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Sylar
11-06-2013, 07:28 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22853305

What the actual f***?

More stringent rules against racism and sectarianism tossed out - the mind truly boggles.

Green&White
11-06-2013, 08:24 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22853305

What the actual f***?

More stringent rules against racism and sectarianism tossed out - the mind truly boggles.

It's gotten to the point that I am ashamed and embarrassed by these money grabbing fat cat clowns that run the football league of my country and team. They make me sick tbh

HibeesLA
11-06-2013, 08:43 PM
It's gotten to the point that I am ashamed and embarrassed by these money grabbing fat cat clowns that run the football league of my country and team. They make me sick tbh


SFA chief executive Stewart Regan explained: "As far as the specific wording and the resolution is concerned, the clubs felt that it was drafted in such a way as to be too onerous; to move to strict liability from where we are now was quite a leap.

With the above quote in mind, I could see why the clubs would vote against this until the wording was more clear. Looking at the article, and taking a bit of a leap, I would imagine that points deductions would come from the behaviour of supporters, and while we know that is probably geared at the OF, it would probably be applied in a such a way that one or 2 fans shouting something could be interpreted by the SFA as needing a points deduction.

Let's hope they get something sorted soon, as they do need to stamp out some of the crap that is sung/chanted at some games.

ballengeich
11-06-2013, 08:45 PM
As I read the report the objection was to details of the specific proposals put forward rather than to the principle. They're going to try to come up with better thought out legislation. That seems reasonable, provided it's done. Replacing one set of rules which don't work with another set which don't work is pointless.

As I haven't seen the full details it's difficult to comment on them, but it reads as if clubs were worried that a system of automatic penalties meant they could be punished for the actions of individuals or small groups over which they have no control.

Sylar
11-06-2013, 09:16 PM
As I read the report the objection was to details of the specific proposals put forward rather than to the principle. They're going to try to come up with better thought out legislation. That seems reasonable, provided it's done. Replacing one set of rules which don't work with another set which don't work is pointless.

As I haven't seen the full details it's difficult to comment on them, but it reads as if clubs were worried that a system of automatic penalties meant they could be punished for the actions of individuals or small groups over which they have no control.

I can't agree with that ballengeich.

The best (and evidently only) way to deal with these clubs (all 3 of them) who's support persistently break the rules regarding sectarian/racist behaviour is to hit them where it hurts. These clubs have stood idly by for years and profited from the prejudiced pish associated with their clubs whilst dismissing, downplaying or failing to attack the problem head on. Paltry fines, stadium bans for a small portion of those who partake in such activities and the odd slap on the wrist - completely absolves the clubs of responsibility.

Start punishing the clubs and they'll be quick to take action or at least seeing their actions impact on their clubs might finally rattle home the message to those who would willingly participate that this archaic pish needs nipped in the bud.

The SFA need to to have set penalties, clear guidelines and absolutely no ambiguity - clubs have had years to prove they've "acted accordingly" in trying to stamp out sectarian and racial chants from their fans yet such things are still rife.

These clubs (we all know who they are) want to continue raking in money from the mutants who partake in such behaviour but don't want to be held accountable for failing to eradicate the poisonous element of their support because we all know that it isn't a minority and they would be hurt most of all.

lEXO
11-06-2013, 09:42 PM
I can't agree with that ballengeich.

The best (and evidently only) way to deal with these clubs (all 3 of them) who's support persistently break the rules regarding sectarian/racist behaviour is to hit them where it hurts. These clubs have stood idly by for years and profited from the prejudiced pish associated with their clubs whilst dismissing, downplaying or failing to attack the problem head on. Paltry fines, stadium bans for a small portion of those who partake in such activities and the odd slap on the wrist - completely absolves the clubs of responsibility.

Start punishing the clubs and they'll be quick to take action or at least seeing their actions impact on their clubs might finally rattle home the message to those who would willingly participate that this archaic pish needs nipped in the bud.

The SFA need to to have set penalties, clear guidelines and absolutely no ambiguity - clubs have had years to prove they've "acted accordingly" in trying to stamp out sectarian and racial chants from their fans yet such things are still rife.

These clubs (we all know who they are) want to continue raking in money from the mutants who partake in such behaviour but don't want to be held accountable for failing to eradicate the poisonous element of their support because we all know that it isn't a minority and they would be hurt most of all.Quality post. :top marks

hibsbollah
11-06-2013, 09:58 PM
I can't agree with that ballengeich.

