Hibs finances (merged)

[JeMeSouviens]

Thought it might be interesting to speculate in advance of this year's accounts and what affect it might have on next season's budget.

2011/12 was obviously pretty much a nightmare season and ended with a loss of ~£1M and an increase in net debt to £6.4M. So, on to last year:

Staff costs - I would think wage budget would've been roughly similar. We ought to have saved some money by not changing the coaching staff and having quite the same January panic window in an attempt to stay in the league. No idea how to put a number on it though. Random guess of +£100K.

League performance - Positive here, 4 places higher so prize money should be £300K better. Let's assume the lack of Huns affected SPL prize pool to some extent and call it +£250K. Average attendance up 600 = 11400 more bums on seats, at say £15 a head average to allow for concessions and VAT, that's +£170K. Overall +£420K.

Cup performance - League cup was awful, we had no home games vs 2 the prior year, 1 televised vs Celtic. So assume a drop here of £200K? Scottish cup was about as good as it could get without winning the bloody thing. Televised in all rounds, large home gates vs Yams and Sheep. Even versus prior run to final we must be up £400K? Overall +£200K.

Other factors - hospitality probably down due to lack of Huns, partially offset by cup ties? Very popular strip but no idea how the Puma deal worked.

Conclusion - I reckon there was a marked improvement and we might get near break even but were probably still bailed out a bit by a decent cup run. As with the football side, there's progress but plenty of room for improvement.

[sahib]

Thought it might be interesting to speculate in advance of this year's accounts and what affect it might have on next season's budget.

2011/12 was obviously pretty much a nightmare season and ended with a loss of ~£1M and an increase in net debt to £6.4M. So, on to last year:

Staff costs - I would think wage budget would've been roughly similar. We ought to have saved some money by not changing the coaching staff and having quite the same January panic window in an attempt to stay in the league. No idea how to put a number on it though. Random guess of +£100K.

League performance - Positive here, 4 places higher so prize money should be £300K better. Let's assume the lack of Huns affected SPL prize pool to some extent and call it +£250K. Average attendance up 600 = 11400 more bums on seats, at say £15 a head average to allow for concessions and VAT, that's +£170K. Overall +£420K.

Cup performance - League cup was awful, we had no home games vs 2 the prior year, 1 televised vs Celtic. So assume a drop here of £200K? Scottish cup was about as good as it could get without winning the bloody thing. Televised in all rounds, large home gates vs Yams and Sheep. Even versus prior run to final we must be up £400K? Overall +£200K.

Other factors - hospitality probably down due to lack of Huns, partially offset by cup ties? Very popular strip but no idea how the Puma deal worked.

Conclusion - I reckon there was a marked improvement and we might get near break even but were probably still bailed out a bit by a decent cup run. As with the football side, there's progress but plenty of room for improvement.

Figures air out of the plucking - rearrange.

[Hibbyradge]

Figures air out of the plucking - rearrange.

Speculate the did word see you?

[Centre Hawf]

Cup performance - League cup was awful, we had no home games vs 2 the prior year, 1 televised vs Celtic. So assume a drop here of £200K? Scottish cup was about as good as it could get without winning the bloody thing. Televised in all rounds, large home gates vs Yams and Sheep. Even versus prior run to final we must be up £400K? Overall +£200K.

to be honest i don't know any figures but i'd like to think we didn't lose 200k on the basis of two home games and one of them being on the BBC. We probably made about the same for the cup run as we did year on the basis we had 2 home games one of which sold out and 1 sold out away end.

Again i don't know any of the figures that float about in these situations.

[JohnStephens91]

to be honest i don't know any figures but i'd like to think we didn't lose 200k on the basis of two home games and one of them being on the BBC. We probably made about the same for the cup run as we did year on the basis we had 2 home games one of which sold out and 1 sold out away end.

Again i don't know any of the figures that float about in these situations.

We were 3000 short of capacity for the game against Hearts so not a sell-out match, although to get 17,052 into Easter Road is a great achievement.

I have no interest in speculating on the costs of the club, with regards to the whole thread though, especially as the figures haven't been released yet.

[fatbloke]

According to the bastion of reliable information that is jamboskickback some roaster claims that HOMOFC's situation has more implications for us than them. apparently we are £15million in debt and rising. What planet/drug/mind altering substance are they on in Grogie/Shighthill/Darly/Saucktin? and can I have some I think living a fantasy life might just be fun:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin.

[YehButNoBut]

Noticed the keekbackers have started a thread called "Hibs Debt", they do make me laugh, it seem to comfort them if others are in trouble as well.

£8 mil and rising at a rate of £2 mil a year.

Surely the press will be having a go at them next season for not having sporting integrity and having a squad they can't afford, tick tock.

In the mean time we will be debt free and building a new exciting team.


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Unless they can get a few million for Harris, they're not going to be far behind us.

To be fair, most Hobos I know are aware of this, hence why they're keeping hush on our situation (careful what you wish for etc). Deep down they're cacking it at the thought of lost Derby revenue.


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actually, hibs real debt is closer to £10million plus there is the fact that costs are rising and their gates are still falling. £2million shortfall is the tip of the iceberg. Any Farmer is refusing t underwrite any more debt for them.


http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/

[Pretty Boy]

Just when you thought they couldn't get any more ridiculous or ill informed.

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/#entry3661543

[Hibercelona]

Noticed the keekbackers have started a thread called "Hibs Debt", they do make me laugh, it seem to comfort them if others are in trouble as well.

£8 mil and rising at a rate of £2 mil a year.

Surely the press will be having a go at them next season for not having sporting integrity and having a squad they can't afford, tick tock.

In the mean time we will be debt free and building a new exciting team.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Unless they can get a few million for Harris, they're not going to be far behind us.

To be fair, most Hobos I know are aware of this, hence why they're keeping hush on our situation (careful what you wish for etc). Deep down they're cacking it at the thought of lost Derby revenue.


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actually, hibs real debt is closer to £10million plus there is the fact that costs are rising and their gates are still falling. £2million shortfall is the tip of the iceberg. Any Farmer is refusing t underwrite any more debt for them.


http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/

What they don't seem to grasp is that majority of our "debt" is mortgages on assets in which we own. In other words. We could sell our assets off and comfortably pay off our debt figure 3x over

All Hearts have is a big pile of pink tinted asbestos. Even if they flog that off to the highest bidder, they'll still have about £20,000,000 worth of debt!!

[Saorsa]

Noticed the keekbackers have started a thread called "Hibs Debt", they do make me laugh, it seem to comfort them if others are in trouble as well.

£8 mil and rising at a rate of £2 mil a year.

Surely the press will be having a go at them next season for not having sporting integrity and having a squad they can't afford, tick tock.

In the mean time we will be debt free and building a new exciting team.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Unless they can get a few million for Harris, they're not going to be far behind us.

To be fair, most Hobos I know are aware of this, hence why they're keeping hush on our situation (careful what you wish for etc). Deep down they're cacking it at the thought of lost Derby revenue.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


actually, hibs real debt is closer to £10million plus there is the fact that costs are rising and their gates are still falling. £2million shortfall is the tip of the iceberg. Any Farmer is refusing t underwrite any more debt for them.


http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/ :faf: :faf:

These fuds really are on another planet. They really are desperate, making up ***** that's as far from reality as they are and trying tae compare other clubs with their grubby little tax dodging and stealing club. ****in' roasters.

[hibby rae]

Noticed the keekbackers have started a thread called "Hibs Debt", they do make me laugh, it seem to comfort them if others are in trouble as well.

£8 mil and rising at a rate of £2 mil a year.

Surely the press will be having a go at them next season for not having sporting integrity and having a squad they can't afford, tick tock.

In the mean time we will be debt free and building a new exciting team.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Unless they can get a few million for Harris, they're not going to be far behind us.

To be fair, most Hobos I know are aware of this, hence why they're keeping hush on our situation (careful what you wish for etc). Deep down they're cacking it at the thought of lost Derby revenue.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


actually, hibs real debt is closer to £10million plus there is the fact that costs are rising and their gates are still falling. £2million shortfall is the tip of the iceberg. Any Farmer is refusing t underwrite any more debt for them.


http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/

I saw on an earlier post that our debt is nearer 6.5m, down from 17m about 10 years ago. Take into account that we finished our stadium ( 2nd biggest in the spl!) and built our own training complex, that's not bad going. I think we may have made an overall loss last year ( 180,000?) but I'd imagine we'll be better this year. No payment to a sacked manager, another great cup run which was televised in every round, European football and increased season ticket sales. Tick tock indeed Jambos!

[21.05.2016]

Jambos really are desperate aren't they? Let them give their "oh but but hibs are in debt too!" "hibs are goin bust" etc etc. obviously it is a small hope that they are hiding behind in order to make their situation feel better for them.

Desperate, cringeworthy and completely deluded.

[RCNG]

Just when you thought they couldn't get any more ridiculous or ill informed.

