Pat Fenlon.

[blackpoolhibs]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

[erskine-hibby]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

Maybe because even a half fit Griffiths is more of a threat than anyone else we had in our team?

[Speedway]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

- Because he didn't think his other options had any more chance of scoring.

- That Doyle up front on his own would have actually been the same as playing with 10 men.

- He's getting a easy ride due to the fan's application of Einstein's first theory of relativity.

[pontius pilate]

Again it's all IF's Buts and Maybes.
If sparky wasn't fit (plain for all to see) why start him ad bit use him as a sub.
I think he should've come off at half time bring Caldwell on earlier and let him run and Harry the Celtic back line and you just never know.
It's in the past now we can't change that but we can look to the future with good optimism I'd say.

[lord bunberry]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?
In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

I can only imagine he was kept on for his ability to produce something from nothing, but in the end he produced nothing. If he was injured he should have been taken off much earlier I can see why fenlon took the chance but it didn't pay off and contributed to another hugely disappointing display at hampden

[LeithBoozy]

Maybe because even a half fit Griffiths is more of a threat than anyone else we had in our team?

It didn't work-out that way for James McPake and he is our captain ?

[blackpoolhibs]

I can only imagine he was kept on for his ability to produce something from nothing, but in the end he produced nothing. If he was injured he should have been taken off much earlier I can see why fenlon took the chance but it didn't pay off and contributed to another hugely disappointing display at hampden

Hugely in my opinion, Fenlon said before in an interview he was to blame last season in part because of his preparation, tactics and team selection. Well Pat, add this to the bloody list too. :rolleyes:

[Danderhall Hibs]

I'd have left Griffiths on as well, I'd have brought Caldwell on at HT (for.Doyle) and gone with the team from the derby. That would've meant Griffiths didn't need to run as much and allow him to pick up a scrap.

I think we should stick with him but Fenlon's getting an easy ride - mainly because of this "feel good factor" I've been reading about?

[Keith_M]

I admit to being confused by the Griffiths injury situation. A rumour leaked out that he was injured and the club almost immediately denied it via Twitter, as did a number of people on here.


So, was he or was he not injured? :confused:

[blackpoolhibs]

Agreed in the main BH but I'd have left Griffiths on as well, I'd have brought Caldwell on at HT (for.Doyle) and gone with the team from the derby. That would've meant Griffiths didn't need to run as much and allow him to pick up a scrap.

I think we should stick with him but Fenlon's getting an easy ride - mainly because of this "feel good factor" I've been reading about?

I cant see any reason to keep an injured player on, especially one as injured as i feel he clearly was? Teams defend from the front, and no team in the SPL should play against Celtic with 10 men, its suicide.

[blackpoolhibs]

I admit to being confused by the Griffiths injury situation. A rumour leaked out that he was injured and the club almost immediately denied it via Twitter, as did a number of people on here.


So, was he or was he not injured? :confused:

You did not watch the match then?:confused:

[Danderhall Hibs]

I admit to being confused by the Griffiths injury situation. A rumour leaked out that he was injured and the club almost immediately denied it via Twitter, as did a number of people on here.


So, was he or was he not injured? :confused:

It looked fairly obvious that he was injured. Not sure why the club broke with their rules and commented on the speculation?

[Brightside]

I cant see any reason to keep an injured player on, especially one as injured as i feel he clearly was? Teams defend from the front, and no team in the SPL should play against Celtic with 10 men, its suicide.

I totally agree about Leigh. When he went down early on you knew it was game over for him. He was a statue for most of the game and spent longer throwing himself to the ground than attacking the defenders. I do think Fenlon lacks a bit of bottle when it comes to the big qns. McGivern should never have played ahead of Lewis. Lewis is very simply a better LB than McGivern, and in my view that decision cost us the game. Leigh should have been off after 30 mins, Lewis should have started, and Handling should have been on instead of Doyle. But there you go... onwards. Next season we will see some more real Stars coming in from the production line.

[Just_Jimmy]

Its our typical luck in that stupid cup. Griffiths goes the whole season scoring most weeks, he plays in 4 games no one wants him to play in at the end of season for fear of injury, coming through unscathed.

He gets a knock that ruins our and his final chances on the friday before the final, in training.

Cursed.

[Keith_M]

You did not watch the match then?:confused:


My point was more the confused signals coming out of the club. I don't understand why they denied his injury if he actually was injured.


FWIW, I agree with the point you were making. If it was known beforehand, or became evident so early, he should have been replaced. I would have had no hesitation trying a front pairing that included Caldwell and telling him to go for it.

[Benny Brazil]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

I agree BH - I would have kept him on the bench put Caldwell in from the start and then he could have been brought on with 20/30 mins to go - he was clearly not fit and not able to run about as freely as he would normally do. Apart from being our main (some will say only) goal threat maybe Pat thought that not starting with Leigh would give Celtc too much of a boost not that it mattered in the end.
Pat made some other decisions which in hindsight didnt work out - Thommo at left mid, Harris on the right to name another two plus McGivern at full back.

That said I do see improvement and I do think he is taking us in the right direction - it's frustrating that in the big game again he's made some poor decisions

[erskine-hibby]

It didn't work-out that way for James McPake and he is our captain ?

McPake isn't a game changer though, Griffiths is.

[dangermouse]

Injuries or no injuries no matter what team or formation Fenlon picked Celtic would have won. The never got out of second gear, Scott Brown bossed the midfield even when both Claros and Taiwo were snapping at his heels. Poor defending let Celtic in early on and it was always going to be an uphill struggle from there on. Collum the clown didn't help but at least he wasn't as culpable as Thompson last year.

The team effort was so much better than last year and that was evident by our fans out singing TGFITW at full time despite having lost.

There's always next year although I'm running out of next years.

[Devilstorment]

It didn't work-out that way for James McPake and he is our captain ?


captain doesnt equal best player. James' form had also been poor in the run up

[trev the hat]

If Sparky had started on the bench & the same scoreline this place would be in uproar. He picked a team he thought could win the trophy, the same 11 I would have chosen beforehand. It was our defence which could have been better on the day.

[Mikey]

I guess the options are to kick the cat or regroup for next season and push for the same level of improvement or better. I think most are doing the latter.

[Devilstorment]

It was a cup final against the best side in Scotland.

Imagine the outcry on here if Leigh hadn't started because he had a niggling injury. Caldwell, will be a good player but playing against experienced CH's in a cup final is a different kettle of fish than what he is used to, yes he has to get experience (which he did) but a cup final is about winning one game, you have to play with your best side.

Pat would have been mad not to at least give Leigh a shot, yes he was carrying an injury but as someone said he can produce something out of nothing. I think Pat would have been hoping for that and would then have taken him off... With the events of the Semi in mind clearly the hope stayed with him for 85 minutes.

Pat has to make these tough calls, to judge him with the benefit of hindsight is all well and good (and something that we on .net are masters of!!), but to me it becomes just one of these things that we have been unlucky about, only Hibs could lose there talisman striker the best they have had in an age 24 hours before the final

[greenlex]

We never got one free kick anywhere near their box. A half fit Sparky could have made the difference had that not been the case.

[hibee62]

Did he not get injured in the game? In the first half Celtc made no secret of their defensive tactics: kick Griffiths. Add to that he seemed to roll his ankle in one challenge and it was job done for them. Bear in mind he was heavily involved in the build up to THE chance and rounded the keeper himself during the first half.

Fenlon went for it, and we played ok from middle to front in the first 25 minutes but were let down in defence. He changed it as the way the defence was playing we could have been more down at half time, obviously wanted to stem the flow. I am disappointed he didn't go for it in the second half, but maybe Celtc were just professional in their approach, they allowed us the ball where it didn't matter...

[LeithBoozy]

captain doesnt equal best player. James' form had also been poor in the run up

You are right of course, still who's to say he would not have played a stormer. If you don't concede soft goals you are in with more of a chance.

[Danderhall Hibs]

You are right of course, still who's to say he would not have played a stormer. If you don't concede soft goals you are in with more of a chance.

He might've got a head on one of those 2 crosses in the 1st half.

Hanlon and McGivern were lost under them.

[Devilstorment]

You are right of course, still who's to say he would not have played a stormer. If you don't concede soft goals you are in with more of a chance.


yeah thats a fair shout, I guess it comes down to the degrees of injury. Maybe James was a bit more realistic with his injuries and Leigh was that keen to play that he played when he shouldnt have?

