Royal and Ancient Fudleys

[Phil D. Rolls]

Not a golfer myself, but it seems a damn fine game to play. Am I being too PC if I suggest that the game is run by old men who are scared of anyone who isn't like them?

It will come down to the sponsors, because the defence for Muirfield and its ongoing policy of bigotry, seems straight out of Monty Python.

Is there any justification for not allowing lady members?

[greenlex]

Not a golfer myself, but it seems a damn fine game to play. Am I being too PC if I suggest that the game is run by old men who are scared of anyone who isn't like them?

It will come down to the sponsors, because the defence for Muirfield and its ongoing policy of bigotry, seems straight out of Monty Python.

Is there any justification for not allowing lady members?
Aye. They are women. Its an all male club. If women want an exclusively all female club start their own and then they can stop man entering. The R&A promote the game for both men and women. Muirfield has as a course held numerous amateur womens competitions. They are just not allowed to be in the clubhouse or indeed members. I see nowt wrong with that. If it were the other way around or indeed they did start an all female club Id equally be fine with that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Aye. They are women. Its an all male club. If women want an exclusively all female club start their own and then they can stop man entering. The R&A promote the game for both men and women. Muirfield has as a course held numerous amateur womens competitions. They are just not allowed to be in the clubhouse or indeed members. I see nowt wrong with that. If it were the other way around or indeed they did start an all female club Id equally be fine with that.

What about an all white club, would that be different?

[greenlex]

What about an all white club, would that be different?
No different to an all black one I suppose. I am sure they exist in the entertainment world without any hoo ha. Its up to them I would suggest. If they didnt want me around I wouldnt be at all fazed. I would take the hint and not try and go.

[Phil D. Rolls]

No different to an all black one I suppose. I am sure they exist in the entertainment world without any hoo ha. Its up to them I would suggest. If they didnt want me around I wouldnt be at all fazed. I would take the hint and not try and go.

Fair enough. As I say, I think the sponsors will have something to say before its held at Troon.

[greenlex]

Fair enough. As I say, I think the sponsors will have something to say before its held at Troon.
Im sure cash will drive any decisions. They normally do. I remember The Masters at Augusta not that long ago saying they would never sell out to the corporate World. The quote I rememeber if not word for word was they would never be called "The Pizza Hut Masters". They were right but TV coverage is brought to by......................Whoever pays the most.
Just to reiterate the R&A do a good job promoting golf to all. They might be the ones that drive the change at the likes of Muirfield but it might take a bit of time. The last time they made noises about taking them off The Open rota Muirfields response was OK fine we will manage as a club how we are.

[lord bunberry]

Fair enough. As I say, I think the sponsors will have something to say before its held at Troon.

I'm not sure about troon but I'm pretty sure that muirfield would rather not host the open than be forced to allow female members

[Pretty Boy]

Murifield should be made to allow female members as soon as Lundin Ladies GC is forced to admit males.

[Jack]

Murifield should be made to allow female members as soon as Lundin Ladies GC is forced to admit males.

Thats just it. Theres plenty ladies only stuff - virtually every gym I know of has women only classes and there's a lot more besides.

Sometimes these things are right.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thats just it. Theres plenty ladies only stuff - virtually every gym I know of has women only classes and there's a lot more besides.

Sometimes these things are right.

I think part of the resistance to the likes of Muirfield is the perception that, because it's golf, it must be rooted in the old order... where women knew their place etc etc. Therefore, it must be destroyed.

That is a big barrier to a sensible, rational, discussion on the issues.

[Hibbyradge]

I think single sex golf clubs are ludicrous.

What difference would it make to Muirfield GC if there were women members?

If men are so intimidated by members of the opposite sex, they should join the Masons.

Ah...

[Hibbyradge]

Thats just it. Theres plenty ladies only stuff - virtually every gym I know of has women only classes and there's a lot more besides.

Sometimes these things are right.

Gyms are different entirely to golf clubs.

Women may feel intimidated if they're exercising in gym clothes in front of men, so women only classes makes sense.

They're not denying men exercise, merely structuring it to suit everyone.

Which is what most golf clubs do.

[greenlex]

I think single sex golf clubs are ludicrous.

What difference would it make to Muirfield GC if there were women members?

If men are so intimidated by members of the opposite sex, they should join the Masons.

Ah...

It means there would be women about the clubhouse. If you think its ludicrous then can I suggest you dont join? :wink:
Perhaps its now about not listening to there whining at the club as well as the house.
ps Mon the Masons. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

It means there would be women about the clubhouse. If you think its ludicrous then can I suggest you dont join? :wink:
Perhaps its now about not listening to there whining at the club as well as the house.
ps Mon the Masons. :greengrin

I've been a member of golf clubs for many years. Same as you.

