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The Sea-gull
14-05-2013, 10:51 AM
Although we have 2 games still to play and could end up 7th compared to 9th as we are at the moment, I think we can just about evaluate PF's first full season in charge. I'm going to ignore the cup final slightly because if he wins it he will be a club legend forever but the league always gives a better idea of where you are at as a club.

When he joined us in Nov 2011 we were a shambles and very much in a relegation fight. Even at that point I said that the minimum criteria for him was for us to stay up and if he achieved that , no matter how he did it, then he should keep his job and be given time to get on with it without too much criticism. He did achieve albeit not particularly convincingly but he achieved it nonetheless and I felt he deserved to keep his job into this season.

At the start of this season, with recognition that he had a tough job to do and it would be difficult (but not impossible) to turn relegation fodder into Euro challengers in just a season, I felt the minimum progress for him to keep his job for next season was to at least have us challenging to get in the top 6 this season and well clear of a relegation battle. He achieved that, again in the most minimal of ways but we were in contention for the top 6 until the last game before the split.

The first third of the season or so was good and we looked good. The last two thirds, barring one or two results mainly in the cup, has been dissappointing. He takes credit for a good run at the start of the season, isolated results like the cup wins over Hearts, Aberdeen, Killie and the second half v Falkirk as well as league wins over Celtic and Hearts. He must take criticism for the long runs of poor form, the fact that we haven't beaten Ross County (indeed lost all three) or ICT all season, result and performance when on a good run at Dundee (the beginning of the end for our league run IMHO) and the disaster that was the first half v Falkirk. Had we not come back v Falkirk I think his posistion would have been more or less untenable coupled with the long poor run we were on at that time. Even his biggest supporters were finding it difficult to defend him at half time in that game.

I give him huge credit for Sunday's derby win as it was a great performance but he will only truly convince me when we become a bit more conisistent. Since mid-November we have played 22 league games and won only 4. Only one of those wins has come at ER. 10 of those 22 games have ended in defeat. Perhaps PF has been a bit unlucky in that he had a really good run at the start of the season and has then gone on a really poor run. Had the results been a bit more spread, expectations would not have risen so high and criticism would not have been so strong.

My own verdict on PF following 18 months in the job - achieving the bare minimum in terms of acceptability. Has done enough to convince me he is the man for next season but has not yet done enough to convince me he is the man for the long haul. Still evaluating him continuously at the moment.

Expectations for him for next season - top 6 is a must otherwise will seriously start to doubt him. Anyone managing Hibs properly should be getting top six 2.5 years into his job in a league with a financially stricken Hearts and no Rangers. If he gets us in top 6 then he keeps his job. If he doesn't then his position should be up for serious evaluation.

What do others think?

WestEndHibee
14-05-2013, 11:05 AM
Although we have 2 games still to play and could end up 7th compared to 9th as we are at the moment, I think we can just about evaluate PF's first full season in charge. I'm going to ignore the cup final slightly because if he wins it he will be a club legend forever but the league always gives a better idea of where you are at as a club.

When he joined us in Nov 2011 we were a shambles and very much in a relegation fight. Even at that point I said that the minimum criteria for him was for us to stay up and if he achieved that , no matter how he did it, then he should keep his job and be given time to get on with it without too much criticism. He did achieve albeit not particularly convincingly but he achieved it nonetheless and I felt he deserved to keep his job into this season.

At the start of this season, with recognition that he had a tough job to do and it would be difficult (but not impossible) to turn relegation fodder into Euro challengers in just a season, I felt the minimum progress for him to keep his job for next season was to at least have us challenging to get in the top 6 this season and well clear of a relegation battle. He achieved that, again in the most minimal of ways but we were in contention for the top 6 until the last game before the split.

The first third of the season or so was good and we looked good. The last two thirds, barring one or two results mainly in the cup, has been dissappointing. He takes credit for a good run at the start of the season, isolated results like the cup wins over Hearts, Aberdeen, Killie and the second half v Falkirk as well as league wins over Celtic and Hearts. He must take criticism for the long runs of poor form, the fact that we haven't beaten Ross County (indeed lost all three) or ICT all season, result and performance when on a good run at Dundee (the beginning of the end for our league run IMHO) and the disaster that was the first half v Falkirk. Had we not come back v Falkirk I think his posistion would have been more or less untenable coupled with the long poor run we were on at that time. Even his biggest supporters were finding it difficult to defend him at half time in that game.