[SlickShoes]

I cant see any reason to keep an injured player on, especially one as injured as i feel he clearly was? Teams defend from the front, and no team in the SPL should play against Celtic with 10 men, its suicide.

He was probably kept on because if we managed to get a free kick within 40 yds of the goals he could probably score it.

The biggest mistake for me was starting Doyle and McGivern, both had terrible games.

[matty_f]

I think Fenlon played Sparky for the same reason McLeish played Sauzee.

[stormchild]

I totally agree about Leigh. When he went down early on you knew it was game over for him. He was a statue for most of the game and spent longer throwing himself to the ground than attacking the defenders. I do think Fenlon lacks a bit of bottle when it comes to the big qns. McGivern should never have played ahead of Lewis. Lewis is very simply a better LB than McGivern, and in my view that decision cost us the game. Leigh should have been off after 30 mins, Lewis should have started, and Handling should have been on instead of Doyle. But there you go... onwards. Next season we will see some more real Stars coming in from the production line.
I thought it was only me who thought like this. Don't rate McGivern at left back, some are saying centre half but he loses more headers than he wins. He is so out of position most times he is a liability.

[Sergio sledge]

He might've got a head on one of those 2 crosses in the 1st half.

Hanlon and McGivern were lost under them.

He wouldn't, it was on Hanlon and McGiverns side, and would have been on their side if he had been playing.

[Captain Trips]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

As good as Leigh is he wasn't himself on Sunday and if a gamble was taken I understand, what I do not is after watching him for 20-30 I would say it hasn't paid off so sub time. PF should have subbed him and or LG should have put his hands up.

[Andy74]

BH - you've said before on the Riordan threads that football is about playing people with ability and it doesn't really matter if they run about too much. Well, I think Pat was agreeing that having a guy like him around that can produce something was worth keeping him on for. I'm sure the staff know better than we do the extent of his injury and the part that played or didn't play in how well he performed.

[Brightside]

He wouldn't, it was on Hanlon and McGiverns side, and would have been on their side if he had been playing.

Both of the crosses were delivered to the position that the LB should be covering when the cross comes over from the attacking left side. McGivern got that wrong for both crosses (Hanlon tried to cover - but to be clear the LCH should not be covering the back post for those crosses), and was also miles out of position for the 3rd goal.

[IWasThere2016]

I guess the options are to kick the cat or regroup for next season and push for the same level of improvement or better. I think most are doing the latter.

:agree: Take it on the chin and move on.

A fit Leigh might have made it tighter - but we gifted them goals and to win we'd have needed 3 or 4 .. that was not gonna happen IMHO.

[The Sea-gull]

Posted this on 14th May regarding Fenlon. Stand by every word:-

Although we have 2 games still to play and could end up 7th compared to 9th as we are at the moment, I think we can just about evaluate PF's first full season in charge. I'm going to ignore the cup final slightly because if he wins it he will be a club legend forever but the league always gives a better idea of where you are at as a club.

When he joined us in Nov 2011 we were a shambles and very much in a relegation fight. Even at that point I said that the minimum criteria for him was for us to stay up and if he achieved that , no matter how he did it, then he should keep his job and be given time to get on with it without too much criticism. He did achieve albeit not particularly convincingly but he achieved it nonetheless and I felt he deserved to keep his job into this season.

At the start of this season, with recognition that he had a tough job to do and it would be difficult (but not impossible) to turn relegation fodder into Euro challengers in just a season, I felt the minimum progress for him to keep his job for next season was to at least have us challenging to get in the top 6 this season and well clear of a relegation battle. He achieved that, again in the most minimal of ways but we were in contention for the top 6 until the last game before the split.

The first third of the season or so was good and we looked good. The last two thirds, barring one or two results mainly in the cup, has been dissappointing. He takes credit for a good run at the start of the season, isolated results like the cup wins over Hearts, Aberdeen, Killie and the second half v Falkirk as well as league wins over Celtic and Hearts. He must take criticism for the long runs of poor form, the fact that we haven't beaten Ross County (indeed lost all three) or ICT all season, result and performance when on a good run at Dundee (the beginning of the end for our league run IMHO) and the disaster that was the first half v Falkirk. Had we not come back v Falkirk I think his posistion would have been more or less untenable coupled with the long poor run we were on at that time. Even his biggest supporters were finding it difficult to defend him at half time in that game.

I give him huge credit for Sunday's derby win as it was a great performance but he will only truly convince me when we become a bit more conisistent. Since mid-November we have played 22 league games and won only 4. Only one of those wins has come at ER. 10 of those 22 games have ended in defeat. Perhaps PF has been a bit unlucky in that he had a really good run at the start of the season and has then gone on a really poor run. Had the results been a bit more spread, expectations would not have risen so high and criticism would not have been so strong.

My own verdict on PF following 18 months in the job - achieving the bare minimum in terms of acceptability. Has done enough to convince me he is the man for next season but has not yet done enough to convince me he is the man for the long haul. Still evaluating him continuously at the moment.

Expectations for him for next season - top 6 is a must otherwise will seriously start to doubt him. Anyone managing Hibs properly should be getting top six 2.5 years into his job in a league with a financially stricken Hearts and no Rangers. If he gets us in top 6 then he keeps his job. If he doesn't then his position should be up for serious evaluation.

I would now add that he deserves credit for a strong finish to the season where other Hibs teams have limped over the line with some woeful performaces and results.

On the cup final, credit for putting out a team who put in good effort and it was always going to be a big ask. I was critical of his line up ahead of kick off and not saying my line up would have won us the game but I still belive he picked the wrong team and formation for this particular game. We don't have a perfect squad but you make the best of what you have got and not shoe-horn people in.

IMHO we would have been better going with a 4-5-1 with Wotherspoon and Harris on the wings offering a bit of creativity round hard workers, good passers and tacklers Taiwo, Claros and Thomson. He has fallen into the trap of trying to be attacking while accomodating the three central guys. Thomson has never really be a left midfielder, he could do a job there at 19 but toils there at 29. We were left on the day with Thomson being neither a central midfielder nor a left and Doyle playing as neither a striker nor a wide midfielder. Both were caught somewhere in between. Playing 4-5-1 might have helped keep it a bit tighter and would have left Doyle to come on later in the game.

He has to get over his fascination with defensive central midfielders. We only really need 2 in the squad, he has had 4 in Claros, Taiwo, Deegan and Thomson.

[Spooky]

Did he not get injured in the game? In the first half Celtc made no secret of their defensive tactics: kick Griffiths. Add to that he seemed to roll his ankle in one challenge and it was job done for them. Bear in mind he was heavily involved in the build up to THE chance and rounded the keeper himself during the first half.

Fenlon went for it, and we played ok from middle to front in the first 25 minutes but were let down in defence. He changed it as the way the defence was playing we could have been more down at half time, obviously wanted to stem the flow. I am disappointed he didn't go for it in the second half, but maybe Celtc were just professional in their approach, they allowed us the ball where it didn't matter...

Totally agree hibee62.

Thought it was pretty poor/cheap tactics from Celtic. Take out (destroy) the main threat from the start. Pathetic.

And, while I am still annoyed - how does Scott Brown get away with an elbow in the neck every time he challenges for a high ball ???

Like somebody else said, why did the ref only give us free kicks when they were in miles away from their box??

What about when 4 players blanked Harris in their box. Does obstruction not apply to Celtic???

Enough!!!!

:flag:

[JimBHibees]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

I know it is completely down to individual mistakes in losing the first goal to about 4 different errors however we really should have played 451 to start with IMO and tried to keep us in the game as long as possible. Thomson to me was wasted in Left mid whereas he would have been better in the middle with a wide player outside. Why it took an hour in someone laying a glove on Brown was ridiculous?

More than likely we wouldnt have won anyway as to me they were cruising.

The Griffiths thing was just typical with regard to Hibs and this trophy. I would question also why he was at Mussy races on Friday when he should have been resting up though damage was no doubt done at that time.

[JimBHibees]

Totally agree hibee62.

Thought it was pretty poor/cheap tactics from Celtic. Take out (destroy) the main threat from the start. Pathetic.

And, while I am still annoyed - how does Scott Brown get away with an elbow in the neck every time he challenges for a high ball ???

Like somebody else said, why did the ref only give us free kicks when they were in miles away from their box??

What about when 4 players blanked Harris in their box. Does obstruction not apply to Celtic???

Enough!!!!

:flag:

Cant remember any bad fouls on Griffiths?

[andrew70]

He has to get over his fascination with defensive central midfielders. We only really need 2 in the squad, he has had 4 in Claros, Taiwo, Deegan and Thomson.

I think he has played defensively minded centre mids because he knows our defence isn't exactly watertight. This adds or should have added further protection. Over the course of all the whole season he has, in the main, made us harder to beat. Fenlon will now build on this and look to add more of an attacking impetus from next season IMO.

[J-C]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

Griffiths should've been on the bench with Caldwell a starter, allowing Griffiths to come on the last 20-30 mins.
He again got it tactically all wrong, forget the fact we looked ok first 15 mins, that was probably just adrenalin, playing Thomson on the left wing was a disgrace, a player of his calibre totally wasted for most of the game stuck out there :confused:
Playing Doyle as a starter was shocking, if the guy wasn't good enough to get a new deal, he should never be good enough to start in a cup final.
Harris is a left sided player ( right footed yes ) but was played on the right ??
We had no penetration from anywhere, until Harris moved to the left and Doyle came off, you can only play 4-4-2 against Celtic if you have the personnel to do it, we don't and should never play that system against them. 4-5-1 is what we should've went with, it was obvious Ludwig was getting too much space down the left and Stevenson should've started to counteract his threat.

Again a tactical disaster by Fenlon, his post match interview says it all, well done, hard working etc etc never a mention to the fact they played poorly yet again on the big occasion, the season in itself was fairly poor considering the start we had, too many hanger on players like Deegan, Kuqi, Kujabi etc. For me the jury is still well and truly out and hearing the players we're being linked with doesn't sound encouraging, Tudor-Jones (average) Toshney ( pretty poor in a poor Dundee team )

[Danderhall Hibs]

He wouldn't, it was on Hanlon and McGiverns side, and would have been on their side if he had been playing.

Aye but I'm sure I've read folk on here complaining about him being out of position a lot. So....

[Hibs7]

It would not have mattered one bit, when 2 of our defenders twice up against 1 Celtic player ... 1 either side of him and he still scores .. Plus a keeper who really needs to learn when and when not to come for a ball ... Until we sort out these basic defensive mistakes we will win nothing ... Glaring schoolboy errors !!

[Teapot]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

I can understand why he started him but he really should have been off at half time or even before that. I can only imagine he kept him on for his set piece ability and maybe on the slim hope that he could do something special. But he would've been slated for taking him off so early so maybe that's why he kept him on?

I was trying to remember the last time Leigh was injured before this game? Maybe when he came off against hearts in december, 6 months ago? Our bad luck is genuinely incredible in this cup.

[Spooky]

Cant remember any bad fouls on Griffiths?

Definitely two......one just outside their box and only a few minutes into play.....they just ran through him.

And a bit later, when he was taken out....he put his hand up asking the ref why nothing!!

[RIP]

Pat's first full season

Fifty-One points
Closest margin to top in 12 seasons
SPL loss ratio 34% - Best equal in our last 12 seasons
Seventh place
Started brightly, no danger of relegation during season
Scottish Cup Final 2 years in a row
Unbeaten against Hearts
Manager building for the future
Bit more stability in squad
Better keeper, more dig in midfield, better mix of tactics than before
Young players coming through
Strong connection between players, manager and supporters


Previous seasons

Thirty something points last 2 seasons
Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
Tenth/Eleventh place
Flirting with relegation
Previous Scottish Cup Final 2001
Poor record against Hearts
Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
Journeymen passing through
Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
No youth development
Disconnect between players, manager and supporters


Lots of areas for improvement, but not a bad effort I'm sure you would agree Gary

[Devilstorment]

Griffiths should've been on the bench with Caldwell a starter, allowing Griffiths to come on the last 20-30 mins.
He again got it tactically all wrong, forget the fact we looked ok first 15 mins, that was probably just adrenalin, playing Thomson on the left wing was a disgrace, a player of his calibre totally wasted for most of the game stuck out there :confused:
Playing Doyle as a starter was shocking, if the guy wasn't good enough to get a new deal, he should never be good enough to start in a cup final.
Harris is a left sided player ( right footed yes ) but was played on the right ??
We had no penetration from anywhere, until Harris moved to the left and Doyle came off, you can only play 4-4-2 against Celtic if you have the personnel to do it, we don't and should never play that system against them. 4-5-1 is what we should've went with, it was obvious Ludwig was getting too much space down the left and Stevenson should've started to counteract his threat.

Again a tactical disaster by Fenlon, his post match interview says it all, well done, hard working etc etc never a mention to the fact they played poorly yet again on the big occasion, the season in itself was fairly poor considering the start we had, too many hanger on players like Deegan, Kuqi, Kujabi etc. For me the jury is still well and truly out and hearing the players we're being linked with doesn't sound encouraging, Tudor-Jones (average) Toshney ( pretty poor in a poor Dundee team )


I respectfully disagree, the only acceptable reason for Leigh not playing for 80% of Hibs fans would have been if his leg was hanging off. Fenlon would have taken twice the stick for not starting him and we had been beaten. Ross is a good player but not at a level yet that he would be able to change the game against Celtic. In a nut shell we had no other options that would be effective.

If Leigh wasn't fit (enough) to play then I would portion a fair amount of the "blame" on Leigh's shoulders - McPake was mature enough to say he was out, does Leigh lack this maturity??


a 4-5-1 with Ross as the sole striker - Sorry but that would never have worked.

Agree with you that Lewis should have started - Be it in Midfield or at LB, not sure why Fenlon doesnt rate him.

Deegan has done us a job when called upon. Kuqi has apparently been really good for Caldwell's development according to Ross, he has learnt a lot off him. I will give you Kujabi but I think that is more a case of no one wants him and Kujabi will be happy sitting taking a wage.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Cant remember any bad fouls on Griffiths?


mulgrew kneed sparky in the back of his leg(yep, around the calf area) in one challenge that i mentioned at the time, that's the one where sparky was lying down on the pitch and holding his leg(iirc)

[greenlex]

Griffiths should've been on the bench with Caldwell a starter, allowing Griffiths to come on the last 20-30 mins.
He again got it tactically all wrong, forget the fact we looked ok first 15 mins, that was probably just adrenalin, playing Thomson on the left wing was a disgrace, a player of his calibre totally wasted for most of the game stuck out there :confused:
Playing Doyle as a starter was shocking, if the guy wasn't good enough to get a new deal, he should never be good enough to start in a cup final.
Harris is a left sided player ( right footed yes ) but was played on the right ??
We had no penetration from anywhere, until Harris moved to the left and Doyle came off, you can only play 4-4-2 against Celtic if you have the personnel to do it, we don't and should never play that system against them. 4-5-1 is what we should've went with, it was obvious Ludwig was getting too much space down the left and Stevenson should've started to counteract his threat.

Again a tactical disaster by Fenlon, his post match interview says it all, well done, hard working etc etc never a mention to the fact they played poorly yet again on the big occasion, the season in itself was fairly poor considering the start we had, too many hanger on players like Deegan, Kuqi, Kujabi etc. For me the jury is still well and truly out and hearing the players we're being linked with doesn't sound encouraging, Tudor-Jones (average) Toshney ( pretty poor in a poor Dundee team )

Disagree. Griffiths didnt cost us the first two soft goals we lost. Had we got a free kick in range then a half fit Griffiths was more likely to score than anyone else on the park. Nothing wrong with the tactics IMO. Had we not lost the early goal it might have been different.
Agree Thomson was a mistake. Bench at best for him. Taiwo Claros and Thomson isnt the answer against anyone. Two out of the three and Taiwo and Claros would get the nod. Stevenson should have played left mid.
Harris on the right was to counter izaguirie and also put him under pressure as he isnt great at defending. Stevenson could have been doing the same on the left. Doyle cannae tackle a fish supper.(he was offered a deal by the way but chose to go to Chesterfield)
I reckon tactics were about right but the personnel changes should have come straight after their second goal. I would have had Thomson off for Stevenson and Doyle off for Caldwell. 442 could have worked against a Celtic defence that isnt great had we not conceded so early.

[Onion]

Fenlon has bought himself a little time by taking us to consecutive SCFs and his record in derby matches since Last May. He deserves at least the summer to continue the rebuild process at Hibs, but needs to be backed by our terrible Board. To survive, the quality of the football has to improve, we need to start winning the games we'd expect to win, and he needs to get the squad onto a more permanent stable footing (ie less reliant on loans and short term deals).

[Islington Hibs]

Pat's first full season

Fifty-One points
Closest margin to top in 12 seasons
SPL loss ratio 34% - Best equal in our last 12 seasons
Seventh place
Started brightly, no danger of relegation during season
Scottish Cup Final 2 years in a row
Unbeaten against Hearts
Manager building for the future
Bit more stability in squad
Better keeper, more dig in midfield, better mix of tactics than before
Young players coming through
Strong connection between players, manager and supporters


Previous seasons

Thirty something points last 2 seasons
Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
Tenth/Eleventh place
Flirting with relegation
Previous Scottish Cup Final 2001
Poor record against Hearts
Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
Journeymen passing through
Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
No youth development
Disconnect between players, manager and supporters


Lots of areas for improvement, but not a bad effort I'm sure you would agree Gary

well said Gogs43- things are moving strongly in the right direction. I simply cannot understand why there is so much negativity towards Fenlon from some quarters- all I can assume it is because of That cup final which to be honest was a miracle we were in in the first place. Sure there is a long way to go but to my mind we are not only moving in the right direction have possibly our strongest base for a number of years. We have tried a new manager each year. It does not work. I trust Pat to build a strong team over time and judging by the response of the Hibs crowd, when 3-o down, so do the vast majority of the support.

[The Sea-gull]

Griffiths should've been on the bench with Caldwell a starter, allowing Griffiths to come on the last 20-30 mins.
He again got it tactically all wrong, forget the fact we looked ok first 15 mins, that was probably just adrenalin, playing Thomson on the left wing was a disgrace, a player of his calibre totally wasted for most of the game stuck out there :confused:
Playing Doyle as a starter was shocking, if the guy wasn't good enough to get a new deal, he should never be good enough to start in a cup final.
Harris is a left sided player ( right footed yes ) but was played on the right ??
We had no penetration from anywhere, until Harris moved to the left and Doyle came off, you can only play 4-4-2 against Celtic if you have the personnel to do it, we don't and should never play that system against them. 4-5-1 is what we should've went with, it was obvious Ludwig was getting too much space down the left and Stevenson should've started to counteract his threat.

Again a tactical disaster by Fenlon, his post match interview says it all, well done, hard working etc etc never a mention to the fact they played poorly yet again on the big occasion, the season in itself was fairly poor considering the start we had, too many hanger on players like Deegan, Kuqi, Kujabi etc. For me the jury is still well and truly out and hearing the players we're being linked with doesn't sound encouraging, Tudor-Jones (average) Toshney ( pretty poor in a poor Dundee team )

I heard Doyle was offered a new deal but it was a contract extension to his existing deal, not on increased terms. Doyle felt he had done enough to merit a rise, PF either felt he hadn't or wasn't in a position to offer him anything better. Doyle said he was going to wait and see if he got offered anything better. He obviously got what he felt was a better offer hence his parting. Appears it was all amicable though.

[Onion]

well said Gogs43- things are moving strongly in the right direction. I simply cannot understand why there is so much negativity towards Fenlon from some quarters- all I can assume it is because of That cup final which to be honest was a miracle we were in in the first place. Sure there is a long way to go but to my mind we are not only moving in the right direction have possibly our strongest base for a number of years. We have tried a new manager each year. It does not work. I trust Pat to build a strong team over time and judging by the response of the Hibs crowd, when 3-o down, so do the vast majority of the support.

Oh dear god, from feel good factor to us aspiring to be among the best fans in Europe, that once-in-a-lifetime crowd reaction at Hampden is going to get brought up as evidence of life on other planets next.

[greenlex]

Oh dear god, from feel good factor to us aspiring to be among the best fans in Europe, that once-in-a-lifetime crowd reaction at Hampden is going to get brought up as evidence of life on other planets next.
Extremely Harsh at no point did he suggest we aspired to be the best fans in europe. Really dont see your point.

[Devilstorment]

Griffiths should've been on the bench with Caldwell a starter, allowing Griffiths to come on the last 20-30 mins.
He again got it tactically all wrong, forget the fact we looked ok first 15 mins, that was probably just adrenalin, playing Thomson on the left wing was a disgrace, a player of his calibre totally wasted for most of the game stuck out there :confused:
Playing Doyle as a starter was shocking, if the guy wasn't good enough to get a new deal, he should never be good enough to start in a cup final.
Harris is a left sided player ( right footed yes ) but was played on the right ??
We had no penetration from anywhere, until Harris moved to the left and Doyle came off, you can only play 4-4-2 against Celtic if you have the personnel to do it, we don't and should never play that system against them. 4-5-1 is what we should've went with, it was obvious Ludwig was getting too much space down the left and Stevenson should've started to counteract his threat.

Again a tactical disaster by Fenlon, his post match interview says it all, well done, hard working etc etc never a mention to the fact they played poorly yet again on the big occasion, the season in itself was fairly poor considering the start we had, too many hanger on players like Deegan, Kuqi, Kujabi etc. For me the jury is still well and truly out and hearing the players we're being linked with doesn't sound encouraging, Tudor-Jones (average) Toshney ( pretty poor in a poor Dundee team )


I respectfully disagree, the only acceptable reason for Leigh not playing for 80% of Hibs fans would have been if his leg was hanging off. Fenlon would have taken twice the stick for not starting him and we had been beaten. Ross is a good player but not at a level yet that he would be able to change the game against Celtic. In a nut shell we had no other options that would be effective.

If Leigh wasn't fit (enough) to play then I would portion a fair amount of the "blame" on Leigh's shoulders - McPake was mature enough to say he was out, does Leigh lack this maturity??


a 4-5-1 with Ross as the sole striker - Sorry but that would never have worked.

Agree with you that Lewis should have started - Be it in Midfield or at LB, not sure why Fenlon doesnt rate him.

Deegan has done us a job when called upon. Kuqi has apparently been really good for Caldwell's development according to Ross, he has learnt a lot off him. I will give you Kujabi but I think that is more a case of no one wants him and Kujabi will be happy sitting taking a wage.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its hard to tell if another manager would have done any better than PF given the state of the club when he took over. I for one am prepared to see how it goes next season, but I do feel he just has to look like he is going to make the top 6 way before we get down to the last few games before the split.

We had a team this season who should have been in a position to make the top 6 with room to spare. Yes we were robbed of 5 points by two shocking decisions at Tannadice and in the derby. But we cant avoid the fact that our results against ICT ( who also had to rebuild ) and Ross County, just up from division 1 were a poor effort. Our results against Dundee were not the best either. We also underestimated a very good QOTS side in the League Cup .... which for a team like us was unforgivable.

The biggest factor in our failure to make the top 6 was our home form, which was very poor and something that PF has to sort out for next season or it will be a huge factor in him losing his job, if it does come to that.

As far as the state of our club versus the rest of the league goes:

We have the 3rd biggest crowds in the league outside of celtic and the £5 to get in Yams.
We have been in the last two SC finals which has surely boosted the coffers ... as opposed to getting bumped in the first round.
We have superb facilities and are based in one of Europe's finest cities ... surely a help in attracting players, as opposed to St Mirren etc.

Section 43:

What a great job they have done in improving the atmosphere at ER and organising card displays etc. Fantastic!

But: They continue to base themselves up in the gods in the top half of the East and to my mind that is a major mistake. In some of the smaller games they are barely noticeable and make less noise than a few hundred away fans ( sorry guys & girls .. its true ) its too late to do anything about that for next season, but IMO for the following season they should be asking Hibs to bump the family section from the FF ( where I sit ) to the North end of the East.

With the bottom deck of the FF as their base they would be more noticeable and probably louder. As far as I can see its better to have a whole self contained area in a small stand than one small section of a huge stand.

Sort of off the subject of Pat Fenlon I know :greengrin but you cant look at these things in isolation.

[Sergio sledge]

Griffiths should've been on the bench with Caldwell a starter, allowing Griffiths to come on the last 20-30 mins.I don't agree, when you have a player who is touch and go fitness wise who is also a key player then to have him on the bench and bring him on with 30 to go would be a huge risk as you run the risk of him breaking down and then you having to use another sub taking him off. Griffiths was always going to start, and if Fenlon had not started him and then we lost those two goals (which he had no involvement in) then Fenlon would have taken absolute pelters.


He again got it tactically all wrong, forget the fact we looked ok first 15 mins, that was probably just adrenalin, playing Thomson on the left wing was a disgrace, a player of his calibre totally wasted for most of the game stuck out there :confused: Thomson on he left worked against Hearts and worked well. Totally different quality of opposition though. :greengrin


Playing Doyle as a starter was shocking, if the guy wasn't good enough to get a new deal, he should never be good enough to start in a cup final.I don't know whether he was offered a new deal or not, but I agree to an extent. I think Caldwell should have started instead of Doyle if going for a 442. Perhaps Griffiths injury made Fenlon think he needed a more mobile striker upfront, or maybe he picked Doyle with the intention to switch to 451 if needed. (which you couldn't do with Caldwell and Griffiths upfront)


Harris is a left sided player ( right footed yes ) but was played on the right ?? When he was playing on the left there were a few folk on here saying he should be switched to the right. IMHO he's a winger, doesn't matter which side he's on, put him on the left and he has the ability to cut in and take a shot like in the semi-final, play him on the right and he is more likely to get to the by-line and put in a cross. He should be played against whichever full back is deemed most vulnerable, and he should be able to switch sides during the game if it isn't working out.


We had no penetration from anywhere, until Harris moved to the left and Doyle came off, you can only play 4-4-2 against Celtic if you have the personnel to do it, we don't and should never play that system against them. 4-5-1 is what we should've went with, it was obvious Ludwig was getting too much space down the left and Stevenson should've started to counteract his threat. Fenlon went for it and tried to get the first goal and it nearly worked until the defence (with the exception of Forster) decided to gift Celtic two goals. This put the original game plan totally out the window. I don't agree that we had no penetration in the game, in the first half we created 2 really good chances and a couple of half chances. When we changed to 451 after half time we held onto the ball more but lacked penetration. Would you have started Stevenson instead of McGivern or as part of midfield? I personally think that he was unlucky not to make the team, he's been on better form than McGivern so IMHO should have started at left back.


Again a tactical disaster by Fenlon, his post match interview says it all, well done, hard working etc etc never a mention to the fact they played poorly yet again on the big occasion, the season in itself was fairly poor considering the start we had, too many hanger on players like Deegan, Kuqi, Kujabi etc. For me the jury is still well and truly out and hearing the players we're being linked with doesn't sound encouraging, Tudor-Jones (average) Toshney ( pretty poor in a poor Dundee team )I don't think it was a tactical disaster, if Doyle had scored or the defence hadn't screwed up then it may well have worked out.


Aye but I'm sure I've read folk on here complaining about him being out of position a lot. So.... :aok: Forster is the only defender who doesn't shoulder any blame for the first two goals. McPake was a big loss in terms of leadership though, we needed someone like him to lift the team after the two goals went in.

[Sir David Gray]

If Griffiths had been subbed after 20 minutes, it would have deflated our whole support and although it was always an uphill task as soon as it went to 2-0 after half an hour, we always had half a chance with Leigh Griffiths on the park and even if he was only half fit, he's more of a threat than any of our other strikers.

I can't blame Fenlon for what happened on Sunday. I'm gutted that we've lost in another cup final but we lost to the best team in the country. I don't think we need to over analyse things too much.

[scuttle]

Seemed to be a 4/4/2 to start then at half time being two nil down he went 4/5/1 with Doyle playing wide right midfield and Harris being swapped to the left wing having played the whole first half on the right. This I cant fathom out,at two down in a one off match why go defensive ,[damage limitation] rather than bringing on the two youngsters taking off Doyle and Thomson earlier than he did and go for it as in the semi final. Lewis was desperately unlucky not to start as our two full backs on the day were poor.Didnt notice much fight either especially when Collum was having his gie smeltic everything spell Doyle seemed to be the only one questioning him. After the Brown incident all KT wanted to do was protect his pal Broony by pulling him away, we really have too many similar players in midfield and no great fight

[Devilstorment]

If Griffiths had been subbed after 20 minutes, it would have deflated our whole support and although it was always an uphill task as soon as it went to 2-0 after half an hour, we always had half a chance with Leigh Griffiths on the park and even if he was only half fit, he's more of a threat than any of our other strikers.

I can't blame Fenlon for what happened on Sunday. I'm gutted that we've lost in another cup final but we lost to the best team in the country. I don't think we need to over analyse things too much.


:agree:

[Saorsa]

Section 43:

What a great job they have done in improving the atmosphere at ER and organising card displays etc. Fantastic!

But: They continue to base themselves up in the gods in the top half of the East and to my mind that is a major mistake. In some of the smaller games they are barely noticeable and make less noise than a few hundred away fans ( sorry guys & girls .. its true ) its too late to do anything about that for next season, but IMO for the following season they should be asking Hibs to bump the family section from the FF ( where I sit ) to the North end of the East.

With the bottom deck of the FF as their base they would be more noticeable and probably louder. As far as I can see its better to have a whole self contained area in a small stand than one small section of a huge stand.

Sort of off the subject of Pat Fenlon I know :greengrin but you cant look at these things in isolation.Maybe the people who sit there dinnae want tae be stuck behind the goals? The reason that it was started there is because that is where those people chose tae sit. Have you asked them before deciding where they should sit?

Do you think the club should put the prices up for family tickets in the east tae cover the losses of all those moving tae cheap seats behind the goals or do you think that those moving tae behind the goals should still pay what they do now for a poorer view? Or do you have another way tae make up the losses?

[Onion]

Extremely Harsh at no point did he suggest we aspired to be the best fans in europe. Really dont see your point.

Was a general observation about the sheer volume and nature of the self-congratulatory posts/threads we've had about a unique event, and what we can read into it.

[jacomo]

Pat has earned more time in the job.

It's clear that we have made progress over the past 12 months. Have we progressed quickly enough? Well, people have to make a judgement on that but given the lack of resources at our manager's disposal, he has done ok. The Hibs squad is still very thin - I am not surprised he gambled on Griffiths because to start without him would have been a sign of surrender.

[LeighLoyal]

My one worry is how it will go next season without, I assume, Leigh G's goals. We're going to have to find a goal scorer, no doubt another loan instead of a real signing knowing Petrie as well. There's no excuse to be failing to deal with the likes of Ross County, none.

[BSEJVT]

Bear in mind he was heavily involved in the build up to THE chance and rounded the keeper himself during the first half.

For me the circumstances described by the above sentence justifies Fenlon playing Sparky.

I will however concede that there is not one other player in the team I would have made a similar exception for and can see where BH is coming from.

I think the change was delayed until the 3rd went in as we were still in the game, theoretically at least, until that point and one moment of magic from Sparky might have put us right back in it.

[bigwheel]

I cant see any reason to keep an injured player on, especially one as injured as i feel he clearly was? Teams defend from the front, and no team in the SPL should play against Celtic with 10 men, its suicide.

Your conclusions of Griffiths being like a man down are wrong - whilst not firing on all cylinders he was still decent in the first half .

No doubt Fenlon would have talked to Griffiths and asked him and the Physio how he was at half time . If Griffiths says he is fine to carry on...why wouldn't Fenlon send him back out. Fenlon might have taken him off earlier but you are really only arguing about 20 mins max of a difference . Not a huge risk for someone still capable of scoring a wonder goal...

He made a judgement call...if Griffiths scores in the first half no one even questions it...mountain , molehill .

[YehButNoBut]

I'm assuming this is a lot of p*sh

Bounce42 ‏@HibeesBounce (‏@HibeesBounce) From Our Forums: Pat Fenlon Sacked?: A lot of rumours flying around about fenlon gettin his P45...Is it pish or... http://bit.ly/142l8oc (http://t.co/Ji1Mk3MZvE)

[mentalhibee]

I'm assuming this is a lot of p*sh

Bounce42 ‏@HibeesBounce (‏@HibeesBounce) From Our Forums: Pat Fenlon Sacked?: A lot of rumours flying around about fenlon gettin his P45...Is it pish or... http://bit.ly/142l8oc (http://t.co/Ji1Mk3MZvE)

Wouldn't be surprised, you can't think getting beat 3-0 in the biggest game of the season is acceptable. Total gutted after Sunday:-(

[hibee19]

I'm assuming this is a lot of p*sh

Bounce42 ‏@HibeesBounceFrom Our Forums: Pat Fenlon Sacked?: A lot of rumours flying around about fenlon gettin his P45...Is it pish or... http://bit.ly/142l8oc (http://t.co/Ji1Mk3MZvE)

I just heard this from some bellend. I'm awaiting confirmation that he is indeed a bellend.

[Brightside]

Your conclusions of Griffiths being like a man down are wrong - whilst not firing on all cylinders he was still decent in the first half .

No doubt Fenlon would have talked to Griffiths and asked him and the Physio how he was at half time . If Griffiths says he is fine to carry on...why wouldn't Fenlon send him back out. Fenlon might have taken him off earlier but you are really only arguing about 20 mins max of a difference . Not a huge risk for someone still capable of scoring a wonder goal...

He made a judgement call...if Griffiths scores in the first half no one even questions it...mountain , molehill .

He spent more time bending over or sitting on the ground. He did very very little after he took his knock but it was obv that Fenlon was trying to get him to half time. There is no doubt Leigh is a cracking player but he did nothing after about 20 mins on Sunday.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Maybe the people who sit there dinnae want tae be stuck behind the goals? The reason that it was started there is because that is where those people chose tae sit. Have you asked them before deciding where they should sit?

Do you think the club should put the prices up for family tickets in the east tae cover the losses of all those moving tae cheap seats behind the goals or do you think that those moving tae behind the goals should still pay what they do now for a poorer view? Or do you have another way tae make up the losses?

I'm not proposing that folk get told to move anywhere.

From the uber fan point of view I would just like to see section 43 in a part of the ground where their considerable efforts would be more effective. If they are not for moving then discussion over. I do think however that when, as a fan, you are looking to influence the game and the team as much as possible the view isnt everything. Anyway I moved back from the East to the FF last season and to be honest the view isnt that bad :greengrin

I would be willing to bet that if the bottom deck of the FF was changed from seating to a standing area you wouldnt be able to hold section 43 back with a tank.

[silverhibee]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

I think it was a gamble the manager had to take BH, he had to start with Griffiths and see how it went with Sparky, but after 20/25 minutes it was quite clear he was struggling and Fenlon should have subbed him.

I am still a bit puzzled that the manager started KT as there is no chance he is fully fit either, certainly not 100% match fit and that was madness from Fenlon to start him, Stevenson would have been gutted when he heard he was on the bench after his superb performance against Dundee where Lewis played some very good attacking football and a great ball for Spoony's goal as well.

To play two players who are not 100% against celtc in a SCF is just suicidal and the manager needs to take some of the blame for the defeat on Sunday. Again.

My son just said that Griffiths has pulled out of the Scotland squad due to injury which if true would back up that Griffiths was carrying a injury in the final, for the manager to play him for so long in the final is just crazy.

[Aldo]

Wouldn't be surprised, you can't think getting beat 3-0 in the biggest game of the season is acceptable. Total gutted after Sunday:-(

So you think it's ok just to sack the man. That's everything that's wrong with the club btw. We need continuity and not changing our manager every couple of years. No it's not acceptable to get beaten but mon get a bloody grip. It will take a manager more than 18 months to turn the club around. I've seen enough in that time to see an improvement.

PF stays for me.

[silverhibee]

well said Gogs43- things are moving strongly in the right direction. I simply cannot understand why there is so much negativity towards Fenlon from some quarters- all I can assume it is because of That cup final which to be honest was a miracle we were in in the first place. Sure there is a long way to go but to my mind we are not only moving in the right direction have possibly our strongest base for a number of years. We have tried a new manager each year. It does not work. I trust Pat to build a strong team over time and judging by the response of the Hibs crowd, when 3-o down, so do the vast majority of the support.

We fully deserved to be in the final, look who we beat to get there and not forgetting our comeback against Falkirk in the semi, did they deserve to be 3 up against a team in the SPL who will have a far bigger budget than Falkirk.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm assuming this is a lot of p*sh

Bounce42 ‏@HibeesBounceFrom Our Forums: Pat Fenlon Sacked?: A lot of rumours flying around about fenlon gettin his P45...Is it pish or... http://bit.ly/142l8oc (http://t.co/Ji1Mk3MZvE)

Would be very surprised if this were true. Hells bells, though we didnt get into the top 6 we were better than last year and for better or worse we made another cup final. I think that next season is make or break for Pat Fenlon. But sack him now? That would be unreasonable and unjustified at this stage IMO.

[silverhibee]

Its hard to tell if another manager would have done any better than PF given the state of the club when he took over. I for one am prepared to see how it goes next season, but I do feel he just has to look like he is going to make the top 6 way before we get down to the last few games before the split.

We had a team this season who should have been in a position to make the top 6 with room to spare. Yes we were robbed of 5 points by two shocking decisions at Tannadice and in the derby. But we cant avoid the fact that our results against ICT ( who also had to rebuild ) and Ross County, just up from division 1 were a poor effort. Our results against Dundee were not the best either. We also underestimated a very good QOTS side in the League Cup .... which for a team like us was unforgivable.

The biggest factor in our failure to make the top 6 was our home form, which was very poor and something that PF has to sort out for next season or it will be a huge factor in him losing his job, if it does come to that.

As far as the state of our club versus the rest of the league goes:

We have the 3rd biggest crowds in the league outside of celtic and the £5 to get in Yams.
We have been in the last two SC finals which has surely boosted the coffers ... as opposed to getting bumped in the first round.
We have superb facilities and are based in one of Europe's finest cities ... surely a help in attracting players, as opposed to St Mirren etc.

Section 43:

What a great job they have done in improving the atmosphere at ER and organising card displays etc. Fantastic!

But: They continue to base themselves up in the gods in the top half of the East and to my mind that is a major mistake. In some of the smaller games they are barely noticeable and make less noise than a few hundred away fans ( sorry guys & girls .. its true ) its too late to do anything about that for next season, but IMO for the following season they should be asking Hibs to bump the family section from the FF ( where I sit ) to the North end of the East.

With the bottom deck of the FF as their base they would be more noticeable and probably louder. As far as I can see its better to have a whole self contained area in a small stand than one small section of a huge stand.

Sort of off the subject of Pat Fenlon I know :greengrin but you cant look at these things in isolation.

That will make up for the loss of revenue for finishing in the bottom six.

[zosohibee]

I'm torn between my opinions on Fenlon, I want to see him get a chance in the job. I don't think bringing another manager in would do any good as no properly good manager would want to come here. He does however seem to be very narrow in his tactics, whenever we are looking troubled im never saying to myself "Fenlon's got something u his sleeve". For other teams your job in beating Hibs is a bit too simple. I can see other managers going "Hibs play 4-5-1, cut out everything that comes to Leigh Griffiths, they'll hoof it to him so you get your head to those hoofs and don't let him bring them down. The defence basically never tackles so run at them and they'll crumble." Pat has made some good and bad signings, every manager does. However loathed as I am to mention him, Calderwood signed Griffiths initially. Useless gimp though he was. Next season is Pat's most important yet. 3 cup finals in a row is nigh on impossible, he needs to prove he's good at something else. This summer is make or break. Think he needs time, don't think he is the saviour of Hibs.

[blackpoolhibs]

Maybe because even a half fit Griffiths is more of a threat than anyone else we had in our team?

A ridiculous assumption in my opinion, the player spent most of the game bent over. He hardly made any forward runs into space, it was like playing with 10 men. :confused:

[One Day Soon]

Quite a lot of wise after the event MOFOs on here eh?

[bigwheel]

Quite a lot of wise after the event MOFOs on here eh?

Completely agree - this hindsight management is an easy game..and they still get it wrong ! Ha

[blackpoolhibs]

Quite a lot of wise after the event MOFOs on here eh?

I have said i'd have hooked Griffiths after 15-20 minutes, there's nothing wise after the events about that statement from me.

I said it to my mate at the time. I'm not quite sure how anyone giving an opinion after the game is finished is a wise after the event MOFO, should they have posted during the match to satisfy everyone they have these opinions?

[sahib]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

I watched the game on telly and you could clearly see Pat was distracted by having to wear a collar and tie. He had the tell tale twitch of a man in discomfort due to a tight collar on a mild day.

[One Day Soon]

I have said i'd have hooked Griffiths after 15-20 minutes, there's nothing wise after the events about that statement from me.

I said it to my mate at the time. I'm not quite sure how anyone giving an opinion after the game is finished is a wise after the event MOFO, should they have posted during the match to satisfy everyone they have these opinions?

I can see why. But while the alternatives would no doubt have been more mobile none of them would have had his potential to conjure a goal from nowhere in the context of a game where we were finding their much bigger and faster defence almost impossible to get through or behind. So it is far from clear that your proposed substitution would have been effective.

You either think Pat's heading in the right direction with his rebuild or you don't. For what its worth I think he is.

[One Day Soon]

I watched the game on telly and you could clearly see Pat was distracted by having to wear a collar and tie. He had the tell tale twitch of a man in discomfort due to a tight collar on a mild day.

Probably the most insightful post on this thread.

[blackpoolhibs]

Pat's first full season

Fifty-One points
Closest margin to top in 12 seasons
SPL loss ratio 34% - Best equal in our last 12 seasons
Seventh place
Started brightly, no danger of relegation during season
Scottish Cup Final 2 years in a row
Unbeaten against Hearts
Manager building for the future
Bit more stability in squad
Better keeper, more dig in midfield, better mix of tactics than before
Young players coming through
Strong connection between players, manager and supporters



Previous seasons

Thirty something points last 2 seasons
Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
Tenth/Eleventh place
Flirting with relegation
Previous Scottish Cup Final 2001
Poor record against Hearts
Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
Journeymen passing through
Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
No youth development
Disconnect between players, manager and supporters


Lots of areas for improvement, but not a bad effort I'm sure you would agree Gary

Sorry missed this post yesterday, i agree with all that. Although it has bugger all to do with what i said in my original post? :confused:

[blackpoolhibs]

I can see why. But while the alternatives would no doubt have been more mobile none of them would have had his potential to conjure a goal from nowhere in the context of a game where we were finding their much bigger and faster defence almost impossible to get through or behind. So it is far from clear that your proposed substitution would have been effective.

You either think Pat's heading in the right direction with his rebuild or you don't. For what its worth I think he is.

So do i, but it sure as hell wont stop me saying what i feel on a Hibs message board.

[Stevie Reid]

The only thing I would rather Pat did differently, which I did suggest on here in the lead up to the final, would have been having Taiwo man mark Scott Brown - Taiwo has excellent energy and discipline, and could have stopped Brown running the show for them. We saw what happened to Brown when Claros put one legitimate tackle in on him, having Taiwo snapping at his heels the whole game could have caused him to lose the plot. If it worked and Taiwo tired, Stevenson could have then replaced him to keep the job going.

With regards to Griffiths, we had to start him - he couldn't run and wasn't really showing for the ball, but had something dropped to him or we were awarded a free kick in the right area, he could still have done some damage. Plus, he was no slouch when he managed to round Forster in the first half.

After losing Latapy and (effectively) Sauzee for the 2001 final, it really is brutal luck for us to have Leigh injured the day before the final. That was the most sickening thing for me.

With regards to Pat, I'm looking forward to seeing how he can continue to improve us this summer, and can't wait for next season.

[skipster7]

Pat already said that he took Griffiths off " once the game was gone at 3-0" was LG fully fit ? no but up until their 3rd there's no one else id rather have standing over a free kick to get us back in it. always worth keeping on just for that imo.

[blackpoolhibs]

Pat already said that he took Griffiths off " once the game was gone at 3-0" was LG fully fit ? no but up until their 3rd there's no one else id rather have standing over a free kick to get us back in it. always worth keeping on just for that imo.

I find that astounding? Basically you'd rather play with 10 men on the off chance we might get a free kick. :confused:

Personally i'd rather we played with 11 men against the best team in the country.

[lord bunberry]

Pat already said that he took Griffiths off " once the game was gone at 3-0" was LG fully fit ? no but up until their 3rd there's no one else id rather have standing over a free kick to get us back in it. always worth keeping on just for that imo.

The problem with that is we didn't get a free kick. If griffiths wasn't fit enough to be having an impact on the game he should have been subbed earlier

[skipster7]

I find that astounding? Basically you'd rather play with 10 men on the off chance we might get a free kick. :confused:

Personally i'd rather we played with 11 men against the best team in the country.
:confused:nothing like "playing with 10 men" imo.LG done plenty running in the first half mostly down the left harrying Lustig if you watch it back and took a couple of whacks, one on his calf from mulgrew.that combined with half time has probably tightened it up. Still worth having him on as we have very few others who can get you the goal out of nothing which was required at 0-2. Dont think Caldwell is anywhere near ready and is a very raw laddie still.

[JimBHibees]

The only thing I would rather Pat did differently, which I did suggest on here in the lead up to the final, would have been having Taiwo man mark Scott Brown - Taiwo has excellent energy and discipline, and could have stopped Brown running the show for them. We saw what happened to Brown when Claros put one legitimate tackle in on him, having Taiwo snapping at his heels the whole game could have caused him to lose the plot. If it worked and Taiwo tired, Stevenson could have then replaced him to keep the job going.

With regards to Griffiths, we had to start him - he couldn't run and wasn't really showing for the ball, but had something dropped to him or we were awarded a free kick in the right area, he could still have done some damage. Plus, he was no slouch when he managed to round Forster in the first half.

After losing Latapy and (effectively) Sauzee for the 2001 final, it really is brutal luck for us to have Leigh injured the day before the final. That was the most sickening thing for me.

With regards to Pat, I'm looking forward to seeing how he can continue to improve us this summer, and can't wait for next season.

Agree we should have started with 5 in the middle and Tom pushing onto Brown whenever possible.

[blackpoolhibs]

:confused:nothing like "playing with 10 men" imo.LG done plenty running in the first half mostly down the left harrying Lustig if you watch it back and took a couple of whacks, one on his calf from mulgrew.that combined with half time has probably tightened it up. Still worth having him on as we have very few others who can get you the goal out of nothing which was required at 0-2. Dont think Caldwell is anywhere near ready and is a very raw laddie still.

Griffiths was nowhere near as effectual as he normally is, even against celtic. He was running and harrying against Lustig i agree with that, but not as intensely or as quick as he should have been. He also only shut down when the ball was near him, he hardly ran or done enough working as a pair with Doyle.

And when we went 1 up front, it was an embarrassment watching him struggle.

[Captain Trips]

Griffiths was nowhere near as effectual as he normally is, even against celtic. He was running and harrying against Lustig i agree with that, but not as intensely or as quick as he should have been. He also only shut down when the ball was near him, he hardly ran or done enough working as a pair with Doyle.

And when we went 1 up front, it was an embarrassment watching him struggle.

Agreed, I can understand starting him to see what happens as he is a key player but after 20 mins he should have come off and see what a fully fit partner with Doyle could do.

[Expecting Rain]

I dont want Fenlon sacked, but i'm very surprised just how easy a ride he's getting after Sundays game.

I understand why he picked the formation, and why he changed it, but why he kept a clearly unfit player on for 85 minutes has completely baffled me?

In my opinion that was absolutely ridiculous, i understand why he started Griffiths but it was as clear after 15-20 minutes he was struggling.

We basically played with 10 men from then on. If anyone can justify why we played a clearly injured player for so long, can you please explain it to me? :confused:

Agree, he virtually went with the same set-up that set off within 45 minutes of a disaster against Falkirk and not the one that retrieved the situation in the 2nd half with Harris and McGivern linking up. ON an energy sapping pitch he went with an unfit striker, an out of position striker, a right back who is well past his best and a midfielder who has hardly played and came back from numerous injuries.
If not for the emergence of Harris, Caldwell, Handling and Forster and the miraculous efforts of Leigh and Ben Williams the season would have been bleak.

[skipster7]

Griffiths was nowhere near as effectual as he normally is, even against celtic. He was running and harrying against Lustig i agree with that, but not as intensely or as quick as he should have been. He also only shut down when the ball was near him, he hardly ran or done enough working as a pair with Doyle.

And when we went 1 up front, it was an embarrassment watching him struggle.
I know what your saying but he could have scored when he rounded the keeper, seemed plenty running in him at the start.would Caldwell have done any better ? we'll never know but i doubt it. the early goal let Celtic control the game and looking at our bench an earlier change for Leigh wouldnt have altered that. No one else in the squad can score a goal out of nothing like LG even at 80% so a gamble worth taking. imo:wink:

[silverhibee]

Agree we should have started with 5 in the middle and Tom pushing onto Brown whenever possible.


Still can't believe it took until the 2nd half for a Hibs player to put a challenge in on Brown, folk saying he ran the show for celtc in the midfield, that may be true but it was because we allowed him to do it, Claros or one of our other midfielders should have made that challenge in the first 10 minutes rather than the 2nd half.

[JimBHibees]

Still can't believe it took until the 2nd half for a Hibs player to put a challenge in on Brown, folk saying he ran the show for celtc in the midfield, that may be true but it was because we allowed him to do it, Claros or one of our other midfielders should have made that challenge in the first 10 minutes rather than the 2nd half.

Absolutely just look at the reaction a fair to middling chance he would have walked if someone else had put in something similar. I know it has been debated alot re 442 or 451 however IMO there needs to be flexibility when to play and when not to. Against Celtic in a final is the time not to start with 442, playing Falkirk in the semi is the time to play it. We simply arent good enough to be matching up with them, we should have tried to frustrate them early doors.

[BSEJVT]

Hindsight is perfect

IMO if Doyle had scored with the header and /or Leigh had scored / got a penalty when he rounded Forster, then despite the final result this thread and the ensuing tactics debate would be mute points.

In hindsight you can argue the tactics / playing Sparky (or keeping him on so long) didnt work.

IMO they were reasonable positions to take in advance, certainly a lot more feasible than playing Cairney & Robertson in the Semi!

My biggest concern with Fenlon is he moulds the shape of the team round the personnel rather than vice versa.

Its fine when it works but when it doesnt we look bloody awful and get horsed.

I think at 0-2 his prime thought was to prevent another massacre and hope against hope he could fluke a goal.

There was no way IMO that even with everyone fit and well we could keep a clean sheet, therefore I suspect the plan was to try and grab a goal and give us something to hang on to in a backs to the wall Alamo type defence.

He nearly managed the first part, I remain unconvinced whether we could ever have managed the second.

[Speedway]

Ultimately I think that, if Pat Fenlon makes selection choices that we all agree with and wins more than he loses in both the league and cup competitions through playing expansive attacking football with a cutting edge, he can expect an easier ride from his critics on here.

[Stevie Reid]

Edit

[Paisley Hibby]

Did he not get injured in the game? In the first half Celtc made no secret of their defensive tactics: kick Griffiths. Add to that he seemed to roll his ankle in one challenge and it was job done for them. Bear in mind he was heavily involved in the build up to THE chance and rounded the keeper himself during the first half.

Fenlon went for it, and we played ok from middle to front in the first 25 minutes but were let down in defence. He changed it as the way the defence was playing we could have been more down at half time, obviously wanted to stem the flow. I am disappointed he didn't go for it in the second half, but maybe Celtc were just professional in their approach, they allowed us the ball where it didn't matter...

Not sure it's fair to say that Celtic's tactics were kick Griffiths but I do did think he got hurt during the match. That maybe aggravated an existing problem. As for him staying on the pitch I feel that was in case we got a free kick in a good position. Plus, as others have said, there's nobody else we have up front that comes anywhere near as good as him. Fenlon had no choice but to start to play us more cautiously given our defence's woeful first 25 minutes. However, his BIG mistake for me was playing Thomson. He should never have been near the starting eleven. And yes, for much of the second half Celtic let us have the ball because we were no real threat to them and they just waited to hit on the break.

[hibee62]

Not sure it's fair to say that Celtic's tactics were kick Griffiths but I do did think he got hurt during the match. That maybe aggravated an existing problem. As for him staying on the pitch I feel that was in case we got a free kick in a good position. Plus, as others have said, there's nobody else we have up front that comes anywhere near as good as him. Fenlon had no choice but to start to play us more cautiously given our defence's woeful first 25 minutes. However, his BIG mistake for me was playing Thomson. He should never have been near the starting eleven. And yes, for much of the second half Celtic let us have the ball because we were no real threat to them and they just waited to hit on the break.

They definitely went in to tackle hard everytime he had the ball, not saying they fouled him ever but they definitely went out to shake him up. Agreed mostly on everything else, the second half was a professional job by Celtc and the right thing to do in the situation and we just had no answer. The Thomson decision I think was based on his derby performance, where the midfield seemed to work well in the same configuration, unfortunately Celtc are much better than Hearts!

[One Day Soon]

Griffiths was nowhere near as effectual as he normally is, even against celtic. He was running and harrying against Lustig i agree with that, but not as intensely or as quick as he should have been. He also only shut down when the ball was near him, he hardly ran or done enough working as a pair with Doyle.

And when we went 1 up front, it was an embarrassment watching him struggle.


We had two choices up front for that game. One including Griffiths (not fully fit but capable of getting a goal from nowhere) and the other not including Griffiths (meaning fielding Doyle and A N Other - a forward line option that is pretty much universally agreed as having been useless this season).

I'll take the Griffiths option as the lesser of two evils.

Or perhaps Kuqui should have played...

[blackpoolhibs]

We had two choices up front for that game. One including Griffiths (not fully fit but capable of getting a goal from nowhere) and the other not including Griffiths (meaning fielding Doyle and A N Other - a forward line option that is pretty much universally agreed as having been useless this season).

I'll take the Griffiths option as the lesser of two evils.

Or perhaps Kuqui should have played...

Well i could see he was not capable of running very well, your scenario is guesswork. Caldwell scored a goal out of nothing at tynecastle, i'd not call him useless.

I will say it again, just like i said it at the time, Griffiths playing was like playing with 10 men in my opinion, and i'd bet my last penny if Fenlon had his chance again he'd have hooked him early doors or perhaps not even played him.

Teams defend from the front, we were incapable of that on Sunday.

[One Day Soon]

Well i could see he was not capable of running very well, your scenario is guesswork. Caldwell scored a goal out of nothing at tynecastle, i'd not call him useless.

I will say it again, just like i said it at the time, Griffiths playing was like playing with 10 men in my opinion, and i'd bet my last penny if Fenlon had his chance again he'd have hooked him early doors or perhaps not even played him.

Teams defend from the front, we were incapable of that on Sunday.


Hardly guesswork, Griffiths has been banging in superlative goals all season.

Griffiths wasn't himself but the alternatives weren't great. I think Caldwell is a cracking prospect but still not a lot more than that at this stage.

Our biggest weakness in my view has been, was and is our full backs.

[Scottie]

Well i could see he was not capable of running very well, your scenario is guesswork. Caldwell scored a goal out of nothing at tynecastle, i'd not call him useless.

I will say it again, just like i said it at the time, Griffiths playing was like playing with 10 men in my opinion, and i'd bet my last penny if Fenlon had his chance again he'd have hooked him early doors or perhaps not even played him.

Teams defend from the front, we were incapable of that on Sunday.

Hindsight is a great thing. Even a quarter fit Leigh was a better option than what we had on the bench on Sunday.The young forwards we have at the club at the mo have not enough experience to start a Scottish cup final and i think thats why PF started Leigh even only 25% fit.

As a side was that your massive purple flag i seen at the back of the south on Sunday?

[blackpoolhibs]

Hardly guesswork, Griffiths has been banging in superlative goals all season.

Griffiths wasn't himself but the alternatives weren't great. I think Caldwell is a cracking prospect but still not a lot more than that at this stage.

Our biggest weakness in my view has been, was and is our full backs.

I agree our full backs were poor, but as i said earlier you defend from the front, and he was incapable of that, and i'm convinced Griffiths was poor because of his injury.

I watched a player who couldn't shut down, couldn't make his normal runs, and couldn't get into the right positions because he was bent over or limping around.

Now i agree he could have scored from a free kick, but i doubt he'd score from open play as he was never in a position bar once to score or even create.

Its pointless carrying on this discussion, i don't think he should have been on the park after 20 minutes, and you do in the off chance we got a free kick or he managed to create something out of nothing.

[Captain Trips]

]Hardly guesswork, Griffiths has been banging in superlative goals all season.[/B]

Griffiths wasn't himself but the alternatives weren't great. I think Caldwell is a cracking prospect but still not a lot more than that at this stage.

Our biggest weakness in my view has been, was and is our full backs.

It is guesswork what Caldwell would have done it is all total conjecture, what Griffiths has done when fit is irrelevant to what Caldwell may or may not have done, what isnt guesswork is we played a cup final with an unfit player and that for me isnt right. If we are building a team with PF and after 18 months you are saying the alternatives arent great to one striker then we really do have problems.

Leigh is our best forward and yeah by all means perhaps start him as a gamble but stand up and make change when the guy is going down on a few occasions and clealry not the Leigh we know bring on somebody that can run into positions maybe create room for others if not himself.

[blackpoolhibs]

It is guesswork what Caldwell would have done it is all total conjecture, what Griffiths has done when fit is irrelevant to what Caldwell may or may not have done, what isnt guesswork is we played a cup final with an unfit player and that for me isnt right. If we are building a team with PF and after 18 months you are saying the alternatives arent great to one striker then we really do have problems.

Leigh is our best forward and yeah by all means perhaps start him as a gamble but stand up and make change when the guy is going down on a few occasions and clealry not the Leigh we know bring on somebody that can run into positions maybe create room for others if not himself.

100% spot on. :top marks

[pontius pilate]

I'll more than likely get the old LTYF or ridiculed but I've heard on two separate accessions from two different people that pat was ready to walk away from Hibs in the winter reason being not enough backing in the transfer window. Is there anybody in the know who can confirm or deny this?