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/#entry3661543

Love this one. I'd love some kind of tv debate between .net and brokeback about the 2 clubs finance. Possibly to be aired on Comedy Central?


Taken from the thread above...

main
Today, 08:32
At the moment it looks like h1b5 are more likely to go bust than we are! #TickTock.

[R'Albin]

Just when you thought they couldn't get any more ridiculous or ill informed.

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/#entry3661543

God those ****ers really deserve to die.

[Gus Fring]

Courtesy of CraigieBoy


I'll never forget when Petrie did his 'rallying call' on their website last season. The next game they got about 350 more at the match.

And yet this season your rotten wee club needs as many people to buy season tickets as possible or you'll cease to exist and yet Hibs have still​ sold more!

[poolman]

It's in The HFC Ltd Financial Report for Year Ended 31/07/2012 - Net Debt was £ 6.4m [Loss of £ 0.5m from 2011]. The P & L Report showed Loss for Financial Year 2012 as £ 957,111 with 2011 being a Loss of £ 886,286.

The Yams have a great fixation that everything needs to be of epic proportions!

:lolyam:


No its not,its nearer £10m and its been doing the rounds in the Dundee Utd boardroom

This must be true cos its on Yakbak

[Humo]

Most of these inbred mutants think we are going to go bust before we are. They need to focus on their own debt instead of obsessing over ours. The difference is we have Farmer and Petrie, where is Mad Vlad?


http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/

[hibee92]

"Hibs are ******"

"how do you know that?"

"It's my job to know that!"

Priceless

[green day]

Aye, was about to post something similar. Apparently we are £10 mil in debt, losing £2 mil per year on top of our mortgages.

Despite one sensible person posting a link to the hibs website which shows the real figs, all the above is stated as FACT.

Apparently the groundshare would be OK with them - and clearly we would also welcome it.

Another Beezer was the FACT that we never bothered turning up for hands off hibs rallies, despite many of our pinkoid chums doing do.

Dearie me, revisionism is a word these fuds need to look up in the dictionary.

[Hibercelona]

If a jambo slapped his bird in the face, they'd all be blaming her for breaking the guys wrist.

[Jack Hackett]

If a jambo slapped his bird in the face, they'd all be blaming her for breaking the guys wrist.


A jambo with a bird?.......time to leave the pub :greengrin

[kdhibees1]

A jambo with a bird?.......time to leave the pub :greengrin Jambo maybe, Brokebacker - erm nah!!

[SaulGoodman]

At the moment it looks like h1b5 are more likely to go bust than we are! #TickTock.

They surely aren't being serious? :rolleyes:

[Hank Schrader]

All Kickback is renowned for is being the world wide webs largest collection of ****ers.

[Ozyhibby]

Latest post by 'southside1874' on the 'Hibs debt' thread on kickback has our debt at £18m and rising by £2m a year.
These are worrying times for our club. Petrie is going to have to radically cut costs. Time to shut the training centre and sell any player of value, maybe go part time or close Easter road and move in as tenants at the PBS.
Nightmare.

[BarneyK]

Latest post by 'southside1874' on the 'Hibs debt' thread on kickback has our debt at £18m and rising by £2m a year.
These are worrying times for our club. Petrie is going to have to radically cut costs. Time to shut the training centre and sell any player of value, maybe go part time or close Easter road and move in as tenants at the PBS.
Nightmare.

That is bad news. Anyone here any good at cup cakes?

[Springbank]

Latest post by 'southside1874' on the 'Hibs debt' thread on kickback has our debt at £18m and rising by £2m a year.
These are worrying times for our club. Petrie is going to have to radically cut costs. Time to shut the training centre and sell any player of value, maybe go part time or close Easter road and move in as tenants at the PBS.
Nightmare.

All those wee cup semi finals held at ER don't help I suppose

We really are so short sighted

[kdhibees1]

That is bad news. Anyone here any good at cup cakes? Nae good at baking, but can draw stickmen so may give the face painting a bash

[Hibercelona]

Apparently we're in more of a hole than they are and we're desperate to groundshare with them. :faf:

Talk about clutching at straws. :bitchy:

[Ozyhibby]

That is bad news. Anyone here any good at cup cakes?

No time. All this good drying weather recently means I'm flat out with the pegs.

[Pretty Boy]

Someone has now posted an accurate picture of our debt.

A response of 'Oh that's very little, I thought it was more than that tbh.'

Cue another post trying to 'reveal' another issue. That issue being 1st division clubs have more money than us, our youth set up (that recently humped their youth set up at almost all levels) is a joke and both these things are going to make PF walk away.

Words fail me.

[rcarter1]

Yam comparisons of our respective financial situations are ludicrous at best.

Nonetheless my understanding (from HFC official published figures) is that our net debt increased from 4.1 million to 6.4 million in two years (as of 2011/12). Thats 1.15 million per year increase in debt.

2012/13 will have suffered from TV revenue, gained slightly from attendances. I think wages were similar to last year, but have no idea of other costs etc.

What is unfortunate is that Hibs (and Aberdeen) seem to spend well over 3 million a year on operating costs over and above the wage bill (which is around 4-4.5 million or so for both clubs). Dundee Utd and Motherwell for example seem to spend about 2 million on operating costs (with wages of 3.5-4 million). Why we seem to need 1 million+ more than these clubs just to operate is beyond me, but reduces the competitive advantage that we would otherwise have from our larger attendances.

[Ozyhibby]

Someone has now posted an accurate picture of our debt.

A response of 'Oh that's very little, I thought it was more than that tbh.'

Cue another post trying to 'reveal' another issue. That issue being 1st division clubs have more money than us, our youth set up (that recently humped their youth set up at almost all levels) is a joke and both these things are going to make PF walk away.

Words fail me.

Spoilsport. That going to kill that thread and it had so much potential for amusement. Hope it wasn't one of us that put the real figures up.

[lucky]

I love that they think mortgages are debts in the same way as them not paying their tax bill. They clearly are deluded. I can't wait for administration just to help shut them up

[Tricla]

That thread just proves how eternally thick and deluded those nad lickers are.

A horrid, rotten club with horrid, rotten fans.

[Thecat23]

The penny has dropped with this guy. He won't be liked for saying this....


Very pleasing to learn that 1st division clubs are similar to Hibs in that each of them have at least £2,000,000 in the bank. Hibs most recent financial report shows them having a debt of £6,000,000 with a safety net of £2,000,000 banked cash available. At least Hibs are upfront by publishing detailed annual reports. How I wish we had their debt problems. Their debt is a mortgage on four new stands, while they purchased their East Mains training ground outright with cash. What do we have?. Oh yes, a delapidated main stand undeserving of a safety certificate, at least £25,000,000 debt,overdue rent on our training ground,dwindling inexperienced squad,minus 15 points this coming season,John Robertson,Foulkes,administration, and if this thread is anything to go by we are blessed with financially illiterate gullible ostrich like fans. For gods sake, waken up, smell the coffee. Considering the disgraceful way our club has been run, resulting in an inability to pay our creditors we should be the last to criticise any other football club in Scotland. Talk about pot,kettle,black! deary me.
Regards the alcohol quantities consumed by our rivals management team, who cares, it is irrelevant. If their youth set up is joke how can we explain recent dismal results against all of their youth teams.
Considering our club is in a self inflicted desperately critical state ,I feel ashamed when supporters and fans of our beloved institution seem to be in denial, by focussing attention on our main rivals via spouting inaccurate and unresearched drivel on this and other sites.
Believe me, time is running out,our great club is dying. Use your time and energies by focussing on us, not others.

[Hibercelona]

Someone has now posted an accurate picture of our debt.

A response of 'Oh that's very little, I thought it was more than that tbh.'

Cue another post trying to 'reveal' another issue. That issue being 1st division clubs have more money than us, our youth set up (that recently humped their youth set up at almost all levels) is a joke and both these things are going to make PF walk away.

Words fail me.

It's just 1 big hobo coverup conspiracy.

Our true debt figure of 500 million is still yet to be revealed. :agree:

[kdhibees1]

The penny has dropped with this guy. He won't be liked for saying this....


Very pleasing to learn that 1st division clubs are similar to Hibs in that each of them have at least £2,000,000 in the bank. Hibs most recent financial report shows them having a debt of £6,000,000 with a safety net of £2,000,000 banked cash available. At least Hibs are upfront by publishing detailed annual reports. How I wish we had their debt problems. Their debt is a mortgage on four new stands, while they purchased their East Mains training ground outright with cash. What do we have?. Oh yes, a delapidated main stand undeserving of a safety certificate, at least £25,000,000 debt,overdue rent on our training ground,dwindling inexperienced squad,minus 15 points this coming season,John Robertson,Foulkes,administration, and if this thread is anything to go by we are blessed with financially illiterate gullible ostrich like fans. For gods sake, waken up, smell the coffee. Considering the disgraceful way our club has been run, resulting in an inability to pay our creditors we should be the last to criticise any other football club in Scotland. Talk about pot,kettle,black! deary me.
Regards the alcohol quantities consumed by our rivals management team, who cares, it is irrelevant. If their youth set up is joke how can we explain recent dismal results against all of their youth teams.
Considering our club is in a self inflicted desperately critical state ,I feel ashamed when supporters and fans of our beloved institution seem to be in denial, by focussing attention on our main rivals via spouting inaccurate and unresearched drivel on this and other sites.
Believe me, time is running out,our great club is dying. Use your time and energies by focussing on us, not others.
Wow!! A sensible comment for a change. Bet he gets booted for it though! :rolleyes: Just realised it's his first post....oh well!