I give him huge credit for Sunday's derby win as it was a great performance but he will only truly convince me when we become a bit more conisistent. Since mid-November we have played 22 league games and won only 4. Only one of those wins has come at ER. 10 of those 22 games have ended in defeat. Perhaps PF has been a bit unlucky in that he had a really good run at the start of the season and has then gone on a really poor run. Had the results been a bit more spread, expectations would not have risen so high and criticism would not have been so strong.

My own verdict on PF following 18 months in the job - achieving the bare minimum in terms of acceptability. Has done enough to convince me he is the man for next season but has not yet done enough to convince me he is the man for the long haul. Still evaluating him continuously at the moment.

Expectations for him for next season - top 6 is a must otherwise will seriously start to doubt him. Anyone managing Hibs properly should be getting top six 2.5 years into his job in a league with a financially stricken Hearts and no Rangers. If he gets us in top 6 then he keeps his job. If he doesn't then his position should be up for serious evaluation.

What do others think?

:top marks I think this is spot on. I think he deserves to stay on and I think Hibs need a consistency at the helm. I hope he'll be the right man to get the best out of the youngsters as he has done with Leigh and I agree that we NEED to be in the top six next year as a strict minimum. It's been slow but I really hope we can see the benefits of sticking with a manager going into next season.

brydekirk
14-05-2013, 11:05 AM
Still think we rode our luck in some games at the start of the season, then again we've had some bad decisions go against us this half of the season.
Still not convinced he can change a game when needed, but willing to give him more time.

hibbysam
14-05-2013, 11:13 AM
Still think we rode our luck in some games at the start of the season, then again we've had some bad decisions go against us this half of the season.
Still not convinced he can change a game when needed, but willing to give him more time.

3-0 down at half time vs Falkirk and we won 4-3?
1-0 down at half time vs Hearts and we won 2-1?

Yet he can't change a game? OP was spot on, but progress has indeed been made both on and off the park this season and as long as the steady progress is made then I will be more than happy with Pat at the helm for the next 3/4 years.

SaulGoodman
14-05-2013, 11:18 AM
Still think we rode our luck in some games at the start of the season, then again we've had some bad decisions go against us this half of the season.
Still not convinced he can change a game when needed, but willing to give him more time.

Who got the assist for Caldwells goal? :wink:

JustSimplyHibs
14-05-2013, 11:22 AM
Although we have 2 games still to play and could end up 7th compared to 9th as we are at the moment, I think we can just about evaluate PF's first full season in charge. I'm going to ignore the cup final slightly because if he wins it he will be a club legend forever but the league always gives a better idea of where you are at as a club.

When he joined us in Nov 2011 we were a shambles and very much in a relegation fight. Even at that point I said that the minimum criteria for him was for us to stay up and if he achieved that , no matter how he did it, then he should keep his job and be given time to get on with it without too much criticism. He did achieve albeit not particularly convincingly but he achieved it nonetheless and I felt he deserved to keep his job into this season.

At the start of this season, with recognition that he had a tough job to do and it would be difficult (but not impossible) to turn relegation fodder into Euro challengers in just a season, I felt the minimum progress for him to keep his job for next season was to at least have us challenging to get in the top 6 this season and well clear of a relegation battle. He achieved that, again in the most minimal of ways but we were in contention for the top 6 until the last game before the split.

The first third of the season or so was good and we looked good. The last two thirds, barring one or two results mainly in the cup, has been dissappointing. He takes credit for a good run at the start of the season, isolated results like the cup wins over Hearts, Aberdeen, Killie and the second half v Falkirk as well as league wins over Celtic and Hearts. He must take criticism for the long runs of poor form, the fact that we haven't beaten Ross County (indeed lost all three) or ICT all season, result and performance when on a good run at Dundee (the beginning of the end for our league run IMHO) and the disaster that was the first half v Falkirk. Had we not come back v Falkirk I think his posistion would have been more or less untenable coupled with the long poor run we were on at that time. Even his biggest supporters were finding it difficult to defend him at half time in that game.

