Kaiser Bill Papped His Breeks & They Saved Football Singlehandedly

[Leith Mo]

Not sure if anybody noticed it, but in the Scotsman Letters of 18th or 19th June one of them wrote the following arrogant nonsense which merely confirms why I want them totally deid!:


The current crisis at Tynecastle has generated a great deal of hyperbole. Hearts are routinely compared with Third Lanark, Airdrieonians, Gretna, Clydebank, Dunfermline and the team formerly known as Rangers FC. Some observers would have us believe that the club is in imminent danger of liquidation.

There is, however, one fundamental difference between Hearts and these other troubled combinations which most observers have failed to mention. Heart of Midlothian remain the only football club in Great Britain whose fame is not solely founded on honours won on the sporting field. Next year sees the centenary of the voluntary enlistment of a squad of idealistic young Hearts players in a battalion of Lord Kitchener’s New Army. Their sacrifice single-handedly prevented the sport of professional football from being “stopped” by Herbert Asquith’s government.

In 2016 we will commemorate the centenary of the destruction of that magnificent battalion in one tragic hour on the Somme. Growing up in Scotland in the 1960s I used to wonder at the open affection displayed towards Hearts throughout the country. Prospective investors in the club must be made aware of the unique historical significance of this great Scottish institution.

Without Hearts, professional football as we know it would not exist.

Jack Alexander
McCrae’s Battalion Trust


Here is my response - a much edited version of which appeared in the establishment paper that too often as not acts as their mouthpiece strategically posted next to a letter from the Falkirk fan (they're no called the Bairns for nothing as my dad used to say) praising the Jambo's letter. The family part is 100% true. I'm not at all denigrating their sacrifice but FFS they were never alone 1914-18!!!!


Sir,
I write in response to the letter from Jack Alexander, McCrea's Battalion Trust published in yesterday's edition. As Mr Alexander rightly states the recent events surrounding the apparent demise of his beloved HMFC have indeed "generated a great deal of hyperbole" yet I fear that Mr Alexander and his colleagues are themselves exponents of such hyperbole at best and at worst of a gross misinterpretation of historical facts.

Firstly, his contention that HMFC "remain the only football team in Great Britain whose fame is not solely founded on honours won on the sporting field" beggars belief. A quick search of historical fact will enable him to realise one hopes that others, including but not restricted to: Celtic (7 deaths); Brechin (6); Bradford (9); Newcastle (7); and West Ham (5) also made the ultimate sacrifice for a cause they believed in. Other sporting institutions in Edinburgh and beyond also suffered the same fate, for example the majority of the Edinburgh Academy Rugby championship-winning team of a few years prior to 1914 losing their lives.

To assert that the sacrifice of HMFC "single-handedly prevented…professional football being stopped by…government" is an indication of the maroon-tinted version of history that supporters of other clubs have by now come to expect and largely ignore from followers of the stricken Edinburgh club. The implication is one which is strengthened by their adoption in recent years of a trench-like mentality and arrogance in which they are "the Big Team" hounded by all around them, especially their local neighbours Hibernian (or the so-called "Wee Team" ) in our capital city.

I too grew up in 1960s Scotland and can recall not one hint of open affection towards HMFC throughout the country, merely a strong footballing rivalry which extended even to my own "mixed" Hibernian-Hibs household. Indeed, my uncle was the only son of my grandmother's first husband, himself killed in May 1916 before the carnage of the Somme. The fact that this serving regular army soldier's (and as such one of the first to see action) sacrifice was in fact denied by his own brothers, George "Geordie" Sinclair (a famous former captain and Scotland internationalist) and Willie Sinclair, both players for HMFC at the time, on the grounds that their brother's wife was a Hibernian-supporting Roman Catholic merely serves to strengthen my own personal recognition of the sacrifice made by so many of all footballing and other persuasions during the Great War. Had their brother not died, perhaps my grandmother may never have re-married and perhaps my own father and therefore I myself may never have been born. I would challenge Mr Alexander and others who by implication and inference support the claim that not only did HMFC win the war but also saved football to stand head bowed in front of a Great War grave containing the remains of a man with such implications, and then perhaps understand the true meaning of war and sacrifice.

I for one can not extend any sympathy to the usurpation of historical memory which Mr Alexander and his colleagues and many in the stands of Tynecastle continue to promote. The War was one which affected all, some more than others and certainly others more than Hearts. The Haymarket Clock, for which funds were raised in a charity match played between Hibernian and HMFC as a memorial to ALL sportsmen of Edinburgh from whatever club or sport is a living example of the manner in which Mr Alexander and his ilk and HMFC officially stole the historical memory of the tragedy that unfolded in those years. Prospective investors should indeed be made aware of a history which includes such unique misinterpretation of historical fact and more recent events which may yet turn out to involve theft of a different nature.

Without Hearts, "professional football as we know it would not exist" he claims, to which one can only respond without HMFC professional football may well be a better, open and honest environment. However, perhaps with better management and education, Scottish football may well continue to have a place for Heart of Midlothian in order that some amongst their following can embark on a new and, one would hope this time, accurately interpreted chapter.

[Waxy]

Next year also marks the centenary of their stand.

[HibeeMG]

:top marks

[ManBearPig]

Excellent post well said. Wish I had said it so articulately

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Their crass poppy-watching is going to go into f***ing overdrive next year.

[marinello59]

I still find it hard to believe that Jack Alexander wrote that letter in the first place. A distasteful mix of fantasy, lies and a deluded sense of their own self importance.

[Barney McGrew]

A distasteful mix of fantasy, lies and a deluded sense of their own self importance.

Clearly written by a yam then :cb

[truehibernian]

I still find it hard to believe that Jack Alexander wrote that letter in the first place. A distasteful mix of fantasy, lies and a deluded sense of their own self importance.

Marinello mate, you've very succinctly summed up a long term ex of mine - needless to say she came from a family of Hearts supporters :greengrin It was like real life 'Keeping Up Appearances' when you met the mother in law :faf:

[WindyMiller]

Not sure if anybody noticed it, but in the Scotsman Letters of 18th or 19th June one of them wrote the following arrogant nonsense which merely confirms why I want them totally deid!:



Here is my response - a much edited version of which appeared in the establishment paper that too often as not acts as their mouthpiece strategically posted next to a letter from the Falkirk fan (they're no called the Bairns for nothing as my dad used to say) praising the Jambo's letter. The family part is 100% true. I'm not at all denigrating their sacrifice but FFS they were never alone 1914-18!!!!

Another club who deserve recognition .....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-11741788

[Pretty Boy]

I read the book 'McCrae's Battalion' a couple of years ago.

Perhaps not the best written book ever. However the research and level of detail is absolutely outstanding and it really brought home the sacrifices made in such an abhorent war. Whilst stories from WWI are well known, reading about a group of local guys signing up together with many not making it home is reallyquite sobering.

That's why I find the fact a section of the Hearts support have hijacked that sacrifice and tried to use it as some kind of footballing one upsmanship really distasteful and quite disrespectful.

[AndyM_1875]

Another club who deserve recognition .....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-11741788

Or this fine old London club

http://www.leytonorient.com/news/article/history-somme-358384.aspx

[EskbankHibby]

I read the book 'McCrae's Battalion' a couple of years ago.

Perhaps not the best written book ever. However the research and level of detail is absolutely outstanding and it really brought home the sacrifices made in such an abhorent war. Whilst stories from WWI are well known, reading about a group of local guys signing up together with many not making it home is reallyquite sobering.

That's why I find the fact a section of the Hearts support have hijacked that sacrifice and tried to use it as some kind of footballing one upsmanship really distasteful and quite disrespectful.

:agree:, like the Hearts captain of the time Michael Stewart describing (on their official website) a potential derby victory as "all the more poignant" as the game was being played on or near remembrance Sunday. Aye that's right Mikey, the result of an Edinburgh derby should influence our memories of the sacrifice made by millions during the war, only a victory for Hearts will honour these brave heroes.

[Just Alf]

Leith Mo .... I've just read your post/letter properly for the 1st time and its a really good read.

I didn't know about the origins of the clock and it really shouldn't surprise me that it was originally an "all Edinburgh sportsmans memorial"... Pinched by HMFC... How could they even think this was right and proper!!!

Just to add insult to injury, their claim that the whole team signed up in a oner is correct but the reason for that was that other teams had already lost players to the army. When the wife of someone who'd already signed up and been killed wrote to the papers and said that the Hearts players should all wear the white feather, it was only then they signed up, and with them the rest of Hibs, Dunfermline and Raith Rovers teams signed up to the Macrae battalion as well along with many of their supporters.

My grans sister lost a husband and 3 sons in the one battle during the 1st world war and it still breaks my heart to remember the times I visited as a kid and saw all her black and white photographs and her being so, so proud of them.

[Kaiser1962]

Their crass poppy-watching is going to go into f***ing overdrive next year.

Perhaps if they, and their Glasgow cousins, chose to pay their taxes when due, like we do, then more practical assistance (instead of cuts to services) could be provided for serving soldiers. :cb

[Hibrandenburg]

Jeez! That post sounds like Mr Alexander is trying to promote a book or something. Now why would he go and do a thing like that?

[Kato]

When the wife of someone who'd already signed up and been killed wrote to the papers and said that the Hearts players should all wear the white feather,

...I'm sure said letter was accompanied in The Scotsman by an illustration of the Hearts badge with White Feathers floating around it. Feel sorry for anyone goaded into joining up like that.

Some new info in your letter Leith Mo, thanks.

[poolman]

I still find it hard to believe that Jack Alexander wrote that letter in the first place. A distasteful mix of fantasy, lies and a deluded sense of their own self importance.


Is that guy for real

Truly mind boggling drivel

[surreyhibbie]

Can't believe that was written by Jack Alexander, always held him in high regard, but if that really was him he has shown himself to be complete moron like so many others from that club.

Really really hope it wasn't him though...

[Soldiersteve]

Perhaps if they, and their Glasgow cousins, chose to pay their taxes when due, like we do, then more practical assistance (instead of cuts to services) could be provided for serving soldiers. :cb

I have to agree with that!:top marks

[Makaveli]

I've always hated their use of war deaths as a point-scoring exercise but usually it's just idiot fans and opportunistic marketing staff.

When a previously respectable guy like Alexander comes out with that bullsh** you can tell that they're really hurting.

[Hibercelona]

That's the biggest load of pile i've seen any of them come out with in quite some time. (And they come out with a lot of pile!)

As someone else pointed out. If they actually paid their taxes, then perhaps the Government would have more money to spend on ex-soldiers who are still suffering from their traumatic experiences.

[Scouse Hibee]

That letter from Alexander is a ****** insult to both our intelligence and the memory of many who lost their lives.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I've always hated their use of war deaths as a point-scoring exercise but usually it's just idiot fans and opportunistic marketing staff.

When a previously respectable guy like Alexander comes out with that bullsh** you can tell that they're really hurting.



and that's exactly what it was/is, i always felt nauseated when that Alexander yin was allowed to post his propaganda each year on here, it was impossible to tell him to beat it with his hertz won the war p@sh without sounding disrespectful to each and every human being that died for their country, never mentioning the Gretna rail disaster with over 200 recruits from Leith and Edinburgh losing their lives, even more nauseating is good old lord of p@shy breeks foulkes trying his utmost to let the UK government know all about his poxy shameful club and wanting it recognised all over the world, a horrible big fat drunken grotbag wanting respect ? pffft GTF foulkes, the hertz players that lost their life's must be turning in their graves at the thought of that lump o Lard having anything to do with the club they played for.


Quintishill

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_a_o/0_around_edinburgh_-_pilrig_gretna_rail_disaster_procession.htm (http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_a_o/0_around_edinburgh_-_pilrig_gretna_rail_disaster_procession.htm)

[oregonhibby]

Not sure if anybody noticed it, but in the Scotsman Letters of 18th or 19th June one of them wrote the following arrogant nonsense which merely confirms why I want them totally deid!:



Here is my response - a much edited version of which appeared in the establishment paper that too often as not acts as their mouthpiece strategically posted next to a letter from the Falkirk fan (they're no called the Bairns for nothing as my dad used to say) praising the Jambo's letter. The family part is 100% true. I'm not at all denigrating their sacrifice but FFS they were never alone 1914-18!!!!

What an outstanding letter in response. I have met Jack and I have never understood his stance. His book is a good read but it is one of many and one of many stories of sacrifice. Football without Hearts would be different - neither worse or better - but different. There are parallels with what we are seeing in the wider economy here. We are in a much worse position today because we bailed out failed institutions who used other peoples' money to gamble in a game they eventually lost. There are many eminent people - not politicians - who have suggested that they should have been allowed to die. America allowed it with pre-eminent institution and perhaps so should have Britain. A political solution is one to be wary of and I believe it would have been a political decision within the games regulatory bodies that allowed Hearts to get to the end of the season even when they were probably trading in an insolvent position - BDO effectively confirmed this. I hope when all is said and done that those people who broke the law are called to task.

I will honour all the dead when the anniversary of WW1 comes along, amongst them will be Hearts players and Hearts supporters, but so will be supporters and players of all sporting institutions from both sides.

[ScottB]

Apart from anything else, the suggestion that WW1 was a fight for our nations survival is a nonsense, it wasn't world war 2, a struggle against outright evil.

And to state they are singlehandedly responsible. A slap in the face of every veteran and their decendents if ever there was one. Arrogant fools that believe their own twisted maroon soaked history.

[Mr White]

The crass statement about saving professional football singlehandedly totally undermines the otherwise worthy cause he champions and is an insult to the sacrifice made by those who gave their lives.

[hibby rae]

Does anyone know Jack Alexander's back story to make him such an analytical genius? I'm guessing he's not a historian.

[jacomo]

Their crass poppy-watching is going to go into f***ing overdrive next year.

Well, they'll need something to do. At the moment, it looks doubtful they'll have a football team to support.

[Geo_1875]

What an outstanding letter in response. I have met Jack and I have never understood his stance. His book is a good read but it is one of many and one of many stories of sacrifice. Football without Hearts would be different - neither worse or better - but different. There are parallels with what we are seeing in the wider economy here. We are in a much worse position today because we bailed out failed institutions who used other peoples' money to gamble in a game they eventually lost. There are many eminent people - not politicians - who have suggested that they should have been allowed to die. America allowed it with pre-eminent institution and perhaps so should have Britain. A political solution is one to be wary of and I believe it would have been a political decision within the games regulatory bodies that allowed Hearts to get to the end of the season even when they were probably trading in ainsolvent position - BDO effectively confirmed this. I hope when all is said and done that those people who broke the law are called to task.

I will honour all the dead when the anniversary of WW1 comes along, amongst them will be Hearts players and Hearts supporters, but so will be supporters and players of all sporting institutions from both sides.

To be fair I think hertz under Romanov were more like Enron than any of the banks that were involved in the recent downturn.

[FranckSuzy]

Excellent post well said. Wish I had said it so articulately

:agree: I agree totally. Outstanding letter in response Leith Mo :aok:

[Bostonhibby]

Not sure if anybody noticed it, but in the Scotsman Letters of 18th or 19th June one of them wrote the following arrogant nonsense which merely confirms why I want them totally deid!:



Here is my response - a much edited version of which appeared in the establishment paper that too often as not acts as their mouthpiece strategically posted next to a letter from the Falkirk fan (they're no called the Bairns for nothing as my dad used to say) praising the Jambo's letter. The family part is 100% true. I'm not at all denigrating their sacrifice but FFS they were never alone 1914-18!!!!


A terrific response from Mo, and it would be a great contribution to any debate normally but if it includes a yammish element they simply have closed minds about the facts of this particular piece of history that they have now claimed for their own ends. Especially in recent years when there has been a constant flow of distasteful news associated with their grubby wee club, they have enhanced the hearts element of this one because on the face of it they feel it gives them some respectability perhaps.

I used to try and make the point, when it does come up in discussion with the very few yammish I know, that I have done a bit of what I like to think is unbiased research into the footballing Macraes connection because I am interested from a social history angle. Have read other related books but I think that Macraes Battalion by Jack Alexander ironically actually helps put the hearts rather selfish and inward looking claims into context.

From the Average Yam point of view it starts quite well as on the front cover there is indeed a picture of a player sitting with a ball in front of him with Hearts FC written on it. As your average plum doesn't do words or reading the front cover may be proof positive as far as they are concerned.

However it is fair to say that ANY number of clubs could have been put in the same position and they are certainly entitled to make the same general claims that the Yammish do on exactly the same basis. History and the regiments archive tends to support this and as the author says

" The history of the 16th Battalion during the First World War. 16 RS was also known as the Heart of Midlothian Battalion as many football players joined it. In fact 75 Clubs contributed members"


This is the chronicle of a group of brave people who joined to fight for their country, many of them happened to be footballers.

Looking beyond the self serving hijacking of their memories, that has only recently occured, and going back to the time where men were joining up for war, it was common for groups of men who worked together (whatever their trade) or from the same villages / areas to join up together. Records show that they enlisted in groups at the same time, to stay together and fight together with friends around them in awful times.

This is what happened here and I simply do not believe that any one group of football fans has any more right to celebrate their bravery than any other Scot generally, or other relative of the fallen who happens not to support Hearts.

Anyone looking in at Scottish football culture generally over the last couple of years in particular would have to see the spin they put on this one as jaw dropping tribalism for its own sake.

[Kato]

Their crass poppy-watching is going to go into f***ing overdrive next year.

Isn't "Poppy Hogging" a more apt term. They are Poppy Hoggers.

[Treadstone]

Any truth in the rumour that Private Ryan and his brothers wouldn't go to sleep in the US of A until they heard the 'Hearts Midlothians' score on the wireless transistor.

[God Petrie]

A big reason for the defeat in the Vietnam war was the demoralising effect of a certain result in 1973.

[Kato]

A big reason for the defeat in the Vietnam war was the demoralising effect of a certain result in 1973.

Its why North Korea are sabre rattling, they know the ****s are at a low ebb.

[lyonhibs]

I had it in my head that Jack Alexander wasn't even a Jambo, which would make that toe-curling display of historically inaccurate and disrespectful self-indulgence all the more gob-smacking.

[Bostonhibby]

Its why North Korea are sabre rattling, they know the ****s are at a low ebb.

Agree, now that Vlad is gone Kim Jong has spotted a real gap in the Dear Leader market and is going to launch some sort of offensive to win their adulation, they are the best at it to be fair.

[--------]

Not sure if anybody noticed it, but in the Scotsman Letters of 18th or 19th June one of them wrote the following arrogant nonsense which merely confirms why I want them totally deid!:

The current crisis at Tynecastle has generated a great deal of hyperbole. Hearts are routinely compared with Third Lanark, Airdrieonians, Gretna, Clydebank, Dunfermline and the team formerly known as Rangers FC. Some observers would have us believe that the club is in imminent danger of liquidation.

There is, however, one fundamental difference between Hearts and these other troubled combinations which most observers have failed to mention. Heart of Midlothian remain the only football club in Great Britain whose fame is not solely founded on honours won on the sporting field. Next year sees the centenary of the voluntary enlistment of a squad of idealistic young Hearts players in a battalion of Lord Kitchener’s New Army. Their sacrifice single-handedly prevented the sport of professional football from being “stopped” by Herbert Asquith’s government.

In 2016 we will commemorate the centenary of the destruction of that magnificent battalion in one tragic hour on the Somme. Growing up in Scotland in the 1960s I used to wonder at the open affection displayed towards Hearts throughout the country. Prospective investors in the club must be made aware of the unique historical significance of this great Scottish institution.

Without Hearts, professional football as we know it would not exist.

Jack Alexander
McCrae’s Battalion Trust




If Jack Alexander really believes this, he's lost all my respect as a historian and as a man. I've posted this before now and I'll post it again - McCrae's battalion wasn't in any sense unique. It was simply one of DOZENS of what were known as "Pals' Battalions" raised at the start of the Great War to replace the losses suffered by the Regular Army and Territorial Army Battalions in the battles of 1914 and 1915. The Hearts players were simply doing what tens of thousands of other young men were doing at the time.

The idea that the Asquith government was about to abolish professional football in Great Britain is ludicrous - at most they MAY have been considering closing down the Leagues for the duration of the war. The cricketer WG Grace wrote to "The Sportsman" on 26 August 1914 suggesting that county cricket should cease in view of the probability that the players would be called upon "to serve either at home or abroad before the war is brought to a conclusion". The question of whether it was appropriate to continue to play professional sport while young men, many of them professional or amateur sportsmen, were being killed or wounded in the fighting, was a serious issue which exercised the minds of both the government and the ruling bodies of all sports then played in the UK. It was an issue that arose at the outbreak of the Second World War also, but in both wars the decision was never to "abolish" any sport - sporting fixtures continued to be played as a boost to civilian and service morale - "business as usual" was to be maintained as far as was possible or appropriate.

