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NeilOrrSquareBa
31-05-2013, 12:55 PM
FWIW
My Hibs report Card Season 2012-2013

Summary
Overall Hibs have made progress this season. The application is still a bit patchy and some dreadful slumps in form meant all the good work at the front was spoilt. After being second in the league at the end of November to end up in the bottom 6 was disappointing.

Results wise the clean sheet versus Hearts this year was a real milestone. We saw in the first game at ER that Hibs were not going to be pushovers. It made me laugh to read after that game that the Hearts fans were seeking protection for their “flair” players from the hammer throwers in the Hibs side. The assaults carried out by some of their SFA registered thugs over the years on our players with little or no recourse remain points of contention between me and any Jambo that want to argue!

We performed better against the League leaders than we have for some time, which was positive. Our attention tends to wander and a lack of application and getting ourselves dirty against the more committed members of this football league cost us a hell of a lot of points. To not beat Ross Country at all over 3 games tells it’s own tale.

The cup run was superb they players and the fans connected and despite an absurd semi-final performance Hibs secured a cup final slot. In the final Hibs were well beaten by a better and more committed team.

The support for this team can grow if they identify that the management of the club have a plan and are slowly working towards the goal. Impacti4ence can best describe a fan. Most of the arguments on this forum and those I see at matches between supporters of the same team are over semantics and caused by differences in perspective.

The manager is has his weaknesses, there is no doubt about that but he does seem to be focussed on bringing a winning mentality to the club. Signing players who HATE to lose and will not be slow in challenging those around them who are not performing.
If we (the fans) give the manager time and are prepared to accept the long game I think we could see some exciting times ahead. We do need a bit of luck in signings, persuading players to moe to ER is not easy but being involved in Europe may sway some. A decent draw and progression would certainly help.

As a club we are viewed by the media as a bit player in the league, and based on results who can ague coherently against that? The only way they (the media) will change their views on our club if we stick it to the other clubs on a regular basis and are up there challenging on all counts at the season’s end.

Support. We need more bums on seats. We’ve a great stadium but even when we have 10k in it seems only half full (probably because it is!!) I welcome any marketing initiative that will get more fans along to games. The Euro qualifiers make a good start point. Cut price tickets. Signed shirt draws. Half time team talks, video screens showing great goals, anything to get the fans back. The main event needs to be entertaining almost as much as winning.
The club needs to help this by improving communication. The initiatives already underway fans feedback groups, Hibs tweets etc all help but a lot more can be done. The club must engage the fans and get them to feel part of the set up.


Barring league reconstruction we have 2 more seasons without Newco. Our goal must be to be no.2 in Scotland before that happens.

It starts today.

Future17
31-05-2013, 01:14 PM
I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

greenpaper55
31-05-2013, 01:14 PM
The report card would be like my school one-could do better, although we finished the season on a bit of a high there were months of dire stuff before we hit a decent bit of form. I think the manager is on a steep learning curve and i think he still gets things wrong but i hope learns from his mistakes ?. The best bit for me is the younger players coming through and also some decent signings now on board, more of the same please. There is a good chance that we could finish second this year as we should be stronger and other teams seem to be losing many of their best players so big season ahead.

SlickShoes
31-05-2013, 01:50 PM
I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

I think the singling out of Griffiths is harsh, we have made progress since narrowly avoiding relegation.

3 or 4 teams had players that carried them this year, Griffiths was mediocre last year but a revelation this year. Where would motherwell have been without Higdons 26 goals? Billy McKay scored 23 for ICT, McGinn scored 20 for aberdeen who finished in a worse position than us.

What I am trying to say is that there are at least 4 teams that if you remove ONE player from them there league position pretty much turns upside down or worse.

We are less of a pushover than previous seasons but we still had that large post new year spell where in hibs tradition we play very poorly. This year it coincided with McPake's form dipping and Wotherspoon and Cairney vanishing from the wings, all of a sudden we were a team with a flat defensive midfield and only one attacking outlet in griffiths.

Heedersnvolleys
31-05-2013, 02:26 PM
Must do better!


At least one position better in the cup next season ;-)

patlowe
31-05-2013, 02:32 PM
We are less of a pushover than previous seasons but we still had that large post new year spell where in hibs tradition we play very poorly. This year it coincided with McPake's form dipping and Wotherspoon and Cairney vanishing from the wings, all of a sudden we were a team with a flat defensive midfield and only one attacking outlet in griffiths.

Excellent points - those factors certainly contributed to us missing out on top six, very narrowly at that. In a normal league, the contrasting sense of 'we are decent'/'we have failed miserably' felt by finishing top/bottom six would be much less pronounced.

When Spoony and Cairney were on form Hibs displayed an element of creativity which has been grossly lacking for the past few years. If we are to see excitement back among fans at ER then we need to find a way of sustaining that kind of attacking flair over a season and in a way that doesn't rely on 1/2 players. You only have to look to Motherwell to see that it CAN be done on a relative shoestring, even with a big lump up front.

I'm quietly confident that the signings made so far and the recent emergence of some very promising youngsters put us in a decent position to challenge for top 4 next season. It feels like Fenlon is building a team for once, as opposed to the perennial 'rebuilding', if that makes sense.

Geo_1875
31-05-2013, 02:50 PM
I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

But would they have won 5-1 with Collum instead of Thomson in charge?

If you can't see any improvement over last year you must be visually impaired.

Yes Griffiths scored a lot of goals but we wouldn't have had to play with 10 men if he hadn't been around. I'm sure most other teams would have been the same. Where would Motherwell have been without Higdon or Hertz without Ngoo?

Definite improvement over the previous season but still work to be done.

AngusHibby
31-05-2013, 03:13 PM
If we're doing a report card, what players would have got an A+ and what players would have got a dismal F?

basehibby
31-05-2013, 03:37 PM
I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.


If yer auntie had baws she'd be yer uncle etc - and if your argument had any more holes it would be a collander.

Griffiths WAS with us last season and we were almost relegated - this season we finished c 20 points better off, beating the Yamboloids twice along the way - but you see no progress?!?

There's none so blind as those that refuse to see :rolleyes:

Stevie Reid
31-05-2013, 03:54 PM
I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

So the main arguments for your extremely damning indictment that we haven't improved at all (when we clearly have by any measurable means), are the extremely tired 'where would be without Griffiths?' question, and your prediction of a result from an imaginary match?

Sergio sledge
31-05-2013, 03:59 PM
I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

If we didn't have Griffiths we would have had someone else, they probably wouldn't have had contributed as much as him, but perhaps the team wouldn't have been set up to feed a single player as much and others might have contributed more? You just cannot take one player out of one team and assume we are going to play the season with 10 men, unless you decide to do it with the other teams too. Where would Motherwell be without Higdon, or ICT without MacKay, or Aberdeen without McGinn. What's wrong with a manager building a team around a talent that he has and focussing on that talents' strengths?

We've conceded 19 less goals this season than last and scored 2 more goals. (in 2 less matches) So our attacking hasn't been much of an improvement, but we've gotten much more solid at the back.

The improvement this season hasn't been spectacular, and even Fenlon admitted that not making the top 6 was a failure, but there has been improvements, to deny this is daft.


With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

Rubbish. Are you saying McGivern isn't better than Kujabi? Taiwo is contributing more than Osbourne ever did. Cairney was a breath of fresh air before he lost form. Docherty might have had some talent, but Clancy is an improvement on him.

This is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them last season:

G Stack
C Booth
P Hanlon
S O'Hanlon
I Murray
D Wotherspoon
M Thornhill
L Stevenson
I Sproule
V Palsson
G O'Connor

M Brown
D Stephens
E de Graaf
D Galbraith
M Scott
S Taggart
D Crawford

and this is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them this season:

B Williams
T Clancy
P Hanlon
J McPake
A Maybury
G Deegan (87)
J Claros
P Cairney
D Wotherspoon (87)
L Griffiths
E Doyle

C Antell
L Stevenson (87)
I Sproule (87)
S Stanton
D Handling
R Caldwell
S Kuqi

Do you honestly think that with the exception of Williams it would be a coin toss as to which team is better?


With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals

I disagree, one thing we have seen time and again this season is that Fenlon has signed players who may not be much better technically, are much better in their attitude.


Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

Agree with this, I think Fenlon has made mistakes this season, but hope that he is learning from them. One thing which encourages me is how the young guys have come in and been able to make a positive difference in the team, this has to be in part down to the manager giving them the right environment to come in and make a difference. I think the signs are that Fenlon will be able to bring on the youngsters, look at how he has helped Griffiths as a player. Harris, Caldwell and Handling certainly don't look scared to try things and to try to play football.

YehButNoBut
31-05-2013, 04:04 PM
This sums up things in the past few years, if you cannot see any improvement this season then I'm amazed.


• Thirty something points the last 2 seasons
• Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
• SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
• Tenth/Eleventh place
• Flirting with relegation
• No Scottish Cup Final for a decade
• European adventures every five years on average
• Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
• Journeymen passing through
• Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
• No youth development
• Disconnect between players, manager, board and supporters
• Disenchanted support, more moaning than singing

VivaPalmeiras
31-05-2013, 04:09 PM
This sums up things in the past few years, if you cannot see any improvement this season then I'm amazed.


• Thirty something points the last 2 seasons
• Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
• SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
• Tenth/Eleventh place
• Flirting with relegation
• No Scottish Cup Final for a decade
• European adventures every five years on average
• Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
• Journeymen passing through
• Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
• No youth development
• Disconnect between players, manager, board and supporters
• Disenchanted support, more moaning than singing

We haven't caught many opposition out with the ole sprinkler gag ... :(

Treadstone
31-05-2013, 04:11 PM
On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

Disagree. The 4-5-1 we played for about four months never suited Leigh. That he scored a lot of goals were practically down to himself and his ability to get goals out of nothing. If we can keep him and sign a creative player I would be fairly confident of him scoring at least as many again and more striker type goals like his 1st in the semi.

eastterrace
31-05-2013, 08:15 PM
I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

what a load o tosh , if we had played hearts it would have been probably 5-1 again, the reason it was that score in the first place was we got a man sent of and they got a penalty that wasnt, so would that have happened again on sunday dont think so,

neil7908
01-06-2013, 09:47 AM
FWIW
My Hibs report Card Season 2012-2013

Summary
Overall Hibs have made progress this season. The application is still a bit patchy and some dreadful slumps in form meant all the good work at the front was spoilt. After being second in the league at the end of November to end up in the bottom 6 was disappointing.

Results wise the clean sheet versus Hearts this year was a real milestone. We saw in the first game at ER that Hibs were not going to be pushovers. It made me laugh to read after that game that the Hearts fans were seeking protection for their “flair” players from the hammer throwers in the Hibs side. The assaults carried out by some of their SFA registered thugs over the years on our players with little or no recourse remain points of contention between me and any Jambo that want to argue!

We performed better against the League leaders than we have for some time, which was positive. Our attention tends to wander and a lack of application and getting ourselves dirty against the more committed members of this football league cost us a hell of a lot of points. To not beat Ross Country at all over 3 games tells it’s own tale.

The cup run was superb they players and the fans connected and despite an absurd semi-final performance Hibs secured a cup final slot. In the final Hibs were well beaten by a better and more committed team.

The support for this team can grow if they identify that the management of the club have a plan and are slowly working towards the goal. Impacti4ence can best describe a fan. Most of the arguments on this forum and those I see at matches between supporters of the same team are over semantics and caused by differences in perspective.