I give him huge credit for Sunday's derby win as it was a great performance but he will only truly convince me when we become a bit more conisistent. Since mid-November we have played 22 league games and won only 4. Only one of those wins has come at ER. 10 of those 22 games have ended in defeat. Perhaps PF has been a bit unlucky in that he had a really good run at the start of the season and has then gone on a really poor run. Had the results been a bit more spread, expectations would not have risen so high and criticism would not have been so strong.

My own verdict on PF following 18 months in the job - achieving the bare minimum in terms of acceptability. Has done enough to convince me he is the man for next season but has not yet done enough to convince me he is the man for the long haul. Still evaluating him continuously at the moment.

Expectations for him for next season - top 6 is a must otherwise will seriously start to doubt him. Anyone managing Hibs properly should be getting top six 2.5 years into his job in a league with a financially stricken Hearts and no Rangers. If he gets us in top 6 then he keeps his job. If he doesn't then his position should be up for serious evaluation.

What do others think?

Spot on, although the poor ref decisions against THEM and Dundee Utd robbed us of four points and a top 6 finish.

I'd give him another year as i personally believe that stability is the key; outwith Utd (who Hibs would have replaced if it wasn't for poor refs) the top 6 teams prove this with with their managers being there for over a couple of seasons.

patlowe
14-05-2013, 11:25 AM
Although we have 2 games still to play and could end up 7th compared to 9th as we are at the moment, I think we can just about evaluate PF's first full season in charge. I'm going to ignore the cup final slightly because if he wins it he will be a club legend forever but the league always gives a better idea of where you are at as a club.

When he joined us in Nov 2011 we were a shambles and very much in a relegation fight. Even at that point I said that the minimum criteria for him was for us to stay up and if he achieved that , no matter how he did it, then he should keep his job and be given time to get on with it without too much criticism. He did achieve albeit not particularly convincingly but he achieved it nonetheless and I felt he deserved to keep his job into this season.

At the start of this season, with recognition that he had a tough job to do and it would be difficult (but not impossible) to turn relegation fodder into Euro challengers in just a season, I felt the minimum progress for him to keep his job for next season was to at least have us challenging to get in the top 6 this season and well clear of a relegation battle. He achieved that, again in the most minimal of ways but we were in contention for the top 6 until the last game before the split.

The first third of the season or so was good and we looked good. The last two thirds, barring one or two results mainly in the cup, has been dissappointing. He takes credit for a good run at the start of the season, isolated results like the cup wins over Hearts, Aberdeen, Killie and the second half v Falkirk as well as league wins over Celtic and Hearts. He must take criticism for the long runs of poor form, the fact that we haven't beaten Ross County (indeed lost all three) or ICT all season, result and performance when on a good run at Dundee (the beginning of the end for our league run IMHO) and the disaster that was the first half v Falkirk. Had we not come back v Falkirk I think his posistion would have been more or less untenable coupled with the long poor run we were on at that time. Even his biggest supporters were finding it difficult to defend him at half time in that game.

I give him huge credit for Sunday's derby win as it was a great performance but he will only truly convince me when we become a bit more conisistent. Since mid-November we have played 22 league games and won only 4. Only one of those wins has come at ER. 10 of those 22 games have ended in defeat. Perhaps PF has been a bit unlucky in that he had a really good run at the start of the season and has then gone on a really poor run. Had the results been a bit more spread, expectations would not have risen so high and criticism would not have been so strong.

My own verdict on PF following 18 months in the job - achieving the bare minimum in terms of acceptability. Has done enough to convince me he is the man for next season but has not yet done enough to convince me he is the man for the long haul. Still evaluating him continuously at the moment.

Expectations for him for next season - top 6 is a must otherwise will seriously start to doubt him. Anyone managing Hibs properly should be getting top six 2.5 years into his job in a league with a financially stricken Hearts and no Rangers. If he gets us in top 6 then he keeps his job. If he doesn't then his position should be up for serious evaluation.

What do others think?

Can't argue with much, if any, of this.

I can't help thinking that the retaining (or otherwise) of Claros and Griffiths will have a huge bearing on the team's, and Fenlon's, performance next season. You could argue that Fenlon is lucky to have them or suggest that he deserves credit for them being here, but it's hard to imagine where we'd be without their contributions this season.

Having said that, he deserves huge credit for the signing of Williams and the emergence of Harris and, to a lesser extent, Caldwell and Handling, suggest that he just might be able to re-inject the youthful streak we've sorely missed over the last few years.

Hibstrooper
14-05-2013, 11:28 AM
Can't argue with much, if any, of this.

I can't help thinking that the retaining (or otherwise) of Claros and Griffiths will have a huge bearing on the team's, and Fenlon's, performance next season. You could argue that Fenlon is lucky to have them or suggest that he deserves credit for them being here, but it's hard to imagine where we'd be without their contributions this season.

Having said that, he deserves huge credit for the signing of Williams and the emergence of Harris and, to a lesser extent, Caldwell and Handling, suggest that he just might be able to re-inject the youthful streak we've sorely missed over the last few years.

Don't forget huge credit for helping shape Leigh into the player he is now. He was a decent player when arrived but now he is on a completely different level. Pat seems to know how to get the best out of him and how to manage down his off field antics.

Stevie Reid
14-05-2013, 11:29 AM
Happy he's the man to take us forward - this season has had more highlights than any since the 2007 cup win, and we have improved considerably.

The quality that we have coming in next season in Liam Craig, allied with the emergence of the youngsters in the last few weeks is genuinely exciting, and it says a lot for Pat that Griffiths and Claros have improved so much and both want to stay here. Lewis Stevenson has had a much better season than last year but was nowhere close to retaining his player of the year award, which is a good indicator of how far we've come. I am confident that Fenlon will improve us further in the next transfer market too, and I have genuine hope that we can retain Thomson, with a decent chance of Claros and Griffiths too. We have much to look forward to, including a cup final.

Overall positives: -

- A lot more points than last season
- 2 wins (should be 3) and 3 draws from 5 derbies, including first league win and win at Tynie in 4 years
- New signings have improved us overall
- Players still here from last season have improved considerably (McPake probably the only exception)
- Emergence of genuinely exciting youngsters, with Harris the most exciting in years
- Some excellent football played
- Last season's goal difference was -27. Currently we are - 6
- Ben Williams
- Another cup final
- In Europe
- Much better home form
- Second most improved team in the SPL, behind Inverness
- 4 goals scored away from ER on three occasions


Negatives: -

- Some horrible football played over a significant period of the season
- Only lost 7 of first 24 SPL league games - have lost 6 of last 12
- Only 3 wins from last 20 league games
- 3 defeats to Ross County
- Only scored more than 2 goals at ER twice
- League cup defeat


Current overall 2012-13 record

P 41 W 15 D 12 L 14


The last week, with all the media attention surrounding Fergie and Moyes, has shown how long it can take to rebuild clubs with resources that we can only dream of. Fenlon is doing just fine, but I agree that a top 6 finish and pushing for Europe/2nd place is essential for next season - I'm confident that we will be.

Overall I would say that we have been a wee bit unfortunate this season, but our recovery from last May has been significant. I am always proud to be a Hibbie but this season is the first one in a long time that I have felt genuine pride when watching us. Long may it continue.

The Sea-gull
14-05-2013, 11:51 AM
Can't argue with much, if any, of this.

I can't help thinking that the retaining (or otherwise) of Claros and Griffiths will have a huge bearing on the team's, and Fenlon's, performance next season. You could argue that Fenlon is lucky to have them or suggest that he deserves credit for them being here, but it's hard to imagine where we'd be without their contributions this season.

Having said that, he deserves huge credit for the signing of Williams and the emergence of Harris and, to a lesser extent, Caldwell and Handling, suggest that he just might be able to re-inject the youthful streak we've sorely missed over the last few years.

Yeah, I'd be very happy if we can keep Williams, Harris, Griffiths, Claros, McGivern and Thomson. If we could do that plus sign a right back (I'm still not convinced we have that position sorted yet) and we could definitely do with another centre half then we could be decent next season once the players have this season ahve had a bit more time together.

I'd credit him for the emergence of Harris but also criticise him for not playing him sooner perhaps around December time when Cairney and Spoony were starting to go off the boil after a good start. We really lacked creativity of any sort all through the winter and it has cost us. When we were doing well in the autumn we had no creativity from the centre but it didn't matter as Sponoy and Cairney were on fire out wide. Once they dried up we had no creativity at all and we had it there with Harris all along but he only really started featuring from mid March.

Hopefull that Craig will come in and provide us with a bit more creativity to compliment our good defensive midfielders and an on-form Scott Robertson would give us a box to box battler who can make late runs, get the odd goal and hold the ball up a wee bit.

Big if but if we kept LG I would be happy to go with him plus Handling, Caldwell and a new signing as our four strikers. Keeping LG would mean the new signing would probably not be a big name or someone of a huge pedigree but LG is suited to playing his own up front so we would only be looking for cover as opposed to someone who would feature every week.

Would fancy this team for next season:-

............................................Willia ms................................................ ....

Clancy/New RB............McPake/New CB..........Hanlon...................McGivern

............................Claros/Taiwo/Thomson (2 from 3)................................

..........Harris......................Robertson... .......................Craig...................

..........................................Griffith s................................................. ......

Stevie Reid
14-05-2013, 11:54 AM
Yeah, I'd be very happy if we can keep Williams, Harris, Griffiths, Claros, McGivern and Thomson. If we could do that plus sign a right back (I'm still not convinced we have that position sorted yet) and we could definitely do with another centre half then we could be decent next season once the players have this season ahve had a bit more time together.

I'd credit him for the emergence of Harris but also criticise him for not playing him sooner perhaps around December time when Cairney and Spoony were starting to go off the boil after a good start. We really lacked creativity of any sort all through the winter and it has cost us. When we were doing well in the autumn we had no creativity from the centre but it didn't matter as Sponny and Cairney were on fire out wide. Once they dried up we had no creativity at all and we had it there with Harris all along but he only really started featuring from mid March.

Hopefull that Craig will come in and provide us with a bit more creativity to compliment our good defensive midfielders and an on-form Scott Robertson would give us a box to box battler who can make late runs, get the odd goal and hold the ball up a wee bit.

Big if but if we kept LG I would be happy to go with him plus Handling, Caldwell and a new signing as our four strikers. Keeping LG would mean the new signing would probably not be a big name or someone of a huge pedigree but LG is suited to playing his own up front so we would only be looking for cover as opposed to someone who would feature every week.

Would fancy this team for next season:-

............................................Willia ms................................................ ....

Clancy/New RB............McPake/New CB..........Hanlon...................McGivern

............................Claros/Taiwo/Thomson (2 from 3)................................

..........Harris......................Robertson... .......................Craig...................

..........................................Griffith s................................................. ......

I think your overall assessments are pretty fair, but it's really harsh to criticise him for not playing Harris sooner, IMO.

The Sea-gull
14-05-2013, 12:01 PM
Spot on, although the poor ref decisions against THEM and Dundee Utd robbed us of four points and a top 6 finish.

I'd give him another year as i personally believe that stability is the key; outwith Utd (who Hibs would have replaced if it wasn't for poor refs) the top 6 teams prove this with with their managers being there for over a couple of seasons.

No offense but I don't really buy the poor ref chat and don't want to hide behind it. Every team will be able to point to games in the season where they were, albeit not quite as extreme as the Leigh freekick gaff, where they lost points because of poor refereeing. We just don't really notice or remember incidents coz they are not our teams. We fell short because we couldn't take any points off Ross County, we squandered a 2-0 leads at home to Motherwell and Inverness, we lost to a poor Dundee side who (at that time had only beaten one other team), we went two months without beating anyone at one point, we went four months and only got two wins in this time.

We fell just short of top 6, dissappointing esp after our start but probably acceptable given the state of last season.

JMac
14-05-2013, 12:01 PM
I for some reason made up a random expectation of 8th at the start of the year otherwise he'd be sacked, I wonder if he'll make it, in all seriousness though, he will be here next season for sure. If he wins the cup he'll be right up there in the list of club legends

The Sea-gull
14-05-2013, 12:05 PM
I think your overall assessments are pretty fair, but it's really harsh to criticise him for not playing Harris sooner, IMO.

Totally respect your opinion mate but why do you think it is harsh? We were struggling to create and he had a creative resource there not being used. Unless Harris only started showing real first team potential fairly recently.

That said, it could be argued it was good mangement to ease Harris in and maybe PF didn't really want to use him at all this season and when he did it became a case of needs must and he was pleasently surprised. Whatever, I'm glad he did play him as he has definitely given our play a dimension that wasn't there two months ago and even when the rest have played poor Harris has shone out and rarely had a bad game.

Stevie Reid
14-05-2013, 12:20 PM
Totally respect your opinion mate but why do you think it is harsh? We were struggling to create and he had a creative resource there not being used. Unless Harris only started showing real first team potential fairly recently.

That said, it could be argued it was good mangement to ease Harris in and maybe PF didn't really want to use him at all this season and when he did it became a case of needs must and he was pleasently surprised. Whatever, I'm glad he did play him as he has definitely given our play a dimension that wasn't there two months ago and even when the rest have played poor Harris has shone out and rarely had a bad game.

Of course mate, and if he had played him in December as you ished he may well have had the same impact and helped us get top 6, there is plenty reason to think that way.

I think when Harris made his debut by coming on v Dundee in the 3-0 game at ER in October he was only involved with the squad that day for the experience, and the opportunity to give him a run out at 3-0 was too good to turn down - it was four months until he featured again and it was a surprise to all of us when he came on v Killie in the 2-2 game. I would imagine in that time he has played very well in the U20 league and has grabbed his first team chance with both hands.

Had we thrown him in in December it may have worked, but it could also have backfired, and things may have turned out very differently - he doesn't seem the type to let his confidence get knocked, mind you. I think Fenlon did the right thing to address our lack of pace and creativity by lining up a deal to bring Wylde in - and by all accounts it seems that Bolton acted poorly in that situation - and I think everyone would have been excited by that signing. Done hasn't really worked out but (no offence to him) I'm delighted it hasn't, as it has seen Harris get his chance.

So overall, I think there is definitely an argument to be made that Harris could still have made such a difference had he been brought in in December - but I think it harsh to criticise Fenlon for not doing it.

brydekirk
14-05-2013, 12:24 PM
Who got the assist for Caldwells goal? :wink:

Robertson, only cause KT was knackered,, do u think it was tactical ?

Just_Jimmy
14-05-2013, 12:41 PM
If he wins the cup I don't care how long he wants to be Hibs manager. I'll never complain about his negative tactics ever again.

He can have a job for life if he wins the cup.

Prawn Sandwich
14-05-2013, 12:42 PM
I am still sceptical about Pat Fenlon's ability. I think his defining moment of his career was when Falkirk could have gone up 4-0 and didn't. The rest is history. I totally agree with his perceived strategy this season against the Yams by parking the bus and just stop getting beaten. He only played the youngsters on Sunday because he was force to. Doyle would have missed Caldwell chance even if he had found himself in the right position.

I will give Fenlon the benefit of the doubt and say he should get one more season. I hope he wakes up to the good crop of youngsters we have coming through. It's the only way to progress.

Stevie Reid
14-05-2013, 12:55 PM
Robertson, only cause KT was knackered,, do u think it was tactical ?

Regardless, still a good sub though is it not?

Against St. Mirren he brought Caldwell on at 1-1 and he scored with his second touch - at 3-2 down he brought on Wotherspoon who immediately was instrumental in setting up the equaliser.

DW did similar in the Killie 2-2 game at ER, where he had two assists. Alex Harris came on that night and made a huge impact also.

Andy74
14-05-2013, 12:58 PM
I think early season and recent weeks shows he isn't negative at all. He just had to readjust when so e of our attacking players were out of form. It's not just a team rebuild its a club and he's doing fine by me.

Frazerbob
14-05-2013, 01:03 PM
Slightly better league possition.

Another cup final

European qualification

Unbeaten against Heart with 2 wins and 3 draws

All of the above shows progress. Next season we MUST be top 6. Another bottom 6 finish is complete failure IMO.

The Sea-gull
14-05-2013, 01:44 PM
Slightly better league possition.

Another cup final

European qualification

Unbeaten against Heart with 2 wins and 3 draws

All of the above shows progress. Next season we MUST be top 6. Another bottom 6 finish is complete failure IMO.

:agree: If he doesn't get us top 6 next season then, unless there are huge mitigating circumstances, he's failed as Hibs manager and he's out as far as I'm concerned. Think he might get top 6 next year though if he can keep a few of his current crop and add to it with one or two decent players. He'll be a further year wiser in terms of the SPL and so will the players in terms of playing together as a group.

Also, don't see all of Motherwell, ICT, Ross County and St Johnstone being as strong next year. One or two of them will surely drop away so might create a space for us to get in. On the other hand, not sure about Dundee United they are an interesting one but surely Aberdeen will be a bit better under McInnes as they have freed up a lot of wages so if his signing policy is smart then he has a big opportunity there. There will be competition from otheres if a couple of teams do drop out of this year's top 6.

Retention of what we have will mean this summer should require less transfer activity than we have seen in a while. Lose too many from Claros, Thomson, Griffiths, McGivern etc and then we are back towards rebuilding territory again.

The Sea-gull
14-05-2013, 01:59 PM
I think early season and recent weeks shows he isn't negative at all. He just had to readjust when so e of our attacking players were out of form. It's not just a team rebuild its a club and he's doing fine by me.

Agree that he was forced to change tactics a little from earlier in the season due mainly to the loss of form of Wotherspoon, Cairney and Doyle. He probably wanted to continue playing a bit more positively but felt he didn't have the players to do it in the squad or the resource to bring anyone in.

He maybe could have used the younger players a bit more and a bit earlier. Only him and his coaching team will know why he didn't. Maybe they weren't ready, maybe they weren't showing enough until more recently or maybe Fenlon has only decided recently that they are ready. Who knows. Perhaps he was, with good intention, a little slow to introduce them but will maybe have learnt something a long the way.

I wouldn't say he is doing fine. I would say he is getting a mimimum pass in terms of where we should expect him to be right now but he is still passing. Unless there are extreme circumstances over the course the season, next season we must be top 6 or he has to go.

Early days given we have not even finished this season but I think he will probably get us there next time out.

Sunny1875
14-05-2013, 01:59 PM
Stability is key whereas i would not compare Pat with Alex Ferguson, Fergie was at Man Utd. for 3 years and the united fans were holding up banners at games such as
"Three years of excuses and it's still crap ... ta-ra Fergie." was displayed at Old Trafford, and many journalists and supporters called for Ferguson to be sacked.

This last weekend as we were beating Hearts, The most successful manager in British Football has retired to the adulation of the fans. A success that was built on to a large part IMO the stability and continuity he was afforded. He had the time to develop and bring through his golden generation. If PF had departed in January, would his successor have risked the young and unknown Alex Harris and his like, or would he have stuck with the older heads to steady the ship, not wanting to risk the unknown raw talent in a dogfight at the bottom end of the table?.

Last year the job was to avoid relegation , Job done, however it was achieved, we survived for another season in the SPL.

This year to continue the job and seek to progress, At the end of last season we were 11th with only 33 points and -27 GD we also had a Scottish Cup Final to attend.

One year on with two league games still to play : 9th ( two wins and we finish no less than 8th possibly 7th) with 45 points gathered upto this points and a -6 GD again we have a date at Hampden.

So has progress been made ?

J-C
14-05-2013, 02:31 PM
I agree with a lot of what has been said so far, Fenlon's main problem was to shore up a very poor midfield, he did that to an extent with 3-4 players all very similar, his main problem was to not get in an attacking central midfielder, someone who could play a killer pass and link up with Griffiths. He also never looked at the defence enough, we have 2 very slow very injury prone players, McPake and Clancy. Both struggle against pace and are never far away fro the treatment table, this has to be our main priority next season, I've watched as our defence gets torn a new one on more than one occasion this season and it's not pretty to watch.

We have Craig coming in, who can play left or centre and seems to contribute a few goals, but it's the 2 full back positions and a new partner for Hanlon I'm more worried about, stop the goals against and we may win a few more games next year.

Hibrandenburg
14-05-2013, 02:53 PM
Biggest difference between the end of this season and last is we now have a decent nucleus of a team for next season before we go into the break.

RyeSloan
14-05-2013, 02:55 PM
Slightly better league possition.

Another cup final

European qualification

Unbeaten against Heart with 2 wins and 3 draws

All of the above shows progress. Next season we MUST be top 6. Another bottom 6 finish is complete failure IMO.

Interesting that you mention Euro qualification....it's hardly been mentioned but its a normally considered a big plus.

If we had made top 6 Fenlon would have hit all targets and we were pretty close to that as well...progress for sure and another no reason not to expect another step forward next year.

Sure we were poor for a good stretch but all in all considering your list its been a pretty good season with quite a few high points to go along with the usual lows and another Scottish Cup final to boot!

The Sea-gull
14-05-2013, 03:02 PM
Biggest difference between the end of this season and last is we now have a decent nucleus of a team for next season before we go into the break.

:agree: If we manage to keep as many of our most consistent performers as possible. Nice to be able to say that we have players we actually want to keep for a change and make a few signings to compliment what we already have instead of the calls for a complete overhaul

It is arguably just as important that we try our best to re-sign as many from Griffiths, Thomson, McGivern and Claros as possible as it is for us to bring in new players. We have to do both though if we want make progress.

Liams
14-05-2013, 04:34 PM
Im all for PF! I firmly believe hes the man for the job! Its honestly so stupid how people use the "paving over the cracks" line when it comes to this season and the scottishcup final! Seriosuly when were we ever in back to bck scottish cup finals? And considering our run havnt been easy, last year; aberdean and killie and lower teams away and this year we have had killie away, hearts and the sheep, with falkirk (when we wrre made out to be the sure winners)! Im not saying we are world beaters but weve had better squads in the past 10years that havnt achieved this! Fair enough we didnt do well league cup but we didnt have a strong side out that day! This season ive had great moments and ive had great fun going to games (maybe due to the fans) compared to maybe the last 3-4 years! Onward and uupwards fenlon an the boys!!

Steve20
14-05-2013, 04:39 PM
Im all for PF! I firmly believe hes the man for the job! Its honestly so stupid how people use the "paving over the cracks" line when it comes to this season and the scottishcup final! Seriosuly when were we ever in back to bck scottish cup finals? And considering our run havnt been easy, last year; aberdean and killie and lower teams away and this year we have had killie away, hearts and the sheep, with falkirk (when we wrre made out to be the sure winners)! Im not saying we are world beaters but weve had better squads in the past 10years that havnt achieved this! Fair enough we didnt do well league cup but we didnt have a strong side out that day! This season ive had great moments and ive had great fun going to games (maybe due to the fans) compared to maybe the last 3-4 years! Onward and uupwards fenlon an the boys!!

Fair enough but reaching cup finals only means something if you actually go on and win one.

1two
14-05-2013, 04:42 PM
Last August I would have accepted a 9th place finish if it we were getting another shot at the cup in may

Not sure if this makes it a good season though

JeMeSouviens
14-05-2013, 04:47 PM
I think the OP is bang on in terms of our league performance but I think it's a bit unfair to put so little emphasis on the cup run. We almost got to the final by accident last year (and then wished we hadn't) but you can't say that this season. I think a considerable chunk of our focus has been reserved for the cup in an attempt to put right last year's disaster and our league form has probably suffered at least a bit as a result.

Northernhibee
14-05-2013, 04:55 PM
Fair enough but reaching cup finals only means something if you actually go on and win one.

That's a bit unfair, it gives the fans a big day out to Hampden to show support for the team with the big pre-match displays but more importantly it'll bring a shedload of cash into the club at a time when we need it.

To beat three SPL teams and make one of the best comebacks in Hibstory to get to the final is a very good achievement.