[ManBearPig]

The penny has dropped with this guy. He won't be liked for saying this....


Very pleasing to learn that 1st division clubs are similar to Hibs in that each of them have at least £2,000,000 in the bank. Hibs most recent financial report shows them having a debt of £6,000,000 with a safety net of £2,000,000 banked cash available. At least Hibs are upfront by publishing detailed annual reports. How I wish we had their debt problems. Their debt is a mortgage on four new stands, while they purchased their East Mains training ground outright with cash. What do we have?. Oh yes, a delapidated main stand undeserving of a safety certificate, at least £25,000,000 debt,overdue rent on our training ground,dwindling inexperienced squad,minus 15 points this coming season,John Robertson,Foulkes,administration, and if this thread is anything to go by we are blessed with financially illiterate gullible ostrich like fans. For gods sake, waken up, smell the coffee. Considering the disgraceful way our club has been run, resulting in an inability to pay our creditors we should be the last to criticise any other football club in Scotland. Talk about pot,kettle,black! deary me.
Regards the alcohol quantities consumed by our rivals management team, who cares, it is irrelevant. If their youth set up is joke how can we explain recent dismal results against all of their youth teams.
Considering our club is in a self inflicted desperately critical state ,I feel ashamed when supporters and fans of our beloved institution seem to be in denial, by focussing attention on our main rivals via spouting inaccurate and unresearched drivel on this and other sites.
Believe me, time is running out,our great club is dying. Use your time and energies by focussing on us, not others.

Doubt thats genuine jambo..... he makes too much sense and didnt mention 1902 once!!!

[Hibercelona]

My mate is a big Hibby and gets to go to certain hibs parties etc. I was out with him recently and he was telling me that first division clubs have more cash than hibs, the youth set up is a joke and wee Fenloan feels his hands are tied, and he may walk. This was directly from Fenloans number two who got too pished and let the cat out of the bag, before walking away and saying he had said too much. He did say wee fenloan could drink like a fish and walked away no probs after a session, being Hibs manager he will need that talent.

:faf:

[Hibercelona]

Doubt thats genuine jambo..... he makes too much sense and didnt mention 1902 once!!!

Posts: 1

Should give you a clue. :wink:

[Weir7]

The penny has dropped with this guy. He won't be liked for saying this....


Very pleasing to learn that 1st division clubs are similar to Hibs in that each of them have at least £2,000,000 in the bank. Hibs most recent financial report shows them having a debt of £6,000,000 with a safety net of £2,000,000 banked cash available. At least Hibs are upfront by publishing detailed annual reports. How I wish we had their debt problems. Their debt is a mortgage on four new stands, while they purchased their East Mains training ground outright with cash. What do we have?. Oh yes, a delapidated main stand undeserving of a safety certificate, at least £25,000,000 debt,overdue rent on our training ground,dwindling inexperienced squad,minus 15 points this coming season,John Robertson,Foulkes,administration, and if this thread is anything to go by we are blessed with financially illiterate gullible ostrich like fans. For gods sake, waken up, smell the coffee. Considering the disgraceful way our club has been run, resulting in an inability to pay our creditors we should be the last to criticise any other football club in Scotland. Talk about pot,kettle,black! deary me.
Regards the alcohol quantities consumed by our rivals management team, who cares, it is irrelevant. If their youth set up is joke how can we explain recent dismal results against all of their youth teams.
Considering our club is in a self inflicted desperately critical state ,I feel ashamed when supporters and fans of our beloved institution seem to be in denial, by focussing attention on our main rivals via spouting inaccurate and unresearched drivel on this and other sites.
Believe me, time is running out,our great club is dying. Use your time and energies by focussing on us, not others.
The 2 million isn't a safety net. Its season ticket money which is used to pay bills. Soon as you start to spend it the net debt figure goes up.

The actual debt figure is approx 8 mil.

Hibs finances aren't as rosey as people think. Operating loosses over last 5 years have been millions due to mismanagement by rod.

No players to sell means he can't balance the books.

[HibbySpurs]

The most hilarious thread on brokeback ever if you ask me. What a bunch of total roasters, they are the modern day equivalents of Caesar's fiddling whilst Rome burns.... At least one of them eventually had the decency to post the actual Hibs accounts and point out the debt is £6.5M including mortgages..... I fear for them though that this real information is not "pleasing"....... Total fuds the lot of them....... :yw:

[Hibercelona]

The 2 million isn't a safety net. Its season ticket money which is used to pay bills. Soon as you start to spend it the net debt figure goes up.

The actual debt figure is approx 8 mil.

Hibs finances aren't as rosey as people think. Operating loosses over last 5 years have been millions due to mismanagement by rod.

No players to sell means he can't balance the books.

The debt is approximately at 6.5 million (including mortgages). This is without taking season ticket money into consideration.

It's true that this figure could have been better if it wasn't due to bad choices made over the last several years. But honestly, it could have been so much worse.

[CropleyWasGod]

The 2 million isn't a safety net. Its season ticket money which is used to pay bills. Soon as you start to spend it the net debt figure goes up.

The actual debt figure is approx 8 mil.

Hibs finances aren't as rosey as people think. Operating loosses over last 5 years have been millions due to mismanagement by rod.

No players to sell means he can't balance the books.

The 2011 accounts were the first time we'd had a loss in 7 years. The loss that year was £900k, much the same as it was in 2012. Hardly "millions".

And, net debt doesn't go up when you spend money. If you're paying bills, the reduction in the bank balance is offset by the reduction in creditors.

[Thecat23]

The 2 million isn't a safety net. Its season ticket money which is used to pay bills. Soon as you start to spend it the net debt figure goes up.

The actual debt figure is approx 8 mil.

Hibs finances aren't as rosey as people think. Operating loosses over last 5 years have been millions due to mismanagement by rod.

No players to sell means he can't balance the books.

5 years? I think you will find that you have got pretty much most of this all wrong.

[LioNeilMessi]

The 2011 accounts were the first time we'd had a loss in 7 years.

Was Weir7 not meaning that the best part of £2m lost in the last couple of years outweighs the profit made from the previous three? I'm not up to date with Hibs' financial statements over the past few years so I don't know if it's true but that's how I interpreted it. Regardless, it's selective information fit for the tabloids :greengrin

[Weir7]

The 2011 accounts were the first time we'd had a loss in 7 years. The loss that year was £900k, much the same as it was in 2012. Hardly "millions".

And, net debt doesn't go up when you spend money. If you're paying bills, the reduction in the bank balance is offset by the reduction in creditors.

Opearting losses not losses I mentioned.

Cash in bank is season tick money not creditors. Its cash at bank.

Hibs FD also confirmed debt is 8m.

[Weir7]

5 years? I think you will find that you have got pretty much most of this all wrong.

Look at accounts there are operating losses

[Thecat23]

Look at accounts

Apologies if I've picked you up wrong. I genuinely thought after looking it was only £6.4m

I know you are saying its not rosy, but this debt is very much manageable for Hibs as it stands.

[Weir7]

Apologies if I've picked you up wrong. I genuinely thought after looking it was only £6.4m

I know you are saying its not rosy, but this debt is very much manageable for Hibs as it stands.

No probs mate.

The interest payments still take a chunk out the football budget. Be interesting if the operating losses have been wiped out for current financial year.

Is a concern for me if we had another high opearting losses. I'd be susprised if that was the case as a lot of costs have been taken out the business.

[rcarter1]

The operating loss is the difference between turnover and costs. :nerd:

Turnover is all money taken in by the club - but doesnt include money from selling players.
Costs is all money spent by the club - but doesnt include money spent on buying players.

On this basis Hibs have been operating at an operating loss for 5 years (to the tune of about 1.5+ million per year). The reason we have posted profit in the first three of these 5 years is due to £7.6 million made from player sales (2.9, 2.4 and 2.3 million for those years individually).

Now that we haven't sold players for very much the last two years (£1 million over the two years), our underlying operating loss is starting to bite.

RPs plan has been to make significant cash from player sales, while maintaining a high turnover from gate receipts etc.
Because weve been pretty gash, the plan has not worked very well, as we have lost revenue from the gate, and had few players to sell.