The best (and evidently only) way to deal with these clubs (all 3 of them) who's support persistently break the rules regarding sectarian/racist behaviour is to hit them where it hurts. These clubs have stood idly by for years and profited from the prejudiced pish associated with their clubs whilst dismissing, downplaying or failing to attack the problem head on. Paltry fines, stadium bans for a small portion of those who partake in such activities and the odd slap on the wrist - completely absolves the clubs of responsibility.

Start punishing the clubs and they'll be quick to take action or at least seeing their actions impact on their clubs might finally rattle home the message to those who would willingly participate that this archaic pish needs nipped in the bud.

The SFA need to to have set penalties, clear guidelines and absolutely no ambiguity - clubs have had years to prove they've "acted accordingly" in trying to stamp out sectarian and racial chants from their fans yet such things are still rife.

These clubs (we all know who they are) want to continue raking in money from the mutants who partake in such behaviour but don't want to be held accountable for failing to eradicate the poisonous element of their support because we all know that it isn't a minority and they would be hurt most of all.

Couldn't agree more :agree:

...but its Scotland we're talking about here:ostrich:

Prof. Shaggy
11-06-2013, 10:34 PM
I had the privilege today of being asked to be the supervising teacher at a Show Racism the Red Card session at my school. The rep was one of my boyhood heroes (if I hadn't been in my 30s at the time) - Mickey Weir. I was hugely impressed and very proud of his obvious commitment to this cause, by his understanding of the issues and the way he put his message across to the kids.

I heard about the SFA vote on the way home.
Quite apart from the very valid points posters have made in this thread, my reaction is, how could Regan manage to be so inept as to screw up a vote on the issue of racism in sport? All this work that is being done across Scotland and he hands out the headline - "SFA votes against racism sanctions".

Can he do anything right?

down-the-slope
11-06-2013, 10:42 PM
I think anyone who went to this seasons semi and final would be all to aware that 'those in glass houses should not throw stones' - among the great majority were a sizable number of truly shameful people who were there 'supporting' our club - while a whole society solution needs to be found, simply making clubs fully responsible for individuals who they may have no control of is not wholly the answer.

So if a bunch of individuals who have been drinking enter Asda and proceed to abuse someone in a wheel chair - Asda should be shut down for a few days as punishment :rolleyes:

Gerard
11-06-2013, 11:32 PM
It is not rocket science to treat all people with respect. The only thing that should matter is how good a player plays. The race, religion or creed of a player should never be a reason for abuse. If people can not act in a civil manner to others then they should not support a football team period.

SurferRosa
12-06-2013, 12:12 AM
I had the privilege today of being asked to be the supervising teacher at a Show Racism the Red Card session at my school. The rep was one of my boyhood heroes (if I hadn't been in my 30s at the time) - Mickey Weir. I was hugely impressed and very proud of his obvious commitment to this cause, by his understanding of the issues and the way he put his message across to the kids.

I heard about the SFA vote on the way home.
Quite apart from the very valid points posters have made in this thread, my reaction is, how could Regan manage to be so inept as to screw up a vote on the issue of racism in sport? All this work that is being done across Scotland and he hands out the headline - "SFA votes against racism sanctions".

Can he do anything right?

I think we all know the answer to that..

Hibercelona
12-06-2013, 02:48 AM
The issue with the whole points deduction idea is that people who aren't even fans of the club could turn up and stir up a fuss just to get that clubs points deducted.

I don't blame them for rejecting it at all. It's common sense in all honesty.

Beefster
12-06-2013, 05:51 AM
I think anyone who went to this seasons semi and final would be all to aware that 'those in glass houses should not throw stones' - among the great majority were a sizable number of truly shameful people who were there 'supporting' our club - while a whole society solution needs to be found, simply making clubs fully responsible for individuals who they may have no control of is not wholly the answer.

