time seeing how they train, because what they did last night was simple, effective, modern football and that's what Hibs should be aiming for.

Speedway
26-07-2013, 02:57 PM
In terms of a change of direction that could be realised fairly quickly, the lowest rate of teeth gnashing that I've ever known on here was in the period where we played 'fast flowing attacking football with a cutting edge.'

Now we still found plenty to moan about but given how often we hark on about it, perhaps the team could be set out that way to entertain the crowd and build from there?

I know it's a dream.

Finbar
26-07-2013, 03:05 PM
I don't think it's so much about being entertaining as just keeping up with modern tactics. If that makes it better to watch then great.

Unseen work
26-07-2013, 03:11 PM
It doesn't matter where they are from ffs! We've signed Craig who is very good technically, griffiths is Scottish, riordan, Wotherspoon, fletcher etc are all Scottish and very good technically. I don't care where a player is from it's not that, that makes them good on the ball etc. theirs plenty of technically good Scottish, British players. What we need to learn as that with players like them same as zemmama Benji etc is they can be very frustrating as they try make a difference whenever they have the ball by creating a chance. We need to learn not to knock their confidence straight away and hounding them out sayin their a luxury etc we need boys that work hard

truehibernian
26-07-2013, 03:24 PM
It's not a drastic change in direction we need, more a drastic change in professionalism on and off the pitch.

I know it's a different sport and a single person sport, but I was utterly intrigued by Andy Murray's training regime and rise to winning a major. Take out the fact he has a team around him, but examine his daily routine as a sportsman - this could easily be mapped onto a footballer's regime. His diet, which he didn't like, he accepts and tolerates because he knows it is what is required to win. He does not drink and quipped that after a flute of champagne he was drunk and didn't like the feeling. He has a steady relationship and doesn't like the bright lights or late nights.

Then look at the average (in all senses of the word) footballer, young or old - he uses Twitter more than he trains, and uses it irresponsibly by and large, an injury is always an injury that perhaps other sports would play through (in other words I'm convinced some players are 'at it'). He sees Nando's as part of a daily routine and drinking cocktails in Tiger Lily and Lulu as a 'neccessary evil' of being a pro footballer. Some smoke, recent Hibs players have too. They train together for a ridiculously small amount of time - they do not perform a full days work (training, motivation, team building, tactics, getting to know the opposition).

Speaking to certain people today I'm told certain players are utterly crest fallen, particularly the young ones. From a footballing perspective I'm afraid Calderwood and now Fenlon seem averse to real pace and the 'luxury footballer' - having 2 or 3 players who may frustrate on one hand but dazzle the next. I genuinely cannot remember when Hibernian had two or three wingers or old fashioned outside rights/lefts who could get a ball and have absolutely no fear when taking men on - 'Well had that in Ojamma, Humphrey and Murphy and laterly McFadden. It's clear McCall likes width and pace. McInnes has added to the Dons with a couple of wide men and some pace. St Johnstone have Hasselbaink and May. Dundee Utd have Stuart Armstrong, Goodwillie, GMS and Gauld.

You win games by scoring goals - it's that simple. But that is my mindset and it was when I played football. Attack, score, entertain, get on the ball. Pat seems to want to build a side 'difficult to beat' - this already sends out, to me, that you are a counter attack minded manager and provides your opposition with a terrific incentive to attack - especially if you know Hibs concede easily.

My message to Pat and the Board - sign 5 players - 2 genuine wingers (not to be played anywhere else on the pitch), a quick striker, 1 very attack minded midfielder, and a central defender who is mobile.

Pace, pace, pace, pace and pace.............all over the pitch. The other things on the checklist, fans, stadium, training centre, youth set up are all in a fantastic place.

blackpoolhibs
26-07-2013, 03:28 PM
It's not a drastic change in direction we need, more a drastic change in professionalism on and off the pitch.

I know it's a different sport and a single person sport, but I was utterly intrigued by Andy Murray's training regime and rise to winning a major. Take out the fact he has a team around him, but examine his daily routine as a sportsman - this could easily be mapped onto a footballer's regime. His diet, which he didn't like, he accepts and tolerates because he knows it is what is required to win. He does not drink and quipped that after a flute of champagne he was drunk and didn't like the feeling. He has a steady relationship and doesn't like the bright lights or late nights.

Then look at the average (in all senses of the word) footballer, young or old - he uses Twitter more than he trains, and uses it irresponsibly by and large, an injury is always an injury that perhaps other sports would play through (in other words I'm convinced some players are 'at it'). He sees Nando's as part of a daily routine and drinking cocktails in Tiger Lily and Lulu as a 'neccessary evil' of being a pro footballer. Some smoke, recent Hibs players have too. They train together for a ridiculously small amount of time - they do not perform a full days work (training, motivation, team building, tactics, getting to know the opposition).

