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green glory
25-06-2013, 08:30 AM
Are they still training at Riccarton?

The council might do them a deal to use Starbank Park.

hibs4thecup1988
25-06-2013, 08:46 AM
Are they still training at Riccarton?

The council might do them a deal to use Starbank Park.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I believe that their contract will run out June 29th. Scottish Rugby Union are to move in their for 6 months due to the training pitches at Murrayfield undergoing repair. This is from a family member who does work with the SRU.

poolman
25-06-2013, 09:49 AM
Are they still training at Riccarton?

The council might do them a deal to use Starbank Park.



Mair money they're due :greengrin



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-crisis-heriot-watt-uni-praised-1990566

GloryGlory
25-06-2013, 09:53 AM
Mair money they're due :greengrin



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-crisis-heriot-watt-uni-praised-1990566

Hmmmm - HWU are a body that relies on public funding for a significant amount of its income. I hope us poor taxpayers aren't going to be subsidising their inevitable write-off of Yam debt.

Treadstone
25-06-2013, 10:06 AM
Hmmmm - HWU are a body that relies on public funding for a significant amount of its income. I hope us poor taxpayers aren't going to be subsidising their inevitable write-off of Yam debt.

And accruing more. :cb

brog
25-06-2013, 12:44 PM
Mair money they're due :greengrin



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-crisis-heriot-watt-uni-praised-1990566

That's a huge chunk of Wonga for HW to give up. Makes you suspect they've cut some kind of a deal with Yams but why anyone would trust anything from PBS is beyond me, maybe they had a reference from Danny Wilson!!

Ozyhibby
25-06-2013, 01:01 PM
That's a huge chunk of Wonga for HW to give up. Makes you suspect they've cut some kind of a deal with Yams but why anyone would trust anything from PBS is beyond me, maybe they had a reference from Danny Wilson!!

It's public money they are throwing at a private business to the detriment of their competitors.
Clearly a case of the SNP playing fast and loose with the education budget.

green glory
25-06-2013, 01:13 PM
It's public money they are throwing at a private business to the detriment of their competitors.
Clearly a case of the SNP playing fast and loose with the education budget.

Was the deal to hold the land not made before the when it was still a Lib/Lab council?

Liberal Hibby
25-06-2013, 01:22 PM
Was the deal to hold the land not made before the when it was still a Lib/Lab council?

Don't think there's every been a Lib/Lab council. Last council was Lib/SNP - Cardownie hasn't been out of power for ages (if ever - he was Labour when they ran the show).

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 01:44 PM
It's public money they are throwing at a private business to the detriment of their competitors.
Clearly a case of the SNP playing fast and loose with the education budget.

What an astonishing comment that is? Have you any proof at all that the SNP would have had any input to this decision. It would be up to Heriot Watt to run their own budget and make their own decisions regarding Hearts. It would make no PR sense at all for them to have refused them entry all you would have got was a group of slack jawed yokels trying to attack a couple of lecturers going to class. :greengrin

£150k is a lot of money for a University to be losing that is for sure. It would be interesting to know the terms of this debt and for how long they have not been paying it.

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 01:55 PM
That's a huge chunk of Wonga for HW to give up. Makes you suspect they've cut some kind of a deal with Yams but why anyone would trust anything from PBS is beyond me, maybe they had a reference from Danny Wilson!!

Not sure about that sounds like it would be more hassle to let them use than ban them. No doubt just another name to add to the list of creditors.

Ozyhibby
25-06-2013, 01:58 PM
What an astonishing comment that is? Have you any proof at all that the SNP would have had any input to this decision. It would be up to Heriot Watt to run their own budget and make their own decisions regarding Hearts. It would make no PR sense at all for them to have refused them entry all you would have got was a group of slack jawed yokels trying to attack a couple of lecturers going to class. :greengrin

£150k is a lot of money for a University to be losing that is for sure. It would be interesting to know the terms of this debt and for how long they have not been paying it.

SNP have been in power for 6 years now. They set the higher education budget and carry ultimate responsibility for how public money is spent. If Heriot watt are willing to write off £150k to a private business while still allowing them to run up further debts the perhaps the SNP need to decide if Heriot Watt is perhaps a little over funded.
Either way, the SNP are in power and are ultimately responsible.

Geo_1875
25-06-2013, 02:03 PM
That's a huge chunk of Wonga for HW to give up. Makes you suspect they've cut some kind of a deal with Yams but why anyone would trust anything from PBS is beyond me, maybe they had a reference from Danny Wilson!!

I doubt there's any deal in place yet. Don't be surprised if Hertz are turned away on Thursday when they turn up for training. As far as I'm aware they are not, as the story claims, "Happy to co-operate."

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 02:03 PM
SNP have been in power for 6 years now. They set the higher education budget and carry ultimate responsibility for how public money is spent. If Heriot watt are willing to write off £150k to a private business while still allowing them to run up further debts the perhaps the SNP need to decide if Heriot Watt is perhaps a little over funded.
Either way, the SNP are in power and are ultimately responsible.

Who says they are willing to write off anything. I am sure they probably tried to keep Hearts to their payment schedule. Your attempt to tie it to any Government policy is IMO a lame one as no doubt Universities have a fair degree of autonomy in how they use whatever funds they get.

cabbageandribs1875
25-06-2013, 02:11 PM
It's public money they are throwing at a private business to the detriment of their competitors.
Clearly a case of the SNP playing fast and loose with the education budget.


SNP have been in power for 6 years now. They set the higher education budget and carry ultimate responsibility for how public money is spent. If Heriot watt are willing to write off £150k to a private business while still allowing them to run up further debts the perhaps the SNP need to decide if Heriot Watt is perhaps a little over funded.
Either way, the SNP are in power and are ultimately responsible.



lmfao :faf::faf: not even worth an answer/debate

Jack
25-06-2013, 02:12 PM
It's public money they are throwing at a private business to the detriment of their competitors.
Clearly a case of the SNP playing fast and loose with the education budget.


SNP have been in power for 6 years now. They set the higher education budget and carry ultimate responsibility for how public money is spent. If Heriot watt are willing to write off £150k to a private business while still allowing them to run up further debts the perhaps the SNP need to decide if Heriot Watt is perhaps a little over funded.
Either way, the SNP are in power and are ultimately responsible.

With all due respect you obviously have no idea how higher education is run or funded in Scotland.

clerriehibs
25-06-2013, 02:13 PM
Let's not lose focus here; it's the gimps at fault.

The tynecastle gimps.

The gorgie gimps.

The lying gimps.

The cheating gimps.

The thieving gimps.

The inbred gimps.

The in-admin gimps.

The bloodied turd gimps.

The dirty gimps.

The gimps. I hope those gimpy bar stewards die.

The gimps.

hibs4thecup1988
25-06-2013, 02:37 PM
Let's not lose focus here; it's the gimps at fault.

The tynecastle gimps.

The gorgie gimps.

The lying gimps.

The cheating gimps.

The thieving gimps.

The inbred gimps.

The in-admin gimps.

The bloodied turd gimps.

The dirty gimps.

The gimps. I hope those gimpy bar stewards die.

The gimps.

So...who is really at fault then? Don't sit on the fence now :faf:

sidneyhibbie
25-06-2013, 02:40 PM
What an astonishing comment that is? Have you any proof at all that the SNP would have had any input to this decision. It would be up to Heriot Watt to run their own budget and make their own decisions regarding Hearts. It would make no PR sense at all for them to have refused them entry all you would have got was a group of slack jawed yokels trying to attack a couple of lecturers going to class. :greengrin

£150k is a lot of money for a University to be losing that is for sure. It would be interesting to know the terms of this debt and for how long they have not been paying it.

They are supposed to be paying them 10k per month so are 15 months behind and counting.

Kato
25-06-2013, 02:41 PM
Let's not lose focus here; it's the gimps at fault.

The tynecastle gimps.

The gorgie gimps.

The lying gimps.

The cheating gimps.

The thieving gimps.

The inbred gimps.

The in-admin gimps.

The bloodied turd gimps.

The dirty gimps.

The gimps. I hope those gimpy bar stewards die.

The gimps.

In depth, well researched and factual. For all you Lazy Journos looking in this is how it is done.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 02:44 PM
They are supposed to be paying them 10k per month so are 15 months behind and counting.

I have to say that I am less than impressed with HWU if that is the case. In fact, they were my alma mater.... I'm appalled.

What organisation lets its debtors away with 15 months interest-free credit? If that were the commercial world, HWU would have been in serious trouble a long time ago.

blindsummit
25-06-2013, 02:45 PM
I'm quite frankly disgusted if it's true that Heriot Watt are willing to let Hearts still use their facilites despite being over 150K in arrears to them already, and there be little or no prospect of future payment. What are they, a publicly funded university, or a charity! So, why should anyone else paying to use their facilites continue to do so? They should just copy Hearts and stop paying now.

In fact why should any other football club bother to pay anyone for anything anymore? Just overspend like crazy and then thumb your nose at your creditors! "Awww we're a puir wee fitba club, geeza break, we're special"

No wonder society is going down the tubes. No responsibility, no consequences, no rules that can't be bent or broken if you know the right people.

Pedantic_Hibee
25-06-2013, 02:47 PM
I believe Hearts have a "special relationship" with HWU......

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 02:53 PM
They are supposed to be paying them 10k per month so are 15 months behind and counting.

Wow didnt realise that. That is a shocker to be honest and HWU have a lot to answer for letting them off when also seeing them sign new players in front of their face. They should have threatened them with losing access to the facilities and then punted them if no payment. To allow non-payment to continue for a year and 3 months is appalling governance IMO.

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 02:54 PM
I have to say that I am less than impressed with HWU if that is the case. In fact, they were my alma mater.... I'm appalled.

What organisation lets its debtors away with 15 months interest-free credit? If that were the commercial world, HWU would have been in serious trouble a long time ago.

Completely agree that is a joke.

21.05.2016
25-06-2013, 02:57 PM
Why do hearts fans think they have a "special relationship" with everything :faf:


NOBODY like yous ya cheating, horrible, bigotted, arrogant, class less, grotty, scabby wee club! :fenlon:brokenyam:

Scott Allan Key
25-06-2013, 02:58 PM
I have to say that I am less than impressed with HWU if that is the case. In fact, they were my alma mater.... I'm appalled.

What organisation lets its debtors away with 15 months interest-free credit? If that were the commercial world, HWU would have been in serious trouble a long time ago.

I will be raising this with Heriot-Watt and fellow students, especially if education is cut there next year from this year, within in my area of study or not. I will not let them harm my and others education for the sake of their mismanagement and corruption.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 03:00 PM
I will be raising this with Heriot-Watt and fellow students, especially if education is cut there next year from this year, within in my area of study or not. I will not let them harm my and others education for the sake of their mismanagement and corruption.

Good call.

In fact, sodd it... I don't normally get wound up enough to write to people, but they are supposed to be a centre of technology and business. Mavis, fetch me my quill.

greenginger
25-06-2013, 03:07 PM
I wonder what our organ of truth, aka. the Edinburgh Evening News will have to say about this bill. The newspaper has been banging on about the Yams being self sufficient and self funding for the best part of a year. Did the Yams lie to the news or did they just not ask .

I wonder if anyone on Tweeting terms with Allisbarry could put the question.

There is two accounts the Yams have that I hope are miles behind and due a real hefty wedge. Their accountants, Johnston Carmichael and their solicitors, HBJ both deserve to be hung out to dry for their connivance in concealing the obvious insolvency at the PBS.

Peevemor
25-06-2013, 03:09 PM
Wow didnt realise that. That is a shocker to be honest and HWU have a lot to answer for letting them off when also seeing them sign new players in front of their face. They should have threatened them with losing access to the facilities and then punted them if no payment. To allow non-payment to continue for a year and 3 months is appalling governance IMO.

HWU know they won't get the money due, however if they take that on the chin and help the yams to 'survive, then they'll have a tenant/lessee for the next x number of years that they may not have otherwise.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 03:12 PM
HWU know they won't get the money due, however if they take that on the chin and help the yams to 'survive, then they'll have a tenant/lessee for the next x number of years that they may not have otherwise.

They shouldn't have let them go beyond 6 months without kicking them out, and trying to find another tenant.

Edit... Mr Angry has written his email. I'll let you know what they say

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 03:20 PM
They shouldn't have let them go beyond 6 months without kicking them out, and trying to find another tenant.

Agree completely. How long do you let them walkover you. I am sure if they had threatened removing the facilities from Hearts use then payment would have been made. Jeezo they werent getting paid and they would have had Craig Beattie doing a photo call outside their door getting paid (or not:greengrin) £5k or so a week. What a shambles that is and they should have questions to ask about this nonsense IMO.

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 03:22 PM
HWU know they won't get the money due, however if they take that on the chin and help the yams to 'survive, then they'll have a tenant/lessee for the next x number of years that they may not have otherwise.

They wont now but they might have then. 15 months ago is before they won the cup and they werent paying for training facilities that is a joke.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 03:23 PM
I will be raising this with Heriot-Watt and fellow students, especially if education is cut there next year from this year, within in my area of study or not. I will not let them harm my and others education for the sake of their mismanagement and corruption.

It's the annual salaries of 2-3 lecturers.

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 03:25 PM
It's the annual salaries of 2-3 lecturers.

Or about 17 student fees for a year.

Treadstone
25-06-2013, 03:28 PM
What are HWU losing here that they seem to think its OK to have a non paying lodger ?

Barney McGrew
25-06-2013, 03:29 PM
It's the annual salaries of 2-3 lecturers.

I bet those affected down in Galashiels last year will be delighted to hear of the University's charitable view when it comes to dealing with Hertz.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/heriot-watt-staff-facing-huge-cuts.17459320

CentreLine
25-06-2013, 03:31 PM
I will be raising this with Heriot-Watt and fellow students, especially if education is cut there next year from this year, within in my area of study or not. I will not let them harm my and others education for the sake of their mismanagement and corruption.

Perhaps someone in the business studies dept at HWU can explain the good business practice behind this strategy

brog
25-06-2013, 03:32 PM
I bet those affected down in Galashiels last year will be delighted to hear of the University's charitable view when it comes to dealing with Hertz.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/heriot-watt-staff-facing-huge-cuts.17459320

This incident, failure to pay HW, may be the start of the tide turning & finally recognition that Yams have basically dumped on everyone in their quest for European glory etc etc!!

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 03:33 PM
Perhaps someone in the business studies dept at HWU can explain the good business practice behind this strategy

This is where I trot out the cliche "those who can do, do. Those who can't, teach." :greengrin

Apologies to any teachers on here, I know it's not true. It does, though, smack of cobbler's bairns, and I've told HWU that.

Barney McGrew
25-06-2013, 03:34 PM
I wonder if anyone on Tweeting terms with Allisbarry could put the question.

I suppose asking the University the question on their own twitter account as to why they're letting them get away with running up a bill might prompt an interesting response.

@HeriotWattUni if anyone's interested :cb

Moulin Yarns
25-06-2013, 03:37 PM
I wonder what our organ of truth, aka. the Edinburgh Evening News will have to say about this bill. The newspaper has been banging on about the Yams being self sufficient and self funding for the best part of a year. Did the Yams lie to the news or did they just not ask .

I wonder if anyone on Tweeting terms with Allisbarry could put the question.