So if a bunch of individuals who have been drinking enter Asda and proceed to abuse someone in a wheel chair - Asda should be shut down for a few days as punishment :rolleyes:

If those individuals kept going into Asda every second week and Asda did hee-haw about it - yes, Asda should be held responsible.

down-the-slope
12-06-2013, 06:21 AM
If those individuals kept going into Asda every second week and Asda did hee-haw about it - yes, Asda should be held responsible.


but what if they were Tesco staff just doing it to get Asda into bother.... or what if Asda did there best to stop them...but they just went to an 'away' store and did the same thing

football needs to play its (and a much better) part in making clear whats not acceptable, but it should not be held more responsible than other public venues would be for the behaviour of that general public using their facilities.

if the police actually used the law as it stands more readily that would be an improvement

hibsbollah
12-06-2013, 06:52 AM
but what if they were Tesco staff just doing it to get Asda into bother.... or what if Asda did there best to stop them...but they just went to an 'away' store and did the same thing

football needs to play its (and a much better) part in making clear whats not acceptable, but it should not be held more responsible than other public venues would be for the behaviour of that general public using their facilities.

if the police actually used the law as it stands more readily that would be an improvement

We've all heard the 'what if ten jambos infiltrated our support and started singing racist songs to get us into trouble'-type argument before and it rings hollow. Its never going to happen to any significant extent. You could use that reasoning to reject every measure to deal with anti social behaviour everywhere.

Collective punishment creates Collective responsibility.

Golden Bear
12-06-2013, 07:03 AM
Idiots & morons will always behave like idiots & morons and the possible effect that their behaviour will have on the Club they supposedly "support" will not enter their tiny minds.

Clubs can only do so much and it's up to the Police/Courts to address moronic behaviour.

Sylar
12-06-2013, 08:15 AM
but what if they were Tesco staff just doing it to get Asda into bother.... or what if Asda did there best to stop them...but they just went to an 'away' store and did the same thing

football needs to play its (and a much better) part in making clear whats not acceptable, but it should not be held more responsible than other public venues would be for the behaviour of that general public using their facilities.

if the police actually used the law as it stands more readily that would be an improvement

Sadly, rightly or wrongly, this is endemic of the Scottish attitude towards the problem - "no ma problem pal".

Football hasn't done enough to eradicate the problem as a first point. Sure, the clubs occasionally come out and state their "disgust" and "condemn" those who are responsible but what have they done? Rangers appeared to make good strides during the era when they banned the Billy Boys but eventually, their fans just found other stuff to sing about. I recall interviews with David Murray who was incredibly nonchalant about the whole thing as if he was almost offended he was being asked about it.

These clubs realise how much money they make (and have done for years) from the bigots who turn up on a weekly basis. It's therefore no surprise that they've done sweet F.A. about the problem as they view these people as signs and taking action against what is a much bigger portion than they would care to admit, will hurt them in the pocket. If they're unwilling to lose an economic source of income then bugger them, hit them in the next most painful place.

I agree that the police have the authority to do more than they presently do but the clubs should be actively trying to do something themselves before passing the buck - something they've done beautifully for years now.

GreenOnions
12-06-2013, 08:17 AM
I have to say that I agree with the action taken by the clubs.

There is already legislation in place to deal with sectarian or racist behaviour. The police can use this to prosecute where they believe an offence has been committed.

The debate here is to what extent and how clubs can be held responsible - how are we to decide what constitutes a reasonable effort by the club to prevent these chants etc? If a club can demonstrate that it has taken reasonable steps should it be held responsible for the actions of all its' supporters?

IMHO it's not easy to answer these questions. Whatever set of rules are decided upon could be immediately called into question by many examples where there are mitigating circumstances.

There are also questions regarding exactly how a club could take additional steps to prevent incidents without unreasonably infringing the rights of the vast majority of well-behaved fans. For example - would it be reasonable for clubs to investigate the backgrounds of those convicted of sectarian or racist behaviour in order that they can screen more thoroughly ticket applications from others in the same socio-economic groups, post-codes etc? As has been raised by another poster - what about deliberate chanting by individuals impersonating supporters of another team in order to precipitate action against a club they dislike?

I'm certainly not saying that no changes should be made. I'm just saying that there are dangers in taking action without sufficient thought and debate.

FriendofDurutti
12-06-2013, 08:18 AM
So we're all OK with Hibs being docked points if 'Rudi Skacel is a f*****g refugee' gets another outing? Or Paul Hartley is gay (or does it not cover homophobia?). Not songs sung by any 'infiltrators', but large numbers of our own fans. To be fair I haven't heard the delightful 'Edinburgh song' actually inside a stadium for many years, but would the rules only cover behaviour in the ground, or fans outside?