Speaking to certain people today I'm told certain players are utterly crest fallen, particularly the young ones. From a footballing perspective I'm afraid Calderwood and now Fenlon seem averse to real pace and the 'luxury footballer' - having 2 or 3 players who may frustrate on one hand but dazzle the next. I genuinely cannot remember when Hibernian had two or three wingers or old fashioned outside rights/lefts who could get a ball and have absolutely no fear when taking men on - 'Well had that in Ojamma, Humphrey and Murphy and laterly McFadden. It's clear McCall likes width and pace. McInnes has added to the Dons with a couple of wide men and some pace. St Johnstone have Hasselbaink and May. Dundee Utd have Stuart Armstrong, Goodwillie, GMS and Gauld.

You win games by scoring goals - it's that simple. But that is my mindset and it was when I played football. Attack, score, entertain, get on the ball. Pat seems to want to build a side 'difficult to beat' - this already sends out, to me, that you are a counter attack minded manager and provides your opposition with a terrific incentive to attack - especially if you know Hibs concede easily.

My message to Pat and the Board - sign 5 players - 2 genuine wingers (not to be played anywhere else on the pitch), a quick striker, 1 very attack minded midfielder, and a central defender who is mobile.

Pace, pace, pace, pace and pace.............all over the pitch. The other things on the checklist, fans, stadium, training centre, youth set up are all in a fantastic place.

Where are these Scottish players you talk of?

Unseen work
26-07-2013, 03:29 PM
It's not a drastic change in direction we need, more a drastic change in professionalism on and off the pitch.

I know it's a different sport and a single person sport, but I was utterly intrigued by Andy Murray's training regime and rise to winning a major. Take out the fact he has a team around him, but examine his daily routine as a sportsman - this could easily be mapped onto a footballer's regime. His diet, which he didn't like, he accepts and tolerates because he knows it is what is required to win. He does not drink and quipped that after a flute of champagne he was drunk and didn't like the feeling. He has a steady relationship and doesn't like the bright lights or late nights.

Then look at the average (in all senses of the word) footballer, young or old - he uses Twitter more than he trains, and uses it irresponsibly by and large, an injury is always an injury that perhaps other sports would play through (in other words I'm convinced some players are 'at it'). He sees Nando's as part of a daily routine and drinking cocktails in Tiger Lily and Lulu as a 'neccessary evil' of being a pro footballer. Some smoke, recent Hibs players have too. They train together for a ridiculously small amount of time - they do not perform a full days work (training, motivation, team building, tactics, getting to know the opposition).

Speaking to certain people today I'm told certain players are utterly crest fallen, particularly the young ones. From a footballing perspective I'm afraid Calderwood and now Fenlon seem averse to real pace and the 'luxury footballer' - having 2 or 3 players who may frustrate on one hand but dazzle the next. I genuinely cannot remember when Hibernian had two or three wingers or old fashioned outside rights/lefts who could get a ball and have absolutely no fear when taking men on - 'Well had that in Ojamma, Humphrey and Murphy and laterly McFadden. It's clear McCall likes width and pace. McInnes has added to the Dons with a couple of wide men and some pace. St Johnstone have Hasselbaink and May. Dundee Utd have Stuart Armstrong, Goodwillie, GMS and Gauld.

You win games by scoring goals - it's that simple. But that is my mindset and it was when I played football. Attack, score, entertain, get on the ball. Pat seems to want to build a side 'difficult to beat' - this already sends out, to me, that you are a counter attack minded manager and provides your opposition with a terrific incentive to attack - especially if you know Hibs concede easily.

My message to Pat and the Board - sign 5 players - 2 genuine wingers (not to be played anywhere else on the pitch), a quick striker, 1 very attack minded midfielder, and a central defender who is mobile.

Pace, pace, pace, pace and pace.............all over the pitch. The other things on the checklist, fans, stadium, training centre, youth set up are all in a fantastic place.

Would love to see that sort of professionalism at hibs but that will never happen. Murray just won Wimbledon and is no 2?? In the world or something like that, he's more comparable to ronaldo who has a team round him making him the best he can in every aspect. Hibs are more on par with someone like his brother.

truehibernian
26-07-2013, 03:40 PM
Where are these Scottish players you talk of?