The manager is has his weaknesses, there is no doubt about that but he does seem to be focussed on bringing a winning mentality to the club. Signing players who HATE to lose and will not be slow in challenging those around them who are not performing.
If we (the fans) give the manager time and are prepared to accept the long game I think we could see some exciting times ahead. We do need a bit of luck in signings, persuading players to moe to ER is not easy but being involved in Europe may sway some. A decent draw and progression would certainly help.

As a club we are viewed by the media as a bit player in the league, and based on results who can ague coherently against that? The only way they (the media) will change their views on our club if we stick it to the other clubs on a regular basis and are up there challenging on all counts at the season’s end.

Support. We need more bums on seats. We’ve a great stadium but even when we have 10k in it seems only half full (probably because it is!!) I welcome any marketing initiative that will get more fans along to games. The Euro qualifiers make a good start point. Cut price tickets. Signed shirt draws. Half time team talks, video screens showing great goals, anything to get the fans back. The main event needs to be entertaining almost as much as winning.
The club needs to help this by improving communication. The initiatives already underway fans feedback groups, Hibs tweets etc all help but a lot more can be done. The club must engage the fans and get them to feel part of the set up.


Barring league reconstruction we have 2 more seasons without Newco. Our goal must be to be no.2 in Scotland before that happens.

It starts today.

I'd largely agree with this and don't really have much to add regarding this season.

I would say that the bit in bold is crucial for me. We have progressed, the team are better than when Fenlon arrived but next season will be huge for us. Fenlon has now had a decent length of time at the club and team next year will be 100% his own.

I'm encouraged by the players we have signed up already and I think we have the right man for the job. It will be a challenge though to turn us into a team that are competing at the right end of the table for the full season. Top 6 is a bare minimum, plus a decent performance in the 2 cups (although I think a 3rd final in a row will be very difficult).

We also need to look at adding more creativity and attacking threat to the team. We saw some great displays last year in spells, followed by some awful games where we looked lost going forward. Even if we can somehow keep Leigh we need to get a couple more players in to share the goals and take the pressure off the shoulders of young Harris, who has already become a vital player for us. We lose him, we lose the only real source of pace and directness currently at the club.

There is a great chance for a club/clubs in Scotland to fill the gap left by Rangers demise and Hibs are one of the best placed to do so. Clubs like Motherwell, Dundee Utd, Inverness etc are all losing players and although that is the case with us, we should be in a much better position to strengthen and make a real push for 2nd.

SaulGoodman
01-06-2013, 10:06 AM
This is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them last season:

G Stack
C Booth
P Hanlon
S O'Hanlon
I Murray
D Wotherspoon
M Thornhill
L Stevenson
I Sproule
V Palsson
G O'Connor

M Brown
D Stephens
E de Graaf
D Galbraith
M Scott
S Taggart
.

I think I'm going to be sick.

Future17
01-06-2013, 10:11 AM
I think the singling out of Griffiths is harsh, we have made progress since narrowly avoiding relegation.

3 or 4 teams had players that carried them this year, Griffiths was mediocre last year but a revelation this year. Where would motherwell have been without Higdons 26 goals? Billy McKay scored 23 for ICT, McGinn scored 20 for aberdeen who finished in a worse position than us.

What I am trying to say is that there are at least 4 teams that if you remove ONE player from them there league position pretty much turns upside down or worse.

We are less of a pushover than previous seasons but we still had that large post new year spell where in hibs tradition we play very poorly. This year it coincided with McPake's form dipping and Wotherspoon and Cairney vanishing from the wings, all of a sudden we were a team with a flat defensive midfield and only one attacking outlet in griffiths.

My point, obviously quite poorly made, is that Griffiths has been such a revelation this season, everything about the way we play going forward is built around him. That has worked for us this season because he's been on fire but, in my opinion, it's been done at the expense of progress elsewhere on the pitch which has meant that the team hasn't improved overall. That was my point which I was too lazy to make in greater detail (and still am), but I think it's on a similar line to what you're saying about Wotherspoon and Cairney dropping out of the lineup.

I wasn't comparing us against other SPL teams; I was comparing us this season against us from last season. However, to pick up on your point, taking Griffiths out of the equation leaves us with only 2 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Doyle (10) and Wotherspoon (4). Taking Higdon out of the equation for Motherwell leaves them with 7 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Murphy (10), Law (6), McFadden (5), Ojaama (4) and Hately, Humphrey and McHugh (all 3).

Even discounting the 9 goals from the last 3 of those players, that's 11 goals from other positions which we didn't get. It's debatable whether or not we have the players capable of scoring these "missing" goals, but we certainly don't have the tactics to allow them to do so.


But would they have won 5-1 with Collum instead of Thomson in charge?

If you can't see any improvement over last year you must be visually impaired.

Yes Griffiths scored a lot of goals but we wouldn't have had to play with 10 men if he hadn't been around. I'm sure most other teams would have been the same. Where would Motherwell have been without Higdon or Hertz without Ngoo?

Definite improvement over the previous season but still work to be done.

Thomson was atrocious last year, but I think we all know he didn't play as big a part in our defeat as we did.

I realise that we wouldn't have played with 10 without Griffths, but it's very unlikely that we would have got someone else who would have contributed as many goals. However, what may have happened is that the corresponding lack of reliance on one striker would have altered our tactics to allow more goals from elsewhere on the pitch. As it stands, we simply don't know what we will be capable of without Griffths.

I've addressed the Mothewell without Higdon point above, but Hearts without Ngoo would be a scary propsect. :greengrin


If yer auntie had baws she'd be yer uncle etc - and if your argument had any more holes it would be a collander.

Griffiths WAS with us last season and we were almost relegated - this season we finished c 20 points better off, beating the Yamboloids twice along the way - but you see no progress?!?

There's none so blind as those that refuse to see :rolleyes:

Griffiths was with us last season but he wasn't playing the role he has been this season because O'Connor was the main man. This season, everything has been set up around Griffiths which has meant he has improved enormously, but the rest of the team hasn't.

I suppose a good way to evaluate my point would be to guesstimate where we would be if we had just finished the season with a striker other than Griffiths playing that role.

I'm not saying that we haven't had a decent season, I'm saying we haven't improved as a team.


So the main arguments for your extremely damning indictment that we haven't improved at all (when we clearly have by any measurable means), are the extremely tired 'where would be without Griffiths?' question, and your prediction of a result from an imaginary match?

I'm sorry you find it tired, but surely it's a fairly important question when assessing our performance over the season - particularly when we are likely to face next season without him?


If we didn't have Griffiths we would have had someone else, they probably wouldn't have had contributed as much as him, but perhaps the team wouldn't have been set up to feed a single player as much and others might have contributed more? You just cannot take one player out of one team and assume we are going to play the season with 10 men, unless you decide to do it with the other teams too. Where would Motherwell be without Higdon, or ICT without MacKay, or Aberdeen without McGinn. What's wrong with a manager building a team around a talent that he has and focussing on that talents' strengths?

I totally agree; my point being that the focus on Griffiths, whilst often benefitting us results-wise, has been to the detriment of the progression of the team overall. I don't think there's anything wrong with a manager building a team around an exceptional player and I'm certainly not having a go at Fenlon; my point is that the team hasn't developed this season and, without Griffiths, we'll have to completely reorganise the way we play.


Rubbish. Are you saying McGivern isn't better than Kujabi? Taiwo is contributing more than Osbourne ever did. Cairney was a breath of fresh air before he lost form. Docherty might have had some talent, but Clancy is an improvement on him.

For some reason I was thinking McGivern was here last season, so I accept he's been a slight improvement on what we had previously and will hopefully continue to improve as he's still young.

I like Cairney, but his form was always mixed. We don't know what's gone on behind the scenes which has resulted in him all but disappearing, but I don't think he improved what we already had and I don't think he will get a game ahead of Handling and Harris etc.

Taiwo has improved in recent weeks, but I don't agree that he's improved the team. I don't think Clancy has improved us either.


This is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them last season:

G Stack
C Booth
P Hanlon
S O'Hanlon
I Murray
D Wotherspoon
M Thornhill
L Stevenson
I Sproule
V Palsson
G O'Connor

M Brown
D Stephens
E de Graaf
D Galbraith
M Scott
S Taggart
D Crawford

and this is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them this season:

B Williams
T Clancy
P Hanlon
J McPake
A Maybury
G Deegan (87)
J Claros
P Cairney
D Wotherspoon (87)
L Griffiths
E Doyle

C Antell
L Stevenson (87)
I Sproule (87)
S Stanton
D Handling
R Caldwell
S Kuqi

Do you honestly think that with the exception of Williams it would be a coin toss as to which team is better?

The team that beat Dunfermline 4-0 at Easter Road at the end of last season was:

Brown, Doherty, Hanlon, McPake, Kujabi, Claros, Soares, Stevenson, Osbourne, O'Connor and Doyle.

With the exception of Griffiths, is that team any worse "on paper" than the team that took the field in the majority of games this season?


Agree with this, I think Fenlon has made mistakes this season, but hope that he is learning from them. One thing which encourages me is how the young guys have come in and been able to make a positive difference in the team, this has to be in part down to the manager giving them the right environment to come in and make a difference. I think the signs are that Fenlon will be able to bring on the youngsters, look at how he has helped Griffiths as a player. Harris, Caldwell and Handling certainly don't look scared to try things and to try to play football.

:agree:


Disagree. The 4-5-1 we played for about four months never suited Leigh. That he scored a lot of goals were practically down to himself and his ability to get goals out of nothing. If we can keep him and sign a creative player I would be fairly confident of him scoring at least as many again and more striker type goals like his 1st in the semi.

But that's what the tactics appeared to be - get the ball to Griffiths and hope he conjures up something magical. It's purely because of his workrate and movement off the ball that these tactics worked against most SPL defences.


what a load o tosh , if we had played hearts it would have been probably 5-1 again, the reason it was that score in the first place was we got a man sent of and they got a penalty that wasnt, so would that have happened again on sunday dont think so,

As I've stated above, the defeat last May was as much our own doing as anyone external influence. Kidding ourselves over that will only hold us back.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 08:55 AM
I'm sorry you find it tired, but surely it's a fairly important question when assessing our performance over the season - particularly when we are likely to face next season without him?


Questioning how well we will fair without Griffiths in the future is perfectly valid - guessing how we would have done without him retrospectively has absolutely no value whatsoever, and it's ridiculous to use such speculation to claim that we haven't improved as a team.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 09:01 AM
Good start, terrible going into Nov, great cup run, but some eye bleeding football. Prob 5 games out the whole season i've sat and enjoyed. The rest have been grim.

I hope the football improves this season, as Pat said that would happen once he got us stabilised. If not and it's continues to be poor and another bottom 6 finish then with out a shadow of a doubt he should be punted.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 09:14 AM
Good start, terrible going into Nov, great cup run, but some eye bleeding football. Prob 5 games out the whole season i've sat and enjoyed. The rest have been grim.

I hope the football improves this season, as Pat said that would happen once he got us stabilised. If not and it's continues to be poor and another bottom 6 finish then with out a shadow of a doubt he should be punted.

How many games have you seen?

And "terrible going into November?" - we had 3 league games in October and won 2 of them. We won 3 out of our 5 league games in November, and one of the two we lost was a smash and grab by Aberdeen.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 09:33 AM
How many games have you seen?

And "terrible going into November?" - we had 3 league games in October and won 2 of them. We won 3 out of our 5 league games in November, and one of the two we lost was a smash and grab by Aberdeen.