While we are still miles and miles away from administration, we are accumulating debt at an uneasy rate. The good news, is that performances are starting to improve - with the hope that gate receipts increase a bit, and at long last we seem to have some young players that could eventually command decent transfer fees (as well as improving the team of course).

[CropleyWasGod]

Opearting losses not losses I mentioned.

Cash in bank is season tick money not creditors. Its cash at bank.

Hibs FD also confirmed debt is 8m.

Football clubs are in an unusual position in that actual profits/losses are more important than operating ones. The sale of players can make a significant difference, and that is what has happened at Hibs. We have always been a selling club, as are most clubs, and I don't expect that to change.

It wasn't me that disagreed with your figure for debt.

On the ST money, you said that it's used to pay bills. If that's the case, as the money decreases, so does the amount of creditors built up by those bills; hence no increase in debt.
I thought that it's used to secure new contracts. In that event, as the money decreases, the value of the playing squad increases.

[Northernhibee]

Wow!! A sensible comment for a change. Bet he gets booted for it though! :rolleyes: Just realised it's his first post....oh well!

And the Brokebackers response to reality?

"Oh, but 5-1".

They sell a few hundred tickets and now all appears to be barry again with them. Cannae wait to see their smug faces drop when they realise that we were right all along :greengrin

I'm off to enjoy a debt free club. 10399

[Part/Time Supporter]

The operating loss is the difference between turnover and costs. :nerd:

Turnover is all money taken in by the club - but doesnt include money from selling players.
Costs is all money spent by the club - but doesnt include money spent on buying players.

On this basis Hibs have been operating at an operating loss for 5 years (to the tune of about 1.5+ million per year). The reason we have posted profit in the first three of these 5 years is due to £7.6 million made from player sales (2.9, 2.4 and 2.3 million for those years individually).

Now that we haven't sold players for very much the last two years (£1 million over the two years), our underlying operating loss is starting to bite.

RPs plan has been to make significant cash from player sales, while maintaining a high turnover from gate receipts etc.
Because weve been pretty gash, the plan has not worked very well, as we have lost revenue from the gate, and had few players to sell.

While we are still miles and miles away from administration, we are accumulating debt at an uneasy rate. The good news, is that performances are starting to improve - with the hope that gate receipts increase a bit, and at long last we seem to have some young players that could eventually command decent transfer fees (as well as improving the team of course).

True about the last couple of years, but the debt position is a hell of a lot better than it was (say) 10 years ago. Back then Hibs were £15M+ in debt and were considering selling the whole ER site to share a stadium with Hearts at Straiton. On top of that debt reduction they've built a training ground and completed the stadium.

The key as you say is to get the team performing well consistently, challenging (if not in) the European places and that will hopefully get regular attendance up above 10,000 (to give an average of say 12,000). That would allow them to get close to break-even with any losses being covered by the odd player sale.


No probs mate.

The interest payments still take a chunk out the football budget. Be interesting if the operating losses have been wiped out for current financial year.

Is a concern for me if we had another high opearting losses. I'd be susprised if that was the case as a lot of costs have been taken out the business.

The interest costs are relatively low because it is mostly in secured long term mortgage debt. The interest costs in 2011/12 were £150K on debt of £8M.

[Treadstone]

Was East Mains a good decision in the sense in isolation that a lot of the cash our player sales were generating at the time would have went to the treasury ?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Was East Mains a good decision in the sense in isolation that a lot of the cash our player sales were generating at the time would have went to the treasury ?

No, the tax losses brought forward would have covered those.

East Mains was a football decision; Mowbray moaned constantly about the lack of purpose-built facilities.

[rcarter1]

True about the last couple of years, but the debt position is a hell of a lot better than it was (say) 10 years ago. Back then Hibs were £15M+ in debt and were considering selling the whole ER site to share a stadium with Hearts at Straiton. On top of that debt reduction they've built a training ground and completed the stadium.

The key as you say is to get the team performing well consistently, challenging (if not in) the European places and that will hopefully get regular attendance up above 10,000 (to give an average of say 12,000). That would allow them to get close to break-even with any losses being covered by the odd player sale.

The interest costs are relatively low because it is in mostly secured long term mortgage debt and the soft loan from Farmer. The interest costs in 2011/12 were £150K on debt of £8M.

I didnt know that. Any idea of why our operating costs (excluding wages) are as high as they are? I thought interest might have been a major part, but it seems to cost 3.5-4 million to run the club. Dundee Utd can afford wage bills not far from our own because their operating costs seem to be closer to £2 million. Somehow it feels we arent getting the benefit our significantly larger fan base.

[Treadstone]

No, the tax losses brought forward would have covered those.

East Mains was a football decision; Mowbray moaned constantly about the lack of purpose-built facilities.

Cheers.

I think football wise its a great decision, just wondered if there was a glaring financial aspect to the project.

[jgl07]

Was Weir7 not meaning that the best part of £2m lost in the last couple of years outweighs the profit made from the previous three? I'm not up to date with Hibs' financial statements over the past few years so I don't know if it's true but that's how I interpreted it.

Aye if you ignore the building of the East Stand and West Mains. The East Stand construction should bring great financial benefit in the coming years with dramatically reduced maintenance costs and extra capacity.

Also the modest losses were run up during a major economic downturn affecting walk up numbers and season tickets sold.


Regardless, it's selective information fit for the tabloids :greengrin
Indeed it is. It is a rather Yamish approach I have to say.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I didnt know that. Any idea of why our operating costs (excluding wages) are as high as they are? I thought interest might have been a major part, but it seems to cost 3.5-4 million to run the club. Dundee Utd can afford wage bills not far from our own because their operating costs seem to be closer to £2 million. Somehow it feels we arent getting the benefit our significantly larger fan base.

I think that's mainly because it's more expensive to run a bigger club (bigger stadium, more fans to service, bigger youth system?) in a more expensive city (wages, rates). I think you pointed out that Aberdeen and Hibs were broadly comparable, with Motherwell and Dundee Utd being at the next level down in operating costs. That would sort of tie together.


Cheers.

I think football wise its a great decision, just wondered if there was a glaring financial aspect to the project.

I think the only financial aspect was that they had quite a lot of spare cash in 2006/07 after selling players and it was seen as being a good (long term) investment, rather than (say) running at a large trading loss for a few years.

[rcarter1]

I think that's mainly because it's more expensive to run a bigger club (bigger stadium, more fans to service, bigger youth system?) in a more expensive city (wages, rates). I think you pointed out that Aberdeen and Hibs were broadly comparable, with Motherwell and Dundee Utd being at the next level down in operating costs. That would sort of tie together.

Fair point, I suppose it could be as simple as that. Bit of a bummer if these costs aren't likely to reduce, and might explain why teams like us and Aberdeen have really struggled to perform consistently at the expectation level of our supporters. Should they survive, it will be refreshing to see Hearts compete in the face of these realities.

[thebakerboy]

I just like to think of it along side an average persons mortgage plus any Bank loan plus credit card debt. How many people would love the total of these to be less than their annual salary but as far as I can see this is a position our club is in , OUR DEBT IS LESS THAN OUR ANNUAL TURNOVER , is that not a comfortable position to be in and it is managed well by the Tache.

[rcarter1]

I just like to think of it along side an average persons mortgage plus any Bank loan plus credit card debt. How many people would love the total of these to be less than their annual salary but as far as I can see this is a position our club is in , OUR DEBT IS LESS THAN OUR ANNUAL TURNOVER , is that not a comfortable position to be in and it is managed well by the Tache.

Agree that his financial nouse has helped us keep a lid on spending, but reckon that his lack of football savvy has led to poor managerial appointments. We are making losses now due to lack of transfer fees, and lower than expected crowds - caused in part from poor performances.

I think/hope that the appointment of Pat Fenlon represents a positive learning curve for RP. (and Hibs a positive learning curve for Pat!).

[KWJ]

It's a tough call on picking a manager as it's under the spotlight and high pressure. He got a couple wrong and I'd say only Calderwood was a very bad choice although at the time I welcomed him despite the reservations. They are big decisions but you're not going to get them all right, if he had then I highly doubt Rodders would still be with us either, a bigger club would have poached him.

I reckon we're lucky to have the tache. Not perfect by any means but he's done us well.

[Jones28]

According to one of them, we are looking to close the training centre? What a load of utter horse **** that lot talk.

[matty_f]

According to one of them, we are looking to close the training centre? What a load of utter horse **** that lot talk.

:agree:

You're as well smacking an ape in the erse with a shovel and asking it which way is North as you are asking a Yam to talk sensibly about anything.

The ape's erse will be better looking too, pre and post-smack.:agree:

[R'Albin]

Surely this entire thing is just a poor attempt at winding us up? I honestly don't get how you can be that stupid.

[Kato]

Surely this entire thing is just a poor attempt at winding us up? I honestly don't get how you can be that stupid.

They aren't that clever or humourous. It's an attempt to make things "better" by lashing out. No doubt the domestic violence figures will see a rise too.

