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View Full Version : Were Dundee cheated out of their SPL place?



Part/Time Supporter
17-06-2013, 09:23 PM
Consider the following, which ignores the technical guff about UBIG, Ukio and all that:

The 2012/13 league season (and the date that any penalties would apply in that season) finished on 19 May.

Hearts have sold somewhere between 6000 and 7000 season tickets, generating an estimated 2M in cash. They have been selling these for the last couple of months; started long before the end of the 2012/13 league season.

Hearts completely run out of cash by early June.

There is no way that Hearts have incurred over 2M of costs in the last four weeks, even considering what a financial basket case they have been.

Therefore that season ticket revenue - which is supposed to finance their operations in 2013/14 - was used to finance operations in 2012/13.

If they had started selling season tickets later, or had ring-fenced that income for the operations it was supposed to finance, they would have become insolvent during 2012/13. Thereby incurring an 18 point penalty which (as it turned out) would have relegated Hearts and kept Dundee in the SPL.

:hmmm:

GoldenEagle
17-06-2013, 09:28 PM
Wait until you read John Brown tomorrow ;)

Boyle89
17-06-2013, 09:30 PM
In short yes they have. But when hearts get liquidated Dundee will just jump right back up :).

Part/Time Supporter
17-06-2013, 09:31 PM
In short yes they have. But when hearts get liquidated Dundee will just jump right back up :).

Not if they follow the precedent of last season.

Eyrie
17-06-2013, 09:40 PM
Short answer is yes, because I can't see what has changed for the Yams since the season finished. Sporting integrity demands that the Yams are booted to Division Three and Dundee or Morton given their place in the top flight to avoid the farce of an uncompetitive mixture of amateurs and under 16s starting the season on -15 points and being certainties for relegation.

As regards the season ticket money, the 2m assumes that it is all paid up front but in practice many may be being paid by instalments so they haven't had the cash yet to burn. Easy to believe though that what money has been paid was used to settle debts and wages for the 2012/13 season.

NORTHERNHIBBY
17-06-2013, 09:45 PM
A bit like a retrospective red card. It's not the team that is playing at the time that gets the benefit from it, it is the team that plays them next.

blaikie
17-06-2013, 10:00 PM
Surely be Morton next year in the league if the maroon morons end up in the EOS league!

blackpoolhibs
17-06-2013, 10:01 PM
Never mind Dundee, they cheated me out of just under 1500. :grr:

CropleyWasGod
17-06-2013, 10:02 PM
In short yes they have. But when hearts get liquidated Dundee will just jump right back up :).

Hearts will not be liquidated for quite some time. If they are, it won't be before the start of the season.

clerriehibs
17-06-2013, 10:04 PM
Has someone not previously stated that the SPL can make a retrospective decision about when a club became insolvent, which they might decide was before the end of the season?

CropleyWasGod
17-06-2013, 10:06 PM
Has someone not previously stated that the SPL can make a retrospective decision about when a club became insolvent, which they might decide was before the end of the season?

Think that was more to do with the UBIG insolvency, no?

It would be a brave decision by the SPFL to make a decision like that, since it would be contrary to Company Law.

J-C
17-06-2013, 10:10 PM
Has someone not previously stated that the SPL can make a retrospective decision about when a club became insolvent, which they might decide was before the end of the season?


Did UBIG not apply for insolvency prior to the end of the season but the league waited till it found out if it was done in a proper legal manner in the Lithuanian courts etc.

God Petrie
17-06-2013, 10:11 PM
What happens if Hearts are unable to fulfil their fixtures next season but aren't yet "liquidated"? Zombie Hertz buy their league place (in div3)?

clerriehibs
17-06-2013, 10:19 PM
Did UBIG not apply for insolvency prior to the end of the season but the league waited till it found out if it was done in a proper legal manner in the Lithuanian courts etc.

That's how I remember it; and I'd think, if the SPFL wanted to maintain its fixture integrity for next season, the SPL could retrospectively say that "yes, UBIG did go about it the right way, they were declaring themselves insolvent, and so, apologies hmfc, but your erchie is retrospectively out the window".

Spike Mandela
17-06-2013, 10:32 PM
Hearts will not be liquidated for quite some time. If they are, it won't be before the start of the season.

Haven't some 'knowledgable' posters on here suggested that finances are so grim at Hearts the administrator/judge could go straight to liquidation?

lEXO
17-06-2013, 10:32 PM
They probably were. However as someone else has already stated the standard was set last year with Dundee coming up instead of Dunfermline getting the place. They wont take the chance.

lucky
17-06-2013, 10:34 PM
I actually think its the only sensible decision the Yam board have made in all this. They raised enough cash to get over the finish line and have given themselves an outside chance of staying up next year if they can avoid liquidation. So whilst they have financially cheated the whole league under SPL rules they are ok. But Dundee have also been financially doping for a number of years so no sympathy for them

ballengeich
17-06-2013, 10:41 PM
Think that was more to do with the UBIG insolvency, no?

It would be a brave decision by the SPFL to make a decision like that, since it would be contrary to Company Law.


I actually think its the only sensible decision the Yam board have made in all this. They raised enough cash to get over the finish line and have given themselves an outside chance of staying up next year if they can avoid liquidation. So whilst they have financially cheated the whole league under SPL rules they are ok. But Dundee have also been financially doping for a number of years so no sympathy for them

So morally yes, legally no.

Sir David Gray
17-06-2013, 10:42 PM
I think it's fairly obvious that Hearts have managed to draw this whole thing out just long enough so they avoided the 18 points deduction last season that would have seen them relegated.

I'm certain that the hierarchy at the club knew what the outcome was going to be last month but, to be fair to them, they did what every club would have done in their position.

If they start on minus 15 points next season, they're going to find it difficult, particularly if they lose most, if not all, of their first team players. However they're still going to have a chance of surviving, which they wouldn't have had if they had lost those points last season.

Dundee can feel aggrieved at the situation but there's no way that they'll be reinstated in the SPL, even if they go bust as it will be Morton who will go up.

IWasThere2016
17-06-2013, 11:03 PM
The Yams have lied, lied and lied again. So, yes IMHO.

KWJ
18-06-2013, 12:08 AM
I think it's fairly obvious that Hearts have managed to draw this whole thing out just long enough so they avoided the 18 points deduction last season that would have seen them relegated.

I'm certain that the hierarchy at the club knew what the outcome was going to be last month but, to be fair to them, they did what every club would have done in their position.

If they start on minus 15 points next season, they're going to find it difficult, particularly if they lose most, if not all, of their first team players. However they're still going to have a chance of surviving, which they wouldn't have had if they had lost those points last season.

Dundee can feel aggrieved at the situation but there's no way that they'll be reinstated in the SPL, even if they go bust as it will be Morton who will go up.

What this man said.

The flip-side of this though is that the fans won't be best pleased seeing them take a pumping week-in-week-out and they won't be able to hold on to that feeling of togetherness and winning mentality that Newco Rangers had/have.

Let's see if their fans are still being patient, saying this is for the best when Lewis Stevenson heads home his 2nd hat-trick of the game and the Hibees 14th!

Okay, I got a little carried away but you catch the drift!

bighairyfaeleith
18-06-2013, 05:15 AM
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4973231/John-Brown-blasts-Jambos-timing.html

I have to say, brown is right, hearts have once again cheated and a 15 point deduction doesn't even come close to being a suitable punishment. They should be relegated as they blatantly lied to the SPL at the end of the season.

Think it's time to start bombarding folks again with emails and make our feelings known. Can't let these cants wriggle out of this one at all.

Beefster
18-06-2013, 05:41 AM
They've been cheating since about 1998 so they were never going to stop until the club was completely taken out of their hands.

Salisbury Hibby
18-06-2013, 06:12 AM
As regards the season ticket money, the 2m assumes that it is all paid up front but in practice many may be being paid by instalments so they haven't had the cash yet to burn. Easy to believe though that what money has been paid was used to settle debts and wages for the 2012/13 season.

Hearts would have got the full funds from the company administering season ticket finance. I think that's how it usually works.

Pete
18-06-2013, 06:58 AM
They've been cheating since about 1998 so they were never going to stop until the club was completely taken out of their hands.

How many teams have actually been cheated during this period of financial doping, especially the romanov era?

How many teams have been knocked out of cups and finished in lower league positions because they were spending money they didn't have?

They are a disgrace and deserve everything that is coming...and more. Self-confessed cheats and they will take that reputation to the grave.

bingo70
18-06-2013, 06:58 AM
He says rangers were punished for administration but they weren't really, think they got a 10 point penalty so were still guaranteed to finish second, it was liquidation what done the old rangers.

GloryGlory
18-06-2013, 07:07 AM
I actually think its the only sensible decision the Yam board have made in all this. They raised enough cash to get over the finish line and have given themselves an outside chance of staying up next year if they can avoid liquidation. So whilst they have financially cheated the whole league under SPL rules they are ok. But Dundee have also been financially doping for a number of years so no sympathy for them

Surely under company law the Yam directors have a few hard questions to answer? They have been trading while insolvent for some time and yet have only now decided to appoint administrators. Could even be a case for the fraud squad!

J-C
18-06-2013, 08:08 AM
They probably were. However as someone else has already stated the standard was set last year with Dundee coming up instead of Dunfermline getting the place. They wont take the chance.


Did Rangers not go into liquidation after the end of that season, hence it was the team lying in 2nd in Div 1 who came up. If UBIG therefore Hearts applied for insolvency prior to the end of the league season, then surely a 15 pt penalty would've been incurred and they not Dundee would've been relegated.

CropleyWasGod
18-06-2013, 08:08 AM
Haven't some 'knowledgable' posters on here suggested that finances are so grim at Hearts the administrator/judge could go straight to liquidation?

IIRC, the administrator has 8 weeks to make that call.

CropleyWasGod
18-06-2013, 08:10 AM
Did Rangers not go into liquidation after the end of that season, hence it was the team lying in 2nd in Div 1 who came up. If UBIG therefore Hearts applied for insolvency prior to the end of the league season, then surely a 15 pt penalty would've been incurred and they not Dundee would've been relegated.

It was nothing to do with liquidation. The Newco applied to take the Oldco's place in the SPL, and were rejected. That is why Dundee came up.

Hearts penalty last season would have been 18 points.

The Sea-gull
18-06-2013, 08:18 AM
When the latest cash flow rumblings started around about mid-May everyone reading between the liens could see Hearts were fudging things to get to the end of the season.

Whether they have done anything wrong - I don't know and I don't think many people do. The SPL investigated and found no wrong doing. I'm not convinced how thorough the SPL investigation was. Not very it seems but this is either because it was too complicated for them or they, for some reason have turned a blind eye to it all.

There have been a lot of comments for over a month now which suggested that Hearts would, for tactical reasons, go into admin at some stage in June. Low and behold it has happened. I'm no financial expert by any stretch but surely they would have know for some time now that admin was inevitable despite whatever assurances they have given the SPL. They did everything they could to avoid the points deduction and relegation. While it is immoral, I don't think they are the only team who would do this. Any team in this situation would play the system to meet their own ends.

And there perhaps is the point - what they have done in terms of avoiding the points deduction is immoral but not, certainly in the eyes of the SPL, illegal.

EH6 Hibby
18-06-2013, 08:23 AM
IIRC, the administrator has 8 weeks to make that call.

8 weeks? Who pays their fees for that period then? It's clear Hearts don't have the money and as the assets are still frozen, there won't be a buyer to pay them.

Is it possible that Hearts know something about events in Lithuania that might mean the club can be sold?

CropleyWasGod
18-06-2013, 08:31 AM
8 weeks? Who pays their fees for that period then? It's clear Hearts don't have the money and as the assets are still frozen, there won't be a buyer to pay them.

Is it possible that Hearts know something about events in Lithuania that might mean the club can be sold?

I may be wrong about the 8 weeks. That may be the deadline for the first report. If that's the case, they could come to a conclusion well before then.

Part/Time Supporter
18-06-2013, 08:31 AM
I suppose the one good thing from the point of view of the rest of the league is that if they had been 20+ points clear of Dundee in May, you can be sure they would have taken the hit then. Alternatively, if they had made the top six, they would have been locked into sixth place at worst irrespective of any points deduction(s).

Fedotovas said in an interview at the time of their AGM that they had budgeted to finish sixth last season. With their player budget last season they should have been looking to finish top three, particularly with Rangers out of the picture. But if they had been running in the top three after 33 games, an 18 point hit would have dropped them into sixth place, with no prospect of going any higher or lower.

Coincidence?

Robinho08
18-06-2013, 08:42 AM
Dundee were not good enough. However I do believe that Hearts held off to avoid relegation, so yes in that retrospect.

God Petrie
18-06-2013, 08:49 AM
Dundee were not good enough. However I do believe that Hearts held off to avoid relegation, so yes in that retrospect.

Hearts wouldn't have been good enough had they been fielding a a team they could actually afford. That's the entire point of the points deduction.

HiBremian
18-06-2013, 09:35 AM
When the latest cash flow rumblings started around about mid-May everyone reading between the liens could see Hearts were fudging things to get to the end of the season.

Whether they have done anything wrong - I don't know and I don't think many people do. The SPL investigated and found no wrong doing. I'm not convinced how thorough the SPL investigation was. Not very it seems but this is either because it was too complicated for them or they, for some reason have turned a blind eye to it all.

There have been a lot of comments for over a month now which suggested that Hearts would, for tactical reasons, go into admin at some stage in June. Low and behold it has happened. I'm no financial expert by any stretch but surely they would have know for some time now that admin was inevitable despite whatever assurances they have given the SPL. They did everything they could to avoid the points deduction and relegation. While it is immoral, I don't think they are the only team who would do this. Any team in this situation would play the system to meet their own ends.

And there perhaps is the point - what they have done in terms of avoiding the points deduction is immoral but not, certainly in the eyes of the SPL, illegal.


I suppose the one good thing from the point of view of the rest of the league is that if they had been 20+ points clear of Dundee in May, you can be sure they would have taken the hit then. Alternatively, if they had made the top six, they would have been locked into sixth place at worst irrespective of any points deduction(s).

Fedotovas said in an interview at the time of their AGM that they had budgeted to finish sixth last season. With their player budget last season they should have been looking to finish top three, particularly with Rangers out of the picture. But if they had been running in the top three after 33 games, an 18 point hit would have dropped them into sixth place, with no prospect of going any higher or lower.

Coincidence?

No, I don't think it's a coincidence, PTS. What this points to is systemic failure, and why allowing the free enterprise business model in football a free rein inevitably leads to businessmen taking business decisions that have nothing to do with sport. It's also not a coincidence that the word "sport" has 2 meanings, and one of them ain't cheat.

J-C
18-06-2013, 10:59 AM
It was nothing to do with liquidation. The Newco applied to take the Oldco's place in the SPL, and were rejected. That is why Dundee came up.

Hearts penalty last season would have been 18 points.


My point was they were in admin during the season and got docked points, they were liquidated during the summer break, hence why they started in Div 3 and Dundee were asked to replace them at short notice. If Rangers hadn't gone into liquidation and stayed in administration, they'd just be docked the points again at the start of the new season.

CropleyWasGod
18-06-2013, 11:06 AM
My point was they were in admin during the season and got docked points, they were liquidated during the summer break, hence why they started in Div 3 and Dundee were asked to replace them at short notice. If Rangers hadn't gone into liquidation and stayed in administration, they'd just be docked the points again at the start of the new season.

Sorry, that isn't what happened.

The liquidation was not the reason they weren't allowed into the SPL. They transferred the assets to the NewCo, and it was the NewCo that was refused entry to the SPL. The liquidation of the OldCo happened later, and was irrelevant.

silverhibee
18-06-2013, 11:14 AM
Consider the following, which ignores the technical guff about UBIG, Ukio and all that:

The 2012/13 league season (and the date that any penalties would apply in that season) finished on 19 May.

Hearts have sold somewhere between 6000 and 7000 season tickets, generating an estimated 2M in cash. They have been selling these for the last couple of months; started long before the end of the 2012/13 league season.

Hearts completely run out of cash by early June.

There is no way that Hearts have incurred over 2M of costs in the last four weeks, even considering what a financial basket case they have been.

Therefore that season ticket revenue - which is supposed to finance their operations in 2013/14 - was used to finance operations in 2012/13.

If they had started selling season tickets later, or had ring-fenced that income for the operations it was supposed to finance, they would have become insolvent during 2012/13. Thereby incurring an 18 point penalty which (as it turned out) would have relegated Hearts and kept Dundee in the SPL.

:hmmm:

And sure i heard Murray on STV news last night saying the club had taken in 1.7m with the share issue. Where did that go.?

J-C
18-06-2013, 11:18 AM
Sorry, that isn't what happened.

The liquidation was not the reason they weren't allowed into the SPL. They transferred the assets to the NewCo, and it was the NewCo that was refused entry to the SPL. The liquidation of the OldCo happened later, and was irrelevant.


Well whatever happened it was during the summer break and any newco had to apply to the league which was rejected, either way the old Rangers don't exist and a new one does, my point being they had the points reduction during the season as that's when admin started. UBIG applied for insolvency during the league season but the SPL decided to wait to make sure it was being done legally, so surely the fact that UBIG were insolvent during the season, that would make Heart insolvent at that time, causing a point deficit to be applied.

CropleyWasGod
18-06-2013, 11:29 AM
Well whatever happened it was during the summer break and any newco had to apply to the league which was rejected, either way the old Rangers don't exist and a new one does, my point being they had the points reduction during the season as that's when admin started. UBIG applied for insolvency during the league season but the SPL decided to wait to make sure it was being done legally, so surely the fact that UBIG were insolvent during the season, that would make Heart insolvent at that time, causing a point deficit to be applied.

Again, that's not what happened. UBIG announced their intention to go into administration, but they haven't yet followed through on that. So, legally, they are not yet in administration.

It's not the SPL's place to judge on insolvency; they are not qualified to do so. Their rules refer to an "insolvency event", rather than insolvency itself.

Beefster
18-06-2013, 11:38 AM
8 weeks? Who pays their fees for that period then? It's clear Hearts don't have the money and as the assets are still frozen, there won't be a buyer to pay them.

Is it possible that Hearts know something about events in Lithuania that might mean the club can be sold?

AFAIK, the administrators fees are paid from the proceeds before any creditors get their pennies.

GloryGlory
18-06-2013, 11:42 AM
And sure i heard Murray on STV news last night saying the club had taken in 1.7m with the share issue. Where did that go.?

Vlad's Cayman Islands bank account? :stirrer: :dunno:

Caversham Green
18-06-2013, 12:00 PM
Again, that's not what happened. UBIG announced their intention to go into administration, but they haven't yet followed through on that. So, legally, they are not yet in administration.

It's not the SPL's place to judge on insolvency; they are not qualified to do so. Their rules refer to an "insolvency event", rather than insolvency itself.

However, the SPL's definition of an insolvency event includes "ceasing or forming an intention to cease wholly or substantially to carry on business...". I would argue that putting themselves on an official list of companies that were unable to meet their obligations is forming an intention to cease etc and that there was a very strong case for the penalty to have been applied last season.

CropleyWasGod
18-06-2013, 01:03 PM
However, the SPL's definition of an insolvency event includes "ceasing or forming an intention to cease wholly or substantially to carry on business...". I would argue that putting themselves on an official list of companies that were unable to meet their obligations is forming an intention to cease etc and that there was a very strong case for the penalty to have been applied last season.

Yeah, we're agreeing to differ here. :greengrin

Neil Doncaster said last week that the SPL have lawyers in Lithuania on the case. I am assuming that they have taken their advice. :rolleyes:

Part/Time Supporter
21-06-2013, 06:33 PM
Paul McConville with some interesting (if impractical) thoughts on this issue:

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/in-the-name-of-sporting-integrity-should-the-spfl-relegate-hearts/

Franck Stanton
21-06-2013, 06:58 PM
Bottom line -- YES CHEATING 6-Fingered puddle drinking, in-breds

IWasThere2016
22-06-2013, 08:13 AM
And sure i heard Murray on STV news last night saying the club had taken in 1.7m with the share issue. Where did that go.?

I'm guessing here :wink: but I think there's a good chance it made one or two stops before resting somewhere where a bed-ridden Lithuanian may be able to reach it when required. Or is that too far fetched? :wink:

silverhibee
22-06-2013, 02:58 PM
I'm guessing here :wink: but I think there's a good chance it made one or two stops before resting somewhere where a bed-ridden Lithuanian may be able to reach it when required. Or is that too far fetched? :wink:


Wonder what is in these suitcases these two dodgy guys won't let out of there sight. :devil:


http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/199446-hearts-director-says-a-solution-will-be-found-for-the-club/ :greengrin