Also, presumably it will still be OK to sing abuse about the criminal and drug taking proclivities of weejies, or the rat eating of Gorgie slum dwellers. Or maybe not. It all becomes quite difficult if you want to make binding rules of behaviour and then punish clubs when their fans breach them.

To be honest, I'm not that concerned about sectarianism in Scotland. The history of discrimination against Roman Catholics in Scotland is long and shameful, but, despite the behaviour of some individuals, in societal terms it is finished and its not coming back. The theatrical displays of Orangism and Irish Republicanism don't really matter to anyone not involved, and will continue to dwindle as Scotland becomes a more secular society.

Racism is still a major issue in Scotland, but I don't really think that docking points from Football teams is a major priority in addressing it, so I'm not that disappointed in this decision.

Aldo
12-06-2013, 08:22 AM
Racism and sectarianism are exactly the same IMHO.

I personally think they would struggle to deduct points if they've done nowt to the Bigot Brothers for years.

I will say this however anyone hearing any racist comments towards players or fans alike should be dealt with in the appropriate manner and banned from ER for life.

My opinion mind

JimBHibees
12-06-2013, 08:25 AM
UEFA and FIFA show you exactly the wrong way to do it with their joke fines against mostly Italian clubs for racist chants. It is no surprise that the problem is now getting worse than before. They should have punished Spain for their appalling abuse of England black players a number of years ago however they didnt. In Scotland where the Rangers fiasco last year showed you with crystal clear clarity where the power is in the game and it sure isnt with the SFA is it any wonder that clubs are mealy mouthed about this. It is 2013 and the same nonsense is coming out at games and society when only a few years ago there seemed to be some progress being made. It is shameful for the Scottish football authorities that it was only when UEFA started taking an interest in chanting at Rangers games than the club seemed to actually do something about it. The cowardice in the game is very apparent in this country. Do what is right not what certain clubs will be happy with.

Aldo
12-06-2013, 08:28 AM
UEFA and FIFA show you exactly the wrong way to do it with their joke fines against mostly Italian clubs for racist chants. It is no surprise that the problem is now getting worse than before. They should have punished Spain for their appalling abuse of England black players a number of years ago however they didnt. In Scotland where the Rangers fiasco last year showed you with crystal clear clarity where the power is in the game and it sure isnt with the SFA is it any wonder that clubs are mealy mouthed about this. It is 2013 and the same nonsense is coming out at games and society when only a few years ago there seemed to be some progress being made. It is shameful for the Scottish football authorities that it was only when UEFA started taking an interest in chanting at Rangers games than the club seemed to actually do something about it. The cowardice in the game is very apparent in this country. Do what is right not what certain clubs will be happy with.

Spot on Jim.

JimBHibees
12-06-2013, 08:35 AM
So we're all OK with Hibs being docked points if 'Rudi Skacel is a f*****g refugee' gets another outing? Or Paul Hartley is gay (or does it not cover homophobia?). Not songs sung by any 'infiltrators', but large numbers of our own fans. To be fair I haven't heard the delightful 'Edinburgh song' actually inside a stadium for many years, but would the rules only cover behaviour in the ground, or fans outside?

Also, presumably it will still be OK to sing abuse about the criminal and drug taking proclivities of weejies, or the rat eating of Gorgie slum dwellers. Or maybe not. It all becomes quite difficult if you want to make binding rules of behaviour and then punish clubs when their fans breach them.

To be honest, I'm not that concerned about sectarianism in Scotland. The history of discrimination against Roman Catholics in Scotland is long and shameful, but, despite the behaviour of some individuals, in societal terms it is finished and its not coming back. The theatrical displays of Orangism and Irish Republicanism don't really matter to anyone not involved, and will continue to dwindle as Scotland becomes a more secular society.

Racism is still a major issue in Scotland, but I don't really think that docking points from Football teams is a major priority in addressing it, so I'm not that disappointed in this decision.

If Hibs fans clearly sang they songs at a game when the rules were in place then yes we should be punished also.

Killiehibbie
12-06-2013, 08:50 AM
We've got cctv all over the place and police with video cameras. What's stopping them using the existing laws to get convictions?

ballengeich
12-06-2013, 08:53 AM
I can't agree with that ballengeich.