I play golf, drink and socialise with men. I have never spent any time in the company of the women members.

If men have whining wives, they should grow a set and sort it out at home instead of running off to Muirfield and the likes to hide.

Weak fannies. (The men, that is!)

[Sir David Gray]

Murifield should be made to allow female members as soon as Lundin Ladies GC is forced to admit males.

Apparently that's alright though because that's "positive discrimination" and the law allows for this.

That was honestly the view put forward by a woman who was interviewed on Sky Sports News yesterday.

There's literally hundreds of examples within sport and recreation in this country where men are not allowed to attend certain classes or certain venues at a particular time of the day. Most of these places are public sports centres as well.

I'm sure I'm right in saying that women are not banned from playing on the golf course at Muirfield, they can attend as a guest or as a visitor. That, for me, ends any comparison that some people are trying to make with a "no blacks allowed" policy. For me, that is just nonsense.

I see nothing wrong with a private club restricting its membership to men and for people like Harriet Harman to start quoting the Equalities Act nonsense and saying that we need to get into the 21st century is just tiresome.

This kind of stuff is just going too far and I hope there is a tipping point very soon and we can get rid of all this garbage and get back to some normality.

[Hibbyradge]

Apparently that's alright though because that's "positive discrimination" and the law allows for this.

That was honestly the view put forward by a woman who was interviewed on Sky Sports News yesterday.

There's literally hundreds of examples within sport and recreation in this country where men are not allowed to attend certain classes or certain venues at a particular time of the day. Most of these places are public sports centres as well.

I'm sure I'm right in saying that women are not banned from playing on the golf course at Muirfield, they can attend as a guest or as a visitor. That, for me, ends any comparison that some people are trying to make with a "no blacks allowed" policy. For me, that is just nonsense.

I see nothing wrong with a private club restricting its membership to men and for people like Harriet Harman to start quoting the Equalities Act nonsense and saying that we need to get into the 21st century is just tiresome.

This kind of stuff is just going too far and I hope there is a tipping point very soon and we can get rid of all this garbage and get back to some normality.

Women are allowed every Tuesday and Thursday.

Blacks and browns and yellows are more than welcome as guests of white men with wads of cash at the same time on Tuesdays and Thursdays .

People with disabilities are allowed on Tuesdays and Thursdays too, but we're not putting ramps in to the clubhouse or providing buggies.

White men with wads of cash can play anytime as guests of other white men with wads of cash who the committee have deemed to be desirable and have had expensive membership bestowed upon them.

Seems fair.

No it doesn't. It's a nonsense. Weak men making rules for weak men.

[HibeeB]

What about an all white club, would that be different?

FFS no! Got to keep the Poles out.

[Jack]

What about an all white club, would that be different?

What about the Unions and staff associations then?

They have black sections (now known as something more PC), women sections since I can remember and now there are gay and LGBT sections. Some employers are the same.

As a young. white, wimin chasing male I used to feel neglected as everyone seems to be preoccupied in their minority world. Indeed only a couple of years ago a gay coloured woman from the States had a right go at me personally from the stage for being a bit of a tall. blonde, white male who probably preferred the company of females and got a ripple of applause. I got a few laughs when I said given a choice I'd rather not be in her company.

[marinello59]

What about the Unions and staff associations then?

They have black sections (now known as something more PC), women sections since I can remember and now there are gay and LGBT sections. Some employers are the same.

As a young. white, wimin chasing male I used to feel neglected as everyone seems to be preoccupied in their minority world. Indeed only a couple of years ago a gay coloured woman from the States had a right go at me personally from the stage for being a bit of a tall. blonde, white male who probably preferred the company of females and got a ripple of applause. I got a few laughs when I said given a choice I'd rather not be in her company.

It's an absolute scandal how many barriers are placed in the way of white male golfers. When we start to see them occupy the upper echelons in business and politics then we can relax but until then the fight goes on.

[Hibbyradge]

What about the Unions and staff associations then?

They have black sections (now known as something more PC), women sections since I can remember and now there are gay and LGBT sections. Some employers are the same.

As a young. white, wimin chasing male I used to feel neglected as everyone seems to be preoccupied in their minority world. Indeed only a couple of years ago a gay coloured woman from the States had a right go at me personally from the stage for being a bit of a tall. blonde, white male who probably preferred the company of females and got a ripple of applause. I got a few laughs when I said given a choice I'd rather not be in her company.

White men as a group are not disadvantaged by society or employers, deliberately or not.

They are not subject to racism, homophobia or sexism.

They are not paid less than women for the same work.

There are still only 3 female CEOs in the FTSE 100 despite there being more women in employment than men.

