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...WentToMowAnSPL
07-06-2013, 12:21 AM
The one position I've not heard anyone even speculate about .... Just shows how we have fallen on our feet with Ben #GGTTH

J-C
07-06-2013, 04:51 AM
At the moment he'll do but still has his faults. Although a good shot stopper and communicator, he's still a bit dodgy at times under the cross ball, would like to see us getting a good young prospect in for the future, someone around the 22-23 years age.

mikewynne
07-06-2013, 05:21 AM
At the moment he'll do but still has his faults. Although a good shot stopper and communicator, he's still a bit dodgy at times under the cross ball, would like to see us getting a good young prospect in for the future, someone around the 22-23 years age.

Let's face it, if he was much better than he is he wouldn't be with us. For our level he is a great keeper and we should be grateful that he is with us. Compared to what we have had in recent years he's a joy to watch.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 05:50 AM
Let's face it, if he was much better than he is he wouldn't be with us. For our level he is a great keeper and we should be grateful that he is with us. Compared to what we have had in recent years he's a joy to watch.

I don't agree, he cost us quite a few goals last season, I don't renember the Dundee utd, Motherwell, hearts or even Dundee at the end of the season complaining that keepers cost them goals.

The amount of goals we lose from crosses that he should have got concerns me and I think its something pat should be considering. If its the same next season.

JDHibs
07-06-2013, 06:58 AM
I don't agree, he cost us quite a few goals last season, I don't renember the Dundee utd, Motherwell, hearts or even Dundee at the end of the season complaining that keepers cost them goals.

The amount of goals we lose from crosses that he should have got concerns me and I think its something pat should be considering. If its the same next season.

Hearts fans hate Jamie McDonald, his positioning is horrendous.

Dundde dropped Rab Douglas for Steve Simonsen because of his performances.

Darren Randolph was too good for this level and its now away to Birmingham.

I cant comment on the Dundee Utd goalkeeper, but all the other teams have goalkeeper issues!

ronaldo7
07-06-2013, 07:06 AM
I don't agree, he cost us quite a few goals last season, I don't renember the Dundee utd, Motherwell, hearts or even Dundee at the end of the season complaining that keepers cost them goals.

The amount of goals we lose from crosses that he should have got concerns me and I think its something pat should be considering. If its the same next season.

Jamie McDonald has been caught out on several occasions last season with shots from distance. He's the worst Hearts goalie for a number of years now.

Give me Big Ben anytime.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 07:08 AM
Hearts fans hate Jamie McDonald, his positioning is horrendous.

Dundde dropped Rab Douglas for Steve Simonsen because of his performances.

Darren Randolph was too good for this level and its now away to Birmingham.

I cant comment on the Dundee Utd goalkeeper, but all the other teams have goalkeeper issues!

Never noticed McDonald having positional problems and I've never heard any jambo criticize him for it, not*to say what you're saying is wrong, its just not something I've heard and he seems to make few mistakes that cost them goals.

Dundee found a keeper that doesn't cost them goals, that's what I want us to do.

Motherwell found a keeper on the way up that didn't cost them goals, why can't we do that?

Dundee utd have consistently had goalies over the last few years that don't cost them goals, why do we need to have a goalie that does as its all we can expect at this level?

Despite all I've said, I don't mind Williams, there's something likeable about him but I think he's been pretty lucky to get such an easy ride from our support this season.

blackpoolhibs
07-06-2013, 07:10 AM
Have a look at the first goal in the cup final, he's nearly as poor as Mike McDonald at crosses. He's an ok keeper, but he's nowhere near as good as some folk are making out.

If we had not won a lot of these games early on, he'd be getting blamed for some terrible goals we lost. They were swept under the carpet because we managed to get a win. He was horrendous in some of those games, with some terrible mistakes.

Because he saved a few penalty's he gets away with some awful goalkeeping. He did have a good middle to the season, his one on one saves are up there with the best i have seen.

He had become better at coming off his line during that middle period, but it was back to doing superman impressions towards the end of the season.

We crave a good keeper at Hibs, because of all the dross we have had. He's an ok keeper, but by no means irreplaceable.

ronaldo7
07-06-2013, 07:16 AM
Never noticed McDonald having positional problems and I've never heard any jambo criticize him for it, not*to say what you're saying is wrong, its just not something I've heard and he seems to make few mistakes that cost them goals.

Dundee found a keeper that doesn't cost them goals, that's what I want us to do.

Motherwell found a keeper on the way up that didn't cost them goals, why can't we do that?

Dundee utd have consistently had goalies over the last few years that don't cost them goals, why do we need to have a goalie that does as its all we can expect at this level?

Despite all I've said, I don't mind Williams, there's something likeable about him but I think he's been pretty lucky to get such an easy ride from our support this season.

He started quite well, but is still suspect at cross balls. His penalty saves, and good positional sense in one on ones also saved him:wink:

He needs to work on those cross balls.

frazeHFC
07-06-2013, 07:29 AM
The penalty saves, especially Aberdeen in the Cup, was brilliant, like scoring a goal! Overall really like him, maybe 1 or 2 things to work on but best goalie for a number of years.

blackpoolhibs
07-06-2013, 07:42 AM
The penalty saves, especially Aberdeen in the Cup, was brilliant, like scoring a goal! Overall really like him, maybe 1 or 2 things to work on but best goalie for a number of years.

I just want our keepers to save shots, come for crosses and generally do the basics right. He was directly at fault for way too many goals we conceded last season. Graham Stack would have been slaughtered for the same mistakes.