The Pals' Battalions were raised by a variety of means, some of them not terribly ethical. It's true that many young men (and many not so young) volunteered freely and enthusiastically for war service. It's also true that many were coerced into "volunteering" by moral blackmail and outright misrepresentation and lies regarding the conditions likely to be encountered once enlisted. It was common for soldiers home on leave to be accosted by civilians (who hadn't themselves volunteered) accusing them of cowardice; the only way to avoid this was for them to wear uniform whenever they went out in public. It became a popular pastime among officious women of a particular type to hand out white feathers to any men they considered to be "shirkers".

The thing is that there were dozens of these battalions, and the idea that the Hearts players were somehow more heroic and idealistic than the other young men stepping forward to enlist is ridiculous. It's also deeply insulting to the memory of all the other young men who served in the armed forces in the Great War.

Disenchantment with the idea of volunteering to serve in the New Army (AKA Kitchener's Army) was so widespread by the later months of 1915 that the government passed the Military Service Act introducing compulsory conscription in January 1916. Factors contributing to this disenchantment were the appalling casualty numbers suffered by the British Expeditionary Force during the Flanders fighting of 1915 (for no appreciable gain whatsoever); the futile losses suffered at the Dardanelles (again for no appreciable gain); and serious deficiencies in the way the War Office cared for the dependents of the war dead and the wounded and disabled servicemen returning from the front. The families of those killed in the Gretna train disaster of May 1915 involving a troop train taking the 7th Battalion (TA) of the Royal Scots to Liverpool to embark for the Dardanelles were initially denied the usual widows' and dependents' pensions on the grounds that their men weren't killed in action at the front; those disabled in the crash and invalided out of the Army as a consequence were also denied benefits on the same grounds.

I have always been suspicious of the popular accounts of the raising of McCrae's Battalion. It's a matter of public record that the entire Hearts team volunteered as one; why they did so is another matter. I would really like to know what pressure or influence (if any) were brought to bear on those young men by the community they lived in, through their employers or neighbours or friends and families. The initial enthusiasm for enlistment was a product of genuine patriotism, the misguided idea of the glory of armed service in war, growing anti-German hysteria during the first year of the war, a sense of moral obligation placed on the shoulders of young men by the generations older than them - a whole lot of things we can't ever truly know about 100 years after the fact.

The Great War was an unimaginably complex and incomprehensible tragedy for a whole generation of people in the UK; it was an equally unimaginable and incomprehensible tragedy for whole generations of men, women and children throughout Europe throughout the 20th century and still affects us today, and for anyone to use even a small part of that tragedy to somehow justify and sanctify the events of the past seven years at Tynecastle is unacceptable and immoral.

[mrdependable]

If Jack Alexander really believes this, he's lost all my respect as a historian and as a man. I've posted this before now and I'll post it again - McCrae's battalion wasn't in any sense unique. It was simply one of DOZENS of what were known as "Pals' Battalions" raised at the start of the Great War to replace the losses suffered by the Regular Army and Territorial Army Battalions in the battles of 1914 and 1915. The Hearts players were simply doing what tens of thousands of other young men were doing at the time.

The idea that the Asquith government was about to abolish professional football in Great Britain is ludicrous - at most they MAY have been considering closing down the Leagues for the duration of the war. The cricketer WG Grace wrote to "The Sportsman" on 26 August 1914 suggesting that county cricket should cease in view of the probability that the players would be called upon "to serve either at home or abroad before the war is brought to a conclusion". The question of whether it was appropriate to continue to play professional sport while young men, many of them professional or amateur sportsmen, were being killed or wounded in the fighting, was a serious issue which exercised the minds of both the government and the ruling bodies of all sports then played in the UK. It was an issue that arose at the outbreak of the Second World War also, but in both wars the decision was never to "abolish" any sport - sporting fixtures continued to be played as a boost to civilian and service morale - "business as usual" was to be maintained as far as was possible or appropriate.

The Pals' Battalions were raised by a variety of means, some of them not terribly ethical. It's true that many young men (and many not so young) volunteered freely and enthusiastically for war service. It's also true that many were coerced into "volunteering" by moral blackmail and outright misrepresentation and lies regarding the conditions likely to be encountered once enlisted. It was common for soldiers home on leave to be accosted by civilians (who hadn't themselves volunteered) accusing them of cowardice; the only way to avoid this was for them to wear uniform whenever they went out in public. It became a popular pastime among officious women of a particular type to hand out white feathers to any men they considered to be "shirkers".

The thing is that there were dozens of these battalions, and the idea that the Hearts players were somehow more heroic and idealistic than the other young men stepping forward to enlist is ridiculous. It's also deeply insulting to the memory of all the other young men who served in the armed forces in the Great War.

Disenchantment with the idea of volunteering to serve in the New Army (AKA Kitchener's Army) was so widespread by the later months of 1915 that the government passed the Military Service Act introducing compulsory conscription in January 1916. Factors contributing to this disenchantment were the appalling casualty numbers suffered by the British Expeditionary Force during the Flanders fighting of 1915 (for no appreciable gain whatsoever); the futile losses suffered at the Dardanelles (again for no appreciable gain); and serious deficiencies in the way the War Office cared for the dependents of the war dead and the wounded and disabled servicemen returning from the front. The families of those killed in the Gretna train disaster of May 1915 involving a troop train taking the 7th Battalion (TA) of the Royal Scots to Liverpool to embark for the Dardanelles were initially denied the usual widows' and dependents' pensions on the grounds that their men weren't killed in action at the front; those disabled in the crash and invalided out of the Army as a consequence were also denied benefits on the same grounds.

I have always been suspicious of the popular accounts of the raising of McCrae's Battalion. It's a matter of public record that the entire Hearts team volunteered as one; why they did so is another matter. I would really like to know what pressure or influence (if any) were brought to bear on those young men by the community they lived in, through their employers or neighbours or friends and families. The initial enthusiasm for enlistment was a product of genuine patriotism, the misguided idea of the glory of armed service in war, growing anti-German hysteria during the first year of the war, a sense of moral obligation placed on the shoulders of young men by the generations older than them - a whole lot of things we can't ever truly know about 100 years after the fact.

The Great War was an unimaginably complex and incomprehensible tragedy for a whole generation of people in the UK; it was an equally unimaginable and incomprehensible tragedy for whole generations of men, women and children throughout Europe throughout the 20th century and still affects us today, and for anyone to use even a small part of that tragedy to somehow justify and sanctify the events of the past seven years at Tynecastle is unacceptable and immoral.
:top marks
well said Doddie

[Famous Fiver]

Doddie That is the best post by a country mile I have ever read on this site. My grandfather died in the nineteen fifties with shrapnel still in his body from WW1. He served in the Cameronians and Black Watch. He was wounded and went back FOUR times. My father served the whole six years of the Second World in the Royal Scots. POW for the last year. Like Doddie, don't give me that Hearts won the war drivel. They just don't get it.

[poolman]

What a ****in educational brilliant post that is Doddie

Sir,I commend you

[stu in nottingham]

Here is my response - a much edited version of which appeared in the establishment paper that too often as not acts as their mouthpiece strategically posted next to a letter from the Falkirk fan (they're no called the Bairns for nothing as my dad used to say) praising the Jambo's letter. The family part is 100% true. I'm not at all denigrating their sacrifice but FFS they were never alone 1914-18!!!!

A fine response it is too, Leith Mo, exposing the hideous Hearts distortion, hypebole and crass hijacking of a sombre part of history.

[qiut]

anyone point me in the right direction to find out more info on the history behind the monument/Clock.

[stu in nottingham]

If Jack Alexander really believes this, he's lost all my respect as a historian and as a man. I've posted this before now and I'll post it again - McCrae's battalion wasn't in any sense unique. It was simply one of DOZENS of what were known as "Pals' Battalions" raised at the start of the Great War to replace the losses suffered by the Regular Army and Territorial Army Battalions in the battles of 1914 and 1915. The Hearts players were simply doing what tens of thousands of other young men were doing at the time.

And another fine post from you, sir.

Entirely right about these types of battalions of course. There were similar units raised in places of work such as hosiery mills in the town where I live. The management tending to step in to the officer roles and the shop floor workers becoming the rank and file. Many of them left in a blaze of 'glory'. Few returned.

[sidjames]

I agree with what you say Doddie.

There is something very fundamentally wrong with this. Very. To make such witless, pompous and as you say ludicrous claims is profoundly offensive.

I have my own suspicions. Something is being alluded to and i dont like it.

That massively crass and unforgiving war, for me, highlights the gross stupidity of mankind. Trumpeting one tiny section of the unfortunates forced by one reason or another to answer the call to arms is appalling in its disrespect to all who fought and were either maimed or killed.

There should be a white feather award for such obnoxious and megalomaniac claims.

[The Green Goblin]

If Jack Alexander really believes this, he's lost all my respect as a historian and as a man. I've posted this before now and I'll post it again - McCrae's battalion wasn't in any sense unique. It was simply one of DOZENS of what were known as "Pals' Battalions" raised at the start of the Great War to replace the losses suffered by the Regular Army and Territorial Army Battalions in the battles of 1914 and 1915. The Hearts players were simply doing what tens of thousands of other young men were doing at the time.

The idea that the Asquith government was about to abolish professional football in Great Britain is ludicrous - at most they MAY have been considering closing down the Leagues for the duration of the war. The cricketer WG Grace wrote to "The Sportsman" on 26 August 1914 suggesting that county cricket should cease in view of the probability that the players would be called upon "to serve either at home or abroad before the war is brought to a conclusion". The question of whether it was appropriate to continue to play professional sport while young men, many of them professional or amateur sportsmen, were being killed or wounded in the fighting, was a serious issue which exercised the minds of both the government and the ruling bodies of all sports then played in the UK. It was an issue that arose at the outbreak of the Second World War also, but in both wars the decision was never to "abolish" any sport - sporting fixtures continued to be played as a boost to civilian and service morale - "business as usual" was to be maintained as far as was possible or appropriate.

The Pals' Battalions were raised by a variety of means, some of them not terribly ethical. It's true that many young men (and many not so young) volunteered freely and enthusiastically for war service. It's also true that many were coerced into "volunteering" by moral blackmail and outright misrepresentation and lies regarding the conditions likely to be encountered once enlisted. It was common for soldiers home on leave to be accosted by civilians (who hadn't themselves volunteered) accusing them of cowardice; the only way to avoid this was for them to wear uniform whenever they went out in public. It became a popular pastime among officious women of a particular type to hand out white feathers to any men they considered to be "shirkers".

The thing is that there were dozens of these battalions, and the idea that the Hearts players were somehow more heroic and idealistic than the other young men stepping forward to enlist is ridiculous. It's also deeply insulting to the memory of all the other young men who served in the armed forces in the Great War.

Disenchantment with the idea of volunteering to serve in the New Army (AKA Kitchener's Army) was so widespread by the later months of 1915 that the government passed the Military Service Act introducing compulsory conscription in January 1916. Factors contributing to this disenchantment were the appalling casualty numbers suffered by the British Expeditionary Force during the Flanders fighting of 1915 (for no appreciable gain whatsoever); the futile losses suffered at the Dardanelles (again for no appreciable gain); and serious deficiencies in the way the War Office cared for the dependents of the war dead and the wounded and disabled servicemen returning from the front. The families of those killed in the Gretna train disaster of May 1915 involving a troop train taking the 7th Battalion (TA) of the Royal Scots to Liverpool to embark for the Dardanelles were initially denied the usual widows' and dependents' pensions on the grounds that their men weren't killed in action at the front; those disabled in the crash and invalided out of the Army as a consequence were also denied benefits on the same grounds.

I have always been suspicious of the popular accounts of the raising of McCrae's Battalion. It's a matter of public record that the entire Hearts team volunteered as one; why they did so is another matter. I would really like to know what pressure or influence (if any) were brought to bear on those young men by the community they lived in, through their employers or neighbours or friends and families. The initial enthusiasm for enlistment was a product of genuine patriotism, the misguided idea of the glory of armed service in war, growing anti-German hysteria during the first year of the war, a sense of moral obligation placed on the shoulders of young men by the generations older than them - a whole lot of things we can't ever truly know about 100 years after the fact.

The Great War was an unimaginably complex and incomprehensible tragedy for a whole generation of people in the UK; it was an equally unimaginable and incomprehensible tragedy for whole generations of men, women and children throughout Europe throughout the 20th century and still affects us today, and for anyone to use even a small part of that tragedy to somehow justify and sanctify the events of the past seven years at Tynecastle is unacceptable and immoral.

Great post (as ever) Doddie. You should, imho, send that last paragraph in bold as a letter in response to the paper. You might (forgive me) insert the words "avaricious and reckless" in front of the word "events". The excellent point an earlier poster made about non-payment of tax and wasting of millions of tax-payers' money from Lithuania on players' wages which wouldn't normally be affordable, thus denying services to ex-soldiers still struggling to live with the effects of war might be worth including. It's just a thought. Such reprehensible and offensive nonsense simply must not be allowed to go properly unchallenged. I hope you send it. Great post.,

[Winston Ingram]

Not sure if anybody noticed it, but in the Scotsman Letters of 18th or 19th June one of them wrote the following arrogant nonsense which merely confirms why I want them totally deid!:



Here is my response - a much edited version of which appeared in the establishment paper that too often as not acts as their mouthpiece strategically posted next to a letter from the Falkirk fan (they're no called the Bairns for nothing as my dad used to say) praising the Jambo's letter. The family part is 100% true. I'm not at all denigrating their sacrifice but FFS they were never alone 1914-18!!!!

:not worth

[--------]

Great post (as ever) Doddie. You should, imho, send that last paragraph in bold as a letter in response to the paper. You might (forgive me) insert the words "avaricious and reckless" in front of the word "events". The excellent point an earlier poster made about non-payment of tax and wasting of millions of tax-payers' money from Lithuania on players' wages which wouldn't normally be affordable, thus denying services to ex-soldiers still struggling to live with the effects of war might be worth including. It's just a thought. Such reprehensible and offensive nonsense simply must not be allowed to go properly unchallenged. I hope you send it. Great post.,


I should have said that I totally agree with and approve of Mo's letter to the paper. I couldn't put it better myself.

I have Jack Alexander's book on McCrae's - up till now I assumed (stupidly) that he was acting as the impartial historian of a tragic and regrettable chapter in the life of my native city. Now I have to wonder just how dependable his account is.

No one should denigrate in any way the self-sacrifice of the men (and women) who stepped forward in the two world wars to serve their country, but historians have a responsibility not to accept the simplistic "Boys' Own Paper" mythology of war. Actually, historians have one duty and one duty alone - to tell the truth as far as it lies in them; to dig and keep on digging to reveal as much of the truth as remains recoverable after the years that have elapsed since the events they're seeking to describe.

Rudyard Kipling wrote a series of short poems entitled "Epitaphs of War". One of the most poignant is this: "If any question why we died, tell them, because our fathers lied." He lost his own son John in the Great War. The boy had gone to join the Navy, but his eyesight wasn't good enough. He was desperate to serve, and his father, being a friend of Lord Roberts of Kandahar, pulled strings at the War Office to get the boy into the Army.

Kipling's attitude to the formation of the New Army can be summed up in this quotation - "This much we can realise, even though we are so close to it, the old safe instinct saves us from triumph and exultation. But what will be the position in years to come of the young man who has deliberately elected to outcaste himself from this all-embracing brotherhood? What of his family, and, above all, what of his descendants, when the books have been closed and the last balance struck of sacrifice and sorrow in every hamlet, village, parish, suburb, city, shire, district, province, and Dominion throughout the Empire?"

Kipling himself had swallowed the myth.

John Kipling, a subaltern in the Irish Guards, was killed at the battle of Loos in 1915. A shell-burst ripped his face apart; his body wasn't found until 1992, though the DNA identification has since been questioned. Kipling never forgave himself, and wrote the Epitaphs in one sense as an acknowledgement of his terrible mistake. The poet of the Empire had learned his lesson, but at what a cost?

Alexander has prostituted himself and the memory of those young men disgracefully.

[marinello59]

I should have said that I totally agree with and approve of Mo's letter to the paper. I couldn't put it better myself.

I have Jack Alexander's book on McCrae's - up till now I assumed (stupidly) that he was acting as the impartial historian of a tragic and regrettable chapter in the life of my native city. Now I have to wonder just how dependable his account is.

No one should denigrate in any way the self-sacrifice of the men (and women) who stepped forward in the two world wars to serve their country, but historians have a responsibility not to accept the simplistic "Boys' Own Paper" mythology of war. Actually, historians have one duty and one duty alone - to tell the truth as far as it lies in them; to dig and keep on digging to reveal as much of the truth as remains recoverable after the years that have elapsed since the events they're seeking to describe.

Rudyard Kipling wrote a series of short poems entitled "Epitaphs of War". One of the most poignant is this: "If any question why we died, tell them, because our fathers lied." He lost his own son John in the Great War. The boy had gone to join the Navy, but his eyesight wasn't good enough. He was desperate to serve, and his father, being a friend of Lord Roberts of Kandahar, pulled strings at the War Office to get the boy into the Army.

Kipling's attitude to the formation of the New Army can be summed up in this quotation - "This much we can realise, even though we are so close to it, the old safe instinct saves us from triumph and exultation. But what will be the position in years to come of the young man who has deliberately elected to outcaste himself from this all-embracing brotherhood? What of his family, and, above all, what of his descendants, when the books have been closed and the last balance struck of sacrifice and sorrow in every hamlet, village, parish, suburb, city, shire, district, province, and Dominion throughout the Empire?"

Kipling himself had swallowed the myth.

John Kipling, a subaltern in the Irish Guards, was killed at the battle of Loos in 1915. A shell-burst ripped his face apart; his body wasn't found until 1992, though the DNA identification has since been questioned. Kipling never forgave himself, and wrote the Epitaphs in one sense as an acknowledgement of his terrible mistake. The poet of the Empire had learned his lesson, but at what a cost?

Alexander has prostituted himself and the memory of those young men disgracefully.

Another excellent post Doddie and rather sadly I totally agree with your closing remark.

[Ceebs]

If Jack Alexander really believes this, he's lost all my respect as a historian and as a man. I've posted this before now and I'll post it again - McCrae's battalion wasn't in any sense unique. It was simply one of DOZENS of what were known as "Pals' Battalions" raised at the start of the Great War to replace the losses suffered by the Regular Army and Territorial Army Battalions in the battles of 1914 and 1915. The Hearts players were simply doing what tens of thousands of other young men were doing at the time.

The idea that the Asquith government was about to abolish professional football in Great Britain is ludicrous - at most they MAY have been considering closing down the Leagues for the duration of the war. The cricketer WG Grace wrote to "The Sportsman" on 26 August 1914 suggesting that county cricket should cease in view of the probability that the players would be called upon "to serve either at home or abroad before the war is brought to a conclusion". The question of whether it was appropriate to continue to play professional sport while young men, many of them professional or amateur sportsmen, were being killed or wounded in the fighting, was a serious issue which exercised the minds of both the government and the ruling bodies of all sports then played in the UK. It was an issue that arose at the outbreak of the Second World War also, but in both wars the decision was never to "abolish" any sport - sporting fixtures continued to be played as a boost to civilian and service morale - "business as usual" was to be maintained as far as was possible or appropriate.

The Pals' Battalions were raised by a variety of means, some of them not terribly ethical. It's true that many young men (and many not so young) volunteered freely and enthusiastically for war service. It's also true that many were coerced into "volunteering" by moral blackmail and outright misrepresentation and lies regarding the conditions likely to be encountered once enlisted. It was common for soldiers home on leave to be accosted by civilians (who hadn't themselves volunteered) accusing them of cowardice; the only way to avoid this was for them to wear uniform whenever they went out in public. It became a popular pastime among officious women of a particular type to hand out white feathers to any men they considered to be "shirkers".

The thing is that there were dozens of these battalions, and the idea that the Hearts players were somehow more heroic and idealistic than the other young men stepping forward to enlist is ridiculous. It's also deeply insulting to the memory of all the other young men who served in the armed forces in the Great War.