I can tell you two right away - Danny Carmichael (QotS) and Michael Tidser - Scougall of Livingston as well. Danny Swanson perhaps. And I never restricted it to Scottish players - the market in Europe is vast and if 'Well can uncover Ojamma from Estonia, then Hibs could just as easily find a wee gem too.

Players are there if there is an appetite to get them - Pat seems to want a very different kind of player and most certainly doesn't play with genuine wingers in any of his sides.

Eternal Hibbie
26-07-2013, 03:43 PM
It's not a drastic change in direction we need, more a drastic change in professionalism on and off the pitch.

I know it's a different sport and a single person sport, but I was utterly intrigued by Andy Murray's training regime and rise to winning a major. Take out the fact he has a team around him, but examine his daily routine as a sportsman - this could easily be mapped onto a footballer's regime. His diet, which he didn't like, he accepts and tolerates because he knows it is what is required to win. He does not drink and quipped that after a flute of champagne he was drunk and didn't like the feeling. He has a steady relationship and doesn't like the bright lights or late nights.

Then look at the average (in all senses of the word) footballer, young or old - he uses Twitter more than he trains, and uses it irresponsibly by and large, an injury is always an injury that perhaps other sports would play through (in other words I'm convinced some players are 'at it'). He sees Nando's as part of a daily routine and drinking cocktails in Tiger Lily and Lulu as a 'neccessary evil' of being a pro footballer. Some smoke, recent Hibs players have too. They train together for a ridiculously small amount of time - they do not perform a full days work (training, motivation, team building, tactics, getting to know the opposition).

Speaking to certain people today I'm told certain players are utterly crest fallen, particularly the young ones. From a footballing perspective I'm afraid Calderwood and now Fenlon seem averse to real pace and the 'luxury footballer' - having 2 or 3 players who may frustrate on one hand but dazzle the next. I genuinely cannot remember when Hibernian had two or three wingers or old fashioned outside rights/lefts who could get a ball and have absolutely no fear when taking men on - 'Well had that in Ojamma, Humphrey and Murphy and laterly McFadden. It's clear McCall likes width and pace. McInnes has added to the Dons with a couple of wide men and some pace. St Johnstone have Hasselbaink and May. Dundee Utd have Stuart Armstrong, Goodwillie, GMS and Gauld.

You win games by scoring goals - it's that simple. But that is my mindset and it was when I played football. Attack, score, entertain, get on the ball. Pat seems to want to build a side 'difficult to beat' - this already sends out, to me, that you are a counter attack minded manager and provides your opposition with a terrific incentive to attack - especially if you know Hibs concede easily.

My message to Pat and the Board - sign 5 players - 2 genuine wingers (not to be played anywhere else on the pitch), a quick striker, 1 very attack minded midfielder, and a central defender who is mobile.

Pace, pace, pace, pace and pace.............all over the pitch. The other things on the checklist, fans, stadium, training centre, youth set up are all in a fantastic place.

Please forward this post to Messrs Fenlon and Petrie asap. :thumbup:

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

Finbar
26-07-2013, 03:44 PM
Was anyone able to keep count of how many goals Malmo scored by getting to the by line and cutting the ball back? I lost count after three.

truehibernian
26-07-2013, 03:45 PM
Please forward this post to Messrs Fenlon and Petrie asap. :thumbup:

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

I'll do better than that mate, I will tell Pat when I see him next :agree:

bigwheel
26-07-2013, 04:10 PM
It's not a drastic change in direction we need, more a drastic change in professionalism on and off the pitch.

I know it's a different sport and a single person sport, but I was utterly intrigued by Andy Murray's training regime and rise to winning a major. Take out the fact he has a team around him, but examine his daily routine as a sportsman - this could easily be mapped onto a footballer's regime. His diet, which he didn't like, he accepts and tolerates because he knows it is what is required to win. He does not drink and quipped that after a flute of champagne he was drunk and didn't like the feeling. He has a steady relationship and doesn't like the bright lights or late nights.

Then look at the average (in all senses of the word) footballer, young or old - he uses Twitter more than he trains, and uses it irresponsibly by and large, an injury is always an injury that perhaps other sports would play through (in other words I'm convinced some players are 'at it'). He sees Nando's as part of a daily routine and drinking cocktails in Tiger Lily and Lulu as a 'neccessary evil' of being a pro footballer. Some smoke, recent Hibs players have too. They train together for a ridiculously small amount of time - they do not perform a full days work (training, motivation, team building, tactics, getting to know the opposition).