There is two accounts the Yams have that I hope are miles behind and due a real hefty wedge. Their accountants, Johnston Carmichael and their solicitors, HBJ both deserve to be hung out to dry for their connivance in concealing the obvious insolvency at the PBS.

Have done.

Jack
25-06-2013, 03:37 PM
I will be raising this with Heriot-Watt and fellow students, especially if education is cut there next year from this year, within in my area of study or not. I will not let them harm my and others education for the sake of their mismanagement and corruption.

No idea what I'm doing putting this post in between two hairy twat posts, for the life of me I cannot see a link

I know, because I have been a beneficiary of it that for some time the yams were putting heavy pressure on suppliers to accept match tickets and hospitality packages instead of payment of services that were provided.

Of course there's nothing wrong with that sort of arrangement between 'commercial partners' as far as I am aware.


HWU know they won't get the money due, however if they take that on the chin and help the yams to 'survive, then they'll have a tenant/lessee for the next x number of years that they may not have otherwise.

jgl07
25-06-2013, 03:37 PM
They shouldn't have let them go beyond 6 months without kicking them out, and trying to find another tenant.

The problem is who else could be a tenant?

Barney McGrew
25-06-2013, 03:40 PM
The problem is who else could be a tenant?

It's not about that - a student hiring out a pitch for an hour at £20 or so would have netted them more income in the last twelve months than those shysters have provided.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 03:41 PM
The problem is who else could be a tenant?

Did they test the market?

Treadstone
25-06-2013, 03:43 PM
The problem is who else could be a tenant?

The problem is they have a tenant who is not paying for using the facilities. Don't think there is much for them to lose.

RyeSloan
25-06-2013, 03:45 PM
The problem is who else could be a tenant?

Sure there would be quite a queue of people wanting to use the facilities for nowt.

What's the point in having a tenant that doesn't pay their rent?

Bristolhibby
25-06-2013, 03:50 PM
Sure there would be quite a queue of people wanting to use the facilities for nowt.

What's the point in having a tenant that doesn't pay their rent?

Ill pay £1 for a days hire and have a massive game of football with my mates.

Thats 100% more that they have got from that pink mob for the last 15 months.

J

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 03:52 PM
Sure there would be quite a queue of people wanting to use the facilities for nowt.

What's the point in having a tenant that doesn't pay their rent?

You have to admire Hearts' business methods though.

State-of -the-art training complex for nowt, whilst we shell out £300k-500k a year.

Big team, big thinking.

:rolleyes:

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 03:59 PM
The problem is who else could be a tenant?

Probably any number of sports clubs who would have wanted to use the facilities even on an irregular basis which would have generated much more revenue than this. The main issue is teh complete lack of action on the part of HWU you would have assumed they would have sent repeated letters outlining indicating the non-payment however after a time a legal letter should have been sent and if still no action either legal proceedings and/or raising the issue publically. To have done nothing and then lost £150k is mis-management of a high order IMO.

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 04:02 PM
You have to admire Hearts' business methods though.

State-of -the-art training complex for nowt, whilst we shell out £300k-500k a year.

Big team, big thinking.

:rolleyes:

When put like that it is sickening to be honest, not just in comparison to us also all the other SPL teams who have had to pay for training facilities over the 15 months. I'll bet loads of clubs wouldnt have minded spending 150k on a new player rather than paying for training facilities.

HibeeMG
25-06-2013, 04:06 PM
I'm just getting my head around the HWU news.

As we were told that the HW training complex was an asset owned by Hearts and could possibly be sold by them, does this £150k represent them owing the money to themselves again?

basehibby
25-06-2013, 04:07 PM
I'm absolutely disgusted that the scabby Yam tramps have been allowed to scrounge their training facilities for what must be over a year, at the expense of people's further education!

Meanwhile, other football clubs have to work hard to pay for their facilities while the Yamtards trumpet about being a "big team".

From what I can gather (10K a month quoted as their rent on here), these thieving conniving lowlifes must have been on the scrounge for free training facilities WHILE they were paying out exorbitant wages to players that beat us in the SC Final just over a year ago.

Enough is enough! Far from deserving praise, whoever the lax, unprofessional excuse for a public servant is who has allowed this to happen at HW deserves the sack - get him/her out of there!

DaveF
25-06-2013, 04:07 PM
I wonder many HWU staff 'enjoyed' hospitality at Tynecastle in the last 15 months :rolleyes:

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 04:11 PM
I'm absolutely disgusted that the scabby Yam tramps have been allowed to scrounge their training facilities for what must be over a year, at the expense of people's further education!

Meanwhile, other football clubs have to work hard to pay for their facilities while the Yamtards trumpet about being a "big team".

From what I can gather (10K a month quoted as their rent on here), these thieving conniving lowlifes must have been on the scrounge for free training facilities WHILE they were paying out exorbitant wages to players that beat us in the SC Final just over a year ago.

Enough is enough! Far from deserving praise, whoever the lax, unprofessional excuse for a public servant is who has allowed this to happen at HW deserves the sack - get him/her out of there!

Couldnt agree more.

Beefster
25-06-2013, 04:19 PM
£150k is a lot of money for a University to be losing that is for sure.

Not really. Their income will be in the region of £150-200 million.

Writing off £150k to ensure many years of future income of around £120k pa makes sense. They would struggle to get another tenant.

Jack
25-06-2013, 04:34 PM
Not really. Their income will be in the region of £150-200 million.

Writing off £150k to ensure many years of future income of around £120k pa makes sense. They would struggle to get another tenant.

But HW would have no idea when or even if the yams would ever be in a position to start paying again and its not as if the world hasn't been aware of their financial predicament, so its hardly good business.

Add to no income coming in that HW have in that time had to cover the expense of maintaining the pitches and buildings used it looks even worse.

truehibernian
25-06-2013, 04:45 PM
I'm absolutely disgusted that the scabby Yam tramps have been allowed to scrounge their training facilities for what must be over a year, at the expense of people's further education!

Meanwhile, other football clubs have to work hard to pay for their facilities while the Yamtards trumpet about being a "big team".

From what I can gather (10K a month quoted as their rent on here), these thieving conniving lowlifes must have been on the scrounge for free training facilities WHILE they were paying out exorbitant wages to players that beat us in the SC Final just over a year ago.

Enough is enough! Far from deserving praise, whoever the lax, unprofessional excuse for a public servant is who has allowed this to happen at HW deserves the sack - get him/her out of there!

Danny Wilson's yearly salary could have paid off HWU - there smacks the Hearts hypocrisy. Sign a player (although didn't :greengrin), herald it whilst knowing yer skint, pay him around £130,000 a year, then allow him to train on a pitch/pitches that because of non payment of rent on said pitches you've been able to 'afford' Danny Wilson..............anyone hearing the theme tune to the Magic Roundabout :greengrin

JimBHibees
25-06-2013, 04:51 PM
Not really. Their income will be in the region of £150-200 million.

Writing off £150k to ensure many years of future income of around £120k pa makes sense. They would struggle to get another tenant.

When public money is tight it makes no sense at all when the same organisation is laying off people in Galashiels while allowing Hearts to run roughshod. It wont look too good a business decision if/when they are liquidated will it?

WestEndHibee
25-06-2013, 04:51 PM
Not really. Their income will be in the region of £150-200 million.

Writing off £150k to ensure many years of future income of around £120k pa makes sense. They would struggle to get another tenant.

I'm disgusted that it's so easy for them to write this money off. I'll be joining Heriot watt this year for a masters course for what is a very large amount of money. It means I spend my summer working any job I can for any amount of money and I'll have to take on a job over the year to make sure I can afford it which could have a negative impact on my grades.

Yet if I just used my savings to live a great life going on holiday, buying nice expensive clothes, eating out every night before telling HW that I would not be able to pay my fees then I would be kicked off my course and I would (rightly) be told that it served me right.

sidneyhibbie
25-06-2013, 05:02 PM
They are also behind with the Rates by a 6 figure sum i am told, can anyone find out the exact figures ?

Ozyhibby
25-06-2013, 05:03 PM
With all due respect you obviously have no idea how higher education is run or funded in Scotland.

You're right about that but I'm pretty shocked that is run in such a way as to provide free training facilities for Hearts. Maybe you can explain it better?

The Falcon
25-06-2013, 05:06 PM
I have to say that I am less than impressed with HWU if that is the case. In fact, they were my alma mater.... I'm appalled.

What organisation lets its debtors away with 15 months interest-free credit? If that were the commercial world, HWU would have been in serious trouble a long time ago.

You would imagine that HW would have budgeted for this income.

TowerHibs
25-06-2013, 05:15 PM
in those 15 months - wages to skatcel, Beattie, Hammill, Stephenson, Black etc were all paid.

Puts a complete mockery on what clubs like Hibs, Celtic, aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Killie, St Mirren, Falkirk in fact every professional and amatuer team is doing to keep guys fit and training.

Easy to say as a Hibbie but just as a footballer its disgusting. Compare to hibs, in that period of time they are £600k better off to put onto wages. Or a fee for Griffiths

Then you think about the tax and everything else that hasn't been paid......if that were the hibs i would have no problem walking away - cheating, nothing less

Purple & Green
25-06-2013, 05:21 PM
Seems like fraud to me.

Hibercelona
25-06-2013, 05:22 PM
Not really. Their income will be in the region of £150-200 million.

Writing off £150k to ensure many years of future income of around £120k pa makes sense. They would struggle to get another tenant.

150 to 200 million a year?

Well they clearly don't need my money. I'm just going to stop paying.

YehButNoBut
25-06-2013, 05:23 PM
Beats me how they will have the brass neck to turn up there on Thursday as if everything is hunky dory.

They really have no shame. :jamboak:

Barney McGrew
25-06-2013, 05:26 PM
in those 15 months - wages to skatcel, Beattie, Hammill, Stephenson, Black etc were all paid.

Puts a complete mockery on what clubs like Hibs, Celtic, aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Killie, St Mirren, Falkirk in fact every professional and amatuer team is doing to keep guys fit and training.

Easy to say as a Hibbie but just as a footballer its disgusting. Compare to hibs, in that period of time they are £600k better off to put onto wages. Or a fee for Griffiths

Then you think about the tax and everything else that hasn't been paid......if that were the hibs i would have no problem walking away - cheating, nothing less

Rates, Police, Tax and Training Facilities all bumped by them after signing players they KNEW they couldn't afford and that's just the ones that we know about so far.

And they expect people to feel sorry for them and put their hand in their pockets to bail them out? Mugs.

twiceinathens
25-06-2013, 05:37 PM
"some creditors take the hump when they’re owed money from a company in administration." Just magine having the brass neck to get upset just because a wonderful football institution like hearts owe you a few quid.:confused:

Ozyhibby
25-06-2013, 05:39 PM
The problem is who else could be a tenant?

The national performance centre for sport is currently looking for a home and Heriot Watt have expressed an interest.

Kaiser1962
25-06-2013, 05:44 PM
Not really. Their income will be in the region of £150-200 million.

Writing off £150k to ensure many years of future income of around £120k pa makes sense. They would struggle to get another tenant.


The running costs of the facility will still have to met, as Hearts have still been using it, and the % age that was being met by Hearts rent will now be having to be paid from other funds. It is reasonable that HW would be looking to clear about a third as profit from the rent so the £150k rental income lost will result in them being £250k out.

There is also no guarantees that Hearts will survive and even if they did I would throw away the current "agreement", which Hearts have breached, and charge them 20k a month which would be payable in advance.

clerriehibs
25-06-2013, 05:45 PM
Anyone out there still not convinced that homfc were and are cheating?

Capt Mainwaring
25-06-2013, 05:52 PM
But but but . . . Hearts have not been getting any Funding from their owners for some time and the Board and supporters have assured us that they are "Self sustaining". Paying their players, paying the Bills............

I don't understand - how can this be?

jgl07
25-06-2013, 06:10 PM
Is the situation with Heriot-Watt not similar to other outstanding bills?

The £150,000 is ling gone thanks to the efforts of crooked accountants signing off Hearts accounts for the past few years. They will have to take their chance with a CVA. That is presumably the same with electricity bills and the like.

From the coming season, I would assume that Heriot-Watt will be looking for cash in hand before they let them anywhere near the place.

We will find out soon.

Fife-Hibee
25-06-2013, 06:16 PM
F...ing sickening ! Die ya f...ing tramps" big team my ar se !!!

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 06:17 PM
Is the situation with Heriot-Watt not similar to other outstanding bills?

The £150,000 is ling gone thanks to the efforts of crooked accountants signing off Hearts accounts for the past few years. They will have to take their chance with a CVA. That is presumably the same with electricity bills and the like.

From the coming season, I would assume that Heriot-Watt will be looking for cash in hand before they let them anywhere near the place.

We will find out soon.

Crooked accountants? Really?

I it's not their fault that HWU have such appalling credit control.

Hibercelona
25-06-2013, 06:19 PM
F...ing sickening ! Die ya f...ing tramps" big team my ar se !!!

No need to be so poetic about it. Just let it all out. :greengrin

Billy Whizz
25-06-2013, 06:22 PM
Crooked accountants? Really?

I it's not their fault that HWU have such appalling credit control.

Maybe didn't want to rock the boat. I play there every week, and it was a well known fact, that they were well behind with their payments

clerriehibs
25-06-2013, 06:26 PM
Nothing, not a jot, on sickbag about this latest rip-off.

However, it's looking like the hot thread of the next day or so might be that "sickening, thieving" bus convener who skipped with some fans' money at the THREE-two cup final.

I assume the hypocrisy is simply unrecognised over there.

lucky
25-06-2013, 06:27 PM
Don't get how OzzyHibs is getting it tight. He quite rightly has pointed out that HW should be held to account for the donation to the Yams. the only people who can do that is the Scottisg Governemnt. Mike Russell, Education Minister, has interfered in lots of other Educational establishments, forced resignations of College Principles and merged colleges. So why should he not make HW accountable for this money? After all it is tax payers money.

Mon Dieu4
25-06-2013, 06:31 PM
So between HW, the Polis and the council they are due £200k or so to the Edinburgh Tax payers, that is shocking and if we see the list of creditors im sure it will only get worse

disgusting club, die die die

Hibercelona
25-06-2013, 06:32 PM
Nothing, not a jot, on sickbag about this latest rip-off.

However, it's looking like the hot thread of the next day or so might be that "sickening, thieving" bus convener who skipped with some fans' money at the THREE-two cup final.

I assume the hypocrisy is simply unrecognised over there.

"see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"

Just Alf
25-06-2013, 06:35 PM
Don't get how OzzyHibs is getting it tight. He quite rightly has pointed out that HW should be held to account for the donation to the Yams. the only people who can do that is the Scottisg Governemnt. Mike Russell, Education Minister, has interfered in lots of other Educational establishments, forced resignations of College Principles and merged colleges. So why should he not make HW accountable for this money? After all it is tax payers money.

That's true, the reason poor Oz is getting it tight I think is that he's blaming the government for something that is internal to HW...... Don't get me wrong, in the fullness of time if no one is held to account in some way then it's a correct assumption but we ain't there yet, at the moment the only peeps who could have done things differently work for HW?

Kaiser1962
25-06-2013, 06:38 PM
Maybe didn't want to rock the boat. I play there every week, and it was a well known fact, that they were well behind with their payments

HW probably sought, and were given, assurances that payment was forthcoming which didnt materialise.