White men are in control, Jack, so there's no need for us to feel neglected or left out.

We don't need separate sections in Trades Unions to look after our interests. They do that as a matter of course.

[RyeSloan]

Interesting to note that roughly 50% of single sex golf clubs are actually women only clubs.

Personally I find it all a bit strange but each to their own and if its within the law don't see much of a problem with it.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's an absolute scandal how many barriers are placed in the way of white male golfers. When we start to see them occupy the upper echelons in business and politics then we can relax but until then the fight goes on.

Tell it like it is, brother. :agree:

[Gatecrasher]

If theres womans only clubs and mens only clubs I dont see a problem with it. But if it was mens only and thats it then it's a bit different. TBH I just think Salmond and Cameron are just after some petty points scoring.

[DaveF]

I used to play golf a lot but have drifted away from it in recent years, mainly due to time and other things in life.

I don't have a problem with Muirfield's policy and if it suits them then it's fine with me. In fact, I went along to a lunch at a very posh Edinburgh golf club recently and there quite a few pushy, rude elderly ladies who took apparent delight in looking down on me as a guest while barging their way to the front of the buffet.

Maybe Muirfield have it right :greengrin

[Beefster]

The standard response of a lot of folk whenever discrimination is discussed is "what about black/women/Asian/gay only etc etc". It's like context and history never existed.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If women are that desperate to get into a men only club they could get a job behind the bar.

[--------]

Gyms are different entirely to golf clubs.

Women may feel intimidated if they're exercising in gym clothes in front of men, so women only classes makes sense.

They're not denying men exercise, merely structuring it to suit everyone.

Which is what most golf clubs do.


What's "Muirfield Golf Club"? No such thing exists.

They're The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, I think the oldest established golf club in the world, and they happen to play at Muirfield. And there was a period when they did more or less tell the R&A to take a hike with their poxy competitions. The competitions were getting in the members' way.

In comparison, the R&A are a bunch of common-bred johnny-come-latelies - no breeding, no polish, and no style. The Hon Com are the REAL deal, no argument.

Joining The Honourable Company isn't a matter of who you know, it's a matter of who knows you, or rather, who's prepared to admit to knowing you. They are seriously exclusive - I believe that on one occasion they turned Jack Nicklaus and Seve Ballesteros away because they hadn't booked a time on tee ahead of their arrival.

Ordinarily I'd be all in favour of bringing such a club down, but I can't see how you do it without making it entirely illegal for any group of men to form any club for even legal purposes without their being forced to admit as a member any woman who happens to come along and decides to push her way in.

I like most women, but there are some I would not wish to have within a long country mile of myself.

"It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop than in a wide house with a brawling woman ..." :devil:

[lord bunberry]

I may be wrong on this but is the r&a not a men only club

[500miles]

I don't see and issue with having men's clubs and women's clubs - some men often wish to spend time away from women, just as some women like a place to go away from men. The problem is, because of the elitist reputation of Muirfield, the exclusion will be seen as a sexual apartheid. This may or may not be the case, and the ongoing membership restrictions may be well be founded in sexism. However, a ban on men's clubs WILL eventually lead to a ban on women's clubs which means no one gets what they want.

Men and women are different, and social division (the way we communicate, socialise, bond and find humour) between the two groups is very natural. Black and white people are only superficially different, and there is no reason why there should be any need for segregation. This is why a single sex club is OK, and why a "white only" club is not. To suggest otherwise is nothing more than wilful ignorance.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't see and issue with having men's clubs and women's clubs - some men often wish to spend time away from women, just as some women like a place to go away from men. The problem is, because of the elitist reputation of Muirfield, the exclusion will be seen as a sexual apartheid. This may or may not be the case, and the ongoing membership restrictions may be well be founded in sexism. However, a ban on men's clubs WILL eventually lead to a ban on women's clubs which means no one gets what they want.

Men and women are different, and social division (the way we communicate, socialise, bond and find humour) between the two groups is very natural. Black and white people are only superficially different, and there is no reason why there should be any need for segregation. This is why a single sex club is OK, and why a "white only" club is not. To suggest otherwise is nothing more than wilful ignorance.

Think I possibly communicate socialise bond and find humour in different ways to Jewish people, so your argument here opens up a whole kettle of worms.

[500miles]

Think I possibly communicate socialise bond and find humour in different ways to Jewish people, so your argument here opens up a whole kettle of worms.

I am oversimplifying, but that's cultural diffence. Racial difference is separate. There is an element of cultural exclusion in golf as a whole - or rather, class division.

[Scouse Hibee]

Back in my early days of bowling (crown green) we would occasionally come up against a team that had a woman player, the sheer indignation of some of our team's older members was pathetic. Their main worry although they wouldn't admit it was that they would be drawn to play the woman and lose.

