Margaret Thatcher has died

[Beefster]

12 May 1985 Bradford City Football Stadium fire (40)
22 Aug 1985 Manchester Airport fire (55)
6 Mar 1987 Herald of Free Enterprise sank (187)
18 Nov 1987 King's Cross underground station fire (31)
6 Jul 1988 Piper Alpha North Sea oil rig fire (167)
12 Dec 1988 Clapham rail crash (35)
8 Jan 1989 East Midlands Kegworth air crash (47)
15 Apr 1989 Hillsborough Football Stadium disaster (95)
20 Aug 1989 Marchioness pleasure boat sank (51)

She didn't give a toss what happened on her watch, just as long as the money kept pouring in.

Im led to believe that she was seen lurking in the shadows at all of these disasters. I think it's very telling that there were no disasters before or after she was in power.

[clerriehibs]

The point i was trying to make about Wilson and pit closures is if you have a really massive cake and eat a load of it but leave a decent sized piece left for everyone afterwards...nah, this metaphor isnt going to work :greengrin There was an excellent doc on bbc4 not so long ago, i'll try to find a link. Basically theres a difference between trimming something selfevidently bloated, and killing it off completely.

Right to buy basically meant councils were forced to sell houses at 60% discounts, which proved massively popular, inevitably. The new owners were then encouraged to borrow using their homes as collateral, driving an unsustainable debt bubble and a crisis in housing, homelessness which we're still living with. The working man swapped the security of being a tenant for short term financial gain which he mostly spent at B&Q trying to be middle class. This might have been OK if a few thousand homes were involved, it was the scale of the selloff that has decimated the stock. Im a bit of a housing policy geek admittedly but its the policy that still makes me most angry.

Don't forget the subsequent bloating of house prices because of this policy, leaving many thousands unable to get on to the property ladder at all. The big winners were the \"property developers". They've bought swathes of the ex-council stock, and have been profiteering massively out of it. The end result, because of the necessity to subsidise low- or non-income families, was higher rented housing costs to the tax payer than it ever was before.

[clerriehibs]

It's depressing (but unsurprisingly typical) that those who hate Thatcher so much are unable to articulate a response which may convince others of the merit of their argument.

If someone comes to my house, cuts off the electricity, dumps rubbish bags in my garden and refuses me the right to bury my dead father and grandmother, I'd have done more than baton charge them, that's for damn sure.

If someone refuses to negotiate, they don't leave you much option.

EDIT: Congrat's to Hibsbollah, who provides the example to prove the rule :wink:


Nothing much articulate about that red-top tirade, is there.

Employers, private or government, are as likely as union members to refuse to negotiate. The right to withdraw labour has been an effective tool over many years to improve take-home pay and working conditions. Without strong unions over the years, we'd have ended up where we are now a long time ago; "normal" employees with no pay rises now or for the foreseeable, while boardroom pay continues to balloon - recession or no recession, austerity or no austerity.

[johnbc70]

rubbish piling up in the streets was it?

"In the centre of London and other major cities, huge piles of rotting rubbish piled up, overrun with rats and a serious health hazard. Inside government, ordinary work almost ground to a halt." From here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6721709.stm).

[Hibernia Na Eir]

could be much fun at Trafalgar Square this Saturday ;)

here's a sample of things to come.....

m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/police-arrests-thatcher-death-parties

[lyonhibs]

What really is surprising me (and saddening me a little) in light of this news is the amount of people from my generation who are celebrating this woman's death. I'm not old enough to have experienced the Iron rule of Thatcher and I won't join in with the somewhat abhorrent reaction from some.

I understand she destroyed communities, I understand the devastation she brought to industry and particularly mining in Scotland and the North of England but the way some folk are going on you'd think this woman is equatable to the likes of Hitler, Mladic, Stalin, Blokhin or Bin Laden (to name but a few).

I appreciate the polar views and it's hard to say people are crossing lines when you've not experience their grievances but there isn't half a lot of bravado, overstated revisionism and downright idiocy emerging in the wake of this.

:agree:

Chuck in a lot of 30 second political experts, and you have a mix that has created a lot of people of our age group acting like ********s with the whole "Dance on her grave" just because it's seen as the "done" thing.

FWIW, my Dad, was he still with us, would be breaking out a fine single malt over this, of that I'm sure. Then again, he would be entirely justified in doing so. I held no admiration or indeed emotion of any variety for Thatcher.

Out of interest, how many on here either lost their own job or saw a direct family member lose a job as part of Thatcher 80's crusade against state subsidised primary industries?

On a further point, if Cameron and Osborne keep this up, the hate and vitriol that will meet them croaking will be similar if not more fierce than Thatcher.

[Betty Boop]

The Issue is Thatcher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ETqOvBKnKdk#!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Im led to believe that she was seen lurking in the shadows at all of these disasters. I think it's very telling that there were no disasters before or after she was in power.

You do know these disasters were attributed to lack of regulation, cost cutting and profit at all costs. Thatcher's government promoted those values - not quite so cartoony if you consider those lives might not have been lost with a government that wasn't so laisse faire.

Take The Herald of Free Enterprise. Safety measures were deliberately overlooked, so that the ship could make more crossings a day. A culture of recklessness was exposed at P&O. This same malaise was identified in the other disasters.

At Hillsborough the oxygen tank in the first aid room was empty. Had government been more focussed on regulation this would have been checked.

[hibsbollah]

Don't forget the subsequent bloating of house prices because of this policy, leaving many thousands unable to get on to the property ladder at all. The big winners were the \"property developers". They've bought swathes of the ex-council stock, and have been profiteering massively out of it. The end result, because of the necessity to subsidise low- or non-income families, was higher rented housing costs to the tax payer than it ever was before.

:agree: very true.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree:

Chuck in a lot of 30 second political experts, and you have a mix that has created a lot of people of our age group acting like ********s with the whole "Dance on her grave" just because it's seen as the "done" thing.

FWIW, my Dad, was he still with us, would be breaking out a fine single malt over this, of that I'm sure. Then again, he would be entirely justified in doing so. I held no admiration or indeed emotion of any variety for Thatcher.

Out of interest, how many on here either lost their own job or saw a direct family member lose a job as part of Thatcher 80's crusade against state subsidised primary industries?

On a further point, if Cameron and Osborne keep this up, the hate and vitriol that will meet them croaking will be similar if not more fierce than Thatcher.

If one of us suffers we all suffer. It wasn't about the individual, it was about society as a whole. Thatcher didn't recognise society - those who stood against her did.

Maybe some of the values people held then seem old fashioned or silly now - it's important to judge what went on by how people thought at the time. Whether those values are still fashionable now is debatable, but to some people they will always form the basis of what they believe to be right.

"Tramp the Dirt Down" tells you how people felt. The woman was despised, maybe history has been kinder to her. But history gets written by the winners.

[hibsbollah]

:agree:

Chuck in a lot of 30 second political experts, and you have a mix that has created a lot of people of our age group acting like ********s with the whole "Dance on her grave" just because it's seen as the "done" thing.

FWIW, my Dad, was he still with us, would be breaking out a fine single malt over this, of that I'm sure. Then again, he would be entirely justified in doing so. I held no admiration or indeed emotion of any variety for Thatcher.

Out of interest, how many on here either lost their own job or saw a direct family member lose a job as part of Thatcher 80's crusade against state subsidised primary industries?

On a further point, if Cameron and Osborne keep this up, the hate and vitriol that will meet them croaking will be similar if not more fierce than Thatcher.

My hand is up :agree: but to echo Filled Rolls its about wider society; you're allowed to be outraged by Thatcherism even if you weren't personally affected by it, don't you think?

[lyonhibs]

My hand is up :agree: but to echo Filled Rolls its about wider society; you're allowed to be outraged by Thatcherism even if you weren't personally affected by it, don't you think?


Yes of course. I just find my Facebook feed (and I daresay a few posts on this thread, not your own I hasten to add) rammed full of misspelt monosyllabic slavering tirades from people younger than I am, who for the other 99% of the time show no political inclinations whatsoever and indeed probably did not even vote last time out.

It's one thing to be far from upset that Thatcher has croaked, quite another to be someone whose knowledge of Thatcher extends to what one can find in books and on the internet - as opposed to being as Filled Rolls says, there at the time - and be actively rejoicing in her death.

[hibsbollah]

Yes of course. I just find my Facebook feed (and I daresay a few posts on this thread, not your own I hasten to add) rammed full of misspelt monosyllabic slavering tirades from people younger than I am, who for the other 99% of the time show no political inclinations whatsoever and indeed probably did not even vote last time out.

It's one thing to be far from upset that Thatcher has croaked, quite another to be someone whose knowledge of Thatcher extends to what one can find in books and on the internet - as opposed to being as Filled Rolls says, there at the time - and be actively rejoicing in her death.

:agree: fair enough. Theres been a lot of guff on Facebook since she croaked.

[Kato]

Out of interest, how many on here either lost their own job or saw a direct family member lose a job as part of Thatcher 80's crusade against state subsidised primary industries?


Two hands up from me for that one as I lost two jobs and was eventually blackballed from my trade as I refused to work on her abomination that is Torness (The thought that that so called power station which is actually a bomb factory will be poisoning this area for millennia is just too much.)

Also a few relatives lost jobs and many mates, some who just didn't have a chance and a couple who gave up the ghost to smack etc - the desperation and palpable feeling that the ramping up of the Cold War would spill over into the real thing tainted her decade for far too many.

===Notice no mention of the word hate from me. Thatcherism is a far worse legacy than the actual person's life and death, too many politicos imagine that her's is the only route and have allowed the press to bully them into adopting her ideology. The lack of imagination, "blame the victim, punish the poor", among her successors in the Tory Party is a disgrace

[Kato]

Theres a lot of guff on Facebook

Fixed that there. :wink:

[Corstorphine Hibby]

One thing I never got, which I don't think has been mentioned so far on this thread, was her supposed attractiveness as a woman. Foreign presidents, cabinet ministers, etc, drooling.

Personally, though I didn't think she was wrong absolutely all of the time, and don't think of her as an evil bitch, I found her revolting as a person. Everything about her, the way she spoke, her uniquely patronising manner, made me cringe.