It is very easy for shysters to take good people to the cleaners, sadly.


Edit: The first line is speculation on my part. The second may result in someone else being fired because of those liars and cheats.

RoslinInstHibby
25-06-2013, 06:38 PM
So we are believing the daily record now? I obvs cant go into details but dont believe everything u read....

Sergey
25-06-2013, 06:41 PM
So we are believing the daily record now? I obvs cant go into details but dont believe everything u read....

Why so?

It was the DR that broke the Yams in Admin story - they have a good source. I think I might even know who it is.

Go do one, as the DR is a decent rag.

clerriehibs
25-06-2013, 06:43 PM
So we are believing the daily record now? I obvs cant go into details but dont believe everything u read....


You can, you know you can, go on go on go on go on ...

Hibercelona
25-06-2013, 06:45 PM
So we are believing the daily record now? I obvs cant go into details but dont believe everything u read....

"I know something you don't, but i'm not going to tell you" type post.

We get quite a few of those...

Mon Dieu4
25-06-2013, 06:45 PM
So we are believing the daily record now? I obvs cant go into details but dont believe everything u read....

The amount could be made up but the quote is directly from the Administrator stating HW are now a creditor, so they are definitely due something unless the admin just decided to tell a national newspaper a pack of lies for a giggle

jgl07
25-06-2013, 06:46 PM
Don't get how OzzyHibs is getting it tight. He quite rightly has pointed out that HW should be held to account for the donation to the Yams. the only people who can do that is the Scottish Governemnt. Mike Russell, Education Minister, has interfered in lots of other Educational establishments, forced resignations of College Principles and merged colleges. So why should he not make HW accountable for this money? After all it is tax payers money.

What is he going to do? Close them down because they were lax in chasing accounts?

Mike Russell tried (and failed) to force a merger between Dundee University and Abertay.

The Scottish Government has no jurisdiction whatsoever. Universities are essentially private organizations. They receive much of their funding from Government but for specific purposes such as teaching students and undertaking research. Much though I like to bash the SNP you cannot touch them on this one.

Deansy
25-06-2013, 06:48 PM
I'm absolutely disgusted that the scabby Yam tramps have been allowed to scrounge their training facilities for what must be over a year, at the expense of people's further education!

Meanwhile, other football clubs have to work hard to pay for their facilities while the Yamtards trumpet about being a "big team".

From what I can gather (10K a month quoted as their rent on here), these thieving conniving lowlifes must have been on the scrounge for free training facilities WHILE they were paying out exorbitant wages to players that beat us in the SC Final just over a year ago.

Enough is enough! Far from deserving praise, whoever the lax, unprofessional excuse for a public servant is who has allowed this to happen at HW deserves the sack - get him/her out of there!

If it's true re '15-months Non-Payment' that means they stopped paying in January 2012, the same month they signed Craig Beattie, the same player who scored against St. Mirren (who were rumoured to be interested in Beattie) and their winner in the Semi-Final qualifying for that final. And yet, they deny cheating .........................

RoslinInstHibby
25-06-2013, 06:50 PM
The amount could be made up but the quote is directly from the Administrator stating HW are now a creditor, so they are definitely due something unless the admin just decided to tell a national newspaper a pack of lies for a giggle

They are due rent, no 2 ways about it but the 15 months bit is false. My personal view is that this has come at pretty good time for the uni as they are seriously pushing for the Scotland sport thing. Defo would be cheaper to convert the yams centre than build from scratch.

Ozyhibby
25-06-2013, 06:51 PM
That's true, the reason poor Oz is getting it tight I think is that he's blaming the government for something that is internal to HW...... Don't get me wrong, in the fullness of time if no one is held to account in some way then it's a correct assumption but we ain't there yet, at the moment the only peeps who could have done things differently work for HW?

The only way anything happens here is if you make things uncomfortable for the politicians. Strongly worded letters to the uni are not going to cut it.
The reason I singled out the SNP (who i voted for)was to spark a reaction (trolling? :-) ) and get a debate going. This news was released this morning but had almost passed without comment from most on here.
I'm not much of a letter writer so thought I'd try spark those that can into action.
I'm a big boy and can take any abuse that may come my way.
Finishing these ***** is very important and pressure should be applied on multiple fronts.

greenginger
25-06-2013, 06:54 PM
They are also behind with the Rates by a 6 figure sum i am told, can anyone find out the exact figures ?

Not quite true. I got an update of the position Via an FOI request last month.

They had paid all their business rates for 2012 - 13, but were due £ 6700 in rental charges for that year.

For year 2013-14 they had nothing outstanding, but that was at the end of April which is a non-charge month, and they were due £ 2860 for April rent.

Assuming they made no more payments, what they are due is May and half June rates and rent, approx. £ 15,000 plus £ 4920 in the current year.

A rough total of £ 29,500 plus the £ 17,406.80 due for police charges.

Jack Hackett
25-06-2013, 06:54 PM
One of the arguments you get from the yamtards re paying the wages late, is that they got paid eventually....Indeed they did, but they're too thick to recognize the fact that it was always at someone else's expense

Sergey
25-06-2013, 06:58 PM
Not quite true. I got an update of the position Via an FOI request last month.

They had paid all their business rates for 2012 - 13, but were due £ 6700 in rental charges for that year.

For year 2013-14 they had nothing outstanding, but that was at the end of April which is a non-charge month, and they were due £ 2860 for April rent.

Assuming they made no more payments, what they are due is May and half June rates and rent, approx. £ 15,000 plus £ 4920 in the current year.

A rough total of £ 29,500 plus the £ 17,406.80 due for police charges.

:aok:... best not to waste too much time replying to tarradiddles, GG.

Kaiser1962
25-06-2013, 06:59 PM
If it's true re '15-months Non-Payment' that means they stopped paying in January 2012, the same month they signed Craig Beattie, the same player who scored against St. Mirren (who were rumoured to be interested in Beattie) and their winner in the Semi-Final qualifying for that final. And yet, they deny cheating .........................


Was this not around the time that UBIG ceased to support Hearts financially?

Just Alf
25-06-2013, 07:04 PM
The only way anything happens here is if you make things uncomfortable for the politicians. Strongly worded letters to the uni are not going to cut it.
The reason I singled out the SNP (who i voted for)was to spark a reaction (trolling? :-) ) and get a debate going. This news was released this morning but had almost passed without comment from most on here.
I'm not much of a letter writer so thought I'd try spark those that can into action.
I'm a big boy and can take any abuse that may come my way.
Finishing these ***** is very important and pressure should be applied on multiple fronts.

Amen to that! :D

LioNeilMessi
25-06-2013, 07:05 PM
What does Heart's £10k pm 'rent' get them? I assume there are substantial running costs on top of that which justifies Hibs paying the £300k+ to keep EM going.

brog
25-06-2013, 07:07 PM
Was this not around the time that UBIG ceased to support Hearts financially?

You mean, became self-sufficient surely! :wink:

Pedantic_Hibee
25-06-2013, 07:08 PM
Is Barry Anderson's position as a journalist now untenable? He has been shown up good and proper lately. Puppet on a string.

Just Alf
25-06-2013, 07:10 PM
Latest on brokeback is that they should hold a 7 a side tournament to raise cash at .... Wait for it! ...... Aw hell ... You guessed!..... Maybe it's to pay the lease fees? :D

Jack Hackett
25-06-2013, 07:19 PM
Latest on brokeback is that they should hold a 7 a side tournament to raise cash at .... Wait for it! ...... Aw hell ... You guessed!..... Maybe it's to pay the lease fees? :D

No shame. They plunge depths Captain Nemo would baulk at

Kato
25-06-2013, 07:28 PM
I obvs cant go into details

Obvs.

Beefster
25-06-2013, 07:33 PM
150 to 200 million a year?

Well they clearly don't need my money. I'm just going to stop paying.

Yup, £150-200 million pa probably. Just under half of what Edinburgh University take in.

Good luck with not paying but they'll likely throw you out because you're worth very little to them in future years so there's no future income to protect. Hearts out of admin could be worth over a million over the course of a decade.

Of course, HWU could tell Hearts to **** right off, get 5% of the outstanding fee in a CVA and then be left £120k pa out of pocket every year from then on. That would be stoopid though.

I hate Hearts as much as the next man but its pointless getting outraged at an institution writing off a balance for them in order to protect future income.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 08:37 PM
What is he going to do? Close them down because they were lax in chasing accounts?

Mike Russell tried (and failed) to force a merger between Dundee University and Abertay.

The Scottish Government has no jurisdiction whatsoever. Universities are essentially private organizations. They receive much of their funding from Government but for specific purposes such as teaching students and undertaking research. Much though I like to bash the SNP you cannot touch them on this one.

As a funder, they are entitled to ask questions about the governance of the University. If it's correct that no rent has been collected for 15 months, that begs questions about the credit control and other aspects of their financial operations. If one creditor has had such an easy ride, how many others have?

I agree that the Government can't be blamed, but they are within their rights to be concerned and to ask the questions we are all asking.

Liberal Hibby
25-06-2013, 08:45 PM
I've emailed a contact at HWU - on the academic side - but in a management position and here's what he said:


First I’ve heard of this.

If true, then I suspect that the story is:

+ it buys huge amounts of local good will

+ we’ll get the money back eventually anyway

+ we’re owed considerably more in unpaid fees e.g. from destitute Syrian PG students

The Watt is flush with dosh right now and actively hiring new academic staff when other Unis are laying them off, so I doubt if anyone here is going to get upset in the short term.


Make of it what you will. He's promised to ask a few questions though.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 08:45 PM
What does Heart's £10k pm 'rent' get them? I assume there are substantial running costs on top of that which justifies Hibs paying the £300k+ to keep EM going.

It will be use of the facilities, at certain times, only.

Our costs include wages, utilities, rates etc. But it is ours, for use as and how we like.

The relative merits are on another thread. :greengrin

Biggie
25-06-2013, 08:47 PM
I'm quite frankly disgusted if it's true that Heriot Watt are willing to let Hearts still use their facilites despite being over 150K in arrears to them already, and there be little or no prospect of future payment. What are they, a publicly funded university, or a charity! So, why should anyone else paying to use their facilites continue to do so? They should just copy Hearts and stop paying now.

In fact why should any other football club bother to pay anyone for anything anymore? Just overspend like crazy and then thumb your nose at your creditors! "Awww we're a puir wee fitba club, geeza break, we're special"

No wonder society is going down the tubes. No responsibility, no consequences, no rules that can't be bent or broken if you know the right people.

This......Nuff said

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 08:48 PM
I've emailed a contact at HWU - on the academic side - but in a management position and here's what he said:



Make of it what you will. He's promised to ask a few questions though.

"They'll get the money back eventually"???? I hope he doesn't mean that.:greengrin

I have also emailed HWU, for clarification. Very interested to know what they say.

LeighLoyal
25-06-2013, 08:50 PM
Where do the beggars train if they're bumping Heriot Watt their money? I assume they are now barred.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 09:00 PM
Where do the beggars train if they're bumping Heriot Watt their money? I assume they are now barred.

No, they're back there on Thursday for pre-season training.

LeighLoyal
25-06-2013, 09:04 PM
No, they're back there on Thursday for pre-season training.


:confused: Just as well I'm not a benefactor of Heriot Watt. Here's my money that also subsidises your faculty of HOMFC.

jgl07
25-06-2013, 09:08 PM
What does Heart's £10k pm 'rent' get them? I assume there are substantial running costs on top of that which justifies Hibs paying the £300k+ to keep EM going.

I would assume that the cost of running East Mains includes staffing.

I do not see how some ex farm buildings can cost £300,000 to run.

sidneyhibbie
25-06-2013, 09:26 PM
Rent payments are due on 1st of every month so as of end of this month ( in a few days time ) its 160k FACT Free loaders i personally have written to HWU And asked for an Exlpenation 160k in unpaid rent is outragous.

I Wnt to know how long this goes on for.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 09:30 PM
Rent payments are due on 1st of every month so as of end of this month ( in a few days time ) its 160k FACT Free loaders i personally have written to HWU And asked for an Exlpenation 160k in unpaid rent is outragous.

I Wnt to know how long this goes on for.

Where are you getting this from? Other than the Record, I mean.

And, are you sure about it being due on the 1st?

sidneyhibbie
25-06-2013, 09:35 PM
Where are you getting this from? Other than the Record, I mean.

And, are you sure about it being due on the 1st?

I Had a meeting with the Govenor of the University about other business i slipped in the question he was very Angry about the situation to say the least.

CropleyWasGod
25-06-2013, 09:36 PM
I Had a meeting with the Govenor of the University about other business i slipped in the question he was very Angry about the situation to say the least.

Angry with whom?

Presumably his credit control department. :rolleyes:

Did you mean the Chancellor or Principal? HWU don't have a Governor.

Liberal Hibby
25-06-2013, 09:43 PM
I Had a meeting with the Govenor of the University about other business i slipped in the question he was very Angry about the situation to say the least.

Hmmm. It's Principal in Scotland - are you sure about this?

jgl07
25-06-2013, 09:46 PM
I Had a meeting with the Govenor of the University about other business i slipped in the question he was very Angry about the situation to say the least.

The Governor?

Heriot-Watt do not have a Governor.

They have a Principal/Vice Chancellor and an honourary Chancellor.

GREEN WARLORD
25-06-2013, 09:52 PM
Seen two Yam walking wounded out on the training pitches this morning, so they're not away yet. My place of work will smell fresh again, once they have left. :greengrin

Kaiser1962
25-06-2013, 09:53 PM
Of course, HWU could tell Hearts to **** right off, get 5% of the outstanding fee in a CVA and then be left £120k pa out of pocket every year from then on. That would be stoopid though.



What happens if Hearts administration runs on for a couple of years, like Motherwells?

Hibercelona
25-06-2013, 09:59 PM
What happens if Hearts administration runs on for a couple of years, like Motherwells?

Better yet.

What happens if they DIE?

McSwanky
25-06-2013, 10:08 PM
I Had a meeting with the Govenor of the University about other business i slipped in the question he was very Angry about the situation to say the least.

So what was the name of the person you met? Genuinely interested.

Lucius Apuleius
26-06-2013, 05:50 AM
As an aside, is 10k not a heck of a lot of wonga for what they get? An average of 22 week days in a month mean they are paying about 450 smackers a day. If, as we are led to believe, footballers only train from 9-12 each of these days that is 150 quid an hour. What sort of income would HWU realistically expect to bring in for that period if the yams were not there for the same facilities?

Hibercelona
26-06-2013, 05:57 AM
As an aside, is 10k not a heck of a lot of wonga for what they get? An average of 22 week days in a month mean they are paying about 450 smackers a day. If, as we are led to believe, footballers only train from 9-12 each of these days that is 150 quid an hour. What sort of income would HWU realistically expect to bring in for that period if the yams were not there for the same facilities?

It works out a fair bit cheaper than it does for a football club to run their own ground.

Running our own ground costs 2-3x as much.

150 quid an hour isn't that much, considering the squad size and the staff. They are also paying reservation costs as well.

Scorrie
26-06-2013, 06:12 AM
So. are HWU going to accept the Yam default or are they going to try and get some of the money back? I'm curious as it's my alma mater as well and they get in contact a lot asking for me for money. It's a bit curious to see that they may be prepared to write this debt off

steakbake
26-06-2013, 06:18 AM
It's possible they might write it off - they'll write off a higher level of money each year in missing fees due from students.