Ok Dec then. :greengrin

I agree about the Aberdeen game we really should have won that one. But if you think we played well most of the season I'd say you are watching through green glasses. Most games this season have been poor on the eye at best. If you don't agree that's fair enough.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 09:49 AM
Ok Dec then. :greengrin

I agree about the Aberdeen game we really should have won that one. But if you think we played well most of the season I'd say you are watching through green glasses. Most games this season have been poor on the eye at best. If you don't agree that's fair enough.

I didn't at any point say that, but I've seen the vast majority of Hibs games this season and the spell that we had in which we were undeniably woefully negative and hardly won a game has been blown massively out of proportion by a lot of people, IMO.

Without any green specs on at all, I've just looked through our league results on Wikipedia and counted 18 games (wins, draws and losses) that I enjoyed. Throw in the cup run and you have 22. Out of 44 games (only 9 of which I didn't see - including 4 away wins), I enjoyed half - more than in the last few seasons combined.

Pat Fenlon is not a negative manager, I have seen more than enough to know that for sure, and I've enjoyed going to ER this season more than I have in a number of years - we have had more good days and great results than any season since 2007, IMO. I agree that if we're not top 6 at the very least next season then Fenlon should go, but it depresses me how many posters on here allow the mid season slump to define him.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 10:05 AM
I didn't at any point say that, but I've seen the vast majority of Hibs games this season and the spell that we had in which we were undeniably woefully negative and hardly won a game has been blown massively out of proportion by a lot of people, IMO.

Without any green specs on at all, I've just looked through our league results on Wikipedia and counted 18 games (wins, draws and losses) that I enjoyed. Throw in the cup run and you have 22. Out of 44 games (only 9 of which I didn't see - including 4 away wins), I enjoyed half - more than in the last few seasons combined.

Pat Fenlon is not a negative manager, I have seen more than enough to know that for sure, and I've enjoyed going to ER this season more than I have in a number of years - we have had more good days and great results than any season since 2007, IMO. I agree that if we're not top 6 at the very least next season then Fenlon should go, but it depresses me how many posters on here allow the mid season slump to define him.

That's the thing, this is just an opinion. You enjoyed a lot more games than me. I don't agree that Hibs played well in half these games win/lose or draw. I also think he is a negative manager, but in some games he had to be. He could have changed his tactics in a lot of games as well but stuck with long ball to Griffiths. I'm not using the slump to say we were rotten. We won a few games while playing rotten and long ball. Sorry but that's not what I call being entertained. Again though just my opinion. Many will agree along with many who won't. So over all, I didn't think Hibs were anywhere near playing well last season bar a handful of games, and I hope this season we try to play more attacking football with the ball on the deck.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 10:11 AM
That's the thing, this is just an opinion. You enjoyed a lot more games than me. I don't agree that Hibs played well in half these games win/lose or draw. I also think he is a negative manager, but in some games he had to be. He could have changed his tactics in a lot of games as well but stuck with long ball to Griffiths. I'm not using the slump to say we were rotten. We won a few games while playing rotten and long ball. Sorry but that's not what I call being entertained. Again though just my opinion. Many will agree along with many who won't. So over all, I didn't think Hibs were anywhere near playing well last season bar a handful of games, and I hope this season we try to play more attacking football with the ball on the deck.

Of course opinions differ, I just find it unbelievable that you only enjoyed 5 games this season (especially when we won 17). I didn't claim that I enjoyed every victory, btw - there were even two defeats where I enjoyed the game.

Incidentally, which games did we win by playing the long ball?

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 10:23 AM
Of course opinions differ, I just find it unbelievable that you only enjoyed 5 games this season (especially when we won 17). I didn't claim that I enjoyed every victory, btw - there were even two defeats where I enjoyed the game.

Incidentally, which games did we win by playing the long ball?

Off the top of my head we beat Hearts in the Scottish and played long ball most of that game. Away to St. Mirren we played long ball. Also a home defeat against ICT was another long ball to Griffiths most of the game. I'm not the only one BTW, if you watched Pat Nevin on Sportscene talking about us. He often spoke about how we relied on long balls to Griffiths. Sometimes the long ball worked and we managed a win or draw. I personally prefer watching attacking football at ER and not a fan of 4-5-1. It's nice when he does change it and try to attack but to often he's a very defensive minded manager.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 10:35 AM
Off the top of my head we beat Hearts in the Scottish and played long ball most of that game. Away to St. Mirren we played long ball. Also a home defeat against ICT was another long ball to Griffiths most of the game. I'm not the only one BTW, if you watched Pat Nevin on Sportscene talking about us. He often spoke about how we relied on long balls to Griffiths. Sometimes the long ball worked and we managed a win or draw. I personally prefer watching attacking football at ER and not a fan of 4-5-1. It's nice when he does change it and try to attack but to often he's a very defensive minded manager.

We didn't play the long ball against Hearts, we were just *****e going forward until we scored. This is a point that I've made several times before - there's a difference between a team being negative and simply playing badly, and I'm perfectly aware that for a large chunk of the season we were not worth watching.

I was no less disappointed than anyone else at our bad run of form, but I do not agree that he is too often negative. You don't need me to tell you that you are entitled to your opinion, but when you go through our individual results this season, there are many games where it is surely undeniable that we have played in the right way.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 10:41 AM
We didn't play the long ball against Hearts, we were just *****e going forward until we scored. This is a point that I've made several times before - there's a difference between a team being negative and simply playing badly, and I'm perfectly aware that for a large chunk of the season we were not worth watching.

I was no less disappointed than anyone else at our bad run of form, but I do not agree that he is too often negative. You don't need me to tell you that you are entitled to your opinion, but when you go through our individual results this season, there are many games where it is surely undeniable that we have played in the right way.

We played many a long ball that night, along with playing *****. Was a great result mind you. I agree playing negative and playing badly are two different things. Sadly Hibs for a lot of games done both in games.

Out of interest what games do you think Fenlon played attacking atractive football? Doesn't have to be a win just the games you think? This isn't a go at Fenlon btw just would like to know what you see different from myself. I just can't think of many if i'm honest.

Part/Time Supporter
03-06-2013, 10:56 AM
I wasn't comparing us against other SPL teams; I was comparing us this season against us from last season. However, to pick up on your point, taking Griffiths out of the equation leaves us with only 2 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Doyle (10) and Wotherspoon (4). Taking Higdon out of the equation for Motherwell leaves them with 7 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Murphy (10), Law (6), McFadden (5), Ojaama (4) and Hately, Humphrey and McHugh (all 3).

Even discounting the 9 goals from the last 3 of those players, that's 11 goals from other positions which we didn't get. It's debatable whether or not we have the players capable of scoring these "missing" goals, but we certainly don't have the tactics to allow them to do so.

Hibs won't be able to replace Griffiths from 12/13, probably even if they sign Griffiths again! Therefore they need to replace him (and others) in the aggregate. Hibs have already signed a midfielder who scored 7 SPL goals in 12/13, 7 in 11/12, 5 in 10/11 and 8 in 09/10 (Liam Craig), which is replacing a mixture of mostly Cairney (two goals) and Done (none). Harris created some goals and scored in the semi-final, during the short stint he had in the team. You'd hope to get more from Caldwell (scored two in the post split games).

If they can replace Griffiths and Doyle with two players (even if that includes Griffiths himself) with two players who score 25-30 between them, they should score more goals overall due to Craig + younger players coming through.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 11:05 AM
We played many a long ball that night, along with playing *****. Was a great result mind you. I agree playing negative and playing badly are two different things. Sadly Hibs for a lot of games done both in games.

Out of interest what games do you think Fenlon played attacking atractive football? Doesn't have to be a win just the games you think? This isn't a go at Fenlon btw just would like to know what you see different from myself. I just can't think of many if i'm honest.


The Hearts cup game is a good example of what I am saying though. We played 4-4-2 with Cairney and Wotherspoon out wide and Griffiths and Doyle up front - our set up wasn't negative at all, and it was fear of playing football that resulted in the ball being lumped forward. It certainly wasn't a tactic. In fact, although I do think our team set up has been far too defensive in many games this season, I don't believe for one second that Fenlon in any game instructed the players to simply lump it forward.

Cool, I'll list the games that I have enjoyed this season: -



Sun 12
12:30
Hearts
H
SPL
D
1-1
12,887


Sat 25
15:00
St Johnstone
H
SPL
W
2-0
9,639


Sat 15
15:00
Kilmarnock
H
SPL
W
2-1
9,723


Sat 22
15:00
Inverness Caledonian Thistle
H
SPL
D
2-2
9,908


Sat 6
15:00
Dundee
H
SPL
W
3-0
10,163


Fri 26
19:45
Motherwell
A
SPL
W
0-4
5,301


Sat 3
15:00
St Mirren
H
SPL
W
2-1
10,358


Sun 11
12:45
Dundee United
H
SPL
W
2-1
10,596


Sat 24
15:00
Aberdeen
H
SPL
L
0-1
12,007


Sat 15
15:00
Motherwell
H
SPL
L
2-3
8,817


Sat 29
15:00
Celtic
H
SPL
W
1-0
16,805


Sun 24
16:30
Dundee United
A
SPL
D
2-2
6,160


Wed 27
19:45
Kilmarnock
H
SPL
D
2-2
8,121


Sat 27
15:00
St Mirren
H
SPL
D
3-3
9,264


Sun 12
12:00
Hearts
A
SPL
W
1-2
15,994


Sat 18
15:00
Dundee
H
SPL
W
1-0
9,522



That doesn't include the cup games. There should be two more league games in there (2-2 away to Celtic and 2-1 away defeat to Aberdeen, but the table was messing up when I tried to add them in).

I appreciate some may be up for debate, but in those games I enjoyed the way we played for much of the game (not all in the matches that we lost).

The Modfather
03-06-2013, 11:05 AM
We didn't play the long ball against Hearts, we were just *****e going forward until we scored. This is a point that I've made several times before - there's a difference between a team being negative and simply playing badly, and I'm perfectly aware that for a large chunk of the season we were not worth watching.

While you are referring to the cup game, and it is merely one game I am about to comment on, which doesn't prove anything outwith that game.

The New Year derby at Tynecastle was a crime to football. The biggest 4-5-1 I have ever seen. 3 DM's with not one single player crossing the half way line to support Griffiths. It was truly horrendous to watch. I could understand it if we were at the Nou Camp, but it was a poor Hearts team we were playing. I hope to never see us set up like that again.

Whether it was through the players at his disposal or design, I feel Fenlon has set us up not to lose, rather than set up to win, far too many times last season.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 11:13 AM
The Hearts cup game is a good example of what I am saying though. We played 4-4-2 with Cairney and Wotherspoon out wide and Griffiths and Doyle up front - our set up wasn't negative at all, and it was fear of playing football that resulted in the ball being lumped forward. It certainly wasn't a tactic. In fact, although I do think our team set up has been far too defensive in many games this season, I don't believe for one second that Fenlon in any game instructed the players to simply lump it forward.