[7062]

I think that we should close sections of the ground if the crowds remain at 10/11,000. We could stick the away fans in the west upper for most games and only open the away end for hearts, celtc and maybe Aberdeen.

Not sure how much cash it would save though?

[jgl07]

I think that we should close sections of the ground if the crowds remain at 10/11,000. We could stick the away fans in the west upper for most games and only open the away end for hearts, celtc and maybe Aberdeen.

Not sure how much cash it would save though?

It would save bugger-all. The extra stewarding and police costs would wipe out the savings and end up costing more.

Apart from anything else the disruption to season ticket holders would be costly and annoy people.

The ground used to accommodate 25,000 and crowds of 3,000-4,000 were common. No-one suggested closing section then.

It was a pain when visiting fans were put in the South (Wing of the Main) Stand. If you were in the Centre Stand you could be held back for 20 minutes after a match.

Shoving the visiting support up at the top would also destroy atmosphere especially with the South Stand empty.

This is all negative yammish crap.

The focus should be on increasing crowds. You will not do that by messing around home supporters. It will be done by putting a winning team on the park and by innovating ticketing ideas.

[Hibercelona]

According to one of them, we are looking to close the training centre? What a load of utter horse **** that lot talk.

Obviously pish.

But perhaps not a bad idea? :tin hat:

[killie-hibby]

Wow!! A sensible comment for a change. Bet he gets booted for it though! :rolleyes: Just realised it's his first post....oh well!

:agree:
:top marks

[rcarter1]

Obviously pish.

But perhaps not a bad idea? :tin hat:

I think it is fair to consider this.

Hibs will no doubt have a good understanding of how much money we could save by not having to pay the admin/maintenance for East mains (and what the costs are for alternative). If it is then decided that it hasnt really helped us develop or improve us on the park, it becomes an option. I would prefer that the club found a really good way of generating revenue from the land.

Would fully understand if it was sold/rented - perhaps to Hearts for a new stadium.. :greengrin

If we save 300,000 per year, then this represents a couple of players, or a better scouting system, or whatever.

[greenlex]

I think it is fair to consider this.

Hibs will no doubt have a good understanding of how much money we could save by not having to pay the admin/maintenance for East mains (and what the costs are for alternative). If it is then decided that it hasnt really helped us develop or improve us on the park, it becomes an option. I would prefer that the club found a really good way of generating revenue from the land.

Would fully understand if it was sold/rented - perhaps to Hearts for a new stadium.. :greengrin

If we save 300,000 per year, then this represents a couple of players, or a better scouting system, or whatever.
The cost of runningnEast Mains was put at 100k.

[Keith_M]

Firstly, these threads on Kickback are not a windup, I firmly believe that some of them really ARE that stupid.

Second, although we are nowhere near any of their stupid predictions of impending doom (wishful thinking on their part), we do need to turn around the losses of the last two seasons and, if not make a profit, at least start breaking even every year. If Fenlon stays long enough and develops as a manager, there's no reason why we shouldn't start increasing income by improved performances on the pitch.

We've already had appeals to fans to buy more STs but I'm convinced the only thing that really brings in more people is a product worth watching, e.g. in the Mowbray and Collins seasons. We probably will have to rely to at least some extent on selling players in the long term. That's just the unfortunate reality of supporting any Scottish club.

[cocopops1875]

The cost of runningnEast Mains was put at 100k.

Sure someone suggested 500k

[Kato]

I think it is fair to consider this.

Hibs will no doubt have a good understanding of how much money we could save by not having to pay the admin/maintenance for East mains (and what the costs are for alternative). If it is then decided that it hasnt really helped us develop or improve us on the park, it becomes an option. I would prefer that the club found a really good way of generating revenue from the land.

Would fully understand if it was sold/rented - perhaps to Hearts for a new stadium.. :greengrin

If we save 300,000 per year, then this represents a couple of players, or a better scouting system, or whatever.

Any youth policy takes around 6 or 7 seasons to bare fruit. We are just now starting to see the benefit of having East Mains with the youngsters brought through last season and they are just the start. Closing East Mains down just as its starting to work (and under Fenlon its usage becoming more professional) seems a bit stupid, no?

That's putting aside its usage as a training ground for the first team.

[cocopops1875]

Any youth policy takes around 6 or 7 seasons to bare fruit. We are just now starting to see the benefit of having East Mains with the youngsters brought through last season and they are just the start. Closing East Mains down just as its starting to work (and under Fenlon its usage becoming more professional) seems a bit stupid, no?

That's putting aside its usage as a training ground for the first team.
And of course as a selling point to potential signings

[Kato]

And of course as a selling point to potential signings

That's overstated a bit imho. Players sign for wages and if they feel ok with a club. Hibs signed many great players before East Mains and quite a few duff ones after it was open.

It's a tool, primarily to allow the players to train but alongside that, long term, it'll pay for itself and then some. Closing it now because some Jambo rat-bags are trying to spread scare stories is just plain idiotic. No?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Sure someone suggested 500k

Not sure how anyone could work that out without some sort of inside information. Hibs accounts simply don't provide that level of detail. Also, whatever the costs incurred by EM are, a calculation of the marginal cost of a training ground has to factor in that the players have to train somewhere. Even ER isn't a cost free option for training as it would increase wear & tear on the pitch.

[Beefster]

The cost of runningnEast Mains was put at 100k.


Sure someone suggested 500k

Hibs said a couple of years ago that it was £500k IIRC.

[rcarter1]

Sure someone suggested 500k

That is what I heard as well.

I am not convinced that a successful youth policy/training regime, is largely dependent upon these facilities. The youth players coming through now might still have come through without East Mains. Brown, Thomson, Whittaker etc etc came through without it. The coaches, scouts, general atmosphere of club and its success, and wages on offer seem to me more important for developing players. Money spent on upkeep could be used instead to bolster these aspects.

Anyway, if we are talking 100K, then Id be in favour of keeping it. Half a mill is a different story.

[cocopops1875]

Not sure how anyone could work that out without some sort of inside information. Hibs accounts simply don't provide that level of detail. Also, whatever the costs incurred by EM are, a calculation of the marginal cost of a training ground has to factor in that the players have to train somewhere. Even ER isn't a cost free option for training as it would increase wear & tear on the pitch.

Maybe the person who suggested it did have inside info ;-)
And nobody is suggesting that training would be free if EM wasn't in use I was simply putting it out there that I heard £ 500k as opposed to £100k which I'm sure you will agree is a fair difference

[Phil D. Rolls]

My mate is a taxi driver, and he has just taken the Tache and a young lady to the airport. Rod refused to say where he was going, but when he got out of the cab, my mate saw bank notes sticking out of the sides of his case.

Petrie was less than happy about this, and stuffed a wad of cash in my mates hand. He then told him, "you ain't seen me - right", and chillingly "we know where you live".

My mate reckons something's up, but he is too frightened to say.

Sent from my allotment in Lochend, by carrier pigeon (driveways tarred, no job too small)

5-1, wee team, 1902, aids ridden hobos, forever in their shadows, docksiders, two world wars, peg sellers, pikeys, Romanov, er, outlaws, Morningside clock, merchant school, riff raff etc.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Maybe the person who suggested it did have inside info ;-)
And nobody is suggesting that training would be free if EM wasn't in use I was simply putting it out there that I heard £ 500k as opposed to £100k which I'm sure you will agree is a fair difference

If accurate, £500K would be on the expensive side of what you would be looking for. The only other thing is that the figure is from a couple of years ago. It's a fair bet it will have dropped since then, as Rod has been cutting costs generally.

[blackpoolhibs]

I seem to remember Mikey saying it was down to around £300k a year to run east mains, I'm sure he will be on soon enough to confirm this either way? :confused:

[Hibercelona]

Regardless of the figures. We clearly haven't had good fortunes on the pitch since it was built. It could just be a coincidence however.

If it turns out that it is somewhere between 300 to 500k a year to run, then I reckon the money could be better spent.

[Leishy1995]

A better training ground won't make us perform better, better players and managers will.

[Sergio sledge]

At £300k per year, you have to sell a Scott Brown once every 14 years to break even.
At £500k per year, you have to sell a Scott Brown once every 9 years to break even.

These don't include the other unquantifiable benefits that a dedicated training centre should bring, which are dependant on proper management and use by the manager, coaches, players and scouting team. If there was no benefits over and above financial, then you wouldn't see a large majority of clubs wanting to build a training centre for their teams.

It has been open 5.5 years, so we've still got another 3.5 years to sell on a player or two for £4m plus before judging the centre on financial terms.

The poor performances in the team over the last few years has nothing to do with the training centre or the money invested in the running of it. Does anyone really think that all Calderwood needed to be a successful Hibs manager was an extra £300k to spend on the squad?

[rcarter1]

At £300k per year, you have to sell a Scott Brown once every 14 years to break even.
At £500k per year, you have to sell a Scott Brown once every 9 years to break even.