Besides, what are they going to do? HoMFC don't have the cash to pay it so where's it going to come from? They'll just have to join the queue of creditors who might get some pence in the pound back.

I'm sure at some point they'll have to reconsider the arrangements but for the moment, it's not like they're going to have those facilities used daily in the same way if Hearts become persona non grata at Riccarton.

Geo_1875
26-06-2013, 06:27 AM
As an aside, is 10k not a heck of a lot of wonga for what they get? An average of 22 week days in a month mean they are paying about 450 smackers a day. If, as we are led to believe, footballers only train from 9-12 each of these days that is 150 quid an hour. What sort of income would HWU realistically expect to bring in for that period if the yams were not there for the same facilities?

I believe they have use of the sports science facilities as well. They will not just be fixing broken players from 10 to 12 in the morning. Their hourly rate will be nothing like £150 and whatever it is will be nothing like a commercial rent.

Hibernia Na Eir
26-06-2013, 06:32 AM
I will be raising this with Heriot-Watt and fellow students, especially if education is cut there next year from this year, within in my area of study or not. I will not let them harm my and others education for the sake of their mismanagement and corruption.

It's a very good point.
if I was about to learn my fees were to rise next term and I found out a football club were due a huge amount to the university, but decided to write off that debt, I'd be mighty peeved!

CropleyWasGod
26-06-2013, 07:11 AM
So. are HWU going to accept the Yam default or are they going to try and get some of the money back? I'm curious as it's my alma mater as well and they get in contact a lot asking for me for money. It's a bit curious to see that they may be prepared to write this debt off

They have no option. They are a creditor like anyone else.

greenginger
26-06-2013, 07:27 AM
They have no option. They are a creditor like anyone else.


Could some of the students on the Somalian Seamanship Course not hold of few of their stars hostage for a ransom when preseason starts. :greengrin

Beefster
26-06-2013, 07:43 AM
Rent payments are due on 1st of every month so as of end of this month ( in a few days time ) its 160k FACT Free loaders i personally have written to HWU And asked for an Exlpenation 160k in unpaid rent is outragous.

I Wnt to know how long this goes on for.


I Had a meeting with the Govenor of the University about other business i slipped in the question he was very Angry about the situation to say the least.

Why have you written to HWU when you have a business relationship with a non-existent Governor and must have only met him/her today?


What happens if Hearts administration runs on for a couple of years, like Motherwells?

The same as administration lasting four months, just a bit longer.

worcesterhibby
26-06-2013, 07:59 AM
Can I suggest that someone based in Scotland submits the Freedom Of Information request below:

It should be directed to
Andrew M Menzies

Director of Finance

A.M.Menzies@hw.ac.uk


Dear Sir/Madam

As a tax payer I am appalled to hear that Heriot Watt University (HW) is continuing to offer facilities to Heart of Midlothian Football Club (HMFC) while the club has failed to pay rent for a term reported to be up to 15 months. Quite how the university can run "Business" courses while allowing privately owned companies to consistently fail to pay their bills is quite staggering.


While HMFC were failing to pay your bills they were busy signing players they couldn't afford and paying huge wages to footballers they could not afford. They are guilty of financial doping of the worst kind. It seems to me that HW have consistently supported this financial doping by allowing HMFC to use their facilities despite non-payment of bills.


I would be grateful if you would answer the following questions. I ask them under the terms of the freedom of information Act




How much money do HMFC currently owe to HW ?
When did they last pay any of the bills to you on time ?
What measures have you taken in the last 15 months to recover this debt ?
Have any HW staff been offered and/or accepted any hospitality packages at HMFC in the last 2 years ?
Will you confirm that HMFC will now, not be allowed to use your facilities without payment up front in future ?
Who is the member of HW staff who decided to allow HMFC to continue to use sporting facilities despite non payment of their account ?
Do you allow any other privately owned companies to access your sporting facilities for free ?
By way of balance have you offered your sporting facilities free of charge to any other Professional Football Club ?

CropleyWasGod
26-06-2013, 08:16 AM
Why have you written to HWU when you have a business relationship with a non-existent Governor and must have only met him/her today?



The same as administration lasting four months, just a bit longer.

.. which would make, according to the reports, 19 months without rent. At that point, there would be no guarantee of any future income from HMFC.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
26-06-2013, 08:31 AM
Can I suggest that someone based in Scotland submits the Freedom Of Information request below:

It should be directed to
Andrew M Menzies

Director of Finance

A.M.Menzies@hw.ac.uk


Dear Sir/Madam

As a tax payer I am appalled to hear that Heriot Watt University (HW) is continuing to offer facilities to Heart of Midlothian Football Club (HMFC) while the club has failed to pay rent for a term reported to be up to 15 months. Quite how the university can run "Business" courses while allowing privately owned companies to consistently fail to pay their bills is quite staggering.


While HMFC were failing to pay your bills they were busy signing players they couldn't afford and paying huge wages to footballers they could not afford. They are guilty of financial doping of the worst kind. It seems to me that HW have consistently supported this financial doping by allowing HMFC to use their facilities despite non-payment of bills.

I would be grateful if you would answer the following questions. I ask them under the terms of the freedom of information Act




How much money do HMFC currently owe to HW ?
When did they last pay any of the bills to you on time ?
What measures have you taken in the last 15 months to recover this debt ?
Have any HW staff been offered and/or accepted any hospitality packages at HMFC in the last 2 years ?
Will you confirm that HMFC will now, not be allowed to use your facilities without payment up front in future ?
Who is the member of HW staff who decided to allow HMFC to continue to use sporting facilities despite non payment of their account ?
Do you allow any other privately owned companies to access your sporting facilities for free ?
By way of balance have you offered your sporting facilities free of charge to any other Professional Football Club ?





Have just done an FOI request. Also done one to the council asking about safety certifcates for Tynecastle.

Will post replies if, and when i get them.

worcesterhibby
26-06-2013, 08:47 AM
Have just done an FOI request. Also done one to the council asking about safety certifcates for Tynecastle.

Will post replies if, and when i get them.

Under the terms of the FOI act you should expect to receive a reply within 20 days, If you don't get a reply within 20 days you can then complain via the Information Commissioners Office http://www.ico.org.uk/complaints

cabbageandribs1875
26-06-2013, 08:53 AM
How much money do HMFC currently owe to HW ?
When did they last pay any of the bills to you on time ?
What measures have you taken in the last 15 months to recover this debt ?
Have any HW staff been offered and/or accepted any hospitality packages at HMFC in the last 2 years ?
Will you confirm that HMFC will now, not be allowed to use your facilities without payment up front in future ?
Who is the member of HW staff who decided to allow HMFC to continue to use sporting facilities despite non payment of their account ?
Do you allow any other privately owned companies to access your sporting facilities for free ?
By way of balance have you offered your sporting facilities free of charge to any other Professional Football Club ?




Have just done an FOI request. Also done one to the council asking about safety certifcates for Tynecastle.

Will post replies if, and when i get them.

some very good Q's, look very much forward to any answers given :agree:

Beefster
26-06-2013, 10:51 AM
.. which would make, according to the reports, 19 months without rent. At that point, there would be no guarantee of any future income from HMFC.

I think Bryan Jackson has said that he wants to start paying HWU again pretty soon (presumably after renegotiating the contract).

No guarantees of future income but a higher probability of getting some.

josef k
26-06-2013, 11:11 AM
Have just done an FOI request. Also done one to the council asking about safety certifcates for Tynecastle.

Will post replies if, and when i get them.

Good work. They will have to reply.

Is it just the council that are involved in safety certificates? (Not HSE or Fire brigade?). Would also be worth asking for related correspondence.

StevieC
26-06-2013, 11:28 AM
What happens if they DIE?

Then they refuse to lease to the new company until all outstanding debts from the old company are paid in full. :wink:

josef k
26-06-2013, 11:43 AM
HW's governance structure involves a 'court':

'Heriot-Watt University is regulated by the Court, which is the body that ultimately oversees all the University's financial and contractual issues, and academic undertakings.

The names of all members of the court are listed on their website:

http://www.hw.ac.uk/about/governance/court.htm

Unfortunately no email addresses are provided. However one is a Councillor Ricky Henderson. He runs a blog where he makes clear he is a Hearts supporter:

"Tomorrow I shall head for Hampden, more in hope that expectation, for the League Cup Final. I think that St Mirren are underrated as a football side and they certainly carry plenty of threat up front. However, Hearts won't be lacking motivation, fired up with the infectious enthusiasm of new boss Gary Locke. Looking forward to it. Determined to have a good day, come what may. Good luck Hearts."

Contact details are provided on his blog: http://rickyhenderson.blogspot.co.uk/ I wonder how much scrutiny he was providing under these circumstances?

Sylar
26-06-2013, 11:51 AM
Rent payments are due on 1st of every month so as of end of this month ( in a few days time ) its 160k FACT Free loaders i personally have written to HWU And asked for an Exlpenation 160k in unpaid rent is outragous.

I Wnt to know how long this goes on for.

Well I categorically believe you then - in fact, all that was missing was the ever-arrogant 'END OF' post to seal the deal.


I Had a meeting with the Govenor of the University about other business i slipped in the question he was very Angry about the situation to say the least.

As per the above posts, HW doesn't have any kind of 'Governor' - perhaps this can chalked up to not knowing terminology of University hierarchies but I would always go into a meeting knowing a bit about the person and his role within a structure - including his title.

I'm also keen to see if you'll provide the name of the person you met with because 2 of the higher ups within the HW University structure are heavily involved with a research project we're jointly involved in and we have access to their calendars from here as a result.

CropleyWasGod
26-06-2013, 11:52 AM
Well I categorically believe you then - in fact, all that was missing was the ever-arrogant 'END OF' post to seal the deal.



As per the above posts, HW doesn't have any kind of 'Governor' - perhaps this can chalked up to not knowing terminology of University hierarchies but I would always go into a meeting knowing a bit about the person and his role within a structure - including his title.

I'm also keen to see if you'll provide the name of the person you met with because 2 of the higher ups within the HW University structure are heavily involved with a research project we're jointly involved in and we have access to their calendars from here as a result.

When do they play 5-a-sides?

And when do they pay for it?

Sylar
26-06-2013, 11:54 AM
When do they play 5-a-sides?

And when do they pay for it?

If you mean Hearts, I've no clue :greengrin

JimBHibees
26-06-2013, 11:57 AM
Well I categorically believe you then - in fact, all that was missing was the ever-arrogant 'END OF' post to seal the deal.



As per the above posts, HW doesn't have any kind of 'Governor' - perhaps this can chalked up to not knowing terminology of University hierarchies but I would always go into a meeting knowing a bit about the person and his role within a structure - including his title.

I'm also keen to see if you'll provide the name of the person you met with because 2 of the higher ups within the HW University structure are heavily involved with a research project we're jointly involved in and we have access to their calendars from here as a result.

So do I there is a blocked out meeting for both which has run for 10 of the last 15 months.

10-12 Kick about with Lockey and the boys.
Great guys but we always provide the lunch.


:greengrin

Liberal Hibby
26-06-2013, 11:59 AM
HW's governance structure involves a 'court':

'Heriot-Watt University is regulated by the Court, which is the body that ultimately oversees all the University's financial and contractual issues, and academic undertakings.

The names of all members of the court are listed on their website:

http://www.hw.ac.uk/about/governance/court.htm

Unfortunately no email addresses are provided. However one is a Councillor Ricky Henderson. He runs a blog where he makes clear he is a Hearts supporter:

"Tomorrow I shall head for Hampden, more in hope that expectation, for the League Cup Final. I think that St Mirren are underrated as a football side and they certainly carry plenty of threat up front. However, Hearts won't be lacking motivation, fired up with the infectious enthusiasm of new boss Gary Locke. Looking forward to it. Determined to have a good day, come what may. Good luck Hearts."

Contact details are provided on his blog: http://rickyhenderson.blogspot.co.uk/ I wonder how much scrutiny he was providing under these circumstances?

Had a quick look at the CVs of the rest - most educated outside Edinburgh - but about half a dozen from Reekie - all at private school and all mention rugby. Then there's this guy: http://www.hw.ac.uk/about/governance/allan-gray.htm

Says he follows 'his local team' - anyone know him and what's his team?

Sylar
26-06-2013, 12:01 PM
So do I there is a blocked out meeting for both which has run for 10 of the last 15 months.

10-12 Kick about with Lockey and the boys.
Great guys but we always provide the lunch.


:greengrin

:greengrin

steakbake
26-06-2013, 12:09 PM
First there's folk moaning that professed Yam, FM Alex Salmond, deigns to say he hopes they make it.


Then we're outraged at Foulkes abusing his position and wasting the Lithuanian ambassador's time with his pleading.


Next people are furious that Mike Russell hasn't personally gone in, sacked the finance manager and the ''Govenor" of Heriot Watt because after all, we the taxpayers apparently own every brick and happening at the HW campus.


Now people are wondering whether a simple counsellor was asleep on the job while the fuds racked up a massive debt.


Which is it?


You can't have your cake and eat it... unless you're running a bake stall in which case you can, but you'll only have to pay yourself for the cakes you eat, so its like owing yourself the money.


And we all know where that leads...

brog
26-06-2013, 12:12 PM
Had a quick look at the CVs of the rest - most educated outside Edinburgh - but about half a dozen from Reekie - all at private school and all mention rugby. Then there's this guy: http://www.hw.ac.uk/about/governance/allan-gray.htm

Says he follows 'his local team' - anyone know him and what's his team?

He seems a really normal guy, worked his way up, so that rules the Yams out!! :wink:

Sylar
26-06-2013, 12:14 PM
First there's folk moaning that professed Yam, FM Alex Salmond, deigns to say he hopes they make it. Then we're outraged at Foulkes abusing his position and wasting the Lithuanian ambassador's time with his pleading. Next people are furious that Mike Russell hasn't personally gone in, sacked the finance manager and the ''Govenor" of Heriot Watt because after all, we the taxpayers apparently own every brick and happening at the HW campus. Now people are wondering whether a simple counsellor was asleep on the job while the fuds racked up a massive debt.

Which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it... unless you're running a bake stall in which case you can, but you'll only have to pay yourself for the cakes you eat, so its like owing yourself the money. And we all know where that leads...

Mmmm....cake...

steakbake
26-06-2013, 12:25 PM
Mmmm....cake...

How much?

One Day Soon
26-06-2013, 12:38 PM
Can I suggest that someone based in Scotland submits the Freedom Of Information request below:

It should be directed to
Andrew M MenziesDirector of FinanceA.M.Menzies@hw.ac.uk
Dear Sir/Madam

As a tax payer I am appalled to hear that Heriot Watt University (HW) is continuing to offer facilities to Heart of Midlothian Football Club (HMFC) while the club has failed to pay rent for a term reported to be up to 15 months. Quite how the university can run "Business" courses while allowing privately owned companies to consistently fail to pay their bills is quite staggering.


While HMFC were failing to pay your bills they were busy signing players they couldn't afford and paying huge wages to footballers they could not afford. They are guilty of financial doping of the worst kind. It seems to me that HW have consistently supported this financial doping by allowing HMFC to use their facilities despite non-payment of bills.