As i said, he's far from irreplaceable.

JimBHibees
07-06-2013, 09:58 AM
Never noticed McDonald having positional problems and I've never heard any jambo criticize him for it, not*to say what you're saying is wrong, its just not something I've heard and he seems to make few mistakes that cost them goals.

Dundee found a keeper that doesn't cost them goals, that's what I want us to do.

Motherwell found a keeper on the way up that didn't cost them goals, why can't we do that?

Dundee utd have consistently had goalies over the last few years that don't cost them goals, why do we need to have a goalie that does as its all we can expect at this level?

Despite all I've said, I don't mind Williams, there's something likeable about him but I think he's been pretty lucky to get such an easy ride from our support this season.

Really personally think MacDonald is a very poor keeper also dont rate Czierniak much.

Ben is a big improvement however the derby and the final showed he could be more decisive on crosses.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 10:10 AM
Given some of the charlatans we've had in goal the last ten years, I'm stunned at some of the comments on this thread - Williams is the best goalkeeper that we have had for many years, by an absolute mile.

Yes, he has cost us goals, show me a goalkeeper who doesn't - De Gea cost £18M and lost some very soft goals in his first season at Utd; Peter Cech has made some howlers over the years.

Williams' first season was excellent overall. Between how comfortable he is with the ball at his feet, his kicking ability with right or left, and his general composure, we were under much less pressure last year than in any other recent season. In addition, his agility and reactions make him a formidable SPL goalkeeper, and he is at a great age for his position - he also didn't miss a single game through injury, which has been a rarity for our GKs.

I really hope that he is here for years to come.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 10:36 AM
Given some of the charlatans we've had in goal the last ten years, I'm stunned at some of the comments on this thread - Williams is the best goalkeeper that we have had for many years, by an absolute mile.

Yes, he has cost us goals, show me a goalkeeper who doesn't - De Gea cost £18M and lost some very soft goals in his first season at Utd; Peter Cech has made some howlers over the years.

Williams' first season was excellent overall. Between how comfortable he is with the ball at his feet, his kicking ability with right or left, and his general composure, we were under much less pressure last year than in any other recent season. In addition, his agility and reactions make him a formidable SPL goalkeeper, and he is at a great age for his position - he also didn't miss a single game through injury, which has been a rarity for our GKs.

I really hope that he is here for years to come.

Yet i bet not many other keepers in the league cost there team a goal like the one Williams did against Dundee Utd.

Don't really know why i'm making this point as i don't mind Williams, he's a terrific shot stopper, i think it just annoys me a bit how people seem to think we should just accept keepers that make as many mistakes as he has this season. Other teams have keepers that don't so i don't think we should.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 10:58 AM
Yet i bet not many other keepers in the league cost there team a goal like the one Williams did against Dundee Utd.

Don't really know why i'm making this point as i don't mind Williams, he's a terrific shot stopper, i think it just annoys me a bit how people seem to think we should just accept keepers that make as many mistakes as he has this season. Other teams have keepers that don't so i don't think we should.

I wouldn't take anyone else's goalkeeper in the SPL, Forster aside. They all make mistakes, and Ben hasn't made that many anyway - certainly way, way less than any of our other goalkeepers in the last ten years.

PeterboroHibee
07-06-2013, 11:05 AM
I really like Williams. He has his faults but then so do most keepers at this level. We conceded a lot less goals this season than we have done in the last few years with Williams consistently in goal, and thats with the defence being changed about quite a bit due to injuries.

Few players are irreplaceable, but our track record with goalkeepers suggests that Williams is well worth hanging on to.

easty
07-06-2013, 11:12 AM
I just want our keepers to save shots, come for crosses and generally do the basics right. He was directly at fault for way too many goals we conceded last season. Graham Stack would have been slaughtered for the same mistakes.

As i said, he's far from irreplaceable.

The bit in bold is very very true.

Treadstone
07-06-2013, 11:20 AM
Caught out badly in cup final by a VERY good cross, wasn't the only one. Noticeable in last league game that he punched and punched well. This is arguably the highest level he has played at and I'd rather stick with him than go fumbling about in a market ie goalkeepers that we have done abysmally in the last 10 years.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 11:22 AM
The bit in bold is very very true.

Williams is getting cut more slack than Stack because he is miles better than him, and most fans realise the major step up in quality. Stack was given plenty of leeway by the fans until it was obvious that he was never going to be the answer. I felt sorry for him getting injured during his best run of form for us, but he was injury prone, which was another mark against him.

Williams is a vast, vast improvement.

PISTOL1875
07-06-2013, 11:33 AM
Hearts fans hate Jamie McDonald, his positioning is horrendous.

Dundde dropped Rab Douglas for Steve Simonsen because of his performances.

Darren Randolph was too good for this level and its now away to Birmingham.

I cant comment on the Dundee Utd goalkeeper, but all the other teams have goalkeeper issues!


Dundee dropped Rab Douglas because he was injured and could hardly walk let alone kick the ball.

YehButNoBut
07-06-2013, 11:39 AM
Dundee dropped Rab Douglas because he was injured and could hardly walk let alone kick the ball.

Seems there was more to Douglas being dropped than first thought.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rab-douglas-taped-bust-up-dundee-boss-john-brown-1-2959155

Rab Douglas taped bust-up - Dundee boss John Brown

DUNDEE manager John Brown says he would warn other club bosses over signing Rab Douglas after it emerged the goalkeeper taped an explosive bust-up between the two. The keeper was critical of the Dens Park boss and his staff in a recent interview and Brown today has hit back and alleged that the player recorded an argument the pair had.