Speaking to certain people today I'm told certain players are utterly crest fallen, particularly the young ones. From a footballing perspective I'm afraid Calderwood and now Fenlon seem averse to real pace and the 'luxury footballer' - having 2 or 3 players who may frustrate on one hand but dazzle the next. I genuinely cannot remember when Hibernian had two or three wingers or old fashioned outside rights/lefts who could get a ball and have absolutely no fear when taking men on - 'Well had that in Ojamma, Humphrey and Murphy and laterly McFadden. It's clear McCall likes width and pace. McInnes has added to the Dons with a couple of wide men and some pace. St Johnstone have Hasselbaink and May. Dundee Utd have Stuart Armstrong, Goodwillie, GMS and Gauld.

You win games by scoring goals - it's that simple. But that is my mindset and it was when I played football. Attack, score, entertain, get on the ball. Pat seems to want to build a side 'difficult to beat' - this already sends out, to me, that you are a counter attack minded manager and provides your opposition with a terrific incentive to attack - especially if you know Hibs concede easily.

My message to Pat and the Board - sign 5 players - 2 genuine wingers (not to be played anywhere else on the pitch), a quick striker, 1 very attack minded midfielder, and a central defender who is mobile.

Pace, pace, pace, pace and pace.............all over the pitch. The other things on the checklist, fans, stadium, training centre, youth set up are all in a fantastic place.

Your points around training and nutrition are well made....you see the young players int e west stand with chips and pizza....you would never see a young pro athlete eating that stuff ....

HibeeHutch
26-07-2013, 04:15 PM
Should we turn our attention away from the usual managerial debate to one centred on investment and culture?

Firstly, what is the high level goal or vision of our club? Surely this should be clear to fans. I don't believe it is - and even then it's probably not visionary enough.

Investment: surely it's time to actively seek fresh investors in the club to take us to another level? I know Petrie and Farmer may have received approaches in the past and will want to protect their interests and the interests of the club; but surely now is the time to strategically seek new investment. I don't mean a wholesale takeover, just additional financial muscle and vision.

Culture: what the **** has happened to the club over 35 years (give or take a couple of short lived eras that papered over the very wide cracks). I hate to say it but since following Hibs they have always been considered 'losers', magnified by the irony that we are one of Scotland's four biggest clubs. Surely this culture of 'loserism' has gone on too long? What contributed to it and why has it been 'accepted' by us for so long? Are we too comfortable with that status now?

RIP
26-07-2013, 04:16 PM
The change of direction has to come from the top down.

Bottom up it's simply tickling around the edges

CropleyWasGod
26-07-2013, 04:21 PM
Should we turn our attention away from the usual managerial debate to one centred on investment and culture?

Firstly, what is the high level goal or vision of our club? Surely this should be clear to fans. I don't believe it is - and even then it's probably not visionary enough.

Investment: surely it's time to actively seek fresh investors in the club to take us to another level? I know Petrie and Farmer may have received approaches in the past and will want to protect their interests and the interests of the club; but surely now is the time to strategically seek new investment. I don't mean a wholesale takeover, just additional financial muscle and vision.




I'll be the Devil's Advocate on this part.

We already spend what we take in and (in the last accounts) more. What would a new investor bring that would change that? What would a new investor hope to get as a return, and how would they get it?

For me, it's not WHAT we spend, it's HOW we spend it.

Hibby Bairn
26-07-2013, 04:25 PM
I would say an ambition of Hibs should be:-

To produce individuals and a team capable of competing regularly in the group stages of the Europa League.

Everything else we do should flow from that high level aim.

WhileTheChief..
26-07-2013, 04:25 PM
For me, it's not WHAT we spend, it's HOW we spend it.

Spot on. I think Blackpool Hibs made the point that maybe we should stop spending money in youth development and instead spend everything we can on established players from further afield.

Gotta be worth a try. Everything else has failed miserably.

jacomo
26-07-2013, 04:28 PM
It's not a drastic change in direction we need, more a drastic change in professionalism on and off the pitch.

:agree:

Andy Murray was identified as someone with huge potential early in his career, but was coming up short against the top players.

He went away and worked with sports psychologists and top coaches, and trained so hard that he changed his body shape.

The rewards on offer for footballers at the very top are the equal of tennis - why can't Scottish footballers grasp that they are professional athletes above all else?

Notable exceptions include Kenny Miller and Steven Fletcher, who have worked hard, stayed away from trouble and built successful careers.

RIP
26-07-2013, 04:29 PM
In April - members of the Let's Work Together group presented a piece of work to the Hiberbian Board

This project was designed by supporters in partnership with management.

The group was called Vision and the programme was entitled "Winning - The Hibernian Way"

There will be an update at our next meeting Wed 7th August at West Stand 6.30 pm to 8.30 pm

All supporters are welcome to attend

Andy74
26-07-2013, 04:53 PM
Investment and football. Bad times.