I would be grateful if you would answer the following questions. I ask them under the terms of the freedom of information Act




How much money do HMFC currently owe to HW ?
When did they last pay any of the bills to you on time ?
What measures have you taken in the last 15 months to recover this debt ?
Have any HW staff been offered and/or accepted any hospitality packages at HMFC in the last 2 years ?
Will you confirm that HMFC will now, not be allowed to use your facilities without payment up front in future ?
Who is the member of HW staff who decided to allow HMFC to continue to use sporting facilities despite non payment of their account ?
Do you allow any other privately owned companies to access your sporting facilities for free ?
By way of balance have you offered your sporting facilities free of charge to any other Professional Football Club ?




For clarity's sake everyone on here should know that a Freedom of Information request must be answered by the body to which it is addressed regardless of where in the world the request comes from. You do not have to give your name or address. A properly submitted request placed by email is sufficient.

While I'm on the subject someone needs to ask the Council's Chief Executive an FOI on which organisations and individuals have contacted the council, its departments and/or any of its offciers to discuss matters in relation to HOMFC. Particularly in relation to debt of any sort but also with regard to facilities, planning and development.

Sylar
26-06-2013, 12:41 PM
400,000 slices :agree:

Geo_1875
26-06-2013, 12:51 PM
Well I categorically believe you then - in fact, all that was missing was the ever-arrogant 'END OF' post to seal the deal.



As per the above posts, HW doesn't have any kind of 'Governor' - perhaps this can chalked up to not knowing terminology of University hierarchies but I would always go into a meeting knowing a bit about the person and his role within a structure - including his title.

I'm also keen to see if you'll provide the name of the person you met with because 2 of the higher ups within the HW University structure are heavily involved with a research project we're jointly involved in and we have access to their calendars from here as a result.

Well I always call him Guv when we meet socially.

Kaiser1962
26-06-2013, 02:32 PM
The same as administration lasting four months, just a bit longer.

Do they keep giving them free rent for the next two years on top of the alleged 15 months they have already had? At what point does it become stupid not to end the arrangement? But I think you knew that. :wink:

Scott Allan Key
26-06-2013, 03:25 PM
I bet those affected down in Galashiels last year will be delighted to hear of the University's charitable view when it comes to dealing with Hertz.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/heriot-watt-staff-facing-huge-cuts.17459320

There was a 'restructuring' at Galashiels college last June. They told me there was an overall cut in expenditure. I'm starting a design course in the Autumn there. Staff lost jobs while other gained new ones. Borders College operates at a loss, and there is always pressure on it to balance its books and money is 'ring-fenced', or so I was told.

While this may not be directly connected to Hearts, what is upsetting is that it appears they have been allowed to get away with something, ordinary users of the college would not. There is one rule for them but not for others. Syrian students from a war-ravaged country I can understand forgiving for the time being, but I can't imagine they will have their debt written off, but an established Scottish private business should have no excuses paying their dues on time.

It does seem, that their may be goodwill extended to Hearts because of their connections to support within the Court at Heriot Watt, if what people on here have said is true, and I have no reason to doubt that. It will actually create considerable ill-will towards HW if they have shown to have favoured one Edinburgh football team and enabled conditions where Hearts have benefited from non-payment when education budget has been cut in Scotland. HW needed to be doing everything to ensure debts were being paid in this climate and it shows irresponsibility and negligence on their part. I don't buy some of the arguments on here about writing off the debt in the short term for long term profit. If I was in court at HW, I would ask for amount owed, £150,000, to be paid over time if necessary, as condition for new lease. If not, kick them out. HW have to be careful and show some partiality in a city with two teams.

jgl07
26-06-2013, 03:59 PM
I suppose I should declare an interest here as I am a Heriot-Watt graduate and was on the staff for 13 years.

Put yourself in the position of the University.

They have a very large sports complex certainly for a medium sized university. This may be down to the fact that they were hoping for a four way merger between Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh College of Art, Moray House College, and the College of Textiles in Galashiels with most of these to be based at Riccarton. This policy collapsed when Edinburgh College of Art (apart from the Department of Town Planning) and Moray House opted to stay in the centre of Edinburgh and went to the University of Edinburgh for validation of their degrees. The loss of Moray House (with a large PE Department) left Riccarton arguably over-provided in sports facilities.

Then along came the Yams offering to rent the sports facilities in the mornings (when bookings would always be light). Assuming they paid £120,000 a year this would be bonus income for the University with next to no outlay. You can see why they would be reluctant to jeopardize this income by throwing them out after a few months of non-payment.

Obviously if they had a queue of prospective tenants it would have made sense to kick the Yams out but this is not the case. Only Hibs, Hearts and Edinburgh Rugby would be in the frame for such facilities and as Hibs have East Mains and Edinburgh Rugby have Murrayfield that means that Hearts are the only show in town. Hence their reluctance to take any action.

It is a similar situation to the Richoh Arena in Coventry. This was built for Coventry City who have paid no rent for over a year. It appears that the stadium owners are likely to give a rent free year to Coventry City for next season. The alternative is for the facility to remain largely unused if Coventry City groundshare with Walsall or Nuneaton.

brog
26-06-2013, 04:24 PM
I suppose I should declare an interest here as I am a Heriot-Watt graduate and was on the staff for 13 years.

Put yourself in the position of the University.

They have a very large sports complex certainly for a medium sized university. This may be down to the fact that they were hoping for a four way merger between Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh College of Art, Moray House College, and the College of Textiles in Galashiels with most of these to be based at Riccarton. This policy collapsed when Edinburgh College of Art (apart from the Department of Town Planning) and Moray House opted to stay in the centre of Edinburgh and went to the University of Edinburgh for validation of their degrees. The loss of Moray House (with a large PE Department) left Riccarton arguably over-provided in sports facilities.

Then along came the Yams offering to rent the sports facilities in the mornings (when bookings would always be light). Assuming they paid £120,000 a year this would be bonus income for the University with next to no outlay. You can see why they would be reluctant to jeopardize this income by throwing them out after a few months of non-payment.

Obviously if they had a queue of prospective tenants it would have made sense to kick the Yams out but this is not the case. Only Hibs, Hearts and Edinburgh Rugby would be in the frame for such facilities and as Hibs have East Mains and Edinburgh Rugby have Murrayfield that means that Hearts are the only show in town. Hence their reluctance to take any action.

It is a similar situation to the Richoh Arena in Coventry. This was built for Coventry City who have paid no rent for over a year. It appears that the stadium owners are likely to give a rent free year to Coventry City for next season. The alternative is for the facility to remain largely unused if Coventry City groundshare with Walsall or Nuneaton.

I can understand the thinking above but what would be the process to make this happen? In any business there would be standard processes in place to pursue late & non payments. I would imagine there would have to be approval at a very high level for the Yams debt to be effectively forgiven. Who could & did provide this authorisation?
Separately, did Riccarton not start out as a joint venture between Yams & HW, which Yams then reneged on? If true you would think HW would not want to be burnt twice!

Ozyhibby
26-06-2013, 04:40 PM
I'm struggling to see the business case for keeping a tenant who is paying £0.
So for more than a year, Heriot Watt has maintained pitches, cleaned dressing rooms, played host to countless visiting youth teams and changed light bulbs (100w if necessary) for free. All on the off chance that maybe they would start paying again. And all the while a steady stream of international football players on salaries that would have covered the rent came and went without anyone mentioning it to Hearts?
Sorry, there is no defence of the universities position here. Someone turned a blind eye because it's Hearts.
That someone has to come clean and be removed from their position.

steakbake
26-06-2013, 04:53 PM
I'm struggling to see the business case for keeping a tenant who is paying £0.
So for more than a year, Heriot Watt has maintained pitches, cleaned dressing rooms, played host to countless visiting youth teams and changed light bulbs (100w if necessary) for free. All on the off chance that maybe they would start paying again. And all the while a steady stream of international football players on salaries that would have covered the rent came and went without anyone mentioning it to Hearts?
Sorry, there is no defence of the universities position here. Someone turned a blind eye because it's Hearts.
That someone has to come clean and be removed from their position.


It's none of our business. It's up to the Uni.

Ozyhibby
26-06-2013, 04:57 PM
It's none of our business. It's up to the Uni.

Really? The Uni receives no tax payers money? I really find that hard to believe. Are you sure?

steakbake
26-06-2013, 05:01 PM
Really? The Uni receives no tax payers money? I really find that hard to believe. Are you sure?

Im not saying that. It does take tax payers money... in addition to overseas fees intake, research funding, commercial spin-off revenue, estates earnings and a whole host of others.

Im just against shrill arguments that we the taxpayer have any right to step in to tell what is or at least should be, an autonomous organisation what they should or shouldn't be doing.

Do you want to go in and tell them how to teach French or Chemistry or Business? Do you want to tell universities what they can and cannot research?

What makes you think that this 150k is "our" money? It's no more ours than it is a research councils, or commercial revenue or fee income.

On this occasion, I'd say that it is #allverycomplex and it's up to Heriot Watt how they manage this debt: as they no doubt do with a whole host of people who default to a similar tune of cash - like overseas governments sometimes do, or spin off companies await funding/revenue streams etc.

So again, it's nothing to do with the general public and folk are only getting excited on here because it's Hearts and one or two others who expect Mike Russell to storm in and sack their finance manager.

Ozyhibby
26-06-2013, 05:09 PM
Im not saying that. It does take tax payers money... in addition to overseas fees intake, research funding, commercial spin-off revenue, estates earnings and a whole host of others.

Im just against shrill arguments that we the taxpayer have any right to step in to tell what is or at least should be, an autonomous organisation what they should or shouldn't be doing.

Autonomy can only be achieved if you are self funded. If not then you are always answerable to whoever pays the piper.
In these tough times, with cuts being made in public funding, perhaps Heriot Watt has too much cash that it can subsidise football teams to the tune of £150k a year.
I'd prefer you offered a proper defence of their position than saying it's not the tax payers business. In other words, just shut up and pay.

CropleyWasGod
26-06-2013, 05:17 PM
I suppose I should declare an interest here as I am a Heriot-Watt graduate and was on the staff for 13 years.

Put yourself in the position of the University.

They have a very large sports complex certainly for a medium sized university. This may be down to the fact that they were hoping for a four way merger between Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh College of Art, Moray House College, and the College of Textiles in Galashiels with most of these to be based at Riccarton. This policy collapsed when Edinburgh College of Art (apart from the Department of Town Planning) and Moray House opted to stay in the centre of Edinburgh and went to the University of Edinburgh for validation of their degrees. The loss of Moray House (with a large PE Department) left Riccarton arguably over-provided in sports facilities.

Then along came the Yams offering to rent the sports facilities in the mornings (when bookings would always be light). Assuming they paid £120,000 a year this would be bonus income for the University with next to no outlay. You can see why they would be reluctant to jeopardize this income by throwing them out after a few months of non-payment.

Obviously if they had a queue of prospective tenants it would have made sense to kick the Yams out but this is not the case. Only Hibs, Hearts and Edinburgh Rugby would be in the frame for such facilities and as Hibs have East Mains and Edinburgh Rugby have Murrayfield that means that Hearts are the only show in town. Hence their reluctance to take any action.

It is a similar situation to the Richoh Arena in Coventry. This was built for Coventry City who have paid no rent for over a year. It appears that the stadium owners are likely to give a rent free year to Coventry City for next season. The alternative is for the facility to remain largely unused if Coventry City groundshare with Walsall or Nuneaton.

Sorry, but I can't accept that argument. Did they test the market? Did they look at other ways of utilising the place?

It costs HWU money to keep the place going. If there were genuinely no tenants, it would have been in their interests to close the place. No income, but substantially less overhead.

If it's true, and at the moment we only have the DR's word for that, it is another example of a semi-public body being exposed in its lack of commercial ability.

Beefster
26-06-2013, 05:18 PM
I think Bryan Jackson has said that he wants to start paying HWU again pretty soon (presumably after renegotiating the contract).

No guarantees of future income but a higher probability of getting some.


Do they keep giving them free rent for the next two years on top of the alleged 15 months they have already had? At what point does it become stupid not to end the arrangement? But I think you knew that. :wink:

Sorry, for being facetious. The 'Daily Mail' syndrome of thinking an institution is completely accountable to us all because it receives some state funding running through this thread does that to me. It's the same with the BBC. It wasn't you!

As I posted earlier, I think that the administrators have intimated that they want to start paying HWU for using the training facilities. From a long-term viewpoint, I think HWU are doing exactly the right thing for the institution.


Im not saying that. It does take tax payers money... in addition to overseas fees intake, research funding, commercial spin-off revenue, estates earnings and a whole host of others.

Im just against shrill arguments that we the taxpayer have any right to step in to tell what is or at least should be, an autonomous organisation what they should or shouldn't be doing.

Do you want to go in and tell them how to teach French or Chemistry or Business? Do you want to tell universities what they can and cannot research?

What makes you think that this 150k is "our" money? It's no more ours than it is a research councils, or commercial revenue or fee income.

On this occasion, I'd say that it is #allverycomplex and it's up to Heriot Watt how they manage this debt: as they no doubt do with a whole host of people who default to a similar tune of cash - like overseas governments sometimes do, or spin off companies await funding/revenue streams etc.

So again, it's nothing to do with the general public and folk are only getting excited on here because it's Hearts and one or two others who expect Mike Russell to storm in and sack their finance manager.

Agree entirely. Badgering HWU with FOI requests and demanding sackings will do no good to anyone and will only make us look no better than Celtic fans last summer.

steakbake
26-06-2013, 05:19 PM
Autonomy can only be achieved if you are self funded. If not then you are always answerable to whoever pays the piper.
In these tough times, with cuts being made in public funding, perhaps Heriot Watt has too much cash that it can subsidise football teams to the tune of £150k a year.
I'd prefer you offered a proper defence of their position than saying it's not the tax payers business. In other words, just shut up and pay.


I think I did offer some kind of insight that Universities do turn over a large amount of cash from multiple streams of revenue. They also receive public funding in addition to that.

Anyway, I'll let you get on with the indignant letter writing campaign. Don't forget to take your pitch fork and flaming torch if there's a public meeting about it...

CropleyWasGod
26-06-2013, 05:21 PM
Im not saying that. It does take tax payers money... in addition to overseas fees intake, research funding, commercial spin-off revenue, estates earnings and a whole host of others.

Im just against shrill arguments that we the taxpayer have any right to step in to tell what is or at least should be, an autonomous organisation what they should or shouldn't be doing.

Do you want to go in and tell them how to teach French or Chemistry or Business? Do you want to tell universities what they can and cannot research?

What makes you think that this 150k is "our" money? It's no more ours than it is a research councils, or commercial revenue or fee income.

On this occasion, I'd say that it is #allverycomplex and it's up to Heriot Watt how they manage this debt: as they no doubt do with a whole host of people who default to a similar tune of cash - like overseas governments sometimes do, or spin off companies await funding/revenue streams etc.

So again, it's nothing to do with the general public and folk are only getting excited on here because it's Hearts and one or two others who expect Mike Russell to storm in and sack their finance manager.

I disagree.

If (with the caveats I mention above) it's true, it does raise questions about the financial governance of the University. Was this an isolated case, or is their commercial skill lacking? If it's the latter, how much of public money is being wasted in the same way? The sports facility may or may not be publicly-funded (is it?), but much of HWU is.