Disenchantment with the idea of volunteering to serve in the New Army (AKA Kitchener's Army) was so widespread by the later months of 1915 that the government passed the Military Service Act introducing compulsory conscription in January 1916. Factors contributing to this disenchantment were the appalling casualty numbers suffered by the British Expeditionary Force during the Flanders fighting of 1915 (for no appreciable gain whatsoever); the futile losses suffered at the Dardanelles (again for no appreciable gain); and serious deficiencies in the way the War Office cared for the dependents of the war dead and the wounded and disabled servicemen returning from the front. The families of those killed in the Gretna train disaster of May 1915 involving a troop train taking the 7th Battalion (TA) of the Royal Scots to Liverpool to embark for the Dardanelles were initially denied the usual widows' and dependents' pensions on the grounds that their men weren't killed in action at the front; those disabled in the crash and invalided out of the Army as a consequence were also denied benefits on the same grounds.

I have always been suspicious of the popular accounts of the raising of McCrae's Battalion. It's a matter of public record that the entire Hearts team volunteered as one; why they did so is another matter. I would really like to know what pressure or influence (if any) were brought to bear on those young men by the community they lived in, through their employers or neighbours or friends and families. The initial enthusiasm for enlistment was a product of genuine patriotism, the misguided idea of the glory of armed service in war, growing anti-German hysteria during the first year of the war, a sense of moral obligation placed on the shoulders of young men by the generations older than them - a whole lot of things we can't ever truly know about 100 years after the fact.

The Great War was an unimaginably complex and incomprehensible tragedy for a whole generation of people in the UK; it was an equally unimaginable and incomprehensible tragedy for whole generations of men, women and children throughout Europe throughout the 20th century and still affects us today, and for anyone to use even a small part of that tragedy to somehow justify and sanctify the events of the past seven years at Tynecastle is unacceptable and immoral.

Many a good post I have read on this forum, but for me this is a stand-out, thank you for your wisdom. Hopefully the uneducated overbye can grasp the reality of what must have been a truly horrific time for all involved.

Again, great post.

[Winston Ingram]

Isn't "Poppy Hogging" a more apt term. They are Poppy Hoggers.

No. Cos to the uneducated it may sound like we have a problem with the poppy

[jacomo]

Many a good post I have read on this forum, but for me this is a stand-out, thank you for your wisdom. Hopefully the uneducated overbye can grasp the reality of what must have been a truly horrific time for all involved.

Again, great post.

There seem to be plenty of them looking in these days, lets hope they are learning their lessons.

As ever, a little humility and sense of responsibility from the Yams would probably go a long way.

[Kato]

No. Cos to the uneducated it may sound like we have a problem with the poppy

Does it? In what way?

I don't worry about what the uneducated think other than to try and bring about a better education for them.

Hearts do "hog" the poppy symbol. They treat it as theirs and there are multiple posts on this thread attesting to that.

The Poppy as a symbol belongs to anyone who wants to display it, both for personal and communal reasons.

Like others on here I can't remember Hearts making a big deal about WWI during the 70's and 80's. The service at Haymarket used to be reported in the paper but it was a low key event and not particularly Hearts orientated. It's only the last 15-20 years or so that it's become more and more portrayed as being "their" thing and special to them. As as been shown above they've hogged the Haymarket memorial which was to all sportsmen from this area not just the Hearts team from that era (whose bravery I'm not doubting).

Pompous wee men hogging on to something to which they have little connection with other than the coincidental aspect of a sports club in order to make themselves look important, that's what I see.

Poppy Hoggers.

[jacomo]

Does it? In what way?

I don't worry about what the uneducated think other than to try and bring about a better education for them.

Hearts do "hog" the poppy symbol. They treat it as theirs and there are multiple posts on this thread attesting to that.

The Poppy as a symbol belongs to anyone who wants to display it, both for personal and communal reasons.

Like others on here I can't remember Hearts making a big deal about WWI during the 70's and 80's. The service at Haymarket used to be reported in the paper but it was a low key event and not particularly Hearts orientated. It's only the last 15-20 years or so that it's become more and more portrayed as being "their" thing and special to them. As as been shown above they've hogged the Haymarket memorial which was to all sportsmen from this area not just the Hearts team from that era (whose bravery I'm not doubting).

Pompous wee men hogging on to something to which they have little connection with other than the coincidental aspect of a sports club in order to make themselves look important, that's what I see.

Poppy Hoggers.

Reading the original letter attributed to Jack Alexander, it's impossible not to agree with you. To make a plea to investors based on Hearts' 'unique' sacrifice now eh? Shabby behaviour.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I spend next to no time checking JKB, but, I very much doubt many have the intellect over there to produce so many articulate posts on any given subject.

It might be an over used phrase at times, but, I think I'll call it "Hibs Class".

[Eyrie]

Does it? In what way?

I don't worry about what the uneducated think other than to try and bring about a better education for them.

Hearts do "hog" the poppy symbol. They treat it as theirs and there are multiple posts on this thread attesting to that.

The Poppy as a symbol belongs to anyone who wants to display it, both for personal and communal reasons.

Like others on here I can't remember Hearts making a big deal about WWI during the 70's and 80's. The service at Haymarket used to be reported in the paper but it was a low key event and not particularly Hearts orientated. It's only the last 15-20 years or so that it's become more and more portrayed as being "their" thing and special to them. As as been shown above they've hogged the Haymarket memorial which was to all sportsmen from this area not just the Hearts team from that era (whose bravery I'm not doubting).

Pompous wee men hogging on to something to which they have little connection with other than the coincidental aspect of a sports club in order to make themselves look important, that's what I see.

Poppy Hoggers.

Poppy Thieves would be a better way of conveying the same message. Their behaviour is disrespectful to everyone who served in the wars and not just the sportsmen who did so.

Great responses from Leith Mo and Doddie.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Some brilliant and well written posts on here ..... Hats off to you.

Nobody, but nobody, on here is trying to belittle or disrespect what the Hearts players did in 1916 or the ultimate sacrifice that many of them made in the end.

But what does irk many of us is the use of this part of Hearts history to imply that for some reason they are a cut above other clubs and in the history of association football have become a special case as a result. As has been stated in previous posts it was not in the least uncommon for whole streets and places of work to join up en masse, this was happening long before the formation of McCrae's battalion.

It is now a known fact that it was not purely a sudden outpouring of patriotism within the dressing room at Tynecastle which prompted the players to sign up ..... This is not intended as an insult, the same social and moral ( some would say immoral ) pressures were behind the decison made by millions of young men to join up.

As anybody who has read my rantings on the Holy Ground section with regard to an article I was upset by regarding the History of Hibs, the one thing I cannot tolerate is the revision of, or misuse of history in order to achieve a selfish and self serving end.

The events of 1916 are an undeniable part of Hearts history and one which should have a proud place in the history of that club, for as long as it exists. But to use these events to suggest that Heart of Midlothian FC shoukl be treated as a special case, or even more ludicrously that they were in some way the saviours of professional football is nothing short of laughable !!! and they should be ashamed of themselves for attempting to misuse their history in this way.

[The Green Goblin]

I should have said that I totally agree with and approve of Mo's letter to the paper. I couldn't put it better myself.

I have Jack Alexander's book on McCrae's - up till now I assumed (stupidly) that he was acting as the impartial historian of a tragic and regrettable chapter in the life of my native city. Now I have to wonder just how dependable his account is.

No one should denigrate in any way the self-sacrifice of the men (and women) who stepped forward in the two world wars to serve their country, but historians have a responsibility not to accept the simplistic "Boys' Own Paper" mythology of war. Actually, historians have one duty and one duty alone - to tell the truth as far as it lies in them; to dig and keep on digging to reveal as much of the truth as remains recoverable after the years that have elapsed since the events they're seeking to describe.

Rudyard Kipling wrote a series of short poems entitled "Epitaphs of War". One of the most poignant is this: "If any question why we died, tell them, because our fathers lied." He lost his own son John in the Great War. The boy had gone to join the Navy, but his eyesight wasn't good enough. He was desperate to serve, and his father, being a friend of Lord Roberts of Kandahar, pulled strings at the War Office to get the boy into the Army.

Kipling's attitude to the formation of the New Army can be summed up in this quotation - "This much we can realise, even though we are so close to it, the old safe instinct saves us from triumph and exultation. But what will be the position in years to come of the young man who has deliberately elected to outcaste himself from this all-embracing brotherhood? What of his family, and, above all, what of his descendants, when the books have been closed and the last balance struck of sacrifice and sorrow in every hamlet, village, parish, suburb, city, shire, district, province, and Dominion throughout the Empire?"

Kipling himself had swallowed the myth.

John Kipling, a subaltern in the Irish Guards, was killed at the battle of Loos in 1915. A shell-burst ripped his face apart; his body wasn't found until 1992, though the DNA identification has since been questioned. Kipling never forgave himself, and wrote the Epitaphs in one sense as an acknowledgement of his terrible mistake. The poet of the Empire had learned his lesson, but at what a cost?

Alexander has prostituted himself and the memory of those young men disgracefully.

I just thought your last bit was an equally excellent summary of the most important point and as such, would hit home to those many readers who don't "think" and who would get that message in an instant.

[nonshinyfinish]

If Jack Alexander really believes this, he's lost all my respect as a historian and as a man. I've posted this before now and I'll post it again - McCrae's battalion wasn't in any sense unique. It was simply one of DOZENS of what were known as "Pals' Battalions" raised at the start of the Great War to replace the losses suffered by the Regular Army and Territorial Army Battalions in the battles of 1914 and 1915. The Hearts players were simply doing what tens of thousands of other young men were doing at the time.

The thing is that there were dozens of these battalions, and the idea that the Hearts players were somehow more heroic and idealistic than the other young men stepping forward to enlist is ridiculous. It's also deeply insulting to the memory of all the other young men who served in the armed forces in the Great War.

The Great War was an unimaginably complex and incomprehensible tragedy for a whole generation of people in the UK; it was an equally unimaginable and incomprehensible tragedy for whole generations of men, women and children throughout Europe throughout the 20th century and still affects us today, and for anyone to use even a small part of that tragedy to somehow justify and sanctify the events of the past seven years at Tynecastle is unacceptable and immoral.


No one should denigrate in any way the self-sacrifice of the men (and women) who stepped forward in the two world wars to serve their country, but historians have a responsibility not to accept the simplistic "Boys' Own Paper" mythology of war. Actually, historians have one duty and one duty alone - to tell the truth as far as it lies in them; to dig and keep on digging to reveal as much of the truth as remains recoverable after the years that have elapsed since the events they're seeking to describe.

Alexander has prostituted himself and the memory of those young men disgracefully.

Two great posts Doddie, particularly the bits above.

Thinking about the astonishingly futile waste of life that was the First World War makes me angrier than just about any other conflict. It leaves me pretty much speechless with rage.

Then for some prick (or assembly of pricks) to try to use it to claim moral high ground or talk up their tawdry football club...

[andudare2]

Not sure if anybody noticed it, but in the Scotsman Letters of 18th or 19th June one of them wrote the following arrogant nonsense which merely confirms why I want them totally deid!:



Here is my response - a much edited version of which appeared in the establishment paper that too often as not acts as their mouthpiece strategically posted next to a letter from the Falkirk fan (they're no called the Bairns for nothing as my dad used to say) praising the Jambo's letter. The family part is 100% true. I'm not at all denigrating their sacrifice but FFS they were never alone 1914-18!!!!mr mo.while it cannot be denied that response i s superb, you do know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!now that you know that you have put them over the edge, which to me is a trifle unfair, but there again **** them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[YehButNoBut]

Noticed Keekback have started their own thread as a response to this one, they are not happy.

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129832-hibsnet-outdo-themselves/

[Mellow Hibee]

Noticed Keekback have started their own thread as a response to this one, they are not happy.

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129832-hibsnet-outdo-themselves/

I don't think they see the irony of commenting about decency, respect, class, etc and then finishing with "Vile mutant ****"

They're also doing a very good job of avoiding discussing the original letter itself.

[marinello59]

They're also doing a very good job of avoiding discussing the original letter itself.

No shock there.
It would be interesting to hear Jack Alexander's defence of that letter. He may well regret the tone of it in hindsight.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think they see the irony of commenting about decency, respect, class, etc and then finishing with "Vile mutant ****"

They're also doing a very good job of avoiding discussing the original letter itself.

Avoiding the real issues? Them, surely not?

I'm personally still having doubts about whether that letter was written by Jack Alexander or not. It really is a shameful twisting of historical facts ala Geobbels.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's a pity it's come to this. To me, the problem seems to have arisen when Hearts took their respect for the war dead from private remembrance, onto the terraces.

I think that was the point when they opened themselves up to ridicule. Mourning should be dignified. Where's the dignity in crass banners, and mock deference to a memory and event that so few of them know nothing about.

It has become a chant, a t-shirt, a tactic in pissing competitions. They have commercialised it and cheapened it.

Is it any wonder that we mock them? Not for what happened in the war, but for the idiotic way they have woven it into their folklore.

Jack Alexander is a Hearts fan, there appears to have been an emotional overload when he wrote that letter. Maybe at a time like this, when it looks like game over at Hearts, he's entitled to go off on one.

As for them,if I hear the words "lest we forget", or "brave men" once again, I'll throw up. Easy punch lines from those who will never understand the horror of war, or deal with the aftermath.

Schoolboys, that get their facts from Commando comics. They don't deserve to be heard. It is their idiotic gravitas that has made this whole business into a sick joke.

[ronaldo7]

No shock there.
It would be interesting to here Jack Alexander's defence of that letter. He may well regret the tone of it in hindsight.

:agree: I would have thought Jack might have heard about the threads here and on KB. It would be nice if he could come along and explain what he meant in the letter. It may have been edited by the Scotsman to a degree.

I will wait and see if he responds.

Hope so.

[lucky]

The thread on kickback and this one actually shows the difference between them and us and its clear that its more than football that divides us.

[Hibs Class]

I cannot find it online anymore, but when they issued the brochure for their share issue last year didn't they have names for the different amounts that could be "invested", at least one of which was a reference to the war - 1914 or similar? When the club is willing to even risk being accused of trying to capitalise on the subject it's little wonder that that tone from the top permeates throughout the club and its followers.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It seems that football rivalry transcends decency.
Utter filth!

...and irony.

[The Green Goblin]

For me, the central issue right now is that the bluster, arrogance and reckless spending of millions of taxpayers' money over the last 6-7 years and the past AND ONGOING smug revelling in the paltry silverware it bought them is being sidelined in favour of vague misplaced emotional arguments to save them. To extend that to WW1 and use it in the current discussion/situation as something in their favour is a massive affront to the soldiers who died. it is just beyond shameful. Appalling.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Had a quick look at the thread on JKB relating to this one, you've really got to wonder how many of them have actually looked at this thread judging by some of the comments they've made.

[Scouse Hibee]

Had a quick look at the thread on JKB relating to this one, you've really got to wonder how many of them have actually looked at this thread judging by some of the comments they've made.


:agree: But you have to take into consideration that many of the mutants across there can just about bash a keyboard about, reading and comprehension will be well beyond many of them.

[Pretty Boy]

Had a quick look at the thread on JKB relating to this one, you've really got to wonder how many of them have actually looked at this thread judging by some of the comments they've made.

I got singled out for criticism. Again.

Flattered that they think so highly of me.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Had a look at the keekback thread.

There are a couple of sensible posts on it to be fair. But by and large its just the usual vile name calling.

Two things:

The guy who went on about the 19th destroying us as a club ..... that will be why the Yams couldnt up their crowds after that game but ours held up. That will be why they couldn't beat us last season and we were able to ensure they were out the cup at the first time of asking.

The guy who said " Hibs have no history " As far as I can see our records are pretty similar on the park, so did he mean off it? A club founded in adversity by the poorest of the poor. The first British club to play in Europe, the first Scottish club to tour South America, the first Scottish club to have an advert on their shirts, they biggest football crowd in Scotland outside of Glasgow. The first Scottish club to beat both Real Madrid and Barcelona, not to mention a hoste of other big European clubs. The club who were acknowledged as the unofficial champions of the world ... no matter how outlandish that may seem now, it wasnt at the time. The club who can name George Best as a former player.

Aye .... nae history right enough.

[Pretty Boy]

Had a look at the keekback thread.

There are a couple of sensible posts on it to be fair. But by and large its just the usual vile name calling.

Two things:

The guy who went on about the 19th destroying us as a club ..... that will be why the Yams couldnt up their crowds after that game but ours held up. That will be why they couldn't beat us last season and we were able to ensure they were out the cup at the first time of asking.

The guy who said " Hibs have no history " As far as I can see our records are pretty similar on the park, so did he mean off it? A club founded in adversity by the poorest of the poor. The first British club to play in Europe, the first Scottish club to tour South America, the first Scottish club to have an advert on their shirts, they biggest football crowd in Scotland outside of Glasgow. The first Scottish club to beat both Real Madrid and Barcelona, not to mention a hoste of other big European clubs. The club who were acknowledged as the unofficial champions of the world ... no matter how outlandish that may seem now, it wasnt at the time. The club who can name George Best as a former player.

Aye .... nae history right enough.

The no history thing is a classic.

I remember a Hearts fan dismissing the acheivement of the famous five because 'Hearts managed the same with only 3.'

Now by all accounts the terrible trio were very good. However I doubt they were so good that Hearts manged to play with only 9 playrrs every week.

[Dunderhall]

Now by all accounts the terrible trio were very good. However I doubt they were so good that Hearts manged to play with only 9 playrrs every week.

Once injuries and suspensions kick in, they might have to ask to give it a go.

[Leith Mo]

Also when you actually consider the fact that the monument they falsely claim as their own was a clock on a roundabout it's quite ironic they are now on the countdown to death.

The people of Leith of course had a much more practical and forward-looking monument to the fallen from the area in building a children's ward for Leith Hospital so the next generation could move on and look forward whilst also remembering the sacrifice made.

Leith class!!!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Also when you actually consider the fact that the monument they falsely claim as their own was a clock on a roundabout it's quite ironic they are now on the countdown to death.

The people of Leith of course had a much more practical and forward-looking monument to the fallen from the area in building a children's ward for Leith Hospital so the next generation could move on and look forward whilst also remembering the sacrifice made.

Leith class!!!

So Leith deaths are more meaningful than Gorgie ones? Do have a think about it.

[Leith Mo]

Not at all. Read my original post again and you will see that in no way am I justifying any death as more worthy than another - on the contrary. My point here is that bringing new life into the world immediately after the loss of all life in the conflict would to me seem to be a much more fitting tribute and that is what Leith's memorial helped to bring about in an age of high infant mortality. Life goes on I think is more important though certainly believe that we should ALL remember ALL those who gave their lives regardless of persuasion, as I said in my original post. Enough said?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Not at all. Read my original post again and you will see that in no way am I justifying any death as more worthy than another - on the contrary. My point here is that bringing new life into the world immediately after the loss of all life in the conflict would to me seem to be a much more fitting tribute and that is what Leith's memorial helped to bring about in an age of high infant mortality. Life goes on I think is more important though certainly believe that we should ALL remember ALL those who gave their lives regardless of persuasion, as I said in my original post. Enough said?

A very good point. I just think that any attempt to compare and contrast different communities contribution and response misses the point.

That's why the way the Yams have spoken about themselves as special has been out of order. Respect is due to the way they approached the matter up till recently. Since then, they have tied it too much into being like a trophy.

[jacomo]

:agree: I would have thought Jack might have heard about the threads here and on KB. It would be nice if he could come along and explain what he meant in the letter. It may have been edited by the Scotsman to a degree.

I will wait and see if he responds.

Hope so.

Bump. Any news on this?

[ronaldo7]

Bump. Any news on this?

I've just been on KB to see if Jack has responded over there, and unfortunately he's not posted on their thread. He has posted on other threads however.

Hope he comes on to tell us what he meant in the letter. He's maybe just settling back home after the Contalmaison trip.:aok:

[Jack Alexander]

My attention has just been drawn to this thread, so apologies for not responding before.

My letter to The Scotsman was intended only to set some of the current speculation surrounding Hearts against discussions taking place in regard to the centenaries of the Great War.

I'm not a Hearts supporter. The book McCrae's Battalion took ten years to research and is an objective study of one of the finest battalions in Lord Kitchener's volunteer armies. It remains in print after ten years and has earned consistent praise from the broadest possible community of readers. An older version of the story suggested the existence of a 'Hearts Battalion', which the entire first team joined, along with hundreds of supporters. When this unit was wiped out, the legend began.