Clubs need to spend what they get in regularly. Focus should be on sustained growth of regular income.

Part/Time Supporter
27-07-2013, 06:33 AM
I'm not convinced bringing our own talent through is the right thing at this minute in time. I'd argue that we'd be better doing what St Johnstone do, and put all our money into the 1st team squad, and pay more for them.

I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.

Plus they all want to play football the right way. We'd also need a foreign coach, as the clowns in this country would rather hoof the ball as far as the can up the park, and i for one am fed up with this.

There you go, pick the bones out of that.

I see the Hibs twitter account was getting quite excited late last night about the youths winning the Foyle Cup. Now I'm sure that's a good achievement for them, but really nobody gives a ****. The thread on here about the Foyle Cup has all of four replies. The only relevance it has is if some of the players in the youths develop into good first team players.

There have been some more encouraging signs lately in this regard, but the reality is that Hibs haven't produced a first choice player (someone playing 30+ games in a season) since Hanlon became a regular. Hibs haven't produced a player they have sold for a fee since Steven Fletcher, who made his first team debut in 2003/04. I'm sure that Rod will still have a bias towards funding the youth system because of what it produced 10 years ago, but that is an extremely poor return since then.

bigwheel
27-07-2013, 07:13 AM
The overall premise of this thread I.e. "stop spending on youth development and bring in players from Scandinavia , Slovenia etc" is simply wrong. Firstly, what do we think these clubs in these areas are doing. It is through their coaching and development programmes that they have a growing group of talent with strong technique. The great successful clubs have long since adopted youth development as a key to creating quality in their teams. Barcelona , Ajax , Juventus , Man Utd, etc all realised some time ago that this was a vital source of development.

Our rich crop of players over the last 10 years have been key to some of our highs and great nights during that time. We have received vital income from their sales and its been great to see Fletcher , Miller, Brown and even O'Connor play at a high level.

Despite the fact we are at an incredible low ebb, we seem to have some strong talent coming through again. This could be as exciting for us as any signing in the future. Are we really saying lets not have any of that happening ? These guys have been at our club since they were 10 years old. It would take 8-10 years to rebuild the set up. It's not something we should reduce.

Also, the markets of Scandanavia etc are not immature markets. Clubs from all over the world scout the youth leagues in these places. Obi-Makel for example was picked up as a teenager.

The premise was about a change of direction. The plan proposed to me is a knee jerk, short term plan that would take our club backwards . We may get a year or twos progress but in the medium to longer term we would pay a huge price in a model that would not be sustainable.

St Johnstone's success in recent years has been a foundation of good British players. Jody Morris , Dave Mackay , Murray Davison, Stevie May etc. They have spent less and signed better. It hasn't been through disregarding youth development. same with Inverness etc

Our salary bill is double that of St Johnstone. Frankly, we can have our youth development, plus outpay for players . We have made some poor decisions for a number of years now. Matt Done, Kujabi, Kuqi, O'Brien Hurtado, Keenan etc etc. If there is such great technique out there why not focus wages that are used on these type of players in these markets. We need to do better than last time. We manage to sign De Graaf in Yogi's time who seemed to be the only Dutch player without a good first touch !

Our scouting system has been poor since John Park left. I hope we are investing n that right now.

For what it's worth, I think the posts on here about bringing a new level of professionalism around diet and technical development are much more important. Setting a new standard in line with the best there is in world sport would bring out more from our talent than we do today - Stephen Dobbie anyone ?? Maximising the contribution of our youth development and having a better hit rate on our signings is the best way forward. not throwing away our future by short term investments overseas.

Mikey
27-07-2013, 08:29 AM
Given that we're very unlikely to see a change at the very top I wonder if the DoF/First Team Coach set up would work for us?

Jimmy Nicol is in place already and could take on the coaching role and A N Other could provide the link between him and the board.

Captain Trips
27-07-2013, 08:34 AM
Given that we're very unlikely to see a change at the very top I wonder if the DoF/First team Coach set up would work for us?

Jimmy Nicol is in place already and could take on the coaching role and A N Other could provide the link between him and the board.

Your first part IMO is the direction we perhaps should be going in. All without Petrie involved though.

PeeJay
27-07-2013, 10:12 AM
I'd also ignore most of the Scottish market, and concentrate on the foreign market for the time being, until such times as they have learnt to trap a ball and pass and move.

Everything about them seems more professional, their players are bigger stronger and much more technically gifted than the Scottish counterpart.


