New BBC programme on Hillsborough

[hibsbollah]

...just started on BBC1.

[hibs4thecup1988]

I know I will probably be in the minority here...

But you only need to watch the Hillsborough documentaries to notice that standing should not be brought back officially.

I appreciate that it can be policed correctly, but they probably thought that back in those days too.

[Frazerbob]

I've watched every programme and read several books on the subject and I still struggle every time to hold it together. The anger, the heart break and the fact that those of us who were going to football week in/week out in those dark days when football fans we are treated like criminals meaning we can relate to every one of those effected, gets me every time.

Last night's programme was another angle, the focus on the cover up, so didn't have so much detail on the how the tragedy happened. The mistakes started a year earlier when the same fixture, between the same clubs, was so close to having the same outcome. The mistakes that were made from that day and in the weeks before the tragedy are shocking. Why was that stadium being used, why were the Liverpool fans in that end, why were the ticket cordons used in 88 not used in 89, why was Duckenfield appointed match commander (this is the biggest contributing factor IMO), we know why Duckenfield ordered Gate C to be opened but why weren't the fans directed to the side pens? The list of "Whys" is endless.

Then the lies and the cover ups started and the damage was done. Still to this day when ever Hilsborough is talked about or debated on forums, there are people who blame drunk, ticketless fans or ask about Justice for the Juvé fans etc. The damage done by Duckenfield's lies and the subsequent lies fed to the press is still felt 24 years later despite all these documentaries.

The stories of the individual victims weren't really explored in any detail last night so I encourage you to read "Hilsborough, The Truth" by Phil Scarton (who featured last night). It was written 20 years ago and made all the allegations of the police cover up that have now been proved. 20 years ago!! It also has several detailed personal stories of the victims, including the Hicks sisters, who's dad featured last night. That guy had to choose between going in an ambulance with one dying daughter or staying on the pitch with his other dying daughter. You can't even begin to comprehend that! It's an incredible read and you will be left in tears several times but it gave me such an understanding of the tragedy.

Finally, I remember the day after the disaster being at Hampden for the Scottish Cup semi against Celtic. The atmosphere that day still lives with me. Muted doesn't even begin to describe it and I remember for the first time really realising that EVERY football fan was being treated as a criminal and potential hooligan rather than a customer or human being. It still happens today. Imagine film fans or music fans being treated the way football fans are when attending their events. That is at the heart of the Hilsborough disaster and subsequent cover up....it was only football fans, they don't count for ****!

[21.05.2016]

Absolutely heart breaking watching some of the footage from that day. Can't even begin to imagine how horrific it must have been for those people. The crowd of people were treated like animals. The police were completely unprepared, lost control and were massively incompetent.

Its a disgrace of the highest order the way the authorities tryed to save their own skins by pointing the finger to the liverpool supporters. The pain and suffering the survivors and the victims families have had to suffer since that day is disgusting but massive credit to them all for their continued fight for truth and justice despite facing many blows and set backs over the years.

JFT96

[Barman Stanton]

It was awful to watch. Can clearly see the police pushing people back into the pen - possibly to their deaths. Heartbreaking stuff.

[hibsbollah]

Theres been a few programmes and books recently on the independent panel's report, so some of it we've heard before,but the new thing last nights programme showed was the extent of the coverup. Implicated in the lie were; South Yorkshire police, West Midlands police, NHS Senior management, the CPS, Lord Justice Taylor himself, the newspaper editors (Kelvin McKenzie take a special bow you ****). They all knew the stories they were putting out were lies. And, although theres no actual smoking gun, almost definitely Thatcher, Jack Straw and possibly Blair as well look complicit (the 'why? Whats the point? scrawled over the parliamentary paper)...Theres at least five people in last nights programme who MUST be the subject of criminal charges, surely.

Its a salutory lesson to people who refuse to believe in conspiracies. They DO happen, and sometimes its only good luck and the hard work of individual journalists and people like Anne Williams and Phil Scarton that mean we find out about it.

[lapsedhibee]

Imagine film fans or music fans being treated the way football fans are when attending their events. That is at the heart of the Hilsborough disaster and subsequent cover up....it was only football fans, they don't count for ****!

Have you ever gone to watch a film and been spat on by someone else in the audience? :dunno:

[Hibercelona]

I know I will probably be in the minority here...

But you only need to watch the Hillsborough documentaries to notice that standing should not be brought back officially.

I appreciate that it can be policed correctly, but they probably thought that back in those days too.