[Hibby D]

Women are allowed every Tuesday and Thursday.

Blacks and browns and yellows are more than welcome as guests of white men with wads of cash at the same time on Tuesdays and Thursdays .

People with disabilities are allowed on Tuesdays and Thursdays too, but we're not putting ramps in to the clubhouse or providing buggies.

White men with wads of cash can play anytime as guests of other white men with wads of cash who the committee have deemed to be desirable and have had expensive membership bestowed upon them.

Seems fair.

No it doesn't. It's a nonsense. Weak men making rules for weak men.

I wholly support your view. It's a lot of nonsense.

I remember going to the Masonic lodge at shrubhill for some do or other years ago. Women, although welcome, weren't allowed at the bar. I found that as ludicrous a rule as the mason's were a club, group, sect, whatever nonsense they are, and when no-one in our company could explain why, I left shortly after arriving.

I hate elitism as much as I hate most other isms.

I like golf though :greengrin

[MSK]

I wholly support your view. It's a lot of nonsense.

I remember going to the Masonic lodge at shrubhill for some do or other years ago. Women, although welcome, weren't allowed at the bar. I found that as ludicrous a rule as the mason's were a club, group, sect, whatever nonsense they are, and when no-one in our company could explain why, I left shortly after arriving.

I hate elitism as much as I hate most other isms.

I like golf though :greengrinAlthough the crazy thing is ..they are allowed to work behind the bar ..:crazy:

[RyeSloan]

I am oversimplifying, but that's cultural diffence. Racial difference is separate. There is an element of cultural exclusion in golf as a whole - or rather, class division.

Really? Golf has its upper echelons for sure but as a game is extremely accessible, esp in Scotland.

I've played golf all my life all across the world with plenty of people from all classes no bother at all.

[Golden Bear]

Interesting to note that roughly 50% of single sex golf clubs are actually women only clubs.

Personally I find it all a bit strange but each to their own and if its within the law don't see much of a problem with it.

:agree:

Exactly. It's much to do about nothing unless you want to sell newpapers or seek political capital.

And oh bye the way, here's an interesting wee article:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/10190553/Salmond-accused-of-hypocrisy-in-Open-row.html

[Phil D. Rolls]

Interesting discussion. To me it isn't for other people to tell men (or women, or transgendered) whether or not they should have exclusive clubs. A club, after all, is a group if like minded people with a shared interest.

I think what does have to be asked is "why do people whose interest is sport, feel the need to exclude people from the social side of the game, based on gender or race?"

My original post was raised because I saw some old Bufton Tufton on the telly, and his defence if their position was - "we are right, and anybody who says we aren't isn't one of us anyway".

It's clear Muirfield don't give a monkeys, but the R&A are promoting the game worldwide to everyone. They have to think about how the sport is perceived real world.

At a time when golf courses are closing, they maybe need to think about where new customers can be found. As someone who was thinking about taking the game up, it's off putting to see the R&A matching the stereotypical model of golfers.

I wouldn't expect golf clubs to hotbeds of radicalism, but at the same time I wouldn't want to be in a place that supports institutionalised sexism and racism.

So whilst I respect the wishes of others, it's not my kind of place. I don't think I'm that different from lots of middle aged men that fancy the sport, but aren't too keen on the company we'd keep.

As someone else said, "if you don't like it don't join". But lots of clubs are having to face the reality of the 21st century, and commercially this could be a setback.

[Twa Cairpets]

A club should be allowed to have whoever they want in it, as long as it doesn't break any laws.

Where the R+A are missing totally the point is in their at least tacit endorsement of a club who are, demonstrably, exclusive in their membership when the sport is an open participation actiivty. Watching the R+A heid-bummers interview with Hazel Irvine this morning I suspect they realise this.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A club should be allowed to have whoever they want in it, as long as it doesn't break any laws.

Where the R+A are missing totally the point is in their at least tacit endorsement of a club who are, demonstrably, exclusive in their membership when the sport is an open participation actiivty. Watching the R+A heid-bummers interview with Hazel Irvine this morning I suspect they realise this.

Horse, stable door.

[silverhibee]

I wholly support your view. It's a lot of nonsense.

I remember going to the Masonic lodge at shrubhill for some do or other years ago. Women, although welcome, weren't allowed at the bar. I found that as ludicrous a rule as the mason's were a club, group, sect, whatever nonsense they are, and when no-one in our company could explain why, I left shortly after arriving.

I hate elitism as much as I hate most other isms.

I like golf though :greengrin

Pretty sure the Doo'cot pub on Ferry Road had a policy of no woman in the bar but were allowed in the lounge many years ago, now it is just a pish pub. :greengrin