These don't include the other unquantifiable benefits that a dedicated training centre should bring, which are dependant on proper management and use by the manager, coaches, players and scouting team. If there was no benefits over and above financial, then you wouldn't see a large majority of clubs wanting to build a training centre for their teams.

It has been open 5.5 years, so we've still got another 3.5 years to sell on a player or two for £4m plus before judging the centre on financial terms.

The poor performances in the team over the last few years has nothing to do with the training centre or the money invested in the running of it. Does anyone really think that all Calderwood needed to be a successful Hibs manager was an extra £300k to spend on the squad?

No, because he was a rubbish manager period. A good manager might do wonders with 300K however.
Not knocking the argument that a training centre can be useful, but Scott Brown was unearthed, developed and sold without the benefit of East Mains. Im not sure how to assess whether the facility actually improves our team/youth development.

[Ross4356]

Do people think we will make a profit or loss this year and when will we know?

[Sergio sledge]

No, because he was a rubbish manager period. A good manager might do wonders with 300K however.
Not knocking the argument that a training centre can be useful, but Scott Brown was unearthed, developed and sold without the benefit of East Mains. Im not sure how to assess whether the facility actually improves our team/youth development.

I don't know how to assess it either, but surely it's got to be given a longer time than just 5 years (with some terrible, in hindsight, managers in place during that time) to justify it's existence as these things are rarely short term fixes. The short term fix, IMHO, would be to invest the £300k in a transfer fee or wages.

We're on our 5th manager since the training centre was opened, which has also had a huge effect on the success of the team and the progression of youth players into the first team IMHO.

If Hibs were the only club around to have invested in these facilities then there would be more of an argument, however the majority of clubs see this as a sound investment and are looking at ways of doing it.

We took advantage of a large excess in cash due to exceptional transfer income to build it at a time when we also managed to have a relatively successful period on the pitch, the lack of success after this point is coincidence rather than due to lack of investment on the pitch due to the running costs. Last year was the first year since the completion of the training centre that the wage budget was reduced rather than increased for example.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Do people think we will make a profit or loss this year

Probably a (smaller) loss. Didn't sell anybody, did better in the league, bigger avg attendance, cups about the same.


and when will we know?

September / October.

[jgl07]

No, because he was a rubbish manager period. A good manager might do wonders with 300K however.
Not knocking the argument that a training centre can be useful, but Scott Brown was unearthed, developed and sold without the benefit of East Mains. Im not sure how to assess whether the facility actually improves our team/youth development.

Well having a proper training facility is obviously much worse than having to drive around in a minibus to find a public park covered with dog**** to train on.

Just why Manchester City are spending £100 million on a new training facility escapes me.

[jacomo]

Well having a proper training facility is obviously much worse than having to drive around in a minibus to find a public park covered with dog**** to train on.

Just why Manchester City are spending £100 million on a new training facility escapes me.

There is no doubt in my mind that building the training centre was a good thing to do. As said above, Hibs have to train somewhere, and surely it is better if we have our own facility for this.

However, given that Mowbray, for one, said it was the single most important investment the club could make, I think it is worth asking why the benefits have not been more obvious. Is it just down to managerial turmoil, or something more fundamental?

Hibs have given the appearance of not being as well drilled as other teams - obviously, each manager will have their own ideas about tactics (mostly cr*p, it turns out) but surely we should now be getting the basics right - fitness, set pieces, bl**dy throw ins??

[Peevemor]

I seem to remember Mikey saying it was down to around £300k a year to run east mains, I'm sure he will be on soon enough to confirm this either way? :confused:

I'd imagine that included in the £300k figure are the salaries for the physios, coaches and other backroom staff - most of whom would be needed with or without East Mains.

[Hibercelona]

There is no doubt in my mind that building the training centre was a good thing to do. As said above, Hibs have to train somewhere, and surely it is better if we have our own facility for this.

However, given that Mowbray, for one, said it was the single most important investment the club could make, I think it is worth asking why the benefits have not been more obvious. Is it just down to managerial turmoil, or something more fundamental?

Hibs have given the appearance of not being as well drilled as other teams - obviously, each manager will have their own ideas about tactics (mostly cr*p, it turns out) but surely we should now be getting the basics right - fitness, set pieces, bl**dy throw ins??

:agree:

5 years (That's 1.5 to 2.5 million in running costs). Yet i've seen no improvements in simple things such as throw ins and corners. If anything, it's been worse.

It's easy to say (well the managers just weren't very good). But does it really require a great manager or highly expensive training facilities in order to throw a ball onto the park to one of your own team mates successfully? :confused:

[tamig]

Just when you thought they couldn't get any more ridiculous or ill informed.

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/129491-hibs-debt/#entry3661543

Some unbelievable pish on that thread. You really couldn't make it up. Their take on the Hands Off Hibs rally is fantasy. Where was the Hertz rally?? Can't seem to recall it even taking place yet. C\/ntz.

[Jones28]

I think it is fair to consider this.

Hibs will no doubt have a good understanding of how much money we could save by not having to pay the admin/maintenance for East mains (and what the costs are for alternative). If it is then decided that it hasnt really helped us develop or improve us on the park, it becomes an option. I would prefer that the club found a really good way of generating revenue from the land.

Would fully understand if it was sold/rented - perhaps to Hearts for a new stadium.. :greengrin

If we save 300,000 per year, then this represents a couple of players, or a better scouting system, or whatever.


Firstly, why close a top a class training centre but pay somewhere else to allow you to train there? It's probably the best football facility on the east coast of Scotland. You're still going to be handing out money for training facilities. I would rather it be a case of Hibs paying 300K to use east mains than 100K to use the likes of riccarton, where we have to be off the pitches by 2 to allow the Herriots ladies Lacrosse team to train.

Secondly, we are now starting to see EM produce. It's been a long time coming, but Harris and Forster breaking in to the first team is - IMO - credit to east mains and the facilities we have built.

[Hibercelona]

Firstly, why close a top a class training centre but pay somewhere else to allow you to train there? It's probably the best football facility on the east coast of Scotland. You're still going to be handing out money for training facilities. I would rather it be a case of Hibs paying 300K to use east mains than 100K to use the likes of riccarton, where we have to be off the pitches by 2 to allow the Herriots ladies Lacrosse team to train.

Secondly, we are now starting to see EM produce. It's been a long time coming, but Harris and Forster breaking in to the first team is - IMO - credit to east mains and the facilities we have built.

Surely you'd expect the best training facilities in the east coast of scotland to actually work?

If we don't start seeing better results with these facilities, than how can we justify the expenditure?

[Posh Swanny]

Surely you'd expect the best training facilities in the east coast of scotland to actually work?

If we don't start seeing better results with these facilities, than how can we justify the expenditure?

How do you know they are not working? I put it to you that the existence of East Mains is solely responsible for Alex Harris, two cup final appearances, no relegations and an injury time winner at Tynie in recent seasons. Had we still been driving around Edinburgh in a mini-bus every morning, I put it to you that we would have seen no cup final appearances, a relegation and used the £300k savings from East Mains on a £6,000 a week permanent deal for Tom Soares.

:wink:

[Hibernia Na Eir]

looking at the hearts episode, Hibs have absolutely nothing to fear about having £5m debt (or whatever it is).
The Futures green and white:)

[Keith_M]

looking at the hearts episode, Hibs have absolutely nothing to fear about having £5m debt (or whatever it is).
The Futures green and white:)


Depends who you talk to. If you ask Hearts fans, it's nearing 10M. We all know what financial geniuses they are.


The thing is, we're nowhere near Hearts situation but the worst thing we could do is become complacent about it. It's manageable but definitely needs to be kept within a sensible level.

If we try not to think like Hearts fans (What iceberg, Carruthers?) we'll never end up in Hearts situation.

[ancienthibby]

Depends who you talk to. If you ask Hearts fans, it's nearing 10M. We all know what financial geniuses they are.


The thing is, we're nowhere near Hearts situation but the worst thing we could do is become complacent about it. It's manageable but definitely needs to be kept within a sensible level.

If we try not to think like Hearts fans (What iceberg, Carruthers?) we'll never end up in Hearts situation.

I don't have the last accounts to hand, but that's a pretty accurate figure.

In the Accounts Hibs choose to 'net-off' their cash in the bank (mostly made up of season ticket sales for the next season) but that money will be used to part pay operating costs and wages for everyone for most of the following year, so it is quite misleading to present a net debt figure which includes funds which cannot be used to pay off longer term debt i.e. stadium mortgages.

I suspect our Gross Debt for this year to 31 July may well be higher.

[Waxy]

If we did get into trouble, could we sell East mains?
How much is it worth?

[Kato]

If we did get into trouble, could we sell East mains?
How much is it worth?

We could sell the undeveloped land beside East Mains before we had to sell East Mains first. We only use half the land, the rest is earmarked for expansion if we are ever in the position to do so but it could be sold if we were ever in trouble.