It's certainly an interesting point you make, but I think that's actually the wrong way to go. Germany years ago had major problems and it did the very opposite of what you are suggesting. It invested in its youth setup: from the very bottom to the top. It realised it couldn't compete - in money terms - with the EPL, Italian, Spanish leagues to buy in the stars from abroad, so it decided to foster youth development. As we can all see, it is now paying off handsomely. This is the overall problem in the UK: clubs thinking they can just buy in success instead of developing it at home. This applies more to EPL than the SPL, I guess, but up in Scotland the league seems to me to primarily have been geared to servicing the wishes of the OF basically, to the detriment of everyone else in the Scottish game. At our club's level the problem certainly seems to lie with the guys at the head of the club who either have no interest in the club beyond ensuing it stays afloat or who - while also interested in financial security - have no footballing perspective, no vision, no clear idea of what Hibs as a club should represent and seek to achieve. The last manager/coach to impress me in terms of proper, professional attitude on and off the park, with a clear vison of where the club should be heading was Collins ... Investing in the youth players is however a long-term issue and it inolves investment of capital, knowledge, time and a wiilingness to see it through. We need a manager who undersands modern tactics, the Scottish game, is up-to-date with state-of-the-art training regimes and who is highly disciplined in terms of how his players act both on and off the field. Someone who expects and demands professionalism at all times from his staff and his players.

Expecting Rain
27-07-2013, 10:24 AM
East Mains is starting to pay dividends especially with the emergence of Harris, the other lads such as Handling, Caldwell and Forster ect... need the backing and encouragement of the entire Hibs support in their development but this has to be supplemented with a bit of cash especially in the key areas,centre half, centre midfield and striker, in the past we turned to Billy McNeil to oversee things he didn`t seem to be interested, now is the time for Alex McLeish to return, he knows the club from his previous stint and he is out of work, bring him back in some capacity at least.

blackpoolhibs
27-07-2013, 10:25 AM
It's certainly an interesting point you make, but I think that's actually the wrong way to go. Germany years ago had major problems and it did the very opposite of what you are suggesting. It invested in its youth setup: from the very bottom to the top. It realised it couldn't compete - in money terms - with the EPL, Italian, Spanish leagues to buy in the stars from abroad, so it decided to foster youth development. As we can all see, it is now paying off handsomely. This is the overall problem in the UK: clubs thinking they can just buy in success instead of developing it at home. This applies more to EPL than the SPL, I guess, but up in Scotland the league seems to me to primarily have been geared to servicing the wishes of the OF basically, to the detriment of everyone else in the Scottish game. At our club's level the problem certainly seems to lie with the guys at the head of the club who either have no interest in the club beyond ensuing it stays afloat or who - while also interested in financial security - have no footballing perspective, no vision, no clear idea of what Hibs as a club should represent and seek to achieve. The last manager/coach to impress me in terms of proper, professional attitude on and off the park, with a clear vison of where the club should be heading was Collins ... Investing in the youth players is however a long-term issue and it inolves investment of capital, knowledge, time and a wiilingness to see it through. We need a manager who undersands modern tactics, the Scottish game, is up-to-date with state-of-the-art training regimes and who is highly disciplined in terms of how his players act both on and off the field. Someone who expects and demands professionalism at all times from his staff and his players.


The reason i have said this, is i dont see the same type of professionalism in the Scottish youth. I dont see the same skill level, or fitness level or technical ability as the foreign players we have come up against in our last forays :faf: into Europe.

Something happens to the average Scot when he reaches the age to legally enter pubs and women, its in our blood to drink and go wild.

Someone said that the market i'd like to go for is already tapped, really? I'd hazard a guess they have not covered all of it?

We can go down the same route we have been doing, but as PTS said further up, its clearly not working and when you add up what it's costing and what we are producing i find it laughable.

How many more years does anyone think it will be under the current system, before we could be in a position to qualify for the group stages of the Europa cup?

My guess is i will be dead before this happens if ever?

bigwheel
27-07-2013, 10:45 AM
The reason i have said this, is i dont see the same type of professionalism in the Scottish youth. I dont see the same skill level, or fitness level or technical ability as the foreign players we have come up against in our last forays :faf: into Europe.

Something happens to the average Scot when he reaches the age to legally enter pubs and women, its in our blood to drink and go wild.

Someone said that the market i'd like to go for is already tapped, really? I'd hazard a guess they have not covered all of it?

We can go down the same route we have been doing, but as PTS said further up, its clearly not working and when you add up what it's costing and what we are producing i find it laughable.

How many more years does anyone think it will be under the current system, before we could be in a position to qualify for the group stages of the Europa cup?