Was that just me? Would I have needed to go to a boarding school with matrons and that to understand the so-called "appeal"? :dunno:

She was a stunningly attractive woman, even in her later years :drool:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

My hand is up :agree:

i'll stick my hand up too. My old man was on strike for at least a few weeks round about 82/83 IIRC. It wasnae much fun being in that house at that time I can tell you.

[ronaldo7]

I was surprised to hear that Harold Wilson closed almost three times as many pits as Thatcher.

And the reasons for the closures?

Run out of coal?

Unworkable?

He had alot on his plate at the time did oor Harold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson

[Corstorphine Hibby]

You do know these disasters were attributed to lack of regulation, cost cutting and profit at all costs. Thatcher's government promoted those values - not quite so cartoony if you consider those lives might not have been lost with a government that wasn't so laisse faire.

Take The Herald of Free Enterprise. Safety measures were deliberately overlooked, so that the ship could make more crossings a day. A culture of recklessness was exposed at P&O. This same malaise was identified in the other disasters.

At Hillsborough the oxygen tank in the first aid room was empty. Had government been more focussed on regulation this would have been checked.

You're still accepting that everything your read in Private Eye is gospel I see FR ? When are you and Ian Hislop planning on celebrating your Civil Partnership ? :hug:

[clerriehibs]

Yes of course. I just find my Facebook feed (and I daresay a few posts on this thread, not your own I hasten to add) rammed full of misspelt monosyllabic slavering tirades from people younger than I am, who for the other 99% of the time show no political inclinations whatsoever and indeed probably did not even vote last time out.

It's one thing to be far from upset that Thatcher has croaked, quite another to be someone whose knowledge of Thatcher extends to what one can find in books and on the internet - as opposed to being as Filled Rolls says, there at the time - and be actively rejoicing in her death.

Misspelt; possibly. Monosyllabic; highly unlikely.

[Northernhibee]

:agree:
Quoted the wrong bit apart from the 'hands up if you saw a family member....

Close family member was working over 70 hours a week just to keep a roof over our heads and no more. Recently found out that they had undergone bullying in the workplace and stayed there because they wouldn't have had much chance of finding another job at the time and they had considered suicide at the time.

**** the Tories.

[Sir David Gray]

I know she polarised opinion and she upset a lot of people but there's some truly disgusting posts being put on this thread, in my opinion of course.

I also saw the scenes from Glasgow on Sky News earlier, where the people there were unfurling banners, spraying champagne and singing songs and I personally thought that was quite shameful.

People are entitled to hold their own opinions about Margaret Thatcher and they are well within their rights to dislike her and I certainly wouldn't demand that anyone mourns someone's death if they didn't like them.

However it's one thing to choose not to mourn someone's death and another to actively celebrate it.

As others have mentioned earlier in the thread, we're not exactly talking about Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden here. You may not have liked her or the way that she ran the country when she was in power but she was hardly a mass murderer or a rapist or a terrorist.

Since I was only 2 years old when she left as Prime Minister, I have no feelings either way towards her but I would like to think that if someone I didn't really like was to die then I wouldn't lower myself by going in front of the cameras and publicly rejoicing at the fact that they're dead.

The guy who was interviewed in Glasgow on Sky News said that the fact these people are having the parties says more about Thatcher than it does about them.

Personally, I beg to differ. I think they came across as absolute yobs.

[Saorsa]

I know she polarised opinion and she upset a lot of people but there's some truly disgusting posts being put on this thread, in my opinion of course.

I also saw the scenes from Glasgow on Sky News earlier, where the people there were unfurling banners, spraying champagne and singing songs and I personally thought that was quite shameful.

People are entitled to hold their own opinions about Margaret Thatcher and they are well within their rights to dislike her and I certainly wouldn't demand that anyone mourns someone's death if they didn't like them.

However it's one thing to choose not to mourn someone's death and another to actively celebrate it.

As others have mentioned earlier in the thread, we're not exactly talking about Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden here. You may not have liked her or the way that she ran the country when she was in power but she was hardly a mass murderer or a rapist or a terrorist.

Since I was only 2 years old when she left as Prime Minister, I have no feelings either way towards her but I would like to think that if someone I didn't really like was to die then I wouldn't lower myself by going in front of the cameras and publicly rejoicing at the fact that they're dead.

The guy who was interviewed in Glasgow on Sky News said that the fact these people are having the parties says more about Thatcher than it does about them.

Personally, I beg to differ. I think they came across as absolute yobs.I'm sure I'll be able tae live with masel

She's deid http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Margaret_Thatcher_cropped2.png/75px-Margaret_Thatcher_cropped2.png :agree:

[Beefster]

You do know these disasters were attributed to lack of regulation, cost cutting and profit at all costs. Thatcher's government promoted those values - not quite so cartoony if you consider those lives might not have been lost with a government that wasn't so laisse faire.

Take The Herald of Free Enterprise. Safety measures were deliberately overlooked, so that the ship could make more crossings a day. A culture of recklessness was exposed at P&O. This same malaise was identified in the other disasters.

At Hillsborough the oxygen tank in the first aid room was empty. Had government been more focussed on regulation this would have been checked.

Regulations are needed to check an oxygen tank is fit for purpose?

The Herald of Free Enterprise was caused by a whole host of factors, including the design of the ship (the ship was commissioned under a Labour government - maybe we should be pinning the blame on Callaghan). Ultimately though, regulations are unlikely to stop someone forgetting to close bow doors.

You may well have a general point about the Thatcher government's attitude to regulation but using hundreds of deaths, due to a wide variety of reasons and which led to prosecutions in a lot of cases, isn't it - any more than me saying that Blair is directly responsible for Ladbroke Grove.

[marinello59]

You do know these disasters were attributed to lack of regulation, cost cutting and profit at all costs. Thatcher's government promoted those values - not quite so cartoony if you consider those lives might not have been lost with a government that wasn't so laisse faire.

Take The Herald of Free Enterprise. Safety measures were deliberately overlooked, so that the ship could make more crossings a day. A culture of recklessness was exposed at P&O. This same malaise was identified in the other disasters.

At Hillsborough the oxygen tank in the first aid room was empty. Had government been more focussed on regulation this would have been checked.

I can't let the Herald of Free Enterprise nonsense go there FR. You seem to be ignorant to the degree of autonomy given to ships crews via the vessels Master when it comes to the safety of the vessel. What happened that night was down to reckless behaviour but most seafarers I spoke to afterwards were more shocked at the actions of the crew that night than anything else. As an aside,at the time of the disaster the ship was owned by Townsend Thoresen, not P and O.
A tragic night and something that gave most of us who have earned our living at sea sleepless nights. I dislike Thatcher for plenty of reasons and like others here found myself unemployed several times during her time in power as the Merchant Navy shrunk dramatically. But using the deaths that night to score further political points is simply wrong.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I can't let the Herald of Free Enterprise nonsense go there FR. You seem to be ignorant to the degree of autonomy given to ships crews via the vessels Master when it comes to the safety of the vessel. What happened that night was down to reckless behaviour but most seafarers I spoke to afterwards were more shocked at the actions of the crew that night than anything else. As an aside,at the time of the disaster the ship was owned by Townsend Thoresen, not P and O.
A tragic night and something that gave most of us who have earned our living at sea sleepless nights. I dislike Thatcher for plenty of reasons and like others here found myself unemployed several times during her time in power as the Merchant Navy shrunk dramatically. But using the deaths that night to score further political points is simply wrong.

:agree: And too long to go into what happened to cause Piper Alpha but in my opinion it was the same malaise and attitude. Ocean Odyessey about a month later as well. Piper Alpha still the most harrowing night of my life.

[Kato]

she was hardly a mass murderer or a rapist or a terrorist.



Yeah but two out of three ain't bad.

[Hiber-nation]

I'm with Billy Bragg on this - despised the old boot with a passion but all the partying is just silly.

[clerriehibs]

I know she polarised opinion and she upset a lot of people but there's some truly disgusting posts being put on this thread, in my opinion of course.

I also saw the scenes from Glasgow on Sky News earlier, where the people there were unfurling banners, spraying champagne and singing songs and I personally thought that was quite shameful.

People are entitled to hold their own opinions about Margaret Thatcher and they are well within their rights to dislike her and I certainly wouldn't demand that anyone mourns someone's death if they didn't like them.

However it's one thing to choose not to mourn someone's death and another to actively celebrate it.

As others have mentioned earlier in the thread, we're not exactly talking about Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden here. You may not have liked her or the way that she ran the country when she was in power but she was hardly a mass murderer or a rapist or a terrorist.

Since I was only 2 years old when she left as Prime Minister, I have no feelings either way towards her but I would like to think that if someone I didn't really like was to die then I wouldn't lower myself by going in front of the cameras and publicly rejoicing at the fact that they're dead.

The guy who was interviewed in Glasgow on Sky News said that the fact these people are having the parties says more about Thatcher than it does about them.

Personally, I beg to differ. I think they came across as absolute yobs.

Perhaps the "other side" shouldn't be ramming it down our throats how utterly wonderful they think she was? They're celebrating her death in their way - why shouldn't people who believe in society (she didn't) celebrate the death of a tyrant in theirs?

[marinello59]

Perhaps the "other side" shouldn't be ramming it down our throats how utterly wonderful they think she was? They're celebrating her death in their way - why shouldn't people who believe in society (she didn't) celebrate the death of a tyrant in theirs?

I agree with you up to a point. If her supporters are going to eulogise her then those of us who disagreed with her politics are free to make the counter arguments.
I will admit to being somewhat hypocritical here. The first text I received after her death was announced as from Mrs M59 asking if I had a bottle of champagne in the fridge as I have been saying for years that I would have a few when the day eventually came. Maybe age has mellowed me though. Maybe I just felt that I should behave better in front of my 11 year old son. I still feel the same anger at a lot of the things she did but when it came to, it revelling in her death just seemed wrong.
If we really did believe that they were the nasty party and that there was such a thing as society maybe giving in to blind hatred is really another victory for them.

[hibsbollah]

I'm with Billy Bragg on this - despised the old boot with a passion but all the partying is just silly.

Bragg put some respectful stuff about Thatchers political legacy on his facebook yesterday and got ridiculous abuse from right wing trolls as a result. I doubt whether the Daily Hate will get all outraged about that, though.