Standing wasn't the cause of the disaster. Poor crowd control was.

Every fan that enters a stadium now is accounted for, so over crowding is impossible now.

[21.05.2016]

Theres been a few programmes and books recently on the independent panel's report, so some of it we've heard before,but the new thing last nights programme showed was the extent of the coverup. Implicated in the lie were; South Yorkshire police, West Midlands police, NHS Senior management, the CPS, Lord Justice Taylor himself, the newspaper editors (Kelvin McKenzie take a special bow you ****). They all knew the stories they were putting out were lies. And, although theres no actual smoking gun, almost definitely Thatcher, Jack Straw and possibly Blair as well look complicit (the 'why? Whats the point? scrawled over the parliamentary paper)...Theres at least five people in last nights programme who MUST be the subject of criminal charges, surely.

Its a salutory lesson to people who refuse to believe in conspiracies. They DO happen, and sometimes its only good luck and the hard work of individual journalists and people like Anne Williams and Phil Scarton that mean we find out about it.

That **** is a vile, arrogant liar (who looks like a fat Wallace Mercer lol) who still has the nerve to appear publicly in the papers and television. The slimeball has no shame or morals what so ever!

[truehibernian]

Last night's programme was quite simply heart wrenching but compulsive viewing - the parents and family members of those that died in the tragedy, who took part in the programme, were awe inspiring in the way they still had dignity and humility despite being criminally (in all manners of the word) let down by a host of agencies and politicians. The BBC footage of that day really hit home how chaotic the scenes were.

What was also quite balanced was that it showed that there were police officers, ambulance personnel and fire fighters (on and off duty) who tried their hardest to help - the commanders should be pursued criminally as well as those that lied and submitted false statements - but there were those on the ground that day that were incredibly human and whose first instinct was perhaps to go against 'orders' and help - sadly not enough of them however.

I was incredulous whilst watching that if a BBC commentator (Motson) could see from his vantage point where the problem of crushing lay, why on earth could a match commander not see it - the sight of police officers preventing people from getting onto the pitch or climbing over to safety was sickening and brought a tear to my eye. They were literally staring dead people in the eye.

If I recall correctly I am sure that the previous season there had been a similar problem which was only averted at the last minute by 'common sense' policing - the senior police, the football club, the fire service are all accountable for events that happened that day. You were almost willing someone in these fields to 'break ranks' and go against orders - heartbreaking viewing but compulsive viewing.

[Posh Swanny]

I know I will probably be in the minority here...

But you only need to watch the Hillsborough documentaries to notice that standing should not be brought back officially.

I appreciate that it can be policed correctly, but they probably thought that back in those days too.

Picture the scene: there are high metal fences separating the different sections of the East and even higher fences running along the front. There is a big sign in the concourse right in front of the turnstiles saying "SEATS THIS WAY". Easter Road is being used for a cup semi final and Aberdeen fans have the East. The Dons fans have all arrived late due to traffic problems on the way down and they're about to miss the kick off, they come through the turnstiles and head straight down the tunnel in front of them. Little do they know that this area only has 800 seats in it. They realise they're in the wrong area so turn to go back, but hundreds more are coming in behind them. They can't move to another section because of the fences and they can't get onto the pitch because of the fences. What happens?

All of the things that prevent such a scenario happening in a seated area today (mainly signage and a lack of fences) can and are easily be applied to standing areas. If there are 800 seats/standing spaces in a section, only allow 800 people into that section, simple. Hillsborough didn't happen because people were stood up, it happened because 4000 people were allowed into an area designed for 2000 with no means of escape.

And a final point of interest, there were 53 years between stadium crush disasters in England (Burnden Park and Hillsborough) - only 24 have passed since the last one.

[Frazerbob]

Have you ever gone to watch a film and been spat on by someone else in the audience? :dunno:

No. Nor have I been spat on by a fellow football supporter. I have had pints of lager and urine thrown on me a few gigs though. What's your point?

[lapsedhibee]

No. Nor have I been spat on by a fellow football supporter. I have had pints of lager and urine thrown on me a few gigs though. What's your point?

My point is that you were implying that fitbagoing crowds and filmgoing crowds should be treated similarly, but they don't behave similarly. Some of the peeps you see at ER, veins throbbing, eyes bulging, screaming abuse at all and Sandra, would be well suited to being put on a leash while outdoors. I've never seen anything like that in a cinema, ever. It's tolerated at fitba matches, but it wouldn't be tolerated at most other public events. It's not surprising if fitba crowds are treated worse than other crowds.