My guess is i will be dead before this happens if ever?

I think you are hitting the root of the problem, but your solution is flawed. If we aren't driving professionalism into our young players, then that's the issue that needs to be addressed. Other sports have sorted that. I know young athletes who never drink alcohol, eat pizza, have desserts etc during the season. Or if they did it would be one day a week in moderation. To simply walk away from our core source of talent and look abroad is not a sustainable solution. Good professionals cost money (at any age) and these markets are already well tapped into. I'm sure we can look deeper, and get some good players and role models to balance the team - and that's a good idea! but the change of focus you suggest would be far more expensive than getting it right ourselves.

Brown, Thomson, Fletcher are all examples of young Scottish players technically good enough to compete with those that you admire. As will Harris as he matures. There are many more at other clubs. It's more of those we need, setting higher more consistent standards of all their lifestyle. We should not ignore Scottish young players and turn dominantly to foreign players. Actually the academies (in schools and clubs) in Scotland are starting to produce good technique in our talent. We are starting to see it at our club and others....it will take 5-10 years before we see it more obviously.

On diet - When Mowbray and Collins were at ER, you would not have seen the youth players walking about the West stand with chips and pizzas etc. Mowbray explicitly banned it. Those disciplines have gone and it suggest a real lack of education and the right behaviour being driven into our kids.

I do agree of the need for new professionalism and a real change of direction on these elements, just not your solution.

blackpoolhibs
27-07-2013, 10:56 AM
I think you are hitting the root of the problem, but your solution is flawed. If we aren't driving professionalism into our young players, then that's the issue that needs to be addressed. Other sports have sorted that. I know young athletes who never drink alcohol, eat pizza, have desserts etc during the season. Or if they did it would be one day a week in moderation. To simply walk away from our core source of talent and look abroad is not a sustainable solution. Good professionals cost money (at any age) and these markets are already well tapped into. I'm sure we can look deeper, and get some good players and role models to balance the team - and that's a good idea! but the change of focus you suggest would be far more expensive than getting it right ourselves.

Brown, Thomson, Fletcher are all examples of young Scottish players technically good enough to compete with those that you admire. As will Harris as he matures. There are many more at other clubs. It's more of those we need, setting higher more consistent standards of all their lifestyle. We should not ignore Scottish young players and turn dominantly to foreign players. Actually the academies (in schools and clubs) in Scotland are starting to produce good technique in our talent. We are starting to see it at our club and others....it will take 5-10 years before we see it more obviously.

On diet - When Mowbray and Collins were at ER, you would not have seen the youth players walking about the West stand with chips and pizzas etc. Mowbray explicitly banned it. Those disciplines have gone and it suggest a real lack of education and the right behaviour being driven into our kids.

I do agree of the need for new professionalism and a real change of direction on these elements, just not your solution.

Thats fair enough, and obviously i'd be daft if i said, right all the Scottish players are to be released at the end of your contracts and will be replaced with a foreigner. The way i'd do it is starting today i'd punt Fenlon and look at bringing in a foreign coach, the best one we could afford.

I'd say to him his job was to get everything on the pitch right using his contacts abroad. If that meant bringing kids in who were better than our kids, then thats fine. But any signings he made would be foreign, we need technical ability strength and professionalism at our club, i don't see any of that here.

We always bring in a few players each window, they should not be british. We have tried this and its not worked, lets try the continental way for a change. Lets see if bringing in some proper professionals supplemented by what we bring through works, what we are doing now doesn't.

PeeJay
27-07-2013, 11:17 AM
The reason i have said this, is i dont see the same type of professionalism in the Scottish youth. I dont see the same skill level, or fitness level or technical ability as the foreign players we have come up against in our last forays :faf: into Europe.

Something happens to the average Scot when he reaches the age to legally enter pubs and women, its in our blood to drink and go wild.

Someone said that the market i'd like to go for is already tapped, really? I'd hazard a guess they have not covered all of it?

We can go down the same route we have been doing, but as PTS said further up, its clearly not working and when you add up what it's costing and what we are producing i find it laughable.

How many more years does anyone think it will be under the current system, before we could be in a position to qualify for the group stages of the Europa cup?

My guess is i will be dead before this happens if ever?