[YehButNoBut]

Good piece by Russell Brand on Thatch

http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher

[YehButNoBut]

Also a great piece by Morrissey on Thatcher, sums up my feelings exactly.

The difficulty with giving a comment on Margaret Thatcher's (http://amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060170565?ie=UTF8&tag=louthawar-21&link_code=em1&camp=2502&creative=11114&creativeASIN=0060170565&adid=38e2cf56-5cfa-45b4-a7ff-3aba5cad3323) death to the British tabloids is that, no matter how calmly and measuredly you speak, the comment must be reported as an “outburst” or an “explosive attack” if your view is not pro-establishment. If you reference “the Malvinas”, it will be switched to “the Falklands”, and your “Thatcher” will be softened to a “Maggie.” This is generally how things are structured in a non-democratic society. Thatcher's name must be protected not because of all the wrong that she had done, but because the people around her allowed her to do it, and therefore any criticism of Thatcher throws a dangerously absurd light on the entire machinery of British politics.

Thatcher was not a strong or formidable leader. She simply did not give a **** about people, and this coarseness has been neatly transformed into bravery by the British press who are attempting to re-write history in order to protect patriotism. As a result, any opposing view is stifled or ridiculed, whereas we must all endure the obligatory praise for Thatcher from David Cameron (http://amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0007436424?ie=UTF8&tag=louthawar-21&link_code=em1&camp=2502&creative=11114&creativeASIN=0007436424&adid=138569ac-6ccb-4be9-a908-35a66912c03a) without any suggestion from the BBC that his praise just might be an outburst of pro-Thatcher extremism from someone whose praise might possibly protect his own current interests.

The fact that Thatcher ignited the British public into street-riots, violent demonstrations and a social disorder previously unseen in British history is completely ignored by David Cameron in 2013. In truth, of course, no British politician has ever been more despised by the British people than Margaret Thatcher. Thatcher's funeral on Wednesday will be heavily policed for fear that the British tax-payer will want to finally express their view of Thatcher.

They are certain to be tear-gassed out of sight by the police.

United Kingdom? Syria? China? What's the difference?

Morrissey
9 April 2013

[Betty Boop]

MPs able to claim £3,750 to return to Parliament, for Thatcher tribute, 10 million for the State sponsored funeral. Austerity measures, you're having a laugh!

[Sylar]

MPs able to claim £3,750 to return to Parliament, for Thatcher tribute, 10 million for the State sponsored funeral. Austerity measures, you're having a laugh!

It's not a pleasant place but for once, I find myself agreeing with you.

She didn't give 2 hoots about the State and worked her hardest to abolish it in many ways and now it funds the funeral and grants expenses for attendance.

Utterly mind-boggling when you consider the ludicrousness of some of the austerity measures being implemented...

[clerriehibs]

I agree with you up to a point. If her supporters are going to eulogise her then those of us who disagreed with her politics are free to make the counter arguments.
I will admit to being somewhat hypocritical here. The first text I received after her death was announced as from Mrs M59 asking if I had a bottle of champagne in the fridge as I have been saying for years that I would have a few when the day eventually came. Maybe age has mellowed me though. Maybe I just felt that I should behave better in front of my 11 year old son. I still feel the same anger at a lot of the things she did but when it came to, it revelling in her death just seemed wrong.
If we really did believe that they were the nasty party and that there was such a thing as society maybe giving in to blind hatred is really another victory for them.
I'm with you on all that. Bizarrely, even just at the weekend, I was wondering what loud party music I'd play when she popped hwr cloga, and wondering about buying bunting. Not really coincidence; the current incumbents are a daily reminder of her. Push comes to shove, I haven't partied (yet?). But i won't criticise those that do.

[yeezus.]

“Parliament is being used today for narrow political gain by the Prime Minister, as a platform for his Party’s ideology not just eulogy. He gave himself away on Monday. After properly measured reactions from Miliband, Clegg, Blair, Brown and Major late in the afternoon David Cameron issued an “updated tribute” alongside his announcement about recalling Parliament: “Margaret Thatcher didn’t just lead our country, she saved our country … Taking on the union barons. Privatising industry. Unleashing enterprise. Rescuing the economy. Letting people buy their council homes …she took a country that was on its knees and made Britain stand tall again”. This is partisan, divisive and diminishes the Prime Minister’s Office. He’s wrong to recall Parliament, and wrong to hijack it in this way. I will play no part and I will stay away, with other things to do at home in the constituency.”

[Beefster]

Bragg put some respectful stuff about Thatchers political legacy on his facebook yesterday and got ridiculous abuse from right wing trolls as a result. I doubt whether the Daily Hate will get all outraged about that, though.

I think the nastiness on both sides is pathetic.

Bragg doesn't help himself though - respectful statements about nothing to celebrate which win him a lot of respect and then plays "Ding, Dong" at his concert that night. The Daily Mail (or any newspaper) hasn't reported that either AFAIK.

[Beefster]

MPs able to claim £3,750 to return to Parliament, for Thatcher tribute

Ridiculous.

[yeezus.]

Also a great piece by Morrissey on Thatcher, sums up my feelings exactly.

The difficulty with giving a comment on Margaret Thatcher's (http://amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060170565?ie=UTF8&tag=louthawar-21&link_code=em1&camp=2502&creative=11114&creativeASIN=0060170565&adid=38e2cf56-5cfa-45b4-a7ff-3aba5cad3323) death to the British tabloids is that, no matter how calmly and measuredly you speak, the comment must be reported as an “outburst” or an “explosive attack” if your view is not pro-establishment. If you reference “the Malvinas”, it will be switched to “the Falklands”, and your “Thatcher” will be softened to a “Maggie.” This is generally how things are structured in a non-democratic society. Thatcher's name must be protected not because of all the wrong that she had done, but because the people around her allowed her to do it, and therefore any criticism of Thatcher throws a dangerously absurd light on the entire machinery of British politics.

Thatcher was not a strong or formidable leader. She simply did not give a **** about people, and this coarseness has been neatly transformed into bravery by the British press who are attempting to re-write history in order to protect patriotism. As a result, any opposing view is stifled or ridiculed, whereas we must all endure the obligatory praise for Thatcher from David Cameron (http://amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0007436424?ie=UTF8&tag=louthawar-21&link_code=em1&camp=2502&creative=11114&creativeASIN=0007436424&adid=138569ac-6ccb-4be9-a908-35a66912c03a) without any suggestion from the BBC that his praise just might be an outburst of pro-Thatcher extremism from someone whose praise might possibly protect his own current interests.

The fact that Thatcher ignited the British public into street-riots, violent demonstrations and a social disorder previously unseen in British history is completely ignored by David Cameron in 2013. In truth, of course, no British politician has ever been more despised by the British people than Margaret Thatcher. Thatcher's funeral on Wednesday will be heavily policed for fear that the British tax-payer will want to finally express their view of Thatcher.

They are certain to be tear-gassed out of sight by the police.

United Kingdom? Syria? China? What's the difference?

Morrissey
9 April 2013

He is some man. Love him!

[IndieHibby]

I wouldn't have thought a science degree was compatible with hyperbole. Unless it was political science. Hyperbole? Really? So in my entire LIFETIME, I have seen, heard and read less than 1000 articles about Thatcher and the 80's (good and bad)? Having not counted, I can't be sure, but I wouldn't be so rude as to claim hyperbole if someone else had said the same thing.

[IndieHibby]

The point i was trying to make about Wilson and pit closures is if you have a really massive cake and eat a load of it but leave a decent sized piece left for everyone afterwards...nah, this metaphor isnt going to work :greengrin There was an excellent doc on bbc4 not so long ago, i'll try to find a link. Basically theres a difference between trimming something selfevidently bloated, and killing it off completely.

Right to buy basically meant councils were forced to sell houses at 60% discounts, which proved massively popular, inevitably. The new owners were then encouraged to borrow using their homes as collateral, driving an unsustainable debt bubble and a crisis in housing, homelessness which we're still living with. The working man swapped the security of being a tenant for short term financial gain which he mostly spent at B&Q trying to be middle class. This might have been OK if a few thousand homes were involved, it was the scale of the selloff that has decimated the stock. Im a bit of a housing policy geek admittedly but its the policy that still makes me most angry. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I still see it as better to encourage personal responsibility (i.e. home ownership) rather than tenancy; particularly for establishing a family inheritance amongst those who would otherwise not have access to accumulated wealth of any description. I'm not disagreeing with the loss of the social housing stock, however.

[CropleyWasGod]

MPs able to claim £3,750 to return to Parliament, for Thatcher tribute, 10 million for the State sponsored funeral. Austerity measures, you're having a laugh!

They won't all claim that.

It's expenses, remember.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

MPs able to claim £3,750 to return to Parliament, for Thatcher tribute, 10 million for the State sponsored funeral. Austerity measures, you're having a laugh!

I heard that figure as well and would love to know how it's calculated. I can't imagine how a day trip to London could be that expensive.

[CropleyWasGod]

I heard that figure as well and would love to know how it's calculated. I can't imagine how a day trip to London could be that expensive.

It will be an upper limit. As with all expenses claims, it will have to be vouched.

Isn't this the Easter recess, so many MP's may have to travel back from abroad.

[Killiehibbie]

I heard that figure as well and would love to know how it's calculated. I can't imagine how a day trip to London could be that expensive.They should be given expenses equal to the cheapest public transport ticket from their home address, if they really must be reimbursed. If they happen to be out of the country i'm sure their wages more than cover the cost or don't they ever use their own money for anything.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

It will be an upper limit. As with all expenses claims, it will have to be vouched.

Isn't this the Easter recess, so many MP's may have to travel back from abroad.

If they're out the country I guess it makes more sense. Still makes a good headline though.

[LeighLoyal]

I'm with Billy Bragg on this - despised the old boot with a passion but all the partying is just silly.



Bragg is another of these 80's champagne socialists. Made his money and is sitting pretty.

[CropleyWasGod]

Bragg is another of these 80's champagne socialists. Made his money and is sitting pretty.

Exemplify.

[LeighLoyal]

Exemplify.