Cool, I'll list the games that I have enjoyed this season: -



Sun 12
12:30
Hearts
H
SPL
D
1-1
12,887


Sat 25
15:00
St Johnstone
H
SPL
W
2-0
9,639


Sat 15
15:00
Kilmarnock
H
SPL
W
2-1
9,723


Sat 22
15:00
Inverness Caledonian Thistle
H
SPL
D
2-2
9,908


Sat 6
15:00
Dundee
H
SPL
W
3-0
10,163


Fri 26
19:45
Motherwell
A
SPL
W
0-4
5,301


Sat 3
15:00
St Mirren
H
SPL
W
2-1
10,358


Sun 11
12:45
Dundee United
H
SPL
W
2-1
10,596


Sat 24
15:00
Aberdeen
H
SPL
L
0-1
12,007


Sat 15
15:00
Motherwell
H
SPL
L
2-3
8,817


Sat 29
15:00
Celtic
H
SPL
W
1-0
16,805


Sun 24
16:30
Dundee United
A
SPL
D
2-2
6,160


Wed 27
19:45
Kilmarnock
H
SPL
D
2-2
8,121


Sat 27
15:00
St Mirren
H
SPL
D
3-3
9,264


Sun 12
12:00
Hearts
A
SPL
W
1-2
15,994


Sat 18
15:00
Dundee
H
SPL
W
1-0
9,522



That doesn't include the cup games. There should be two more league games in there (2-2 away to Celtic and 2-1 away defeat to Aberdeen, but the table was messing up when I tried to add them in).

I appreciate some may be up for debate, but in those games I enjoyed the way we played for much of the game (not all in the matches that we lost).

Actually couple of games in there I did enjoy so maybe 5 was harsh. Most though were still to defensive for me. Sometime when on paper the team he fields looks a 4-4-2 they still end up setting up as a 4-5-1 though. The one thing I hated was how narrow Hibs played. We never used the width of the pitch enough to stretch teams.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 11:14 AM
While you are referring to the cup game, and it is merely one game I am about to comment on, which doesn't prove anything outwith that game.

The New Year derby at Tynecastle was a crime to football. The biggest 4-5-1 I have ever seen. 3 DM's with not one single player crossing the half way line to support Griffiths. It was truly horrendous to watch. I could understand it if we were at the Nou Camp, but it was a poor Hearts team we were playing. I hope to never see us set up like that again.

Whether it was through the players at his disposal or design, I feel Fenlon has set us up not to lose, rather than set up to win, far too many times last season.

Yeah agree fully with that. I don't get managers who set up not to lose in games where we could actually take 3 points.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 11:16 AM
While you are referring to the cup game, and it is merely one game I am about to comment on, which doesn't prove anything outwith that game.

The New Year derby at Tynecastle was a crime to football. The biggest 4-5-1 I have ever seen. 3 DM's with not one single player crossing the half way line to support Griffiths. It was truly horrendous to watch. I could understand it if we were at the Nou Camp, but it was a poor Hearts team we were playing. I hope to never see us set up like that again.

Whether it was through the players at his disposal or design, I feel Fenlon has set us up not to lose, rather than set up to win, far too many times last season.

I disagree that it was too many times, but there were definitely games that we were far too defensive - as I mentioned in my post before this, I don't think that was all down to the manager though.

I argued this point at the time, regardless of the perceived quality of the Hearts team in December, we were still playing at a ground where we usually take nothing and got a point. It was an utterly horrendous game of football and we were too negative but we still had Cairney, Griffiths and Doyle playing, and had chances to win it - as did Hearts.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 11:32 AM
Actually couple of games in there I did enjoy so maybe 5 was harsh. Most though were still to defensive for me. Sometime when on paper the team he fields looks a 4-4-2 they still end up setting up as a 4-5-1 though. The one thing I hated was how narrow Hibs played. We never used the width of the pitch enough to stretch teams.

Which games in that list apart from the Celtic home game were we too defensive?

Agree we were too narrow for much of the season, but Cairney and Wotherspoon's dramatic loss of form was a huge factor in that.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 11:49 AM
Which games in that list apart from the Celtic home game were we too defensive?

Agree we were too narrow for much of the season, but Cairney and Wotherspoon's dramatic loss of form was a huge factor in that.


1-1 with Hearts we were 100% defensive. Both teams that day didn't want to lose. The games you listed I can't remember how we played in all of them and if anyone else can they would be lying. All I know is, most games I watched this season (not all) but most we have been far to defensive. Home to Dundee 1-1 game, 0-0 v dons away, 1-0 defeat away to county are just a few off the top of my head. We were defensive as well away to St. Johnstone but scraped a 1-0 win.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 12:18 PM
1-1 with Hearts we were 100% defensive. Both teams that day didn't want to lose. The games you listed I can't remember how we played in all of them and if anyone else can they would be lying. All I know is, most games I watched this season (not all) but most we have been far to defensive. Home to Dundee 1-1 game, 0-0 v dons away, 1-0 defeat away to county are just a few off the top of my head. We were defensive as well away to St. Johnstone but scraped a 1-0 win.

I remember how we played in those games, and I'm not lying.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 12:20 PM
I remember how we played in those games, and I'm not lying.

LIAR!!!!!! :greengrin

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 12:23 PM
LIAR!!!!!! :greengrin

:cb

green.and.white
03-06-2013, 12:33 PM
Some of the statements made on this thread are unbelievable. This years team is on paper not much worse than last years? You mustn't have ever watche us this season, even when this season got bad, it was never close to what we witnessed last season. Williams is better than brown, same with Clancy over Doherty, McGivern over kujabi, claros now over past claros, taiwo over osbourne, Thomson over soares. We have improved, if you look at the state we were in last year as a club, if you expected a huge turn around in 12 months for us now to be challenging for top 4, then you clearly have no idea. We have made improvement considering what an utter mess we were last season.

SMAXXA
03-06-2013, 12:39 PM
1-1 with Hearts we were 100% defensive. Both teams that day didn't want to lose. The games you listed I can't remember how we played in all of them and if anyone else can they would be lying. All I know is, most games I watched this season (not all) but most we have been far to defensive. Home to Dundee 1-1 game, 0-0 v dons away, 1-0 defeat away to county are just a few off the top of my head. We were defensive as well away to St. Johnstone but scraped a 1-0 win.

That was a smash and grab If I have ever seen one that night :greengrin

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 12:43 PM
That was a smash and grab If I have ever seen one that night :greengrin[/B]

Yeah St. Johnstone must have left thinking how did we lose that? :greengrin

Future17
03-06-2013, 12:44 PM
Questioning how well we will fair without Griffiths in the future is perfectly valid - guessing how we would have done without him retrospectively has absolutely no value whatsoever, and it's ridiculous to use such speculation to claim that we haven't improved as a team.

I disagree. How would you suggest evaluating how we will fair in a future without Griffiths, if not by questioning how we would have done without him in the past season? There is no other way to do it.

It's obviously more complicated than that and other factors have to be considered such as those I've already touched on. However, how we would have fared without Griffiths in the past is the only logical place to start in evaluating how we will do if we have to play without him in the future.

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 12:45 PM
Some of the statements made on this thread are unbelievable. This years team is on paper not much worse than last years? You mustn't have ever watche us this season, even when this season got bad, it was never close to what we witnessed last season. Williams is better than brown, same with Clancy over Doherty, McGivern over kujabi, claros now over past claros, taiwo over osbourne, Thomson over soares. We have improved, if you look at the state we were in last year as a club, if you expected a huge turn around in 12 months for us now to be challenging for top 4, then you clearly have no idea. We have made improvement considering what an utter mess we were last season.

I haven't once said we are as bad as last year :confused: In case you are meaning me. I will say we aren't as good either as some may be making out. But I'm sure If Pat gets his signings in we will Improve even more. If not and a bottom six finish is what happens then he must go. Pretty simple really.

SMAXXA
03-06-2013, 12:49 PM
I haven't once said we are as bad as last year :confused: In case you are meaning me. I will say we aren't as good either as some may be making out. But I'm sure If Pat gets his signings in we will Improve even more. If not and a bottom six finish is what happens then he must go. Pretty simple really.

Even if we ger crippled with injuries and lose key players for large parts of the season? To much of a snap decision to say he should be sacked if we don't finish in the top 6 IMO

Thecat23
03-06-2013, 12:54 PM
Even if we ger crippled with injuries and lose key players for large parts of the season? To much of a snap decision to say he should be sacked if we don't finish in the top 6 IMO

If the football Improves and we can see work in progress then I'd re-think that along with if key players were injured for a long period of time. If it's the same as this season, which BTW he was 45 mins away from losing his job IMO then he should be sacked yes. This is a huge season for Fenlon, be interesting to see how he brings in.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 12:54 PM
I disagree. How would you suggest evaluating how we will fair in a future without Griffiths, if not by questioning how we would have done without him in the past season? There is no other way to do it.

It's obviously more complicated than that and other factors have to be considered such as those I've already touched on. However, how we would have fared without Griffiths in the past is the only logical place to start in evaluating how we will do if we have to play without him in the future.

There's nothing logical about guessing about how the past might have been different.

I said before that asking how we will do without Griffiths in the future is a valid question - however, there is only one way that question will be answered, and that is if he is not with us next season.

Future17
03-06-2013, 01:39 PM
Hibs won't be able to replace Griffiths from 12/13, probably even if they sign Griffiths again! Therefore they need to replace him (and others) in the aggregate. Hibs have already signed a midfielder who scored 7 SPL goals in 12/13, 7 in 11/12, 5 in 10/11 and 8 in 09/10 (Liam Craig), which is replacing a mixture of mostly Cairney (two goals) and Done (none). Harris created some goals and scored in the semi-final, during the short stint he had in the team. You'd hope to get more from Caldwell (scored two in the post split games).

If they can replace Griffiths and Doyle with two players (even if that includes Griffiths himself) with two players who score 25-30 between them, they should score more goals overall due to Craig + younger players coming through.

I totally agree with the part in bold, however I think that will require more than a change in personnel; it will require a change in strategy and tactics.

It's not as simple as signing players who have scored goals for other teams, you have to play in a way which allows those players to score goals. Cairney averaged about 1 in 4 for Partick and about 1 in 15 for us. Doyle had a much better goal record at his last club prior to leaving Ireland. Obviously, that was in a different division/league, but it still illustrates the point.

On a slight departure from points previously made, you make an interesting point regarding replacing the goals scored by players who have left/may leave. This seaon Doyle and Griffiths scored 33 league goals between them. If we replace those goals through a combination of new signings and young players coming that's one thing, but if we aim a little higher who knows what we might achieve?

Motherwell finished 2nd this season scoring 67 goals, conceding 51. We scored 49, conceding 52. However, Higdon only hit 3 more than Griffiths. That's 15 goals coming from elsewhere in the team. In theory, as I've been advocating, we need to be looking to produce more goals from elsewhere in the team. However, looking at things another way:

St Johnstone finished 3rd scoring 45 goals; 4 goals fewer than we did. They conceded 8 fewer goals, meaning their goal difference was 4 better than ours. However, they finished 3rd. Obviously it can't be as simple as to say that 4 goals was the difference between 3rd and 6th over the course of the season and there are a number of factors involved. However, we lost 7 games over the season by a 1-goal margin and we draw 12 games. Had we scored an extra goal in each of those games, we would have accumulated an extra 31 points - enough to make us champions! :greengrin

As I say, I'm not suggesting it's as simple as that and I know people say that you can prove anything with statistics, but it's an interesting place to start as long as you can work back and work out the reasons behind the figures which emerge.

Future17
03-06-2013, 01:43 PM
There's nothing logical about guessing about how the past might have been different.

I said before that asking how we will do without Griffiths in the future is a valid question - however, there is only one way that question will be answered, and that is if he is not with us next season.

OK, let me put it another way; right now, at this very moment, how would you assess how the current team would be likely to perform without Griffiths?

EDIT: I've just noticed that you've said in your previous post that we can't answer that question until we actually play without him - would you be happy with Fenlon taking that approach?