As it turned out, the true story was more interesting and reflected wide credit on the Edinburgh football community. Not only had 13 Hearts players enlisted, but they were joined by others from Raith, Falkirk, Dunfermline, East Fife - and Hibernian. In total around 75 clubs were represented - together with golfers, bowlers, hockey players, rugby players and athletes of every persuasion. I knew many survivors of the 16th Royal Scots and I traced around a thousand families of the original battalion members - many of whom supported Hibs.

McCrae's was destroyed in one morning on the Somme. Survivors tried unsuccessfully to persuade Edinburgh Corporation and other bodies to help them erect a memorial in France. Finally, after publishing McCrae's , I was able to use the book as a lever to get folk interested in the project. A committee of Hearts supporters was formed to help and we engaged in a year of fundraising to build what has become the Contalmaison Cairn. As well as Hearts folk like John Robertson, Michael Stewart and Craig Gordon, we were assisted by Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly and Tom Wright. Lawrie and his wife actually joined the official coach to Contalmaison for the 90th Anniversary. Everyone on the coach was aware that we were in the presence of greatness - everyone (to his eternal credit) but Lawrie.

Since the unveiling of the Cairn in 2004, Contalmaison has risen from obscurity to become the second most important village on the Somme. The maire and the conseil municipal are regularly consulted on every major development in the area. Contalmaison has taken the lead in the Somme's application for Unesco World Heritage status. A wall in the town hall is covered in Scottish football jerseys - Craig Gordon's Scotland jersey, Falkirk, Hearts, Raith and Hibs. It's a little corner of Scotland. Every year at our 1 July ceremony a wreath is laid on behalf of Hibernian F.C. The McCrae's Battalion Trust was created in 2007 to look after the site. It's a non-partisan body that consistently publicises the broad nature of McCrae's, the fact that (although Hearts led the way) the Tynecastle lads were joined by many men from other backgrounds.

I'd like to address some of the points made by Mo, whose evident anger interfered with his ability to assemble a rational argument.

In 1914 professional football was criticised for encouraging young men to stay at home while soldiers were dying at the front. A campaign to have the game stopped by the government was thwarted at the last minute by the enlistment of eleven Hearts players in November 1914. At the crucial moment in Parliament, the Prime Minister was able to counter the stoppers by referring dramatically to events in Edinburgh. Other footballers had enlisted up to that point, but none in so concerted and sensational a manner. At the time Hearts were credited with saving not only the honour of the game but also a number of larger clubs who were carrying substantial debts and to whom stoppage might have resulted in bankruptcy and permanent closure. The raising of McCrae's inspired the creation some weeks later of the famous English Footballers' Battalion, which was joined by numerous members of Clapton Orient.

The terrible tragedy here is one of timing. Battalions raised at this moment would arrive in France just in time to take part in the 'Big Push' of July 1916 - and on the first day of the Somme, McCrae's was wiped out in less than an hour.

That is the essence of my letter to The Scotsman. I cannot see anything contentious in it. Or historically incorrect. Leith Mo chose to take offence, accusing me of 'gross misinterpretation'. I plead not guilty and I'd be pleased to debate the matter with him publicly at any location of his choosing. Unfortunately, Mo, the enlistment of the Hearts players did single-handedly prevent the government from stopping the game. It's a matter of historical record - no matter how distasteful you might find the concept.

Mo also asserts that the Haymarket clocktower is a memorial to all the sportsmen of Edinburgh. This is simply not true. The Heart of Midlothian War Memorial was proposed at the end of the war to mark the unique sacrifice of the club - not least because of the political result of the players' enlistment in 1914 and the subsequent destruction of McCrae's in one awful morning. Funds were raised across Scotland - mostly from the Hearts community. But there was a significant donation from Hibernian, too. On the day of unveiling the memorial was presented to the City of Edinburgh for safe-keeping. Ever since 1922 Hibernian have been represented at the annual ceremony of Remembrance - a tradition that fell away in recent years until I encouraged Garry O'Hagan to resume Hibs' participation.

Mo also asserts I deliberately ignored players from other teams who lost their lives in the war. Since I made no mention of this in my letter to The Scotsman, I wonder at his motives for raising the subject. I'm afraid he's wrong again. Over the last 40 years I have worked tirelessly to shed light on the neglected subject of footballers who served in the war. McCrae's Battalion (I'm proud to say) was the first book to examine the campaign of condemnation that was waged against professionals in the dying months of 1914. As such, it's led the way for some excellent new books, like They Took the Lead and When The Whistle Blows. So I don't need to be lectured on players from other teams.

I'm troubled by the inconsistent attitude towards what constitutes a club roll of honour. Mo suggests that 7 Celtic players died in the war. Well, they didn't. One Celtic player died in the war. His name was Peter Johnstone and he was a key member of Willie Maley's superb pre-1914 side. The rest of the players named in the Celtic roll are men who once had a connection with the club and include a Welsh international goalkeeper who played an unsuccessful trial match in 1910. I think most of you will agree that that's unsupportable.

When discussing a subject as serious as the Great War, could we not try to set aside the tendency to one-upmanship that exists between fans of different teams? Creating rolls of honour made up of players with only tenuous connections to a club is disrespectful. Sadly the Hearts Roll of Honour, a tragic record of lost futures and unfulfilled promise, remains one of the few composed of men who were employed by the club at the time they enlisted. Indeed, since the directors of Hearts generously continued to pay all the players half wages while they were in the Army, they remained Hearts players at the moment of their deaths.

I didn't spend 12 years of my life attempting to tell a story that glorifies the maroon side of Edinburgh. It just so happens that events on the maroon side of Edinburgh in 1914 justified that level of attention. The consequences of 1914-1918 for Heart of Midlothian were far-reaching and explain the listless manner in which the club saw out the inter-war years. Growing up in Scotland in the '60s I did notice an unexpected respect for the institution of the football club - if not for the team. I have no doubt that a generation of Scots that died out 30 years ago maintained a fondness for Hearts that was inspired by the terrible events of 1 July 1916. Again, Mo may not like that, but I observed it and so did many others. As a historian, it's one of the things that got me interested in the story all those years ago.

Finally, I regret Mo's introduction of a note of sectarianism into his response. Whilst I defer to his family knowledge, I must point out that George Sinclair was one of Pat Crossan's best friends. Pat was the Hearts right back - much loved by everyone in Edinburgh and the absolute master of the man he called the 'Wee Blue Nuisance', Alan Morton - in spite of 'Paddy' bringing only one lung back from the war. Crossan was a Roman Catholic. Geordie may have been the type of man that Mo describes, but I can only add that wee bit of testimony to defend his reputation.

In closing, I would remind everyone that the McCrae's Battalion Trust is a non-partisan charity that looks after the Contalmaison Cairn - a memorial that attracts school groups from all over the UK to learn the story of McCrae's - the original Band of Brothers - a battalion of brave young men who didn't care what team their mates supported. They only cared that they were their mates.

I understand the need to snipe and score points on football message boards. But Mo's posting was so far short of measured and fair that I really felt it warranted a full response. I'm grateful to anyone who took the trouble to read this far.

Thank you!

[KWJ]

Thanks for posting Jack.

I have to claim ignorance to the finer details of the footballers lost during the Great War. I found Mo's opening post very interesting but it does seem that you're the man with the facts here and it's all a very fascinating, if agonising, read.

Thank you for replying. I'll endeavour to read more in the future.

[Pete]

My attention has just been drawn to this thread, so apologies for not responding before.

My letter to The Scotsman was intended only to set some of the current speculation surrounding Hearts against discussions taking place in regard to the centenaries of the Great War.

I'm not a Hearts supporter. The book McCrae's Battalion took ten years to research and is an objective study of one of the finest battalions in Lord Kitchener's volunteer armies. It remains in print after ten years and has earned consistent praise from the broadest possible community of readers. An older version of the story suggested the existence of a 'Hearts Battalion', which the entire first team joined, along with hundreds of supporters. When this unit was wiped out, the legend began.

As it turned out, the true story was more interesting and reflected wide credit on the Edinburgh football community. Not only had 13 Hearts players enlisted, but they were joined by others from Raith, Falkirk, Dunfermline, East Fife - and Hibernian. In total around 75 clubs were represented - together with golfers, bowlers, hockey players, rugby players and athletes of every persuasion. I knew many survivors of the 16th Royal Scots and I traced around a thousand families of the original battalion members - many of whom supported Hibs.

McCrae's was destroyed in one morning on the Somme. Survivors tried unsuccessfully to persuade Edinburgh Corporation and other bodies to help them erect a memorial in France. Finally, after publishing McCrae's , I was able to use the book as a lever to get folk interested in the project. A committee of Hearts supporters was formed to help and we engaged in a year of fundraising to build what has become the Contalmaison Cairn. As well as Hearts folk like John Robertson, Michael Stewart and Craig Gordon, we were assisted by Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly and Tom Wright. Lawrie and his wife actually joined the official coach to Contalmaison for the 90th Anniversary. Everyone on the coach was aware that we were in the presence of greatness - everyone (to his eternal credit) but Lawrie.

Since the unveiling of the Cairn in 2004, Contalmaison has risen from obscurity to become the second most important village on the Somme. The maire and the conseil municipal are regularly consulted on every major development in the area. Contalmaison has taken the lead in the Somme's application for Unesco World Heritage status. A wall in the town hall is covered in Scottish football jerseys - Craig Gordon's Scotland jersey, Falkirk, Hearts, Raith and Hibs. It's a little corner of Scotland. Every year at our 1 July ceremony a wreath is laid on behalf of Hibernian F.C. The McCrae's Battalion Trust was created in 2007 to look after the site. It's a non-partisan body that consistently publicises the broad nature of McCrae's, the fact that (although Hearts led the way) the Tynecastle lads were joined by many men from other backgrounds.

I'd like to address some of the points made by Mo, whose evident anger interfered with his ability to assemble a rational argument.

In 1914 professional football was criticised for encouraging young men to stay at home while soldiers were dying at the front. A campaign to have the game stopped by the government was thwarted at the last minute by the enlistment of eleven Hearts players in November 1914. At the crucial moment in Parliament, the Prime Minister was able to counter the stoppers by referring dramatically to events in Edinburgh. Other footballers had enlisted up to that point, but none in so concerted and sensational a manner. At the time Hearts were credited with saving not only the honour of the game but also a number of larger clubs who were carrying substantial debts and to whom stoppage might have resulted in bankruptcy and permanent closure. The raising of McCrae's inspired the creation some weeks later of the famous English Footballers' Battalion, which was joined by numerous members of Clapton Orient.

The terrible tragedy here is one of timing. Battalions raised at this moment would arrive in France just in time to take part in the 'Big Push' of July 1916 - and on the first day of the Somme, McCrae's was wiped out in less than an hour.

That is the essence of my letter to The Scotsman. I cannot see anything contentious in it. Or historically incorrect. Leith Mo chose to take offence, accusing me of 'gross misinterpretation'. I plead not guilty and I'd be pleased to debate the matter with him publicly at any location of his choosing. Unfortunately, Mo, the enlistment of the Hearts players did single-handedly prevent the government from stopping the game. It's a matter of historical record - no matter how distasteful you might find the concept.

Mo also asserts that the Haymarket clocktower is a memorial to all the sportsmen of Edinburgh. This is simply not true. The Heart of Midlothian War Memorial was proposed at the end of the war to mark the unique sacrifice of the club - not least because of the political result of the players' enlistment in 1914 and the subsequent destruction of McCrae's in one awful morning. Funds were raised across Scotland - mostly from the Hearts community. But there was a significant donation from Hibernian, too. On the day of unveiling the memorial was presented to the City of Edinburgh for safe-keeping. Ever since 1922 Hibernian have been represented at the annual ceremony of Remembrance - a tradition that fell away in recent years until I encouraged Garry O'Hagan to resume Hibs' participation.

Mo also asserts I deliberately ignored players from other teams who lost their lives in the war. Since I made no mention of this in my letter to The Scotsman, I wonder at his motives for raising the subject. I'm afraid he's wrong again. Over the last 40 years I have worked tirelessly to shed light on the neglected subject of footballers who served in the war. McCrae's Battalion (I'm proud to say) was the first book to examine the campaign of condemnation that was waged against professionals in the dying months of 1914. As such, it's led the way for some excellent new books, like They Took the Lead and When The Whistle Blows. So I don't need to be lectured on players from other teams.

I'm troubled by the inconsistent attitude towards what constitutes a club roll of honour. Mo suggests that 7 Celtic players died in the war. Well, they didn't. One Celtic player died in the war. His name was Peter Johnstone and he was a key member of Willie Maley's superb pre-1914 side. The rest of the players named in the Celtic roll are men who once had a connection with the club and include a Welsh international goalkeeper who played an unsuccessful trial match in 1910. I think most of you will agree that that's unsupportable.

When discussing a subject as serious as the Great War, could we not try to set aside the tendency to one-upmanship that exists between fans of different teams? Creating rolls of honour made up of players with only tenuous connections to a club is disrespectful. Sadly the Hearts Roll of Honour, a tragic record of lost futures and unfulfilled promise, remains one of the few composed of men who were employed by the club at the time they enlisted. Indeed, since the directors of Hearts generously continued to pay all the players half wages while they were in the Army, they remained Hearts players at the moment of their deaths.

I didn't spend 12 years of my life attempting to tell a story that glorifies the maroon side of Edinburgh. It just so happens that events on the maroon side of Edinburgh in 1914 justified that level of attention. The consequences of 1914-1918 for Heart of Midlothian were far-reaching and explain the listless manner in which the club saw out the inter-war years. Growing up in Scotland in the '60s I did notice an unexpected respect for the institution of the football club - if not for the team. I have no doubt that a generation of Scots that died out 30 years ago maintained a fondness for Hearts that was inspired by the terrible events of 1 July 1916. Again, Mo may not like that, but I observed it and so did many others. As a historian, it's one of the things that got me interested in the story all those years ago.

Finally, I regret Mo's introduction of a note of sectarianism into his response. Whilst I defer to his family knowledge, I must point out that George Sinclair was one of Pat Crossan's best friends. Pat was the Hearts right back - much loved by everyone in Edinburgh and the absolute master of the man he called the 'Wee Blue Nuisance', Alan Morton - in spite of 'Paddy' bringing only one lung back from the war. Crossan was a Roman Catholic. Geordie may have been the type of man that Mo describes, but I can only add that wee bit of testimony to defend his reputation.

In closing, I would remind everyone that the McCrae's Battalion Trust is a non-partisan charity that looks after the Contalmaison Cairn - a memorial that attracts school groups from all over the UK to learn the story of McCrae's - the original Band of Brothers - a battalion of brave young men who didn't care what team their mates supported. They only cared that they were their mates.

I understand the need to snipe and score points on football message boards. But Mo's posting was so far short of measured and fair that I really felt it warranted a full response. I'm grateful to anyone who took the trouble to read this far.

Thank you!


With all respect, Your timing stinks.

Are you deliberately fishing for negative reactions?

[number 27]

Sorry Mr Alexander but that wont do . What you claim to be the motivation for your original letter is an obvious fabrication. You were quite clearly asking for special treatment for HMFC based on their war record. This raises the question of what exactly should they be allowed to get away with in terms of failure to pay bills ,taxes or wages, employment of paedophiles or flagrant financial cheating before this get out of jail card becomes invalid? I am sure you are aware that people on here are not disrespecting the sacrifices made but are expressing distaste at the way these sacrifices are now being used as some form of playground style one-upmanship, unfortunately your letter only helped to feed that and maybe it would have been more appropriate for you to leave your observations to another time. I would also add that despite your reply you still have not justified your assertion that HMFC saved professional football, the players played a very significant role that should never be forgotten but I would suggest that memory does not need to be based on exaggerations and overblown claims.

[brownkg]

Sorry Mr Alexander but that wont do . What you claim to be the motivation for your original letter is an obvious fabrication. You were quite clearly asking for special treatment for HMFC based on their war record. This raises the question of what exactly should they be allowed to get away with in terms of failure to pay bills ,taxes or wages, employment of paedophiles or flagrant financial cheating before this get out of jail card becomes invalid? I am sure you are aware that people on here are not disrespecting the sacrifices made but are expressing distaste at the way these sacrifices are now being used as some form of playground style one-upmanship, unfortunately your letter only helped to feed that and maybe it would have been more appropriate for you to leave your observations to another time. I would also add that despite your reply you still have not justified your assertion that HMFC saved professional football, the players played a very significant role that should never be forgotten but I would suggest that memory does not need to be based on exaggerations and overblown claims.

Sorry I need to reply to this utter nonsense your reply to a very full and neutral response from Jack to exactly the type of fanciful assertions you seem to be complaining about. If you read the Hansard record you will find the motion to close down professional football and the response Asquith used to throw this motion out citing the raising of McCrae's as the reason for not closing football down. Speak to Tom Wright a fellow historian of Jack's and a frequent visitor to Contalmaison and he will also put you right on the matter.
I know you will not thank me for this but I can tell you that the lead stonemason currently restoring the HEARTS GREAT WAR MEMORIAL to its rightful place in Haymarket is a hibby and , as chairman of the friends of Hearts Great War Memorial, I and others are quite relaxed about that fact. We should be above the depths that this thread has plumbed and apply some objectivity rather than the faux outrage expressed


PS as I have said before the petty edits that are enforced by admin on here to my profile does not help in this being an adult debate. I have no doubt it is considered funny but to be objective that is the most Juvenile behaviour that belittles this forum

[Keith_M]

Any reason you're on here posting today, considering how long ago this thread was started?

[brownkg]

Any reason you're on here posting today, considering how long ago this thread was started?

Might be because Jack responded today and was again harranged for so doing or did you just think I chose to randomly post?

[ronaldo7]

I just can't understand why Jack would bother to write to the Scotsman in the first place to link McCrae's Battalion Trust with the Charlatans running HMFC, when he clearly states he's not a Hearts fan.:rolleyes:

What did you mean by this bit Jack...

The current crisis at Tynecastle has generated a great deal of hyperbole. Hearts are routinely compared with Third Lanark, Airdrieonians, Gretna, Clydebank, Dunfermline and the team formerly known as Rangers FC. Some observers would have us believe that the club is in imminent danger of liquidation.

There is, however, one fundamental difference between Hearts and these other troubled combinations which most observers have failed to mention. Heart of Midlothian remain the only football club in Great Britain whose fame is not solely founded on honours won on the sporting field.

[ronaldo7]

Might be because Jack responded today and was again harranged for so doing or did you just think I chose to randomly post?

Jesus wept, get a grip eh. A couple of posters have decided to disagree with him. I'm sure he can fecht his ain battles.

[Keith_M]

Hearts fans post on hibs.net today of all days and that's OK? I for one thisnk theis thread should be closed for a week, jut to see if they re-appear after that.

[number 27]

Sorry I need to reply to this utter nonsense your reply to a very full and neutral response from Jack to exactly the type of fanciful assertions you seem to be complaining about. If you read the Hansard record you will find the motion to close down professional football and the response Asquith used to throw this motion out citing the raising of McCrae's as the reason for not closing football down. Speak to Tom Wright a fellow historian of Jack's and a frequent visitor to Contalmaison and he will also put you right on the matter.

I know you will not thank me for this but I can tell you that the lead stonemason currently restoring the HEARTS GREAT WAR MEMORIAL to its rightful place in Haymarket is a hibby and , as chairman of the friends of Hearts Great War Memorial, I and others are quite relaxed about that fact. We should be above the depths that this thread has plumbed and apply some objectivity rather than the faux outrage expressed

Just for clarity, are you saying that it is established historical fact that without Hearts professional football as we know it today would not exist? That is what Mr Alexander said in his letter, perhaps you can find another historian of repute who would back this assertion up without reservation? -for the record I am delighted for the stonemason.

[Jack Alexander]

This is precisely the kind of petty point-scoring I referred to in my original response.

The Scotsman letter was simply intended to point up the irony that a hundred years after the club effectively saved the reputation of British football it should find itself (through shameless mismanagement) in danger of disappearing. At no point in the letter did I suggest Hearts deserve special consideration from the football authorities; indeed I think any club whose affairs are so badly handled should have the book thrown at them. Sentiment shouldn't come into it.

It's Leith Mo, whose reaction to the letter was intemperate, ill-informed and bitter, who has provoked my further response. Indeed, reading other contributors to the thread, it did seem that many of you would appreciate a response and (hopefully) give it a decent hearing. It's hardly my fault if that response is not to the liking of some of you. I suspect that there are a great many fair-minded Hibs supporters out there (within and beyond the message-boards) who are prepared to listen and to understand that modern prejudices should have no place in understanding or accepting events that took place a hundred years ago.