The former Celtic keeper says he was only informed that the club had signed a replacement, Stoke keeper Steve Simonsen, just before the announcement was made. Douglas also says he was told by Brown to “pack his bags and f*** off”. Brown told the Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/john-brown-urges-clubs-not-1937198): “He’s told a pack of lies and had a dig at people in the backroom staff and myself over the treatment he was given

“He was injured going into the derby game against Dundee United and couldn’t kick a ball. I had a decision to make and we did well to get a quality, Steve Simonson, in at short notice. “When it happened, I gave Rab his place by phoning him to tell him that Steve was coming in. I asked him to come into the office for a chat about the situation. “When he got into the office, the player was raging. He called me a ‘sh*****’ and a ‘c***’.

“I’ve been in the game a long time but I’ve never heard a player talk to a manager in that manner. “I did the only thing I could do after being spoken to in that manner - I told him the collect his gear and f*** off out the building. “He then went out into the corridor and kept shouting abuse at me in front of the youth and some members of the first team squad. It was an attempt to undermine my position there but it didn’t work.

“I could have sacked him there and then for the way he spoke to me but I took into account the years of service he had given the club and placed him on gardening leave. “I didn’t want him about the place but by not sacking him I gave him the chance to keep picking up his wages until the end of his contract on May.”

Taped

Brown said he was willing to give Douglas another chance but was informed by Douglas in a second meeting that the earlier conversation between the pair had been taped. He said: “Despite all that had been said, I was ready to give him another chance a week later and asked him to come in for another meeting.
“That’s when he told me he’d taped the first meeting.

“He’s now saying he’s the fittest he’s ever been. I don’t know if that’s true or not but if any manager comes to me for advice about signing him, I would tell them to be wary of employing him.“Here’s why - he didn’t have the decency to tell me he was recording everything that went on in that room and for me that is a betrayal of trust that is unforgivable.

“I wouldn’t have had a problem with him taping what was said if he’d told me in advance.”

itslegaltender
07-06-2013, 11:42 AM
Best Goalkeeper we have had in years, however he had a poor end to the season. Game at the PBS and cup final good example.

Vault Boy
07-06-2013, 11:42 AM
Williams is getting cut more slack than Stack because is miles better than him, and most fans realise the major step up in quality. Stack was given plenty of leeway by the fans until it was obvious that he was never going to be the answer. I felt sorry for him getting injured during his best run of form for us, but he was injury prone, which was another mark against him.

Williams is a vast, vast improvement.

Agree with pretty much everything you have been saying. Aside from the very start and the very end of the season, Williams made nearly no mistakes this year, and that's excellent for a keeper at any level. Ben has been great for us.

J-C
07-06-2013, 12:00 PM
Maybe bringing in a good back up who can push him a bit and keep him on top of his game.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 12:02 PM
Agree with pretty much everything you have been saying. Aside from the very start and the very end of the season, Williams made nearly no mistakes this year, and that's excellent for a keeper at any level. Ben has been great for us.

Absolutely, and you can see that the back four that plays in front of him (whoever it may be, and there have been many different variations this season) have complete faith in him, which makes a huge difference to many previous incumbents.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 12:05 PM
Maybe bringing in a good back up who can push him a bit and keep him on top of his game.

In theory that would be fine but I really can't see how we can possibly justify spending a significant part of a limited budget in the goalkeeping department. Murdoch won't be on much, and has decent experience and is a good age for a back up keeper.

Plus, Yogi signed 3 goalkeepers (4 including Antell) and the competition did them no favours at all.

J-C
07-06-2013, 12:15 PM
In theory that would be fine but I really can't see how we can possibly justify spending a significant part of a limited budget in the goalkeeping department. Murdoch won't be on much, and has decent experience and is a good age for a back up keeper.

Plus, Yogi signed 3 goalkeepers (4 including Antell) and the competition did them no favours at all.

How about getting shot of Murdoch and using his wages to get a younger keeper in, someone with decent potential and able to push Williams for no.1 spot. I'm not talking bout spending more, just spending wisely.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 12:18 PM
How about getting shot of Murdoch and using his wages to get a younger keeper in, someone with decent potential and able to push Williams for no.1 spot. I'm not talking bout spending more, just spending wisely.

What's wrong with Murdoch as number two?

I really think that keepers is the one area that requires no work at all this summer.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 12:21 PM
What's wrong with Murdoch as number two?

I really think that keepers is the one area that requires no work at all this summer.

Bring back the goalie school :greengrin

Thecat23
07-06-2013, 12:23 PM
Williams won us more points than any other player bar Leigh. He's a great keeper and one who will no doubt keep working on cross balls. We're Hibs ffs we aren't going to be producing or buying world class guys. I think people watch to much of the EPL and try to compare our keeper to them. these guys play and Man U, Chelsea etc.. for a reason. I'm delighted we have such a commanding guy in between the sticks and long may it continue.

Treadstone
07-06-2013, 12:24 PM
I really think that keepers is the one area that requires no work at all this summer.