The finger-pointer, "its yooz next" type of jambo is a complete hoot I think. A great laugh.

[grunt]

If you ask Hearts fans, it's nearing 10M. We all know what financial geniuses they are.



I don't have the last accounts to hand, but that's a pretty accurate figure.

In the Accounts Hibs choose to 'net-off' their cash in the bank (mostly made up of season ticket sales for the next season) but that money will be used to part pay operating costs and wages for everyone for most of the following year, so it is quite misleading to present a net debt figure which includes funds which cannot be used to pay off longer term debt i.e. stadium mortgages.

I suspect our Gross Debt for this year to 31 July may well be higher.The accounts are in the hibs.net vault, available for all to see. And what they tell you is that this post is mostly incorrect. "Hibs choose to net off their cash"??? You mean, in arriving at the figure of net debt, Hibs deduct cash in hand from creditors, as is the universal definition of net debt? The mortgages and intercompany loan (to STF) come to £7.3m, and we had £1m in the bank, so our net debt was £6.3m. Nowhere near £10m.

[Waxy]

We could sell undeveloped the land beside East Mains before we had to sell East Mains first. We only use half the land, the rest is earmarked for expansion if we are ever in the position to do so but it could be sold if we were ever in trouble.

The finger-pointer, "its yooz next" type of jambo is a complete hoot I think. A great laugh.Even better.Didn't know we had a spare bit land.

[ancienthibby]

The accounts are in the hibs.net vault, available for all to see. And what they tell you is that this post is mostly incorrect. "Hibs choose to net off their cash"??? You mean, in arriving at the figure of net debt, Hibs deduct cash in hand from creditors, as is the universal definition of net debt? The mortgages and intercompany loan (to STF) come to £7.3m, and we had £1m in the bank, so our net debt was £6.3m. Nowhere near £10m.

Net Debt is a complete fallacy for running a business. If you reduce Gross Debt by using Cash at the Bank, how are you going to fund the business??

Aye the Yamboids ken!

By borrowing more money.

And we know where that got them.

[Jack]

A while ago I explained our debt this way - and I'm no expert.

Hibs have a mortgage pretty much like you and I, its debt on our home.

We have a bank account with some money in it, its a bit like you and I for our day to day spending.

We probably have a credit card type thing we dont use much, a bit like you and I.

Hertz on the other hand stopped paying their mortgage years ago and just added the interest on. You know what would happen to you and I if we did that.

Hertz have no money in the bank. Don't go there he said.

Then there's the hertz credit cards. They've got quite a few and have been taking money from one to pay the other. But now they're all maxed out.

You don't have a pot mate.

[steakbake]

Ehm, debt for equity swaps, we owe it to ourselves, self suffient... something like that...

[Iggy Pope]

How do you know they are not working? I put it to you that the existence of East Mains is solely responsible for Alex Harris, two cup final appearances, no relegations and an injury time winner at Tynie in recent seasons. Had we still been driving around Edinburgh in a mini-bus every morning, I put it to you that we would have seen no cup final appearances, a relegation and used the £300k savings from East Mains on a £6,000 a week permanent deal for Tom Soares.

:wink:

The most succinct post anywhere on these boards.
:top marks

[poolman]

Surely you'd expect the best training facilities in the east coast of scotland to actually work?

If we don't start seeing better results with these facilities, than how can we justify the expenditure?



And where exactly would Hibs train if we didn't have EM

Really don't know where your coming from here, new Hibs signings usually say that the training facilities is one of reasons that they join the club

[Part/Time Supporter]

Net Debt is a complete fallacy for running a business. If you reduce Gross Debt by using Cash at the Bank, how are you going to fund the business??

Aye the Yamboids ken!

By borrowing more money.

And we know where that got them.

Not really, it depends on how much cash you have and how much you need. For example, Hibs in 2007 had about the same debt as they have now (the stadium mortgages), but they also had millions in cash because they had just sold Brown and Thomson. They didn't need that much cash to run the club over the next year and that's when they started looking at investing that cash in infrastructure (EM and then the stand). As much as you think "net debt" is a fallacy, it would have been more misleading to say that Hibs were (say) £8 million in debt in 2007.

[Caversham Green]

I don't have the last accounts to hand, but that's a pretty accurate figure.

In the Accounts Hibs choose to 'net-off' their cash in the bank (mostly made up of season ticket sales for the next season) but that money will be used to part pay operating costs and wages for everyone for most of the following year, so it is quite misleading to present a net debt figure which includes funds which cannot be used to pay off longer term debt i.e. stadium mortgages.

I suspect our Gross Debt for this year to 31 July may well be higher.

Hibs don't 'choose' to net off the cash figure against debt, they're required by accounting standards to do so. Their gross debt (which is a more relevant figure IMO) at 31 July 2012 was £7,358,407 of which £654,971 was due within one year. As there has been no further debt of this nature incurred it follows that gross debt at 31 July 2013 will be £6,703,436, although it may be £250,000 more than that if the parent company extends the due date of its loan.

[Hibercelona]

And where exactly would Hibs train if we didn't have EM

I'm sorry. I forgot EM was the only place on earth that a football club could possibly train. Anywhere else would be unthinkable.


Really don't know where your coming from here, new Hibs signings usually say that the training facilities is one of reasons that they join the club

Maybe because they don't have the balls to train in uncomfortable conditions?

[RyeSloan]

Hibs don't 'choose' to net off the cash figure against debt, they're required by accounting standards to do so. Their gross debt (which is a more relevant figure IMO) at 31 July 2012 was £7,358,407 of which £654,971 was due within one year. As there has been no further debt of this nature incurred it follows that gross debt at 31 July 2013 will be £6,703,436, although it may be £250,000 more than that if the parent company extends the due date of its loan.

Assuming operational break even in the period?

This net debt argument is circular. Both measures have merit and both show different figures because they are different measures.

The key to me is the size of the annual repayment requirements v annual turnover...roughly that looks like high single digits to me so perfectly manageable.

Would be nice to turn a profit or at least break even without player sales....that would be the point where the club could claim sustainability along with progressive debt reduction...don't think we are there yet so still work to be done and purse strings to be kept tight.

[Caversham Green]

Assuming operational break even in the period?

This net debt argument is circular. Both measures have merit and both show different figures because they are different measures.

The key to me is the size of the annual repayment requirements v annual turnover...roughly that looks like high single digits to me so perfectly manageable.

Would be nice to turn a profit or at least break even without player sales....that would be the point where the club could claim sustainability along with progressive debt reduction...don't think we are there yet so still work to be done and purse strings to be kept tight.

The debt in these figures is structured debt only - trade creditors are considered working capital, which is why I don't like the allocation of cash in hand to the net debt figure. That means that the figures I'm quoting are unaffected by operational results and will go down by a fixed amount each year unless new loans are taken on. Realistically the annual repayment requirement is around £400k since the parent company loan is payable on demand and will not be demanded until the club can afford it.

The bottom line though, is that it's always misleading to look at a single aspect of the accounts in isolation because the other elements can change the picture significantly.

[SquashedFrogg]

The sudden bout of amnesia over there is hillarious...

We are now going bust apparently...

Reading some of the posts on ireallyhavenocluewhatshappeninghere.co.uk is like listening to your granny talk about the latest chart music...

Honestly it's hillarious...

They are the equivalent of some wee ned dipping into their mums purse when she's on the phone....

Poor souls...

[jdships]

And where exactly would Hibs train if we didn't have EM

Really don't know where your coming from here, new Hibs signings usually say that the training facilities is one of reasons that they join the club

:agree::top marks

[jdships]

I'm sorry. I forgot EM was the only place on earth that a football club could possibly train. Anywhere else would be unthinkable.



Maybe because they don't have the balls to train in uncomfortable conditions?

:na na:

[blackpoolhibs]

Maybe because they don't have the balls to train in uncomfortable conditions?

Can you name me any clubs that train in uncomfortable conditions?

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

I try to avoid KB as I honestly feel as if I lose brain cells every time I read it. Did notice one thread over there tho on 'Hibs accounts' sorry, 'Hobo accounts'(obviously). They just aren't very clever are they? Someone posted something 'official' about us being a 'Newco in 1903', hence loads of laughs about us never winning the Scottish Cup etc(have they not got more pressing issues??), someone else posted something along the lines of 'well if Hibs became a Newco in 1903 then we became a Newco in 1905 as the exact same thing happened to us'. OBVIOUSLY that was completely ignored by the others. There was also a comment of 'will be out of Admin before Hibs enter it?' And the best 'Once were sorted we can begin work on Hibs dodgy dealings and corrupt accounts'. Shame for them that they don't have the brain capacity to deal with such issues. Hilarious as well that they think there would be anything to find. Trying to compare our well run, family club with their cheating, stealing, money laundering, peadophile harbouring, debt ridden organisation. I don't think so Jumbos

[Mon Dieu4]

I try to avoid KB as I honestly feel as if I lose brain cells every time I read it. Did notice one thread over there tho on 'Hibs accounts' sorry, 'Hobo accounts'(obviously). They just aren't very clever are they? Someone posted something 'official' about us being a 'Newco in 1903', hence loads of laughs about us never winning the Scottish Cup etc(have they not got more pressing issues??), someone else posted something along the lines of 'well if Hibs became a Newco in 1903 then we became a Newco in 1905 as the exact same thing happened to us'. OBVIOUSLY that was completely ignored by the others. There was also a comment of 'will be out of Admin before Hibs enter it?' And the best 'Once were sorted we can begin work on Hibs dodgy dealings and corrupt accounts'. Shame for them that they don't have the brain capacity to deal with such issues. Hilarious as well that they think there would be anything to find. Trying to compare our well run, family club with their cheating, stealing, money laundering, peadophile harbouring, debt ridden organisation. I don't think so Jumbos

i think they seem to forget we are run by a qualified Chartered Accountant, just ignore them, its a defense mechanism as they are up the swanny

[CropleyWasGod]

i think they seem to forget we are run by a qualified Chartered Accountant, just ignore them, its a defense mechanism as they are up the swanny

... and that's a good thing? :rolleyes:

[Part/Time Supporter]

I try to avoid KB as I honestly feel as if I lose brain cells every time I read it. Did notice one thread over there tho on 'Hibs accounts' sorry, 'Hobo accounts'(obviously). They just aren't very clever are they? Someone posted something 'official' about us being a 'Newco in 1903', hence loads of laughs about us never winning the Scottish Cup etc(have they not got more pressing issues??), someone else posted something along the lines of 'well if Hibs became a Newco in 1903 then we became a Newco in 1905 as the exact same thing happened to us'. OBVIOUSLY that was completely ignored by the others. There was also a comment of 'will be out of Admin before Hibs enter it?' And the best 'Once were sorted we can begin work on Hibs dodgy dealings and corrupt accounts'. Shame for them that they don't have the brain capacity to deal with such issues. Hilarious as well that they think there would be anything to find. Trying to compare our well run, family club with their cheating, stealing, money laundering, peadophile harbouring, debt ridden organisation. I don't think so Jumbos

Not quite. Hibs were a members' club until 1903 (before 1890 under the auspices of the Church), when it was incorporated. Hibs have used the same corporate identity ever since.

Hearts were also a members' club in their early days, then incorporated. That company was liquidated and replaced by a newco (the present HMFC company in administration) in 1905.

[lochhibs]

does anyone know what thread it is that shows how much our debt is at?i remember reading it but cant remember what thread it was.it basically said about the 3 loans/mortgages we have and what the repayments are.

[Allant1981]

Just seen an article on facebook about hibs and HBOS and there is seemingly a direct quote from RP agreeing we have cash flow problems at the moment, anyone know about this?

[borstalboy]

Just seen an article on facebook about hibs and HBOS and there is seemingly a direct quote from RP agreeing we have cash flow problems at the moment, anyone know about this?

I'd imagine if there was any truth in this, we would not have paid any sort of fee for our newly acquired striker!

[higgy0418]

Facebook. The most reliable source for all your sports news

[lucky]

We have just paid fees to for 2 players Collins and Nelson. Usual yam piss just ignore

[Allant1981]

Aww i know but when i seen the direct quote it made me wonder, it looked like a newspaper cutting on the fb post

[Twiglet]

Just seen an article on facebook about hibs and HBOS and there is seemingly a direct quote from RP agreeing we have cash flow problems at the moment, anyone know about this?


Got a link?
Don't think Petrie would start talking about Hibs finances to journalists either and it would have been picked up by the BBC "journos" if there were real issues.

[Allant1981]

Got a link?
Don't think Petrie would start talking about Hibs finances to journalists either and it would have been picked up by the BBC "journos" if there were real issues.

Ill try do it when i get home, currently on my phone so dont know how to do it

[YehButNoBut]

Just seen an article on facebook about hibs and HBOS and there is seemingly a direct quote from RP agreeing we have cash flow problems at the moment, anyone know about this?

It sounds like a Yam wind up, they're desperate for us to hit the skids financially, helps them forget the state they are in.

[Pretty Boy]

Aparently we all know we will go into administration eventually.

I read it on kickback so it must be true.

[Allant1981]

It sounds like a Yam wind up, they're desperate for us to hit the skids financially, helps them forget the state they are in.

It prob is,was on my mates page who just so happens to be a hearts fan

[Prawn Sandwich]

Just seen an article on facebook about hibs and HBOS and there is seemingly a direct quote from RP agreeing we have cash flow problems at the moment, anyone know about this?

Garbage. Hibs have a pile of assets for the bank to be comfortable about any short term difficulty. They are a fiscally a well run club. It's just the football is gash!

2011-2012
Turnover
£6.9m
Down £0.1m
Staff costs
£4.1m
Down £0.7m
Wages to Turnover Ratio
60%
Down from 69%
Operating Loss
£0.9m
Down £0.8m
Player trading gains
£0.1m
Down £0.8m
Loss before tax
£0.9m
Unchanged
Fixed assets
£23.8m
Down £0.5m
Net assets
£13.4m
Down £1.0m
Net debt
£6.4m
Up £0.5m

[VivaHiberña]

Aww i know but when i seen the direct quote it made me wonder, it looked like a newspaper cutting on the fb post

"The problem with quotes on the internet is that it can be difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln


On a serious note, we can't ignore the fact that we have made a loss for the past three years running. This is where we need to be asking questions and while I doubt we're in crisis given what we've spent this month, some answers re Hibs financial position would be interesting. Of course, the economy is weak and all businesses are struggling, so perhaps keeping the ship afloat is a reasonable target until things steady up a wee bit then we can get back to clearing the debt.

[R'Albin]

lol

[Islington Hibs]

Hibs are not in any trouble financially and are unlikely to be on a short to medium term view however the club has lost money in each of the last three years and the situation would have been markedly worse if we had not got to two cup finals which in each case was probably worth around £1m in final money, TV and extra season tickets.

I guess with all the new players the wage bill won't have gone down and if results don't improve and there is no |(in all probability) cup final we could be on a bit of a slope. Lot's of if's and buts but given how , understandably, pissed off we all are the numbers could deteriorate quite sharply. Son the dice has been thrown so I doubt there is much more scope to throw the dice.

That said the situation is a million miles away from Gorgie and further, whatever your view of STF he is honourable and is quite unlikely to do a runner like our Lithuanian friend!

[The_Horde]

It's a picture. And it's 100% fake.

[GreenPJ]

I wonder what rate of interest we are paying on the current mortgage and if there was any mechanism to ask STF to pay off that outstanding mortgage, we take out a loan at a lower rate of interest (which we hope will remain low for at least the next 3 years based on BoE comments last week) and pay him back over the same period the mortgage would have been paid (or earlier as we are paying back more of the capital).

[Caversham Green]

;3719798']It's a picture. And it's 100% fake.

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/Questhouseernie/1186285_599178093438186_532791868_n.jpg

"Ongoing credit facility with HBOS" - we don't have one.

"Last accounts showed short-term debts of £4m" - no they didn't.

"Overall debts of up to £8m" - no they weren't.

It must be real, no fake would get all that wrong.

[heid the baw]

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/Questhouseernie/1186285_599178093438186_532791868_n.jpg

"Ongoing credit facility with HBOS" - we don't have one.

"Last accounts showed short-term debts of £4m" - no they didn't.

"Overall debts of up to £8m" - no they weren't.

It must be real, no fake would get all that wrong.

Loving the grocer's apostrophe as well. Only in Yamland could a wind-up be so poorly constructed

[LioNeilMessi]

Just seen an article on facebook about hibs and HBOS and there is seemingly a direct quote from RP agreeing we have cash flow problems at the moment, anyone know about this?

Cash flow problems shortly after season ticket income... unless we've splashed a couple mill on bringing Leigh back then it seems unlikely.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk 2

[blackpoolhibs]

http://www.fodey.com/generators/newspaper/snippet.asp

[ancient hibee]

http://www.fodey.com/generators/newspaper/snippet.asp

I'm glad to have confirmation of the Martian invasion a few years back.I was worried nobody else knew about it.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm glad to have confirmation of the Martian invasion a few years back.I was worried nobody else knew about it.


They mostly congregated around the Gorgie area of Edinburgh, so have mainly remained unnoticed.

[Hibs90]

Anyone who believed that picture seriously needs examined.

[blackpoolhibs]

10848

[Dunderhall]

10848
:agree:
Pics from that website probably deserves its own thread.

[HibbySpurs]

Haha, what a load of utter.......

[Allant1981]

Yip i fell for hit hook line and sinker, said jambo mate txt me about ten mins later asking if i had been on .net so its good to see the jambos looking in