The fact remains that in 1914 the enlistment of the Hearts players single-handedly prevented the entire sport of professional football from being stopped by the government. Large clubs - household names, especially in England - were carrying monstrous debts at the time. In many ways it was a similar picture to today. Overpaying players, investing in new ground facilities. In the event of compulsory stoppage of the game some of these clubs faced the threat of bankruptcy and extinction. Try to imagine the modern game without them! In another time, perhaps it might have fallen to the players of Orient - or, indeed, of Hibernian to take the action that the Hearts players felt pressurised to take. In that case I would have spent twelve years pursuing the story on their behalf.

At the time - and we are talking about recorded history here - the club's sacrifice was universally acknowledged and it's role in 'saving the game' - the precise contemporary phrase - was unquestioned. As I say, if you turn the tables and we're talking about Hibs doing the same, I would be equally bullish in defence of their reputation. Indeed I've made no friends among certain elements of the Hearts support by continually pointing out the part played by Hibernian in the story of McCrae's.

It's sad that there seems to be a certain resentment towards Heart of Midlothian on this poignant issue. If there are Hearts supporters out there who annoy you by dwelling on this subject, or appearing to bait you with it, please understand that they in no way represent any kind of significant majority. Both HMFC and its responsible supporters have always treated this subject with great humility and respect - never attempting to assume some kind of moral high ground and always welcoming anyone from any background who wants to share in the act of Remembrance. My God, they lost the finest team in their history - all lads in the prime of their youth. How could any decent, reasonable football supporter make that a reason for point-scoring? Those who endeavour to do so (on both sides of the divide) occupy a small and incredibly poorly informed minority.

As we move towards a series of centenaries of the Great War, this subject will be discussed more frequently. I can assure you that at any event organised by the McCrae's Battalion Trust, due acknowledgement will (as always) be given to all participants in the story. And, whether at Contalmaison or Haymarket, you are all welcome to join in anything we do. Anyone who's interested in learning more about the subject can wait until the re-launch of our (I hope) impressive new website - or (alternatively) contact me directly through this forum.

Thank you again for reading this.

[number 27]

Fair enough, thanks to Mr Alexander for a considered and mostly dignified response. There is not much in there I would disagree with at all. I might humbly suggest that if his original letter had adopted this tone then this whole debate would not have happened. I would also suggest that he is a little naïve to suggest that only a small minority of Hearts fans have used the whole affair as a points scoring exercise. Nevertheless I would be happy to draw a line under the debate and wish Mr Alexander good fortune with his endeavours. I also apologise for not using paragraphs-I cant seem to do it on here-is that just me?

[Jack Alexander]

Fair enough, thanks to Mr Alexander for a considered and mostly dignified response. There is not much in there I would disagree with at all. I might humbly suggest that if his original letter had adopted this tone then this whole debate would not have happened. I would also suggest that he is a little naïve to suggest that only a small minority of Hearts fans have used the whole affair as a points scoring exercise. Nevertheless I would be happy to draw a line under the debate and wish Mr Alexander good fortune with his endeavours. I also apologise for not using paragraphs-I cant seem to do it on here-is that just me?

Thanks for responding, number 27. It's not possible to have a long and discursive letter published in the press. But I think Mo's somewhat overwrought reaction caused folk to read things into it that were not intended. I'm concerned about misapprehensions regarding this subject. Whether a longer piece submitted to The Scotsman would help matters or simply stoke the fires is another question! But I'm grateful that you took the time to read and consider my posts.

The foundation of all the work I've done on the Great War is a desire to record and remember the sacrifice of the 'common' soldier. In McCrae's it didn't matter whether you were Hearts, Hibs, Raith, Falkirk or (God help you!) St Bernard's. We have to recognise the way those lads thought about their friends (who might also have been their footballing rivals) and try our best to reflect that tolerance and spirit of comradeship in our own consideration of the matter. The rivalry that exists between Hearts and Hibs is a fine old tradition. It's sad that bitterness and animosity has crept in over the past couple of decades. I would like to think that this is one area of the clubs' relationship where hostilities could be suspended. Whatever your loyalties, you should always shout down anyone who tries to score points by bringing up the Great War.

I have a photograph taken in front of the Cairn last year. Shortly before we arrived in the village a group of Edinburgh schoolchildren had paid a visit. Draped over the principal plaque (which, incidentally, mentions the role of Hibernian) were a Hibs scarf and a Hearts scarf intertwined. Nowhere else in Great Britain could such a gesture carry such profound and sad (and inspiring) emotions. If the oldest Derby rivals in the world can come together over a pile of Scottish stone in a French village, perhaps there's hope that their supporters might one day return to the unforgiving but friendly banter of old.

[Part/Time Supporter]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/hearts-accounts.1375289862

"The Lady Haig Poppy Factory in Edinburgh is owed £185. A spokeswoman stressed this was not a public donation that had not been handed over but an unpaid purchase from the factory, most likely to be a wreath."

(hat tip to keekaboo)

Any comments on this, Jack?

[Jack Alexander]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/hearts-accounts.1375289862

"The Lady Haig Poppy Factory in Edinburgh is owed £185. A spokeswoman stressed this was not a public donation that had not been handed over but an unpaid purchase from the factory, most likely to be a wreath."

(hat tip to keekaboo)

Any comments on this, Jack?

I have a fairly close working relationship with both PoppyScotland and the Lady Haig Poppy Factory. Among the wreaths we collected from them for Contalmaison this year was the official HMFC tribute. If there had been any outstanding debt at that time, the factory would not have supplied a wreath in the first place. Since the creditor document appeared today the Poppy Factory has apparently been in touch with BDO twice to point out that Hearts have no debt with them. It's likely that bearing in mind the size of the list (and it is indeed shamefully voluminous) there is considerable room for error - particularly the inclusion of old invoices that have since been paid. There are many reasons on the list to berate HMFC and (particularly their former owner) but diddling the Lady Haig Poppy Factory is not one of them. I might also point out that there's at least one other mistake. MB Trust is not owed £100; indeed Hearts settled all outstanding debts to us at the end of last year. We found in dealing with the Romanov regime a distinct reluctance to pay bills on time and a cavalier approach to maintaining any kind of good working relationship, but they usually paid eventually - which we took to reflect radically different business practices in the Eastern bloc.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Thanks for your response, but I'm not sure that clarifies why BDO believe that it is outstanding. I also don't think there was any suggestion that there was any debt outstanding before the November 2012 wreath was supplied. It would have been provided on the normal terms with the expectation that it would be paid for, albeit late. As you say, Romanov was never quick in paying bills, even when he was subsidising Hearts.

[Jack Alexander]

I understand your reservations, but LHPF have stated categorically today that HMFC have no outstanding debt. This is clearly an oversight on the part of the person who produced the document - a failure to update information. As I said earlier, they made the same mistake with MBT, whose small debt was settled (voluntarily and without reminders) as long ago as last December. Because of the unbelievable length and variety of the list I think there will be a few similar cases - particularly with regard to smaller sums that the former owners were infamous for paying very slowly.

[lapsedhibee]

The fact remains that in 1914 the enlistment of the Hearts players single-handedly prevented the entire sport of professional football from being stopped by the government. Large clubs - household names, especially in England - were carrying monstrous debts at the time. In many ways it was a similar picture to today. Overpaying players, investing in new ground facilities. In the event of compulsory stoppage of the game some of these clubs faced the threat of bankruptcy and extinction. Try to imagine the modern game without them! In another time, perhaps it might have fallen to the players of Orient - or, indeed, of Hibernian to take the action that the Hearts players felt pressurised to take. In that case I would have spent twelve years pursuing the story on their behalf.

It does not follow that because some well-known football clubs might have gone out of existence at that time, there would be no professional game today. Football can easily withstand the loss of a few well-known clubs. We've already seen what the "Armageddon" of Rangers' demise amounted to, and we're about to see the difference that the marvellous institution of HMFC going missing will make. (My prediction: none at all.)

[Bishop Hibee]

The whole idea of the First World War being glorious or a heroic sacrifice is rubbish. All it was was the British elite fighting the German elite over empire. It is sad that Working class people were conned by propaganda into participating in this carnage.

I visited the cemetries as a teenager and the scale sickened me and made clear to me the bruality of that war.

No glory in world war 1.

[Jack Alexander]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there - unless it's just another excuse to have a go at HMFC. At no point did I ever suggest that there would be no professional game today - merely that there's every chance that it would look profoundly different. In 1914 Hearts were universally credited with saving the professional game from that fate. It's not a matter of my opinion or your opinion. It's a matter of historical record. The 'Edinburgh Sensation' (as it was called), saved the game. All football supporters should be open-minded enough to give credit where credit's due - especially when many of the young men responsible for this went on to sacrifice not only their playing careers but their lives. As I tried to explain earlier in this thread, there are many reasons for Hibs and Hearts supporters to criticise and annoy each other. There's a huge embarrassment of choice. This is not a worthy reason for that kind of point scoring. It's cool for some of you to say that you would like Hearts to die. That's your choice. But just remember that on 1 July 1916 the players and supporters of the club already did that in their hundreds - trapped in front of the German wire and cut down by a cruel multiplicity of machine-guns. Alongside them that morning were players and supporters from many other East of Scotland football clubs - not least Hibernian.

[Hibercelona]

The whole idea of the First World War being glorious or a heroic sacrifice is rubbish. All it was was the British elite fighting the German elite over empire. It is sad that Working class people were conned by propaganda into participating in this carnage.

I visited the cemetries as a teenager and the scale sickened me and made clear to me the bruality of that war.

No glory in world war 1.

There's no real heroics in any war. Just governments using regular people as pawns to help fuel their greed for power.

You're fighting enemies of the government, not your own enemies. The government just use propaganda and politics as a front, to fool people into believing that their enemies are somehow your enemies as well.

There's really nothing honourable when it comes to war.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there - unless it's just another excuse to have a go at HMFC. At no point did I ever suggest that there would be no professional game today - merely that there's every chance that it would look profoundly different. In 1914 Hearts were universally credited with saving the professional game from that fate. It's not a matter of my opinion or your opinion. It's a matter of historical record. The 'Edinburgh Sensation' (as it was called), saved the game.

But it's not a matter of historical record, is it, that "there's every chance that [the professional game] would look profoundly different"? That's just your opinion. My opinion is that it would look much the same. If football had been stopped then, as parliament had intended, and some clubs had gone out of business, as you speculate, so what? It would all have started up again when the war finished. You've been trying to credit Hearts with SAVING FOOTBALL, which is as ridiculous as claiming that they won two world wars. On this site we at least realise that the 'won two world wars' thing is not serious.

[Jack Alexander]

The whole idea of the First World War being glorious or a heroic sacrifice is rubbish. All it was was the British elite fighting the German elite over empire. It is sad that Working class people were conned by propaganda into participating in this carnage.

I visited the cemetries as a teenager and the scale sickened me and made clear to me the bruality of that war.

No glory in world war 1.

Absolutely agree. But we can still be proud of the terrible sacrifice and of the traditions of comradeship and mateship that characterised the Kitchener battalions. The trick in commemorating the sacrifice is in avoiding glorification. Too often, large-scale events with their flag-waving and their distant dignitaries fail to reflect the simple spirit of remembrance that the dead deserve. I still find the Western Front inspiring, but also intensely sad.

[marinello59]

There's no real heroics in any war. Just governments using regular people as pawns to help fuel their greed for power.

You're fighting enemies of the government, not your own enemies. The government just use propaganda and politics as a front, to fool people into believing that their enemies are somehow your enemies as well.

There's really nothing honourable when it comes to war.
Take it you are a pacifist then?
How about the 2nd World War? Looks like the Goverment fooled a lot of people in to sacrificing their lives? Were they all mugs?

[Jack Alexander]

But it's not a matter of historical record, is it, that "there's every chance that [the professional game] would look profoundly different"? That's just your opinion. My opinion is that it would look much the same. If football had been stopped then, as parliament had intended, and some clubs had gone out of business, as you speculate, so what? It would all have started up again when the war finished. You've been trying to credit Hearts with SAVING FOOTBALL, which is as ridiculous as claiming that they won two world wars. On this site we at least realise that the 'won two world wars' thing is not serious.

You may not like it, but it is a matter of historical record. Go and look at the contemporary newspapers. I'm not crediting Hearts with saving football. It was the opinion of those people who were there at the time that they saved football. If that doesn't fit in with your peculiarly mean-minded world view, then it's hardly my fault.

[Pretty Boy]

There's no real heroics in any war. Just governments using regular people as pawns to help fuel their greed for power.

You're fighting enemies of the government, not your own enemies. The government just use propaganda and politics as a front, to fool people into believing that their enemies are somehow your enemies as well.

There's really nothing honourable when it comes to war.

World War 2?
The latter stages of the American Civil War?

[lapsedhibee]

You may not like it, but it is a matter of historical record. Go and look at the contemporary newspapers. I'm not crediting Hearts with saving football. It was the opinion of those people who were there at the time that they saved football. If that doesn't fit in with your peculiarly mean-minded world view, then it's hardly my fault.

You miss the point, entirely. However many people in 1914 had the opinion that Hearts were SAVING FOOTBALL, it is not - and I'll say this again, slowly - N O T a matter of historical record that Hearts saved football.

Supposing everyone in the world, at an earlier time, had the opinion that the earth was flat, and wrote this opinion down, do you think it is a matter of historical record that the earth was flat?

[Pretty Boy]

You may not like it, but it is a matter of historical record. Go and look at the contemporary newspapers. I'm not crediting Hearts with saving football. It was the opinion of those people who were there at the time that they saved football. If that doesn't fit in with your peculiarly mean-minded world view, then it's hardly my fault.

Surely as a historian Jack one has a responsibility to take a retrospective look at sources.

This isn't at all meant as a cheap dig at Hearts but to suggest they 'saved football' because it was reported in the contemporary press is a personal interpretation of source material.

It could just as easily be argued that whilst that was reported at the time, with the benefit of hindsight and reflection it is very unlikely that even if football had been stopped for the duration of the war that it would never have restarted or been radically different after the wars cessation.

Edit: As an example the press in 1916 reported the first day at The Somme as huge success, there's a very crass cartoon showing the fist of the British Army punching The Somme on the nose. Surely given decades of retrospect no on could argue this is accurate historical record because it was reported in the press?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Surely as a historian Jack one has a responsibility to take a retrospective look at sources.

This isn't at all meant as a cheap dig at Hearts but to suggest they 'saved football' because it was reported in the contemporary press is a personal interpretation of source material.

It could just as easily be argued that whilst that was reported at the time, with the benefit of hindsight and reflection it is very unlikely that even if football had been stopped for the duration of the war that it would never have restarted or been radically different after the wars cessation.

Exactly. National league football was stopped for the duration of the second war - some clubs ceased operations completely because their grounds were requisitioned for military purposes - yet there was no serious suggestion that football would not restart on the same basis as before.

[Jack Alexander]

Surely as a historian Jack one has a responsibility to take a retrospective look at sources.

This isn't at all meant as a cheap dig at Hearts but to suggest they 'saved football' because it was reported in the contemporary press is a personal interpretation of source material.

It could just as easily be argued that whilst that was reported at the time, with the benefit of hindsight and reflection it is very unlikely that even if football had been stopped for the duration of the war that it would never have restarted or been radically different after the wars cessation.

It's an interesting point and was considered by folk at the time. But government stoppage would have prevented football clubs from trading and therefore paying their debts until at least 1919. Five years - five wartime years - is a long time to mothball not only every professional club in the land but also the organisations responsible for running football, providing referees etc. It's also an interminably uncertain period for banks and other creditors to casually postpone the expectation of repayment. It's more complicated than simply resuming normal business.

[Dunderhall]

I have a fairly close working relationship with both PoppyScotland and the Lady Haig Poppy Factory. Among the wreaths we collected from them for Contalmaison this year was the official HMFC tribute. If there had been any outstanding debt at that time, the factory would not have supplied a wreath in the first place. Since the creditor document appeared today the Poppy Factory has apparently been in touch with BDO twice to point out that Hearts have no debt with them. It's likely that bearing in mind the size of the list (and it is indeed shamefully voluminous) there is considerable room for error - particularly the inclusion of old invoices that have since been paid. There are many reasons on the list to berate HMFC and (particularly their former owner) but diddling the Lady Haig Poppy Factory is not one of them.

Are you the same Jack Alexander on kickback who said the LHPF debt was paid in full by officers of McCrae's Battalion Trust.

If not then you should get in touch with them as someone is clearly misrepresenting you.

Image below has the thread and post info, not getting involved in the discussion, but it doesn't reflect how I interpret the above hence the post.
Apologies if I have misread the mixed messages if you are one and the same.

10758

[Jack Alexander]

Are you the same Jack Alexander on kickback who said the LHPF debt was paid in full by officers of McCrae's Battalion Trust.

If not then you should get in touch with them as someone is clearly misrepresenting you.

Image below has the thread and post info, not getting involved in the discussion, but it doesn't reflect how I interpret the above hence the post.
Apologies if I have misread the mixed messages if you are one and the same.

10758

We regularly settle our own accounts with LHPF and we included that payment in our most recent transaction. The MB Trust has since been reimbursed. The document that was published or leaked this morning clearly makes appalling reading for anyone connected to Heart of Midlothian. Some of the debts are truly dreadful. But the point I was making earlier is that it's also clearly a wee bit out-of-date. Neither LHPF nor MBT are owed a penny by the club. There are, however, a good few debts on the list that demand much greater online outrage and certainly scrutiny. Why Interpol aren't chasing after Mr Romanov with a pack of bloodhounds continues to baffle me.

[Mikey]

Fair play to Jack Alexander for coming on here tonight. He's been let down badly and has been left to pick up the pieces.

[CropleyWasGod]

We regularly settle our own accounts with LHPF and we included that payment in our most recent transaction. The MB Trust has since been reimbursed. The document that was published or leaked this morning clearly makes appalling reading for anyone connected to Heart of Midlothian. Some of the debts are truly dreadful. But the point I was making earlier is that it's also clearly a wee bit out-of-date. Neither LHPF nor MBT are owed a penny by the club. There are, however, a good few debts on the list that demand much greater online outrage and certainly scrutiny. Why Interpol aren't chasing after Mr Romanov with a pack of bloodhounds continues to baffle me.

The document was published, not leaked. I got it from Companies House, whose records are in the public domain.

As for its make-up, BDO acknowledge that it's not a full and final list. There will be others yet to be discovered, and some to be "adjudicated", which basically means proven. If the debts being discussed here are in fact paid, they will be removed.

[Pretty Boy]

It's an interesting point and was considered by folk at the time. But government stoppage would have prevented football clubs from trading and therefore paying their debts until at least 1919. Five years - five wartime years - is a long time to mothball not only every professional club in the land but also the organisations responsible for running football, providing referees etc. It's also an interminably uncertain period for banks and other creditors to casually postpone the expectation of repayment. It's more complicated than simply resuming normal business.

Fair enough, I think the back and forth arguments have been been exhausted on this thread so happy to leave it here.

Fair play to you for coming on here and defending your position in a pretty 'hostile' environment.

Probably worth us all remembering that Hibs and Hearts have always been well represented at Haymarket every November and long may that continue.

[marinello59]

Fair enough, I think the back and forth arguments have been been exhausted on this thread so happy to leave it here.

Fair play to you for coming on here and defending your position in a pretty 'hostile' environment.

Probably worth us all remembering that Hibs and Hearts have always been well represented at Haymarket every November and long may that continue.

:agree:

[GodisaHibee]

This whole thread should be stopped. It's disrespectful to millions who lost their lives that couldn't know the least thing about a handful of professional sportsmen, regardless of creed, who signed up.

No disrespect to those sportsmen that did, they made the ultimate sacrifice.

However, this thread, and the way it s going is a disgrace to the memory of those millions, their sacrifice and all for what?

Petty point scoring on both sides of what, at the end if the day, is a fairly pathetic exchange between rival groups, which on the grand scale of things will not be commemorated globally or given a fleeting mention in history.

Grow up the lot if you.

Rivalry between Hibs and Hearts is one thing.

I despise this horrible attempt, by both sides, to bring something as tragic as the loss for all sides, of a brutal conflict into something as mundane as this thread.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Jack Alexander]

Surely as a historian Jack one has a responsibility to take a retrospective look at sources.

This isn't at all meant as a cheap dig at Hearts but to suggest they 'saved football' because it was reported in the contemporary press is a personal interpretation of source material.