:agree:
Replace Ben when he makes too many clangers, can't afford to keep him or obvious upgrade can be signed. Currently none of these apply.

pontius pilate
07-06-2013, 12:27 PM
I'd say looking at Ben and the way he conducts himself he is a good keeper who has had a decent 1st season under his belt.
Kicking- Great kicking ability with both feet.
Communication- this is one of the areas I feel could improve maybe he got nervous with having a non tried back 4 in front of him and couldn't communicate as he wanted.
Saves- Bread and butter for a keeper great shot stopper spreads himself to make the target smaller and him bigger narrows the angles well and his penalty stop record speaks for itself.
Crosses- another area for improvement started if well but seemed to fade again I could put tie this in with the communication point expecting the defenders to help out.
As others have said a Keepers do make mistakes that standout and do cost their teams points but they also do the opposite by saving alot of points for the team.

The most loneliest position on a field is the keeper.
Improvements will come this season for sure

JimBHibees
07-06-2013, 12:28 PM
Williams is getting cut more slack than Stack because is miles better than him, and most fans realise the major step up in quality. Stack was given plenty of leeway by the fans until it was obvious that he was never going to be the answer. I felt sorry for him getting injured during his best run of form for us, but he was injury prone, which was another mark against him.

Williams is a vast, vast improvement.

Agree with that if you think Williams is poor at crosses what about Stack, the number of headed goals from 4 yards out and centre of the goal when he was in the nets was incredible.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 12:33 PM
Williams won us more points than any other player bar Leigh. He's a great keeper and one who will no doubt keep working on cross balls. We're Hibs ffs we aren't going to be producing or buying world class guys. I think people watch to much of the EPL and try to compare our keeper to them. these guys play and Man U, Chelsea etc.. for a reason. I'm delighted we have such a commanding guy in between the sticks and long may it continue.

I absolutely detest that line that seems to have been trotted out a lot this season, not saying he's world class but the guy motherwell just sold to Birmingham was excellent and never cost 'well many goals last season, same can be said for the Dundee Utd keeper a few years ago that got sold to Celtic so the keepers are out there and to suggest we can't expect a keeper that doesn't cost us a dozen goals a season is just plain wrong IMO (it's certainly about that number, i'm not about to go through them all to get an accurate figure though.)

I'm not expecting us to sign Cech or whoever is good in the premiership just now (i hardly watch any english football), if truth be told i'm just sick of us gifting easy goals to Hearts when we never get the same back from them. In the last game against the he flapped at a cross which he got away with and then did the same a few minutes later which he never got away with and in the first derby it's debatable whether it was him or Maybury to blame but IMO from what i remember i think he should have done better.

Thecat23
07-06-2013, 12:41 PM
I absolutely detest that line that seems to have been trotted out a lot this season, not saying he's world class but the guy motherwell just sold to Birmingham was excellent and never cost 'well many goals last season, same can be said for the Dundee Utd keeper a few years ago that got sold to Celtic so the keepers are out there and to suggest we can't expect a keeper that doesn't cost us a dozen goals a season is just plain wrong IMO (it's certainly about that number, i'm not about to go through them all to get an accurate figure though.)

I'm not expecting us to sign Cech or whoever is good in the premiership just now (i hardly watch any english football), if truth be told i'm just sick of us gifting easy goals to Hearts when we never get the same back from them. In the last game against the he flapped at a cross which he got away with and then did the same a few minutes later which he never got away with and in the first derby it's debatable whether it was him or Maybury to blame but IMO from what i remember i think he should have done better.

Williams is just as good as both those keepers you have mentioned. Just because he made mistakes in the derby and if you watch the final Williams wasn't at fault as the ball was to high in the first place so he couldn't have reached it. He is a good keeper and I honestly have no idea why you would think we could do better with the wages we offer. I think Williams is by miles one of the best keepers we have had. I'm a keeper myself and like to watch them during games. Also if you think the Motherwell keeper didn't make mistakes you're sadly wrong. He has had his fair share of blunders ask any Well fan. I think you're being harsh personally. A dozen goals a season?? How many pen saves? How many one on ones? Some of the best keepers in the world drop crosses.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 12:42 PM
I absolutely detest that line that seems to have been trotted out a lot this season, not saying he's world class but the guy motherwell just sold to Birmingham was excellent and never cost 'well many goals last season, same can be said for the Dundee Utd keeper a few years ago that got sold to Celtic so the keepers are out there and to suggest we can't expect a keeper that doesn't cost us a dozen goals a season is just plain wrong IMO (it's certainly about that number, i'm not about to go through them all to get an accurate figure though.)

I'm not expecting us to sign Cech or whoever is good in the premiership just now (i hardly watch any english football), if truth be told i'm just sick of us gifting easy goals to Hearts when we never get the same back from them. In the last game against the he flapped at a cross which he got away with and then did the same a few minutes later which he never got away with and in the first derby it's debatable whether it was him or Maybury to blame but IMO from what i remember i think he should have done better.

I'll be amazed if you come up with close to a dozen goals without being really harsh on Ben, but I'll be intrigued to see what you come up with - I used to be accused of being hypercritical of goalkeepers, but Williams really is the best we've had for a long time. I've seen Darren Randolph make errors before, and I bet that there were many 'Well supporters as critical of him as you are of Williams. Similarly, I bet fans of other teams really rate Williams.

Yes, he has cost us goals, undoubtedly - but even the very, very best goalkeepers will still cost their teams a few goals a season. It's all relative anyway - how much does the good stuff outweigh the bad stuff, and are the same bad things happening all the time? In Ben's case, he has a huge surplus of positive things, and doesn't make the same mistakes over and over again. Our other recent keepers would be lucky to be at 50/50.