The best (and evidently only) way to deal with these clubs (all 3 of them) who's support persistently break the rules regarding sectarian/racist behaviour is to hit them where it hurts. These clubs have stood idly by for years and profited from the prejudiced pish associated with their clubs whilst dismissing, downplaying or failing to attack the problem head on. Paltry fines, stadium bans for a small portion of those who partake in such activities and the odd slap on the wrist - completely absolves the clubs of responsibility.

Start punishing the clubs and they'll be quick to take action or at least seeing their actions impact on their clubs might finally rattle home the message to those who would willingly participate that this archaic pish needs nipped in the bud.

The SFA need to to have set penalties, clear guidelines and absolutely no ambiguity - clubs have had years to prove they've "acted accordingly" in trying to stamp out sectarian and racial chants from their fans yet such things are still rife.

These clubs (we all know who they are) want to continue raking in money from the mutants who partake in such behaviour but don't want to be held accountable for failing to eradicate the poisonous element of their support because we all know that it isn't a minority and they would be hurt most of all.

I've no great disagreement with your reply to me, but what makes you confident that the particular proposals that were put forward would achieve what you and I want to see? I haven't read the details, but the people who voted have, and have concluded that the proposals were either ineffective or unfair and want to work on producing something better.

I was simply saying that the headlines suggesting that the SFA are rejecting anti-bigotry proposals did not give an accurate picture of what has actually happened - headlines often don't.

While I agree with that the main problem is in three clubs it's not entirely restricted to them. I've heard some embarrassing things at ER over the years, Skacel is a refugee one being an obvious recent one, and won't be surprised if similar chants occur in future. There's a lot of clubs with an unpleasant minority.

down-the-slope
12-06-2013, 10:26 AM
We've all heard the 'what if ten jambos infiltrated our support and started singing racist songs to get us into trouble'-type argument before and it rings hollow. Its never going to happen to any significant extent. You could use that reasoning to reject every measure to deal with anti social behaviour everywhere.

Collective punishment creates Collective responsibility.


You know as well as i do that we have enough knobs in our own 'support' and don't need any help from elsewhere to breach levels of general decency - having heard some of our own referring to the Managers Irish roots in a manner that that was racist even this season as example....How can management stop that?

hibsbollah
12-06-2013, 12:04 PM
You know as well as i do that we have enough knobs in our own 'support' and don't need any help from elsewhere to breach levels of general decency - having heard some of our own referring to the Managers Irish roots in a manner that that was racist even this season as example....How can management stop that?

I agree 'we dont need any help from elsewhere' in relation to badly behaved fans, but im not sure what thats got to do with your posts :dunno: You said; 'If people are going into Asda and abusing the disabled will the supermarket be punished?' and 'what if they are tesco staff trying to get Asda into bother'.That reads as if a)you dont think the clubs have a responsibility to deal with ASB and b) Fans being antisocial might in fact be other clubs' fans. If ive misunderstood the analogy maybe you could explain it to me differently?

As to your final rhetorical question; id say the club can stop what you describe by instituting a culture where we make it clear again and again that the club and the majority of the fans wont tolerate racism. Todays headlines take us further away from achieving that.

--------
12-06-2013, 02:08 PM
I can't agree with that ballengeich.

The best (and evidently only) way to deal with these clubs (all 3 of them) who's support persistently break the rules regarding sectarian/racist behaviour is to hit them where it hurts. These clubs have stood idly by for years and profited from the prejudiced pish associated with their clubs whilst dismissing, downplaying or failing to attack the problem head on. Paltry fines, stadium bans for a small portion of those who partake in such activities and the odd slap on the wrist - completely absolves the clubs of responsibility.

Start punishing the clubs and they'll be quick to take action or at least seeing their actions impact on their clubs might finally rattle home the message to those who would willingly participate that this archaic pish needs nipped in the bud.

The SFA need to to have set penalties, clear guidelines and absolutely no ambiguity - clubs have had years to prove they've "acted accordingly" in trying to stamp out sectarian and racial chants from their fans yet such things are still rife.

These clubs (we all know who they are) want to continue raking in money from the mutants who partake in such behaviour but don't want to be held accountable for failing to eradicate the poisonous element of their support because we all know that it isn't a minority and they would be hurt most of all.