PS I'm on a rant because I'm embarrassed that it's my old place. :greengrin

GREEN WARLORD
26-06-2013, 05:34 PM
Have just done an FOI request. Also done one to the council asking about safety certifcates for Tynecastle.

Will post replies if, and when i get them.

I can confirm that HWU have received your FOI request, approx 10 questions :agree:

steakbake
26-06-2013, 05:44 PM
I disagree.

If (with the caveats I mention above) it's true, it does raise questions about the financial governance of the University. Was this an isolated case, or is their commercial skill lacking? If it's the latter, how much of public money is being wasted in the same way? The sports facility may or may not be publicly-funded (is it?), but much of HWU is.

PS I'm on a rant because I'm embarrassed that it's my old place. :greengrin

Ah well, in that case, I'll let you get on with it! ;-)

I think Uni's - larger ones anyway - do have pretty stringent processes in place to manage risk and manage debts. I've worked at 3 HEIs and in the most recent, have seen various debts offset against income pending anticipated payment.

Would rather not name names but in one case, an overseas government took over a year to make good it's payments for a cohort of students to the tune of just over a million. The money did arrive - with interest. However, that particular institution was not that worried because they fully expected payment in due course and crucially, had decent enough income streams from a variety of activities that the amount although very significant - was not a huge sum of money in the larger balance sheet.

I suspect HW have a similar view - it's roughly the equivalent of 10 non-EU students defaulting on their fees or a medium sized seed funding amount for a spin off company being delayed. 150k is of course to an individual, a huge sum of cash but to a large organisation, it's not in itself, going to make the difference in a day-to-day sense.

easty
26-06-2013, 05:57 PM
Well off topic. I work at Edinburgh Uni and, yesterday morning, was dealing with a Prof who'd had a problem getting an expenses claim paid (and he wasn't happy about it in the slightest). At lunchtime I bumped into him in Sainsbury's as he was getting lunch, so I asked "do you need me to lend you a few pounds to get that?"......he absolutely didn't see the funny side....his post-doc did though. :greengrin

mixumatosis
26-06-2013, 06:02 PM
Autonomy can only be achieved if you are self funded. If not then you are always answerable to whoever pays the piper.
In these tough times, with cuts being made in public funding, perhaps Heriot Watt has too much cash that it can subsidise football teams to the tune of £150k a year.
I'd prefer you offered a proper defence of their position than saying it's not the tax payers business. In other words, just shut up and pay.

Universities routinely sell hoodies to their students with the institution's name on it. Do you want them to be accountable to you as to how they spend the revenue they gather from these sales ?

There used to be (and for all I know still is) a Bank of Scotland branch on campus at Stirling Uni. Do you imagine you'd get far with an FOI request which asked Stirling Uni for information about BoS account holders ? Why not ? It's a commercial arrangement between Stirling Uni and BoS, for which Stirling (presumably) receive rental income in exactly the same way HWU are in a commercial arrangement with Hearts. For that matter, BoS are part owned by the taxpayer. With that level of public money involved an FOI request ought to be able to get you my current account balance by your logic.

You need to realise that Uni's & colleges receive both public money and commercial revenue. The public funding they receive is in direct proportion to the number of eligible students they have in attendance. They are then audited to ensure that money has been correctly dispersed.

Unless you can demonstrate that public money has been mis-appropriated then HWU are not answerable to you or anyone else on this forum. If they are spectacularly good at raising commercial revenue and spectacularly bad at managing it then that, i'm afraid, is none of your business.

I will also declare an interest and say that I too work in this field. More than one person who does has now told you there isn't a case to answer here. You would maybe do well to accept that.

Keith_M
26-06-2013, 06:17 PM
I don't mind having a laugh at Hearts inability to pay their bills and highlighting this to all and Sundry on here but I think it's pretty pathetic to be sending FOI requests to these various bodies.

The story, along with others, is now in the public domain. Hearts are now in liquidation. Does anyone REALLY need to take it any further?


Signed, indignant Daily Mail Reader, Potters Bar.

Kaiser1962
26-06-2013, 06:17 PM
Sorry, for being facetious. The 'Daily Mail' syndrome of thinking an institution is completely accountable to us all because it receives some state funding running through this thread does that to me. It's the same with the BBC. It wasn't you!

As I posted earlier, I think that the administrators have intimated that they want to start paying HWU for using the training facilities. From a long-term viewpoint, I think HWU are doing exactly the right thing for the institution.


I think the main irony was that HWU purports to teach business management and practice and allows a customer to run up (allegedly) 15 months of unpaid arrears whilst allowing it to continue unabated on the offchance they may pay something in the future. Its hardly ideal and my point was really that, having let it run for 15 months, at what point do you pull the plug?

I cant think of many companies that could afford, even if they were to allow, such an arragement to continue.

CropleyWasGod
26-06-2013, 06:21 PM
I don't mind having a laugh at Hearts inability to pay their bills and highlighting this to all and Sundry on here but I think it's pretty pathetic to be sending FOI requests to these various bodies.

The story, along with others, is now in the public domain. Hearts are now in liquidation. Does anyone REALLY need to take it any further?


Signed, indignant Daily Mail Reader, Potters Bar.

Not yet. :greengrin

Sylar
26-06-2013, 06:28 PM
Not yet. :greengrin

Phew - I thought I'd missed a monster story there for a second! :greengrin

steakbake
26-06-2013, 06:30 PM
Phew - I thought I'd missed a monster story there for a second! :greengrin

Yep, that had my hopes up too!

Kaiser1962
26-06-2013, 06:31 PM
I can understand the thinking above but what would be the process to make this happen? In any business there would be standard processes in place to pursue late & non payments. I would imagine there would have to be approval at a very high level for the Yams debt to be effectively forgiven. Who could & did provide this authorisation?
Separately, did Riccarton not start out as a joint venture between Yams & HW, which Yams then reneged on? If true you would think HW would not want to be burnt twice!

I recollect the facility was opened in spring 2004 and the breakdown of costs was HWU £3.2m, HMFC £2.3m and £1m lottery funding from Sportscotland.

The yams did not, despite many promises, cough, and Romanov took over Hearts the next year. Hearts renegotiated and a compromise of a 25 year lease at £120k pa was reached.

RoslinInstHibby
26-06-2013, 06:43 PM
I can confirm that HWU have received your FOI request, approx 10 questions :agree:

If u work at the uni.....PM me

josef k
26-06-2013, 06:48 PM
I don't mind having a laugh at Hearts inability to pay their bills and highlighting this to all and Sundry on here but I think it's pretty pathetic to be sending FOI requests to these various bodies.

The story, along with others, is now in the public domain. Hearts are now in liquidation. Does anyone REALLY need to take it any further?


Signed, indignant Daily Mail Reader, Potters Bar.

Sorry, don't agree. Scottish football journalists were shown throughout the Sevco situation to be at best copying and pasting PR guff from institutions they were far to close to. The activities of bloggers (etc) were crucial in exposing issues and making sure things weren't swept under the carpet. If it wasn't for a Hibs fan putting an FOI request the fact that the council were letting Hearts build up a large council tax debt would not have been exposed. The council (another example being stadium plans) clearly have a number of individuals who are happy to bend the rules for them.

As for why continue - Hearts fans and bidders are planning to bounce out of admin in a few weeks having paid their creditors (council, police, HMRC, HW, small businesses) next to nothing and with just the 15 point penalty. They then start spending again. Does that not bother you?

Liquidation is to good for them! :thumbsup:

Saorsa
26-06-2013, 06:54 PM
Sorry, don't agree. Scottish football journalists were shown throughout the Sevco situation to be at best copying and pasting PR guff from institutions they were far to close to. The activities of bloggers (etc) were crucial in exposing issues and making sure things weren't swept under the carpet. If it wasn't for a Hibs fan putting an FOI request the fact that the council were letting Hearts build up a large council tax debt would not have been exposed. The council (another example being stadium plans) clearly have a number of individuals who are happy to bend the rules for them.

As for why continue - Hearts fans and bidders are planning to bounce out of admin in a few weeks having paid their creditors (council, police, HMRC, HW, small businesses) next to nothing and with just the 15 point penalty. They then start spending again. Does that not bother you?

Liquidation is to good for them! :thumbsup::agree: The pressure must be kept on, everybody and everything dodgy must be dug up and exposed, nothing must be allowed tae be swept under the carpet, nae stone should be left unturned. They were happy tae have the success that stealing other peoples money brought, now they must pay the piper. They must not be allowed tae get away with what they have done.

RyeSloan
26-06-2013, 07:38 PM
If it's valid to write in Scots, why's it not valid to use Scots words when writing in English, particularly for the purpose of emphasis? It's irrelevant whether the word has more characters in one or the other version.

We mix French words into our English all the time, as do they with English words.

I get your ongoing point that there's probably nothing to hide, and it's nothing to do with us; but yer argument wiz rank.

Who was the old regular poster on here that used to write all his posts in Scots (or his particular version of it!)? Not seen him on here for years though.

Saorsa
26-06-2013, 07:40 PM
Who was the old regular poster on here that used to write all his posts in Scots (or his particular version of it!)? Not seen him on here for years though.greenandglaikit

21.05.2016
26-06-2013, 07:48 PM
:agree: The pressure must be kept on, everybody and everything dodgy must be dug up and exposed, nothing must be allowed tae be swept under the carpet, nae stone should be left unturned. They were happy tae have the success that stealing other peoples money brought, now they must pay the piper. They must not be allowed tae get away with what they have done.

:top marks

Kato
26-06-2013, 07:54 PM
I suppose I should declare an interest here as I am a Heriot-Watt graduate and was on the staff for 13 years.

Put yourself in the position of the University.

They have a very large sports complex certainly for a medium sized university. This may be down to the fact that they were hoping for a four way merger between Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh College of Art, Moray House College, and the College of Textiles in Galashiels with most of these to be based at Riccarton. This policy collapsed when Edinburgh College of Art (apart from the Department of Town Planning) and Moray House opted to stay in the centre of Edinburgh and went to the University of Edinburgh for validation of their degrees. The loss of Moray House (with a large PE Department) left Riccarton arguably over-provided in sports facilities.

Then along came the Yams offering to rent the sports facilities in the mornings (when bookings would always be light). Assuming they paid £120,000 a year this would be bonus income for the University with next to no outlay. You can see why they would be reluctant to jeopardize this income by throwing them out after a few months of non-payment.

Obviously if they had a queue of prospective tenants it would have made sense to kick the Yams out but this is not the case. Only Hibs, Hearts and Edinburgh Rugby would be in the frame for such facilities and as Hibs have East Mains and Edinburgh Rugby have Murrayfield that means that Hearts are the only show in town. Hence their reluctance to take any action.

It is a similar situation to the Richoh Arena in Coventry. This was built for Coventry City who have paid no rent for over a year. It appears that the stadium owners are likely to give a rent free year to Coventry City for next season. The alternative is for the facility to remain largely unused if Coventry City groundshare with Walsall or Nuneaton.


A wee point of order on the bold bit above. Hearts didn't just pop along and offer to rent the facilities. Hearts and Heriot-Watt were in a partnership to co-build the facilities, each were supposed to pay 50/50 to construct them (with SMG in the mix somewhere iirc). Hearts under the pieman, still being financially doped on the pitch, reneged on the deal at the last minute leaving Heriot-Watt to build the facilities themselves, just like they've reneged on taxes, policing fees, council tax, player's wages, etc etc etc.

I found it pretty kind of Heriot-Watt to then enter the subsequent rental deal with them. Whatever the ins and outs as someone else said above I bet there is lots of hospitality going the way of HWU's high heid yins, whilst rent for the facilities goes a-begging.

brog
26-06-2013, 08:01 PM
My goodness, some of you further education chappies are a tad sensitive! :wink: I have some sympathy with the perspective that this is HW business though, as I posted earlier I would be intrigued to know the process by which (if true) Yams have not been charged for 15 months. Was it authorised in a proper & transparent manner, was it approved by one person only without wider knowledge, is there a possibility of fraud/conflict of interest?
Regardless of the above i do think we have a legitimate gripe & a right to know from the other side of things, ie as Hibs fans. Yams are our peers & rivals playing in the same league & (supposedly) under the same set of rules. It's only a week or 2 ago that Yams were boasting of being self sufficient, we know now they were not. It may be that in order to get accurate detail re Yams financial status we have to get some info from 3rd parties such as HW. This is not unusual regardless of whether the 3rd party is a public or private institution. I'm afraid, if you get into bed with the devil there may be unfortunate consequences.

Ozyhibby
26-06-2013, 08:01 PM
Universities routinely sell hoodies to their students with the institution's name on it. Do you want them to be accountable to you as to how they spend the revenue they gather from these sales ?

There used to be (and for all I know still is) a Bank of Scotland branch on campus at Stirling Uni. Do you imagine you'd get far with an FOI request which asked Stirling Uni for information about BoS account holders ? Why not ? It's a commercial arrangement between Stirling Uni and BoS, for which Stirling (presumably) receive rental income in exactly the same way HWU are in a commercial arrangement with Hearts. For that matter, BoS are part owned by the taxpayer. With that level of public money involved an FOI request ought to be able to get you my current account balance by your logic.

You need to realise that Uni's & colleges receive both public money and commercial revenue. The public funding they receive is in direct proportion to the number of eligible students they have in attendance. They are then audited to ensure that money has been correctly dispersed.

Unless you can demonstrate that public money has been mis-appropriated then HWU are not answerable to you or anyone else on this forum. If they are spectacularly good at raising commercial revenue and spectacularly bad at managing it then that, i'm afraid, is none of your business.

I will also declare an interest and say that I too work in this field. More than one person who does has now told you there isn't a case to answer here. You would maybe do well to accept that.

Your comparison with BoS is way of the mark. As a taxpayer I would be entitled to ask if the relationship with BoS is profitable or not but not about individual account details held by BoS.
I am entitled to ask if the relationship with Hearts is profitable or not but not what Hearts are paying individual players.
I'm entitled to ask if it's worthwhile (profitable) selling hoodies but not how much the unit cost of each hoody is with their supplier.
When you start asking for public money each and every part of your business could and should be open to public scrutiny.
You say that unless I can demonstrate that public money has been misappropriated then it's none of my business. How can I demonstrate anything unless the reasons for any loss making commercial arrangements are made public?

mixumatosis
26-06-2013, 08:03 PM
Who was the old regular poster on here that used to write all his posts in Scots (or his particular version of it!)? Not seen him on here for years though.

Bad Martini maybe ? Funnily enough, always enjoyed his posts.

I Find it tiresome when language is contrived, whether that's someone saying "I wish to purchase a frozen cream and milk delicacy" instead of "I fancy an ice cream" or "Ah dinnae ken whit it is yer bletherin aboot" instead of just saying "I don't understand".

None of which changes the fact that HWU have done nothing wrong...

Saorsa
26-06-2013, 08:05 PM
Bad Martini maybe ? Funnily enough, always enjoyed his posts.

I Find it tiresome when language is contrived, whether that's someone saying "I wish to purchase a frozen cream and milk delicacy" instead of "I fancy an ice cream" or "Ah dinnae ken whit it is yer bletherin aboot" instead of just saying "I don't understand".

None of which changes the fact that HWU have done nothing wrong...Use the ignore list then, as I said in my previous post that was deleted I dinnae give a flyin' one what you think.