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 01:55 PM
OK, let me put it another way; right now, at this very moment, how would you assess how the current team would be likely to perform without Griffiths?

EDIT: I've just noticed that you've said in your previous post that we can't answer that question until we actually play without him - would you be happy with Fenlon taking that approach?

What's the point in me even guessing at that? Do you mean the current team with no Doyle, Thomson and Claros as well, and with Craig and Tudur-Jones in midfield? Or the team that finished the cup final minus Griffiths? Who goes in his place? I don't even know what the current team is. There is no value whatsoever in predicting how we would have done without him.

With regards to your second point, what approach do you mean?

Future17
03-06-2013, 02:10 PM
What's the point in me even guessing at that? Do you mean the current team with no Doyle, Thomson and Claros as well, and with Craig and Tudur-Jones in midfield? Or the team that finished the cup final minus Griffiths? Who goes in his place? I don't even know what the current team is. There is no value whatsoever in predicting how we would have done without him.

With regards to your second point, what approach do you mean?

The point is that an essential part of the job carried out by Fenlon and his backroom staff is planning. They will, more often that not, have a much better idea of what the Hibs playing staff will look like on a rolling basis 6-12 months ahead.

From the moment Griffiths arrived at Hibs, the balance of probabilities led us to believe he would here for the (relatively) short-term. Whilst I am certainly not knocking Fenlon for building a team around an exceptional talent like Griffiths had shown he is this season, he has a duty to continually evaluate that team in the future context (i.e. without Griffiths). If he considered that the squad, strategy, tactics etc without Griffiths (but obviously including another striker) would be good enough to take us where he believes we can go, then he would only need to make minimal changes during the summer. For example, only replacing departing players and/or bringing in "improved" versions of players who do a certain jon in the current set-up.

However, if he considered that the squad, strategy, tactics etc without Griffiths (but obviously including another striker) would not be good enough to take us where he believes we can go, then he would need to consider what changes he requires to make to ensure he can move us forward.

A manager who knows that he may lose his main player, but hasn't evaluated how his team would perform without him, isn't doing his job in my opinion. It's basic planning and planning is one of the basic tenets of management in any organisation.

FWIW, I'm not suggesting that Fenlon has failed to do this, I'm just explaining why it's important to do so as you don't seem to agree?

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 02:26 PM
The point is that an essential part of the job carried out by Fenlon and his backroom staff is planning. They will, more often that not, have a much better idea of what the Hibs playing staff will look like on a rolling basis 6-12 months ahead.

From the moment Griffiths arrived at Hibs, the balance of probabilities led us to believe he would here for the (relatively) short-term. Whilst I am certainly not knocking Fenlon for building a team around an exceptional talent like Griffiths had shown he is this season, he has a duty to continually evaluate that team in the future context (i.e. without Griffiths). If he considered that the squad, strategy, tactics etc without Griffiths (but obviously including another striker) would be good enough to take us where he believes we can go, then he would only need to make minimal changes during the summer. For example, only replacing departing players and/or bringing in "improved" versions of players who do a certain jon in the current set-up.

However, if he considered that the squad, strategy, tactics etc without Griffiths (but obviously including another striker) would not be good enough to take us where he believes we can go, then he would need to consider what changes he requires to make to ensure he can move us forward.

A manager who knows that he may lose his main player, but hasn't evaluated how his team would perform without him, isn't doing his job in my opinion. It's basic planning and planning is one of the basic tenets of management in any organisation.

FWIW, I'm not suggesting that Fenlon has failed to do this, I'm just explaining why it's important to do so as you don't seem to agree?

I am fully aware of the importance of succession planning for a manager, and have absolutely no doubt that Pat is doing everything necessary and will have alternatives lined up should we fail to secure Griffiths - hopefully they won't be necessary.

However, I very much doubt that any part of Pat's evaluation has been to retrospectively go back over our results and wonder how we would have performed without Griffiths, as I fail to see how it would work, and what that exercise could possibly gain. The process of building our team for 2013-14 is still ongoing, and hopefully Leigh will be a part of that - if not, someone else will come in.

The point I initially made remains - looking forward, how we replace Leigh (if we need to) is a massive question. Asking how we would have done without him this season, is entirely superfluous.

green.and.white
03-06-2013, 02:39 PM
I haven't once said we are as bad as last year :confused: In case you are meaning me. I will say we aren't as good either as some may be making out. But I'm sure If Pat gets his signings in we will Improve even more. If not and a bottom six finish is what happens then he must go. Pretty simple really.

That wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Fenlon had/has a huge job on him rebuilding the club after the mess left by calderwood, and I just do not understand the few people on here being negative towards the 'lack of progress'. One year and 2 transfer windows (considering last year we would have been a pretty unattractive option to many potential players) isn't enough time. This time next year we will have a better idea of where the club and Pat are :flag:

Future17
03-06-2013, 02:44 PM
I am fully aware of the importance of succession planning for a manager, and have absolutely no doubt that Pat is doing everything necessary and will have alternatives lined up should we fail to secure Griffiths - hopefully they won't be necessary.

However, I very much doubt that any part of Pat's evaluation has been to retrospectively go back over our results and wonder how we would have performed without Griffiths, as I fail to see how it would work, and what that exercise could possibly gain. The process of building our team for 2013-14 is still ongoing, and hopefully Leigh will be a part of that - if not, someone else will come in.

The point I initially made remains - looking forward, how we replace Leigh (if we need to) is a massive question. Asking how we would have done without him this season, is entirely superfluous.

I disagree. A manager must be capable of knowing how his team would be likely to play with or without certain players - otherwise how would he pick the team in the event of injuries? How would he make substitutions?

To reword my previous question, how do you think a manager plans for losing a key player like Griffiths and the impact that will have on the way his team plays?

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 02:55 PM
I disagree. A manager must be capable of knowing how his team would be likely to play with or without certain players - otherwise how would he pick the team in the event of injuries? How would he make substitutions?

To reword my previous question, how do you think a manager plans for losing a key player like Griffiths and the impact that will have on the way his team plays?

This is getting ridiculous. Working out how to cope with injuries/suspensions/loss of players by other means does not come from imagining how your previous results would have been without them in the games that they were available. How would it work anyway, you still haven't answered that? When you imagine us playing without Leigh, are we playing with ten men or another forward in his place? If it's the latter, who comes in his place?

If we lose Leigh Griffiths, Pat will sign who he believes to be the best forward available to us for the money on offer.

Part/Time Supporter
03-06-2013, 03:05 PM
Hibs played two games without Griffiths last season, a 2-2 draw with Inverness and a 3-1 win at Kilmarnock.

Stevie Reid
03-06-2013, 03:08 PM
Hibs played two games without Griffiths last season, a 2-2 draw with Inverness and a 3-1 win at Kilmarnock.

The first 45 minutes against ICT was possibly our best first half at ER last season.

Billy Whizz
03-06-2013, 03:09 PM
The first 45 minutes against ICT was possibly our best first half at ER last season.

Nah, the 2nd half against Falkirk was

Future17
03-06-2013, 04:39 PM
This is getting ridiculous. Working out how to cope with injuries/suspensions/loss of players by other means does not come from imagining how your previous results would have been without them in the games that they were available. How would it work anyway, you still haven't answered that? When you imagine us playing without Leigh, are we playing with ten men or another forward in his place? If it's the latter, who comes in his place?

If we lose Leigh Griffiths, Pat will sign who he believes to be the best forward available to us for the money on offer.

When picking players, devising a strategy, organising tactics etc. a manager has to be imagining how the players will play together and how the system will work. As a first stage of planning for the future without one key player (which is what this discussion started on), you would naturally draw on your knowledge of the players already at your club. This would naturally come from games you have watched them play previously.

I've clearly stated already that the planning would be done with another player in place of the missing player so, in this case, another striker for Griffiths. The whole point of this exercise would be to evaluate whether you believe you could replace this player with another in a straigt swap and achieve the same (or better) results; so, in this case, whether Fenlon believes he can bring in a striker who will do the job that Griffiths did last season with the same players around him, same tactics etc. My original point being that I doubt anyone believes we are capable of replacing Griffiths with such a player. Last season's tactics relied too much on his movement, pace and ability to produce something out of nothing. In replacing Griffiths, we will have to re-evaluate everything about the way we play in order to move forward.

I'm hoping this answers your question so that you can answer mine which I will again reword: if you don't think this is how managers do this, how do you think they do do it?!? You've said that "if we lose Leigh Griffiths, Pat will sign who he believes to be the best forward available to us for the money on offer" but surely you must accept that there are different types of forward (i.e. Riordan was different to O'Connor, Higdon is different to McFadden etc)? How do you decide who is the best forward in those circumstances?

SMAXXA
03-06-2013, 05:01 PM
When picking players, devising a strategy, organising tactics etc. a manager has to be imagining how the players will play together and how the system will work. As a first stage of planning for the future without one key player (which is what this discussion started on), you would naturally draw on your knowledge of the players already at your club. This would naturally come from games you have watched them play previously.

I've clearly stated already that the planning would be done with another player in place of the missing player so, in this case, another striker for Griffiths. The whole point of this exercise would be to evaluate whether you believe you could replace this player with another in a straigt swap and achieve the same (or better) results; so, in this case, whether Fenlon believes he can bring in a striker who will do the job that Griffiths did last season with the same players around him, same tactics etc. My original point being that I doubt anyone believes we are capable of replacing Griffiths with such a player. Last season's tactics relied too much on his movement, pace and ability to produce something out of nothing. In replacing Griffiths, we will have to re-evaluate everything about the way we play in order to move forward.

I'm hoping this answers your question so that you can answer mine which I will again reword: if you don't think this is how managers do this, how do you think they do do it?!? You've said that "if we lose Leigh Griffiths, Pat will sign who he believes to be the best forward available to us for the money on offer" but surely you must accept that there are different types of forward (i.e. Riordan was different to O'Connor, Higdon is different to McFadden etc)? How do you decide who is the best forward in those circumstances?

To be honest I have been following your discussion with Stevie back and forward and reading the above I have no idea what you are trying to get at? A lot of words but no real obvious point as far as I can see? Not slating you for a moment just as an objective bystander I have no idea what your point actually is? :confused:

Future17
03-06-2013, 05:14 PM
To be honest I have been following your discussion with Stevie back and forward and reading the above I have no idea what you are trying to get at? A lot of words but no real obvious point as far as I can see? Not slating you for a moment just as an objective bystander I have no idea what your point actually is? :confused:

That's reassuring. :greengrin

To be honest, I can accept myself that the discussion has done of on a bit of a tangent. To attempt to summarise:

I think Stevie and I are disagreeing about whether there is any validity in imagining how your team would have played without it's key player.

My point is, if we play next season without Griffiths, we'll achieve less than we did this season unless we can replace him with someone who will score as many goals or more. I think it's unlikely we will do that. The way the team was set up this season, I don't think other players would get more goals next season to compensate for the missing Griffiths goals. Therefore, to improve our overall performance, we'll have to change tactics, strategy etc. I think that's fairly obvious in my humble opinion, but we then get into the realms of how you plan the reorganisation of your team.

Stevie said that "questioning how well we will fair without Griffiths in the future is perfectly valid - guessing how we would have done without him retrospectively has absolutely no value whatsoever". I think they are, near enough, the same thing.

SMAXXA
03-06-2013, 05:25 PM
That's reassuring. :greengrin

To be honest, I can accept myself that the discussion has done of on a bit of a tangent. To attempt to summarise:

I think Stevie and I are disagreeing about whether there is any validity in imagining how your team would have played without it's key player.

My point is, if we play next season without Griffiths, we'll achieve less than we did this season unless we can replace him with someone who will score as many goals or more. I think it's unlikely we will do that. The way the team was set up this season, I don't think other players would get more goals next season to compensate for the missing Griffiths goals. Therefore, to improve our overall performance, we'll have to change tactics, strategy etc. I think that's fairly obvious in my humble opinion, but we then get into the realms of how you plan the reorganisation of your team.

Stevie said that "questioning how well we will fair without Griffiths in the future is perfectly valid - guessing how we would have done without him retrospectively has absolutely no value whatsoever". I think they are, near enough, the same thing.

I would agree its unlikely we will be able to replace him if he doesn't sign, I would however hope we would spread the goals around the team a lot more than we have this season and in recent seasons. Imagine if we could get say 10 goals a season from a midfielder and in the same region from your wingers, that would definitely take the pressure of signing someone as reliant as we were on Leigh. That's the balance Pat will need to get with his other signings not just forwards. FWIW I hope whoever we do sign as a forward if Leigh isn't going to be here, we don't expect the same goals as we have been used to from Leigh.

Future17
04-06-2013, 12:22 PM
I would agree its unlikely we will be able to replace him if he doesn't sign, I would however hope we would spread the goals around the team a lot more than we have this season and in recent seasons. Imagine if we could get say 10 goals a season from a midfielder and in the same region from your wingers, that would definitely take the pressure of signing someone as reliant as we were on Leigh. That's the balance Pat will need to get with his other signings not just forwards. FWIW I hope whoever we do sign as a forward if Leigh isn't going to be here, we don't expect the same goals as we have been used to from Leigh.

I agree, but you have to play with wingers to get goals from them. We need to play in a way that maximises our goal threat, whether that is from a supremely talented individual striker, or 5 or 6 players chipping in with goals from various attacking positions.

RIP
06-06-2013, 06:55 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?

bingo70
06-06-2013, 07:00 AM
We started to play that way when our wingers stopped performing, when we got a decent winger again we were able to play better football.

Pat can only piss with the cock he's got.

Golden Bear
06-06-2013, 07:01 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?

I'm with you on this one Gogs but be prepared to be slaughtered by Fenlon's faithful followers.

It's all on the grounds of steady progress don't you know.

bingo70
06-06-2013, 07:05 AM
I'm with you on this one Gogs but be prepared to be slaughtered by Fenlon's faithful followers.

It's all on the grounds of steady progress don't you know.

Do you not think its reasonable to judge a manager on progress?

MB62
06-06-2013, 07:08 AM
We started to play that way when our wingers stopped performing, when we got a decent winger again we were able to play better football.

Pat can only piss with the cock he's got.

He had the cock, just didn't know it.

Half time in the semi-final was a '5h1t or burst' situation for Pat. He had nothing to lose at 3-0 down as he was probably about to find himself unemployed, so he threw caution to the wind and put on some strikers to help out Leigh. Our 'cock oh the North' in the shape of Alex Harris, scored a cracker and it all changed from there on.

matty_f
06-06-2013, 07:08 AM
We started to play that way when our wingers stopped performing, when we got a decent winger again we were able to play better football.

Pat can only piss with the cock he's got.

Pretty much agree with this. Cairney's loss of form had much to do with the drop in quality in the team's attacking play.

bingo70
06-06-2013, 07:11 AM
He had the cock, just didn't know it.

Half time in the semi-final was a '5h1t or burst' situation for Pat. He had nothing to lose at 3-0 down as he was probably about to find himself unemployed, so he threw caution to the wind and put on some strikers to help out Leigh. Our 'cock oh the North' in the shape of Alex Harris, scored a cracker and it all changed from there on.

Alex Harris was on from the start in that game?

marinello59
06-06-2013, 07:11 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?

I don't care who or what brought a out the change, I am just glad it did change. It's better than picking over the scabs and wallowing in misery. The final few league matches of the season gave me genuine hope for next season, there were plenty of positives to build on.

Golden Bear
06-06-2013, 07:14 AM
Do you not think its reasonable to judge a manager on progress?

It all depends what you consider to be progress. If results are the be all and end all of everything then limited progress has been made. However football is part of the entertainment business and in that aspect, Fenlon has failed miserably. A strategy to first of all stifle the opposition rather than playing to the strengths of his own squad is not my cup of tea and never will be.

Mikey
06-06-2013, 07:16 AM
We need to change this smilie so it depicts Pat Fenlon and Hibs fans........... :yw:

bingo70
06-06-2013, 07:17 AM
It all depends what you consider to be progress. If results are the be all and end all of everything then limited progress has been made. However football is part of the entertainment business and in that aspect, Fenlon has failed miserably. A strategy to first of all stifle the opposition rather than playing to the strengths of his own squad is not my cup of tea and never will be.

If this is his long term strategy I'd agree, I'm really hoping for exiting attacking players this summer, but considering his starting point I think judging him on improved results is more reasonable imo.

Golden Bear
06-06-2013, 07:19 AM
We need to change this smilie so it depicts Pat Fenlon and Hibs fans........... :yw:

I really shouldn't bite ------------ especially at 8:20am in the morning!

Andy74
06-06-2013, 07:38 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?

Yes let's concentrate on this a bit more!

Why don't you spend some time wondering why that's why the team played like that for a spell because it wasn't how we started or ended the season.

The Leith Dutch
06-06-2013, 07:40 AM
If this is his long term strategy I'd agree, I'm really hoping for exiting attacking players this summer, but considering his starting point I think judging him on improved results is more reasonable imo.

Agree with this. When Pat Fenlon arrived we'd had the dire, dire stuff of Calderwood's reign.

His first job was keep us up.

He's now ditched the bam element in the dressing room and given us a better mentality allied to a reasonably solid base.

Next season he's got to push on and make us an attacking force.

I doubt any of us were happy with the football from the start of this year through to the end of the first half of the semi but I'd say a lot of that was down to Paul Cairney imploding.

During 2012 he was looking like the perfect signing - a tricky, skillful player with good end product (and also a bit of bite in his defensive play).

Next season we need a few attacking options to avoid the impact of one of them going off the boil.

Liam Craig I think will be a cracking player.

The defence is for me good enough as is and signing wise I think the rest of the budget this year needs to be spent on attacking players - two strikers, a winger and another attacking mid if we can possibly stretch that far.

sambajustice
06-06-2013, 07:53 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?



This is how we played in the final, albeit against a very good team.


I said on another thread, very tidy play up to just over the half way line, then no ideas and no options, a few more sideways and backwards passes which eventually found McGivern or Maybury and they would inevitably have to hoof it up to our 5'7 striker who was getting marked by 2x 6'4 centre halves. The hoof was inevitable because Celtic were very good at closing us down that day.

We just need a few more ideas going forward.


i think we need to adopt a bit more of a Celtic model, get players in with a view to selling them on in 18-24 months at a profit. Its down to the coaching after that though to develop these players in sellable assets.

AngusHibby
06-06-2013, 07:54 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHC-GBDqfw eye bleedingly bad football

J-C
06-06-2013, 08:06 AM
His main aim was to make us harder to beat, he did that to an extent but injuries to key defenders didn't help. Allowing Sproule to go was a mistake as it took away any width we had, he tried to replace him but failed ( Done ) Wotherspoon's decent start didnt last and he disappeared back into his wee shell and not getting another striker to help Griffiths was a poor decision.

Treadstone
06-06-2013, 08:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHC-GBDqfw eye bleedingly bad football

My favourite goal of the season. To bring it out in isolation is poor though, thank god the St Johnstone Monday night shocker isn't in its entirety on YouTube.

I'm behind PF although I wouldn't have said that at HT in the semi. The 4 month form catastrophe that happened between January and May can't happen again or the terrible fitba that went with it. The last three league games of the season and the young players make me feel positive.

AngusHibby
06-06-2013, 08:11 AM
My favourite goal of the season. To bring it out in isolation is poor though, thank god the St Johnstone Monday night shocker isn't in its entirety on YouTube.

I'm behind PF although I wouldn't have said that at HT in the semi. The 4 month form catastrophe that happened between January and May can't happen again or the terrible fitba that went with it. The last three league games of the season and the young players make me feel positive.

Ye admittedly it was a one off haha. Nice to know we've got the potential to score goals like that though

brydekirk
06-06-2013, 08:13 AM
Pretty much agree with this. Cairney's loss of form had much to do with the drop in quality in the team's attacking play.

Must agree, Cairney was our only route of attack, bar the long ball.

The Leith Dutch
06-06-2013, 08:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHC-GBDqfw eye bleedingly bad football

That was my goal of the season from the moment it went in :)

If we can get that Paul Cairney back (pass, move, receive ball, killer through ball) and have him do it all season I think we'd be looking very good indeed :)

AngusHibby
06-06-2013, 08:17 AM
That was my goal of the season from the moment it went in :)

If we can get that Paul Cairney back (pass, move, receive ball, killer through ball) and have him do it all season I think we'd be looking very good indeed :)

ye, lets hope he works hard in the preseason, definitely a player in there. That ball from doyle is exquisite as well

bingo70
06-06-2013, 08:22 AM
Must agree, Cairney was our only route of attack, bar the long ball.

Problem was that it wasn't just cairney that went off the boil then, it was cairney, Wotherspoon and Doyle, all roughly around the same time and that pretty much left Griffiths to do it alone so fenlon tried to find a system to accommodate that. In hindsight I'm sure mistakes were made, maybe we shouldn't have let sproule go but let's no forget how bad he was for us this season, maybe he should have introduced youngsters earlier? I'm not saying fenlon was faultless during the bad spell but I think its harsh to judge him purely on the bead spell when there are obvious signs for encouragement.

Treadstone
06-06-2013, 08:22 AM
Ye admittedly it was a one off haha. Nice to know we've got the potential to score goals like that though

:agree:

pacorosssco
06-06-2013, 08:27 AM
Is it not up to manager to motivate players also. If the players didnt turn up why wasnt it changed as quickly as possible. He done this in semi as he was staring down the barrel.

Have to agree with OP. I wish Fenlon well but the the jury is still out.

Treadstone
06-06-2013, 08:27 AM
I'm not saying fenlon was faultless during the bad spell but I think its harsh to judge him purely on the bead spell when there are obvious signs for encouragement.

I think other than his first day in the job PF starts 13-14 with his highest 'approval' rating in the job. Let's hope that is reflected in the play on the field and by results.

Eric
06-06-2013, 08:28 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?

Gogs you mention playing the Hibs Way and to me this is the crux of the matter.

The youngsters in the Acadamy from 9 to under 20 are taught to play the Hibs Way and then find themselves in the first team playing the Managers Way. The difference in the second half of the semi was that players such as young Boozy started to play the Hibs Way to great effect. With so many Acadamy graduates now in the first team the potential is there for Hibs to ensure that new signings who are brought in are those who are capable of playing the Hibs Way.

Equally it is essential that when a new manager comes in that he buys into playing the Hibs Way or finds a job elsewhere. What is the sense in teaching a style of play over a 10 year period for it to be ignored by a new manager whose tenancy may well be less than 3 years?

And playing the Hibs Way, as seen recently by the under 17s and under 20s, will surely help to swell the first team crowds.:thumbsup:

blackpoolhibs
06-06-2013, 08:36 AM
We started off the season playing some great stuff, i dont remembet anyone complaining about eye bleeding football when we were sat top of the league?

We then have a back 4 thats decimated by injuries, and Cairney and Wotherspoons form fall off the radar.

I agree the football was not the best after that, but we were a team who was nearly relegated the season before. I'd love to have a team who finished 11th one season, bring in a new set of players and play like Brazil the next one, but only an idiot would think this.

The emergence of the youngsters gave us a lift towards the end of the season, and again we start next season with a much better standard of player than the last one. This is progress.

Plus as was shown at Hampden in May, 99% of the support can see this and are behind the team. Pat has galvanised the club, something we have not seen in quite a while. :pfgwa

JimBHibees
06-06-2013, 08:39 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?

What another shocking post, you seem to have a knack of dropping a grenade when things are starting to look more positive for Hibs. You seem to have something personal against PF for some reason. Dont understand why anyone would concentrate on a spell ages ago when we have played much better much more recently.

Stevie Reid
06-06-2013, 08:40 AM
What's clear is that there are plenty of posters on here who ignore/choose to forget the many times we played attractive football this season, and simply focus on the many times we have played badly, and that saddens me greatly.

I am behind Fenlon and think he has done a very good job, but I also recognise for a long spell this season the football was very bad indeed , and the results weren't very good either. However, it is obvious that many on here will not change their opinion of Pat no matter what, which seems incredible given how bad things were before he arrived.

There has been progress in every possible way, and the good football that we have played at times this season I have enjoyed more than any Hibs team since John Collins was manager. There has been plenty of bad stuff too, but nowhere near as bad as the absolute nadir that we reached under Calderwood, where we were awful going forward and unbelievably vulnerable at the back.

I was stunned at the views of many on here as to how the players and Pat reacted to the cup final defeat, and that and some of the opinions of Fenlon on threads such as this exemplify that so many Hibs fans seem determined to always make things worse than they are - we have had plenty of horrendous times of late, why deny when things are improving?

This is the most hopeful I have felt about Hibs going forward, and the most togetherness I have felt around the club since the summer of 2007. It would be nice to enjoy it.

Treadstone
06-06-2013, 08:46 AM
Gogs you mention playing the Hibs Way and to me this is the crux of the matter.

The youngsters in the Acadamy from 9 to under 20 are taught to play the Hibs Way and then find themselves in the first team playing the Managers Way. The difference in the second half of the semi was that players such as young Boozy started to play the Hibs Way to great effect. With so many Acadamy graduates now in the first team the potential is there for Hibs to ensure that new signings who are brought in are those who are capable of playing the Hibs Way.

Equally it is essential that when a new manager comes in that he buys into playing the Hibs Way or finds a job elsewhere. What is the sense in teaching a style of play over a 10 year period for it to be ignored by a new manager whose tenancy may well be less than 3 years?

And playing the Hibs Way, as seen recently by the under 17s and under 20s, will surely help to swell the first team crowds.:thumbsup:

This.

Teams can have a 'philosophy' but it depends who you appoint.

Stevie Reid
06-06-2013, 09:04 AM
This.

Teams can have a 'philosophy' but it depends who you appoint.

To be fair, since Alex Miller, the board have tried to bring in plenty of managers since who have stated that they will play 'the Hibs way' - it just doesn't always work out that way: -

Jim Duffy
Alex McLeish
Franck Sauzee
Tony Mowbray
John Collins
Mixu Paatelainen
John Hughes

Only Williamson and Calderwood weren't trumpeted as being managers who wanted football and flair. Fenlon was appointed to overhaul a massively failing football club, and he is doing just fine for now. There has been good football along the way, as well as some not so good.

JimBHibees
06-06-2013, 09:11 AM
What's clear is that there are plenty of posters on here who ignore/choose to forget the many times we played attractive football this season, and simply focus on the many times we have played badly, and that saddens me greatly.

I am behind Fenlon and think he has done a very good job, but I also recognise for a long spell this season the football was very bad indeed , and the results weren't very good either. However, it is obvious that many on here will not change their opinion of Pat no matter what, which seems incredible given how bad things were before he arrived.

There has been progress in every possible way, and the good football that we have played at times this season I have enjoyed more than any Hibs team since John Collins was manager. There has been plenty of bad stuff too, but nowhere near as bad as the absolute nadir that we reached under Calderwood, where we were awful going forward and unbelievably vulnerable at the back.

I was stunned at the views of many on here as to how the players and Pat reacted to the cup final defeat, and that and some of the opinions of Fenlon on threads such as this exemplify that so many Hibs fans seem determined to always make things worse than they are - we have had plenty of horrendous times of late, why deny when things are improving?

This is the most hopeful I have felt about Hibs going forward, and the most togetherness I have felt around the club since the summer of 2007. It would be nice to enjoy it.

Completely agree the squad when you look even at who will definitely be here is much stronger than we had last season. We finished the season well and although the result was disappointing I thought the fans support at the end of the game was brilliant. We are getting better there is no doubt in my mind however it wont be a rapid progression there will be peaks and troughs on the way.

GlenrothesHibee
06-06-2013, 09:14 AM
Under the circumstances i think Pat has done very well. For the first time in years we have a solid base to build on. I'm a Fenlon fan, but like most people, i was having a serious re think at HT in the semi. There were factors that resulted in our slump in form and it is a hard thing to get out of but the end of the season has given me a lot to be excited about. We have to push on again next season and i think top 4 would represent a good season.

Scouse Hibee
06-06-2013, 10:02 AM
Can some one please clarify "The Hibs Way" for me? This is a serious question and not a smart erse comment before anyone asks.

RIP
06-06-2013, 10:06 AM
The question I asked was precise? What brought about a change if approach half way through the cup semi.

Hats off to the majority of posters who tackled the topic in hand

ancient hibee
06-06-2013, 10:16 AM
The players grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck.

That's past.

The one drawback about the future is the loss of a proper reserve league.As the youngsters develop they will become too old for the under age teams and will only get regular games by moving on loan and will miss out on continuing to play as a team in competetive games.Although individuals can improve when on loan the loss of"the team"is a pity.

Eric
06-06-2013, 10:22 AM
Can some one please clarify "The Hibs Way" for me? This is a serious question and not a smart erse comment before anyone asks.

To me the Hibs Way is playing football as it it taught in our Acadamy - passing where possible rather than punting and playing with an attacking formation.

The Leith Dutch
06-06-2013, 10:51 AM
To me the Hibs Way is playing football as it it taught in our Acadamy - passing where possible rather than punting and playing with an attacking formation.

The club should continue to play in a style (the Hibs Way if you like) at all levels.

At SPL level however this isn't as straightforward as having a manager committed to playing the Hibs way and just doing it.

First of all the pass not punt gameplan requires a serious work ethic from the players - it only works if the players work their erses off to give you movement which leads to space which makes the pass possible.

The players at Pat Fenlon's disposal at the end of last season generally lacked this work ethic.

I completely agree with what you say and that this is how I want to see us play (and I do get frustrated with both 1 up top formations and the huge punt forward).

What I would say that I think, at SPL level at least, this "Hibs Way" requires a solid foundation and a certain dressing room mentality to be in place first to avoid what happened to Yogi's team once other teams worked us out.

I would say that this season there definitely has to be more attacking football played on the deck.

silverhibee
06-06-2013, 11:01 AM
Was what Pat was subjecting the team and supporters to from the start of this year until just before half time in the cup semi final.

Tippy, tappy. Side to side. Then hoof! No wing play. Men behind the ball. One up, hitting on the break. Doyle and Caldwell on the bench.

This wasn't the Hibs Way and our normally loyal support was starting to drift away.

We finished the season strongly but I can't help wondering how close Pat came to his jotters.

Who/what brought about the change in approach I wonder?


Negative boring football, has to go down as one of the most boring seasons ever watching Hibs.

The semi-final forced Fenlon to make changes, 3-0 down, he had no choice but to make changes in that game, it was either make the changes or be sacked after the game, the young-uns saved him from his jotters that day.

He needs a good start to next season and has to start winning games at ER.

bingo70
06-06-2013, 11:09 AM
Negative boring football, has to go down as one of the most boring seasons ever watching Hibs.

The semi-final forced Fenlon to make changes, 3-0 down, he had no choice but to make changes in that game, it was either make the changes or be sacked after the game, the young-uns saved him from his jotters that day.

He needs a good start to next season and has to start winning games at ER.

Apart from the season before surely?

Thought it was the old heads in the changing room that gave everyone a big kick up the arse at half time and apparently did fenlons job for him? That was the story i read on here. I'd rather say it was a group effort from everyone involved and give everyone a lot of credit for turning it around rather than moaning about what might have happened had we not done what we did do, FWIW though i think it's developed into one of hibs.nets biggest myths that Fenlon would have been sacked had we not come back in that semi, progress he makes will always be judged on league positions and not in the cups so i don't think for a second Fenlon would have been sacked after that game.

Completely baffles me why people are so desperate to find fault with Fenlon rather than give him credit for what he has done.

silverhibee
06-06-2013, 11:13 AM
Yes let's concentrate on this a bit more!

Why don't you spend some time wondering why that's why the team played like that for a spell because it wasn't how we started or ended the season.


We started the season with a 0-3 defeat and finished the season with a 3-0 defeat.

Pretty Boy
06-06-2013, 11:19 AM
We started off the season playing some great stuff, i dont remembet anyone complaining about eye bleeding football when we were sat top of the league?

We then have a back 4 thats decimated by injuries, and Cairney and Wotherspoons form fall off the radar.

I agree the football was not the best after that, but we were a team who was nearly relegated the season before. I'd love to have a team who finished 11th one season, bring in a new set of players and play like Brazil the next one, but only an idiot would think this.

The emergence of the youngsters gave us a lift towards the end of the season, and again we start next season with a much better standard of player than the last one. This is progress.

Plus as was shown at Hampden in May, 99% of the support can see this and are behind the team. Pat has galvanised the club, something we have not seen in quite a while. :pfgwa

Saved me a lot of typing BH.

Agree almost 100%.

matty_f
06-06-2013, 11:20 AM
Apart from the season before surely?

Thought it was the old heads in the changing room that gave everyone a big kick up the arse at half time and apparently did fenlons job for him? That was the story i read on here. I'd rather say it was a group effort from everyone involved and give everyone a lot of credit for turning it around rather than moaning about what might have happened had we not done what we did do, FWIW though i think it's developed into one of hibs.nets biggest myths that Fenlon would have been sacked had we not come back in that semi, progress he makes will always be judged on league positions and not in the cups so i don't think for a second Fenlon would have been sacked after that game.

Completely baffles me why people are so desperate to find fault with Fenlon rather than give him credit for what he has done.

:top marks:

How anyone can suggest that last season was worse than Calderwood's time, and the latter part of Yogi's time is astonishing.

Fwiw, I give Fenlon the credit for the semi-final. Football is played over at least 90 minutes. F****** sick of folk hanging Fenlon out to dry for 45 minutes of a game that we won, having battered the opposition for 45 mins plus extra time. A game that kick started the rest of the season as the team realised what can be achieved when they put a shift in and attack.

It was our first time back at Hampden since the horror show, and everyone and their dog was waiting for us to f*** up and get knocked out by Falkirk. Fenlon and the team cod have allowed that to happen at 3-0 at half time. Instead they refused to be embarrassed, sorted themselves out and gave us a comeback I'll never forget.

They then kicked on and never lost another game til the champions beat us in the Final.

Ray_
06-06-2013, 11:34 AM
What another shocking post, you seem to have a knack of dropping a grenade when things are starting to look more positive for Hibs. You seem to have something personal against PF for some reason. Dont understand why anyone would concentrate on a spell ages ago when we have played much better much more recently.

I really think we have to see where we go from here, we did end the season in the bottom half of the league, so that spell did have consequences. Complacency is just as bad as over negativity & glimpses of form are far from having seriously turned the corner.

Yes it was a great comeback against a Falkirk team that was never in the races in the 1st division title race and we done very well in the bottom six section of the league, however, we got hammered in our last three pre-split games against the top six teams and we got a doing off Celtic in the final.

We are making progress, but it would have been very difficult to have got any worse, given our resource advantage over other SPL teams. Whether we make enough progress has still to be determined, although I remain confident that PF will be the one to take us there.

Stevie Reid
06-06-2013, 11:41 AM
I really think we have to see where we go from here, we did end the season in the bottom half of the league, so that spell did have consequences. Complacency is just as bad as over negativity & glimpses of form are far from having seriously turned the corner.

Yes it was a great comeback against a Falkirk team that was never in the races in the 1st division title race and we done very well in the bottom six section of the league, however, we got hammered in our last three pre-split games against the top six teams and we got a doing off Celtic in the final.

We are making progress, but it would have been very difficult to have got any worse, given our resource advantage over other SPL teams. Whether we make enough progress has still to be determined, although I remain confident that PF will be the one to take us there.

You make some reasonable points and I like your backing Fenlon, but a 2-1 home defeat by ICT surely cannot be considered a hammering.

Mikey
06-06-2013, 11:43 AM
Completely baffles me why people are so desperate to find fault with Fenlon rather than give him credit for what he has done.

Some folk just don't like him and won't let it go.

silverhibee
06-06-2013, 11:46 AM
Apart from the season before surely?

Thought it was the old heads in the changing room that gave everyone a big kick up the arse at half time and apparently did fenlons job for him? That was the story i read on here. I'd rather say it was a group effort from everyone involved and give everyone a lot of credit for turning it around rather than moaning about what might have happened had we not done what we did do, FWIW though i think it's developed into one of hibs.nets biggest myths that Fenlon would have been sacked had we not come back in that semi, progress he makes will always be judged on league positions and not in the cups so i don't think for a second Fenlon would have been sacked after that game.

Completely baffles me why people are so desperate to find fault with Fenlon rather than give him credit for what he has done.

Sure i read an article from Sparky saying it was Fenlon who blew his top at HT during the Falkirk game, that was the story i read in the paper.

Imo had we not come back from being 3-0 down in the semi then i think Fenlon would have been shown the door, we wouldn't have got the bouncebackability we got to the end of the season we had and that would have seen Fenlon been shown the door.

The biggest .net myth for me is "Fenlons job was to stop us being relegated last season", no chance was that the remit from our board.

silverhibee
06-06-2013, 11:50 AM
:top marks:

How anyone can suggest that last season was worse than Calderwood's time, and the latter part of Yogi's time is astonishing.

Fwiw, I give Fenlon the credit for the semi-final. Football is played over at least 90 minutes. F****** sick of folk hanging Fenlon out to dry for 45 minutes of a game that we won, having battered the opposition for 45 mins plus extra time. A game that kick started the rest of the season as the team realised what can be achieved when they put a shift in and attack.

It was our first time back at Hampden since the horror show, and everyone and their dog was waiting for us to f*** up and get knocked out by Falkirk. Fenlon and the team cod have allowed that to happen at 3-0 at half time. Instead they refused to be embarrassed, sorted themselves out and gave us a comeback I'll never forget.

They then kicked on and never lost another game til the champions beat us in the Final.

Who is suggesting this.

Stringer
06-06-2013, 11:56 AM
The Falkirk game wasn't helpful in the long run, it convinced fans that 4 4 2 will work. Griffiths doesn't drop deep and Scott Brown in the final had so much time between the strikers and our midfield. He had a good performance because he had so much time to make the pass, we badly needed a CAM to break up his play.

Next season we have to play 4 2 3 1.

Williams

Clancy. Forster. Hanlon. McGivern


Taiwo. Tudor Jones


Handling. Wotherspoon. Harris


Caldwell.



Those attackers will link up well together, they are all academy boys who are pass first.

J-C
06-06-2013, 12:01 PM
The Falkirk game wasn't helpful in the long run, it convinced fans that 4 4 2 will work. Griffiths doesn't drop deep and Scott Brown in the final had so much time between the strikers and our midfield. He had a good performance because he had so much time to make the pass, we badly needed a CAM to break up his play.

Next season we have to play 4 2 3 1.

Williams

Clancy. Forster. Hanlon. McGivern


Taiwo. Tudor Jones


Handling. Wotherspoon. Harris


Caldwell.



Those attackers will link up well together, they are all academy boys who are pass first.


And where's Craig playing, if you play that then he'll be in the whole instead of Wotherspoon ( probably not gonna be here )

J-C
06-06-2013, 12:02 PM
Can some one please clarify "The Hibs Way" for me? This is a serious question and not a smart erse comment before anyone asks.

Type in Turnbull's Tornado's into Youtube and enjoy :greengrin

silverhibee
06-06-2013, 12:04 PM
Some folk just don't like him and won't let it go.


Who are those folk that don't like him, he is the Hibs manager and while he is he gets my backing, still allowed a opinion about things on here surely, if i didn't like him i would still be sitting in my seat supporting the team, i ain't no day tripper. :aok: :greengrin

Ray_
06-06-2013, 12:05 PM
You make some reasonable points and I like your backing Fenlon, but a 2-1 home defeat by ICT surely cannot be considered a hammering.

Alright, not that it makes much difference, have it your way, we were hammered twice by top six teams and had a poor home defeat by ICT. Now please don't tell me that Hibs getting beat at home by ICT is anything but poor.

allezsauzee
06-06-2013, 12:06 PM
How come when the players play badly it's Fenlon's fault and when they play well they are good players? We were on a downward trajectory from 2009 up until Pat took over and we have seen slow but steady improvement since then. I just can't fathom out why there are so many people who are desperate to have a go at him.

JimBHibees
06-06-2013, 12:08 PM
How come when the players play badly it's Fenlon's fault and when they play well they are good players? We were on a downward trajectory from 2009 up until Pat took over and we have seen slow but steady improvement since then. I just can't fathom out why there are so many people who are desperate to have a go at him.

Completely agree. Give him a proper chance.

Stevie Reid
06-06-2013, 12:13 PM
Alright, not that it makes much difference, have it your way, we were hammered twice by top six teams and had a poor home defeat by ICT. Now please don't tell me that Hibs getting beat at home by ICT is anything but poor.

It's anything but uncommon, also.

Brizo
06-06-2013, 12:19 PM
The youngsters in the Acadamy from 9 to under 20 are taught to play the Hibs Way.And playing the Hibs Way, as seen recently by the under 17s and under 20s, will surely help to swell the first team crowds.:thumbsup:

If thats the case and im taking it you have some knowledge of how the Acad runs then our club having a consistent playing strategy throughout all the age groups is the best news ive heard for a while :thumbsup:

I take it by the Hibs Way you mean the Hibs way of McCartney, Turnbull and Mowbray.... not the Hibs way of Auld,Williamson and Calderwood :greengrin

As others have said that strategy has to continue into the first team or whats gone before has no tangible final outcome. If PF or any other manager buys into that great. The problem comes when either the players cant match that philosophy (imo one of Yogis problems) or when technically gifted players are injured ir lose form (which happened to PF for part of this season). And of course if the Hibs Way isnt accompanied by results how many fans would accept attacking entertaining fitba and relegation?

I believe PFs coat was on the shoogly nail at 1/2 time in the semi and Rodders probably had his P45 written out. But I also think he deserves another season to see if the improvement in the league position can continue. M/well, RC, ICT and St J have all shown what can be done with far less resources than us... and im guessing the Board will be judging him against their successes in the season just ended.

The Leith Dutch
06-06-2013, 12:35 PM
The Falkirk game wasn't helpful in the long run, it convinced fans that 4 4 2 will work. Griffiths doesn't drop deep and Scott Brown in the final had so much time between the strikers and our midfield. He had a good performance because he had so much time to make the pass, we badly needed a CAM to break up his play.

Next season we have to play 4 2 3 1.

Williams

Clancy. Forster. Hanlon. McGivern

Taiwo. Tudor Jones

Handling. Wotherspoon. Harris

Caldwell.

Those attackers will link up well together, they are all academy boys who are pass first.

Wotherspoon as a CAM is something I would like to see tried but I doubt very much he'd have done anything to stop Brown playing in the final.
I have some time for DW but defensively he doesn't offer anything in my opinion.

Not sure it would have made much of a difference but I'd have detailed Jorge Claros to follow Brown all over the pitch harassing him and generally being in his face.

Formation wise a 4-2-3-1 is a decent formation (not sure Caldwell is ready to lead the line and Craig definitely needs to be in there) and I'd be happy to see us play that way at least some of the time. What I would say is that we need to be able to handle at least a couple of different formations as I'm fed up of the opposition teams working us out any time we do look good.

I like the idea of playing only one sitting midfielder - they then know it's their responsibility to clear up and break down opposition attacks and they don't leave it to the other holding mid.
I also think Tudor-Jones could do that role very well.

That would allow (assuming we have the players) a few different combinations such as 2 conventional centre mids and a front 3 with some width; a proper 4 man midfield with one up top or a slightly narrower three man midfield with 2 strikers and one of those 3 MFs with a roving brief.

Not saying we master all those but we need to play more than one different way and it would be good to see us get players who can achieve this - Liam Craig strikes me as that sort of player and if we could get Cairney back to how he was at the start of the season he's another......they're not out and out wingers but they can go wide or they can play the number 10 role. Harris looks better on the left imo but we should look to have the players to allow him to switch wings if we feel there's more for him against a dodgy opposition left back say.

Surely even SPL calibre players can handle more than one way to play?

RIP
06-06-2013, 02:29 PM
Funny how some posters are still trotting out that tired old mantra that if you seek to analyse the performance of the team or manager you have suddenly morphed into a Jambo in disguise or are seeking to undermine the team. I'm one of may supporters who have spent the past 5 years actively supporting the club - at games and between games. Because I love my club I think that gives me the right to ask questions, challenge and yes (dare I say) even critise the present incumbents as to their performance. I take those steps out of wanting the very best for Hibs.

I think there has been board pressure on Pat in recent months to play youth and make the football more adventurous. I think he was resistant to that pressure until 0-3 against Falkirk. If that game had ended up 0-4 or 0-5, I think he would have resigned - let alone been given his jotters. However to suggest that in analysing this switch, that I are others have an anti-Fenlon agenda is as simplistic as it is infantile. I assume none of these critics saw my previous post?

Pat's first full season
• Fifty-One points
• Closest margin to top in 12 seasons
• SPL loss ratio 34% - Best equal in our last 12 seasons
• Seventh place
• Started brightly, no danger of relegation during season
• Scottish Cup Final 2 years in a row
• Unbeaten against Hearts
• Manager building for the future
• Bit more stability in squad
• Better keeper, more dig in midfield, better mix of tactics than before
• Young players coming through
• Strong connection between players, manager and supporters


Previous seasons
• Thirty something points last 2 seasons
• Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
• SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
• Tenth/Eleventh place
• Flirting with relegation
• Previous Scottish Cup Final 2001
• Poor record against Hearts
• Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
• Journeymen passing through
• Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
• No youth development
• Disconnect between players, manager and supporters


Lots of areas for improvement, but not a bad effort I'm sure you would agree