I understand your reasoning and agree with you in many ways, indeed formerly I might have pushed this simply on to a "societal" problem in the UK in general, (binge drinking etc.) and Scotland in particular. However, the recent successes in the athletics, cycling fields etc. and the genuine PROGRESS that Andy Murray has made shows me that the fitness and skills you currently attribute rightly to the "Europeans" is also something we could have back home, if only people were in charge and overseeing it all who have looked at the setups of the various leagues around Europe, understood the lesssons and were capable of implementing them (if only!). The situations with Rangers and Hearts however, are indescribably embarrassing with regard to the SPL authorities, SPL club chairmen, and the media in Scotland, so I have no real high hopes there TBH. There's no way around it though it takes investment, as I said, in terms of money, knowledge and the conviction to push change through. I'd rather any money was invested in ensuring guys like Wotherspoon, Harris et all develop further, rather than bringing in foreign mercenaries. If all the money goes to bringing them in, the youth game in Scotland will die, surely? Has he resigned yet?

blackpoolhibs
27-07-2013, 11:31 AM
I understand your reasoning and agree with you in many ways, indeed formerly I might have pushed this simply on to a "societal" problem in the UK in general, (binge drinking etc.) and Scotland in particular. However, the recent successes in the athletics, cycling fields etc. and the genuine PROGRESS that Andy Murray has made shows me that the fitness and skills you currently attribute rightly to the "Europeans" is also something we could have back home, if only people were in charge and overseeing it all who have looked at the setups of the various leagues around Europe, understood the lesssons and were capable of implementing them (if only!). The situations with Rangers and Hearts however, are indescribably embarrassing with regard to the SPL authorities, SPL club chairmen, and the media in Scotland, so I have no real high hopes there TBH. There's no way around it though it takes investment, as I said, in terms of money, knowledge and the conviction to push change through. I'd rather any money was invested in ensuring guys like Wotherspoon, Harris et all develop further, rather than bringing in foreign mercenaries. If all the money goes to bringing them in, the youth game in Scotland will die, surely? Has he resigned yet?

Yes Andy Murray has made a fantastic change in his life, and those changes resulted in him starting to win majors. Where i feel this point falls down is i believe he had to move abroad for these things to happen. He had to get away from Scotland to reach his goals.

I dont believe at this minute in time our culture breeds winners, there will always be the exception but i'm worried at just how far we are falling behind even the smallest nations in terms of learning the basics.

PeeJay
27-07-2013, 11:35 AM
Yes Andy Murray has made a fantastic change in his life, and those changes resulted in him starting to win majors. Where i feel this point falls down is i believe he had to move abroad for these things to happen. He had to get away from Scotland to reach his goals.

I dont believe at this minute in time our culture breeds winners, there will always be the exception but i'm worried at just how far we are falling behind even the smallest nations in terms of learning the basics.Now that's a good idea. Bring the club to Germany (don't forget the half-time pies) ... :greengrin

blackpoolhibs
27-07-2013, 11:39 AM
Now that's a good idea. Bring the club to Germany (don't forget the half-time pies) ... :greengrin


Now an even better idea would be to take all our dross to Germany, and replace them with the german dross. Our standard just got better. :greengrin

Ozyhibby
27-07-2013, 11:39 AM
I personally think the solution is a complete overhaul of our coaching structure. As far as I know we have no specialist fitness coach at the club. Why not? As far as I know we have no specialist nutritionist at the club. Why not?
We can't compete on wages with the top clubs so we should make sure we get the very best out of the players we can afford.
Take Danny Handling. The boy has ability, anyone who has seem him play for the u20's raves about him. Have you ever seen a youngster come through any of the top leagues in Europe that are as slight as him? With a proper fitness coach at the club, individual training programmes can be developed for each player to allow them to improve. Blaming the Scottish psyche is nonsense. Everyone of those young players wants to improve, wants to play at the top level and has no problem putting in the work. Thats how they got as far as they did. There needs to be a system in place that allows them to do it.
Say Danny Handling reads this and thinks to himself ' that ozyhibby is certainly a wise chap, I think I do need to build myself up a bit'. Where does he start. Does he just start hanging back after training and start lifting weights? No. He needs a proper programme designed especially for him and the type of fitness he needs.
The same goes for nutrition. We have to have a proper programme in place where the players are taught not just what they need to eat but also how to prepare it themselves when they are not at the club. And proper testing needs to be done to make sure they are not cheating.
We can't afford the best players on the game but we should leave no stone unturned to get the very best out of the players we do bring in.
All this costs money but I think spending a £100k pa on a top fitness coach would bring more value to the club than the money spent on Kuqi last year.
Same goes for a nutritionist.
The guy who runs the British cycling team at the Olympics had it spot on when he said that the philosophy of the coaches was to take every advantage they could get, from diet, training techniques, equipment etc because they could not just go out and get better cyclists. They were stuck with the Brits. We should do the same.
An added benefit would be that we would not have 6 players out for the first two games of the season with muscle injuries.