Lives in a £2m manor house near a qaint Dorset village. So it's leftie of the manor, do as I say not as I do, Bragg. I'm sure he'd take in a few poor Maggie victims into one his 8 spare rooms. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Lives in a £2m manor house near a qaint Dorset village. So it's leftie of the manor, do as I say not as I do, Bragg. I'm sure he'd take in a few poor Maggie victims into one his 8 spare rooms. :greengrin

Do you know what he does with his money? Do you know, for example, about the music projects he's involved in with local schoolkids?

And, does his relative wealth preclude him from having socialist principles?

[LeighLoyal]

Do you know what he does with his money? Do you know, for example, about the music projects he's involved in with local schoolkids?

And, does his relative wealth preclude him from having socialist principles?




So he's torturing some local kids with his god awful warbling and tuneless strumming and you think that's good? He should be gagged like Caconofix in the Asterix comics for that bleedin din! :rolleyes:

The man can have his views but he's no clue about the reality of Britain today from his idyllic and secluded Dorset manor house.

[clerriehibs]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I still see it as better to encourage personal responsibility (i.e. home ownership) rather than tenancy; particularly for establishing a family inheritance amongst those who would otherwise not have access to accumulated wealth of any description. I'm not disagreeing with the loss of the social housing stock, however.

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways.

The housing stock wasn't sold off for any honourable notion of getting people into home ownership, however it was painted at the time. Like so many right-wing schemes, it was simply a vehicle to move public ownership into private hands, all the while making money for government coffers (council funding was capped, so like it or not, they were forced into selling the family silver).

And thousands in italics would suggest multiple thousands, not just anything greater than one thousand. Even then, I'd doubt it was possible to read one thousand quality articles unless you were working in politics. I wouldn't bother including anything in the Sun, Mirror, Express, Mail, Evening Standard, Record ... so, hyperbole, yes.

[clerriehibs]

It's depressing (but unsurprisingly typical) that those who hate Thatcher so much are unable to articulate a response which may convince others of the merit of their argument.

If someone comes to my house, cuts off the electricity, dumps rubbish bags in my garden and refuses me the right to bury my dead father and grandmother, I'd have done more than baton charge them, that's for damn sure.

If someone refuses to negotiate, they don't leave you much option.

EDIT: Congrat's to Hibsbollah, who provides the example to prove the rule :wink:

paragraph 2 ... hyperbole.

[Hiber-nation]

So he's torturing some local kids with his god awful warbling and tuneless strumming and you think that's good? He should be gagged like Caconofix in the Asterix comics for that bleedin din! :rolleyes:

The man can have his views but he's no clue about the reality of Britain today from his idyllic and secluded Dorset manor house.

Shocking. He should be living in't cahdboard box at side of road.

[CropleyWasGod]

So he's torturing some local kids with his god awful warbling and tuneless strumming and you think that's good? He should be gagged like Caconofix in the Asterix comics for that bleedin din! :rolleyes:

The man can have his views but he's no clue about the reality of Britain today from his idyllic and secluded Dorset manor house.

I hear he does a rather good version of Follow Follow.

[--------]

12 May 1985 Bradford City Football Stadium fire (40)
22 Aug 1985 Manchester Airport fire (55)
6 Mar 1987 Herald of Free Enterprise sank (187)
18 Nov 1987 King's Cross underground station fire (31)
6 Jul 1988 Piper Alpha North Sea oil rig fire (167)
12 Dec 1988 Clapham rail crash (35)
8 Jan 1989 East Midlands Kegworth air crash (47)
15 Apr 1989 Hillsborough Football Stadium disaster (95)
20 Aug 1989 Marchioness pleasure boat sank (51)

She didn't give a toss what happened on her watch, just as long as the money kept pouring in.



Im led to believe that she was seen lurking in the shadows at all of these disasters. I think it's very telling that there were no disasters before or after she was in power.

I believe she was also responsible for the assassination of John Lennon (nobody's all bad :wink:); the eruption of Mt St Helen's; the AIDS epidemic; the shooting-down of Korean Airlines Flight 007; the bombing of the US Embassy in Beirut; the Bhopal chemical disaster; the assassination of Indira Gandhi; Chernobyl: the Ethiopian famine; the hole in the ozone layer; Lockerbie; the Exxon Valdez; and the massacre in Tian-an-men Square.

She's the Tory version of Macavity the Mystery Cat, you think?

Actually, she probably WAS responsible in part for a number of things on that list - of friends of hers were, and she wouldn't have exerted herself one inch to do anything about them, or to see that the like didn't happen again. The country we live in today was largely moulded by Thatcher, and her successors - Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron - with little or no resistance from any of the opposition parties.

In my opinion anyone who continues to vote for or work for a New Labour Party moulded by Tony Blair - one of Thatcher's most loyal imitators and admirers shouldn't be on here shooting off about Thatcher herself.

I forgot to mention Mad Cow Disease - but she may very well actually have been responsible for THAT. :devil:

[LeighLoyal]

I hear he does a rather good version of Follow Follow.




No doubt he'd do a sash for the cash at the Loudon. Ben Elton as warm up act. Maggie didn't just make city tossers rich.


:rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

No doubt he'd do a sash for the cash at the Loudon. Ben Elton as warm up act. Maggie didn't just make city tossers rich.


:rolleyes:


Don't forget Steve Nallon, too, did well during the Thatcher years. The *******.

[CropleyWasGod]

Don't forget Steve Nallon, too, did well during the Thatcher years. The *******.

Ken.

They should all just fall on their swords now and throw themselves into the same pit as Maggie.

[RyeSloan]

They should be given expenses equal to the cheapest public transport ticket from their home address, if they really must be reimbursed. If they happen to be out of the country i'm sure their wages more than cover the cost or don't they ever use their own money for anything.

If I was abroad on holiday and my employer needed me to return at short notice I would be fully expecting them to cover the cost of that...why would or should MP's be any different?

[Killiehibbie]

If I was abroad on holiday and my employer needed me to return at short notice I would be fully expecting them to cover the cost of that...why would or should MP's be any different?
I wouldn't think anybody is being forced to attend but if they feel they want to let them pay their own travel.

[IndieHibby]

paragraph 2 ... hyperbole. How is that an exaggeration? Were there not power cuts? Did rubbish not pile up in the street, uncollected?

[CropleyWasGod]

How is that an exaggeration? Were there not power cuts? Did rubbish not pile up in the street, uncollected?

The power cuts were in Heath's time.

Or have I missed the point?

[IndieHibby]

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways.

The housing stock wasn't sold off for any honourable notion of getting people into home ownership, however it was painted at the time. Like so many right-wing schemes, it was simply a vehicle to move public ownership into private hands, all the while making money for government coffers (council funding was capped, so like it or not, they were forced into selling the family silver).

And thousands in italics would suggest multiple thousands, not just anything greater than one thousand. Even then, I'd doubt it was possible to read one thousand quality articles unless you were working in politics. I wouldn't bother including anything in the Sun, Mirror, Express, Mail, Evening Standard, Record ... so, hyperbole, yes. So, now that you realise that I was talking about everything I have read/heard/watched, rather than admit you were wrong to say I had exaggerated, you discount a portion of what I have read/head/watched as invalid, then reclaim your point about it being as an exaggeration of the true number? Okay then :aok:

[IndieHibby]

The power cuts were in Heath's time.

Or have I missed the point? But the miner's strikes caused the cuts, no?

[hibsbollah]

Lives in a £2m manor house near a qaint Dorset village. So it's leftie of the manor, do as I say not as I do, Bragg. I'm sure he'd take in a few poor Maggie victims into one his 8 spare rooms. :greengrin

If Bragg lived in a hovel on housing benefit you'd accuse him of taking a good home away from the poor and being a scrounger. Us successful lefties cant win :boo hoo:

[hibs0666]

It's not a pleasant place but for once, I find myself agreeing with you.

She didn't give 2 hoots about the State and worked her hardest to abolish it in many ways and now it funds the funeral and grants expenses for attendance.

Utterly mind-boggling when you consider the ludicrousness of some of the austerity measures being implemented...

A free-market funeral would be 100% fitting. A main sponsor on the coffin would bring in a few quid. We could have an auction to select the hearse driver. Businsses should have been able to make bids to route the cavalcade. A fund-raising dinner with the coffin in attendance could also be a good revenue raiser.

I'm sure thatcher would have whole-heartedly approved.

[CropleyWasGod]

But the miner's strikes caused the cuts, no?

Sure.

Sorry, I think I have missed the point. I assumed you were saying that the power cuts were in the Callaghan days, and that the Thatcherite measures were a reaction to that.

[allmodcons]

Do you know what he does with his money? Do you know, for example, about the music projects he's involved in with local schoolkids?

And, does his relative wealth preclude him from having socialist principles?

It would appear to for some which, of course, is just pure nonsense.

Goods news for Falkirk Hibby is that Billy Braggs spare rooms are all occupied by migrants.

[CropleyWasGod]

It would appear to for some which, of course, is just pure nonsense.
Good news for Falkirk Hibby is that Billy Braggs spare rooms are all occupied by migrants.

Lesbian African sex-workers , one hopes.

[hibs0666]

Lesbian African sex-workers , one hopes.

Muslim ones apparently.

[CropleyWasGod]

Muslim ones apparently.

Result.

[clerriehibs]

So, now that you realise that I was talking about everything I have read/heard/watched, rather than admit you were wrong to say I had exaggerated, you discount a portion of what I have read/head/watched as invalid, then reclaim your point about it being as an exaggeration of the true number? Okay then :aok:

... and breathe

[Lucius Apuleius]

If Bragg lived in a hovel on housing benefit you'd accuse him of taking a good home away from the poor and being a scrounger. Us successful lefties cant win :boo hoo:


:greengrin Fully agree Comrade. Just because a man gets on in his job and earns a few extra pennies should not preclude him from enjoying the finer trappings in life.


Lesbian African sex-workers , one hopes.


Muslim ones apparently.

Could be all four :-). I've met some in my time:greengrin

[IndieHibby]

Sure.

Sorry, I think I have missed the point. I assumed you were saying that the power cuts were in the Callaghan days, and that the Thatcherite measures were a reaction to that. I was unaware that there were no cuts in the Thatcher days, so it was a helpful correction, thanks.