I disagree. We're talking here about the wording of binding legislation to which all SFA member clubs will be subject. That legislation has got to be workable and fair to all clubs.

And no, we DON'T all know "who they are" (I assume you mean Rangers, Celtic and Hearts). I've frequently heard blatantly racist abuse aimed at Hibs players from the home support at ER. Of course we need to deal with racist and sectarian chanting and singing, and the abuse directed at individual players by individual "supporters", but we need to get the wording of the rules right, and we need to get our heads around the fact that this is an issue affecting every single club in the SFA.

Hibernian as a club have worked hard to get rid of the old Irish Republican ethos that I remember at ER in the 1960's and 70's. It used to be perfectly acceptable to sing about all being "off to Dublin in the green - the bayonets slash the Orange sash to the rattle of the Thomson gun ..." I blush to admit it - I sang those songs myself, as did a large proportion of the Hibs support at that time. Nevertheless, it's still there, and we need to face up to that and deal with it.

I think I can say that I've never abused a player of any team for the colour of his skin, but I know that I've had to look hard at and change the way I talk and think about other people over my lifetime. Old attitudes die hard, I'm afraid, and what was borderline OK forty years ago is certainly NOT OK now. Actually, it never was OK.

At the root of the problem facing football IMO is the a settled, fixed idea in many football supporters' heads that what would be totally unacceptable in any other social setting or context somehow is OK in a football stadium. So it's OK to subject a player we don't like to violent and obscene abuse in a football ground regardless of the people around us.

A good friend of mine was at the Cup Final with her family. The reason she was there was because her niece is Alan Maybury's wife. She had brought some of the family with her, on complimentary tickets from Alan himself. They had to put up with a crowd of drunken Hibs supporters a few rows behind them giving Alan pelters the whole game for no more reason than that he once played for Hearts. They covered his religion, his sexuality, his family ties, his parents, his wife, his children, the lot. Complaining simply resulted in threats of violence. I'm absolutely sure neither she nor anyone with her will ever come to watch Hibs again. The stewards and police did nothing.

Now were those guys regulars from the East Stand, or were they fair-weather fans just there because it was the Final? If they were regulars, then it's about time someone dealt with them and their poisonous attitudes. By "someone" I mean the club, the stewards, and the police. If they were just there because it was the Final, how can Hibs deal with them? A ban doesn't work - they don't come that often as it is. Fine the club? Points deduction? They won't care. The regular fans who weren't involved in the abuse will be the ones to suffer. Even fan intervention won't work - what do yahoos like them care about what other fans think of them? Some people DID object to their language - and were threatened with violence while the police and stewards looked on. Other people just looked the other way.

Regulations and laws need to be in place to deal with racism and sectarianism in football, but the real lasting change won't happen until it's accepted that inside a football stadium is no different from anywhere else - racist, sectarian and ALL other sorts of vile, dehumanising abuse is totally unacceptable, which isn't going to go down well with those who still think that it's OK to sing about a foreign-born player being a "refugee", for example.

Sylar
12-06-2013, 02:50 PM
I disagree. We're talking here about the wording of binding legislation to which all SFA member clubs will be subject. That legislation has got to be workable and fair to all clubs.

And no, we DON'T all know "who they are" (I assume you mean Rangers, Celtic and Hearts). I've frequently heard blatantly racist abuse aimed at Hibs players from the home support at ER. Of course we need to deal with racist and sectarian chanting and singing, and the abuse directed at individual players by individual "supporters", but we need to get the wording of the rules right, and we need to get our heads around the fact that this is an issue affecting every single club in the SFA.

A well balanced and thought out post Doddie, thank you :aok:

I agree that any new legislation has to be clear but the suggestion yesterday was that the opposition was due to the potential ramifications being 'too harsh' and clubs were unwilling to agree to them on that basis (granted, that might simply be media spin and misinterpretation to a degree). By 'being fair' to all clubs though, that doesn't mean it should be littered with menial punishments, undefined boundaries of acceptability and general ambiguity to preserve those few clubs who are likely to be more regularly impacted than others.

My point regarding the 3 was not throwing up blinkers and stating it doesn't happen outwith Celtc, The Rangers and Hearts - indeed, we have our idiots as do most clubs who engage in singing idiotic songs. However, it's not so widespread and the other clubs outwith those 3 would be at risk from sporadic incidences of such behaviour whereas the clubs I refer to have been hauled over the coals many times in the past with very little action actually being taken against them (by the SFA/SPL anyway).