Leigh Griffiths was amazing for us last season, but he still missed a lot of good chances. Similarly Williams has been excellent, but is not infallible.

Bobby's Cinema
07-06-2013, 12:43 PM
Given some of the charlatans we've had in goal the last ten years, I'm stunned at some of the comments on this thread - Williams is the best goalkeeper that we have had for many years, by an absolute mile.

Yes, he has cost us goals, show me a goalkeeper who doesn't - De Gea cost £18M and lost some very soft goals in his first season at Utd; Peter Cech has made some howlers over the years.

Williams' first season was excellent overall. Between how comfortable he is with the ball at his feet, his kicking ability with right or left, and his general composure, we were under much less pressure last year than in any other recent season. In addition, his agility and reactions make him a formidable SPL goalkeeper, and he is at a great age for his position - he also didn't miss a single game through injury, which has been a rarity for our GKs.

I really hope that he is here for years to come.
100% my thoughts

pontius pilate
07-06-2013, 12:43 PM
I'd agree with you their mate being a keeper as well the mistakes you make are always spotlighted and when you make saves its you're job bit of a lose lose situation.

just_joe
07-06-2013, 12:46 PM
At the moment he'll do but still has his faults. Although a good shot stopper and communicator, he's still a bit dodgy at times under the cross ball, would like to see us getting a good young prospect in for the future, someone around the 22-23 years age.

I agree 100% with you regarding being dodgy with cross balls.

I actually think the opposite of what you say regarding wanting a good young prospect. I would love for us to be able to sign an experienced goalkeeper whos played at a reasonably high level and has a good pedigree.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 12:47 PM
I'll be amazed if you come up with close to a dozen goals without being really harsh on Ben, but I'll be intrigued to see what you come up with - I used to be accused of being hypercritical of goalkeepers, but Williams really is the best we've had for a long time. I've seen Darren Randolph make errors before, and I bet that there were many 'Well supporters as critical of him as you are of Williams.

Yes, he has cost us goals, undoubtedly - but even the very, very best goalkeepers will still cost their teams a few goals a season. It's all relative anyway - how much does the good stuff outweigh the bad stuff, and are the same bad things happening all the time? In Ben's case, he has a huge surplus of positive things, and doesn't make the same mistakes all the time.

Leigh Griffiths was amazing for us last season, but he still missed a lot of good chances. Similarly Williams has been excellent, but is not infallible.

I'm not overly critical of him i don't think, i just really want him to stop gifting easy goals, particularly to hearts, i just don't think he's irreplaceable and i think the attitude of "we're only hibs, of course keepers will cost us goals" is all wrong.

Thecat23
07-06-2013, 12:51 PM
I'm not overly critical of him i don't think, i just really want him to stop gifting easy goals, particularly to hearts, i just don't think he's irreplaceable and i think the attitude of "we're only hibs, of course keepers will cost us goals" is all wrong.

But we are, Not that means we can't get a very good keeper, but some folk on here want an error free keeper which by the way does not exist. Williams for me is the best out there for us and what we can afford IMHO.

Every keeper in the world makes mistakes. Joe Hart has had a mare this season. Ask any City fan if they want a new keeper and I'll stick all my money that almost every one of them don't.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 12:59 PM
But we are, Not that means we can't get a very good keeper, but some folk on here want an error free keeper which by the way does not exist. Williams for me is the best out there for us and what we can afford IMHO.

Every keeper in the world makes mistakes. Joe Hart has had a mare this season. Ask any City fan if they want a new keeper and I'll stick all my money that almost every one of them don't.

I don't mind Williams, i honestly don't but i genuinely think we've got the right to expect a keeper that cost us less goals than he cost us last season.

I don't want us going out to replace him, there's other more important priorities but i think there will be better out there available on our budget as Motherwell and Dundee Utd have proven IMO.

Mentioned it in my previous post but i'm completely sick to the back teeth of goalies gifting Hearts goals in derbies, maybe i am being harsh on Williams, if i am it's probably due to the fact he seems to save his worst games for them and it completely does my tits in.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 01:00 PM
I'm not overly critical of him i don't think, i just really want him to stop gifting easy goals, particularly to hearts, i just don't think he's irreplaceable and i think the attitude of "we're only hibs, of course keepers will cost us goals" is all wrong.

The attitude isn't "we're only Hibs, of course keepers will cost us goals" - the realistic view is every goalkeeper in the world makes mistakes, we need to try and get one who makes as few mistakes as possible for our budget. We have done that, for the first time in a long, long time. In addition to not making many mistakes, he also made some incredible saves.

I realise that you do actually rate him, but you are being way, way too critical IMO - especially regarding the Hearts goal. Yes, he cost us that goal, but in 5 games v Hearts we conceded two goals - I shudder to think how many ridiculously bad goals we have lost due howlers many of our previous goalkeepers against Hearts before; Williams is miles away from that standard. Getting caught under a cross is a mistake, no doubt - but nothing compared to the mistakes made by Brown, McNeil, Zibby, Stack, Smith etc.

bingo70
07-06-2013, 01:04 PM
The attitude isn't "we're only Hibs, of course keepers will cost us goals" - the realistic view is every goalkeeper in the world makes mistakes, we need to try and get one who makes as few mistakes as possible for our budget. We have done that, for the first time in a long, long time. In addition to not making many mistakes, he also made some incredible saves.

I realise that you do actually rate him, but you are being way, way too critical IMO - especially regarding the Hearts goal. Yes, he cost us that goal, but in 5 games v Hearts we conceded two goals - I shudder to think how many ridiculously bad goals we have lost due howlers many of our previous goalkeepers against Hearts before; Williams is miles away from that standard. Getting caught under a cross is a mistake, no doubt - but nothing compared to the mistakes made by Brown, McNeil, Zibby, Stack, Smith etc.

When was the last hearts keeper to make an obvious clear mistake against us? I'm not talking about jamie mcdonald maybe having bad positioning or moalinen who arguably could have got down quicker, i mean a really bad mistake?

the two goals this season i think he was to blame for and i can think of at least two others where we could and should have lost goals due to him flapping in these games, it's not good enough IMO.

Thecat23
07-06-2013, 01:04 PM
I don't mind Williams, i honestly don't but i genuinely think we've got the right to expect a keeper that cost us less goals than he cost us last season.

I don't want us going out to replace him, there's other more important priorities but i think there will be better out there available on our budget as Motherwell and Dundee Utd have proven IMO.

Mentioned it in my previous post but i'm completely sick to the back teeth of goalies gifting Hearts goals in derbies, maybe i am being harsh on Williams, if i am it's probably due to the fact he seems to save his worst games for them and it completely does my tits in.

I agree the goals we lose against them are unreal at times and if you go back through the years they wouldn't win half the games they did if we had a good keeper.

No doubt there are keepers out there who will be better. I still think Williams is every part as good as both Utd and Well keepers. I mind speaking to a Dons fan after the scottish cup game and he was saying he wished they had Williams as he's very commanding. I'm happy with him and I do think he will be working on his crosses and be even better this season coming.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 01:25 PM
When was the last hearts keeper to make an obvious clear mistake against us? I'm not talking about jamie mcdonald maybe having bad positioning or moalinen who arguably could have got down quicker, i mean a really bad mistake?

the two goals this season i think he was to blame for and i can think of at least two others where we could and should have lost goals due to him flapping in these games, it's not good enough IMO.

You're going off on a bit tangent there - yes, it's frustrating that Hearts goalkeepers rarely make mistakes in derbies, but we're talking about Williams and Hibs goalkeepers here. Williams was at fault for one goal against Hearts this year, he got caught under a very good delivery from a corner, just as he did earlier in the game. Nothing compared to many other keepers who have made mistakes in derbies.

Anyway, I have said all I have to say about Williams, and have outlined all the reasons why I rate him so highly, whilst acknowledging his errors. I honestly cannot believe there has been as much discussion as there has been already.

As I alluded to earlier, your criticism of Williams is akin to criticising Griffiths for not scoring enough goals, IMO.

J-C
07-06-2013, 01:30 PM
What's wrong with Murdoch as number two?

I really think that keepers is the one area that requires no work at all this summer.

Nothing mate, as number 2's go he's decidedly average, I'd like to see us go for a youngish goalie with a bit of potential, when was the last time we had a young goalie come through the ranks and stake a claim for 1st spot. How is young Antell, is he any good, if he is would rather see him there instead of Murdoch.

Thecat23
07-06-2013, 01:32 PM
Nothing mate, as number 2's go he's decidedly average, I'd like to see us go for a youngish goalie with a bit of potential, when was the last time we had a young goalie come through the ranks and stake a claim for 1st spot. How is young Antell, is he any good, if he is would rather see him there instead of Murdoch.

Sure He was let go end of the season?

J-C
07-06-2013, 01:37 PM
Was he, heard he was half decent, there goes that theory then.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 01:41 PM
Nothing mate, as number 2's go he's decidedly average, I'd like to see us go for a youngish goalie with a bit of potential, when was the last time we had a young goalie come through the ranks and stake a claim for 1st spot. How is young Antell, is he any good, if he is would rather see him there instead of Murdoch.

I think Antell has been released, which I was surprised at that myself, thought Murdoch was brought in to allow Antell to get experience to benefit us - he has started 66 games as a GK on loan, which is great experience for a 20 year old.

However, young goalkeepers with a reputation often disappear from the game, at least for a few years before becoming prominent at a later age. It's not often you'll get a Craig Gordon who comes in very young and barely puts a foot wrong - even then, he's finished at 30. Murdoch was rated as a youngster, and has decent experience - he is 26 and has started 73 games, which is 14 more than Graham Stack had when he signed for us aged 28.

Murdoch is decent back up, and probably getting better from working with Williams every day.

Vault Boy
07-06-2013, 01:50 PM
Was he, heard he was half decent, there goes that theory then.

Ben said that Paul Grant and Dougie Horne are good prospects too. Hopefully they can step up next. (Although Dougie is only 17).

blackpoolhibs
07-06-2013, 03:43 PM
I agree the goals we lose against them are unreal at times and if you go back through the years they wouldn't win half the games they did if we had a good keeper.

No doubt there are keepers out there who will be better. I still think Williams is every part as good as both Utd and Well keepers. I mind speaking to a Dons fan after the scottish cup game and he was saying he wished they had Williams as he's very commanding. I'm happy with him and I do think he will be working on his crosses and be even better this season coming.

I certainly hope so, as he was terrible when he arrived at them, then he seemed to have got to grips with crosses, then he was back to how he was when he first came to the club.

There's no doubt he's as good a shot stopper as there is, and some of his one on one saves are brilliant.

I just dont see this fantastic keeper some folk are raving about, and while he has made some cracking saves, he's made some real howlers too that directly resulted in goals against us.

We seem to want a good keeper that much, his mistakes are being swept under the carpet, when previous keepers were not given the same grace.

As i said previously, Graham Stack would have been crucified for the howlers Williams has made this season?

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 03:51 PM
I certainly hope so, as he was terrible when he arrived at them, then he seemed to have got to grips with crosses, then he was back to how he was when he first came to the club.

There's no doubt he's as good a shot stopper as there is, and some of his one on one saves are brilliant.

I just dont see this fantastic keeper some folk are raving about, and while he has made some cracking saves, he's made some real howlers too that directly resulted in goals against us.

We seem to want a good keeper that much, his mistakes are being swept under the carpet, when previous keepers were not given the same grace.

As i said previously, Graham Stack would have been crucified for the howlers Williams has made this season?

Any chance you could highlight these 'howlers'? The Dundee Utd kick out goal was certainly very bad, and there have, of course, been goals that he has been at fault with - but I can't think of many, if any, absolute goal out of nothing shockers. You make it sound like he's at fault for goals every week.

Your continued referencing of Stack is perplexing. No comparison between them at all in quality.

blackpoolhibs
07-06-2013, 04:06 PM
Any chance you could highlight these 'howlers'? The Dundee Utd kick out goal was certainly very bad, and there have, of course, been goals that he has been at fault with - but I can't think of many, if any, absolute goal out of nothing shockers. You make it sound like he's at fault for goals every week.

Your continued referencing of Stack is perplexing. No comparison between them at all in quality.

There were numerous goals he gave away early in his time at Hibs, Try looking at the goal he gave away at parkhead for a start in the 2-2 game. A howler of all howlers. There were others, but like the celtic game, they were swept under the carpet because we got a point at parkhead.

Kilmarnock at home, we won 2-1 but he came for a cross and made an erse of it.

I am not comparing him to Stack, Williams is slightly better in my opinion, but he was also slaughtered for coming off his line and making a mess of things. Williams is worse than stack at coming off his line.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 05:07 PM
There were numerous goals he gave away early in his time at Hibs, Try looking at the goal he gave away at parkhead for a start in the 2-2 game. A howler of all howlers. There were others, but like the celtic game, they were swept under the carpet because we got a point at parkhead.

Kilmarnock at home, we won 2-1 but he came for a cross and made an erse of it.

I am not comparing him to Stack, Williams is slightly better in my opinion, but he was also slaughtered for coming off his line and making a mess of things. Williams is worse than stack at coming off his line.

Firstly, I would like to clarify that I consider a howler to be the cheapest kind of goal that a keeper can lose, one that comes from something that was little in terms of an attacking threat from the opposition and wasn't as a result of any quality on their part - Simon Brown letting that Lee Miller header in at Tynie being a perfect example. On that basis, the Dundee Utd kick out goal was a definite howler, I can't think of any others. He has been at fault for goals for sure, but many I would put on a par with a defender losing their man at a corner leading to a goal - preventable, but still pretty routine incidents in the SPL.

I remember the teething problems at the start of the season and I had plenty so say about him back then too. It was my belief that although he looked questionable at a few of the goals that we lost, I felt that he looked an all round secure keeper, whom the defence was comfortable with, and one whose composure on the ball and kicking ability meant that we were under so much less pressure than we had been for many seasons under other keepers.

Throughout the season he has been immense at times, and truly has won us points and games. Yes, he has lost a couple of really bad goals and a fair amount that he could have done better with, but I think your summary of his season is way off the mark. Williams had an average start to the season before being superb for the vast majority, with the errors in the 3 games at the end of the season sticking out so much due to the fact that they had become uncharacteristic.

Stack wasn't better at cross balls at all IMO, and I'm genuinely surprised that someone who watches Hibs as much as you and has seen who we've had to put up with before, doesn't have a much higher opinion of someone who has played a pivotal role in our progression this season.

Williams is one of our most important players and this is the first summer that I can remember in a long, long time where I am not worried about our goalkeeper for the coming season.

blackpoolhibs
07-06-2013, 05:32 PM
Firstly, I would like to clarify that I consider a howler to be the cheapest kind of goal that a keeper can lose, one that comes from something that was little in terms of an attacking threat from the opposition and wasn't as a result of any quality on their part - Simon Brown letting that Lee Miller header in at Tynie being a perfect example. On that basis, the Dundee Utd kick out goal was a definite howler, I can't think of any others. He has been at fault for goals for sure, but many I would put on a par with a defender losing their man at a corner leading to a goal - preventable, but still pretty routine incidents in the SPL.

I remember the teething problems at the start of the season and I had plenty so say about him back then too. It was my belief that although he looked questionable at a few of the goals that we lost, I felt that he looked an all round secure keeper, whom the defence was comfortable with, and one whose composure on the ball and kicking ability meant that we were under so much less pressure than we had been for many seasons under other keepers.

Throughout the season he has been immense at times, and truly has won us points and games. Yes, he has lost a couple of really bad goals and a fair amount that he could have done better with, but I think your summary of his season is way off the mark. Williams had an average start to the season before being superb for the vast majority, with the errors in the 3 games at the end of the season sticking out so much due to the fact that they had become uncharacteristic.

Stack wasn't better at cross balls at all IMO, and I'm genuinely surprised that someone who watches Hibs as much as you and has seen who we've had to put up with before, doesn't have a much higher opinion of someone who has played a pivotal role in our progression this season.

Williams is one of our most important players and this is the first summer that I can remember in a long, long time where I am not worried about our goalkeeper for the coming season.

I dont have any scientific theories like you on what a howler is or not. I just watch each player and as we are talking about Williams, him and his mistakes. You now admit he was responsible for goals conceded which was my main point.

I will say it again, he made quite a few mistakes early on, and they were covered up by the teams ability to win those games or draw.

Those mistakes crept back into his game towards the end of the season, and cost us along with a couple of defenders the first goal at Hampden. I am a little worried about our goalkeeping situation for the coming season.

Stevie Reid
07-06-2013, 05:33 PM
I dont have any scientific theories like you on what a howler is or not. I just watch each player and as we are talking about Williams, him and his mistakes. You now admit he was responsible for goals conceded which was my main point.

I will say it again, he made quite a few mistakes early on, and they were covered up by the teams ability to win those games or draw.

Those mistakes crept back into his game towards the end of the season, and cost us along with a couple of defenders the first goal at Hampden. I am a little worried about our goalkeeping situation for the coming season.

I have stated from my first post that he has made mistakes, and in many subsequent posts too. I also think it's important to distinguish between times when a goalkeeper should have done better, and times when he's practically chucked the ball in the back of net - Ben has had way less of both than anyone since Andersson, and much less of the latter especially.

Anyway, I couldn't be less worried about the keepers we have.

Andy74
07-06-2013, 06:26 PM
How about getting shot of Murdoch and using his wages to get a younger keeper in, someone with decent potential and able to push Williams for no.1 spot. I'm not talking bout spending more, just spending wisely.

We've got a young keeper. Murdoch is a cheap back up with a bit more experience if he has to play.

Can't believe we have a thread on goalkeepers just now though!?!

WestEndHibee
07-06-2013, 06:39 PM
Given some of the charlatans we've had in goal the last ten years, I'm stunned at some of the comments on this thread - Williams is the best goalkeeper that we have had for many years, by an absolute mile.

Yes, he has cost us goals, show me a goalkeeper who doesn't - De Gea cost £18M and lost some very soft goals in his first season at Utd; Peter Cech has made some howlers over the years.

Williams' first season was excellent overall. Between how comfortable he is with the ball at his feet, his kicking ability with right or left, and his general composure, we were under much less pressure last year than in any other recent season. In addition, his agility and reactions make him a formidable SPL goalkeeper, and he is at a great age for his position - he also didn't miss a single game through injury, which has been a rarity for our GKs.

I really hope that he is here for years to come.

:agree: Exactly this! The guy's been a breath of fresh air in goals! And he really cares for the team. I watch the goalkeepers a lot in games and ben's positioning with regards to shot stopping is brilliant. He makes a lot of tough shots look easy because he's already 1 step ahead. But this sort of thing goes unnoticed. Yes he has his faults with crosses but I'd take him over nearly all of the keepers we've had in my memory span (bar maybe the mad monk).

mca
07-06-2013, 09:03 PM
Does Anyone have the SPL - Keeper - stats for the season..

would be interesting to know the number of shut outs and penalty saves etc etc - each spl keeper has had this season.. :wink:

BEEJ
08-06-2013, 03:07 PM
And separately, PF was reported to have recently been "looking at" a former U-21 N. Ieland keeper.

So I'm happy to go with his decision. :cb:cb

Franck Stanton
08-06-2013, 04:23 PM
Never noticed McDonald having positional problems and I've never heard any jambo criticize him for it, not*to say what you're saying is wrong, its just not something I've heard and he seems to make few mistakes that cost them goals.

Dundee found a keeper that doesn't cost them goals, that's what I want us to do.

Motherwell found a keeper on the way up that didn't cost them goals, why can't we do that?

Dundee utd have consistently had goalies over the last few years that don't cost them goals, why do we need to have a goalie that does as its all we can expect at this level?

Despite all I've said, I don't mind Williams, there's something likeable about him but I think he's been pretty lucky to get such an easy ride from our support this season. Agree entirely with the bit in bold

hfc rd
08-06-2013, 05:03 PM
I like Big Ben. Fair-do's he has his moments i.e. crosses. But he has been just as equally as important as Leigh Griffiths. He's the best GK we have had in nearly over a decade since Leighton. Yes he can have those moments to forget but so does every GK. From Manuel Neuer to Zibby Malkowski. Every GK makes mistakes that costs their team goals. Big Ben isn't any different.

hibsbollah
09-06-2013, 12:00 PM
I think Gordon Marshalls 'coaching' could be at fault yet again:grr:

...WentToMowAnSPL
09-06-2013, 09:20 PM
I started this thread assuming everyone would agree that Ben is fantastic and it would drift into oblivion ... Pat made him Vice Captain so I guess that shows his views. After successive jokes in this position for which we have been a laughing stock I'm more than pleased with Ben... Penalty saves this season were amazing

J-C
09-06-2013, 10:40 PM
I started this thread assuming everyone would agree that Ben is fantastic and it would drift into oblivion ... Pat made him Vice Captain so I guess that shows his views. After successive jokes in this position for which we have been a laughing stock I'm more than pleased with Ben... Penalty saves this season were amazing


I think the majority are agreeing, just also pointing out that although generally decent he still has a few wee faults to iron out, like dealing with crosses.

Franck Le God
10-06-2013, 06:20 PM
Definitely the best goalkeeper I've seen in my time watching Hibs. I feel completely comfortable (and I reckon the defence do too) with him between the sticks.