The point I was making was that the miner's strikes were,in effect, holding a democratically-elected government to ransom. Presumably, given the failure of negotiations, the only option was to break the strike by force. I can't see another way, but welcome suggestions!

As I wasn't alive at the time, I was using a more localised (i.e. if they had cut off my electricity, rubbish collections etc) example to make my point.

I really find it hard to see the miners point of view. Even after having had it explained to me so many times.

Redundancy sucks. Unemployement sucks. I know from personal experience. But is it not a necessary part of life?

[IndieHibby]

... and breathe

Honestly, I can hold my breath for quite a long time. :greengrin

[clerriehibs]

How is that an exaggeration? Were there not power cuts? Did rubbish not pile up in the street, uncollected?

Did any individual march up to someone's and carry out all those nasty tricks that, had it happened to you, you'd have resorted to violence? No. You exaggerated a point, badly.

Interesting to note that, if such an unlikely scenario did happen, violence is ok. Must be something to do with your rights? But for any working man, faced with unemployment and being unable to provide for his family because of political ideology and dogma, withdrawal of labour (a fundamental worker's right) is a BAD THING.

Brilliant.

Unions and the right to use withdrawal of labour as a tactic improved the lot of ALL workers over the past couple of centuries. Without that, we'd be pretty much stuck at where we're heading back to now; long hours, low pay, few rights for those lucky enough to be in work, free reign for the employers, and a huge financial gulf in between.

[hibsbollah]

Glenda Jackson is ignoring Ed Miliband's request and getting tore into Thatch in the commons just now, the first one so far.

[northseahibby]

She was hoping to be cremated.....but no coal could be found !!!!

[lyonhibs]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-watch-glenda-1822905

Say what you like, Glenda Jackson appears to have more stones than the entire Labour front bench.

[lapsedhibee]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-watch-glenda-1822905

Say what you like, Glenda Jackson appears to have more stones than the entire Labour front bench.

Ok, I thought her performance in The Music Lovers was overstated. I've been on loads of trains and never seen anything like that.

[IndieHibby]

Did any individual march up to someone's and carry out all those nasty tricks that, had it happened to you, you'd have resorted to violence? No. You exaggerated a point, badly.
I wasn't exaggeration, I was attempting to empathise with the person who had to make the decision (about what to do with strikers who won't/can't negotiate). The only way to do that is to consider how you would react if it you were placed in a similar scenario. I'm gutted you disapprove.


Interesting to note that, if such an unlikely scenario did happen, violence is ok.

Self defence is a principle enshrined in law, and before you say it, it does include property.


Must be something to do with your rights? But for any working man, faced with unemployment and being unable to provide for his family because of political ideology and dogma, withdrawal of labour (a fundamental worker's right) is a BAD THING

Whenever I have lost my job in the past, withdrawal of labour hasn't been an option and wouldn't have helped one little bit. If a business is failing, then you are going to lose your job one way or another. Refusing to work is just pointless.

To attempt to enforce a change in the working environment, however, is probably something that a strike could be justified as a last resort. But if your employer has decided that your job no longer exists (as painful as it is to accept) then you have no choice but to accept that change.


Unions and the right to use withdrawal of labour as a tactic improved the lot of ALL workers over the past couple of centuries. Without that, we'd be pretty much stuck at where we're heading back to now; long hours, low pay, few rights for those lucky enough to be in work, free reign for the employers, and a huge financial gulf in between.

And revolutions were fought to gain freedom from oppression. I don't see the need for a revolution today, I and don't see the relevance of striking now.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-watch-glenda-1822905

Say what you like, Glenda Jackson appears to have more stones than the entire Labour front bench.

Its a good speech without a doubt. The absence of the phrase 'we will consult and move forward in partnership with key stakeholders' was particularly welcome, but she'll need to start using it if she wants a political future.

[clerriehibs]

I wasn't exaggeration, I was attempting to empathise with the person who had to make the decision (about what to do with strikers who won't/can't negotiate). The only way to do that is to consider how you would react if it you were placed in a similar scenario. I'm gutted you disapprove.



Self defence is a principle enshrined in law, and before you say it, it does include property.



Whenever I have lost my job in the past, withdrawal of labour hasn't been an option and wouldn't have helped one little bit. If a business is failing, then you are going to lose your job one way or another. Refusing to work is just pointless.

To attempt to enforce a change in the working environment, however, is probably something that a strike could be justified as a last resort. But if your employer has decided that your job no longer exists (as painful as it is to accept) then you have no choice but to accept that change.



And revolutions were fought to gain freedom from oppression. I don't see the need for a revolution today, I and don't see the relevance of striking now.

An absolute exaggration, then. No individuals were marching up to anyone's doors carrying out all, or even one of, the acts as you described them, therefore no need for you to empathise about fantasy acts, and fantasise about how you would go about sticking the jack boot in.

I've absolutely no argument with self-defence. Please explain your reasoning for the need for self-defence in the examples you gave. The only need I can imagine there for self-defence would be on the part of whoever was the recipient of your "damn sight worse than a baton charge" when they didn't take your refuse away.

Why do you think it's only ever strikers that won't negotiate, you having read literally THOUSANDS of articles on this sort of subject. Why have ACAS if there's only one side that's ever in the wrong?

Why don't you try empathising with the communities who had the heart ripped out of them for the sake of political ideology? The families that were broken? Difficult I know, because;
1 - you weren't born
2 - deepest Essex wasn't really the target of her hate, was it?

The coal industry wasn't finished; it still supplies c. 44% of our power generation needs. It was and is cheaper to import it, from markets with no workers' rights. Cheaper BECAUSE there are no workers' rights, which suits far-right ideology to the top of its jack-boots.

If that kind of ideology is fine by you, then it's just indicative of the greedy and selfish society that the milk snatcher wanted.

I've no idea why you've intriduced talk of revolution.

Expect a warm summer; there'll be a lot of heat generated while she's burning in hell.

[RyeSloan]

You mean there is no workers rights in the USA or Australia? Wow.

[lord bunberry]

You mean there is no workers rights in the USA or Australia? Wow.

Is it true that most Americans only get 2 weeks holiday a year

[clerriehibs]

You mean there is no workers rights in the USA or Australia? Wow.

and the other, far more significant, importers on the list you looked up are ... ?

[Haymaker]

Is it true that most Americans only get 2 weeks holiday a year

11days from my company. My friend gets 0 until 1 years service. You can take time off it seems but you wont get paid. Most months give you a public holiday though.

[Bostonhibby]

Its a good speech without a doubt. The absence of the phrase 'we will consult and move forward in partnership with key stakeholders' was particularly welcome, but she'll need to start using it if she wants a political future.

Agree, but what about the inevitable "hard working families" ? every politician mentions them then seeks to ingratiate with them by doing it more than once. Makes us ordinary workers feel inadequate.

[RyeSloan]

and the other, far more significant, importers on the list you looked up are ... ?

You stated that workers in the countries quoted had no workers rights. I merely expressed surprise at that fact.

Unless of course your comment was an exaggeration?

[Phil D. Rolls]

You're still accepting that everything your read in Private Eye is gospel I see FR ? When are you and Ian Hislop planning on celebrating your Civil Partnership ? :hug:

When you finally set me free CH. :boo hoo::boo hoo:

[clerriehibs]

You stated that workers in the countries quoted had no workers rights. I merely expressed surprise at that fact.

Unless of course your comment was an exaggeration?

I didn't mention those countries.

[Scouse Hibee]

Ah well now she's gone I won't shed a tear of joy or of sorrow. I will remember some of her decisions that affected me greatly and some that didn't and move on.




But............... Thank **** she broke the trade union stranglehold of this country.

[allmodcons]

You mean there is no workers rights in the USA or Australia? Wow.


I didn't mention those countries.

In 2012 the vast majority of imported coal (67%) came from Russia and Colombia. On that basis, I think CH makes a fair point, not an exaggeration.

[RyeSloan]

I didn't mention those countries.

Implicitly you did:

"It was and is cheaper to import it, from markets with no workers' rights. Cheaper BECAUSE there are no workers' rights, which suits far-right ideology to the top of its jack-boots"

That satement is absolutely unambiguous..imported coal was and is cheaper because it come from countries that had and have no workers rights.

I suggested to you that the statement was either very suprising in that it covered countries that I was pretty sure did have workers rights and that the fact they didn't was news to me or is that it was an over exageration (not to mention gross over simplification)

[clerriehibs]

Implicit or absolutely unambigious; make up your mind.

I said markets; not ALL markets.

The USA and Australia make up less than a quarter of recent imports figures.

Lord Bunberry hs alteady hinted at the less than wonderful USA holiday entitlement, a fair reflection of the overall workers' rights in that country.

South Africa is another importer; they just shoot their miners.

And the Atgentina junta was another big importer back in the day of Thatcher; ironic, eh?


Implicitly you did:

"It was and is cheaper to import it, from markets with no workers' rights. Cheaper BECAUSE there are no workers' rights, which suits far-right ideology to the top of its jack-boots"

That satement is absolutely unambiguous..imported coal was and is cheaper because it come from countries that had and have no workers rights.

I suggested to you that the statement was either very suprising in that it covered countries that I was pretty sure did have workers rights and that the fact they didn't was news to me or is that it was an over exageration (not to mention gross over simplification)

[--------]

An absolute exaggeration, then. No individuals were marching up to anyone's doors carrying out all, or even one of, the acts as you described them, therefore no need for you to empathize about fantasy acts, and fantasise about how you would go about sticking the jack boot in.

I've absolutely no argument with self-defence. Please explain your reasoning for the need for self-defence in the examples you gave. The only need I can imagine there for self-defence would be on the part of whoever was the recipient of your "damn sight worse than a baton charge" when they didn't take your refuse away.

Why do you think it's only ever strikers that won't negotiate, you having read literally THOUSANDS of articles on this sort of subject. Why have ACAS if there's only one side that's ever in the wrong?

Why don't you try empathising with the communities who had the heart ripped out of them for the sake of political ideology? The families that were broken? Difficult I know, because;
1 - you weren't born
2 - deepest Essex wasn't really the target of her hate, was it?

The coal industry wasn't finished; it still supplies c. 44% of our power generation needs. It was and is cheaper to import it, from markets with no workers' rights. Cheaper BECAUSE there are no workers' rights, which suits far-right ideology to the top of its jack-boots.

If that kind of ideology is fine by you, then it's just indicative of the greedy and selfish society that the milk snatcher wanted.

I've no idea why you've introduced talk of revolution.

Expect a warm summer; there'll be a lot of heat generated while she's burning in hell.


:agree: Anyone who wants to see how a coal industry works in an unregulated economy should get a hold of the DVD of the documentary "Harlan County USA" made in the seventies as a record of a miners' strike in Kentucky. I know which side Thatcher would have been on there.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Harlan-County-USA-Barbara-Kopple/dp/B001TLWR6E/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1365682957&sr=1-1&keywords=harlan+county+usa

It's very easy to sound off about the wicked witch being dead. She isn't. Sher's alive and well in her disciples and imitators in the Conservative-Liberal-New-Labour political consensus we're living with today.

[hibsbollah]

Agree, but what about the inevitable "hard working families" ? every politician mentions them then seeks to ingratiate with them by doing it more than once. Makes us ordinary workers feel inadequate.

:hilarious One of my pet hates. What about feckless, workshy lazy ersed families who like nothing better than falling asleep in a big chair on a sunday afternoon? Don't they have rights? :grr:

...i've noticed Ed Balls has started using 'hard pressed working families' instead. Same theme but adds the subtext that theyre hard working AND skint.

[RyeSloan]

Implicit or absolutely unambigious; make up your mind.

I said markets; not ALL markets.

The USA and Australia make up less than a quarter of recent imports figures.

Lord Bunberry hs alteady hinted at the less than wonderful USA holiday entitlement, a fair reflection of the overall workers' rights in that country.

South Africa is another importer; they just shoot their miners.

And the Atgentina junta was another big importer back in the day of Thatcher; ironic, eh?

I think something can be clear without being expressly stated…like your assertion that imported coal was and is cheaper because it come from countries that had and have no workers rights. …ergo imported coal must come from countries that have no workers rights and no coal can be from countries that do otherwise it wouldn’t be cheaper or imported.

Still I see you have clarified that your comment was relating to some markets coal maybe imported from not all. Thanks for that. Even then I would suggest that a lot of markets where coal is imported have at least SOME workers rights.

As for your assertion that you correlate holiday entitlements to workers rights…not sure there is such a connection. Canada and USA have 10 + public holidays yet Argentina you can have up to 35!! Or why not try that bastion of workers rights Kazakhstan where you can get 24 days.

Still if we are talking holidays we should head off to France, they apparently get 7 weeks…least we can happily import items from there without it requiring our jackboots

[LeighLoyal]

:agree: Anyone who wants to see how a coal industry works in an unregulated economy should get a hold of the DVD of the documentary "Harlan County USA" made in the seventies as a record of a miners' strike in Kentucky. I know which side Thatcher would have been on there.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Harlan-County-USA-Barbara-Kopple/dp/B001TLWR6E/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1365682957&sr=1-1&keywords=harlan+county+usa

It's very easy to sound off about the wicked witch being dead. She isn't. Sher's alive and well in her disciples and imitators in the Conservative-Liberal-New-Labour political consensus we're living with today.


Looks a good watch. I had sympathy with the miners back in the day vs Thatch, even though I'm a UKIP tory b***d these days.

[pacorosssco]

Down down, you bring me down
I hear you knocking at my door and I can't sleep at night
Your face, it has no place
No room for you inside my house I need to be alone

Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you
I don't care where you've been or what you plan to do

Turn turn, I wish you'd learn
There's a time and place for everything I've got to get it through
Cut loose, you're no use
I couldn't stand another second in your company

Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you
I don't care where you've been or what you plan to do

Stone me, why can't you see
You're a no-one nowhere washed up baby who'd look better dead

Your tongue is far too long
I don't like the way it sucks and slurps upon my every word

Don't waste your words I don't need anything from you
I don't care where you've been or what you plan to do

[Bostonhibby]

:hilarious One of my pet hates. What about feckless, workshy lazy ersed families who like nothing better than falling asleep in a big chair on a sunday afternoon? Don't they have rights? :grr:

...i've noticed Ed Balls has started using 'hard pressed working families' instead. Same theme but adds the subtext that theyre hard working AND skint.

:greengrin but more to the point, have you ever seen Ed Balls blink?

I think he is so coached and focussed on the mantra / dogma that it never even crosses his mind - second only to Gideon Osbourne.

Until one of them blinks or betrays any other human characteristic I am going to keep voting for the Monster Raving Looneys, at least you know where you stand with them.

[Andy74]

Radio 1 will only play a few seconds of Ding Dong. Dangerous path to go down in making political judgements on what people are buying and why.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Radio 1 will only play a few seconds of Ding Dong. Dangerous path to go down in making political judgements on what people are buying and why.

Here's a list of songs they banned. Surprisingly few from Thatcher's time - given that she wouldn't let us hear Sinn Fein politicians speak on TV. Seems to be a large amount that banned during the Gulf War though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_banned_by_the_BBC

[Jonnyboy]

If I was abroad on holiday and my employer needed me to return at short notice I would be fully expecting them to cover the cost of that...why would or should MP's be any different?

Why recall them at all though?

I've read and in some cases skim read this thread and I have one point on which I invite comment

If Labour was in power, would we have had Parliament recalled and plans for a state funeral costing a reported £10m?

[lord bunberry]

Why recall them at all though?

I've read and in some cases skim read this thread and I have one point on which I invite comment

If Labour was in power, would we have had Parliament recalled and plans for a state funeral costing a reported £10m?

It was a ridiculous decision to recall them, they are back on monday anyway. Her funerals not till Wednesday so why couldn't they have had their love in on monday or Tuesday

[clerriehibs]

Why recall them at all though?

I've read and in some cases skim read this thread and I have one point on which I invite comment

If Labour was in power, would we have had Parliament recalled and plans for a state funeral costing a reported £10m?

It surprised Ken Clarke, respect, and John Bercow, not quite so much respect.

But to answer your question; proper Labour? No chamce. New Labour ... depends; Blair - god yes, Brown - doubtful, Miliband (who has dropped New) - doubtful.

[RyeSloan]

Why recall them at all though?

I've read and in some cases skim read this thread and I have one point on which I invite comment

If Labour was in power, would we have had Parliament recalled and plans for a state funeral costing a reported £10m?

Oh dinnae get me wrong it was daft to do so. Pointless in fact.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I wonder what Katherine Jenkins did to get an invite to the funeral?

[jodjam]

I wonder what Katherine Jenkins did to get an invite to the funeral?

To give men a reason to have the tissues handy on Wednesday

[RyeSloan]

To give men a reason to have the tissues handy on Wednesday

9593

I can see why.......

[clerriehibs]

I wonder what Katherine Jenkins did to get an invite to the funeral?

Hope her dad wasn't a Welsh miner

[pacorosssco]

Why recall them at all though?

I've read and in some cases skim read this thread and I have one point on which I invite comment

If Labour was in power, would we have had Parliament recalled and plans for a state funeral costing a reported £10m?


if craig bent ref tom something hadnt been appointed for scottish cup final 2012 and cl qf 2013 would hibs and malaga not have suffered from his incompetence?

agreed wouldn't have happened. another can off worms opened and dc just posturing to his divided party who hold the witch as the epitome? of all things Tory and really more about him gaining cheap points within his group who could turn on him at any moment than anything else.

precendent has been broke to ensure dc leads them into another election against a week and disjointed Labour who with a bit of brains could maybe turn this to their advantage. Sadly now it is obvious most positions care for themselves and not those they represent least those they have as constituents

its also a media war and i think mozza got it spot on.

[pacorosssco]

11days from my company. My friend gets 0 until 1 years service. You can take time off it seems but you wont get paid. Most months give you a public holiday though.

there are parts of america that are third world and cannot benefit from international aid .

[Haymaker]

there are parts of america that are third world and cannot benefit from international aid .

Sorry pal, not sure I follow?

[Sylar]

Sorry pal, not sure I follow?

He's not wrong! You ever been to Detroit? :greengrin

[Greentinted]

I've pretty much held my own counsel re the lady not returning, but I quite liked this:

9594

[yeezus.]

Here's a list of songs they banned. Surprisingly few from Thatcher's time - given that she wouldn't let us hear Sinn Fein politicians speak on TV. Seems to be a large amount that banned during the Gulf War though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_banned_by_the_BBC

The actors voice they used on Gerry Adams was bloody awful

[nonshinyfinish]

The actors voice they used on Gerry Adams was bloody awful


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4

[Haymaker]

He's not wrong! You ever been to Detroit? :greengrin

True, some dodgy parts of Connecticut too.

[Betty Boop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4

:greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

Just watched BBC News in which they reported (with some relish) that 'Ding Dong The Witch is Dead' failed to get to No1, only reaching No2. They also reported that the chart show only played 5 secs of the song, while the Notsensibles ditty 'I'm in love with Margaret Thatcher', which entered the charts at a lofty No 35, was played in full.

It's time the License Tax was abolished and the BBC was privatized. Thatcher would approve :wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Just watched BBC News in which they reported (with some relish) that 'Ding Dong The Witch is Dead' failed to get to No1, only reaching No2. They also reported that the chart show only played 5 secs of the song, while the Notsensibles ditty 'I'm in love with Margaret Thatcher', which entered the charts at a lofty No 35, was played in full.

It's time the License Tax was abolished and the BBC was privatized. Thatcher would approve :wink:

Funny that, God Save the Queen only made it to number 2 in 1977 - we all know the truth though. Ever felt like you've been cheated?

[Hibs Class]

Funny that, God Save the Queen only made it to number 2 in 1977 - we all know the truth though. Ever felt like you've been cheated?

What is the truth? Did Vienna really make t to number one after all, despite the Joe Dolce conspiracy?

[EuanH78]

What is the truth? Did Vienna really make t to number one after all, despite the Joe Dolce conspiracy?

This means nothing to me :confused:

[Bostonhibby]

This means nothing to me :confused:

Whatsa matter you? Gotta no respect?

[Hiber-nation]

Just watched BBC News in which they reported (with some relish) that 'Ding Dong The Witch is Dead' failed to get to No1, only reaching No2. They also reported that the chart show only played 5 secs of the song, while the Notsensibles ditty 'I'm in love with Margaret Thatcher', which entered the charts at a lofty No 35, was played in full.

It's time the License Tax was abolished and the BBC was privatized. Thatcher would approve :wink:

Possibly the worst song ever recorded in the history of the world.

[Jack Hackett]

Whatsa matter you? Gotta no respect?

Ah, shaddap-a you face!

[Jack Hackett]

Possibly the worst song ever recorded in the history of the world.


So a fitting tribute then :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

War criminals Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger to attend Maggie's funeral.

[clerriehibs]

War criminals Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger to attend Maggie's funeral.

and Bliar

[Hibs Class]

War criminals Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger to attend Maggie's funeral.


and Bliar

And Jeffrey Archer. Now there's a proper criminal!

[wpj]

Any more? We can expect Dog the Bounty Hunter at this rate

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Noticed Jeremy Clarkson was there, probably spent most of his time moaning that the hearses werenae going fast enough! :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Noticed Jeremy Clarkson was there, probably spent most of his time moaning that the hearses werenae going fast enough! :greengrin

Hers certainly didn't.

[Jonnyboy]

Clever trick by George Osborne peeling that onion to set off his tears

[Betty Boop]

Clever trick by George Osborne peeling that onion to set off his tears

He probably heard the latest unemployment figures.

[monktonharp]

tonight, and most of the day I might add, I attended a couple of functions both related to a subject quite close to my heart. the first, being a ceremony for remembrance of the men who have lost their lives during service at Monktonhall colliery, 4 off whom I happen to have known. there was no intention of somehow glorifying this event, as the passing of these men,along with the others that have tragicly died in that place of work is very sad. suffice to say, that it was recognised and acknowledged by the ex-mining employees of this area who represented their clubs and communities. there was also a function after this in the local miner's club in Danderhall, where lots of old workmates met and the theme from then on, became the total disrespect of Baroness Thtcher. to anyone on here, who thinks that our feelings on this is totally disrespectfull of a former Prime Minister..............I say, get it right f/kin up ye.

[Betty Boop]

tonight, and most of the day I might add, I attended a couple of functions both related to a subject quite close to my heart. the first, being a ceremony for remembrance of the men who have lost their lives during service at Monktonhall colliery, 4 off whom I happen to have known. there was no intention of somehow glorifying this event, as the passing of these men,along with the others that have tragicly died in that place of work is very sad. suffice to say, that it was recognised and acknowledged by the ex-mining employees of this area who represented their clubs and communities. there was also a function after this in the local miner's club in Danderhall, where lots of old workmates met and the theme from then on, became the total disrespect of Baroness Thtcher. to anyone on here, who thinks that our feelings on this is totally disrespectfull of a former Prime Minister..............I say, get it right f/kin up ye.


I heard a guy being interviewed on Five Live yesterday morning. Was that you ? Hope you had a good day ! :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

I thought the Queen had a wee twinkle in her eye when she walked in. I don't think there was any love lost there - after all Thatcher started using the royal we, and behaved more and more like she was the monarch.

Just an observation on the woman, and possible evidence that too much power drives people mad. Not that she had far to go in the first place.

[WindyMiller]

tonight, and most of the day I might add, I attended a couple of functions both related to a subject quite close to my heart. the first, being a ceremony for remembrance of the men who have lost their lives during service at Monktonhall colliery, 4 off whom I happen to have known. there was no intention of somehow glorifying this event, as the passing of these men,along with the others that have tragicly died in that place of work is very sad. suffice to say, that it was recognised and acknowledged by the ex-mining employees of this area who represented their clubs and communities. there was also a function after this in the local miner's club in Danderhall, where lots of old workmates met and the theme from then on, became the total disrespect of Baroness Thtcher. to anyone on here, who thinks that our feelings on this is totally disrespectfull of a former Prime Minister..............I say, get it right f/kin up ye.


The covered it on the BBC news.

Seemed a fine party.

[Killiehibbie]

The former miners of Monktonhall gathered on Wednesday in a local graveyard, popped corks, swigged whisky from silver hip flasks and, doused by rain, cracked morbid jokes. "Maggie's in hell and she's shut down three furnaces already," said one, with a sour laugh.
Paying tribute to several dead pitmen buried at Newton parish church, they remembered the miners' strike nearly 30 years ago that led to scores of local men being sacked. They gathered too to openly dishonour the woman they solely and wholly blamed, Margaret Thatcher (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/margaretthatcher).
They laid four wreaths at a memorial to the 10 local men killed underground at Monktonhall since the 1960s – some of the wreaths labelled National Union of Miners – and then held a "Thatcher's dead" party at the miners' club. There was no attempt at irony. They meant it. It was a late wake for their own past.
Jim Finlayson, 70, in flat cap and glasses, sat behind a Formica-covered table at the entrance to Danderhall miners' club with an open visitor's book, a pint of Heavy and an old whisky bottle case with the scribbled label: "Donations towards Thatcher's funeral party." He was one of more than 170 local miners sacked after being arrested on a picket line at Bilston Glen colliery, the other major pit in the area.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/4/17/1366216562094/Scottish-miners-celebrate-009.jpgThe party at Danderhall miners' club. Photograph: Tom Finnie"I feel, personally, she destroyed Scotland (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/scotland). You know, 250,000 workers were put out of work eventually and she got all the tax and revenue from the oil: she took that off us as well," he said.
Alex Bennett, now a local Labour councillor, who was chairman of the local National Union of Mineworkers branch in the strike, and the event's master of ceremonies, was equally unrepentant.
"Some people think it's disrespectful; as far as I'm concerned, I can't respect Margaret Thatcher. I don't think she respected any of us. I think it's bad taste she's having a state funeral," he said. Thatcher, he added, was no Diana, Princess of Wales.
There were a handful of other anti-Thatcher events elsewhere in Scotland. In George Square in central Glasgow, scene of the impromptu street party held on the day Lady Thatcher died (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-party-brixton-glasgow), a vigil was held to commemorate the thousands of people laid off in local shipyards, mines and at Ravenscraig steel mill.
Like other Scottish mining (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/mining) communities, dozens of local men around Danderhall, on the southern outskirts of Edinburgh, were sacked during the strike; at its peak one pitman, Abe Moffat, son of a famous miners' leader, Alex Moffat, nailed himself to his floorboards in nearby Dalkeith in protest. Another famous miners' leader, the communist Mick McGahey, was a regular at Danderhall in the 1970s.
Brendan Moohan, 48, regards himself as a lucky survivor. He was sacked for breach of the peace on the picket line only two years after starting aged 17 at Monktonhall. He eventually went to university, getting an A for his community education dissertation, a critique of Thatcherism.
"Let's not forget, she compared us to fascists in Argentina by calling us 'the enemy within'," Moohan said, clutching a plastic tumbler of cava in the cemetery. "I don't normally go around celebrating the deaths of people, you have to understand."
His friend Simon Tait, 56, recalled his father refusing to allow him to visit the coalface as a schoolboy. He believes his father did right: "I'm a poncey actor now," Tait said. Bill Tait, an electrician underground, died after surviving tuberculosis, four knee operations and quadruple heart bypass surgery.
"I wish he could have been here. I think it's wonderful, all these old miners popping bottles of champagne. That woman showed complete disrespect to an entire country: I don't even mean just Scotland – the whole of the UK," Tait said. "I think the strike was a sideshow: it was to do with the trade union movement. She wanted to break the trade unions – that's why she pushed on with the strike."
As a parting gesture at the churchyard, Helenor Forbes, a small brass miners' lamp brooch pinned to her lapel, wandered over to kiss her husband Freddie's gravestone. The wife, daughter and granddaughter of miners, Forbes believes the former prime minister in effect waged war on working-class Scotland, closing the pits, Ravenscraig steel mill and other key heavy industries.
"Today is a happy day for us," she said bluntly. "I can feel for her family, her personal son and daughter, but for Mrs Thatcher herself? I have no sadness at all."

[(((Fergus)))]

What's happened to all these industries that Thatcher waged war on? It's over 20 years now, have they recovered from her onslaught?

[Scouse Hibee]

The former miners of Monktonhall gathered on Wednesday in a local graveyard, popped corks, swigged whisky from silver hip flasks and, doused by rain, cracked morbid jokes. "Maggie's in hell and she's shut down three furnaces already," said one, with a sour laugh.
Paying tribute to several dead pitmen buried at Newton parish church, they remembered the miners' strike nearly 30 years ago that led to scores of local men being sacked. They gathered too to openly dishonour the woman they solely and wholly blamed, Margaret Thatcher (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/margaretthatcher).
They laid four wreaths at a memorial to the 10 local men killed underground at Monktonhall since the 1960s – some of the wreaths labelled National Union of Miners – and then held a "Thatcher's dead" party at the miners' club. There was no attempt at irony. They meant it. It was a late wake for their own past.
Jim Finlayson, 70, in flat cap and glasses, sat behind a Formica-covered table at the entrance to Danderhall miners' club with an open visitor's book, a pint of Heavy and an old whisky bottle case with the scribbled label: "Donations towards Thatcher's funeral party." He was one of more than 170 local miners sacked after being arrested on a picket line at Bilston Glen colliery, the other major pit in the area.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/4/17/1366216562094/Scottish-miners-celebrate-009.jpgThe party at Danderhall miners' club. Photograph: Tom Finnie"I feel, personally, she destroyed Scotland (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/scotland). You know, 250,000 workers were put out of work eventually and she got all the tax and revenue from the oil: she took that off us as well," he said.
Alex Bennett, now a local Labour councillor, who was chairman of the local National Union of Mineworkers branch in the strike, and the event's master of ceremonies, was equally unrepentant.
"Some people think it's disrespectful; as far as I'm concerned, I can't respect Margaret Thatcher. I don't think she respected any of us. I think it's bad taste she's having a state funeral," he said. Thatcher, he added, was no Diana, Princess of Wales.
There were a handful of other anti-Thatcher events elsewhere in Scotland. In George Square in central Glasgow, scene of the impromptu street party held on the day Lady Thatcher died (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-party-brixton-glasgow), a vigil was held to commemorate the thousands of people laid off in local shipyards, mines and at Ravenscraig steel mill.
Like other Scottish mining (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/mining) communities, dozens of local men around Danderhall, on the southern outskirts of Edinburgh, were sacked during the strike; at its peak one pitman, Abe Moffat, son of a famous miners' leader, Alex Moffat, nailed himself to his floorboards in nearby Dalkeith in protest. Another famous miners' leader, the communist Mick McGahey, was a regular at Danderhall in the 1970s.
Brendan Moohan, 48, regards himself as a lucky survivor. He was sacked for breach of the peace on the picket line only two years after starting aged 17 at Monktonhall. He eventually went to university, getting an A for his community education dissertation, a critique of Thatcherism.
"Let's not forget, she compared us to fascists in Argentina by calling us 'the enemy within'," Moohan said, clutching a plastic tumbler of cava in the cemetery. "I don't normally go around celebrating the deaths of people, you have to understand."
His friend Simon Tait, 56, recalled his father refusing to allow him to visit the coalface as a schoolboy. He believes his father did right: "I'm a poncey actor now," Tait said. Bill Tait, an electrician underground, died after surviving tuberculosis, four knee operations and quadruple heart bypass surgery.
"I wish he could have been here. I think it's wonderful, all these old miners popping bottles of champagne. That woman showed complete disrespect to an entire country: I don't even mean just Scotland – the whole of the UK," Tait said. "I think the strike was a sideshow: it was to do with the trade union movement. She wanted to break the trade unions – that's why she pushed on with the strike."
As a parting gesture at the churchyard, Helenor Forbes, a small brass miners' lamp brooch pinned to her lapel, wandered over to kiss her husband Freddie's gravestone. The wife, daughter and granddaughter of miners, Forbes believes the former prime minister in effect waged war on working-class Scotland, closing the pits, Ravenscraig steel mill and other key heavy industries.
"Today is a happy day for us," she said bluntly. "I can feel for her family, her personal son and daughter, but for Mrs Thatcher herself? I have no sadness at all."


What a bunch of ****** erseholes!!!!

[Corstorphine Hibby]

The former miners of Monktonhall gathered on Wednesday in a local graveyard, popped corks, swigged whisky from silver hip flasks and, doused by rain, cracked morbid jokes. "Maggie's in hell and she's shut down three furnaces already," said one, with a sour laugh.
Paying tribute to several dead pitmen buried at Newton parish church, they remembered the miners' strike nearly 30 years ago that led to scores of local men being sacked. They gathered too to openly dishonour the woman they solely and wholly blamed, Margaret Thatcher (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/margaretthatcher).
They laid four wreaths at a memorial to the 10 local men killed underground at Monktonhall since the 1960s – some of the wreaths labelled National Union of Miners – and then held a "Thatcher's dead" party at the miners' club. There was no attempt at irony. They meant it. It was a late wake for their own past.
Jim Finlayson, 70, in flat cap and glasses, sat behind a Formica-covered table at the entrance to Danderhall miners' club with an open visitor's book, a pint of Heavy and an old whisky bottle case with the scribbled label: "Donations towards Thatcher's funeral party." He was one of more than 170 local miners sacked after being arrested on a picket line at Bilston Glen colliery, the other major pit in the area.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/4/17/1366216562094/Scottish-miners-celebrate-009.jpgThe party at Danderhall miners' club. Photograph: Tom Finnie"I feel, personally, she destroyed Scotland (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/scotland). You know, 250,000 workers were put out of work eventually and she got all the tax and revenue from the oil: she took that off us as well," he said.
Alex Bennett, now a local Labour councillor, who was chairman of the local National Union of Mineworkers branch in the strike, and the event's master of ceremonies, was equally unrepentant.
"Some people think it's disrespectful; as far as I'm concerned, I can't respect Margaret Thatcher. I don't think she respected any of us. I think it's bad taste she's having a state funeral," he said. Thatcher, he added, was no Diana, Princess of Wales.
There were a handful of other anti-Thatcher events elsewhere in Scotland. In George Square in central Glasgow, scene of the impromptu street party held on the day Lady Thatcher died (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-party-brixton-glasgow), a vigil was held to commemorate the thousands of people laid off in local shipyards, mines and at Ravenscraig steel mill.
Like other Scottish mining (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/mining) communities, dozens of local men around Danderhall, on the southern outskirts of Edinburgh, were sacked during the strike; at its peak one pitman, Abe Moffat, son of a famous miners' leader, Alex Moffat, nailed himself to his floorboards in nearby Dalkeith in protest. Another famous miners' leader, the communist Mick McGahey, was a regular at Danderhall in the 1970s.
Brendan Moohan, 48, regards himself as a lucky survivor. He was sacked for breach of the peace on the picket line only two years after starting aged 17 at Monktonhall. He eventually went to university, getting an A for his community education dissertation, a critique of Thatcherism.
"Let's not forget, she compared us to fascists in Argentina by calling us 'the enemy within'," Moohan said, clutching a plastic tumbler of cava in the cemetery. "I don't normally go around celebrating the deaths of people, you have to understand."
His friend Simon Tait, 56, recalled his father refusing to allow him to visit the coalface as a schoolboy. He believes his father did right: "I'm a poncey actor now," Tait said. Bill Tait, an electrician underground, died after surviving tuberculosis, four knee operations and quadruple heart bypass surgery.
"I wish he could have been here. I think it's wonderful, all these old miners popping bottles of champagne. That woman showed complete disrespect to an entire country: I don't even mean just Scotland – the whole of the UK," Tait said. "I think the strike was a sideshow: it was to do with the trade union movement. She wanted to break the trade unions – that's why she pushed on with the strike."
As a parting gesture at the churchyard, Helenor Forbes, a small brass miners' lamp brooch pinned to her lapel, wandered over to kiss her husband Freddie's gravestone. The wife, daughter and granddaughter of miners, Forbes believes the former prime minister in effect waged war on working-class Scotland, closing the pits, Ravenscraig steel mill and other key heavy industries.
"Today is a happy day for us," she said bluntly. "I can feel for her family, her personal son and daughter, but for Mrs Thatcher herself? I have no sadness at all."


Full fat Irn Bru with a champagne chaser.

Classy.

[MSK]

What a bunch of ****** erseholes!!!!Bet ye wouldnt have said that to their faces ..easy behind a keyboard tho eh ?...:wink:

[Scouse Hibee]

Bet ye wouldnt have said that to their faces ..easy behind a keyboard tho eh ?...:wink:


If you want to get them altogether give me a shout and I'll tell them in person.

[MSK]

If you want to get them altogether give me a shout and I'll tell them in person.Pop down the Jewel or Danderhall Miners club & state yer case ..I wouldnt fancy your chances ..& thats just against the wummin ..:wink:

[Scouse Hibee]

Pop down the Jewel or Danderhall Miners club & state yer case ..I wouldnt fancy your chances ..& thats just against the wummin ..:wink:


Nae problem to me, give me couple of weeks to get my local blacksmith to construct my safety cage enclosed in bullet/fire proof material and I will happily be placed on the stage at their next function and tell them exactly what I think! :greengrin

[MSK]

Nae problem to me, give me couple of weeks to get my local blacksmith to construct my safety cage enclosed in bullet/fire proof material and I will happily be placed on the stage at their next function and tell them exactly what I think! :greengrinBlacksmith ..?...try NATO mate ...:greengrin

[Scouse Hibee]

Blacksmith ..?...try NATO mate ...:greengrin


Blacksmith just for the cage, I will commission the A Team to finish it off.

[Killiehibbie]

What a bunch of ****** erseholes!!!!You can change the miners for any workers that actually produced something.

[clerriehibs]

What a bunch of ****** erseholes!!!!

****; the one thing she didn't do when urged was to let liverpool rot. Another of her mistakes, it seems ...

Ding dong, the witch is still dead

[Hibrandenburg]

****; the one thing she didn't do when urged was to let liverpool rot. Another of her mistakes, it seems ...

Ding dong, the witch is still dead

Nah! She's alive and kicking in all mainstream parties.

[clerriehibs]

Nah! She's alive and kicking in all mainstream parties.

Aye ... 8-(

[Scouse Hibee]

****; the one thing she didn't do when urged was to let liverpool rot. Another of her mistakes, it seems ...

Ding dong, the witch is still dead

:faf:

[stoneyburn hibs]

****; the one thing she didn't do when urged was to let liverpool rot. Another of her mistakes, it seems ...

Ding dong, the witch is still dead

Don't feed the troll Clerrie

[Scouse Hibee]

don't feed the troll clerrie


:tee hee:

[clerriehibs]

Don't feed the troll Clerrie

Doh!!

[stoneyburn hibs]

Doh!!

Whoosh !

[steakbake]

There was a story somewhere of a guy who was celebrating Thatcher's demise with a drink for every year he'd been out of work since the factory he worked in closed when he was 28.

What on earth has he been up to all these years?

I am far from a Thatcher sympathiser but if someone knocks you down, that's on them - if you don't get up off the floor, that's on you.

As for the parties etc, I actually thought they were pretty undignified. As various commentators have said, if she were around to see them she'd have taken some pleasure from knowing the impact she had.

[lord bunberry]

There was a story somewhere of a guy who was celebrating Thatcher's demise with a drink for every year he'd been out of work since the factory he worked in closed when he was 28.

What on earth has he been up to all these years?

I am far from a Thatcher sympathiser but if someone knocks you down, that's on them - if you don't get up off the floor, that's on you.

As for the parties etc, I actually thought they were pretty undignified. As various commentators have said, if she were around to see them she'd have taken some pleasure from knowing the impact she had.

Well if she would have taken pleasure in the fact that she divided the country and caused such hatred that people celebrated her death then she failed miserably as prime minister

[MSK]

There was a story somewhere of a guy who was celebrating Thatcher's demise with a drink for every year he'd been out of work since the factory he worked in closed when he was 28.

What on earth has he been up to all these years?

I am far from a Thatcher sympathiser but if someone knocks you down, that's on them - if you don't get up off the floor, that's on you.

As for the parties etc, I actually thought they were pretty undignified. As various commentators have said, if she were around to see them she'd have taken some pleasure from knowing the impact she had.And that just sums the auld bitch up then eh ..?

[clerriehibs]

And that just sums the auld bitch up then eh ..?

Ding dong!