The argument of 'people in glass houses' does have credence but it's not a reason to avoid taking a no tolerance approach across the game as a whole because it might impact on us. Of course it might cost us financially or in terms of points but if it takes hardline action to make the clubs and fans sit back and assess the types of atmospheres which actually do exist amongst their supporter base, I'm all for it. The archaic ideals in football that somehow discriminatory chants/taunts/remarks are acceptable are unrivalled in any other sport because quite simply, they're not tolerated in any other sport. A quick search highlights just how unique a problem this is to football and the dire requirement to do something about it.


Hibernian as a club have worked hard to get rid of the old Irish Republican ethos that I remember at ER in the 1960's and 70's. It used to be perfectly acceptable to sing about all being "off to Dublin in the green - the bayonets slash the Orange sash to the rattle of the Thomson gun ..." I blush to admit it - I sang those songs myself, as did a large proportion of the Hibs support at that time. Nevertheless, it's still there, and we need to face up to that and deal with it.

I think I can say that I've never abused a player of any team for the colour of his skin, but I know that I've had to look hard at and change the way I talk and think about other people over my lifetime. Old attitudes die hard, I'm afraid, and what was borderline OK forty years ago is certainly NOT OK now. Actually, it never was OK.

I'm certainly too young to recall the days where rife Irish Republicanism was ever-present at Easter Road but that it no longer exists at the club is a testament to the hard work of the club and it's fans, showing just how possible such actions are IF the club are willing to put in the groundwork.

That's where Celtc fall down by comparison - their pro-Republican fans, IRA sympathising idiots and nauseating faux-Irishness could be stamped out if the club would stand up and take a no tolerance approach to those who perpetrate such nonsense. Yet it still exists and they would come out and try and convince everyone it's a minority - if it were such a minority, a) it would be easy to identify and stop those involved and b) the club wouldn't think twice about doing a) as it wouldn't hurt them in the pocket so much. Hardline approaches are all that's left as quite clearly, the clubs (not just Celtc) aren't interested in turning away so much potential revenue.


At the root of the problem facing football IMO is the a settled, fixed idea in many football supporters' heads that what would be totally unacceptable in any other social setting or context somehow is OK in a football stadium. So it's OK to subject a player we don't like to violent and obscene abuse in a football ground regardless of the people around us.

Yet, again, this doesn't exist so widely in other sports. Although I don't believe for one second that racism and sectarianism are a footballing problem, they are indeed a problem in football to the extent of which is alien to most other sports. No-nonsense approaches are taken to the odd isolated episodes of discriminatory comments which come from sports personnel (be it fans, coaches, players, journalists or commentators) in the United States (see the response from last week when Ohio State University sacked their president for mentioning "those damned Catholics" in response to Notre Dame as the most recent example) and widespread discrimination just isn't present in any fan chants or songs. I don't know what's different about the football fan mentality compared to other sports :confused:


A good friend of mine was at the Cup Final with her family. The reason she was there was because her niece is Alan Maybury's wife. She had brought some of the family with her, on complimentary tickets from Alan himself. They had to put up with a crowd of drunken Hibs supporters a few rows behind them giving Alan pelters the whole game for no more reason than that he once played for Hearts. They covered his religion, his sexuality, his family ties, his parents, his wife, his children, the lot. Complaining simply resulted in threats of violence. I'm absolutely sure neither she nor anyone with her will ever come to watch Hibs again. The stewards and police did nothing.

Now were those guys regulars from the East Stand, or were they fair-weather fans just there because it was the Final? If they were regulars, then it's about time someone dealt with them and their poisonous attitudes. By "someone" I mean the club, the stewards, and the police. If they were just there because it was the Final, how can Hibs deal with them? A ban doesn't work - they don't come that often as it is. Fine the club? Points deduction? They won't care. The regular fans who weren't involved in the abuse will be the ones to suffer. Even fan intervention won't work - what do yahoos like them care about what other fans think of them? Some people DID object to their language - and were threatened with violence while the police and stewards looked on. Other people just looked the other way.

That is indeed shocking, particularly the threats of violence and is in no way acceptable. Perhaps this is where the legislation is slightly blurred and perhaps why it was tossed aside as such behaviour should be covered by the public order offense legislation and dealt with by the police, particularly when threats of violence are issued. I dare say, being that the tickets for the final were so heavily regulated, that it wouldn't be difficult for the club to track them down and act accordingly - same for incidents which occur in Easter Road - however, I'm aware 'away' tickets are a bit harder to monitor/police by the clubs which is, I'll concede, indeed an area of contention in the argument for punishing the clubs themselves.


Regulations and laws need to be in place to deal with racism and sectarianism in football, but the real lasting change won't happen until it's accepted that inside a football stadium is no different from anywhere else - racist, sectarian and ALL other sorts of vile, dehumanising abuse is totally unacceptable, which isn't going to go down well with those who still think that it's OK to sing about a foreign-born player being a "refugee", for example.

Agreed - again, the problem extends outwith football and it's before people get into any football setting that they need to be made aware that such discriminatory behaviour is beyond the pale and unacceptable in all forms. However, inaction is not the answer and the existing legislation is insufficient. Granted, that doesn't advocate change for change's sake but if indeed media reports about fear of too stringent punishments are accurate, it's a huge step backward IMO.

marinello59
12-06-2013, 03:24 PM
I disagree. We're talking here about the wording of binding legislation to which all SFA member clubs will be subject. That legislation has got to be workable and fair to all clubs.

And no, we DON'T all know "who they are" (I assume you mean Rangers, Celtic and Hearts). I've frequently heard blatantly racist abuse aimed at Hibs players from the home support at ER. Of course we need to deal with racist and sectarian chanting and singing, and the abuse directed at individual players by individual "supporters", but we need to get the wording of the rules right, and we need to get our heads around the fact that this is an issue affecting every single club in the SFA.

Hibernian as a club have worked hard to get rid of the old Irish Republican ethos that I remember at ER in the 1960's and 70's. It used to be perfectly acceptable to sing about all being "off to Dublin in the green - the bayonets slash the Orange sash to the rattle of the Thomson gun ..." I blush to admit it - I sang those songs myself, as did a large proportion of the Hibs support at that time. Nevertheless, it's still there, and we need to face up to that and deal with it.

I think I can say that I've never abused a player of any team for the colour of his skin, but I know that I've had to look hard at and change the way I talk and think about other people over my lifetime. Old attitudes die hard, I'm afraid, and what was borderline OK forty years ago is certainly NOT OK now. Actually, it never was OK.

At the root of the problem facing football IMO is the a settled, fixed idea in many football supporters' heads that what would be totally unacceptable in any other social setting or context somehow is OK in a football stadium. So it's OK to subject a player we don't like to violent and obscene abuse in a football ground regardless of the people around us.

A good friend of mine was at the Cup Final with her family. The reason she was there was because her niece is Alan Maybury's wife. She had brought some of the family with her, on complimentary tickets from Alan himself. They had to put up with a crowd of drunken Hibs supporters a few rows behind them giving Alan pelters the whole game for no more reason than that he once played for Hearts. They covered his religion, his sexuality, his family ties, his parents, his wife, his children, the lot. Complaining simply resulted in threats of violence. I'm absolutely sure neither she nor anyone with her will ever come to watch Hibs again. The stewards and police did nothing.

Now were those guys regulars from the East Stand, or were they fair-weather fans just there because it was the Final? If they were regulars, then it's about time someone dealt with them and their poisonous attitudes. By "someone" I mean the club, the stewards, and the police. If they were just there because it was the Final, how can Hibs deal with them? A ban doesn't work - they don't come that often as it is. Fine the club? Points deduction? They won't care. The regular fans who weren't involved in the abuse will be the ones to suffer. Even fan intervention won't work - what do yahoos like them care about what other fans think of them? Some people DID object to their language - and were threatened with violence while the police and stewards looked on. Other people just looked the other way.

Regulations and laws need to be in place to deal with racism and sectarianism in football, but the real lasting change won't happen until it's accepted that inside a football stadium is no different from anywhere else - racist, sectarian and ALL other sorts of vile, dehumanising abuse is totally unacceptable, which isn't going to go down well with those who still think that it's OK to sing about a foreign-born player being a "refugee", for example.

I agree with every word. That's an excellent post Doddie.