Purple & Green
26-06-2013, 08:11 PM
A wee point of order on the bold bit above. Hearts didn't just pop along and offer to rent the facilities. Hearts and Heriot-Watt were in a partnership to co-build the facilities, each were supposed to pay 50/50 to construct them (with SMG in the mix somewhere iirc). Hearts under the pieman, still being financially doped on the pitch, reneged on the deal at the last minute leaving Heriot-Watt to build the facilities themselves, just like they've reneged on taxes, policing fees, council tax, player's wages, etc etc etc.

I found it pretty kind of Heriot-Watt to then enter the subsequent rental deal with them. Whatever the ins and outs as someone else said above I bet there is lots of hospitality going the way of HWU's high heid yins, whilst rent for the facilities goes a-begging.

When I was growing up, I thought that Scotland was upstanding and honest, whilst the communist block and the third world were rotten and corrupt.

I think that these countries laugh at us now.

FranckSuzy
26-06-2013, 08:22 PM
Bad Martini maybe ? Funnily enough, always enjoyed his posts.

I Find it tiresome when language is contrived, whether that's someone saying "I wish to purchase a frozen cream and milk delicacy" instead of "I fancy an ice cream" or "Ah dinnae ken whit it is yer bletherin aboot" instead of just saying "I don't understand".

None of which changes the fact that HWU have done nothing wrong...

Which is your opinion. However, that does not give you the right, in my opinion, to slag off other people and how they choose to communicate.

mixumatosis
26-06-2013, 08:26 PM
Use the ignore list then, as I said in my previous post that was deleted I dinnae give a flyin' one what you think.

I wasn't replying to you. The ignore list is a facility that is as available to you as it is to me. You seem to be more interested in keeping this going rather than wrapping it up though.

None of which changes the fact that HWU have done nothing wrong.

Kato
26-06-2013, 08:26 PM
When I was growing up, I thought that Scotland was upstanding and honest, whilst the communist block and the third world were rotten and corrupt.

I think that these countries laugh at us now.


I envy you that you had that small window of naivety.

Edinburgh is a European Capital city but it's establishment has a mentality somewhere between 17th Century Salem and Stpnybridge - obsessed with tut-tutting and wearing blazers. Cheating and twisting to allow the establishment club to thrive is all too predictable of their narrow mindedness. So petty it's pathetic. Keep in mind Lochend Butterfly, Hunter's Hall, how safety certificates were threatened with being withdrawn from the old stand at ER, etc etc etc.

Kaiser1962
26-06-2013, 08:27 PM
Use the ignore list then, as I said in my previous post that was deleted I dinnae give a flyin' one what you think.

Ma post, aboot yer post, wis deleted anaw :greengrin

Saorsa
26-06-2013, 08:27 PM
Which is your opinion. However, that does not give you the right, in my opinion, to slag off other people and how they choose to communicate.Dinnae worry yersel about me hen :greengrin

just another bore :yawn:

lyonhibs
26-06-2013, 08:34 PM
Bad Martini maybe ? Funnily enough, always enjoyed his posts.

I Find it tiresome when language is contrived, whether that's someone saying "I wish to purchase a frozen cream and milk delicacy" instead of "I fancy an ice cream" or "Ah dinnae ken whit it is yer bletherin aboot" instead of just saying "I don't understand".

None of which changes the fact that HWU have done nothing wrong...

Wait, if this is Desperate Dan we are talking about, are you saying the thing that annoys you about him is his usage of the word "tae" all the time.

Try harder, dear chap, I'm sure there must be something more irritating in his 20,000 odd posts :greengrin

Mostly non-plussed about this HWU thing to be honest. Has anyone lost their job at HWU/have new hospital wards not been getting built because Hertz have shied out of paying 10k a month to an institution with various other revenue streams?

I think not.

It's the smaller SME style creditors for whom HoMFC could well be their major account that I feel for.

Ugly, shambolic and pish stained. And that's just their latest janitor.

FranckSuzy
26-06-2013, 08:43 PM
Dinnae worry yersel about me hen :greengrin

just another bore :yawn:

Och, it's just a stooshie aboot nowt. Radges, the lot o' thim :agree:

Ozyhibby
26-06-2013, 08:49 PM
Mostly non-plussed about this HWU thing to be honest. Has anyone lost their job at HWU/have new hospital wards not been getting built because Hertz have shied out of paying 10k a month to an institution with various other revenue streams?

I think not.


People are losing their jobs across all parts of the public sector including in Heriot Watt and £150k keeps about three lecturers on for another year.
This, the budget is huge so £150k is nothing attitude is common in the public sector and is the reason why public spending is so out of control.

clerriehibs
26-06-2013, 08:56 PM
Bad Martini maybe ? Funnily enough, always enjoyed his posts.

I Find it tiresome when language is contrived, whether that's someone saying "I wish to purchase a frozen cream and milk delicacy" instead of "I fancy an ice cream" or "Ah dinnae ken whit it is yer bletherin aboot" instead of just saying "I don't understand".

None of which changes the fact that HWU have done nothing wrong...

Your 2nd example;the former adds colour and verve, the latter is one dimensional. I know which I prefer.

Andy74
26-06-2013, 09:04 PM
People are losing their jobs across all parts of the public sector including in Heriot Watt and £150k keeps about three lecturers on for another year.
This, the budget is huge so £150k is nothing attitude is common in the public sector and is the reason why public spending is so out of control.

Would they have got the £150 k elsewhere though? If Hearts get sold on, get back to paying the rent, then it probably makes sense for them to have been patient on this one.

Bishop Hibee
26-06-2013, 09:16 PM
People are losing their jobs across all parts of the public sector including in Heriot Watt and £150k keeps about three lecturers on for another year.
This, the budget is huge so £150k is nothing attitude is common in the public sector and is the reason why public spending is so out of control.

£150K is what the trough dwellers at RBS called chump change before the recession. What you highlight is a problem for all unwieldy bureaucratic organisations. It doesn't make the decision of Heriot Watt to continue to let Hertz use the facility free of charge the right one though. I'm skint but I doubt I'd get to book a pitch for nothing.

sidneyhibbie
26-06-2013, 09:17 PM
Rent is due on 1st of month so the 160k mark is very close, i have E Mailed my complaint to HWU We need to keep the pressure on them its a disgrace.

Dashing Bob S
26-06-2013, 09:23 PM
They don't pay for their (rental) of training ground, their council taxes, their small creditors, the police of their taxes.

I used to want them to survive, albeit hamstrung and as permanent whipping boys.

Now I believe that Scotland would be better off without these embarrassing poncing paedos, who don't have an ounce of decency or personal pride.


Pull the plug!

cocopops1875
26-06-2013, 09:50 PM
Rent is due on 1st of month so the 160k mark is very close, i have E Mailed my complaint to HWU We need to keep the pressure on them its a disgrace.

Why didn't you just complain during your meeting with "The Governer" ?

worcesterhibby
26-06-2013, 10:42 PM
Universities routinely sell hoodies to their students with the institution's name on it. Do you want them to be accountable to you as to how they spend the revenue they gather from these sales ?

There used to be (and for all I know still is) a Bank of Scotland branch on campus at Stirling Uni. Do you imagine you'd get far with an FOI request which asked Stirling Uni for information about BoS account holders ? Why not ? It's a commercial arrangement between Stirling Uni and BoS, for which Stirling (presumably) receive rental income in exactly the same way HWU are in a commercial arrangement with Hearts. For that matter, BoS are part owned by the taxpayer. With that level of public money involved an FOI request ought to be able to get you my current account balance by your logic.

You need to realise that Uni's & colleges receive both public money and commercial revenue. The public funding they receive is in direct proportion to the number of eligible students they have in attendance. They are then audited to ensure that money has been correctly dispersed.

Unless you can demonstrate that public money has been mis-appropriated then HWU are not answerable to you or anyone else on this forum. If they are spectacularly good at raising commercial revenue and spectacularly bad at managing it then that, i'm afraid, is none of your business.

I will also declare an interest and say that I too work in this field. More than one person who does has now told you there isn't a case to answer here. You would maybe do well to accept that.

I'm happy to say that you are wrong. Under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 a citizen of the United Kingdom has the right to submit a freedom of information request to a university receiving financial support under section 65 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992. By receiving public funding they agree to open all their revenue streams up to public scrutiny if requested.

Of course it would be stupid to suggest that this FOI request could obtain the names and details of bank accounts held by people at a bank which has a branch on site. But since that is not the question that is being asked it's not a problem. The question being asked is why a private company has not been taken to task over the non-payment of bills for the use of a facility that is part funded by the public purse and why they have been allowed to continue to use the facilities for well over a year without making any significant effort to make payments.

jgl07
26-06-2013, 10:53 PM
A wee point of order on the bold bit above. Hearts didn't just pop along and offer to rent the facilities. Hearts and Heriot-Watt were in a partnership to co-build the facilities, each were supposed to pay 50/50 to construct them (with SMG in the mix somewhere iirc). Hearts under the pieman, still being financially doped on the pitch, reneged on the deal at the last minute leaving Heriot-Watt to build the facilities themselves, just like they've reneged on taxes, policing fees, council tax, player's wages, etc etc etc.

I found it pretty kind of Heriot-Watt to then enter the subsequent rental deal with them. Whatever the ins and outs as someone else said above I bet there is lots of hospitality going the way of HWU's high heid yins, whilst rent for the facilities goes a-begging.

I recall it now. It was after the injection of cash into Hearts by SMG around the time when Hibs were relegated. Hearts were supposed to be investing large sums in a training centre. I wondered how the whole thing metamorphosed into a rental deal. Hearts seem to have spent the money on crap players from England like Fitzroy Simpson and built a team that Hibs took apart 3-0 at Tynecastle.

Many on this thread seem to be treating Heriot-Watt as the bad guys. Heriot-Watt are the victims like a load of small firms in the area, players landladies, City of Edinburgh Council, Lothian Police, etc. plus HMRC.

Those guilty along with Romanov and his criminal gang are those who allowed Hearts to carry on despite the fact that they have been technically insolvent for some years. This includes the supine press who believed the crap about 'Hearts cutting costs' or Hearts are self-sufficient' and reprinted press releases without any critical comment.

It also includes the auditors who admitted that the only reason they were signing off the accounts was that UBIG had promised financial support despite the fact that there was no evidence that UBIG had the means. This was done on more than one occasion. Then when Romanov declared that no further support was forthcoming from UBIG (and it was clear that they hadn't a bean) they only went and signed the accounts off again. This time without any qualification! This kept the Hearts' roadshow going for at least a year longer than it should have.

I am sure that Cropley will come riding to the defence of the Auditors but I am not buying it.

RyeSloan
27-06-2013, 12:47 AM
greenandglaikit

Cheers that's the one!!....had a great way of putting things did auld glaikit

The Falcon
27-06-2013, 06:39 AM
Would they have got the £150 k elsewhere though? If Hearts get sold on, get back to paying the rent, then it probably makes sense for them to have been patient on this one.

This is unknown but they may have gotten half that or two thirds elsewhere. They didnt try.

My gripe is that Hearts are only paying rent because they reneged on their part of the deal to pay, I seen on here, over £2m towards the project leaving HW to pay it as the facility was already built. Then, it would appear, HW enter a rental scheme so that Hearts can still use it and Hearts have stitched them up for that and it seems that Hearts have been using it for free since January 2012. As others have said there will be costs to be met when Hearts are using it so that cost is also being met by HW.

I've worked for some big companies and cant imagine that this would have gone any longer than six months at the absolute limit.

Fool me once shame on you.......etc

WindyMiller
27-06-2013, 07:04 AM
http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/page/AcademyTour/0,,10289,00.html

http://www.hydc.co.uk/academy_top.html

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20040629/youth-academy-is-officially-opened_2241508_535835

Seems Hertz got a good deal out of this.
You can't blame people for believing that Hertz owned this, as they weren't shy in promoting the "Hearts Academy".

CropleyWasGod
27-06-2013, 07:07 AM
I recall it now. It was after the injection of cash into Hearts by SMG around the time when Hibs were relegated. Hearts were supposed to be investing large sums in a training centre. I wondered how the whole thing metamorphosed into a rental deal. Hearts seem to have spent the money on crap players from England like Fitzroy Simpson and built a team that Hibs took apart 3-0 at Tynecastle.

Many on this thread seem to be treating Heriot-Watt as the bad guys. Heriot-Watt are the victims like a load of small firms in the area, players landladies, City of Edinburgh Council, Lothian Police, etc. plus HMRC.

Those guilty along with Romanov and his criminal gang are those who allowed Hearts to carry on despite the fact that they have been technically insolvent for some years. This includes the supine press who believed the crap about 'Hearts cutting costs' or Hearts are self-sufficient' and reprinted press releases without any critical comment.

It also includes the auditors who admitted that the only reason they were signing off the accounts was that UBIG had promised financial support despite the fact that there was no evidence that UBIG had the means. This was done on more than one occasion. Then when Romanov declared that no further support was forthcoming from UBIG (and it was clear that they hadn't a bean) they only went and signed the accounts off again. This time without any qualification! This kept the Hearts' roadshow going for at least a year longer than it should have.

I am sure that Cropley will come riding to the defence of the Auditors but I am not buying it.

I am neither going to defend or attack the auditors. I am not party to the information they had which enabled them to reach their decisions, and neither is anyone else outside of that firm.

brog
27-06-2013, 07:21 AM
Bad Martini maybe ? Funnily enough, always enjoyed his posts.

I Find it tiresome when language is contrived, whether that's someone saying "I wish to purchase a frozen cream and milk delicacy" instead of "I fancy an ice cream" or "Ah dinnae ken whit it is yer bletherin aboot" instead of just saying "I don't understand".

None of which changes the fact that HWU have done nothing wrong...

Unless you're conversant with the process under which HW failed to pursue a 3rd party for a significant debt, you cannot make that final statement above, even though you use the word FACT! :wink: Similarly I cannot say there was any wrongdoing which is why we require transparency over what seems very unusual circumstances, particularly in a time of austerity.

Beefster
27-06-2013, 07:24 AM
Your comparison with BoS is way of the mark. As a taxpayer I would be entitled to ask if the relationship with BoS is profitable or not but not about individual account details held by BoS.
I am entitled to ask if the relationship with Hearts is profitable or not but not what Hearts are paying individual players.
I'm entitled to ask if it's worthwhile (profitable) selling hoodies but not how much the unit cost of each hoody is with their supplier.
When you start asking for public money each and every part of your business could and should be open to public scrutiny.
You say that unless I can demonstrate that public money has been misappropriated then it's none of my business. How can I demonstrate anything unless the reasons for any loss making commercial arrangements are made public?

Are HWU asking for public money or being paid by the state for providing a service (i.e. educating the state's citizens)?


Would they have got the £150 k elsewhere though? If Hearts get sold on, get back to paying the rent, then it probably makes sense for them to have been patient on this one.

Yup.

WindyMiller
27-06-2013, 07:30 AM
When Hertz reneged on the original deal, who put up the shortfall?

Pedantic_Hibee
27-06-2013, 07:34 AM
To Hearts, "cutting costs" simply means just not paying people.

YehButNoBut
27-06-2013, 08:12 AM
I believe they are due to start training today, will they have the brass neck to turn up at HWU playing fields as if everything is fine.

Knowing them the answer is undoubtedly yes.

cocopops1875
27-06-2013, 08:18 AM
I believe they are due to start training today, will they have the brass neck to turn up at HWU playing fields as if everything is fine.

