Attack on soldier in Woolwich

[YehButNoBut]

Crazy stuff in London today with a soldier (allegedly) being killed in Woolwich street, strong indications that it was a terrorist attack.

ITV footage below show the killers who did not flee the scene but waited until armed police arrived and shot them.

Admins feel free to remove if to gruesome but has been shown on ITV news.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws_HF9qSrYI

[Sylar]

Absolutely abhorrent act of mindless violence.

"In our lands, our women and children have to witness stuff like this everyday" - by the sounds of things, Croydon's gotten a lot more brutal since I was last there.

What's going to be an equal shame is the backlash on the Islamic community as the neanderthal neo-fascists attempt to tar all Muslims with the terror brush again.

Undoubtedly we'll be hearing from our friendly right wing groups who "want to keep Britain British" in the days to come :rolleyes:

[heidtheba]

Absolutely abhorrent act of mindless violence.

"In our lands, our women and children have to witness stuff like this everyday" - by the sounds of things, Croydon's gotten a lot more brutal since I was last there.

What's going to be an equal shame is the backlash on the Islamic community as the neanderthal neo-fascists attempt to tar all Muslims with the terror brush again.

Undoubtedly we'll be hearing from our friendly right wing groups who "want to keep Britain British" in the days to come :rolleyes:

Christ facebook 'shares' sicken me sometimes. RIP the soldier BUT I've had one 'friend' whose shared an RIP message on some bloody god awful right wing group's page. Don't think she even read what it was from. Least I hope so. Some right muppets out there.

[Sir David Gray]

Absolutely shocked and sickened by what's happened today.

It's bad enough hearing about our soldiers being murdered in Afghanistan on a daily basis but to have attacks like this in our own country is absolutely appalling.

Of course it's wrong that the entire Muslim population is blamed for this attack, and other terrorist incidents before it, but I think the shocking and barbaric nature of this seemingly unprovoked attack on a defenceless man must be the motivation that the government needs to seriously crack down on Islamic terrorism.

It's simply unacceptable to have incidents like this occurring on our streets and I hope David Cameron makes this a priority.

My thoughts and sympathies go out to the victim's family and all who knew him.

I just hope they get justice for him.

[hibsbollah]

Thats horrific.

Surely drugs or mental health problems must be a factor. Certainly not 'terrorism' as weve come to understand it. Hatemongers on both sides will be enjoying it.

[Sergey]

To put this into perspective, there were circa 750 murders in London in 2012 - this is simply another statistic to add to the 2013 figure. A pair of nutters. Nothing more.

Media frenzy is exactly what was planned by the perpetrators, if indeed they had a brain.

[Minder]

RIP, no one deserves to go like. Cowards.

Pray for calm heads to see sense, this could spiral out of control.

Not a good day.

[Mon Dieu4]

Absolutely shocked and sickened by what's happened today.

It's bad enough hearing about our soldiers being murdered in Afghanistan on a daily basis but to have attacks like this in our own country is absolutely appalling.

Of course it's wrong that the entire Muslim population is blamed for this attack, and other terrorist incidents before it, but I think the shocking and barbaric nature of this seemingly unprovoked attack on a defenceless man must be the motivation that the government needs to seriously crack down on Islamic terrorism.

It's simply unacceptable to have incidents like this occurring on our streets and I hope David Cameron makes this a priority.

My thoughts and sympathies go out to the victim's family and all who knew him.

I just hope they get justice for him.

All the last few governments take terrorism seriously in my opinion, i am no fan of Cameron buy there is absolutely nothing he or the Tories could have done to stop this

You can find out about terror plots in regards to bombs and other targets but if two complete and utter mentalists decide to do what this two have then i don't see what you can do

I don't mean this to sounds flippant but how easy would it be to grab a knife or something from your house and go do what they have

doesn't take planning or any special materials etc

the video made me sick to my stomach but.i would question their mental health rather than their religion

[magpie1892]

A pair of nutters. Nothing more.

You may wish that to be the case, but I think we'll find out in the days and weeks to come that there's more to it than that.

[essexhibee]

To put this into perspective, there were circa 750 murders in London in 2012 - this is simply another statistic to add to the 2013 figure. A pair of nutters. Nothing more.

Media frenzy is exactly what was planned by the perpetrators, if indeed they had a brain.

The fact they were shouting aluah akbah and were making extremist comments to bystanders would suggest otherwise. This isn't gangland. It was a extremist attack.

[pacorosssco]

Thats horrific.

Surely drugs or mental health problems must be a factor. Certainly not 'terrorism' as weve come to understand it. Hatemongers on both sides will be enjoying it.

On first glance I agree with your post. Its hard to tell. Sadly I'm afraid we are losing communities all over Britain. I think the real issue is lack of jobs and a chance to be part off your community or to provide and better yourself.

There is no sight like the man with an amputated sole. There is no prosthetic for that. Al Pacino

As an aside does anyone know how they knew to attack the victim(soldier) if that was their intention ?

[edinburghhibee]

Lets just hope that this doesn't get out of hand. I heard the EDL are at the crime scene having a demonstration. Lets not turn this into a Muslim hate fest as these two are not linked to the normal Muslim followers. Two people have also been arrested for attacks in mosques, this isn't helping in the slightest.

[edinburghhibee]

On first glance I agree with your post. Its hard to tell. Sadly I'm afraid we are losing communities all over Britain. I think the real issue is lack of jobs and a chance to be part off your community or to provide and better yourself.

There is no sight like the man with an amputated sole. There is no prosthetic for that. Al Pacino

As an aside does anyone know how they knew to attack the victim(soldier) if that was their intention ?

He was wearing a help for Heros tshirt and was walking to the barracks close by

[Phil D. Rolls]

Absolutely abhorrent act of mindless violence.

"In our lands, our women and children have to witness stuff like this everyday" - by the sounds of things, Croydon's gotten a lot more brutal since I was last there.

What's going to be an equal shame is the backlash on the Islamic community as the neanderthal neo-fascists attempt to tar all Muslims with the terror brush again.

Undoubtedly we'll be hearing from our friendly right wing groups who "want to keep Britain British" in the days to come :rolleyes:

Good, balanced, post. I hope to hell that the lid can be kept on this.

I am seeing worrying trends on Facebook. Friends, who are not really political people, are getting sucked in by some vile and lunatic posting.

I have seen posts from British and Proud of it, and Protestant and Proud, being shared. There seems to be no dissent, and that is what is scariest.

The least offensive comments I have seen, are along the lines of "if they don't like it here they can F off". Completely missing the point that we aren't being told to get out of someone else's country.

Worrying times.

[Phil D. Rolls]

To put this into perspective, there were circa 750 murders in London in 2012 - this is simply another statistic to add to the 2013 figure. A pair of nutters. Nothing more.

Media frenzy is exactly what was planned by the perpetrators, if indeed they had a brain.

I think they are probably patsies. I think that someone is wanting an escalation in the conflict, to justify attacking Iran.

How often does a news crew make it to the scene of a stabbing before the p,ace is cordoned off? How many mutters phone the media after killing someone - and the media actually respond.

It's all too Lee Harvey Oswald
.

[Beefster]

I think they are probably patsies. I think that someone is wanting an escalation in the conflict, to justify attacking Iran.

How often does a news crew make it to the scene of a stabbing before the p,ace is cordoned off? How many mutters phone the media after killing someone - and the media actually respond.

It's all too Lee Harvey Oswald
.

You think yesterday's horrific events were part of a state-sponsored attempt to justify the case for war against Iran?

[.Sean.]

Got a sister who's training in nursing and training at aldershot so my family is pretty shaken up with this.


The extremists need to learn some ****ing respect for this country. They're over Herr probably to escape actions like this in their homeland, if they'd butchered a soldier in their own country they'd be hung from the nearest lampost.

Not talking about the hundreds of thousands of decent and respectful Muslims but the radicals can attempt to either fit in or **** off.

[Sylar]

Got a sister who's training in nursing and training at aldershot so my family is pretty shaken up with this.


The extremists need to learn some ****ing respect for this country. They're over Herr probably to escape actions like this in their homeland, if they'd butchered a soldier in their own country they'd be hung from the nearest lampost.

Not talking about the hundreds of thousands of decent and respectful Muslims but the radicals can attempt to either fit in or **** off.

Has London become independent from the UK? :confused:

[Phil D. Rolls]

You think yesterday's horrific events were part of a state-sponsored attempt to justify the case for war against Iran?

I haven't got a clue. Likewise, I wonder how those that are saying this is an Islamic conspiracy have formed their opinions so quickly.

Unlike them, my ill informed mutterings are unlikely to have the far right on the streets. For all we know, these guys murdered the guy whilst high in drugs.

[hibsbollah]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-anti-muslim-reprisals

[.Sean.]

Has London become independent from the UK? :confused:

Apologies, by home I mean somewhere that will encourage their nonsense terrorist propaganda. Muslim extremism isn't welcome on Britain. Burning poppies for a start should've seen some sort of action being taken.


So I'll rephrase, 'they' can fit in or **** off to some hole where it's seen as acceptable to kill a soldier and preach extremist garbage. Nothing but unwelcome s***.

I'm noy racist at all but this has hit a nerve - it could've been my sister popping out Aldershot barracks in an army hoodie.

[Sergio sledge]

I think they are probably patsies. I think that someone is wanting an escalation in the conflict, to justify attacking Iran.

How often does a news crew make it to the scene of a stabbing before the p,ace is cordoned off? How many mutters phone the media after killing someone - and the media actually respond.

It's all too Lee Harvey Oswald
.

The videos were taken by a bystander at the request of the killer. I don't think news crews were there before the place was cordoned off.

[Treadstone]

Two losers hiding behind a radical Islamist ideology that I doubt they barely know. They speak for the muslim faith as much as the EDL speak for me, ZERO.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Got a sister who's training in nursing and training at aldershot so my family is pretty shaken up with this.


The extremists need to learn some ****ing respect for this country. They're over Herr probably to escape actions like this in their homeland, if they'd butchered a soldier in their own country they'd be hung from the nearest lampost.

Not talking about the hundreds of thousands of decent and respectful Muslims but the radicals can attempt to either fit in or **** off.

They are nothing more than criminals. The problem with deporting people, is how do you define radical?
Where do you draw the line?

If we were to deport everyone that supports terrorism, then Scotland would lose a lot of people.


The videos were taken by a bystander at the request of the killer. I don't think news crews were there before the place was cordoned off.

Fair enough, that explains why they were there so soon.

[Beefster]

I haven't got a clue. Likewise, I wonder how those that are saying this is an Islamic conspiracy have formed their opinions so quickly.

The utterances of both murderers is what gives the impression that there may have been jihad reasoning behind the attack.

[Sergey]

20 years ago (almost to the day) a mile up the road saw the murder of Stephen Lawrence. That was an indiscriminate white on black crime. Yesterday was supposedly a Muslim on Western society crime. Both are abhorrent and make little sense to me, but I really struggle to differentiate the difference between the two crimes.

In my eyes, this is simply another murder, albeit by wanton attackers with religious convictions rather than racist.

[LeighLoyal]

I am enriched by the religion of peace. EDL are to blame.

[Andy74]

Some incredible pictures of people in their dozens standing about watching whilst a couple of guys are still there with cleavers and knives. I'd be out of there!

[Skanko79]

Tragic events like this will continue to happen unfortunately until our backwards, laid back and money grabbing government adopt a zero tollerance approach to nutcases like these two.

To think our taxes go towards the benefits that are given to these lunatics to live an easy life in our country only for them to feel they have the right to brutally murder the people that defend it really has to be stopped.

Unfortunately i feel its a matter of time before mob rule kicks in.

[.Sean.]

Tragic events like this will continue to happen unfortunately until our backwards, laid back and money grabbing government adopt a zero tollerance approach to nutcases like these two.

To think our taxes go towards the benefits that are given to these lunatics to live an easy life in our country only for them to feel they have the right to brutally murder the people that defend it really has to be stopped.

Unfortunately i feel its a matter of time before mob rule kicks in.
Great post.


I said the same thing to my mate last night, the mob rule thing has kind of been bubbling away for a while and I think this is the spark that might start the fire so to speak.

[Skanko79]

Great post.


I said the same thing to my mate last night, the mob rule thing has kind of been bubbling away for a while and I think this is the spark that might start the fire so to speak.

its a cert it will happen.

Look at australia and the way they look at it. we could learn alot from them if im being honest.

[LeighLoyal]

Tragic events like this will continue to happen unfortunately until our backwards, laid back and money grabbing government adopt a zero tollerance approach to nutcases like these two.

To think our taxes go towards the benefits that are given to these lunatics to live an easy life in our country only for them to feel they have the right to brutally murder the people that defend it really has to be stopped.

Unfortunately i feel its a matter of time before mob rule kicks in.




They won't crack down though, there are already no go areas in urban areas of England where the poice are afraid to enter and if they do it's with 'sensitive policing' in case there is are riots like in 2011, or the one in Bradford in 2001, and unfortunately the vacum is being filled by the EDL.