It could just as easily be argued that whilst that was reported at the time, with the benefit of hindsight and reflection it is very unlikely that even if football had been stopped for the duration of the war that it would never have restarted or been radically different after the wars cessation.

Edit: As an example the press in 1916 reported the first day at The Somme as huge success, there's a very crass cartoon showing the fist of the British Army punching The Somme on the nose. Surely given decades of retrospect no on could argue this is accurate historical record because it was reported in the press?

And you make a good point about the cartoon - which was a wicked misrepresentation of the blackest day in the history of the British Army - and (quite possibly) the blackest day in the history of both Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian. But the enlistment of the players is fundamentally different. The day before it happened, football was on the point of being stopped. The day after it happened, the anti-football movement was utterly defeated and crushed. Football was at that moment 'saved'. The evidence of the period is that this one small gesture by a group of young footballers had a contemporary effect that was far-reaching. Indeed I've often had cause to wonder if it's entirely fair to give the club quite so much credit, since it was the players who made the decision and the players who laid their careers and their lives on the line.

The question of how significant the long-term effect of that enlistment was is (in effect) the reason for this thread. And it's only something we can opine and speculate about. It's a good subject to discuss over a pint. I think on refection that the game would look substantially different - but of course no one under the age of (I dunno) 70 would notice the difference because the game that would have emerged after war-time stoppage would not be the same as the game that began the war. And that post-war version would be the game we'd all have grown up with. As I said in an earlier response, it's not quite as simple as resumption of normal business.

[ronaldo7]

One last question from me Jack.

Do you have any information on the subject of a white feather being sent to Hearts by a young Edinburgh wife who had lost her husband in the war, and did this have anything to do with the team signing up?

Thanks

[Jack Alexander]

One last question from me Jack.

Do you have any information on the subject of a white feather being sent to Hearts by a young Edinburgh wife who had lost her husband in the war, and did this have anything to do with the team signing up?

Thanks

Yes, indeed. The anti-football movement was incredibly well-orchestrated by a group of wealthy, highly motivated establishment figures who thought that professional sport was undermining the moral and physical health of the Empire's young men. It sounds like a Monty Python sketch until you visit the pages of contemporary newspapers and see the venom and the bile for yourself. They weren't above doctoring letters in the press written by soldiers at the front to include the odd pointed jibe against young men who preferred to idle at football matches rather than join up. In the middle of all this, ordinary folk who didn't fully understand the issues, or who had lost loved ones were unwittingly dragged into the controversy. On 16 November 1914 a pseudonymous letter-writer to the Evening News, 'Soldier's Daughter' (who may or may not have been a real person) wrote that while Hearts continue to play football, enabled thus to pursue their peaceful play by the sacrifice of the lives of thousands of their countrymen, they might adopt, temporarily, a nom de plume, say "The White Feathers of Midlothian"'

This was followed not long afterwards by the publication in the humorous patriotic magazine, Punch, of a cartoon lambasting a remarkably fit and prosperous young footballer for not seeking honour 'on a different kind of field'. The cartoon was cut out and sent to at least a couple of Hearts leading players - centre forward, Tom Gracie (who unbeknown to anyone was already dying of leukaemia) and captain, Bob Mercer, who had been crippled by a cruciate knee injury and would (in any case) have been unfit to serve. Notwithstanding that, the cartoon seems to have been instrumental in placing additional pressure on the players to 'do the right thing'. When young Jim Speedie volunteered to join the Cameron Highlanders, it had a galvanising effect on the rest of the squad and left them ready to accept Sir George's invitation to join his new battalion as (almost) the first volunteers.

Gracie and Speedie died in 1915. Duncan, Ernie, Harry and Jimmy died in 1916. John Allan died in 1917.

[The Green Goblin]

Hello Jack.

I have taken the time to read your posts on this thread carefully and in full and I appreciate the time you have taken to set out your arguments. I agree completely that this subject should be above petty footballing points scoring, however, I have only one "criticism", which (with the greatest of respect to yourself) is the timing of your sending your letter.

It seems to me that by choosing to send that letter at a time when the current Hearts Football Club were in the spotlight and under threat, while they were being rightly criticised for reckless overspending, dubious moral business practices, deliberately leaving creditors high and dry (including charities, the police, schools and many other public services) but at the same time shamelessly continuing their selfish mantra of saving only themselves and signing new players plus the never-ending arrogance from the fans who lapped it up while it all went on and became defiant in the face of being held to account etc. you went and brought the subject of the Pals Battalion into play and dropped it in the middle of the whole sorry mess.

It is clearly a subject which shouldn`t have been brought up anywhere near the current distasteful goings on. To do so seems a rather strange thing to do. The Hearts team of the Great War and all the other players and sportsmen who gave up their lives bears no relation to the Hearts of today and simply to create some kind of association between them by raising the topic at this particular time in this context is, I would contend, something of an insult to those whom your work of many years honours. I am not suggesting you did it deliberately, let me be clear on that, but I`m also not sure you had really thought it through and what you thought your letter would achieve to be honest. As a very well-known author of this book, you should have realised that whatever you wrote would garner disproportionate attention and be brought into the very unsavoury ongoing situation. Thus, in my humble opinion, your timing of sending such a letter was really quite ill-judged.

That`s my only issue with it, the timing. I have no disagreement with your other posts or anything you have written. Indeed, I think your research and writing on the Great War was badly needed. My own great-grandfather fought and survived on the Somme, Ypres and the 3rd Battle of Passchendale (Lord only knows how). It was he who brought up my own father, whose own enduring passion is his research into WW1 (I won`t name him, but he is a long time poster on the Great War Forum and you have met him a few times and would know him). I say this just to make it clear I have no other agendas, but I really do feel pretty strongly about the earlier points I made.

Anyway, all the best and thanks for your responses on this thread.

[ronaldo7]

Yes, indeed. The anti-football movement was incredibly well-orchestrated by a group of wealthy, highly motivated establishment figures who thought that professional sport was undermining the moral and physical health of the Empire's young men. It sounds like a Monty Python sketch until you visit the pages of contemporary newspapers and see the venom and the bile for yourself. They weren't above doctoring letters in the press written by soldiers at the front to include the odd pointed jibe against young men who preferred to idle at football matches rather than join up. In the middle of all this, ordinary folk who didn't fully understand the issues, or who had lost loved ones were unwittingly dragged into the controversy. On 16 November 1914 a pseudonymous letter-writer to the Evening News, 'Soldier's Daughter' (who may or may not have been a real person) wrote that while Hearts continue to play football, enabled thus to pursue their peaceful play by the sacrifice of the lives of thousands of their countrymen, they might adopt, temporarily, a nom de plume, say "The White Feathers of Midlothian"'

This was followed not long afterwards by the publication in the humorous patriotic magazine, Punch, of a cartoon lambasting a remarkably fit and prosperous young footballer for not seeking honour 'on a different kind of field'. The cartoon was cut out and sent to at least a couple of Hearts leading players - centre forward, Tom Gracie (who unbeknown to anyone was already dying of leukaemia) and captain, Bob Mercer, who had been crippled by a cruciate knee injury and would (in any case) have been unfit to serve. Notwithstanding that, the cartoon seems to have been instrumental in placing additional pressure on the players to 'do the right thing'. When young Jim Speedie volunteered to join the Cameron Highlanders, it had a galvanising effect on the rest of the squad and left them ready to accept Sir George's invitation to join his new battalion as (almost) the first volunteers.

Gracie and Speedie died in 1915. Duncan, Ernie, Harry and Jimmy died in 1916. John Allan died in 1917.

Thanks for that Jack.

Just seen an article in the Guardian in which it mentions "The White Feathers of Midlothian". http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/nov/13/hearts

It seems it tipped some of the team over the edge to sign up.

[The Green Goblin]

Edit / Addition: In the interests of adding to my previous argument about the timing being the issue, you may have noted that HMFC`s creditors include the British Red Cross. The Poppy fund money which was apparently settled by a fan (by his own admission on the Hearts fans forum) was done so presumably because of his conscience and that the implications of "shafting" that particular organisation were (rightly) too embarrassing and reprehensible to contemplate.

[Jack Alexander]

Hello Jack.

I have taken the time to read your posts on this thread carefully and in full and I appreciate the time you have taken to set out your arguments. I agree completely that this subject should be above petty footballing points scoring, however, I have only one "criticism", which (with the greatest of respect to yourself) is the timing of your sending your letter.

It seems to me that by choosing to send that letter at a time when the current Hearts Football Club were in the spotlight and under threat, while they were being rightly criticised for reckless overspending, dubious moral business practices, deliberately leaving creditors high and dry (including charities, the police, schools and many other public services) but at the same time shamelessly continuing their selfish mantra of saving only themselves and signing new players plus the never-ending arrogance from the fans who lapped it up while it all went on and became defiant in the face of being held to account etc. you went and brought the subject of the Pals Battalion into play and dropped it in the middle of the whole sorry mess.

It is clearly a subject which shouldn`t have been brought up anywhere near the current distasteful goings on. To do so seems a rather strange thing to do. The Hearts team of the Great War and all the other players and sportsmen who gave up their lives bears no relation to the Hearts of today and simply to create some kind of association between them by raising the topic at this particular time in this context is, I would contend, something of an insult to those whom your work of many years honours. I am not suggesting you did it deliberately, let me be clear on that, but I`m also not sure you had really thought it through and what you thought your letter would achieve to be honest. As a very well-known author of this book, you should have realised that whatever you wrote would garner disproportionate attention and be brought into the very unsavoury ongoing situation. Thus, in my humble opinion, your timing of sending such a letter was really quite ill-judged.

That`s my only issue with it, the timing. I have no disagreement with your other posts or anything you have written. Indeed, I think your research and writing on the Great War was badly needed. My own great-grandfather fought and survived on the Somme, Ypres and the 3rd Battle of Passchendale (Lord only knows how). It was he who brought up my own father, whose own enduring passion is his research into WW1 (I won`t name him, but he is a long time poster on the Great War Forum and you have met him a few times and would know him). I say this just to make it clear I have no other agendas, but I really do feel pretty strongly about the earlier points I made.

Anyway, all the best and thanks for your responses on this thread.

Thanks for your thoughtful response - not least because it raises a really interesting point about perception. Particularly the different perceptions of folk who inhabit substantially different environments.

I can see perfectly where you're coming from and I can see why you (and others) might have thought my timing was in some way inappropriate. But you're football supporters who love your club - to whom the issues you mention above are current and (quite clearly) painful. But while you guys are understandably preoccupied by these (and related) matters, I'm not. Doesn't make me insenstitive; it just means that I'm a historian who's spent much of the past few months intensely preoccupied by something entirely removed from your experience. Something that's receiving a wee bit of publicity now, but hasn't really been much in the public domain until very recently - namely the centenaries of the Great War.

As the person who's responsible for organising commemorative events relating to McCrae's and, incidentally, ensuring that all participating groups are fairly acknowledged, the enlistment of the players in 1914 is as current and important to me as the rights and wrongs of the Hearts insolvency issue is to you guys. That was the context of my short missive to The Scotsman. If the timing was perceived as poor, it was certainly not intended to be so. I could put it this way. The timing of Hearts collapse is potentially catastrophic for MBT's efforts to ensure that Edinburgh properly commemorates its fallen sons. Look at the bitterness on this thread and you can immediately see how hard it's going to be to get everyone in the city behind the various events that we have in mind. I can't stop trying to ensure the battalion is remembered just because a minor war has broken out between some Hibs and Hearts supporters.

Your perception of my timing and my perception of my timing are different. But no slight or provocation was intended. I'd like to think that a lot of Hibs supporters who've reads this thread might now be more disposed towards attending and supporting MBT events than previously. Maintaining public interest in something that happened a hundred years ago is incredibly hard - especially if you don't have a decent budget. I hope that our various plans for the next five years come to fruition and I hope that if they do, we'll have Hibs and their supporters involved at every level. I'll no doubt go over to JKB now and find someone slagging me off for being too solicitous to the opposition, but (as I keep repeating) this subject is way too important for petty point scoring. In 1914 Glasgow's recruiting officer offered the Old Firm players the opportunity to form a footballers' battalion identical to McCrae's. No one came forward. Edinburgh has good reason to mourn the loss of the boys who joined Sir George, but we also have good reason to be proud of them. The jersey doesn't matter when you're all wearing the same khaki tunic.

[The Green Goblin]

Thanks for your thoughtful response - not least because it raises a really interesting point about perception. Particularly the different perceptions of folk who inhabit substantially different environments.

I can see perfectly where you're coming from and I can see why you (and others) might have thought my timing was in some way inappropriate. But you're football supporters who love your club - to whom the issues you mention above are current and (quite clearly) painful. But while you guys are understandably preoccupied by these (and related) matters, I'm not. Doesn't make me insenstitive; it just means that I'm a historian who's spent much of the past few months intensely preoccupied by something entirely removed from your experience. Something that's receiving a wee bit of publicity now, but hasn't really been much in the public domain until very recently - namely the centenaries of the Great War.

As the person who's responsible for organising commemorative events relating to McCrae's and, incidentally, ensuring that all participating groups are fairly acknowledged, the enlistment of the players in 1914 is as current and important to me as the rights and wrongs of the Hearts insolvency issue is to you guys. That was the context of my short missive to The Scotsman. If the timing was perceived as poor, it was certainly not intended to be so. I could put it this way. The timing of Hearts collapse is potentially catastrophic for MBT's efforts to ensure that Edinburgh properly commemorates its fallen sons. Look at the bitterness on this thread and you can immediately see how hard it's going to be to get everyone in the city behind the various events that we have in mind. I can't stop trying to ensure the battalion is remembered just because a minor war has broken out between some Hibs and Hearts supporters.

Your perception of my timing and my perception of my timing are different. But no slight or provocation was intended. I'd like to think that a lot of Hibs supporters who've reads this thread might now be more disposed towards attending and supporting MBT events than previously. Maintaining public interest in something that happened a hundred years ago is incredibly hard - especially if you don't have a decent budget. I hope that our various plans for the next five years come to fruition and I hope that if they do, we'll have Hibs and their supporters involved at every level. I'll no doubt go over to JKB now and find someone slagging me off for being too solicitous to the opposition, but (as I keep repeating) this subject is way too important for petty point scoring. In 1914 Glasgow's recruiting officer offered the Old Firm players the opportunity to form a footballers' battalion identical to McCrae's. No one came forward. Edinburgh has good reason to mourn the loss of the boys who joined Sir George, but we also have good reason to be proud of them. The jersey doesn't matter when you're all wearing the same khaki tunic.

Thanks for that Jack. We are in agreement on this about the points you raise, not least about the importance of remembering the terrible events of a hundred years ago. I just wanted to voice my own perception of why there may have been a negative reaction to your letter. I didn`t think you intended any slight or provocation nor do I believe for a second that you were being insensitive and I, like many other fans of different clubs and people who also have little interest in football do support the work of the MBT. Best wishes for its continuing success.

[Lester B]

Just like to add my thanks to Jack for coming on here and taking the time and effort to discuss this subject at length. For what it's worth I do think that some Hearts fans do make too much of this but glad to see sanity breaking out here.

Can we change the Thread title now please????

[PatHead]

Thanks for your thoughtful response - not least because it raises a really interesting point about perception. Particularly the different perceptions of folk who inhabit substantially different environments.

I can see perfectly where you're coming from and I can see why you (and others) might have thought my timing was in some way inappropriate. But you're football supporters who love your club - to whom the issues you mention above are current and (quite clearly) painful. But while you guys are understandably preoccupied by these (and related) matters, I'm not. Doesn't make me insenstitive; it just means that I'm a historian who's spent much of the past few months intensely preoccupied by something entirely removed from your experience. Something that's receiving a wee bit of publicity now, but hasn't really been much in the public domain until very recently - namely the centenaries of the Great War.

As the person who's responsible for organising commemorative events relating to McCrae's and, incidentally, ensuring that all participating groups are fairly acknowledged, the enlistment of the players in 1914 is as current and important to me as the rights and wrongs of the Hearts insolvency issue is to you guys. That was the context of my short missive to The Scotsman. If the timing was perceived as poor, it was certainly not intended to be so. I could put it this way. The timing of Hearts collapse is potentially catastrophic for MBT's efforts to ensure that Edinburgh properly commemorates its fallen sons. Look at the bitterness on this thread and you can immediately see how hard it's going to be to get everyone in the city behind the various events that we have in mind. I can't stop trying to ensure the battalion is remembered just because a minor war has broken out between some Hibs and Hearts supporters.

Your perception of my timing and my perception of my timing are different. But no slight or provocation was intended. I'd like to think that a lot of Hibs supporters who've reads this thread might now be more disposed towards attending and supporting MBT events than previously. Maintaining public interest in something that happened a hundred years ago is incredibly hard - especially if you don't have a decent budget. I hope that our various plans for the next five years come to fruition and I hope that if they do, we'll have Hibs and their supporters involved at every level. I'll no doubt go over to JKB now and find someone slagging me off for being too solicitous to the opposition, but (as I keep repeating) this subject is way too important for petty point scoring. In 1914 Glasgow's recruiting officer offered the Old Firm players the opportunity to form a footballers' battalion identical to McCrae's. No one came forward. Edinburgh has good reason to mourn the loss of the boys who joined Sir George, but we also have good reason to be proud of them. The jersey doesn't matter when you're all wearing the same khaki tunic.

Must admit that I do take an interest in WW1. 2 of my great grandfathers died at Arras. In 1979 my father took my grandmother to see her father's grave for the first time. I will never forget seeing her reaction and emotions at the time. My ancestor's had no attachment to any football club but their factory/neighbourhood sacrifices were every bit as great as any football club. Personally I find it crass the way that Hearts have hijacked the notion that they are in some way special. They did what they should have done and paid a terrible price. It doesn't make their sacrifice any greater than anyone else. I think this is the point that you miss which annoys other club's supporters.

[Jack Alexander]

Must admit that I do take an interest in WW1. 2 of my great grandfathers died at Arras. In 1979 my father took my grandmother to see her father's grave for the first time. I will never forget seeing her reaction and emotions at the time. My ancestor's had no attachment to any football club but their factory/neighbourhood sacrifices were every bit as great as any football club. Personally I find it crass the way that Hearts have hijacked the notion that they are in some way special. They did what they should have done and paid a terrible price. It doesn't make their sacrifice any greater than anyone else. I think this is the point that you miss which annoys other club's supporters.

But Hearts as a club have never claimed to be special.

Any careful examination of the club's record in this matter will see all shades of attitude ranging from unexpected neglect through to impressive commitment tempered at all times with extreme humility. But they've never claimed or expected special credit. Everyone I've ever dealt with at Tynecastle is absolutely aware of how delicate this subject is - not least because it's vital to retain the respect of the general public for the club's sacrifice. If HMFC started behaving differently, then I wouldn't work with them. At the moment there's no reason to suppose that anything will change, but an early meeting will be sought with the new owners (assuming Hearts survive) in an effort to guage their thinking on the matter.

The folk who are annoying you, Pat, equally annoy the decent, more 'traditional' Hearts majority who remain defiantly proud but who recognise only too well that other teams lost players and supporters, too. You have no idea the unpublicised trouble I've had from ill-informed nutters who resent the introduction of Raith, Falkirk and Hibs to a story that they are convinced is Hearts 'property'. But I mix in Hearts circles a lot and I don't observe a large number of these types. I do think, however, that a lot of them enjoy trolling the internet and baiting the opposition on a wide range of subjects, including the two world wars. Note also that in spite of our best efforts to the contrary, the Scottish press still insist on treating this consistently as a 'Hearts' story. I hope when our website is re-launched we'll be able to get our message across more effectively.

[Miguel]

But Hearts as a club have never claimed to be special.

Any careful examination of the club's record in this matter will see all shades of attitude ranging from unexpected neglect through to impressive commitment tempered at all times with extreme humility. But they've never claimed or expected special credit. Everyone I've ever dealt with at Tynecastle is absolutely aware of how delicate this subject is - not least because it's vital to retain the respect of the general public for the club's sacrifice. If HMFC started behaving differently, then I wouldn't work with them. At the moment there's no reason to suppose that anything will change, but an early meeting will be sought with the new owners (assuming Hearts survive) in an effort to guage their thinking on the matter.

The folk who are annoying you, Pat, equally annoy the decent, more 'traditional' Hearts majority who remain defiantly proud but who recognise only too well that other teams lost players and supporters, too. You have no idea the unpublicised trouble I've had from ill-informed nutters who resent the introduction of Raith, Falkirk and Hibs to a story that they are convinced is Hearts 'property'. But I mix in Hearts circles a lot and I don't observe a large number of these types. I do think, however, that a lot of them enjoy trolling the internet and baiting the opposition on a wide range of subjects, including the two world wars. Note also that in spite of our best efforts to the contrary, the Scottish press still insist on treating this consistently as a 'Hearts' story. I hope when our website is re-launched we'll be able to get our message across more effectively.

My grand-father survived the battlefields of both World Wars.
For a period after the latter, he was a chain smoker and alcoholic. He recovered and lived into his 80s. Like many of that generation, he never spoke of the horrors he had seen, but he did explain why he had joined up. In the Second, he wanted to 'do his bit' against fascism, giving up a good and steady job to volunteer. In the First, he said he did so, aged 21, because he essentially didn't have a pot to piss in. It was an attempt to escape the horrible poverty of the Old Town, perhaps encouraged by a sense of adventure and probably by the white feather jingoism of the time. He came back, luckily, four years later, to much the same grinding poverty he had left, one of the 'lions led by donkeys'. I feel uncomfortable about glorifying that war in any way. The ordinary people who died were victims of the system and died for nothing, just as they continue to be today. I haven't read Jack's book, so can't comment on his views of the war. I think sections of the Hearts community have tried to 'piggy back' on this and, unfortunately, it does have a sectarian undertone. This is replicated in Glasgow: the reason there was such low enlistment there was that many Rangers people were in 'reserved occupations' in shipyards which were run along sectarian lines, while many Catholics refused to join out of sympathy with the concurrent struggle in Ireland. Attempts to claim ownership of suffering are replicated there: loyalists make great play of the 'sacrifice' made by members of the original Ulster Volunteer Force, which did suffer horribly. Catholic Irishmen who fought in similarly huge numbers are ignored by both sides: by 'loyalists' and 'republicans' because it does not suit their prejudices. I wear a poppy to mourn brave men of whatever persuasion who were conned into taking part in that unnecessary bloodbath, but have nothing but contempt for those who seek to portray their deaths as some kind of glorious sacrifice: it was not. It was a tragedy, whether they were Hearts, Hibs, Catholic or Protestant. After reading this thread, I will read Jack's book in the hope it portrays these aspects.

[Kato]

You may not like it, but it is a matter of historical record. Go and look at the contemporary newspapers. I'm not crediting Hearts with saving football. It was the opinion of those people who were there at the time that they saved footbal.


So it was their opinion. That doesn't make it fact just because they were there. Its another opinion from an age of propaganda and hyperbole. You can pick and choose which opinion from the time to lean on, as you have done, but you can't portray it as fact. Chances are football would be exactly the same - how would it be any different?

Are you going to call everyone who disagrees with you "mean minded"?

[Bostonhibby]

Must admit that I do take an interest in WW1. 2 of my great grandfathers died at Arras. In 1979 my father took my grandmother to see her father's grave for the first time. I will never forget seeing her reaction and emotions at the time. My ancestor's had no attachment to any football club but their factory/neighbourhood sacrifices were every bit as great as any football club. Personally I find it crass the way that Hearts have hijacked the notion that they are in some way special. They did what they should have done and paid a terrible price. It doesn't make their sacrifice any greater than anyone else. I think this is the point that you miss which annoys other club's supporters.

:agree:This part aside, I can actually see where Jack is coming from.

Events of yesterday surrounding the creditors list and with the Batallion Trust and the poppy appeal being amongst those the football club (not the fans) bumped could galvanise the views of fans of other clubs even more about the hyprocrisy of this one, and joe public who isn't interested in football must be wondering - they have certainly treated both charities in a unique way this time around, no other right thinking club having bumped them - fair play to the hearts fan that put his hand in his pocket to pay some of this off, like to think most of us would have done the same.

[Leith Mo]

It is with interest that I have read Jack Alexander's numerous responses on this thread which I originally started in response to his ridiculous letter to the Scotsman.

I would point out that I too am an Honours History graduate and have published numerous historical articles in various publications, and Mr Alexander is not the sole repository of "historical truth." I am also a frequent visitor to the battlefields of France and Flanders.

I have never met the man, I welcome his on-going contribution to the debate but to accuse my response to his ill-thought out and ill-timed letter to the Scotsman of being "overwrought" and "inspired by anger" (amongst other accusations) is a direct insult. The man wrote garbage in his letter, and has come on here and tried to justify it.

I suggest Jack you take the time to re-read your published letter (without Maroon-tinted glasses and dispassionately) and then think if you read my response and my introduction to it you may change your opinion.

RIP to all who died, regardless of footballing or other persuasion, but please, stop usurping their memory for your own ends.

[Keith_M]

But Hearts as a club have never claimed to be special.




Sadly, that's not the case. Hearts official website has used the history of McCraes Battalion to 'rally the troops' in a modern sense. They have cynically used that memory for their own ends.


As it turns out, it's entirely possible that the wreath laid on the Hearts Memorial last year was never paid for by the club.

[Kato]

There's statements on this thread that Hearts weren't in to the MBT or the Poppy fund but on the other thread there's reports of a generous Hearts fan paying these debts yesterday. Which one is it?

[clerriehibs]

I don't think it's disputed by anyone representing MBT that they aren't 'just' an HMFC thing. Non-HMFC people and organizations will contribute to their coffers.

Why, then, did MBT feel the need to try and clear the HMFC debt to Lady Haig Poppy Appeal?

Will they be settling for Lady Haig's other debtors? Won't be many, obviously, as doing the dirty on the Poppy Appeal isn't the done thing, but still.

Or were the independent MBT just trying to keep HMFC's name out of the mud?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Great to hear from Mr. Alexander, as always. :aok:

Can I ask, Jack, had it not been for Hearts, is it true that we'd all be playing baseball? (Joke :greengrin).

[Dunderhall]

We regularly settle our own accounts with LHPF and we included that payment in our most recent transaction. The MB Trust has since been reimbursed. The document that was published or leaked this morning clearly makes appalling reading for anyone connected to Heart of Midlothian. Some of the debts are truly dreadful. But the point I was making earlier is that it's also clearly a wee bit out-of-date. Neither LHPF nor MBT are owed a penny by the club. There are, however, a good few debts on the list that demand much greater online outrage and certainly scrutiny. Why Interpol aren't chasing after Mr Romanov with a pack of bloodhounds continues to baffle me.
No one is questioning your settlement of bills, but it was the HMFC account that was due to be settled with the LHPF, otherwise the amount would have been against the MT Trust.
It was good of you to make that settlement in lieu as you say, and commendable that a fan has since reimbursed the MT Trust.
it doesn't change the fact that the LHPF was due money from HMFC.

[clerriehibs]

No one is questioning your settlement of bills, but it was the HMFC account that was due to be settled with the LHPF, otherwise the amount would have been against the MT Trust.
It was good of you to make that settlement in lieu as you say, and commendable that a fan has since reimbursed the MT Trust.
it doesn't change the fact that the LHPF was due money from HMFC.



And, Jack, can we assume that all Lady Haig's debtors will have their accounts settled by the non-affiliated MBT?

Or are you linking MBT to HMFC, when you say it's the media that insist on keeping it that way?

[HibbySpurs]

Just to add my thanks to Jack for coming on here and putting his side across.

I find it almost impossible to find fault with anything he has said so I'm not going to try.

What is sad tho is the whole points scoring thing that has sprung up regarding hearts players service in the Great War, so many millions of lives extinguished so that 100 years on we could bicker over their sacrifices and try to score points.

This is one thing that should unite hibs & hearts fans IMO in pride that young men who played for both clubs were willing to lay down their lives foe their country.

Never again.

[lapsedhibee]

Can I ask, Jack, had it not been for Hearts, is it true that we'd all be playing baseball? (Joke :greengrin).

Think it's pretty clear that we wouldn't have been playing any sport at all. If Hearts hadn't saved football when they did, parliament might have got the bit between their teeth and banned all sport, to release any other shirkers for war service. Once you stop things they don't always start up again in exactly the same form as when they stopped, so it's a matter of historical record that Hearts saved The Ashes.

[Waxy]

It does not seem to me that football would have been stopped. How could they do that. More likely government threats to get football fans to sign up. Just a government recruitment trick to get people to fight a war that should not have been.

[andyf5]

You may not like it, but it is a matter of historical record. Go and look at the contemporary newspapers. I'm not crediting Hearts with saving football. It was the opinion of those people who were there at the time that they saved football. If that doesn't fit in with your peculiarly mean-minded world view, then it's hardly my fault.

Despite having read your book I was surprised by the facts stated in your original letter and went away to look up some of the things mentioned.

You are correct, from my reading of articles in newspapers of the time. In August 1914 there was a letter imploring Hearts and Hibs to stop football for the war - reference at "THOMAS D LUKE, M. D. (1914, Aug 26). THE WAR AND FOOTBALL. The Scotsman page 10." Moving forward to November 1914 the Hearts team volunteered en masse. Shortly after there was a meeting of the Football Clubs conference attended by Hibs representatives and other clubs. At this meeting Hearts are credited with "saving football" by their action - reference at "FOOTBALL CLUBS' CONFERENCE. (1914, Nov 27). The Scotsman page 5"

I have to admit to being irked sometimes by the attitude of some Hearts supporters but actually the contribution Hearts made to football by volunteering appears greater than I realised. I found your book a hard read but well researched - which explains the 12 years!

[degenerated]

World War 2?
The latter stages of the American Civil War?

The Spanish civil war too. :agree:

[andyf5]

The man wrote garbage in his letter, and has come on here and tried to justify it.



I'm not clear which bits you are saying is "garbage"? I have a minor interest in history and my very brief research of the newspapers of the time substantiate what Jack says. Is it possible that we are reacting to current day attitudes of some Hearts supporters rather than ourselves looking objectively at the facts? My original intention was to find the facts to refute what was said by Jack but he appears right.

[HibbySpurs]

It is with interest that I have read Jack Alexander's numerous responses on this thread which I originally started in response to his ridiculous letter to the Scotsman.

I would point out that I too am an Honours History graduate and have published numerous historical articles in various publications, and Mr Alexander is not the sole repository of "historical truth." I am also a frequent visitor to the battlefields of France and Flanders.

I have never met the man, I welcome his on-going contribution to the debate but to accuse my response to his ill-thought out and ill-timed letter to the Scotsman of being "overwrought" and "inspired by anger" (amongst other accusations) is a direct insult. The man wrote garbage in his letter, and has come on here and tried to justify it.

I suggest Jack you take the time to re-read your published letter (without Maroon-tinted glasses and dispassionately) and then think if you read my response and my introduction to it you may change your opinion.

RIP to all who died, regardless of footballing or other persuasion, but please, stop usurping their memory for your own ends.

Mo,

I am no history buff so I'm not going to enter into the factual side of the debate but having read both Jack's & your posts I can understand now why you responded to the original letter as it seemed to imply that the Hearts team volunteering for service was in fact "the only show in town" and that no other footballer had signed up.

To be fair to Jack he has since come onto this forum and asserted numerous times that in fact players from several teams, Hibs included joined the battalion? He has also pointed out that Hibs are regulary involved in the services of rememberance and that wreaths are laid on behalf of our club.

To me the whole thing stems from the fact that the Hearts team were the first to sign up and as history regularly shows people always remember the firsts but seldom the seconds (Neil Armstrong will trip off peoples lips very easily but people will still struggle to give you Buzz Aldrin).

To describe his letter/work as garbage would also be a direct insult would it not? I feel you've been unfair here (based on what I have read & from what people say about his book).

Perhaps if both of you could have a reasoned debate about the subject there would be less need for insults to be thrown around.

At the end of the day though (and this is purely IMVHO) what Hearts, Hibs, Falkirk or Celtic players did during either World War should never be the subject of petty points scoring between football fans, it should be something we as people remember with humble respect and thanks towards every person who laid down their lives or served in both World Wars so that we can live in an age where the lesson seems to have been learnt by the world powers that war en masse only leads to dismay, destruction & catastrophe.

[lapsedhibee]

Despite having read your book I was surprised by the facts stated in your original letter and went away to look up some of the things mentioned.

You are correct, from my reading of articles in newspapers of the time. In August 1914 there was a letter imploring Hearts and Hibs to stop football for the war - reference at "THOMAS D LUKE, M. D. (1914, Aug 26). THE WAR AND FOOTBALL. The Scotsman page 10." Moving forward to November 1914 the Hearts team volunteered en masse. Shortly after there was a meeting of the Football Clubs conference attended by Hibs representatives and other clubs. At this meeting Hearts are credited with "saving football" by their action - reference at "FOOTBALL CLUBS' CONFERENCE. (1914, Nov 27). The Scotsman page 5"

Yes and in an equivalent publication over the last few months, if you care to look, you'll find that Hearts were self sufficient, that Wonga gave a million quid to Hearts FC, that Hearts have the best young players in the country, etc etc etc.

The point is not whether it's a fact that someone in 1914 said that Hearts were saving football - it's whether Hearts did IN FACT save football.

[HibbySpurs]

Yes and in an equivalent publication over the last few months, if you care to look, you'll find that Hearts were self sufficient, that Wonga gave a million quid to Hearts FC, that Hearts have the best young players in the country, etc etc etc.

The point is not whether it's a fact that someone in 1914 said that Hearts were saving football - it's whether Hearts did IN FACT save football.

The last point is probably impossible to answer with any degree of certainty? I would say that yes football would continue to have existed regardless of this so in essence no they did not save football as a sport but did they alter the then thinking towards it being an easy way of getting out of military service?

Can we say football would have been the sport it is today with 100% certainty? Probably not. It does however have to be accepted that the sport would most likely still be the number 1 proffesional sport in the UK today regardless of any teams going bust in 1914 (as I would think most would have reformed as Newco's after the hostilities)?

[EuanH78]

Yes and in an equivalent publication over the last few months, if you care to look, you'll find that Hearts were self sufficient, that Wonga gave a million quid to Hearts FC, that Hearts have the best young players in the country, etc etc etc.

The point is not whether it's a fact that someone in 1914 said that Hearts were saving football - it's whether Hearts did IN FACT save football.

C'mon now, BAnderson wasn't even a glint in the milkman's eye at the time. :wink:. True that any journalistic source used from any time may in actual fact be talking pish, imagine researching a book 100 years from now about Rangers demise and relying on Jabba's output for it.

Nevertheless, It's a sensitive issue and even though I have (and have said so in the past) misgivings about the way the whole thing is handled by Hearts, I think its best to maintain a dignified silence on the matter. The fact that Hearts (and a great number of their fans) completely miss the point of remembrance, turning it into a jingo-istic flag waving celebration of tragedy is entirely up to them. To challenge that, only causes the memory to be sullied further.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

It's the Hearts attitude towards it within the last decade that irks me. They themselves have milked it and used it for point-scoring, backed up by the faux outrage from their fans should someone not be sporting a poppy (prompting immediate research by them to find out if he's a catholic). It's crass.

[lapsedhibee]

The last point is probably impossible to answer with any degree of certainty? I would say that yes football would continue to have existed regardless of this so in essence no they did not save football as a sport but did they alter the then thinking towards it being an easy way of getting out of military service?

That's about the limit of what might reasonably be argued. To leap from there to 'Hearts' history is unique because they saved football' or 'without Hearts' actions in 1914 the current game would be radically different' isn't really to do anything more than illustrate typical yam delusions of grandeur - delusions with which we have become so wearyingly familiar over the last few years.

[Eyrie]

I went back and read the original letter from Mr Alexander to see what he actually said, rather than the interpretations being placed on it.


The current crisis at Tynecastle has generated a great deal of hyperbole. Hearts are routinely compared with Third Lanark, Airdrieonians, Gretna, Clydebank, Dunfermline and the team formerly known as Rangers FC. Some observers would have us believe that the club is in imminent danger of liquidation.

There is, however, one fundamental difference between Hearts and these other troubled combinations which most observers have failed to mention. Heart of Midlothian remain the only football club in Great Britain whose fame is not solely founded on honours won on the sporting field. Next year sees the centenary of the voluntary enlistment of a squad of idealistic young Hearts players in a battalion of Lord Kitchener’s New Army. Their sacrifice single-handedly prevented the sport of professional football from being “stopped” by Herbert Asquith’s government.

In 2016 we will commemorate the centenary of the destruction of that magnificent battalion in one tragic hour on the Somme. Growing up in Scotland in the 1960s I used to wonder at the open affection displayed towards Hearts throughout the country. Prospective investors in the club must be made aware of the unique historical significance of this great Scottish institution.

Without Hearts, professional football as we know it would not exist.

Jack Alexander
McCrae’s Battalion Trust
He starts with the Yams current financial crisis, and then makes an immediate unprompted and unnecessary link to the Yams squad (but not of anyone else) signing up for the slaughter in the trenches which he then suggests should be used to encourage potential saviours of the Yams to come forward before finally making the bold claim that professional football as we know it would not exist.

1 - Jack is clearly writing as a Yam, and is entitled to write letters hoping that his club can be rescued. We rallied to the cause when it was our club in jeopardy.
2 - The events of almost hundred years ago have no relevance to a financial crisis that his club has created itself over the last twenty years and which its fans backed fully.
3 - Likewise any investor in the 21st century will be looking at the current position and their emotional involvement will be based on modern factors (eg growing up a Yam). All of us on this thread respect the sacrifices made by those players who chose to sign up but that does not mean that their club gets a free pass for ever.
4 - I find it difficult to believe that professional football would not have restarted after the war had finished. Some clubs may have disappeared for ever and others may have folded before being restarted, but there would still be professional football in the modern era. Indeed, given the time elapsed and the changes brought about in the last twenty years by TV money, it is more realistic to state that the current position would be very similar and the only difference would be a few names.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

I went back and read the original letter from Mr Alexander to see what he actually said, rather than the interpretations being placed on it.


He starts with the Yams current financial crisis, and then makes an immediate unprompted and unnecessary link to the Yams squad (but not of anyone else) signing up for the slaughter in the trenches which he then suggests should be used to encourage potential saviours of the Yams to come forward before finally making the bold claim that professional football as we know it would not exist.

1 - Jack is clearly writing as a Yam, and is entitled to write letters hoping that his club can be rescued. We rallied to the cause when it was our club in jeopardy.
2 - The events of almost hundred years ago have no relevance to a financial crisis that his club has created itself over the last twenty years and which its fans backed fully.
3 - Likewise any investor in the 21st century will be looking at the current position and their emotional involvement will be based on modern factors (eg growing up a Yam). All of us on this thread respect the sacrifices made by those players who chose to sign up but that does not mean that their club gets a free pass for ever.
4 - I find it difficult to believe that professional football would not have restarted after the war had finished. Some clubs may have disappeared for ever and others may have folded before being restarted, but there would still be professional football in the modern era. Indeed, given the time elapsed and the changes brought about in the last twenty years by TV money, it is more realistic to state that the current position would be very similar and the only difference would be a few names.

Spot on.

[andyf5]

I went back and read the original letter from Mr Alexander to see what he actually said, rather than the interpretations being placed on it.

4 - I find it difficult to believe that professional football would not have restarted after the war had finished. Some clubs may have disappeared for ever and others may have folded before being restarted, but there would still be professional football in the modern era. Indeed, given the time elapsed and the changes brought about in the last twenty years by TV money, it is more realistic to state that the current position would be very similar and the only difference would be a few names.

I agree with your 4th point. Checking Hansard Jack is correct in that the closing of all professional football grounds in the UK was mentioned in the House of Commons on 26 November 1914. The dialogue is here http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1914/nov/26/government-action#S5CV0068P0_19141126_HOC_148 Reading some of the other material of the period it does seem that the attitude of the population (press?) was that football should not be played when there is a war on and the actions of Hearts reduced the clamour.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I went back and read the original letter from Mr Alexander to see what he actually said, rather than the interpretations being placed on it.


He starts with the Yams current financial crisis, and then makes an immediate unprompted and unnecessary link to the Yams squad (but not of anyone else) signing up for the slaughter in the trenches which he then suggests should be used to encourage potential saviours of the Yams to come forward before finally making the bold claim that professional football as we know it would not exist.

1 - Jack is clearly writing as a Yam, and is entitled to write letters hoping that his club can be rescued. We rallied to the cause when it was our club in jeopardy.
2 - The events of almost hundred years ago have no relevance to a financial crisis that his club has created itself over the last twenty years and which its fans backed fully.
3 - Likewise any investor in the 21st century will be looking at the current position and their emotional involvement will be based on modern factors (eg growing up a Yam). All of us on this thread respect the sacrifices made by those players who chose to sign up but that does not mean that their club gets a free pass for ever.
4 - I find it difficult to believe that professional football would not have restarted after the war had finished. Some clubs may have disappeared for ever and others may have folded before being restarted, but there would still be professional football in the modern era. Indeed, given the time elapsed and the changes brought about in the last twenty years by TV money, it is more realistic to state that the current position would be very similar and the only difference would be a few names.

Eg Kings Park / Stirling Albion either side of World War II. The only bomb dropped on Stirling during that war landed on Kings Park's ground! They ceased operations but were replaced by Stirling Albion after the war.

[Mr White]

Seems to be fair to say that hearts players enlisting in 1914 did have a meaningful influence on the sport continuing through the war. However, to state that the club itself "single handedly" saved the game of professional football as we know it ("without hearts professional football as we know it would not exist") is over stating things to say the least. I agree with posters who have criticised the use of ww1 remembrance for petty point scoring from both sides- its in very poor taste and that includes this thread title IMO.

[--------]

I went back and read the original letter from Mr Alexander to see what he actually said, rather than the interpretations being placed on it.

The current crisis at Tynecastle has generated a great deal of hyperbole. Hearts are routinely compared with Third Lanark, Airdrieonians, Gretna, Clydebank, Dunfermline and the team formerly known as Rangers FC. Some observers would have us believe that the club is in imminent danger of liquidation.

There is, however, one fundamental difference between Hearts and these other troubled combinations which most observers have failed to mention. Heart of Midlothian remain the only football club in Great Britain whose fame is not solely founded on honours won on the sporting field. Next year sees the centenary of the voluntary enlistment of a squad of idealistic young Hearts players in a battalion of Lord Kitchener’s New Army. Their sacrifice single-handedly prevented the sport of professional football from being “stopped” by Herbert Asquith’s government.

In 2016 we will commemorate the centenary of the destruction of that magnificent battalion in one tragic hour on the Somme. Growing up in Scotland in the 1960s I used to wonder at the open affection displayed towards Hearts throughout the country. Prospective investors in the club must be made aware of the unique historical significance of this great Scottish institution.

Without Hearts, professional football as we know it would not exist.

Jack Alexander
McCrae’s Battalion Trust

He starts with the Yams current financial crisis, and then makes an immediate unprompted and unnecessary link to the Yams squad (but not of anyone else) signing up for the slaughter in the trenches which he then suggests should be used to encourage potential saviours of the Yams to come forward before finally making the bold claim that professional football as we know it would not exist.

1 - Jack is clearly writing as a Yam, and is entitled to write letters hoping that his club can be rescued. We rallied to the cause when it was our club in jeopardy.
2 - The events of almost hundred years ago have no relevance to a financial crisis that his club has created itself over the last twenty years and which its fans backed fully.
3 - Likewise any investor in the 21st century will be looking at the current position and their emotional involvement will be based on modern factors (eg growing up a Yam). All of us on this thread respect the sacrifices made by those players who chose to sign up but that does not mean that their club gets a free pass for ever.
4 - I find it difficult to believe that professional football would not have restarted after the war had finished. Some clubs may have disappeared for ever and others may have folded before being restarted, but there would still be professional football in the modern era. Indeed, given the time elapsed and the changes brought about in the last twenty years by TV money, it is more realistic to state that the current position would be very similar and the only difference would be a few names.


Totally agree with your four points.

I can understand JA's concern for the possible/probable/imminent demise of Heart of Midlothian FC (point 1). I sympathise - or I would, if the surrounding circumstances were different.

I'm impressed by his concern for the reputation and good name of the club, but I wonder where he and those "decent" Hearts supporters have been hiding throughout the Robinson and Romanov years of overspend, debt, lies and arrogance. One might suggest that Hearts' demise would be less disgraceful and demeaning to the memory of those who died in the Great War than their continuing existence as the money-laundering con-men of Scottish football (point 2).

Potential investors will inevitably be mainly interested in what they can make out of their investment. This is the bottom line of any investment process - what has to be put into a concern to acquire it balanced against the profits to be gained after the concern has been acquired. No room for sentiment in business, and there's an awful lot of people owed money by this club whose fame now, I fear, rests mainly on the size and scope of its owner's financial misbehaviour (point 3).

The suggestion which is clearly present in the passage you quote - JA's own words - that somehow the British Government would have banned the profession game in the UK sine die, and that the Hearts players' enlistment SINGLE-HANDEDLY prevented this, is unhistorical claptrap.

The idea being put forward - widely supported at the time - was that professional sports of all kinds should be suspended for the duration of the War, not an unreasonable proposal in view of the fact that some professional sportsmen had already volunteered to serve in the Armed Forces while others were continuing in their peacetime civilian occupation. That was the point of my reference to W G Grace and county cricket in my first post on this thread. The future of professional sport - football, cricket, whatever - was NEVER in danger. the debate related to the appropriateness of continuing to play professional sport while the War continued (point 4).

As for "hyperbole", his claim the McCrae's was "wiped out" within an hour of going into action is a good example. Many battalions suffered appreciably higher losses than McCrae's on the first day of the Somme. McCrae's suffered heavy casualties, but so did every other battalion engaged that day. The tragedy isn't one confined to one battalion and one football club, but the tragedy of a whole army of young men committed to battle in circumstances that would inevitably lead to the deaths of huge numbers.

And his claim that without McCrae's professional football as we know it wouldn't exist is more hyperbole - the proposal was that professional sport should cease for the duration of hostilities, nothing more.

I too have an Honours degree in history, and I'm more than a bit of an anorak regarding the military and naval of the 20th century. (Though I have to say that neither of these things is necessary to understand this particular piece of Edinburgh history.) And like many here I have family connections with both World Wars. Because my family came from Edinburgh and Leith, those connections are mainly with the Royal Scots, though NOT with McCrae's. the fact that McCrae's was the 16th Battalion Royal Scots should tell us something - it wasn't even the only battalion of that regiment serving on the Western Front in July 1916, and as I keep saying, it was no different from any other Pals' battalion of Kitchener's Army.

The constant harping on about the alleged uniqueness of this battalion's sacrifice and the special history of Heart of Midlothian FC is insulting to the memory of those from the city who served in the Great War but not in McCrae's. The underlying agenda is that somehow those Hearts footballers were special and that their service meant something more than that of others. Well, they weren't, and it didn't.

As JA himself says - when you're all wearing khaki, the colour of the shirt doesn't matter. So why single out one battalion - again and again and again - for praise, to the disadvantage of so many others?

(Apologies for length.)

[Leith Mo]

Spot on Doddie - exactly why I responded to the historical inaccuracies and jingoistic Jamboism in the first place. I also noted that in one of his earlier repsonses (hidden amongst his insults towards me and misinterpretation of why I replied to his letter in the first place) JA actaully claims "I am not a Hearts fan" - yet on Keeckback he is a "Premium Member" - I'll take that comment in the same vein as his original letter.

As I have said many times - RIP to all who served and died but his belittling of the others who died (eg implying that the Hearts players were special simply because others were no longer officially employed by their respective clubs when dying on active service) really betrays their memory and is typical usurpation of historical memory when the facts are very different indeed.

[Just Alf]

Seems to be fair to say that hearts players enlisting in 1914 did have a meaningful influence on the sport continuing through the war. However, to state that the club itself "single handedly" saved the game of professional football as we know it ("without hearts professional football as we know it would not exist") is over stating things to say the least. I agree with posters who have criticised the use of ww1 remembrance for petty point scoring from both sides- its in very poor taste and that includes this thread title IMO.

To be fair, they did single handedly save professional footy!

The reality was that many, many players of teams up and down the country had signed up, they were one of the very few teams (can't find evidence of any others mind) that NONE of their players had signed up. A wife of someone who'd died at the front wrote a letter to the Scotsman saying the Hearts team should all wear white feathers as part of their strip, this reflected public opinion regarding "professional" sport at the time.

The result was that the entire Hearts team signed up to the Macrae Battalion along with the rest of the players from Raith Rovers, Dunfermline and Hibs (many had already signed up from those teams) in addition many of the fans also signed up to fight alongside their sporting idols.

As we know many, many of the Macrea's died (including 3 of 4 brothers, the survivor being my great grandad, all were Hibees, 2 were farmers and had already been given dispensation as their work was seen as key to the war effort).

It's ironic they sometimes wear a white strip now a days but if they hadn't followed public opinion then professional sport may have been mortally wounded.

The saddest thing in all this, is that many young men were probably "pushed" into a position where they had to sign up and ended up losing their lives.

[Just Alf]

Ps apologies if this has already been covered but on phone so it's difficult to catch up and this situation had a significant impact on my family

[Mr White]

To be fair, they did single handedly save professional footy!

The reality was that many, many players of teams up and down the country had signed up, they were one of the very few teams (can't find evidence of any others mind) that NONE of their players had signed up. A wife of someone who'd died at the front wrote a letter to the Scotsman saying the Hearts team should all wear white feathers as part of their strip, this reflected public opinion regarding "professional" sport at the time.

The result was that the entire Hearts team signed up to the Macrae Battalion along with the rest of the players from Raith Rovers, Dunfermline and Hibs (many had already signed up from those teams) in addition many of the fans also signed up to fight alongside their sporting idols.

As we know many, many of the Macrea's died (including 3 of 4 brothers, the survivor being my great grandad, all were Hibees, 2 were farmers and had already been given dispensation as their work was seen as key to the war effort).

It's ironic they sometimes wear a white strip now a days but if they hadn't followed public opinion then professional sport may have been mortally wounded.

The saddest thing in all this, is that many young men were probably "pushed" into a position where they had to sign up and ended up losing their lives.
that still sounds like a contributing action rather than the single handed action its being described as here tbh.

[Just Alf]

that still sounds like a contributing action rather than the single handed action its being described as here to me tbh.

Aye, was a bit tongue in cheek to be fair..... Rest isn't tho

[Mr White]

Aye, was a bit tongue in cheek to be fair..... Rest isn't tho

:aok:

[lapsedhibee]

JA actaully claims "I am not a Hearts fan" - yet on Keeckback he is a "Premium Member" - I'll take that comment in the same vein as his original letter.

Yes. 'I am not a yam though I move in yam circles.' Time to stand up at one of those self-help group meetings and be like 'I'm Jack Alexander and I'm a yam'.

[lapsedhibee]

Seems to be fair to say that hearts players enlisting in 1914 did have a meaningful influence on the sport continuing through the war. However, to state that the club itself "single handedly" saved the game of professional football as we know it ("without hearts professional football as we know it would not exist") is over stating things to say the least. I agree with posters who have criticised the use of ww1 remembrance for petty point scoring from both sides- its in very poor taste and that includes this thread title IMO.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the thread title. There's a fine history in the UK of lampooning the deluded (Hogarth etc).


Totally agree with your four points.

I can understand JA's concern for the possible/probable/imminent demise of Heart of Midlothian FC (point 1). I sympathise - or I would, if the surrounding circumstances were different.

I'm impressed by his concern for the reputation and good name of the club, but I wonder where he and those "decent" Hearts supporters have been hiding throughout the Robinson and Romanov years of overspend, debt, lies and arrogance. One might suggest that Hearts' demise would be less disgraceful and demeaning to the memory of those who died in the Great War than their continuing existence as the money-laundering con-men of Scottish football (point 2).

Potential investors will inevitably be mainly interested in what they can make out of their investment. This is the bottom line of any investment process - what has to be put into a concern to acquire it balanced against the profits to be gained after the concern has been acquired. No room for sentiment in business, and there's an awful lot of people owed money by this club whose fame now, I fear, rests mainly on the size and scope of its owner's financial misbehaviour (point 3).

The suggestion which is clearly present in the passage you quote - JA's own words - that somehow the British Government would have banned the profession game in the UK sine die, and that the Hearts players' enlistment SINGLE-HANDEDLY prevented this, is unhistorical claptrap.

The idea being put forward - widely supported at the time - was that professional sports of all kinds should be suspended for the duration of the War, not an unreasonable proposal in view of the fact that some professional sportsmen had already volunteered to serve in the Armed Forces while others were continuing in their peacetime civilian occupation. That was the point of my reference to W G Grace and county cricket in my first post on this thread. The future of professional sport - football, cricket, whatever - was NEVER in danger. the debate related to the appropriateness of continuing to play professional sport while the War continued (point 4).

As for "hyperbole", his claim the McCrae's was "wiped out" within an hour of going into action is a good example. Many battalions suffered appreciably higher losses than McCrae's on the first day of the Somme. McCrae's suffered heavy casualties, but so did every other battalion engaged that day. The tragedy isn't one confined to one battalion and one football club, but the tragedy of a whole army of young men committed to battle in circumstances that would inevitably lead to the deaths of huge numbers.

And his claim that without McCrae's professional football as we know it wouldn't exist is more hyperbole - the proposal was that professional sport should cease for the duration of hostilities, nothing more.

I too have an Honours degree in history, and I'm more than a bit of an anorak regarding the military and naval of the 20th century. (Though I have to say that neither of these things is necessary to understand this particular piece of Edinburgh history.) And like many here I have family connections with both World Wars. Because my family came from Edinburgh and Leith, those connections are mainly with the Royal Scots, though NOT with McCrae's. the fact that McCrae's was the 16th Battalion Royal Scots should tell us something - it wasn't even the only battalion of that regiment serving on the Western Front in July 1916, and as I keep saying, it was no different from any other Pals' battalion of Kitchener's Army.

The constant harping on about the alleged uniqueness of this battalion's sacrifice and the special history of Heart of Midlothian FC is insulting to the memory of those from the city who served in the Great War but not in McCrae's. The underlying agenda is that somehow those Hearts footballers were special and that their service meant something more than that of others. Well, they weren't, and it didn't.

As JA himself says - when you're all wearing khaki, the colour of the shirt doesn't matter. So why single out one battalion - again and again and again - for praise, to the disadvantage of so many others?

(Apologies for length.)

Great stuff :agree:

[--------]

To be fair, they did single handedly save professional footy!

The reality was that many, many players of teams up and down the country had signed up, they were one of the very few teams (can't find evidence of any others mind) that NONE of their players had signed up. A wife of someone who'd died at the front wrote a letter to the Scotsman saying the Hearts team should all wear white feathers as part of their strip, this reflected public opinion regarding "professional" sport at the time.

The result was that the entire Hearts team signed up to the Macrae Battalion along with the rest of the players from Raith Rovers, Dunfermline and Hibs (many had already signed up from those teams) in addition many of the fans also signed up to fight alongside their sporting idols.

As we know many, many of the Macrea's died (including 3 of 4 brothers, the survivor being my great grandad, all were Hibees, 2 were farmers and had already been given dispensation as their work was seen as key to the war effort).

It's ironic they sometimes wear a white strip now a days but if they hadn't followed public opinion then professional sport may have been mortally wounded.

The saddest thing in all this, is that many young men were probably "pushed" into a position where they had to sign up and ended up losing their lives.


The truth is that many 'volunteers' to Kitchener's Army were there because of the moral pressure, even blackmail, of older people in their communities. This doesn't in any way detract from their courage or sense of duty, but I'm really uncomfortable with the way in which events like the mustering of McCrae's can be mythologised and made into something they clearly were not.

I read somewhere (can't remember where but maybe it'll come back to me) that soldiers home on leave who took the opportunity to get back into civvy clothes for a few days would be accused of cowardice and handed white feathers.

It's also a fact that after the men had gone over the top during an attack the MPs (who never went over the top themselves) would patrol the trenches and anyone who was found there without an obvious wound was summarily executed on the spot.

Nor was it a good idea for a private soldier to arrive back at base hospital from the Casualty Clearing Station with a tag on your uniform saying 'neurasthenia' - the fancy name for shell-shock in 1916. In the British Army then 'neurasthenia' could be a very fatal disorder. Many of its victims died around 8 o'clock in the morning a few days after diagnosis.

Eventually many Army doctors took to calling it 'gas paralysis' - if you'd been gassed and couldn't move or speak, it wasn't your fault. If you were shell-shocked, you were liable to be considered a coward and shot. Of course 'gas paralysis' was nothing to do with the poison gas used by both sides in France - but the diagnosis saved a lot of lives, IMO.

"Dulci et decorum est pro patria mori"? Aye, right.

[Just Alf]

Totally agree with your four points.

I can understand JA's concern for the possible/probable/imminent demise of Heart of Midlothian FC (point 1). I sympathise - or I would, if the surrounding circumstances were different.

I'm impressed by his concern for the reputation and good name of the club, but I wonder where he and those "decent" Hearts supporters have been hiding throughout the Robinson and Romanov years of overspend, debt, lies and arrogance. One might suggest that Hearts' demise would be less disgraceful and demeaning to the memory of those who died in the Great War than their continuing existence as the money-laundering con-men of Scottish football (point 2).

Potential investors will inevitably be mainly interested in what they can make out of their investment. This is the bottom line of any investment process - what has to be put into a concern to acquire it balanced against the profits to be gained after the concern has been acquired. No room for sentiment in business, and there's an awful lot of people owed money by this club whose fame now, I fear, rests mainly on the size and scope of its owner's financial misbehaviour (point 3).

The suggestion which is clearly present in the passage you quote - JA's own words - that somehow the British Government would have banned the profession game in the UK sine die, and that the Hearts players' enlistment SINGLE-HANDEDLY prevented this, is unhistorical claptrap.

The idea being put forward - widely supported at the time - was that professional sports of all kinds should be suspended for the duration of the War, not an unreasonable proposal in view of the fact that some professional sportsmen had already volunteered to serve in the Armed Forces while others were continuing in their peacetime civilian occupation. That was the point of my reference to W G Grace and county cricket in my first post on this thread. The future of professional sport - football, cricket, whatever - was NEVER in danger. the debate related to the appropriateness of continuing to play professional sport while the War continued (point 4).

As for "hyperbole", his claim the McCrae's was "wiped out" within an hour of going into action is a good example. Many battalions suffered appreciably higher losses than McCrae's on the first day of the Somme. McCrae's suffered heavy casualties, but so did every other battalion engaged that day. The tragedy isn't one confined to one battalion and one football club, but the tragedy of a whole army of young men committed to battle in circumstances that would inevitably lead to the deaths of huge numbers.

And his claim that without McCrae's professional football as we know it wouldn't exist is more hyperbole - the proposal was that professional sport should cease for the duration of hostilities, nothing more.

I too have an Honours degree in history, and I'm more than a bit of an anorak regarding the military and naval of the 20th century. (Though I have to say that neither of these things is necessary to understand this particular piece of Edinburgh history.) And like many here I have family connections with both World Wars. Because my family came from Edinburgh and Leith, those connections are mainly with the Royal Scots, though NOT with McCrae's. the fact that McCrae's was the 16th Battalion Royal Scots should tell us something - it wasn't even the only battalion of that regiment serving on the Western Front in July 1916, and as I keep saying, it was no different from any other Pals' battalion of Kitchener's Army.

The constant harping on about the alleged uniqueness of this battalion's sacrifice and the special history of Heart of Midlothian FC is insulting to the memory of those from the city who served in the Great War but not in McCrae's. The underlying agenda is that somehow those Hearts footballers were special and that their service meant something more than that of others. Well, they weren't, and it didn't.

As JA himself says - when you're all wearing khaki, the colour of the shirt doesn't matter. So why single out one battalion - again and again and again - for praise, to the disadvantage of so many others?

(Apologies for length.)

Still on phone and trying to read all this.... The above post is spot on.

I really, really get upset when people use this time in history as a way to score points.
If I was to lower myself to certain other supporters around Edinburgh I'd say that Macraes saved Hearts, Not professional football/sport

[--------]

Still on phone and trying to read all this.... The above post is spot on.

I really, really get upset when people use this time in history as a way to score points.
If I was to lower myself to certain other supporters around Edinburgh I'd say that Macraes saved Hearts, Not professional football/sport


I'm coming to the opinion that the best thing to do is just ignore them, but when someone with the reputation of JA comes out with this sort of thing I rather feel one has to take notice, and the OP's response in the first instance was IMO completely justified and spot on the money.

[Mr White]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the thread title. There's a fine history in the UK of lampooning the deluded (Hogarth etc).

fair enough though in this context I think its inappropriate given the subject matter.

[Geo_1875]

From Mr Alexander's writings you would be forgiven for believing that Major (I used to be an MP) McRae and the hertz playing squad were slaughtered on the first day of the Somme. I understand that the Major reached the rank of Colonel, survived the war and returned to Parliament. Yes their entire team enlisted en masse and a number of their players died but I can't agree with the assertion that their contribution to the war was unique.