[Mark1875]

It's not surprising if fitba crowds are treated worse than other crowds.

That's a ridiculous statement. Treated differently yes sure but treated worse surely not.

Football crowds were, and still are in some places, treated like criminals despite the fact that most of us have no criminal record whatsoever. This is no different to any mass gathering off people, the majority are not criminals and don't deserve to be treated as such.

[lapsedhibee]

That's a ridiculous statement. Treated differently yes sure but treated worse surely not.

Football crowds were, and still are in some places, treated like criminals despite the fact that most of us have no criminal record whatsoever. This is no different to any mass gathering off people, the majority are not criminals and don't deserve to be treated as such.

Ok here's a question for you. Why do you think it was so easy for the establishment to successfuly tar the 'puddle supporters with false allegations (and subsequently maintain their cover-up for two decades)?

Perhaps because for the decade prior to Hillsborough whenever the word 'fitba' was mentioned on the tellybox it was more often than not followed by the word 'hooligan'. This wasn't all made up by the media - fitba crowds behaved very badly indeed. Obviously not everyone in them, but enough to warrant mounted polis with batons, etc etc etc. There were I think no mounties at large cricket, golf, rugby, tennis, events - why was that, if fitba crowds as you suggest were no different to any mass gathering of people? Television pictures from Heysel, too, would have been reasonably fresh in the mind.

Things are generally much better now, but still there are elements of behaviour tolerated at fitba matches that aren't tolerated anywhere else (whether on the basis of 'it's just banter', 'he's paid his money and can do what he likes', or whatever, doesn't really matter). You are way more likely to come into contact with a drunken nutter at a fitba match than at, say, a cinema, and on that basis alone all fitba fans, including those like you and me with an unblemished record, can reasonably expect to be treated more warily by authority figures).

[cocopops1875]

My point is that you were implying that fitbagoing crowds and filmgoing crowds should be treated similarly, but they don't behave similarly. Some of the peeps you see at ER, veins throbbing, eyes bulging, screaming abuse at all and Sandra, would be well suited to being put on a leash while outdoors. I've never seen anything like that in a cinema, ever. It's tolerated at fitba matches, but it wouldn't be tolerated at most other public events. It's not surprising if fitba crowds are treated worse than other crowds.
It's no wonder, Sandra hasn't put in much of a performance for seasons now barely even touched the ball

[Gatecrasher]

Ok here's a question for you. Why do you think it was so easy for the establishment to successfuly tar the 'puddle supporters with false allegations (and subsequently maintain their cover-up for two decades)?

Perhaps because for the decade prior to Hillsborough whenever the word 'fitba' was mentioned on the tellybox it was more often than not followed by the word 'hooligan'. This wasn't all made up by the media - fitba crowds behaved very badly indeed. Obviously not everyone in them, but enough to warrant mounted polis with batons, etc etc etc. There were I think no mounties at large cricket, golf, rugby, tennis, events - why was that, if fitba crowds as you suggest were no different to any mass gathering of people? Television pictures from Heysel, too, would have been reasonably fresh in the mind.

Things are generally much better now, but still there are elements of behaviour tolerated at fitba matches that aren't tolerated anywhere else (whether on the basis of 'it's just banter', 'he's paid his money and can do what he likes', or whatever, doesn't really matter). You are way more likely to come into contact with a drunken nutter at a fitba match than at, say, a cinema, and on that basis alone all fitba fans, including those like you and me with an unblemished record, can reasonably expect to be treated more warily by authority figures).
It wasn't easy for them though. they had a whole operation to cover up the truth. The effort they put in to deflecting the blame on to the fans was a disgrace.

I'm not going to suggest football fans we all angels but to suggest it was easy for the cover up the truth is not the case as last nights programme proved.

[lapsedhibee]

It wasn't easy for them though. they had a whole operation to cover up the truth. The effort they put in to deflecting the blame on to the fans was a disgrace.

I'm not going to suggest football fans we all angels but to suggest it was easy for the cover up the truth is not the case as last nights programme proved.

I didn't see anything in the programme last night to suggest that newspaper editors' (etc) arms had to be twisted to report the false allegations that they did - shirley all the polis had to do was spin a simple line, about drunken ticketless fans behaving badly. The history of football hooliganism up to that point did the rest.

The continuing cover up required more effort, certainly, but I'd still suggest that it was made easier than it should have been by the shocking (and deserved imo) reputation that English football fans had at the time of Hillsborough.

[Purple & Green]

Its a salutory lesson to people who refuse to believe in conspiracies. They DO happen, and sometimes its only good luck and the hard work of individual journalists and people like Anne Williams and Phil Scarton that mean we find out about it.

Well said. You have to wonder if anyone will ever be held to account for what happened that day, despite the overwhelming evidence.

[Gatecrasher]

I didn't see anything in the programme last night to suggest that newspaper editors' (etc) arms had to be twisted to report the false allegations that they did - shirley all the polis had to do was spin a simple line, about drunken ticketless fans behaving badly. The history of football hooliganism up to that point did the rest.

The continuing cover up required more effort, certainly, but I'd still suggest that it was made easier than it should have been by the shocking (and deserved imo) reputation that English football fans had at the time of Hillsborough.

Sorry I thought you were referring to how easy it was for the Police to cover it up when infact they went to great effort to do so. Not the reporting of the disaster.

[hibsbollah]

I didn't see anything in the programme last night to suggest that newspaper editors' (etc) arms had to be twisted to report the false allegations that they did - shirley all the polis had to do was spin a simple line, about drunken ticketless fans behaving badly. The history of football hooliganism up to that point did the rest.

.

Just on the subject of newspapers, what was shown was the subheading under the infamous 'The Truth' headline in The Sun; 'Laughing Fans Said 'Bring Her Up Here And We'll F*** Her' (referring to a dead female Liverpool fan). The Independent Panel couldn't come up with any police source for this most disgusting of allegations, (and it had plenty of evidence of other police smears, like the 'urinating on dead fans' one, in the form of notes from the meeting between the police and McKenzie). This story looks like it came from the delightful mind of Kelvin himself, or one of his sidekicks at The Sun.

Which shows the kind of person you're talking about.

[lapsedhibee]

Just on the subject of newspapers, what was shown was the subheading under the infamous 'The Truth' headline in The Sun; 'Laughing Fans Said 'Bring Her Up Here And We'll F*** Her' (referring to a dead female Liverpool fan). The Independent Panel couldn't come up with any police source for this most disgusting of allegations, (and it had plenty of evidence of other police smears, like the 'urinating on dead fans' one, in the form of notes from the meeting between the police and McKenzie). This story looks like it came from the delightful mind of Kelvin himself, or one of his sidekicks at The Sun.

Which shows the kind of person you're talking about.

Sun and KM were obviously the worst offenders in repeating (or worse) polis propaganda, but - and I may be wrong - I don't think there was initially any groundswell of opinion outside of Liverpuddle that any great miscarriages might have taken place, and I attribute that to the fact that fitba supporters at that time were considered by the wider public, with some justification, to be more or less synonymous with hooligans. Although the BBC had clear footage of most of what went wrong, I don't remember Motty doing any campaigning to correct the misinformation that the polis were giving out. (Might be wrong about this, but seems to me that outside of those people immediately affected, not many folk gave much of a toss about fitba fans - would be wrong to dump this all on to the reptile McKenzie, imo.)

[pacorosssco]

As football fans you feel the outrage of what went on and how fans of all kinds were treated. We are treated better now but we are still low down the food chain compared to other so called entertainments. The issue of standing will always divide but if you can stand at a gig at hampden for instance why cant you stand at a football game?

[essexhibee]

As football fans you feel the outrage of what went on and how fans of all kinds were treated. We are treated better now but we are still low down the food chain compared to other so called entertainments. The issue of standing will always divide but if you can stand at a gig at hampden for instance why cant you stand at a football game?

My only experience of terracing (only 19) was at a Peterborough game recently with Leicester this season. The same problems occurred here in a a way. Everyone went through the turnstiles and turned into the first entrance tunnel. Before the game even had started there was a big crush and I found myself pinned up against the guy infront unable to move my arms. Wasn't very pleasant. Where were the stewards telling fans to move further up the stand was my question.

Turned out that P'boro had 'oversold' the allocation apparently...but how do you know the capacity of a standing area? At one point there was a big push from behind as late coming drunks tried to get into the ground. Everyone fell forward and I found myself separated from the others I was with.

This is terracing in modern football times and IMO it isn't safe and after this experience can totally see why terracing hasn't made a return.

[Jonnyboy]

Recorded the programme and watched it tonight. Mood ran from tears to anger to tears and back to anger again. Duckinfield and Bettison arte still alive and should be in jail IMO as their incompetence resulted in 96 deaths.

[pacorosssco]

My only experience of terracing (only 19) was at a Peterborough game recently with Leicester this season. The same problems occurred here in a a way. Everyone went through the turnstiles and turned into the first entrance tunnel. Before the game even had started there was a big crush and I found myself pinned up against the guy infront unable to move my arms. Wasn't very pleasant. Where were the stewards telling fans to move further up the stand was my question.

Turned out that P'boro had 'oversold' the allocation apparently...but how do you know the capacity of a standing area? At one point there was a big push from behind as late coming drunks tried to get into the ground. Everyone fell forward and I found myself separated from the others I was with.

This is terracing in modern football times and IMO it isn't safe and after this experience can totally see why terracing hasn't made a return.

Fair point and only as a point of discussion is it any less safe than a gig in a small venue with people tanked up falling over the place or a take that gig full off crazy women?

[ancient hibee]

The newspapers all published photographs of peple pressed up against the fence.It was quite clear some of them were dead.I phoned up the Scotsman picture dept.and told them they should be ashamed of themselves.They told me that they regretted publishing it and wouldn't do it again.


On a different note when I went to the 1958 cup final -108,000 I think-I don't remember having a ticket-it was pay at the gate.I'd been to Scotland v England a couple of years earlier which was ticketed-139000 I think.

[Scouse Hibee]

I haven't brought myself to watch last night's programme yet, I tend to like to watch all things about Hillsborough when I'm in on my own, everything I watch takes me back to that dreadful day and the tears start. I will probably watch it in a couple of days.

[ronaldo7]

Standing wasn't the cause of the disaster. Poor crowd control was.

Every fan that enters a stadium now is accounted for, so over crowding is impossible now.

I went to Dunfermline a couple of seasons ago, and entered the stand behind the goals with several thousand other Hibees. The stand eventually filled and others were still being let in. We eventually had to be sent over to the other stand which was empty. If that stand had been full, what would we have done. I know it's not the same as when we used to stand at games, but systems fail sometimes, and if the police on the ground looking at the situation don't move quickly enough you get problems arising.

One of the points on the programme which got to me was the Doctor who had been at the game, and Taylor tried to tarnish his image as he wasn't a "Real" doctor. It just showed to me that Taylor's mind was made up prior to the inquest.

Too many other things to mention but Bettison and Duckenfield should have been jailed.

[LancashireHibby]

Turned out that P'boro had 'oversold' the allocation apparently...but how do you know the capacity of a standing area? At one point there was a big push from behind as late coming drunks tried to get into the ground. Everyone fell forward and I found myself separated from the others I was with.

This is terracing in modern football times and IMO it isn't safe and after this experience can totally see why terracing hasn't made a return.
The capacity is determined by allowing x amount of space per spectator. Situations that you mention are something that have never truly been solved - folk are generally lazy, and just go through the first entrance they see and then stand in the first place that they arrive in. There needs to be much more proactive stewarding to properly filter the crowd, especially when more people are entering the ground on one side of the ground than the other.

[pacorosssco]

I haven't brought myself to watch last night's programme yet, I tend to like to watch all things about Hillsborough when I'm in on my own, everything I watch takes me back to that dreadful day and the tears start. I will probably watch it in a couple of days.

Fair enough, im not from liverpool and not a fan but my dad worked for a company there when I grew up and I was taken games from 1985. My dad is old school but he was deeply shaken at work colleagues stories and the losses of the community. It is hard to watch even if you have no connection. I take my hat off to those whos campaign has brought the truth to light

Ding dong

[hibsbollah]

Well said. You have to wonder if anyone will ever be held to account for what happened that day, despite the overwhelming evidence.

Duckenfield was acquitted in 2000 because the jury couldnt reach a verdict. Now the double jeopardy laws have been got rid of and the findings of the Independent Panel are so clear, im amazed the families havent started a new case against him :dunno: Too much to ask for for the current South Yorkshire Police to arrest him at his front door, i suppose

.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I haven't brought myself to watch last night's programme yet, I tend to like to watch all things about Hillsborough when I'm in on my own, everything I watch takes me back to that dreadful day and the tears start. I will probably watch it in a couple of days.

I'm exactly the same SH, although having the misfortune to have witnessed the days events at first hand I feel we are quite entitled to shed a few tears.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

When we see the police, the judiciary and politicians conspiring like this in foreign countries there is a self assurance that it wouldn't happen here as the UK is the default setting for all points on the moral compass for societies that claim to adhere to the maxim that the truth will out. The fact that this involved football and football fans is almost a side issue.