One of the main issues regards Islam is that the mosques are wholly unregulated, imo there should be licensing of Imans and some control over who and what is preached. These two nutters were converted to Islamism by extremists operating from a mosque.

[Skanko79]

They won't crack down though, there are already no go areas in urban areas of England where the poice are afraid to enter and if they do it's with 'sensitive policing' in case there is are riots like in 2011, or the one in Bradford in 2001, and unfortunately the vacum is being filled by the EDL.

One of the main issues regards Islam is that the mosques are wholly unregulated, imo there should be licensing of Imans and some control over who and what is preached. These two nutters were converted to Islamism by extremists operating from a mosque.

couldnt agree more mate, its time to monitor whats going on in these places.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The utterances of both murderers is what gives the impression that there may have been jihad reasoning behind the attack.

When I was young, there was an old tramp used to set the bins on Princes Street on fire. He then went around telling everyone he was the IRA.

I didn't believe him. Neither did the police. Even his fellow patients at the Royal Ed. had their doubts.

[CropleyWasGod]

They won't crack down though, there are already no go areas in urban areas of England where the poice are afraid to enter and if they do it's with 'sensitive policing' in case there is are riots like in 2011, or the one in Bradford in 2001, and unfortunately the vacum is being filled by the EDL.

One of the main issues regards Islam is that the mosques are wholly unregulated, imo there should be licensing of Imans and some control over who and what is preached. These two nutters were converted to Islamism by extremists operating from a mosque.

That's one sure way of making things worse. Regulation of religious practice.... really?

I have no doubt that the security services know who the "extremist" preachers are. Dealing with them is one issue, licencing of Islam is entirely another and not something I would wish to see in a democratic country.

[Phil D. Rolls]

They won't crack down though, there are already no go areas in urban areas of England where the poice are afraid to enter and if they do it's with 'sensitive policing' in case there is are riots like in 2011, or the one in Bradford in 2001, and unfortunately the vacum is being filled by the EDL.

One of the main issues regards Islam is that the mosques are wholly unregulated, imo there should be licensing of Imans and some control over who and what is preached. These two nutters were converted to Islamism by extremists operating from a mosque.


couldnt agree more mate, its time to monitor whats going on in these places.

Regulate places of worship? We cant even regulate the press!

Do you seriously believe pushing these people underground is going to solve the problem of radicalisation? Have a think about every other attempt governments have made to control people's beliefs.

By regulating them, all you do is make it more attractive to impressionable young men to become outlaws.

Presumably, religions that object to - say, homosexuality, or abortion, will be regulated too?

[yeezus.]

Tragic events like this will continue to happen unfortunately until our backwards, laid back and money grabbing government adopt a zero tollerance approach to nutcases like these two.

To think our taxes go towards the benefits that are given to these lunatics to live an easy life in our country only for them to feel they have the right to brutally murder the people that defend it really has to be stopped.

Unfortunately i feel its a matter of time before mob rule kicks in.

What a cheap point to make. It's their country too - they might not like that but as far as I can gather both men were English.

[Future17]

When I was young, there was an old tramp used to set the bins on Princes Street on fire. He then went around telling everyone he was the IRA.

I didn't believe him. Neither did the police. Even his fellow patients at the Royal Ed. had their doubts.

That doesn't mean that his beliefs were not the reason he set bins on fire though. :wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

That doesn't mean that his beliefs were not the reason he set bins on fire though. :wink:

It's time we had a war on beliefs. They seem to be at the root of everything.

[magpie1892]

In my eyes, this is simply another murder, albeit by wanton attackers with religious convictions rather than racist.

:troll:

[magpie1892]

It's their country too

And who would deny them the right to murder servicemen in broad daylight then hang about ranting about it?

Don't know what all the fuss is about myself.

[Skanko79]

What a cheap point to make. It's their country too - they might not like that but as far as I can gather both men were English.

oh sorry mate, let them get on with it then. nothing to see here.

both men were english, but had turned to islam. have you even bothered reading the news or watching what they said on the videos before you come out with a hairbrained and deluded statement like that?

[Phil D. Rolls]

oh sorry mate, let them get on with it then. nothing to see here.

both men were english, but had turned to islam. have you even bothered reading the news or watching what they said on the videos before you come out with a hairbrained and deluded statement like that?

Are you saying we should blame Islam for these men's behaviour?

[Phil D. Rolls]

:troll:

Come on mate, we are surely mature enough to debate the facts? It may not be true, but it is worth examining the possibility that these are just murderers who used Islam as an excuse.

People often play the insanity card when they are caught. Less often, insane people murder others due to instructions from "god".

[magpie1892]

Come on mate, we are surely mature enough to debate the facts? It may not be true, but it is worth examining the possibility that these are just murderers who used Islam as an excuse.

People often play the insanity card when they are caught. Less often, insane people murder others due to instructions from "god".

These guys are, by their own repeated admission at the scene, murderers in the name of islam. To conflate this with the Lawrence case is trolling.

[Treadstone]

Tragic events like this will continue to happen unfortunately until our backwards, laid back and money grabbing government adopt a zero tollerance approach to nutcases like these two.

To think our taxes go towards the benefits that are given to these lunatics to live an easy life in our country only for them to feel they have the right to brutally murder the people that defend it really has to be stopped.


What benefits were they on ?

[CropleyWasGod]

These guys are, by their own repeated admission at the scene, murderers in the name of islam. To conflate this with the Lawrence case is trolling.

According to the Islamic Society of Britain, it's not in the name of Islam. http://www.isb.org.uk/woolwich-terror-statement/

And, IMO, I do see a link between the 2 cases. They are both about irrational hatred of another culture.

[yeezus.]

oh sorry mate, let them get on with it then. nothing to see here.

both men were english, but had turned to islam. have you even bothered reading the news or watching what they said on the videos before you come out with a hairbrained and deluded statement like that?

Of course I know what has went on and I never said what they did was alright. It wasn't - it was cold blooded murder and I never suggested letting them get off with it.

Do you read the Daily Mail by any chance?

[yeezus.]

These guys are, by their own repeated admission at the scene, murderers in the name of islam. To conflate this with the Lawrence case is trolling.

I could go and do something similar in the name of Christianity - in fact many EDL supporters probably cite God when they attack and intimidate Muslims. Stop blaming Islam!

[Skanko79]

Are you saying we should blame Islam for these men's behaviour?

where in any of my posts have i said that?

[Skanko79]

What benefits were they on ?

ive absolutely no doubt they will have been getting some kind of government handout.

[Skanko79]

Of course I know what has went on and I never said what they did was alright. It wasn't - it was cold blooded murder and I never suggested letting them get off with it.

Do you read the Daily Mail by any chance?

so what was the point you were trying to make then?

i wouldnt wipe my @rse with it.

[Treadstone]

ive absolutely no doubt they will have been getting some kind of government handout.

Speculating then ?

[Skanko79]

Speculating then ?

so whats the point your really trying to make? are you another one of these keyboard gangsters thats gone about shouting your mouth off that the war in iraq is the cause of this? i bet you are. looking at your previous posts you strike me as the type.

[Phil D. Rolls]

These guys are, by their own repeated admission at the scene, murderers in the name of islam. To conflate this with the Lawrence case is trolling.

I'm glad I didm't mention it, or the murder of PC Blakelock. I see a connection in that they were killed by bad people - because they saw another culture as their enemy. I didn't mention it, because I think the reaction to this killing has been increased due to it being shown almost live on TV. It has had a more immediate impact on people's consciousness.


ive absolutely no doubt they will have been getting some kind of government handout.

FACT?


where in any of my posts have i said that?

I thought
both men were english, but had turned to islam. might have had some significance. You say that in a way that suggests English followers of Islam are a seperate race from other English people.

I might have picked you up wrongly, did you mean something else?

[Treadstone]

so whats the point your really trying to make? are you another one of these keyboard gangsters thats gone about shouting your mouth off that the war in iraq is the cause of this? i bet you are. looking at your previous posts you strike me as the type.

Never answered the question though. Everyone with a child in Britain receives a 'government handout'. 'Keyboard gangster' :faf: . Thanks for taking the time to look at my profile. I am out of this thread it has taken a sinister turn.

[Phil D. Rolls]

so whats the point your really trying to make? are you another one of these keyboard gangsters thats gone about shouting your mouth off that the war in iraq is the cause of this? i bet you are. looking at your previous posts you strike me as the type.

What do you think the cause is?

[Skanko79]

I'm glad I didm't mention it, or the murder of PC Blakelock. I see a connection in that they were killed by bad people - because they saw another culture as their enemy. I didn't mention it, because I think the reaction to this killing has been increased due to it being shown almost live on TV. It has had a more immediate impact on people's consciousness.



FACT?



I thought might have had some significance. You say that in a way that suggests English followers of Islam are a seperate race from other English people.

I might have picked you up wrongly, did you mean something else?

so, like the other chap whats the point your making here? are you in a roundabout way jusitifying what went on by picking out things people who seem upset about it are saying?

someone is hacked to death not only for being a soldier but for being white, by two (so called) british people who have decided to turn to islam, are you ok with this?

im completely lost as to what your getting at?

[Skanko79]

What do you think the cause is?

the cause is this country has become a playground for these extremists to vent their anger at the western world that feeds them.

the likes of these two cowardly muppets yesterday, abu hamza, qatada and the like are happy taking our handouts but quite simply are against our way of life.

my point is, why dont we round up these oxygen thiefs and kick them out or jail them till they find a new home abroad to vent their anger in.

do you agree with that? or is that a massive breach of human rights? should we just continue to allow stuff like this and 7/7 to happen?

your quick to comment on people obvious anger at this so whats your thoughts?

[Phil D. Rolls]

so, like the other chap whats the point your making here? are you in a roundabout way jusitifying what went on by picking out things people who seem upset about it are saying?

someone is hacked to death not only for being a soldier but for being white, by two (so called) british people who have decided to turn to islam, are you ok with this?

im completely lost as to what your getting at?


the cause is this country has become a playground for these extremists to vent their anger at the western world that feeds them.

the likes of these two cowardly muppets yesterday, abu hamza, qatada and the like are happy taking our handouts but quite simply are against our way of life.

my point is, why dont we round up these oxygen thiefs and kick them out or jail them till they find a new home abroad to vent their anger in.

do you agree with that? or is that a massive breach of human rights? should we just continue to allow stuff like this and 7/7 to happen?

your quick to comment on people obvious anger at this so whats your thoughts?

I understand people are angry and shocked. I am trying to work out what happened by looking at what we actually know.

We don't know much. I'm not really in favour of rounding people up without good reason - it didn't really work in Northern Ireland. Yes, I do think it is a breach of human rights.

[CropleyWasGod]

the cause is this country has become a playground for these extremists to vent their anger at the western world that feeds them.

the likes of these two cowardly muppets yesterday, abu hamza, qatada and the like are happy taking our handouts but quite simply are against our way of life.

my point is, why dont we round up these oxygen thiefs and kick them out or jail them till they find a new home abroad to vent their anger in.

do you agree with that? or is that a massive breach of human rights? should we just continue to allow stuff like this and 7/7 to happen?

your quick to comment on people obvious anger at this so whats your thoughts?

Because, as has been demonstrated in this country and world-wide, all that serves is radicalisation. Those who may have been on the edge of extremism, take the step across that line.

[Beefster]

When I was young, there was an old tramp used to set the bins on Princes Street on fire. He then went around telling everyone he was the IRA.

I didn't believe him. Neither did the police. Even his fellow patients at the Royal Ed. had their doubts.

I was answering your point about why it was tagged as a terrorist attack very quickly and I don't think your subsequent points (that I've quoted) are that relevant tbh. The two murderers had just murdered and beheaded a young man in the street whilst shouting about Allah so this is probably why people believed them. If they had set a bonfire in the middle of the road and claimed they were al Qaeda, I doubt many would have believed them.

It now turns out that they were followers of an extreme version of Islam and were known to the security services anyway.

[Skanko79]

I understand people are angry and shocked. I am trying to work out what happened by looking at what we actually know.

We don't know much. I'm not really in favour of rounding people up without good reason - it didn't really work in Northern Ireland. Yes, I do think it is a breach of human rights.

so what more do you want to know? the killers bragged on camera explaining what their motives were.

[Skanko79]

Because, as has been demonstrated in this country and world-wide, all that serves is radicalisation. Those who may have been on the edge of extremism, take the step across that line.

so its high time we find these people and deport/jail them before they do.

[CropleyWasGod]

so its high time we find these people and deport/jail them before they do.

Quite apart from the difficulty of deporting UK citizens......how would you go about identifying them?

And what grounds would you use? That they "might" be terrorists in the future?

[Andy74]

. Everyone with a child in Britain receives a 'government handout'. .

No they don't.

[Skanko79]

Quite apart from the difficulty of deporting UK citizens......how would you go about identifying them?

And what grounds would you use? That they "might" be terrorists in the future?

if you read my post correctly i used "jail" as another option.

these 2 animals were known to the police, and im sure they have a rather large list of suspected people that are likely to cause trouble. cracking down on it and sending out a message to the rest of the world would be a start.

again like the other folk on this thread who really have no answer to this, what are you getting at? what points are you really trying to make? do you think we should just lie down to these events and just wait for it to happen? what do you think was the cause? were these guys just 2 troubled young soles with **** all else to do?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I was answering your point about why it was tagged as a terrorist attack very quickly and I don't think your subsequent points (that I've quoted) are that relevant tbh. The two murderers had just murdered and beheaded a young man in the street whilst shouting about Allah so this is probably why people believed them. If they had set a bonfire in the middle of the road and claimed they were al Qaeda, I doubt many would have believed them.

It now turns out that they were followers of an extreme version of Islam and were known to the security services anyway.

My point was insane people, or people who want to appear insane, often attribute their actions to religious or political beliefs. You have shed some new light on the subject, that would appear to suggest that they were part of a terrorist group.

All I was saying is that we shouldn't make assumptions without some factual basis.


so what more do you want to know? the killers bragged on camera explaining what their motives were.

See above.

[CropleyWasGod]

if you read my post correctly i used "jail" as another option.

these 2 animals were known to the police, and im sure they have a rather large list of suspected people that are likely to cause trouble. cracking down on it and sending out a message to the rest of the world would be a start.

again like the other folk on this thread who really have no answer to this, what are you getting at? what points are you really trying to make? do you think we should just lie down to these events and just wait for it to happen? what do you think was the cause? were these guys just 2 troubled young soles with **** all else to do?

I would prefer to wait until justice runs its course before I decide what the "cause" is.

Of course the security services have lists and, sometimes, they can act on that information and prevent crimes being committed. This time, for whatever reason, they didn't. What they can't do, though, is go around arresting people on the grounds that they "might" commit a crime in the future. Not only is that illegal but also, as I have said, only serves to make things worse. (cf Ulster).

[Skanko79]

I would prefer to wait until justice runs its course before I decide what the "cause" is.

Of course the security services have lists and, sometimes, they can act on that information and prevent crimes being committed. This time, for whatever reason, they didn't. What they can't do, though, is go around arresting people on the grounds that they "might" commit a crime in the future. Not only is that illegal but also, as I have said, only serves to make things worse. (cf Ulster).

the system in this country is wrong, look at that clown abu quatada, an envelope full of money found in his house addressed to the azerbaijan mujahideen and we still couldnt deport him because of people genuinley concerned for his human rights. we need to be seen to make an example of these people, regardless of what fate awaits him in his homeland he should be on the next plane, along with the rest of these people who are trying to force feed their religion/faith to people that really dont want to hear it.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Do you read the Daily Mail by any chance?

I was wondering how long it would be until that got posted, not long at all as it happens.

[magpie1892]

According to the Islamic Society of Britain, it's not in the name of Islam. http://www.isb.org.uk/woolwich-terror-statement/

And, IMO, I do see a link between the 2 cases. They are both about irrational hatred of another culture.

Yes, the similarities between the two cases are remarkable: "Graham Silverton, 63, who has lived in the street for 25 years, said neighbours had a particularly bad experience with Adebolajo when he was a teenager. He said one of the neighbours' children, a teenage girl, had gone to the Adebolajos' door to retrieve a ball kicked into their garden and was insulted and punched by Adebolajo.The family lived in Romford until around 2004, when it is understood his parents divorced and they moved to Lincoln.
Police had sealed off Adebolajo's sister's home in Romford on Thursday and Metropolitan police officers travelled to Lincoln on Wednesday night to carry out searches at the family home in Saxilby.
Counter-terrorism officers and the security services are examining Adebolajo's links to the banned extremist group al-Muhajiroun (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/al-muhajiroun). It is understood he was radicalised around 10 years ago, changing his name to Mujaahid, which means "one who engages in jihad." - Guardian.

I can't remember which one it was, but didn't one of the Lawrence murderers change his name 10 years prior to that attack to 'I hate darkies'?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yes, the similarities between the two cases are remarkable: "Graham Silverton, 63, who has lived in the street for 25 years, said neighbours had a particularly bad experience with Adebolajo when he was a teenager. He said one of the neighbours' children, a teenage girl, had gone to the Adebolajos' door to retrieve a ball kicked into their garden and was insulted and punched by Adebolajo.The family lived in Romford until around 2004, when it is understood his parents divorced and they moved to Lincoln.
Police had sealed off Adebolajo's sister's home in Romford on Thursday and Metropolitan police officers travelled to Lincoln on Wednesday night to carry out searches at the family home in Saxilby.
Counter-terrorism officers and the security services are examining Adebolajo's links to the banned extremist group al-Muhajiroun (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/al-muhajiroun). It is understood he was radicalised around 10 years ago, changing his name to Mujaahid, which means "one who engages in jihad." - Guardian.

I can't remember which one it was, but didn't one of the Lawrence murderers change his name 10 years prior to that attack to 'I hate darkies'?

:faf: Good one.

I think he was originally called Jim Davidson, but wanted something a little less offensive.

[Hibrandenburg]

so its high time we find these people and deport/jail them before they do.

Good idea, let's put together a List of undesirables and ship them off to specially built camps where they can be detained until we find a Final Solution for this problem.

[magpie1892]

:faf: Good one.

I think he was originally called Jim Davidson, but wanted something a little less offensive.

...and he used to read the Daily Mail before answering the call from Mecca.

[steakbake]

The terrorists are winning this one, I'd say. Look at the media coverage and the politicians flapping about it. The oxygen of publicity and outcry has given them the reaction they don't deserve.

This was a criminal act and should be treated as such. Fk their politics and their warped beliefs. They're getting too much credence. They're common murderers.

Whatever happens to "keep calm and carry on"? All these tittish posters that every clown and his/her dog have got emblazoned everywhere....

...and they say the British have some kind of monopoly on irony.

[Beefster]

Good idea, let's put together a List of undesirables and ship them off to specially built camps where they can be detained until we find a Final Solution for this problem.

I'm not supporting the argument that you're responding to but there's a slight difference between shipping Jews and political opponents to concentration camps en masse and deporting a couple of radicals who are preaching hate and jihad.

On the original topic, turns out the victim was 25 and leaves behind a two year old child. As if it wasn't tragic enough...

[steakbake]

I'm not supporting the argument that you're responding to but there's a slight difference between shipping Jews and political opponents to concentration camps en masse and deporting a couple of radicals who are preaching hate and jihad.

On the original topic, turns out the victim was 25 and leaves behind a two year old child. As if it wasn't tragic enough...

How do you deport people who are from here?

Where would we have deported Raul Moat to, or that Cumbrian taxi driver?

[CropleyWasGod]

The terrorists are winning this one, I'd say. Look at the media coverage and the politicians flapping about it. The oxygen of publicity and outcry has given them the reaction they don't deserve.

This was a criminal act and should be treated as such. Fk their politics and their warped beliefs. They're getting too much credence. They're common murderers.

Whatever happens to "keep calm and carry on"? All these tittish posters that every clown and his/her dog have got emblazoned everywhere....

...and they say the British have some kind of monopoly on irony.

I have just had a similar conversation. It bothers me that the whole thing was an attempt to stir things up and, perhaps, stoke some kind of over-reaction. That has happened already, with the EDL protest and the attacks on mosques. Hopefully, it goes no further.

[yeezus.]

I was wondering how long it would be until that got posted, not long at all as it happens.

:greengrin I noticed nobody else had mentioned it.

[CropleyWasGod]

How do you deport people who are from here?

If they're UK citizens, threaten to send them to Scotland if we get independence. That'll sort out the vote :greengrin

[Beefster]

How do you deport people who are from here?

Abu Qatada is Jordanian. As I said, I wasn't supporting the argument - only objecting to the comparison to the Holocaust.

[steakbake]

Abu Qatada is Jordanian. As I said, I wasn't supporting the argument - only objecting to the comparison to the Holocaust.

Fair play. I'd like to see Abi Qatada given the boot but somewhere along the line, he's got lawyers who are doing a bang up job of making sure that doesn't happen. British lawyers, presumably...

[Skanko79]

:greengrin I noticed nobody else had mentioned it.

whats the daily mail got to do with 2 islamic extremists hacking an innocent person to death anyway?

[yeezus.]

whats the daily mail got to do with 2 islamic extremists hacking an innocent person to death anyway?

That wasn't the comparison. I was trying to point our your language is exactly what I'd expect from that rag. I've seen no evidence that they were on benefits and I've seen no evidence that Islam itself is the root cause of this murder.

[magpie1892]

whats the daily mail got to do with 2 islamic extremists hacking an innocent person to death anyway?

Because if you read the Daily Mail you're a racist, bigoted, transphobic, fascistic, 'swivel-eyed' lunatic. Pay attention!

[Phil D. Rolls]

...and he used to read the Daily Mail before answering the call from Mecca.

How will yesterday affect house prices in Woolwich?

[steakbake]

How will yesterday affect house prices in Woolwich?

Is the answer "Bulgarians"?

[Skanko79]

That wasn't the comparison. I was trying to point our your language is exactly what I'd expect from that rag. I've seen no evidence that they were on benefits and I've seen no evidence that Islam itself is the root cause of this murder.

have you even took the time to watch the video of the killers?

[yeezus.]

have you even took the time to watch the video of the killers?

For the second time, yes.

[Phil D. Rolls]

whats the daily mail got to do with 2 islamic extremists hacking an innocent person to death anyway?

Nothing unless the victim was a gypsy. ;)

[Skanko79]

For the second time, yes.

are you deaf?

[silverhibee]

Two more people arrested in connection with murder of soldier yesterday.

[.Sean.]

its a cert it will happen.

Look at australia and the way they look at it. we could learn alot from them if im being honest.
:agree:

Australian citizens wouldn't accept any nonsense like this, they're very set in their ways. Nor would they tolerate a givernment like the one we're lumbered with.

the cause is this country has become a playground for these extremists to vent their anger at the western world that feeds them.

the likes of these two cowardly muppets yesterday, abu hamza, qatada and the like are happy taking our handouts but quite simply are against our way of life.

my point is, why dont we round up these oxygen thiefs and kick them out or jail them till they find a new home abroad to vent their anger in.

do you agree with that? or is that a massive breach of human rights? should we just continue to allow stuff like this and 7/7 to happen?

your quick to comment on people obvious anger at this so whats your thoughts?
:top marks

Good idea, let's put together a List of undesirables and ship them off to specially built camps where they can be detained until we find a Final Solution for this problem.
Definetely. Preferably a land were they can't sit around milking the people they preach bile against.

Two more people arrested in connection with murder of soldier yesterday.
Good.

[Bostonhibby]

Cowards doing it to people who they would never be able to confront man to man / face to face - A frightening feature of recent attacks by individuals who live in, and enjoy the benefits of, the tolerant country Britain is.

They tend to contribute nothing to attempts to be a cosmopolitan society but in their pursuit of the imposition of their own particular take on how the world should run they are content to resort to cowardly attacks like this to express their views.

The liberal democracy that we live in ironically allows the freedom of movement and expression that makes attacks in the name of a religion or any other cause difficult to predict and manage - it is now being exploited to breaking point and the time may well be coming where something like this classically extremist ambush will provoke an earlier rather than later materialisation of Enoch Powell's prophecy of civil war.

At some point some British people and religions who find themselves unrepresented by the inertia and accomodating statements of politicians to UK based or produced extermism and will undoubtedly respond to what is happening.

The government now is saying the same as any other one will in response to a situation like this, there will be meetings and statements but essentially no action for fear of offending or breaching perceived rights of the very perpretrators of the crimes or others who hold similar views. The less that is done the more confident they become. Having these criminals and 2000 like them on a list is not enough, it does appear like we are waiting for the crime to happen to validate the evidence - not much consolation to the victim.

[Bostonhibby]

Good idea, let's put together a List of undesirables and ship them off to specially built camps where they can be detained until we find a Final Solution for this problem.

:agree: Got to be better than just walking up to random people in the street and hacking them to death because of your particular view of the world / religion.

[yeezus.]

are you deaf?

This isn't going anywhere. Have you got a point to make about Islam as a whole and how the religion is to blame for this atrocity? That's the impression I'm getting.

[Skanko79]

This isn't going anywhere. Have you got a point to make about Islam as a whole and how the religion is to blame for this atrocity? That's the impression I'm getting.

well seeing as the nutcase practically said that was why he done it yes. islam isnt to blame for it, its the ones that take it to extremes like these 2 doughnuts yesterday.

what do you thinks to blame? war in iraq by any chance?

[yeezus.]

well seeing as the nutcase practically said that was why he done it yes. islam isnt to blame for it, its the ones that take it to extremes like these 2 doughnuts yesterday.

what do you thinks to blame? war in iraq by any chance?

I wouldn't try and blame sectarian attacks in Glasgow on Catholicism or Protestantism...

And no, Iraq can't be used as an excuse for these sort of murders.

[magpie1892]

And no, Iraq can't be used as an excuse for these sort of murders.

There is no excuse, full stop. When the two perpetrators rushed the armed response unit, the police officer should have shot to kill. Would have done, had they not got a few questions to ask them. Hopefully they'll get their answers and the perpetrators will die in jail.

[frazeHFC]

WTF just seen the video of the guy talking to the camera while the guy is dead in the middle of the road. People just walking past him while he's wielding the knife and machete. It might sound stupid but seems as if nobody else close to them was 'in danger' as such as their 'mission' was to kill a soldier. Horrifying incident no matter what happens in their country it's never right to kill someone in such a manner as this.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not supporting the argument that you're responding to but there's a slight difference between shipping Jews and political opponents to concentration camps en masse and deporting a couple of radicals who are preaching hate and jihad.

On the original topic, turns out the victim was 25 and leaves behind a two year old child. As if it wasn't tragic enough...

Yes but where does this sort of campaign start and where does it end. Internment was a policy that was intended to take as many radical Irish Republicans out of circulation as possible and de-escalate the critical situation in NI and we all know what effect that had. The average German believed at first that the Jews were really only being deported.

The outcry on social media sites at present is absolute hyperbole and can be compared to the anti Jewish propaganda frenzy that was whipped up at the beginning of the Third Reich, the parallels are there and like I said it's a very dangerous and unpredictable path to go down.

[yeezus.]

There is no excuse, full stop. When the two perpetrators rushed the armed response unit, the police officer should have shot to kill. Would have done, had they not got a few questions to ask them. Hopefully they'll get their answers and the perpetrators will die in jail.

I agree!

[Betty Boop]

An excellent article from Glen Greenwald.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback?CMP=twt_gu

[lord bunberry]

Cowards doing it to people who they would never be able to confront man to man / face to face - A frightening feature of recent attacks by individuals who live in, and enjoy the benefits of, the tolerant country Britain is.

They tend to contribute nothing to attempts to be a cosmopolitan society but in their pursuit of the imposition of their own particular take on how the world should run they are content to resort to cowardly attacks like this to express their views.

The liberal democracy that we live in ironically allows the freedom of movement and expression that makes attacks in the name of a religion or any other cause difficult to predict and manage - it is now being exploited to breaking point and the time may well be coming where something like this classically extremist ambush will provoke an earlier rather than later materialisation of Enoch Powell's prophecy of civil war.

At some point some British people and religions who find themselves unrepresented by the inertia and accomodating statements of politicians to UK based or produced extermism and will undoubtedly respond to what is happening.

The government now is saying the same as any other one will in response to a situation like this, there will be meetings and statements but essentially no action for fear of offending or breaching perceived rights of the very perpretrators of the crimes or others who hold similar views. The less that is done the more confident they become. Having these criminals and 2000 like them on a list is not enough, it does appear like we are waiting for the crime to happen to validate the evidence - not much consolation to the victim.


I think your being quite harsh on the government and the security services in your last paragraph, it should be noted that this is the first terrorist related death in the UK since the 7/7 bombings. There has been numerous plots foiled since 7/7 but in this case it must have been almost impossible to prevent 2 lunatics from doing what they did.
There needs to be a greater effort made by people of all faiths to stop young men becoming radicalised in the first place.

[Bostonhibby]

I think your being quite harsh on the government and the security services in your last paragraph, it should be noted that this is the first terrorist related death in the UK since the 7/7 bombings. There has been numerous plots foiled since 7/7 but in this case it must have been almost impossible to prevent 2 lunatics from doing what they did.
There needs to be a greater effort made by people of all faiths to stop young men becoming radicalised in the first place.

Fair comment, especially your last point, I guess its about all the unseen work but you will get very short odds on the next attacker(s) also being known but for whatever reason not stopped.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not supporting the argument that you're responding to but there's a slight difference between shipping Jews and political opponents to concentration camps en masse and deporting a couple of radicals who are preaching hate and jihad.

On the original topic, turns out the victim was 25 and leaves behind a two year old child. As if it wasn't tragic enough...

Yes but where does this sort of campaign start and where does it end. Internment was a policy that was intended to take as many radical Irish Republicans out of circulation as possible and de-escalate the critical situation in NI and we all know what effect that had. The average German believed at first that the Jews were really only being deported.

The outcry on social media sites at present is absolute hyperbole and can be compared to the anti Jewish propaganda frenzy that was whipped up at the beginning of the Third Reich, the parallels are there and like I said it's a very dangerous and unpredictable path to go down.

[barcahibs]

First off my sympathies to the family and friends of the victim of this horrific crime.

Coming slightly from left field. The first thought I had on watching the footage of the attack is have we gone too far in our attitudes to gun control in this country?

I was at school when Dunblane happened, I remember it vividly and it had a massive effect on me. I supported the gun controls that came in in the wake of it.

Over the past few years however its been bubbling away in the back of my mind that we've made a mistake. The thing about guns is that, for perhaps the first time in history, they provide the means for the weak to confront the strong on equal terms. It allows a 60 year old woman (or in my case a fat 30 year old bloke) with a gun to have exactly the same physical strength and potential as a young fit man. Might no longer makes right.

This thought came to me again as I watched the videos which appeared to show a crowd of people standing helpless to resist in the face of two young fit men armed with machetes. I wondered why no-one had intervened - and then thought how could they have? Would I have charged in to face those guys and their machetes? Nope.

In this country we've sort of passed on our own right to defend ourselves with force to the police. In situations like that its supposed to be the police who are armed and who will intervene on our behalf. But in this situation the police took up to 20 minutes to bring armed officers to the scene - in the middle of London! How long would it take an armed officer to arrive in a less metropolitan area? If the police are unable to confront force with force should the citizens be allowed to do it themselves?

I can see the dangers - and I'm certainly not suggesting an American type solution where anyone can nip down to Asda and buy themselves a machine gun - but is there an argument for introducing some form of responsible gun ownership? Guns which are permanently linked to a single owner, which have to be stored securely, which have strictly controlled ammunition supplies (You don't need 30 bullets to defend yourself or others) which can likewise be linked to the purchaser. Guns which can only be bought in conjunction with a training course for their safe use - a licence which has to be renewed annually perhaps.

I keep coming back to the image of the crows standing passively watching this happen. Could armed citizens have been a good thing in this situation - or would we just have ended up with a 2-way range and more casualties?

A huge well done and thank you from me for the brave people (all women?) who did try and intervene.

On the religious/ethnic/foreigners go home aspect. To me one of the greatest things about being British is that here you can be anything and believe anything you want (so long of course as doing so causes no harm to others). If we mess with that then we mess with the very core of our society. Anyone who lives here and identifies themselves as British IS British. I have no truck with religion of any kind (except flying spaghetti monsterism). I don't really understand religious people. I think the world would probably be a better place without religion. But the right to believe in your own god and worship him/her/it/them in peace is something I'll go the barricades for. (and cower behind those barricades cos as previously mentioned I'm fat and asthmatic and have a note from my doctor excusing me from civil disobedience)

[The_Todd]

Yes but where does this sort of campaign start and where does it end. Internment was a policy that was intended to take as many radical Irish Republicans out of circulation as possible and de-escalate the critical situation in NI and we all know what effect that had. The average German believed at first that the Jews were really only being deported.

The outcry on social media sites at present is absolute hyperbole and can be compared to the anti Jewish propaganda frenzy that was whipped up at the beginning of the Third Reich, the parallels are there and like I said it's a very dangerous and unpredictable path to go down.

This, this and this again.

I saw some friends on Facebook "liking" photos from some "Proud to be British" type group yesterday, so I looked in the group to see what sort of things I'd find in there. Of course, I knew what I was going to see but it made me genuinely sad to read it. One guy, who blamed all of the worlds ills on "imergrunts" (his spelling, not mine) proclaimed he was thinking he was going to go to his nearest "p**i shop" to sort them out. Then there were a whole raft of bigoted comments, mostly echoed with "you speak for everyone in the UK" and "you should be prime minister".

The first thoughts that came into my head were "1930's Germany", and Farage and Griffin will be loving it.

Let's be clear, yesterdays perpetrators no more speak for the Muslim community than the KKK speak for Christianity.

[hibeedonald]

The sooner religion etc comes to an end the better.

[TomoHFC]

Bring back the death penalty

[silverhibee]

There is no excuse, full stop. When the two perpetrators rushed the armed response unit, the police officer should have shot to kill. Would have done, had they not got a few questions to ask them. Hopefully they'll get their answers and the perpetrators will die in jail.

From the video in the DM surprised they are still living, shot at close range.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-watch-shocking-video-1907772

[lyonhibs]

ive absolutely no doubt they will have been getting some kind of government handout.

:rolleyes: Right, well that is that settled then.

Cut benefits to Muslims in case they use them to buy a meat cleaver and go tonto in Woolwich High Street??

What point are you making here?

[Andy Bee]

:rolleyes: Right, well that is that settled then.

Cut benefits to Muslims in case they use them to buy a meat cleaver and go tonto in Woolwich High Street??

What point are you making here?



I'm quietly confident that's not the point he was trying to make and TBH that's a pretty distasteful attempt at point scoring, as was the references to "The Final Solution" from other posters.

All I can say is thank **** the police that arrived on the scene first had guns.

[Skanko79]

:rolleyes: Right, well that is that settled then.

Cut benefits to Muslims in case they use them to buy a meat cleaver and go tonto in Woolwich High Street??

What point are you making here?

haha!! your pointless attempts like alot of people on this thread to get someone to come out and say that all muslims are the problem here isnt going to work.

im not saying anything remotely close to that.

it has come to light that one of these twats was known to police, why not cut his benefits which im probably 90% certain he was on, lets not kid ourselves on here. cut his benefits and lock him up. problem solved.

[CropleyWasGod]

haha!! your pointless attempts like alot of people on this thread to get someone to come out and say that all muslims are the problem here isnt going to work.

im not saying anything remotely close to that.

it has come to light that one of these twats was known to police, why not cut his benefits which im probably 90% certain he was on, lets not kid ourselves on here. cut his benefits and lock him up. problem solved.

On what grounds? That he has political views that are abhorrent to most of us?

[Skanko79]

On what grounds? That he has political views that are abhorrent to most of us?

yes. if i chose to wear certain clothes to the football, i'll be stopped by the police. if im walking though a certain area on my way home from work, i could be stopped and searched by the police. if i decide to rant about my radical faith to the extreme i would expect to be locked up.

are you trying to say whats went on here is ok? instead of beating about the bush why dont you just come out with it instead of picking up on tiny points of people posts that have clearly had enough.

this tragedy could have been avoided, im sure if the police had shown the same curiosity to the killers leading up to the attacks as they do to me in the above situations this could have been stopped.

[CropleyWasGod]

yes. if i chose to wear certain clothes to the football, i'll be stopped by the police. if im walking though a certain area on my way home from work, i could be stopped and searched by the police. if i decide to rant about my radical faith to the extreme i would expect to be locked up.

are you trying to say whats went on here is ok? instead of beating about the bush why dont you just come out with it instead of picking up on tiny points of people posts that have clearly had enough.

this tragedy could have been avoided, im sure if the police had shown the same curiosity to the killers leading up to the attacks as they do to me in the above situations this could have stopped.

So what do you define as abhorrent?

To some, the Government's views are so. To some, those of the extreme left or right are. My point is, where do you draw the line of freedom to express one's views? It's been tried before, with internment and with Thatcher's ridiculous attempts to deny Sinn Fein "the oxygen of publicity". Neither did the cause of peace any good, indeed they provided the IRA with a recruitment tool and, arguably, helped to foster terrorism.

According to reports, there are over 2,000 people on "the list". I reckon the security services have done a pretty good job in keeping a lid on things, but they cannot be expected to watch everyone on that list 24 hours a day.

[Skanko79]

So what do you define as abhorrent?

To some, the Government's views are so. To some, those of the extreme left or right are. My point is, where do you draw the line of freedom to express one's views? It's been tried before, with internment and with Thatcher's ridiculous attempts to deny Sinn Fein "the oxygen of publicity". Neither did the cause of peace any good, indeed they provided the IRA with a recruitment tool and, arguably, helped to foster terrorism.

According to reports, there are over 2,000 people on "the list". I reckon the security services have done a pretty good job in keeping a lid on things, but they cannot be expected to watch everyone on that list 24 hours a day.

we see on a weekly basis allbeit mostly down south a number of people who choose to openly dismiss our way of life and culture in an overly aggresive manner. this shouldnt be allowed to happen and is quite frankly disgusting, anyone that thinks otherwise needs there head looking at.

measures have to be taken as im sure that there are far more than 2,000 people in our country that can be considered a threat. and that goes for anyone.

as i said befoe, our country has become a playground for these people to openly preach hate to the western world that feeds them. it has to stop or this kind of thing will continue to happen.

[lord bunberry]

we see on a weekly basis allbeit mostly down south a number of people who choose to openly dismiss our way of life and culture in an overly aggresive manner. this shouldnt be allowed to happen and is quite frankly disgusting, anyone that thinks otherwise needs there head looking at.

measures have to be taken as im sure that there are far more than 2,000 people in our country that can be considered a threat. and that goes for anyone.

as i said befoe, our country has become a playground for these people to openly preach hate to the western world that feeds them. it has to stop or this kind of thing will continue to happen.


The problem with locking these people up is that you turn radical thugs into heroes, which in turn will lead to more young muslims becoming radicalized.
The answer is not locking people up or taking away benefits its education

[blackpoolhibs]

The problem with locking these people up is that you turn radical thugs into heroes, which in turn will lead to more young muslims becoming radicalized.
The answer is not locking people up or taking away benefits its education

I agree locking anyone up who has a different opinion is not the way forward, but i also disagree that education is the solution. Folk who do this are not interested in eductaion, its their way or nothing, and they are way beyond changing their thoughts.

[Skanko79]

The problem with locking these people up is that you turn radical thugs into heroes, which in turn will lead to more young muslims becoming radicalized.
The answer is not locking people up or taking away benefits its education

i have to disagree with that mate. the people who openly preach the hate on the streets are seen as the heroes. lock them up/deport them, throw away the key to make an example. we should now be taking a zero tollerance approach on this kind of thing. the way australia approaches it would suit me fine.

[lord bunberry]

I agree locking anyone up who has a different opinion is not the way forward, but i also disagree that education is the solution. Folk who do this are not interested in eductaion, its their way or nothing, and they are way beyond changing their thoughts.

But there must be a point in these people's lives when they weren't radicalized, it's probably to late for some of them but we need to be intervening before they become radicalized.

[steakbake]

we see on a weekly basis allbeit mostly down south a number of people who choose to openly dismiss our way of life and culture in an overly aggresive manner. this shouldnt be allowed to happen and is quite frankly disgusting, anyone that thinks otherwise needs there head looking at.

measures have to be taken as im sure that there are far more than 2,000 people in our country that can be considered a threat. and that goes for anyone.

as i said befoe, our country has become a playground for these people to openly preach hate to the western world that feeds them. it has to stop or this kind of thing will continue to happen.

How do you suggest we stop becoming a playground for "these people"? The entire world is a playground in which we play very dangerous games as a country. In some cases, we create the trouble that finds us.

In a strange way, one of these guys was right in what he was saying. We need to stop our militarism. We can't claim the moral high-ground and superiority of our values while at the same time, setting off on the kind of fruitless and expansionist adventures abroad that we've been engaged in for many years, remotely dropping bombs on people from the safety of our drones, imposing our version of freedom by force and getting involved in the dirty politics in other people's back yards. Yes, there's supporting our troops, but how about supporting them by not putting them into needless and unwinnable conflicts?

We stop selling arms to and becoming financially dependent on brutal dictators - that only compels us to support unpopular regimes that suppress their people in order to keep themselves in power and ferment the grievances that make us a target. We pursue justice in the world, not chicanery or gunboat diplomacy. Don't give people an excuse by embroiling ourselves in affairs that are none of our concern, though bizarrely are often affairs that we have historically contributed to coming about. We go on about our values and how these kind of attacks are an assault on them - where are our values when it comes to how we as a people conduct ourselves in the world?

Politicians tell us that we're in Afghanistan to protect the people on the streets of Britain from terrorism, yet Afghanistan and Iraq are the self same issues which extremists use as their cause and their reason. We invaded Iraq without a UN mandate to do so, sidelining the views of the rest of the world as inconvenient to our 'special relationship' and to paraphrase the late Robin Cook (I think it was), by helping the US "turn unprecedented global support and sympathy after September 11th, into outrage and hostility". We invaded Afghanistan and have thrown out one mob of unelected self-serving hypocrites with another who was elected in a facade of a democratic process. In pursuing a militaristic foreign policy, we contribute to real and in some cases justified resentment that there exists towards us overseas. That resentment doesn't excuse these lads, but it's given them a cause that they and many thousands of others like them are willing to kill and be killed for. There is no two ways about it.

[Scouse Hibee]

But there must be a point in these people's lives when they weren't radicalized, it's probably to late for some of them but we need to be intervening before they become radicalized.

An impossible task IMO.

[Skanko79]

How do you suggest we stop becoming a playground for "these people"? The entire world is a playground in which we play very dangerous games as a country. In some cases, we create the trouble that finds us.

In a strange way, one of these guys was right in what he was saying. We need to stop our militarism. We can't claim the moral high-ground and superiority of our values while at the same time, setting off on the kind of fruitless and expansionist adventures abroad that we've been engaged in for many years, remotely dropping bombs on people from the safety of our drones, imposing our version of freedom by force and getting involved in the dirty politics in other people's back yards. Yes, there's supporting our troops, but how about supporting them by not putting them into needless and unwinnable conflicts?

We stop selling arms to and becoming financially dependent on brutal dictators - that only compels us to support unpopular regimes that suppress their people in order to keep themselves in power and ferment the grievances that make us a target. We pursue justice in the world, not chicanery or gunboat diplomacy. Don't give people an excuse by embroiling ourselves in affairs that are none of our concern, though bizarrely are often affairs that we have historically contributed to coming about. We go on about our values and how these kind of attacks are an assault on them - where are our values when it comes to how we as a people conduct ourselves in the world?

Politicians tell us that we're in Afghanistan to protect the people on the streets of Britain from terrorism, yet Afghanistan and Iraq are the self same issues which extremists use as their cause and their reason. We invaded Iraq without a UN mandate to do so, sidelining the views of the rest of the world as inconvenient to our 'special relationship' and to paraphrase the late Robin Cook (I think it was), by helping the US "turn unprecedented global support and sympathy after September 11th, into outrage and hostility". We invaded Afghanistan and have thrown out one mob of unelected self-serving hypocrites with another who was elected in a facade of a democratic process. In pursuing a militaristic foreign policy, we contribute to real and in some cases justified resentment that there exists towards us overseas. That resentment doesn't excuse these lads, but it's given them a cause that they and many thousands of others like them are willing to kill and be killed for. There is no two ways about it.

The motives of the killers have nothing to do with our country though. it boils down to their over active so called faith in their religion, they have taken it to the extreme and punished a completely innocent man. when things like this and 7/7 are happening on our doorstep it then becomes our business whether we like it or not. i have freinds and family and london, and freinds and family in the armed forces, theres no way they deserve to die in their own country simply because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Other countrys simply dont tolerate this kind of thing, why should we?

i dont really want to get into a discussion regarding our occupations in the middle east to be honest because thats not the points im making. im talking about here, our home.

one majot thing people fail to realise about it though is that far more innocent people died in iraq under the hussein regime than have done since we got involved so i dont know where your going with that really.

[lord bunberry]

[/B]An impossible task IMO.

I don't see any alternative, we can't just throw everyone on jail or deport them

[Skanko79]

I don't see any alternative, we can't just throw everyone on jail or deport them

just leave them to get on with it then?

[Sylar]

we see on a weekly basis allbeit mostly down south a number of people who choose to openly dismiss our way of life and culture in an overly aggresive manner. this shouldnt be allowed to happen and is quite frankly disgusting, anyone that thinks otherwise needs there head looking at.

measures have to be taken as im sure that there are far more than 2,000 people in our country that can be considered a threat. and that goes for anyone.

as i said befoe, our country has become a playground for these people to openly preach hate to the western world that feeds them. it has to stop or this kind of thing will continue to happen.

You're probably not wrong with your claim that "weekly dismissal of our way of life and culture in an aggresive (sic) manner" but it has to be considered relative to other factors.

Many of the large urban and suburban areas in England are a lot more diverse and multicultural than respective areas of Scotland so of course you're going to get a melting pot of religions, nationalities, class and political ideals - therefore, isn't it entirely expected that you're going to get more vocal representation from minority views down here. I agree, extremism needs nipped in the bud quite rapidly but I've yet to hear a balanced, well thought out and easily applicable method as to how that can implemented without bordering on prejudicial judgement of all followers of Islam*.

*Or indeed other extreme vocalisation of opinions from a wide range of race, political, religious, cultural or class issues.

[lord bunberry]

just leave them to get on with it then?

I'm not suggesting that at all, anyone who has broken the law should be punished or deported but that won't solve the problem

[Skanko79]

You're probably not wrong with your claim that "weekly dismissal of our way of life and culture in an aggresive (sic) manner" but it has to be considered relative to other factors.

Many of the large urban and suburban areas in England are a lot more diverse and multicultural than respective areas of Scotland so of course you're going to get a melting pot of religions, nationalities, class and political ideals - therefore, isn't it entirely expected that you're going to get more vocal representation from minority views down here. I agree, extremism needs nipped in the bud quite rapidly but I've yet to hear a balanced, well thought out and easily applicable method as to how that can implemented without bordering on prejudicial judgement of all followers of Islam*.

*Or indeed other extreme vocalisation of opinions from a wide range of race, political, religious, cultural or class issues.

i couldnt agree more.

i also think its time we did have something in place to knock this on the head once and for all.

[hibsbollah]

just leave them to get on with it then?

Noones saying that, you seem to be angrily flying into folk misconstruing what theyre saying.

What new specific powers do you want to give the state? Extra powers to access personal online activity, like John Reid suggested less than 24 hours after the murder? Problem being, who gets access to that information? Do you trust the police and current AND future governments to know everything about everyone? And do you want to pay the taxes that would fund it? Do you get the intelligence services to do profiling on middle eastern/Arabs/Pakistani types? Oops this woolwich guy was afro caribbean. Well what about all ethnic minorities then? Whoops, the shoe bomber was white. What about all muslims? Well, every muslim group imaginable has come out and condemned the murder and those like it. Youd be criminalising the vast majority of peaceful people from that community. Well, profile and target all foreigners? Whoops, the 7/7 bombers were all British. Political profiling? Well I disagree with the policies of the Israeli state, are you going to put ME under surveillance? Stop them getting hold of weapons? Ban machetes and cleavers and youre inconveniencing gardeners and chefs.

Its not easy.

[Skanko79]

Noones saying that, you seem to be angrily flying into folk misconstruing what theyre saying.

What new specific powers do you want to give the state? Extra powers to access personal online activity, like John Reid suggested less than 24 hours after the murder? Problem being, who gets access to that information? Do you trust the police and current AND future governments to know everything about everyone? And do you want to pay the taxes that would fund it? Do you get the intelligence services to do profiling on middle eastern/Arabs/Pakistani types? Oops this woolwich guy was afro caribbean. Well what about all ethnic minorities then? Whoops, the shoe bomber was white. What about all muslims? Well, every muslim group imaginable has come out and condemned the murder and those like it. Youd be criminalising the vast majority of peaceful people from that community. Well, profile and target all foreigners? Whoops, the 7/7 bombers were all British. Political profiling? Well I disagree with the policies of the Israeli state, are you going to put ME under surveillance? Stop them getting hold of weapons? Ban machetes and cleavers and youre inconveniencing gardeners and chefs.

Its not easy.

yes, id much rather pay taxes to fund something like that than paying taxes that go towards helping these people live.

you like many others on this thread really seem to be missing the main point here and are trying a wee bit to hard to be a bit different with your views so i'll let you and your wee hareem crack on with that. good luck.

[Phil D. Rolls]

i have to disagree with that mate. the people who openly preach the hate on the streets are seen as the heroes. lock them up/deport them, throw away the key to make an example. we should now be taking a zero tollerance approach on this kind of thing. the way australia approaches it would suit me fine.


The motives of the killers have nothing to do with our country though. it boils down to their over active so called faith in their religion, they have taken it to the extreme and punished a completely innocent man. when things like this and 7/7 are happening on our doorstep it then becomes our business whether we like it or not. i have freinds and family and london, and freinds and family in the armed forces, theres no way they deserve to die in their own country simply because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Other countrys simply dont tolerate this kind of thing, why should we?

i dont really want to get into a discussion regarding our occupations in the middle east to be honest because thats not the points im making. im talking about here, our home.

one majot thing people fail to realise about it though is that far more innocent people died in iraq under the hussein regime than have done since we got involved so i dont know where your going with that really.

I'm listening - could you convince me further by backing up this with independent sources? At the moment, I only have your word for it.

It seems to me, that your response to any question is "well, it just is, right", "I don't want to talk about it", or "what would you do".

Some of the things you are advocating are radical moves away from the way we do things in "our" country. As a citizen of that country, I would like to be reassured that they won't get us in a bigger mess, and give us less freedom, instead of protecting it.

You've had more than a fair hearing, and a lot of what you are saying is actually pretty repulsive. I think it's time you upped your game and engaged on the level of the people you are trying to persuade. Otherwise, I think you should just admit that you are talking from your own very narrow perspective.

I certainly don't want the UK to be anything like Australia. A country that has a history of institutionalised racism. I thnk if that is the place where so many Brtitish people feel their values lie, then maybe - like Islamic radicals, they should just go there.

Leave the grown up stuff of living in a modern, multi racial, tolerant society, to those that have the maturity and courage to make it work. There's plenty of people who are not welcome here, top of the list are the bullies that use faith, ethnicity and tribalism to achieve their own ends.

I didn't mention facism once.

[hibsbollah]

you like many others on this thread really seem to be missing the main point here and are trying a wee bit to hard to be a bit different with your views so i'll let you and your wee hareem crack on with that. good luck.

Classy response :rolleyes:

[Skanko79]

Classy response :rolleyes:

to me in a roundabout way you are trying to justify it. i find that disgusting. being honest id rather not even converse with someone allbeit on a forum so yeah, on you go.

[Phil D. Rolls]

to me in a roundabout way you are trying to justify it. i find that disgusting. being honest id rather not even converse with someone allbeit on a forum so yeah, on you go.

You are something else.

[Skanko79]

I'm listening - could you convince me further by backing up this with independent sources? At the moment, I only have your word for it.

It seems to me, that your response to any question is "well, it just is, right", "I don't want to talk about it", or "what would you do".

Some of the things you are advocating are radical moves away from the way we do things in "our" country. As a citizen of that country, I would like to be reassured that they won't get us in a bigger mess, and give us less freedom, instead of protecting it.

You've had more than a fair hearing, and a lot of what you are saying is actually pretty repulsive. I think it's time you upped your game and engaged on the level of the people you are trying to persuade. Otherwise, I think you should just admit that you are talking from your own very narrow perspective.

I certainly don't want the UK to be anything like Australia. A country that has a history of institutionalised racism. I thnk if that is the place where so many Brtitish people feel their values lie, then maybe - like Islamic radicals, they should just go there.

Leave the grown up stuff of living in a modern, multi racial, tolerant society, to those that have the maturity and courage to make it work. There's plenty of people who are not welcome here, top of the list are the bullies that use faith, ethnicity and tribalism to achieve their own ends.

I didn't mention facism once.

your talking complete *****.

in my eyes and many others reading this it just looks like your trying to justify what happened. ive got the bottle to say it they dont.

[Phil D. Rolls]

your talking complete *****.

in my eyes and many others reading this it just looks like your trying to justify what happened. ive got the bottle to say it they dont.

Sorry, can you answer my question, or are you just going to resort to personal insults?

I will reassure you that I am not trying to justify the murder of the soldier.

What I want you to do is justify the retaliation you and "many others reading this" advocate. Will it solve the problem? So far you haven't given any objective, or tested evidence, merely your own opinion.

An opinion that is looking increasingly ill informed every time you try to bully your way out of questions you don't want to answer.

I am less scared of Islamic terrorists, something our state seems to be doing a very good job of controlling, than people like you. You are all mouth about how to fix things - but cannot win trust, because you can't answer the follow up questions.

Time and again, people have given you examples of how your solutions have been tried and failed. Time and again, people have told you that they are happy with the way that the security forces are dealing with the problem.

Yet, your response is nothing short of nasty, personal, and bullying. I think you have your own agenda, and I don't think it is far removed from those parties that espouse facist values.

In my opinion, you do not speak for most British people, you adopting British values makes a mockery of them.

[Skanko79]

Sorry, can you answer my question, or are you just going to resort to personal insults?

I will reassure you that I am not trying to justify the murder of the soldier.

What I want you to do is justify the retaliation you and "many others reading this" advocate. Will it solve the problem? So far you haven't given any objective, or tested evidence, merely your own opinion.

An opinion that is looking increasingly ill informed every time you try to bully your way out of questions you don't want to answer.

I am less scared of Islamic terrorists, something our state seems to be doing a very good job of controlling, than people like you. You are all mouth about how to fix things - but cannot win trust, because you can't answer the follow up questions.

Time and again, people have given you examples of how your solutions have been tried and failed. Time and again, people have told you that they are happy with the way that the security forces are dealing with the problem.

Yet, your response is nothing short of nasty, personal, and bullying. I think you have your own agenda, and I don't think it is far removed from those parties that espouse facist values.

In my opinion, you do not speak for most British people, you adopting British values makes a mockery of them.

youve chosen to come on the thread where people are paying their respects and are obvioussly a wee bit upset and angry at whats happened. youve chosen to come on here and oppose anyone that feels that way with your long winded and boring responses.

i'll leave you to it, i wont be answering any of your two bob pointless questions.

id like to see you sit in front of the murdered mans family and explain to them what you are explaining to me.

[HNA6]

Think there are one or two getting their knickers in a bit of a twist on here ..think its time to cut out the name calling & petty point scoring folks & get back on topic ..:aok:

[Sylar]

to me in a roundabout way you are trying to justify it. i find that disgusting. being honest id rather not even converse with someone allbeit on a forum so yeah, on you go.

Sorry but he's doing nothing of the sort.

He's simply speaking out against prejudicial and discriminatory targeting of an unquantifiable minority which transcends race, religion, nationality or political ideology.

"They" are very hard to target when "they" can't be succinctly defined, despite the protestations of an ignorant public who seem hell bent on pointing the finger at a sect of society which neither they nor the state can pigeon-hole.

[Skanko79]

Sorry but he's doing nothing of the sort.

He's simply speaking out against prejudicial and discriminatory targeting of an unquantifiable minority which transcends race, religion, nationality or political ideology.

"They" are very hard to target when "they" can't be succinctly defined, despite the protestations of an ignorant public who seem hell bent on pointing the finger at a sect of society which neither they nor the state can pigeon-hole.


whats that got to do with 2 crazed lunatics butchering a completely innocent man for being a soldier?

stick to the topic. start a new thread if you want to talk about that.

[HNA6]

whats that got to do with 2 crazed lunatics butchering a completely innocent man for being a soldier?

stick to the topic. start a new thread if you want to talk about that.Think you need to cool yer jets a wee bit ..you seem to be getting a bit heated up on this thread...:aok:

[DaveF]

I see Anjem Choudary has been given more air time.....

Mr Choudary appeared on Newsnight on Thursday and said Mr Adebolajo had made comments that "I think not many Muslims can disagree with".

The radical Islamist preacher said he was "shocked" by what had happened. He also said: "One man killed in the street does not equate to the hundreds and thousands and millions, in fact, who've been slaughtered by the British and American foreign policy."

Don't think too many people will bother their arse if he's the next body found in the street.

[Skanko79]

Think there are one or two getting their knickers in a bit of a twist on here ..think its time to cut out the name calling & petty point scoring folks & get back on topic ..:aok:

i just pm'd another admin and asked him to delete my account. i dont want to be part of a forum that see's what these baloons are saying is acceptable.

clearly you can see in a roundabout way they are trying to justify what happened.

you should be ashamed to allow that to go on in this forum.

[CropleyWasGod]

i just pm'd another admin and asked him to delete my account. i dont want to be part of a forum that see's what these baloons are saying is acceptable.

clearly you can see in a roundabout way they are trying to justify what happened.

you should be ashamed to allow that to go on in this forum.

I don't see anyone here trying to justify what has happened.

What I do see here is a debate on the issues. You and I have different views, that much is clear, and we are both entitled to them. However, part of debate is accepting that others are entitled to their view, and to respect that.

[HNA6]

i just pm'd another admin and asked him to delete my account. i dont want to be part of a forum that see's what these baloons are saying is acceptable.

clearly you can see in a roundabout way they are trying to justify what happened.

you should be ashamed to allow that to go on in this forum.Think you need to go away & have a lie doon ...Im quite sure Admins know what is right & what is wrong on these forums, we dont need you to tell us how to run the place.

[Skanko79]

Think you need to go away & have a lie doon ...Im quite sure Admins know what is right & what is wrong on these forums, we dont need you to tell us how to run the place.

im not. just delete my account. your all full of *****.

[steakbake]

I wasn't expecting that, I have to say. Mental. Absolutely mental.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I see Anjem Choudary has been given more air time.....

Mr Choudary appeared on Newsnight on Thursday and said Mr Adebolajo had made comments that "I think not many Muslims can disagree with".

The radical Islamist preacher said he was "shocked" by what had happened. He also said: "One man killed in the street does not equate to the hundreds and thousands and millions, in fact, who've been slaughtered by the British and American foreign policy."

Don't think too many people will bother their arse if he's the next body found in the street.

In ice hockey, they have a player in the team that is called "the goon". They are rubbish at playing the game, their sole purpose is to start fights, get players binned, and generally shake the nerve of the opposition. When people are heated up they can't think straight.

Their one tactic is to get people fighting, and then emerge as the protector of that group. I wouldn't be surprised if goons operate on forums like this, overseen by a more "balanced" radical, who will console people who think the goon has been picked on.

Choudray is also a goon.

I think it is obvious that are people who want this to escalate into something bigger. The dead give away is the inflammatory and confrontational language they use.

No doubt they will strike a chord with the most disillusioned, and personally frustrated amongst their constituency. One thing they shy away from is reasoned debate, as that is where they are most likely to be exposed for the fools they are.

[silverhibee]

I see Anjem Choudary has been given more air time.....

Mr Choudary appeared on Newsnight on Thursday and said Mr Adebolajo had made comments that "I think not many Muslims can disagree with".

The radical Islamist preacher said he was "shocked" by what had happened. He also said: "One man killed in the street does not equate to the hundreds and thousands and millions, in fact, who've been slaughtered by the British and American foreign policy."

Don't think too many people will bother their arse if he's the next body found in the street.


Watched this last night, what a horrible creature of a person, as you say why do TV/radio give people like this any air time, he didn't seem to happy when he was pulled up about the amount of benefits he gets from this country and that it was more than what the soldier who was killed earned in a year.

[Beefster]

I see Anjem Choudary has been given more air time.....

Mr Choudary appeared on Newsnight on Thursday and said Mr Adebolajo had made comments that "I think not many Muslims can disagree with".

The radical Islamist preacher said he was "shocked" by what had happened. He also said: "One man killed in the street does not equate to the hundreds and thousands and millions, in fact, who've been slaughtered by the British and American foreign policy."

Don't think too many people will bother their arse if he's the next body found in the street.

Choudary is like a Muslim version of Tommy Robinson. A figure who deserves to be viewed as ridiculous but is too dangerous to do so.

Incidentally, the BBC don't give airtime to Nick Griffin and the aforementioned Robinson but relatively frequently feature Choudary on the likes of Newsnight and other news-related programmes. They need to cut it out.

[Betty Boop]

Choudary is like a Muslim version of Tommy Robinson. A figure who deserves to be viewed as ridiculous but is too dangerous to do so.

Incidentally, the BBC don't give airtime to Nick Griffin and the aforementioned Robinson but relatively frequently feature Choudary on the likes of Newsnight and other news-related programmes. They need to cut it out.

I can't recall having seen Griffin much on the BBC (apart from Question Time), however Robinson has been on Newsnight a few times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCzCEb1k__8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RdJ4dpRQeE

[CropleyWasGod]

Choudary is like a Muslim version of Tommy Robinson. A figure who deserves to be viewed as ridiculous but is too dangerous to do so.

Incidentally, the BBC don't give airtime to Nick Griffin and the aforementioned Robinson but relatively frequently feature Choudary on the likes of Newsnight and other news-related programmes. They need to cut it out.

Difficult one.

Sometimes I think the best way to show nutters up for what they are is to allow them to talk.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I can't recall having seen Griffin much on the BBC (apart from Question Time), however Robinson has been on Newsnight a few times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCzCEb1k__8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RdJ4dpRQeE

This is a good one, the BNP seem to think Nick got the better of Paxo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFkWvw3Xvgk

Here he is on Andew Marr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvtqk2E_LwE

It's the usual story, the minute anyone gets the better of them, they play the underdog card. That's why they appeal to those who feel their views are not heard. They are heard, they are just dismissed because there is no foundation to them.

[LeighLoyal]

Muslim riots going on in five Swedish cities just now. I blame EDL.

[Betty Boop]

Muslim riots going on in five Swedish cities just now. I blame EDL.

What evidence is there of 'Muslim riots' ? :confused:

[LeighLoyal]

What evidence is there of 'Muslim riots' ? :confused:




They are Muslim youth: Somali's, Arabs, Turks, and they are rioting in Sweden, or do you think it's a Swedish riot over last weeks Eurovision entry? :confused:

[Big Ed]

They are Muslim youth: Somali's, Arabs, Turks, and they are rioting in Sweden, or do you think it's a Swedish riot over last weeks Eurovision entry? :confused:

Why are they rioting?

[hibsbollah]

They are Muslim youth: Somali's, Arabs, Turks, and they are rioting in Sweden, or do you think it's a Swedish riot over last weeks Eurovision entry? :confused:

The BBC is reporting that the riots were sparked by the shooting a 69 year old man, but the rioters are calling for jobs in their neighbourhoods. 'islamic sentiment not a feature of the demonstrations'. Its about poverty.


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664835

[Phil D. Rolls]

Muslim riots going on in five Swedish cities just now. I blame EDL.

What's your point?

[yeezus.]

Difficult one.

Sometimes I think the best way to show nutters up for what they are is to allow them to talk.

Choudary must be loving the attention he is getting at the moment. I don't like seeing him or Tommy Robinson/Stephen Lennon on the BBC but it would be wrong to completely ignore them.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Zoo keeper eaten by tiger, no Muslims involved.

[Betty Boop]

They are Muslim youth: Somali's, Arabs, Turks, and they are rioting in Sweden, or do you think it's a Swedish riot over last weeks Eurovision entry? :confused:

No need to be a smart arse . There is no evidence that these are 'Muslim' riots, and I've yet to hear them being described as such, apart from of course you. Why do you keep mentioning the EDL ?

[Jonnyboy]

No need to be a smart arse . There is no evidence that these are 'Muslim' riots, and I've yet to hear them being described as such, apart from of course you. Why do you keep mentioning the EDL ?

Indeed but this one has form for such behaviour

[LeighLoyal]

Choudary must be loving the attention he is getting at the moment. I don't like seeing him or Tommy Robinson/Stephen Lennon on the BBC but it would be wrong to completely ignore them.


They don't show Robinson because they are afraid of inciting Muslim violence, very simple, they did the same with the cartoon thing - terrified to offend Muslims.


Robinson's response to the Woolwich murder. The unpalatable fact is aside from hostility directed at him and some of the thuggish elements within his organisation, the message he carries is worth pulling the head from the sand for and at least listening to. He's actually a freedom fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxdwLDHlm6s

[Big Ed]

He's actually a freedom fighter.

Is that a euphemism?

[Phil D. Rolls]

They don't show Robinson because they are afraid of inciting Muslim violence, very simple, they did the same with the cartoon thing - terrified to offend Muslims.


Robinson's response to the Woolwich murder. The unpalatable fact is aside from hostility directed at him and some of the thuggish elements within his organisation, the message he carries is worth pulling the head from the sand for and at least listening to. He's actually a freedom fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxdwLDHlm6s

OH that's OK then.

There is no place for fascism in the UK. Despite decades of trying to organise on diverse issues such as the Jews, the Irish, Blacks, Europeans, the British people reject them time and again.

[HNA6]

Muslim riots going on in five Swedish cities just now. I blame EDL.Your Phishing seems to have hooked a few ..it aint gone un-noticed though, not just on this forum but others..carry on & you will be phishing in other waters ..:aok:

[yeezus.]

They don't show Robinson because they are afraid of inciting Muslim violence, very simple, they did the same with the cartoon thing - terrified to offend Muslims.


Robinson's response to the Woolwich murder. The unpalatable fact is aside from hostility directed at him and some of the thuggish elements within his organisation, the message he carries is worth pulling the head from the sand for and at least listening to. He's actually a freedom fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxdwLDHlm6s

Stephen Lennon/Tommy Robinson is not a freedom fighter. He has admitted to attending BNP meetings in the past which doesn't surprise me one bit. I condemn the murder of Lee Rigby as do the vast majority of Muslims.

Robinson has been on Newsnight and the Big Questions, that was enough.

[Pete]

Zoo keeper eaten by tiger, no Muslims involved.

It was a Bengal tiger. Odds are pretty high?

[joe breezy]

OH that's OK then.

There is no place for fascism in the UK. Despite decades of trying to organise on diverse issues such as the Jews, the Irish, Blacks, Europeans, the British people reject them time and again.

I have to laugh when people who point out the dangers of Islam are called Fascist.

Islam is Fascism in another form and if you argue with that you don't know what Fascism is.

Fascism is about the power of the state being more important than individual freedoms.

Islam is about submission to God over the rights of the individual.

I have no sympathy with EDL reactionaries and I support people's right to believe what they want.

However, whilst there are lots of guidelines in the Quran that are peaceful and could be called 'good' there's a lot of stuff that if taken literally is very dangerous.

Same with the bible of course but fortunately the number of people taking that literally in liberal atheist Europe has decreased.

[hibsbollah]

I have to laugh when people who point out the dangers of Islam are called Fascist.

Islam is Fascism in another form and if you argue with that you don't know what fascism is.

People aren't calling the EDL fascist because the EDL are 'pointing out the dangers of Islam':rolleyes: they're calling them fascist because they beat people up in the street, and try to burn down mosques.

The second thing you've said is just nonsense.

[YehButNoBut]

Good article by Russell Brand on Woolwich

http://www.russellbrand.tv/2013/05/woolwich/

Woolwich

May 25th, 2013

The news cycle moves so quickly now that often we learn of an event through other people’s reaction to it. So it was when I arrived in Los Angeles to find my twitter feed contorted with posts of fear and confusion.

I caught up with the sad malice in Woolwich and felt compelled to tweet in casual defense of the Muslim community who were being haphazardly condemned by a few people on my time line. Perhaps a bit glibly (but what isn’t glib in 140 characters) I put “That bloke is a nut. A nut who happens to be Muslim. Blaming Muslims for this is like blaming Hitler’s moustache for the Holocaust”.

As an analogy it is imperfect but I was frightened by how negative and incendiary the mood felt and I rushed. I’m not proposing we sit around trying to summons up cute analogies when Lee Rigby has lost his life in horrific circumstances I simply feel that it is important that our reaction is measured. Something about the arbitrary brutality, the humdrum high-street setting, the cool rhetoric of the blood stained murderer evoke a powerful and inherently irrational response. When I first heard the word “beheading” I felt the atavistic grumble that we all feel. This is inhumane, taboo, not a result of passion but of malice, ritualistic. “If this is happening to guiltless men on our streets it could happen to me” I thought.

Then I watched the mobile phone clip. In spite of his dispassionate intoning the subject is not rational, of course he’s not rational, he’s just murdered a stranger in the street, he says, because of a book.

In my view that man is severely mentally ill and has found a convenient conduit for his insanity, in this case the Quran. In the case of another mentally ill and desperate man, Mark Chapman, it was A Catcher In The Rye. This was the nominated text for his rationalisation of the murder of John Lennon. I’ve read that book and I’ve read some of the Quran and nothing in either of them has compelled me to do violence. Perhaps this is because I lack the other necessary ingredients for extreme anti social behaviour; mental illness and isolation; either economic, social or both.

After my Hitler tweet I got involved in a bit of back and forth with a few people who said stuff like “the murderer said himself he did it for Islam”. Although I wouldn’t dismiss what he’s saying entirely I think he forfeited the right to have his views received unthinkingly when he murdered a stranger in the street. Someone else regarding my tweet said “Hitler’s moustache didn’t invent an ideology that sanctions murder”. That is thankfully true but Islam when practiced by normal people is not an advocacy for violence. “People all over the world are killing in the name of Islam” someone added. This is the most tricky bit to understand. What I think is that all over our country, all over our planet there are huge numbers of people who feel alienated and sometimes victimised by the privileged and the powerful, whether that’s rich people, powerful corporations or occupying nations. They feel that their interests are not being represented and, in many cases, know that their friends and families are being murdered by foreign soldiers. I suppose people like that may look to their indigenous theology for validation and to sanctify their, to some degree understandable, feelings of rage.

Comparable, I suppose to the way that homophobes feel a prejudicial pang in their tummies then look to the bible to see if there’s anything in there to justify it. There is, a piddling little bit in Leviticus. The main narrative thrust of The Bible though, like most spiritual texts, including the Quran is; be nice to each other because we’re all the same.

When some football fans smash up shops and beat each other up that isn’t because of football or football clubs. It’s because loads of white, working class men have been culturally neglected and their powerful tribal instincts end up getting sloshed about in riotous lager carnivals. I love football, I love West Ham, I’ve never been involved in football violence because I don’t feel that it’s my only access to social power. Also I’m not that hard and I’m worried I’d get my head kicked in down the New Den.

What the English Defence League and other angry, confused people are doing and advocating now, violence against mosques, Muslims, proliferation of hateful rhetoric is exactly what that poor, sick, murderous man, blood soaked on a peaceful street, was hoping for in his desperate, muddled mind.

The extremists on both sides have a shared agenda; cause division, distrust, anger and violence. Both sides have the same intention. We cannot allow them to distort our perception.

The establishment too is relatively happy when different groups of desperate people point the finger at each other because it prevents blame being correctly directed at them. Whenever we are looking for the solution to a problem we must identify who has power. By power I mean influence and money. The answer is not for us to move further from one another, crouched in opposing fortresses constructed from vindictive words. We need now to move closer to one another, to understand one another. If we can take anything heartening from this dreadful attack it is of course the actions of the three women, it’s always women, that boldly guarded Lee Rigby’s body as he lay needlessly murdered. These women looked beyond the fear and chaos and desperation and attuned instead to a higher code.

One of virtue, integrity and strength.

To truly demonstrate defiance in the face of this sad violence, we must be loving and compassionate to one another. Let’s look beyond our superficial and fleeting differences. The murderers want angry patriots to desecrate mosques and perpetuate violence. How futile their actions seem if we instead leave flowers at each other’s places of worship. Let’s reach out in the spirit of love and humanity and connect to one another, perhaps we will then see what is really behind this conflict, this division, this hatred and make that our focus.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I have to laugh when people who point out the dangers of Islam are called Fascist.

Islam is Fascism in another form and if you argue with that you don't know what Fascism is.

Fascism is about the power of the state being more important than individual freedoms.

Islam is about submission to God over the rights of the individual.

I have no sympathy with EDL reactionaries and I support people's right to believe what they want.

However, whilst there are lots of guidelines in the Quran that are peaceful and could be called 'good' there's a lot of stuff that if taken literally is very dangerous.

Same with the bible of course but fortunately the number of people taking that literally in liberal atheist Europe has decreased.

Sorry, your definition of fascism is at odds with most of the things I have read. When a fascist criticises Islam they are a fascist,

At the end of the day, all societies have laws that might go against the wishes or aims of people within

[joe breezy]

I hate the EDL - they're idiots - I don't think they're fascists as Fascist is a term bandied about without really understanding what it means.

It has its roots in Italy and although it's abhorrent it is a doctrine, which I don't believe the idiots in the EDL are even intelligent enough to understand.

Fascism is a doctrine I hate as it is against personal liberty but Islam has similarities to Fascism as that too is against personal liberty as it preaches absolute submission to a powerful god.

That's all - I'm not for any EDL or racist crap but I am an atheist with a dislike for dictatorial religions.

[Beefster]

Good article by Andrew Gilligan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10080864/Woolwich-attack-Lone-wolves-who-run-with-the-pack.html

[LeighLoyal]

Caught Robinson's speech in Newcastle, the guy is a brilliant orator, or demagogue if you're a light sleeper, but he makes a powerful and persuasive case for change in countering Islamic militancy. The alternative seems to be do nothing and let political Islam spread like bacterium and churn out more terrorists that we may or may not stop before they commit another atrocity. Freedom has to come with conditions.

[lEXO]

They don't show Robinson because they are afraid of inciting Muslim violence, very simple, they did the same with the cartoon thing - terrified to offend Muslims.


Robinson's response to the Woolwich murder. The unpalatable fact is aside from hostility directed at him and some of the thuggish elements within his organisation, the message he carries is worth pulling the head from the sand for and at least listening to. He's actually a freedom fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxdwLDHlm6sHe,s an idiot.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Caught Robinson's speech in Newcastle, the guy is a brilliant orator, or demagogue if you're a light sleeper, but he makes a powerful and persuasive case for change in countering Islamic militancy. The alternative seems to be do nothing and let political Islam spread like bacterium and churn out more terrorists that we may or may not stop before they commit another atrocity. Freedom has to come with conditions.

I don't like the sound of the conditions you and your ilk are proposing. Do the rest of us get a say, or do we just have to accept it without protest?

Freedom is unconditional.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I hate the EDL - they're idiots - I don't think they're fascists as Fascist is a term bandied about without really understanding what it means.

It has its roots in Italy and although it's abhorrent it is a doctrine, which I don't believe the idiots in the EDL are even intelligent enough to understand.

Fascism is a doctrine I hate as it is against personal liberty but Islam has similarities to Fascism as that too is against personal liberty as it preaches absolute submission to a powerful god.

That's all - I'm not for any EDL or racist crap but I am an atheist with a dislike for dictatorial religions.

Fascism has existed in many guises, since Mussolini kicked it all off in the 20s. Spain, Germany, and several South American countries have all been governed by fascists.

I hear what you are saying, that religion can take away personal freedom as well. Whereas religions use God as the tool to keep people under control, fascists use race, and loyalty to their mother country to control people.

The EDL are fascists because they demand rights of the British people, over immigrants. They make up lies about immigrants stealing jobs, benefits, and social housing.

Time and again they talk about British people's rights, without being able to say what being British is.

[Sylar]

Caught Robinson's speech in Newcastle, the guy is a brilliant orator, or demagogue if you're a light sleeper, but he makes a powerful and persuasive case for change in countering Islamic militancy. The alternative seems to be do nothing and let political Islam spread like bacterium and churn out more terrorists that we may or may not stop before they commit another atrocity. Freedom has to come with conditions.

This level of intolerance and ignorance is the reason that organisations such as the English Defence League continue to gain membership and support.

Your uninformed views are every bit as abhorrent as those demonstrated by extreme Islamic doctrine and negating extreme views cuts both ways.

You also have 2 very peculiar notions - 1) what constitutes as a good orator and 2) what constitutes as universal "freedom".

[The_Todd]

Caught Robinson's speech in Newcastle, the guy is a brilliant orator, or demagogue if you're a light sleeper, but he makes a powerful and persuasive case for change in countering Islamic militancy. The alternative seems to be do nothing and let political Islam spread like bacterium and churn out more terrorists that we may or may not stop before they commit another atrocity. Freedom has to come with conditions.

If people can't see the parallels between this and the 1930s then they're blind.

[Jonnyboy]

Caught Robinson's speech in Newcastle, the guy is a brilliant orator, or demagogue if you're a light sleeper, but he makes a powerful and persuasive case for change in countering Islamic militancy. The alternative seems to be do nothing and let political Islam spread like bacterium and churn out more terrorists that we may or may not stop before they commit another atrocity. Freedom has to come with conditions.

So was Adolf Hitler. Maybe your hero styles himself on old Adolf

[hibsbollah]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/27/help-for-heroes-english-defence-league

Just in case you needed a reason to donate something to h4h...

[Jonnyboy]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/27/help-for-heroes-english-defence-league

Just in case you needed a reason to donate something to h4h...

Wonder if he and his EDL hard men will be sporting those natty balaclava's with gaps for the eyes and mouth?

[The_Todd]

I looked back on this Robinson fellas Twitter account. Yesterday he retweeted support from a fellow wearing an SS uniform in his profile picture. Think about this for a monwnt: an SS uniform. And he's baffled that Help for Heroes doesn't want his money!

[Sylar]

The fallout from this continues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22785074

[lord bunberry]

The fallout from this continues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22785074

The sad thing is that the idiots carrying out these crimes think they have some sort of justification for their actions because two muslims killed a soldier. Groups like the edl are playing into the hands of muslim extremists they just don't have the brains to see it

[LeighLoyal]

The sad thing is that the idiots carrying out these crimes think they have some sort of justification for their actions because two muslims killed a soldier. Groups like the edl are playing into the hands of muslim extremists they just don't have the brains to see it


The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism. This extremism has been well entrenched and displayed long before Mr Lennon embarked on his protest against extremists in his home town of Luton. If you're old enough to remember 1989 and the 20,000 Muslims that mobbed in London's Parliament Square demanding Salman Rushdie be murdered for blasphemy then you'd know this.

[easty]

The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism.

They're both.

[Scouse Hibee]

The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism. This extremism has been well entrenched and displayed long before Mr Lennon embarked on his protest against extremists in his home town of Luton. If you're old enough to remember 1989 and the 20,000 Muslims that mobbed in London's Parliament Square demanding Salman Rushdie be murdered for blasphemy then you'd know this.


I always thought they were demonstrating to get the Government to change the Blasphemy laws rather than demanding Rushdie was murdered. I must have picked it up wrong, or my memory isn't that good.

[lord bunberry]

The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism. This extremism has been well entrenched and displayed long before Mr Lennon embarked on his protest against extremists in his home town of Luton. If you're old enough to remember 1989 and the 20,000 Muslims that mobbed in London's Parliament Square demanding Salman Rushdie be murdered for blasphemy then you'd know this.

I didn't say they were the cause of extremism, I said they were playing into the hands of extremists by carrying out pathetic acts like burning down mosques. Killing innocent people to further your cause is sensless and only unites people against you as does burning down someone's place of worship just becausr they are the same religion.

[Killiehibbie]

The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism. This extremism has been well entrenched and displayed long before Mr Lennon embarked on his protest against extremists in his home town of Luton. If you're old enough to remember 1989 and the 20,000 Muslims that mobbed in London's Parliament Square demanding Salman Rushdie be murdered for blasphemy then you'd know this.They come across as sad old casuals looking for a different fight and muslims are the bogey men.

[Jonnyboy]

The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism. This extremism has been well entrenched and displayed long before Mr Lennon embarked on his protest against extremists in his home town of Luton. If you're old enough to remember 1989 and the 20,000 Muslims that mobbed in London's Parliament Square demanding Salman Rushdie be murdered for blasphemy then you'd know this.

....... are a bunch of thugs, scared to show their faces as they act like hard men.

[Dinkydoo]

I'm still really pissed off that Anders Behring Breivik's church hasn't been burnt down yet......

[Sylar]

I'm still really pissed off that Anders Behring Breivik's church hasn't been burnt down yet......

Nah, he was more the "burn the mosque to the ground" kinda guy himself.

His actions weren't motivated by a religion but by his intolerable and ill-educated hatred of Islam (amongst other facets of his political ideals).

[hibsbollah]

Nah, he was more the "burn the mosque to the ground" kinda guy himself.

His actions weren't motivated by a religion but by his intolerable and ill-educated hatred of Islam (amongst other facets of his political ideals).

I was thinking about Breivik the other day. This is a good article about the woolwich murder, the Breivik murders and the media and political reactions to both.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/24/woolwich-killers-strike-listen

[steakbake]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22785074

Deary me...

[Sylar]

I was thinking about Breivik the other day. This is a good article about the woolwich murder, the Breivik murders and the media and political reactions to both.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/24/woolwich-killers-strike-listen

A very good article indeed HB :aok:

[JimBHibees]

The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism. This extremism has been well entrenched and displayed long before Mr Lennon embarked on his protest against extremists in his home town of Luton. If you're old enough to remember 1989 and the 20,000 Muslims that mobbed in London's Parliament Square demanding Salman Rushdie be murdered for blasphemy then you'd know this.

Nah they are just **** just like their brothers in the NF and BNP.

[Dinkydoo]

Nah, he was more the "burn the mosque to the ground" kinda guy himself.

His actions weren't motivated by a religion but by his intolerable and ill-educated hatred of Islam (amongst other facets of his political ideals).

I know his actions weren't fuelled purely by religious intolerance however I seem to remember him stating that he was a Christian whilst he was in the media's focus. I wonder if the same people (EDL - presumably) would be happy for a church to be burnt down to represent the defence of Norway since there were so many Norwegian citizens that were murdered.

Burning down his place of worship makes about as much sense as destroying the Community Centre.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The EDL are a reaction to and not a cause of Muslim extremism. This extremism has been well entrenched and displayed long before Mr Lennon embarked on his protest against extremists in his home town of Luton. If you're old enough to remember 1989 and the 20,000 Muslims that mobbed in London's Parliament Square demanding Salman Rushdie be murdered for blasphemy then you'd know this.

Why should Scottish people support an organisation that has been established to defend England. Is there not a possibility that English people will turn on Scots, Irish, French, Dutch, Spanish, etc because we don't want to live by English rules?

[Hibrandenburg]

Why should Scottish people support an organisation that has been established to defend England. Is there not a possibility that English people will turn on Scots, Irish, French, Dutch, Spanish, etc because we don't want to live by English rules?

Wasn't that long ago (or was it) that the same buffoons were organising a "Sock a Jock" weekend in anticipation of the Scottish hordes visiting Wembley.

It's reassuring to know that we're now allies in the fight against Johnny Wog.

[Scouse Hibee]

Wasn't that long ago (or was it) that the same buffoons were organising a "Sock a Jock" weekend in anticipation of the Scottish hordes visiting Wembley.

It's reassuring to know that we're now allies in the fight against Johnny Wog.

I thought that was just the local ladies saving money on condoms for the anticipated Jock insertion :greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

Caught Robinson's speech in Newcastle, the guy is a brilliant orator, or demagogue if you're a light sleeper, but he makes a powerful and persuasive case for change in countering Islamic militancy. The alternative seems to be do nothing and let political Islam spread like bacterium and churn out more terrorists that we may or may not stop before they commit another atrocity. Freedom has to come with conditions.

What you are frightened off isn't, for the most part, real. There are extremists and nutters and loons and *******s everywhere. You just happen to dislike this particular bunch as you can pin them on to a community you don't like, for whatever reason. You justify your prejudice by lumping them all in as being of equal threat. You can have your prejudices if you want - that is genuinely part of living in a free society - but at least recognise then for what they are.

As for their religion, it is absurd and I do agree that their is too much kow-towing to the delicate sensibilities of what may be deemed offensive, but I find that with Christianity too. There was a good thread on blasphemy a while back where this was discussed. What these little snapshots of intolerance by the religion don't illustrate is that everyone who follows the religion is by default an extremist. You can argue that moderate faith is an enabler of radicalism, but that is the same for all religion and is very different to saying that everyone needs to be treated as a threat.

Oh, and why are your fears not justified?

I say lock up the bees... (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/06/28/terrorism-bees_n_1633308.html)


Bees and wasps have caused as many deaths in the UK as terrorism in the past decade, an independent watchdog has found.

In the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation's annual report, published on Wednesday, it was revealed that, on average, bees and wasps are as big a killer in Britain as acts of terrorism.

Five people per year are killed by bee or wasp stings, the report said, exactly the same amount, on average, of terrorist actions in the past decade.

"During the 21st century, terrorism has been an insignificant cause of mortality in the United Kingdom," the report, lead by David Anderson QC, said.

"The annualised average of five deaths caused by terrorism in England and Wales over this period compares with total accidental deaths in 2010 of 17,201, including 123 cyclists killed in traffic accidents, 102 personnel killed in Afghanistan, 29 people drowned in the bathtub and five killed by stings from hornets, wasps and bees."

The 7 July bombings remain the only serious terrorist event in the UK this century
The vast majority of those deaths were caused by the 7 July 2005 bombings in London, in which 52 people were killed in three separate attacks on tubes and buses in the capital.

The reviewer insists that terrorism is still a threat to the UK. Despite plots, arrests, charges and convictions for terrorist offences declining "markedly" this decade, Mr Anderson believed that the UK is "a constant target" for terrorists, in particular al-Qaeda, but the threat should not be "overstated".

Speaking of his report, Mr Anderson said that: “The threat from both al-Qaida related and Northern Ireland related terrorism is a real one," adding that it is important to keep on top of the best methods of enforcing anti-terrorism law.

The report recommends that the government could further improve terrorism law by letting "peripheral" suspects apply for bail if they do not threaten public safety, as well as suggesting banning fewer organisations.

[Killiehibbie]

Wasn't that long ago (or was it) that the same buffoons were organising a "Sock a Jock" weekend in anticipation of the Scottish hordes visiting Wembley.

It's reassuring to know that we're now allies in the fight against Johnny Wog.Depends if you consider 3 decades to be a while.

[Betty Boop]

....... are a bunch of thugs, scared to show their faces as they act like hard men.

Yeah some of them wear masks to their demos, the same ones who want to ban the burka .:rolleyes:
.

[Sylar]

Yeah some of them wear masks to their demos, the same ones who want to ban the burka .:rolleyes:
.

Aye, because they'd get arrested if they show their faces dontcha know :rolleyes:

It's a muslamic conspiracy so it is...

[Sylar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8

This sums up the EDL for me though undoubtedly for some, he makes some right good points :rolleyes:

"Muslamic ray guns" indeed - bravo sir, bravo...:faf:

[Dinkydoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8

This sums up the EDL for me though undoubtedly for some, he makes some right good points :rolleyes:

"Muslamic ray guns" indeed - bravo sir, bravo...:faf:

Even the more articulate find it difficult to explain why they support the likes of the BNP without sounding racist; he had no chance :faf:

[wpj]

Local news here in London reporting an arson attack on an Islamic boarding school at the weekend, four teenagers arrested, very sad

[Betty Boop]

Robinson and Carroll making and erse of their selves again. 'You are enforcing Sharia law' :blah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEI0TKkX9_o

[Sylar]

Robinson and Carroll making and erse of their selves again. 'You are enforcing Sharia law' :blah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEI0TKkX9_o

Presumably whatever they were arrested for isn't covered in the brief filming you've linked to?

I heard they had been arrested over the weekend but didn't read the story and that video doesn't exactly show them doing anything worthy of being arrested so I presume whatever it was occurred elsewhere?

[Pretty Boy]

Presumably whatever they were arrested for isn't covered in the brief filming you've linked to?

I heard they had been arrested over the weekend but didn't read the story and that video doesn't exactly show them doing anything worthy of being arrested so I presume whatever it was occurred elsewhere?

The Police had places clear restrictions on where the march was to end. They had spoken to the 2 EDL guys several times about this. The Police tried to agree alternative routes to Woolwich to allow them to pay their 'respects'.

The EDL guys chose to ignore these restrictions so they could walk pat the East London Mosque. They were well aware they would be arrested for doing so.

[Sylar]

The Police had places clear restrictions on where the march was to end. They had spoken to the 2 EDL guys several times about this. The Police tried to agree alternative routes to Woolwich to allow them to pay their 'respects'.

The EDL guys chose to ignore these restrictions so they could walk pat the East London Mosque. They were well aware they would be arrested for doing so.

Cheers PB :aok:

Doesn't come as any form of shock to see they were justly arrested - I just wasn't aware of the background when I heard the headline on the radio.

[Betty Boop]

The Police had places clear restrictions on where the march was to end. They had spoken to the 2 EDL guys several times about this. The Police tried to agree alternative routes to Woolwich to allow them to pay their 'respects'.

The EDL guys chose to ignore these restrictions so they could walk pat the East London Mosque. They were well aware they would be arrested for doing so.

Correct ! :agree: