Turkey, the beginning of the Islamic Enlightenment?

[Hibrandenburg]

Could we now be witnessing the beginning of the Islamic Enlightenment? IMO Turkey and it's neighbour Iran tick all the boxes to light the fire.

[CropleyWasGod]

It was once said to me, by a Muslim, that we should remember that Islam is about 700 years younger than Christianity. We would do well to consider its development in those terms.

In that light, when Christianity was the "same age", it was sending out Crusaders to kill all the nasty heretical Muslims. Ring any bells? :rolleyes:

So, you could be right about the enlightenment, albeit it's maybe a couple of centuries too soon.

[Hibrandenburg]

It was once said to me, by a Muslim, that we should remember that Islam is about 700 years younger than Christianity. We would do well to consider its development in those terms.

In that light, when Christianity was the "same age", it was sending out Crusaders to kill all the nasty heretical Muslims. Ring any bells? :rolleyes:

So, you could be right about the enlightenment, albeit it's maybe a couple of centuries too soon.

Think social media might hurry things along a little. The Turkish youth have had a taste of the good life and understandably won't relinquish that without a fight. Same goes for the Iranian youth who regularly cross into Turkey to let their hair down.

Interesting times.

[YehButNoBut]

Shocking scenes of police brutality in Turkey.

Turkish Spring Police Brutality COLLECTION

Published on 2 Jun 2013 THIS IS WHAT REVOLUTION LOOKS LIKE! Human Vs Human, Police using their authority to brutally inflict DEATH AND INJURY on citizens protesting about a corrupt system and government!

THIS IS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD YOU LIVE IN AT THIS MOMENT, watch and share if the state of our humanity is important to you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBsbv0Zrzoo

[lord bunberry]

Turkey has been a democracy for a long time and up untill the last election had a secular government. I'm not sure the current protests are in anyway related to islam or any other religion, it seems to be more about citizens being unhappy with their leaders

[LeighLoyal]

We saw scenes like this in Iran a few years ago, they were very brutally suppressed by the regime.

I don't see how you can enlighten something that contains the concept of jihad and its heavenly rewards for killing people, if any Muslim tells you Islam worships the same god as the bible just remind him/her of the commandment thou shalt not kill.

[CropleyWasGod]

We saw scenes like this in Iran a few years ago, they were very brutally suppressed by the regime.

I don't see how you can enlighten something that contains the concept of jihad and its heavenly rewards for killing people, if any Muslim tells you Islam worships the same god as the bible just remind him/her of the commandment thou shalt not kill.

One might also remind some of the (supposedly Christian) states and countries that have the death penalty of that same commandment.

[Hibrandenburg]

Turkey has been a democracy for a long time and up untill the last election had a secular government. I'm not sure the current protests are in anyway related to islam or any other religion, it seems to be more about citizens being unhappy with their leaders

Think the main gripe of the protesters is the pro Islamic government's attempt to curb their freedoms that they have become accustomed to and that's why I think that this could be the start of an enlightened form of Islam. They don't want to give up the freedoms they've gained but their religious culture is just as important, this can only go two ways, a dilution of Islam or back to the dark ages.

[CropleyWasGod]

Think social media might hurry things along a little. The Turkish youth have had a taste of the good life and understandably won't relinquish that without a fight. Same goes for the Iranian youth who regularly cross into Turkey to let their hair down.

Interesting times.

I'd agree with that. Although I mentioned the 700-years thing, it's not as clear-cut as that. The world changes at a quicker rate every century, and that 700 years is more likely to speed up to, say 4-500.

[Mon Dieu4]

We saw scenes like this in Iran a few years ago, they were very brutally suppressed by the regime.

I don't see how you can enlighten something that contains the concept of jihad and its heavenly rewards for killing people, if any Muslim tells you Islam worships the same god as the bible just remind him/her of the commandmen
t thou shalt not kill.

Yeah lets just burn some witches, behead some heathens or get people like Galileo to repent under pain of torture or death

You seem to have a real issue with Islam, down Leith i know loads of them and they are sound as

race, religion, football club etc doesn't discriminate, you get radges everywhere

[lord bunberry]

Think the main gripe of the protesters is the pro Islamic government's attempt to curb their freedoms that they have become accustomed to and that's why I think that this could be the start of an enlightened form of Islam. They don't want to give up the freedoms they've gained but their religious culture is just as important, this can only go two ways, a dilution of Islam or back to the dark ages.

Is it only muslims who are protesting?

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it only muslims who are protesting?

No but it's against what they're protesting that's relevant here.

[HibsMax]

What the hell happened to the girl in that video at 6:33? She is lying on the ground and her left arm is kinda twitching but she looks "fine" otherwise. Then there's a shot of her in the ambulance all covered in blood.

[Teapot]

It was once said to me, by a Muslim, that we should remember that Islam is about 700 years younger than Christianity. We would do well to consider its development in those terms.

In that light, when Christianity was the "same age", it was sending out Crusaders to kill all the nasty heretical Muslims. Ring any bells? :rolleyes:

So, you could be right about the enlightenment, albeit it's maybe a couple of centuries too soon.

That's a really good point. Never thought of it like that before. In a place like Turkey which interacts with so many Western countries in terms of tourism, business etc and also with the influence of social media I would imagine it possibly could be much sooner than several hundred years?

[LeighLoyal]

One might also remind some of the (supposedly Christian) states and countries that have the death penalty of that same commandment.




The only country I am aware of is the US which is a secular country as enshrined by the bill of rights. My point wasn't about state execution anyway, but that there is no concept of jihad in Christianity unlike Islam. Executions in the Islamic world, aside from jihad killings, are also Koran based, the stoning of woman for example. There is no basis for violence against anyone in the New Testament.

[Marabou Stork]

The only country I am aware of is the US which is a secular country as enshrined by the bill of rights. My point wasn't about state execution anyway, but that there is no concept of jihad in Christianity unlike Islam. Executions in the Islamic world, aside from jihad killings, are also Koran based, the stoning of woman for example. There is no basis for violence against anyone in the New Testament.

What rot. Any religious text of that length has dozens of unpleasant passages within. It just happens that somewhat sensibly, most Christians have turned their back on these verses. Islam is the same. The Qu'ran is overwhelmingly peaceful and decent despite containing some abhorrent stuff. The vast, vast majority of Muslims disregard the unpleasantness contained within their holy book too.

The only difference is that Islamophobes such as your good self don't allow the facts to stand in the way of a little brown people hatred.

[lord bunberry]

No but it's against what they're protesting that's relevant here.

It will be interesting to see what happens in turkey, whether we will see an islamic government giving concessions to the people or a return to the secular government that preceded the current one.

[500miles]

The only country I am aware of is the US which is a secular country as enshrined by the bill of rights. My point wasn't about state execution anyway, but that there is no concept of jihad in Christianity unlike Islam. Executions in the Islamic world, aside from jihad killings, are also Koran based, the stoning of woman for example. There is no basis for violence against anyone in the New Testament.

........ cough *Old Testament* cough.

Can't really have one without the other, and "The Lord" was mad for a bit of stoning in his younger days.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Is it not something to do with building a hotel or a supermarket or something? maybe the Gorgie hordes will jump on it as well when their times come. I really do not see this as a religious issue at all going by what I have heard on TV.

[lord bunberry]

Is it not something to do with building a hotel or a supermarket or something? maybe the Gorgie hordes will jump on it as well when their times come. I really do not see this as a religious issue at all going by what I have heard on TV.

I think it started with a protest about something being built on a park

[PeeJay]

There is no basis for violence against anyone in the New Testament.
You sure? Could it be that you haven't actually read the New Testament? :confused: Or have I misunderstood something regarding the concept of violence?

[CropleyWasGod]

The only country I am aware of is the US which is a secular country as enshrined by the bill of rights. My point wasn't about state execution anyway, but that there is no concept of jihad in Christianity unlike Islam. Executions in the Islamic world, aside from jihad killings, are also Koran based, the stoning of woman for example. There is no basis for violence against anyone in the New Testament.

You said "thou shalt not kill". That is what the Commandment says; it doesn't say "thou shalt not kill, except where it's justified, or where it's state-sponsored, or it is to punish child-abusers". Thou shalt not kill.

See where interpretation of holy words gets us?

Oh, and have you read the book of Revelation?

[hibsbollah]

It was once said to me, by a Muslim, that we should remember that Islam is about 700 years younger than Christianity. We would do well to consider its development in those terms.

In that light, when Christianity was the "same age", it was sending out Crusaders to kill all the nasty heretical Muslims. Ring any bells? :rolleyes:

So, you could be right about the enlightenment, albeit it's maybe a couple of centuries too soon.

The muslim world most definitely DID have an enlightenment period, it just didnt happen the same time as in the west. This corresponded with leading the world in science, maths, architecture and art, irrigation and having the most advanced trading and financial empire on the planet in the eastern mediteranean (which is why We had the First Crusade to get it off them). The Western Enlightenment in christian europe was about conflict between science and religion, and we've never really got over it now (for evidence, see the Dawkins vs Religious types bunfights we still get today). Islam and science didnt go to war in the same way because the basics of the religion were different.

I agree you could call whats happening in Turkey (and Tunisia, Egypt etc etc since the Arab spring) as a kind of enlightenment. I disagree that they havent had one before.

I know theres some trolling going on so im not going to waste my time trying to change minds when theyre not going to change, but for anyone who is tempted to believe that the Koran has any more violent bloodthirsty rhetoric in it than the Bible (or Das Kapital or Mein Kampf), do what i did and try reading them one after the other. It wont take you longer than a couple of hours to get the jist of them. Theres no practical difference between them in this respect. Its a 'good living' guide for surviving in the desert with loads of incomprehensible ramblings (at least to me, as an agnostic) about rock badgers and not marrying your cousin or eating raw seafood, basically. Very very heavy going, and there are some passages that can be taken out of context, but a call to kill all infidels? Nah.


Anyway, as has already been said, the Turkish demonstrationss have more to do with the authoritarian Turkish police state than religion.

[Sylar]

The only country I am aware of is the US which is a secular country as enshrined by the bill of rights. My point wasn't about state execution anyway, but that there is no concept of jihad in Christianity unlike Islam. Executions in the Islamic world, aside from jihad killings, are also Koran based, the stoning of woman for example. There is no basis for violence against anyone in the New Testament.

The level of ignorance in this post is absolutely astonishing...which considering some of the historical posts on Hibs.net is an impressive feat.

[Treadstone]

The level of ignorance in this post is absolutely astonishing...which considering some of the historical posts on Hibs.net is an impressive feat.

It's his MO.

[LeighLoyal]

The level of ignorance in this post is absolutely astonishing...which considering some of the historical posts on Hibs.net is an impressive feat.



Am I supposed to be upset that a wee lost boy like you is riled up by me suggesting Islam is at the root of human rights abuses? Why not have a go at the OP for daring to suggest Islam needs an elightenment? How dare the OP question Islam's status as world religion of peace!

Anyway, welcome to the ignore list.

[CropleyWasGod]

The muslim world most definitely DID have an enlightenment period, it just didnt happen the same time as in the west. This corresponded with leading the world in science, maths, architecture and art, irrigation and having the most advanced trading and financial empire on the planet in the eastern mediteranean (which is why We had the First Crusade to get it off them). The Western Enlightenment in christian europe was about conflict between science and religion, and we've never really got over it now (for evidence, see the Dawkins vs Religious types bunfights we still get today). Islam and science didnt go to war in the same way because the basics of the religion were different.

I agree you could call whats happening in Turkey (and Tunisia, Egypt etc etc since the Arab spring) as a kind of enlightenment. I disagree that they havent had one before.

I know theres some trolling going on so im not going to waste my time trying to change minds when theyre not going to change, but for anyone who is tempted to believe that the Koran has any more violent bloodthirsty rhetoric in it than the Bible (or Das Kapital or Mein Kampf), do what i did and try reading them one after the other. It wont take you longer than a couple of hours to get the jist of them. Theres no practical difference between them in this respect. Its a 'good living' guide for surviving in the desert with loads of incomprehensible ramblings (at least to me, as an agnostic) about rock badgers and not marrying your cousin or eating raw seafood, basically. Very very heavy going, and there are some passages that can be taken out of context, but a call to kill all infidels? Nah.


Anyway, as has already been said, the Turkish demonstrationss have more to do with the authoritarian Turkish police state than religion.

Yeah, I agree about the Muslim world leading the world in so much. I think, though, I interpreted the OP's point differently. I read it (wrongly?) as anticipating social and cultural upheaval.

[Twa Cairpets]

Am I supposed to be upset that a wee lost boy like you is riled up by me suggesting Islam is at the root of human rights abuses? Why not have a go at the OP for daring to suggest Islam needs an elightenment? How dare the OP question Islam's status as world religion of peace!

Anyway, welcome to the ignore list.

Warped application of it's tenets is at the base of some humans rights abuses.
Jehovahs witnesses kill people by denying blood transfusion
Political extremists kill for ideals or country
Some creationists believe in the power of prayer over the power of medicine and kill their children
The love of money creates death and misery through human trafficking
Drugs and the sale of them can reduce people to dependent automatons
Alcohol kills more people a day than any religious extremism does in decades.

All human rights. All abused. How many of them are due to Islam, particularly in the UK?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Is it only muslims who are protesting?

Surely that means they would be Protestants!

[Sylar]

Warped application of it's tenets is at the base of some humans rights abuses.
Jehovahs witnesses kill people by denying blood transfusion
Political extremists kill for ideals or country
Some creationists believe in the power of prayer over the power of medicine and kill their children
The love of money creates death and misery through human trafficking
Drugs and the sale of them can reduce people to dependent automatons
Alcohol kills more people a day than any religious extremism does in decades.

All human rights. All abused. How many of them are due to Islam, particularly in the UK?

Your first mistake TC was attempting to combat prejudice with logic.

[Jonnyboy]

The level of ignorance in this post is absolutely astonishing...which considering some of the historical posts on Hibs.net is an impressive feat.

Inspired I am sure by his hero Stephen Lennon

[Pete]

race, religion, football club etc doesn't discriminate, you get radges everywhere

That's the way I see things. Is there really a need to see things any other way?