Knowing them the answer is undoubtedly yes.

Hardly brass neck when BDO have arranged it

lapsedhibee
27-06-2013, 12:17 PM
I am neither going to defend or attack the auditors. I am not party to the information they had which enabled them to reach their decisions, and neither is anyone else outside of that firm.

But then you just went ahead and did!

CropleyWasGod
27-06-2013, 12:20 PM
But then you just went ahead and did!

No I didn't.

Had I access to the information they have, I might come to a different conclusion from theirs; I might come to the same one. At the moment, I can have no informed opinion on their work. I can only surmise and speculate, the same way as we are all doing.

lapsedhibee
27-06-2013, 12:27 PM
No I didn't.

Had I access to the information they have, I might come to a different conclusion from theirs; I might come to the same one. At the moment, I can have no informed opinion on their work. I can only surmise and speculate, the same way as we are all doing.

Hearts have been a basket case for years. Imo, you are effectively saying "there might have been something the auditors saw which no-one else could, which enabled them to allow Hearts to continue so long". There might have been, there might not have been. For you to state there might have been is to adopt a defensive position, as you always do when the competence of financial professionals is called into question, imo.

CropleyWasGod
27-06-2013, 12:36 PM
Hearts have been a basket case for years. Imo, you are effectively saying "there might have been something the auditors saw which no-one else could, which enabled them to allow Hearts to continue so long". There might have been, there might not have been. For you to state there might have been is to adopt a defensive position, as you always do when the competence of financial professionals is called into question, imo.

I don't agree.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not trying to defend the auditors here, and if my words have let me down, then that much should be made clear. I was surprised at their most recent audit report; I could understand how they might have arrived at the earlier ones, but not this one.

However, what I am trying to do here is explain that they, like all professional advisers, MAY have access to information that is not in the public domain, but which is crucial. If I am defending anything, it's that fact, not JC's conduct.

If trying to explain how things actually operate in these processes is classed as defensive, then that is what I am. I would, though, define it as, hopefully, informative.

GreenCastle
27-06-2013, 12:37 PM
Looks like they were back at HWU today :rolleyes:

http://www.snspix.com/8702433/print/8702433.html

lapsedhibee
27-06-2013, 01:08 PM
I don't agree.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not trying to defend the auditors here, and if my words have let me down, then that much should be made clear. I was surprised at their most recent audit report; I could understand how they might have arrived at the earlier ones, but not this one.

However, what I am trying to do here is explain that they, like all professional advisers, MAY have access to information that is not in the public domain, but which is crucial. If I am defending anything, it's that fact, not JC's conduct.

If JC have screwed up here, they deserve pilloried. Have they, though?

To the untrained eye the simplest explanation for JC's audit reports would be that they were getting paid (or promised) over the odds. Exactly the same way that players were so happy to be employed by a basket case. Think it's complicating things unnecessarily to introduce the possibility of some mysterious information that only JC knew about.

Bribed to lie? I don't suppose so - but that's only one end of a continuum on which "keep the customer satisfied by saying as much of what he wants to hear as we can professionally get away with" also features!

CropleyWasGod
27-06-2013, 01:59 PM
To the untrained eye the simplest explanation for JC's audit reports would be that they were getting paid (or promised) over the odds. Exactly the same way that players were so happy to be employed by a basket case. Think it's complicating things unnecessarily to introduce the possibility of some mysterious information that only JC knew about.

Bribed to lie? I don't suppose so - but that's only one end of a continuum on which "keep the customer satisfied by saying as much of what he wants to hear as we can professionally get away with" also features!

I'm not saying it's mysterious. Far from it.

In the earlier years, they came to their opinion based on UBIG's apparent continued support of HMFC. That would have been evidenced by letters, accounts etc. In hindsight, that evidence was worthless; however, at the time it would have been enough for JC.

How they arrived at their opinion for the most recent year, after UBIG had (publicly) withdrawn their support, I don't know. I am merely suggesting that they know more about the situation than I do.

Audit firms are, like anyone, subject to commercial pressures. The better ones are able to resist those pressures when it comes to matters of integrity. However, they are all subject to periodic review. One of the things the reviewer looks at is the evidence to support an audit opinion, and whether that has been influenced by other factors. IF JC have been influenced in the way you suggest, they will get their head in their hands.

Those reviews, by the way, can be prompted by public complaint :greengrin

sidneyhibbie
27-06-2013, 02:18 PM
They seem to think HWU Have given them a great gesture by writting off this debt, they have no shame this is scandelous they should be barred until this debt is paid.

CropleyWasGod
27-06-2013, 02:22 PM
They seem to think HWU Have given them a great gesture by writting off this debt, they have no shame this is scandelous they should be barred until this debt is paid.

Have HWU actually written off anything?

And, why should the debt to HWU be paid before anybody else? That would be illegal. :wink:

josef k
30-06-2013, 04:16 PM
Wonder how HW are viewing the news of Hearts adding to their wage bill whilst the don't pay their rent? I am sure that Edinburgh Councillor Ricky Henderson, Hearts supporting member of HW's court (which oversees HW's financial activities) will be keeping a careful watch: http://www.hw.ac.uk/about/governance/court.htm

Prof. Shaggy
30-06-2013, 04:35 PM
Wonder how HW are viewing the news of Hearts adding to their wage bill whilst the don't pay their rent? I am sure that Edinburgh Councillor Ricky Henderson, Hearts supporting member of HW's court (which oversees HW's financial activities) will be keeping a careful watch: http://www.hw.ac.uk/about/governance/court.htm

Hmmm.... A bid is in to host the National Performance Centre for Sports.
He's not the only one keeping a careful watch...

http://thewattclub.hw.ac.uk/2013/06/26/go-edinburgh-back-the-bid/

sidneyhibbie
01-07-2013, 11:56 AM
Tread title should now be changed to 160k.:cb

McSwanky
01-07-2013, 12:00 PM
Tread title should now be changed to 160k.:cb

Oh good, you're back. Gonnae give us the name of the person you were sealing with in HWU now?

Thanks in advance!

Lucius Apuleius
01-07-2013, 12:34 PM
Tread title should now be changed to 160k.:cb

I am tyred of seeing thread titles change.

CropleyWasGod
01-07-2013, 12:36 PM
I am tyred of seeing thread titles change.

Get a grip.

Lucius Apuleius
01-07-2013, 12:38 PM
Get a grip.

Jeez, who got you so pumped up?

CropleyWasGod
01-07-2013, 12:40 PM
Jeez, who got you so pumped up?

Sorry. It's Monday. I'm just so deflated. Give me the rubber ear.

Lucius Apuleius
01-07-2013, 12:45 PM
Sorry. It's Monday. I'm just so deflated. Give me the rubber ear.

Definitely after that one! Too much pressure?

Caversham Green
01-07-2013, 12:54 PM
I recall it now. It was after the injection of cash into Hearts by SMG around the time when Hibs were relegated. Hearts were supposed to be investing large sums in a training centre. I wondered how the whole thing metamorphosed into a rental deal. Hearts seem to have spent the money on crap players from England like Fitzroy Simpson and built a team that Hibs took apart 3-0 at Tynecastle.

Many on this thread seem to be treating Heriot-Watt as the bad guys. Heriot-Watt are the victims like a load of small firms in the area, players landladies, City of Edinburgh Council, Lothian Police, etc. plus HMRC.

Those guilty along with Romanov and his criminal gang are those who allowed Hearts to carry on despite the fact that they have been technically insolvent for some years. This includes the supine press who believed the crap about 'Hearts cutting costs' or Hearts are self-sufficient' and reprinted press releases without any critical comment.

It also includes the auditors who admitted that the only reason they were signing off the accounts was that UBIG had promised financial support despite the fact that there was no evidence that UBIG had the means. This was done on more than one occasion. Then when Romanov declared that no further support was forthcoming from UBIG (and it was clear that they hadn't a bean) they only went and signed the accounts off again. This time without any qualification! This kept the Hearts' roadshow going for at least a year longer than it should have.

I am sure that Cropley will come riding to the defence of the Auditors but I am not buying it.

It was more likely to be me who came riding to the defence of the auditors having been one myself for more years than I care to remember, but I've only just read this thread. So here goes:

Up to 2010-11 the auditors did everything that was required of them. Their primary duty is to report on whether the accounts show a true and fair view of their client's financial affairs. Where they have doubts they must state those doubts in their report. The auditor's reports for those years basically said that they had assurances from UBIG that financial support would continue (I have no doubt that they did have those assurances) but that they were unable to verify that UBIG were in a position to give those assurances, because they had not been given sufficient information. There's not much else they could have done in the circumstances, and they were proved right by the fact that HoMFC carried on trading after those reports were issued, but in any case the people to whom the reports were aimed should know enough to understand that they meant that the accounts were of little value.

2011-12 gives a very different picture though. I was surprised that the report was unqualified, but on reading the emphasis of matter could see the reasoning behind it. However, I don't believe it went anywhere near deep enough and I think the auditors were excessively influenced by matters that didn't directly affect the accounts they were reporting on - i.e. the attempts to sell the club. The fact that the club went into administration little more than two months after the report was signed is an indication that they got it very wrong and I suspect there will be a few squeaky bums around the Johnston Carmichael offices at the moment.

On the Riccarton question, HoMFC did pay £2.5m premium on a 30 year lease which I assume went towards the building costs.

--------
01-07-2013, 01:20 PM
Tread title should now be changed to 160k.:cb


I am tyred of seeing thread titles change.


Get a grip.


Jeez, who got you so pumped up?


Sorry. It's Monday. I'm just so deflated. Give me the rubber ear.


Definitely after that one! Too much pressure?


Spare us, will you, guys? Jack it in, please.

Lucius Apuleius
01-07-2013, 01:29 PM
Spare us, will you, guys? Jack it in, please.

God help us, some people go spare over nothing.

Hibbyradge
01-07-2013, 01:36 PM
God help us, some people go spare over nothing.

:agree:

At last we've got to the hub of the matter.

CropleyWasGod
01-07-2013, 01:38 PM
:agree:

At last we've got to the hub of the matter.

You mean that, when Hearts screwed HWU for the money, it was done quickly?

A speed-bump.

Hibbyradge
01-07-2013, 01:48 PM
You mean that, when Hearts screwed HWU for the money, it was done quickly?

A speed-bump.

I don't think that has a bearing on anything, but you'd need to ask their Spokesperson.

jonty
01-07-2013, 02:45 PM
I don't think that has a bearing on anything, but you'd need to ask their Spokesperson.
The topic has run flat, so i'm not sure we need to invalve some overinflated spokesperson.

Speedway
01-07-2013, 02:47 PM
Carnage as a passer by drops a quid whilst walking through a group of Yams.



10441

crash
24-07-2013, 05:15 AM
Can I suggest that someone based in Scotland submits the Freedom Of Information request below:

It should be directed to
Andrew M Menzies

Director of Finance

A.M.Menzies@hw.ac.uk


Dear Sir/Madam

As a tax payer I am appalled to hear that Heriot Watt University (HW) is continuing to offer facilities to Heart of Midlothian Football Club (HMFC) while the club has failed to pay rent for a term reported to be up to 15 months. Quite how the university can run "Business" courses while allowing privately owned companies to consistently fail to pay their bills is quite staggering.


While HMFC were failing to pay your bills they were busy signing players they couldn't afford and paying huge wages to footballers they could not afford. They are guilty of financial doping of the worst kind. It seems to me that HW have consistently supported this financial doping by allowing HMFC to use their facilities despite non-payment of bills.


I would be grateful if you would answer the following questions. I ask them under the terms of the freedom of information Act




How much money do HMFC currently owe to HW ?
When did they last pay any of the bills to you on time ?
What measures have you taken in the last 15 months to recover this debt ?
Have any HW staff been offered and/or accepted any hospitality packages at HMFC in the last 2 years ?
Will you confirm that HMFC will now, not be allowed to use your facilities without payment up front in future ?
Who is the member of HW staff who decided to allow HMFC to continue to use sporting facilities despite non payment of their account ?
Do you allow any other privately owned companies to access your sporting facilities for free ?
By way of balance have you offered your sporting facilities free of charge to any other Professional Football Club ?



Have just done an FOI request. Also done one to the council asking about safety certifcates for Tynecastle.

Will post replies if, and when i get them.

Any news on these yet Southside? FOI laws state you should have received replies to your requests by now (20 working days).

Hibernia Na Eir
24-07-2013, 06:31 AM
looking forward to seeing the FOI feedback.

Jones28
24-07-2013, 07:28 AM
Has this been submitted? :thumbsup:

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
24-07-2013, 08:00 AM
Any news on these yet Southside? FOI laws state you should have received replies to your requests by now (20 working days).

Still waititng on the HWU to come back (today is the deadline) - will post when i do.

Got the council one back re the safety certificate. I could do with some help on this if there are any experts on these things hanging around these boards (not my area of expertise really). Also, any suggestions for follow-ups?

Dear Southside,

Environmental Information (Scotland) Regulations 2004 - Release of Information

Subject: Tynecastle Football Stadium

Thank you for your request for information which has been dealt with under the terms of the Environmental Information (Scotland) Regulations 2004. Your request for information has been considered and the information is below. I shall respond to each of your questions in turn.

Question 1 – When was there an assessment last carried out on the main stand at Tynecastle Football Stadium (or on the stadium as a whole) with regards the granting of a safety certificate?

Answer 1 - There was a scheduled structural survey of the main stand carried out on 23 May 2013.

Question 2 - Were any concerns highlighted by this assessment?

Answer 2 - The result of the survey was that the main stand was considered structurally adequate.

Question 3 - If concerns were raised, what action has been taken to assure the council that they have been addressed?

Answer 3 - There is some corrosion protection work required. This does not compromise the structural integrity of the metalwork.

Question 4 - What time period does the current safety certificate(s) cover?

Answer 4 - The current Safety Certificate covers the period until 14 August 2013. This is reviewed on an annual basis and is independent of the structural inspection. For example, if the structure was found to be unsafe, a safety certificate could still be issued on the basis of a zero capacity crowd.

Question 5 - Please could you provide copies of all emails relating to the granting of a safety certificate to Tynecastle Stadium between City of Edinburgh Council officials, and between City of Edinburgh Council Officials and Heart of Midlothian FC, or any affiliated, contracted or related companies and/or employees?

Answer 5 - There are no emails held in relation to the granting of the current Safety Certificate.

Question 6 - When is the next inspection of the main stand at Tynecastle Stadium, or Tynecastle Stadium in general due?

Answer 6 - There is a scheduled inspection of the main stand due to take place November 2013.

cabbageandribs1875
24-07-2013, 08:20 AM
Question 2 - Were any concerns highlighted by this assessment?

Answer 2 - The result of the survey was that the main stand was considered structurally adequate.


.


sgd yours faithfully

steve cardownie

jonty
24-07-2013, 08:23 AM
Answer 4 - The current Safety Certificate covers the period until 14 August 2013. This is reviewed on an annual basis and is independent of the structural inspection. For example, if the structure was found to be unsafe, a safety certificate could still be issued on the basis of a zero capacity crowd.



Interesting scenario. :greengrin

essexhibee
24-07-2013, 09:16 AM
Carnage as a passer by drops a quid whilst walking through a group of Yams.



10441

The infamous Bridge of Doom. :greengrin: