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View Full Version : The honeymoon period is over for Fenlon.



blackpoolhibs
30-03-2013, 09:36 PM
With more and more folk unhappy at his tactics/team selection/formation and results, the honeymoon period is over. We now have folk calling for him to be sacked, why?

ronaldo7
30-03-2013, 09:37 PM
It's the Hibs way.

SaulGoodman
30-03-2013, 09:38 PM
It's the Hibs way.

This.

Col_0762
30-03-2013, 09:40 PM
With more and more folk unhappy at his tactics/team selection/formation and results, the honeymoon period is over. We now have folk calling for him to be sacked, why?

Results

H18sry
30-03-2013, 09:41 PM
Are we really any better than last season?

darwenhibby
30-03-2013, 09:42 PM
Martin O'Neill is available !!

CallumLaidlaw
30-03-2013, 09:44 PM
Yep, lets get another manager in, and have another "transitional period". Pat is trying to change the teams attitude. Yes, sometimes he picks the wrong player or wrong formation, but that's why he's Hibs manager and not Man Utd.
I am still 100% behind him. The majority of his signings have been decent, and they all have the right attitude. We have Liam Craig coming in next year and another couple of quality additions ( a right winger and a striker) while keeping hold of Thomson or Claros, and Griffiths, and we'd improve again I feel.

Jonnyboy
30-03-2013, 09:44 PM
With more and more folk unhappy at his tactics/team selection/formation and results, the honeymoon period is over. We now have folk calling for him to be sacked, why?

Is this thread mark 2 G? :wink:

blackpoolhibs
30-03-2013, 09:49 PM
Is this thread mark 2 G? :wink:

I have no idea what you mean John? :wink: Getting back to the subject, we have hit a slump and we are poor yet one win against Falkirk and we have done better than last season whatever the result in the final.

Is it enough to give Pat more time, i think it is?

CallumLaidlaw
30-03-2013, 09:49 PM
I have no idea what you mean John? :wink: Getting back to the subject, we have hit a slump and we are poor yet one win against Falkirk and we have done better than last season whatever the result in the final.

Is it enough to give Pat more time, i think it is?

Absolutely.

jdships
30-03-2013, 09:51 PM
Martin O'Neill is available !!

So is Owen Coyle :greengrin

blackpoolhibs
30-03-2013, 09:56 PM
So is Owen Coyle :greengrin

I heard an interview with the centre half Chelsea bought from Bolton, his name escapes me at the moment. He said he had to get away from Bolton, as under Coyle, they had no real tactics, and did not work on any defensive routines. Hard to believe, but thats what he said.

Sudds_1
30-03-2013, 09:58 PM
I have no idea what you mean John? :wink: Getting back to the subject, we have hit a slump and we are poor yet one win against Falkirk and we have done better than last season whatever the result in the final.

Is it enough to give Pat more time, i think it is?



……of course it is.........we are progressing. Slowly. But we are progressing. The damage dome over the past few years will take more than a season to repair. Fenlon may be the right man in the long term. He may not be. Time will tell

But thus far he's shown he CAN make a difference. Which is more that can be said of his immediate predecessors.

DH1875
30-03-2013, 09:59 PM
I have no idea what you mean John? :wink: Getting back to the subject, we have hit a slump and we are poor yet one win against Falkirk and we have done better than last season whatever the result in the final.

Is it enough to give Pat more time, i think it is?


Erm....... Hate to point out the obvious but what if we lose to Falkirk?

blackpoolhibs
30-03-2013, 10:00 PM
Erm....... Hate to point out the obvious but what if we lose to Falkirk?

That does not bare thinking about, this place will melt.

Sir David Gray
30-03-2013, 10:01 PM
It would be madness to sack Fenlon at the moment.

He needs to be given until the end of 2013, at the very least.

Yes the last few months have been really disappointing but we can't keep changing managers every 15-18 months. It's not doing the club any good and we keep going through transition periods where we're looking to rebuild under a new manager.

If we're sitting near the bottom of the league by the time we get to November or December then we may need to revisit things then but as far as things stand at the moment, we need to stand by him and give him our support over the summer in what will be a really important transfer window for the club.

Scouse Hibee
30-03-2013, 10:02 PM
I heard an interview with the centre half Chelsea bought from Bolton, his name escapes me at the moment. He said he had to get away from Bolton, as under Coyle, they had no real tactics, and did not work on any defensive routines. Hard to believe, but thats what he said.


Gary Cahill?

Col_0762
30-03-2013, 10:04 PM
Erm....... Hate to point out the obvious but what if we lose to Falkirk?

.....And finish 11. Which is isn't impossible as barring the ****, the rest have games in hand, St Mirren 2 and United 1.

GreenPJ
30-03-2013, 10:06 PM
Its not entertaining and its not getting results.

The signings some OK, some still jury's out, some not very good so still to be proven in the transfer market.

The negativity at home and even when we get back in the game there is no real change in tactic or formation.

I struggle to see why no striker was signed in Aug or Jan (Kuqi does not count). We had 9 midfielders (if you count Handling as a wide left mid/winger) in the team or on the bench today and whilst I rate some of them the only one who is currently showing any attacking ability is young Harris. And to be fair to Harris he is not a playmaker.

When Thomson is having to tell your manager that he needs to sub Deegan or he is getting sent off then there has to be question marks.

Scottie
30-03-2013, 10:08 PM
……of course it is.........we are progressing. Slowly. But we are progressing. The damage dome over the past few years will take more than a season to repair. Fenlon may be the right man in the long term. He may not be. Time will tell

But thus far he's shown he CAN make a difference. Which is more that can be said of his immediate predecessors.

What exact difference has he made ?

We are the same very poor team that we were last season but with more of PF own players

Why is he getting such an easy ride of some people. Unbelievable :confused:

LancashireHibby
30-03-2013, 10:12 PM
I heard an interview with the centre half Chelsea bought from Bolton, his name escapes me at the moment. He said he had to get away from Bolton, as under Coyle, they had no real tactics, and did not work on any defensive routines. Hard to believe, but thats what he said.
Entirely believable for those of us who had to watch it!

Up The Bracket
30-03-2013, 10:14 PM
Anyone who wants him sacked doesn't have a clue. There's no point in even wasting your breath explaining to them because their mental capacity is too low to understand.

Here is our line up in his first game:

Stack

Hart
O'Hanlon
Stephens
Hanlon

Wotherspoon
Stevenson
Osbourne
Sproule

Griffiths
O'Connor

Compared with our best line up now:

Williams

Clancy
McPake
Hanlon
McGivern

Thomson
Robertson
Claros

Harris
Cairney

Griffiths

Anyone that can't see the improvement needs to have a re-think.

Andy74
30-03-2013, 10:17 PM
What exact difference has he made ?

We are the same very poor team that we were last season but with more of PF own players

Why is he getting such an easy ride of some people. Unbelievable :confused:

Perhaps due to most of the season having been spent in the top half of the league. We haven't lost to Hearts or Celtic yet.

That's very different from being in a genuine relegation battle all season.

Scouse Hibee
30-03-2013, 10:17 PM
Anyone who wants him sacked doesn't have a clue. There's no point in even wasting your breath explaining to them because their mental capacity is too low to understand.

Here is our line up in his first game:

Stack

Hart
O'Hanlon
Stephens
Hanlon

Wotherspoon
Stevenson
Osbourne
Sproule

Griffiths
O'Connor

Compared with our best line up now:

Williams

Clancy
McPake
Hanlon
McGivern

Thomson
Robertson
Claros

Harris
Cairney

Griffiths

Anyone that can't see the improvement isn't worthy of oxygen.

Aren't you the righteous one!

Jonnyboy
30-03-2013, 10:18 PM
Aren't you the righteous one!

16 years old and knows it all :agree:

hibsbollah
30-03-2013, 10:19 PM
With more and more folk unhappy at his tactics/team selection/formation and results, the honeymoon period is over. We now have folk calling for him to be sacked, why?

I wouldnt say it was the honeymoon period. Its more the five years down the line, not getting your hole as much or as skilfully as you did in the early days and her habits are starting to annoy you a bit, but she's still an upgrade on the munters you were running around with since your true love Antonia Mowbray left you.

That metaphor needs some work :greengrin

Vault Boy
30-03-2013, 10:19 PM
Are we really any better than last season?

Much.

cabbageandribs1875
30-03-2013, 10:19 PM
Anyone who wants him sacked doesn't have a clue. There's no point in even wasting your breath explaining to them because their mental capacity is too low to understand.



Anyone that can't see the improvement isn't worthy of oxygen.


pffftt, as michael jackson once sang, beat it...just BEAT IT

RyeSloan
30-03-2013, 10:22 PM
I wouldnt say it was the honeymoon period. Its more the five years down the line, not getting your hole as much or as skilfully as you did in the early days and her habits are starting to annoy you a bit, but she's still an upgrade on the munters you were running around with since your true love Antonia Mowbray left you.

That metaphor needs some work :greengrin

:greengrin it might need some work but it made me laugh. :thumbsup:

Scouse Hibee
30-03-2013, 10:23 PM
16 years old and knows it all :agree:

Maybe hasn't developed the mental capacity yet to realise he doesn't. :wink:

Jonnyboy
30-03-2013, 10:23 PM
Maybe hasn't developed the mental capacity yet to realise he doesn't. :wink:

:greengrin

Vault Boy
30-03-2013, 10:24 PM
Anyone that can't see the improvement isn't worthy of oxygen.

Whilst I agree with the comparison, that is needless.

marinello59
30-03-2013, 10:24 PM
Much.

Not much

Vault Boy
30-03-2013, 10:28 PM
Not much

Not in the football being played at the minute, but in terms of points and players we are in my opinion, much better. Especially as it's one seasons work. Player for player, I'd say we are much better, but we aren't in the way we are playing right now. The running of the club and the general attitude also seems to be much improved.

Heedersnvolleys
30-03-2013, 10:30 PM
:greengrin it might need some work but it made me laugh. :thumbsup:
Me too:not worth

Scottie
30-03-2013, 10:31 PM
Perhaps due to most of the season having been spent in the top half of the league. We haven't lost to Hearts or Celtic yet.

That's very different from being in a genuine relegation battle all season.

Thank god the huns went to the wall last year as we'd only be 6 points from bottom now.Thank god Dundee are so much worse than the rest.

But hey your hands must be hell o a sore wi all the happy clapping your doing. :applause: Progress ?????????????

Up The Bracket
30-03-2013, 10:32 PM
Whilst I agree with the comparison, that is needless.

You're probably right tbh, but fans who don't see the improvement frustrate me, if you told me we'd challenge for the top 6 and reach the Scottish Cup Semi Final (and hopefully final), this season on the 20th of May last year then I'd be happy.

I'll edit it out, shouldn't have said it.

sesoim
30-03-2013, 10:33 PM
Yep, lets get another manager in, and have another "transitional period". Pat is trying to change the teams attitude. Yes, sometimes he picks the wrong player or wrong formation, but that's why he's Hibs manager and not Man Utd.
I am still 100% behind him. The majority of his signings have been decent, and they all have the right attitude. We have Liam Craig coming in next year and another couple of quality additions ( a right winger and a striker) while keeping hold of Thomson or Claros, and Griffiths, and we'd improve again I feel.


He's signed 15 or so players. Surely he shouldn't need to change the team's attitude if he is signing the right players. As it happens I think he HAS signed a handful of decent players, but then so have most of the other SPL teams, and with a smaller budget than Fenlon. My biggest concern with Fenlon is that he doesn't seem to be getting very much out of the players.

blackpoolhibs
30-03-2013, 10:35 PM
I wouldnt say it was the honeymoon period. Its more the five years down the line, not getting your hole as much or as skilfully as you did in the early days and her habits are starting to annoy you a bit, but she's still an upgrade on the munters you were running around with since your true love Antonia Mowbray left you.

That metaphor needs some work :greengrin

:greengrin :top marks

trev the hat
30-03-2013, 10:35 PM
Far too early for sacking talk, albeit he is quickly finding his level , a manager permanantly based in the capital would be a step forward IMO

Vault Boy
30-03-2013, 10:36 PM
You're probably right tbh, but fans who don't see the improvement frustrate me, if you told me we'd challenge for the top 6 and reach the Scottish Cup Semi Final (and hopefully final), this season on the 20th of May last year then I'd be happy.

I'll edit it out, shouldn't have said it.

Fair play, I'm also a fan of Fenlon and I know it can be frustrating when others see it differently, just need to keep an open mind. :aok:

sesoim
30-03-2013, 10:37 PM
I have no idea what you mean John? :wink: Getting back to the subject, we have hit a slump and we are poor yet one win against Falkirk and we have done better than last season whatever the result in the final.

Is it enough to give Pat more time, i think it is?



A slight improvement in the League doesn't mean all that much when Rangers aren't in the league, Hearts have lost most of their team, and most other teams have cut back. Fenlon has been allowed to sign a lot of players who clearly would cost more in wages than the players most of the teams above us have signed, so I don't think a slight improvement is enough. He will obviously keep his job as long as we are in the Cup, but if Falkirk put us out I think he will go, as frankly there are plenty of other managers who could do a lot better.

marinello59
30-03-2013, 10:39 PM
He's signed 15 or so players. Surely he shouldn't need to change the team's attitude if he is signing the right players. As it happens I think he HAS signed a handful of decent players, but then so have most of the other SPL teams, and with a smaller budget than Fenlon. My biggest concern with Fenlon is that he doesn't seem to be getting very much out of the players.

:agree:
It's not as if we are playing in the toughest league in the world. An already poor SPL is even weaker this season due to the absence of Sevco and the addition of a Dundee team that had prepared for a season in the First Division. We lack basic organisation and we are still seeing a lack of movement and sense of urgency week after week. That's the managers fault.

Archie70
30-03-2013, 10:40 PM
Anyone who wants him sacked doesn't have a clue. There's no point in even wasting your breath explaining to them because their mental capacity is too low to understand.

Here is our line up in his first game:

Stack

Hart
O'Hanlon
Stephens
Hanlon

Wotherspoon
Stevenson
Osbourne
Sproule

Griffiths
O'Connor

Compared with our best line up now:

Williams

Clancy
McPake
Hanlon
McGivern

Thomson
Robertson
Claros

Harris
Cairney

Griffiths

Anyone that can't see the improvement isn't worthy of oxygen.

I can see it, but I can also see with a far better squad we're still only 8th in the league, 1 home win in the last nine league and only 1 league win this year. I can also, at times, see the football is dire to watch, the tactics are negative and we play 1 up front at home. I can also see that if it wasn't for one mans goals we'd be in a far worse position than we are.

The cup has kept our season alive and, if we make it, a final and place in Europe would be seen as success but for me the jury is still well and truly out with Fenlon. He's had a fair bit of time now yet home defeats which should be classed as shocks are now classed, and accepted, as routine. We've miles to go to be seen as a good, solid side and I'm not sure he can take us there. However, he deserves time and I'll back.

One thing I will say for his side is that at times they do seem capable of raising their game so maybe, just maybe, we're only two games away from him going down as our greatest manager ever!

davhibby
30-03-2013, 10:44 PM
We need to at least give him until midway through next season, we can't keep sacking managers for the sake of it

sesoim
30-03-2013, 10:45 PM
It would be madness to sack Fenlon at the moment.

He needs to be given until the end of 2013, at the very least.

Yes the last few months have been really disappointing but we can't keep changing managers every 15-18 months. It's not doing the club any good and we keep going through transition periods where we're looking to rebuild under a new manager.

If we're sitting near the bottom of the league by the time we get to November or December then we may need to revisit things then but as far as things stand at the moment, we need to stand by him and give him our support over the summer in what will be a really important transfer window for the club.


Usually I agree with you, but if we lose to Falkirk and finish well down the League, then really he has failed. And frankly, if the club keeps on appointing the wrong managers, then they will continually have to sack them. There were plenty of guys available when we appointed Fenlon, and I still don't have a clue why we appointed him (although I can guess), but why take the risk on a guy who comes from a league that, as far as I know, hasn't produced any successful managerial exports?

Eyrie
30-03-2013, 10:52 PM
The target for this season had to be a top six place, so it's fair to say that the honeymoon period is over because we've failed to do that under Fenlon's management and with his players. The reason for that isn't the non-penalty at Tannadice or the blind linesman in the derby, it's too many poor performances. We've lost three times to Ross County, shared the points with a Dundee team adrift at the foot of the table and taken one point from Inverness. Those are games which we should be getting more from if we are a genuine top six team, and on the results this season we are not. I'm still backing Fenlon, but he needs to improve the squad in the summer and get better performances next season or we'll be looking for yet another new manager before Christmas.

darwenhibby
30-03-2013, 10:52 PM
Entirely believable for those of us who had to watch it!

So ur really a Bolton fan then?

trev the hat
30-03-2013, 10:55 PM
Usually I agree with you, but if we lose to Falkirk and finish well down the League, then really he has failed. And frankly, if the club keeps on appointing the wrong managers, then they will continually have to sack them. There were plenty of guys available when we appointed Fenlon, and I still don't have a clue why we appointed him (although I can guess), but why take the risk on a guy who comes from a league that, as far as I know, hasn't produced any successful managerial exports?

Lets not get confused here, I may be wrong but no top 6 is FAILURE regardless who's in charge, shine any cup run u want but if we are winning 2 out of 15 league games THAT puts me off buying a season book.
Whilst Id be pullin ma plums oot at a SC win that alone won't have me queuing up for a season book.neither would a back door Europe spot.
Home league form is where it's at & preferably Sat 3 bells please.

sesoim
30-03-2013, 10:57 PM
Anyone who wants him sacked doesn't have a clue. There's no point in even wasting your breath explaining to them because their mental capacity is too low to understand.

Here is our line up in his first game:

Stack

Hart
O'Hanlon
Stephens
Hanlon

Wotherspoon
Stevenson
Osbourne
Sproule

Griffiths
O'Connor

Compared with our best line up now:

Williams

Clancy
McPake
Hanlon
McGivern

Thomson
Robertson
Claros

Harris
Cairney

Griffiths

Anyone that can't see the improvement needs to have a re-think.


I'll let you off a bit with some of the remarks because of your age. But if he has "improved" the team so much, why are we barely winning any games?

Baldy Foghorn
30-03-2013, 10:59 PM
I'm starting to have reservations.......

PF does not seem to have a plan B, can't make changes that see us turn defeat into a win.....Other Managers seem to get much more out of their players than PF does.....(Butcher, Adams, McCall).....

Getting really fed up watching the team under perform......

sesoim
30-03-2013, 11:01 PM
What exact difference has he made ?

We are the same very poor team that we were last season but with more of PF own players

Why is he getting such an easy ride of some people. Unbelievable :confused:



Totally agree. As I stated elsewhere, Williamson got a much harder ride than Fenlon when, if anything, he did a better job (we were lower down the table when he took over, the SPL was stronger at the time and we were losing a lot more players than we were signing).

That's 3 wins in 19 league games now. I wonder what it will take to wake the Fenlon supporters up? A Cup exit against Falkirk? Sinking to 11th by the end of the season? Getting relegated next year? I doubt we will get that bad because Fenlon will still get a decent budget next year compared to almost everyone else. But Petrie will start to get a bit miffed if he thinks Fenlon isn't doing as well as he should be.

pacorosssco
30-03-2013, 11:05 PM
as i end a 2 day bender and prepare for a third fenlon has been saved by the dross that came before. mixu went for less.i agree choping and changing hasnt helped and people arent wrong to back the manager but its a result business. to much changing of team week to week and cup games where we have rode our luck and goals of lg we have made no progress. sorry i dont see it in fenlon and he is just papering over the cracks.good luck to him with rest of season but can you compare him to other young managers in league.i dont think you can.im heading toor b it noo

sesoim
30-03-2013, 11:09 PM
What exact difference has he made ?

We are the same very poor team that we were last season but with more of PF own players

Why is he getting such an easy ride of some people. Unbelievable :confused:



Totally agree. As I stated elsewhere, Williamson got a much harder ride than Fenlon when, if anything, he did a better job (we were lower down the table when he took over, the SPL was stronger at the time and we were losing a lot more players than we were signing).

That's 3 wins in 19 league games now. I wonder what it will take to wake the Fenlon supporters up? A Cup exit against Falkirk? Sinking to 11th by the end of the season? Getting relegated next year? I doubt we will get that bad because Fenlon will still get a decent budget next year compared to almost everyone else. But Petrie will start to get a bit miffed if he thinks Fenlon isn't doing as well as he should be.

blackpoolhibs
30-03-2013, 11:34 PM
In my opinion the top 6 is goosed, and next weeks game is a game we can afford to rest a few of what Fenlon thinks is his team for the semi. I'd rest Griffiths McGivern Claros and Williams at least. We need these players fit for the week after.

Theres a couple who need to play like Hanlon and Clancy, but next week while important to the fans, is nowhere near as important for the club as the semi.

That game could be a huge earner should we get through, and could make a huge difference in type of player we can go after next season?

Sir David Gray
30-03-2013, 11:41 PM
Usually I agree with you, but if we lose to Falkirk and finish well down the League, then really he has failed. And frankly, if the club keeps on appointing the wrong managers, then they will continually have to sack them. There were plenty of guys available when we appointed Fenlon, and I still don't have a clue why we appointed him (although I can guess), but why take the risk on a guy who comes from a league that, as far as I know, hasn't produced any successful managerial exports?

I said this after Calderwood left and it didn't happen but I'm very serious about this.

If we do end up doing poorly in the first few months of next season and Fenlon ends up getting sacked, after less than 2 years in charge, then we need a change at boardroom level as well.

If we're looking for a new manager before the end of the year then that new guy will be our sixth manager in seven years. That's just ridiculous and the people at the top of the club would need to consider their positions.

I still believe in Pat Fenlon, but I'm not blind to our deficiencies either and clearly if we end up in 11th place this season and lose in the semi final to Falkirk (both of which are completely possible) then there will be a very depressing feeling about the club again this summer.

But I think we need to hang in there at the moment and see what kind of squad Fenlon is able to assemble over the summer.

trev the hat
30-03-2013, 11:48 PM
In my opinion the top 6 is goosed, and next weeks game is a game we can afford to rest a few of what Fenlon thinks is his team for the semi. I'd rest Griffiths McGivern Claros and Williams at least. We need these players fit for the week after.

Theres a couple who need to play like Hanlon and Clancy, but next week while important to the fans, is nowhere near as important for the club as the semi.

That game could be a huge earner should we get through, and could make a huge difference in type of player we can go after next season?

Not for me, no player should be rested, strongest available squad, surprised u suggest otherwise.
The huge earner should have been today, massive missed opportunity which will undoubtedly affect season sales not counting attendances til May. Unless there's a 3pm sat post split home game it's nxt season for me, I'm sure a lot in same boat.

blackpoolhibs
30-03-2013, 11:53 PM
Not for me, no player should be rested, strongest available squad, surprised u suggest otherwise.
The huge earner should have been today, massive missed opportunity which will undoubtedly affect season sales not counting attendances til May. Unless there's a 3pm sat post split home game it's nxt season for me, I'm sure a lot in same boat.

And thats the reason i said it, reaching the final will rescue our season financially. We are in the bottom 6, and wont reach the top 6. Crowds will fall, but a cup final appearance will halt the amount of money we would lose. Its the most important game of the season, and i'd like our better players fit for it.

Heisenberg
30-03-2013, 11:57 PM
We aren't a good team, Fenlon has turned us from utterly woeful to distinctly average. He'll get my support for the rest of the season and into the start of the 2013/14 league campaign. If we're still not playing well then aye his time could be up, getting rid now will only lead to yet another transitional season. Of course I am, like many others, having reservations over some aspects of his management but am willing to stick with it for the time being.

Figuring out how to change the style of play and team set up after the first round of games has been a massive struggle for Fenlon and is something I've thought about and become more worried about. When teams realised how to play us we've really not done well. I also feel he's not spent what budget he had to its fullest potential. Signing Robertson was a massive waste when we needed another striker in the door.

Craig_in_Prague
31-03-2013, 12:00 AM
another pish manager of our club.

honking since November.

crap football the whole time.

nearly got us relegated despite taking over less than half way through that season and had our worse result in our history.

trev the hat
31-03-2013, 12:01 AM
And thats the reason i said it, reaching the final will rescue our season financially. We are in the bottom 6, and wont reach the top 6. Crowds will fall, but a cup final appearance will halt the amount of money we would lose. Its the most important game of the season, and i'd like our better players fit for it.

Fair enough, respect your reasons, but nowhere near enough effort today to suggest any player needs resting.
On your same point, it shows how much we could have had with top6 & possible SCF. Possibly enough to keep our no.9 that's what hits home to me.
Anyway glory glory.

Emerald
31-03-2013, 12:01 AM
:top marks:top marks:top marks:top marks
another pish manager of our club.

honking since November.

crap football the whole time.

nearly got us relegated despite taking over less than half way through that season and had our worse result in our history.

Beefster
31-03-2013, 12:03 AM
anothet pish manager of our club.

honking since November.

nearly got us relegated despite taking over less than half way through that season and had our worse result in our history.

Don't exaggerate. Getting pumped by Dundee wasn't that bad.

pacorosssco
31-03-2013, 12:08 AM
another pish manager of our club.

honking since November.

crap football the whole time.

nearly got us relegated despite taking over less than half way through that season and had our worse result in our history.

refreshing honestly and the brutal truth

hibee19
31-03-2013, 12:22 AM
Not for me, no player should be rested, strongest available squad, surprised u suggest otherwise.
The huge earner should have been today, massive missed opportunity which will undoubtedly affect season sales not counting attendances til May. Unless there's a 3pm sat post split home game it's nxt season for me, I'm sure a lot in same boat.

If killie win in midweek I think we're officially buggured for top 6. Next week is a chance maybe for hanlon to get game time, perhaps a young defender as mcpake and Stevenson don't deserve to start the semi IMO. Perhaps give cairney a chance and experiment on the right (handling?).

We need to use this game as the cup is now our entire season and let's not pretend otherwise.

As far as Fenlon goes he needs next season to be judged one way or another but I struggle to see him becoming a success. The poisonous culture at hibs begins with fans accepting failure. If Fenlon goes then heads must roll further up also.

Captain Trips
31-03-2013, 12:42 AM
For the last 3,4,5 seasons I hear excuses for failure, I am seeing them again. Long overdue time for soloutions and I see very little if any of them.

hibs4thecup1988
31-03-2013, 01:14 AM
This is absolutely pants.

We need to stabilize the club. Fenlon has come in, got rid of what was more than a team last summer and is re shaping it. People saying that it was HIM that just avoided relegation pardon my french but don't talk s**t. He inherited an absolute stinker of a squad. Those two starting 11's confirms it for me. IF it wasn't for 2 absolute honking assistant refereeing decisions this thread wouldn't be here.

IMHO bottom 6 could work out for us. Let's be honest what would we get top 6? A game against Celtic at Easter Road? Europe? We were never getting 3rd or 4th anyways, and potentially could have lost all 5 games. Bottom 6... We get a chance to play some youngsters, rest a few guys, and who knows maybe get a morale boosting derby victory the week before the final.

As for sacking Fenlon...I don't think that is the answer. He needs another full season for me. This season was transitional, not just from CC but from previous managers too. Let's maybe judge him come January, but as I say end of next season for me.

Emerald
31-03-2013, 01:18 AM
This is absolutely pants.

We need to stabilize the club. Fenlon has come in, got rid of what was more than a team last summer and is re shaping it. People saying that it was HIM that just avoided relegation pardon my french but don't talk s**t. He inherited an absolute stinker of a squad. Those two starting 11's confirms it for me. IF it wasn't for 2 absolute honking assistant refereeing decisions this thread wouldn't be here.

IMHO bottom 6 could work out for us. Let's be honest what would we get top 6? A game against Celtic at Easter Road? Europe? We were never getting 3rd or 4th anyways, and potentially could have lost all 5 games. Bottom 6... We get a chance to play some youngsters, rest a few guys, and who knows maybe get a morale boosting derby victory the week before the final.

As for sacking Fenlon...I don't think that is the answer. He needs another full season for me. This season was transitional, not just from CC but from previous managers too. Let's maybe judge him come January, but as I say end of next season for me.

He's not a good manager though is he? Up with the worst in Hibs history, no???

Captain Trips
31-03-2013, 01:23 AM
This is absolutely pants.

We need to stabilize the club. Fenlon has come in, got rid of what was more than a team last summer and is re shaping it. People saying that it was HIM that just avoided relegation pardon my french but don't talk s**t. He inherited an absolute stinker of a squad. Those two starting 11's confirms it for me. IF it wasn't for 2 absolute honking assistant refereeing decisions this thread wouldn't be here.

IMHO bottom 6 could work out for us. Let's be honest what would we get top 6? A game against Celtic at Easter Road? Europe? We were never getting 3rd or 4th anyways, and potentially could have lost all 5 games. Bottom 6... We get a chance to play some youngsters, rest a few guys, and who knows maybe get a morale boosting derby victory the week before the final.

As for sacking Fenlon...I don't think that is the answer. He needs another full season for me. This season was transitional, not just from CC but from previous managers too. Let's maybe judge him come January, but as I say end of next season for me.

After what 16 months in charge that is how far we have managed to come for you bottom 6 working out for us? I quite fancy top 4 sometime within next 10yrs if thats ok. IMO we should be well past this if the manager is right man by this point.

pacorosssco
31-03-2013, 01:24 AM
He's not a good manager though is he? Up with the worst in Hibs history, no???

its like saying hell win eventually. keep betting red or black and house wins


time to think seriously of calling it a day

hibs4thecup1988
31-03-2013, 01:39 AM
After what 16 months in charge that is how far we have managed to come for you bottom 6 working out for us? I quite fancy top 4 sometime within next 10yrs if thats ok. IMO we should be well past this if the manager is right man by this point.

Obviously bottom 6 is not what we would have been looking for at the start of the season, but right at this moment in time, massive semi final coming up...who knows what come May...right now I'd take the opportunity to rest guys.

Top 3 should be a club of our statures target anyways

hibs4thecup1988
31-03-2013, 01:40 AM
its like saying hell win eventually. keep betting red or black and house wins


time to think seriously of calling it a day

Who? You or Fenlon? :confused:

Diclonius
31-03-2013, 01:49 AM
Next manager GTF. And the next one. And the next one. And the next one.

I am sick of us constantly changing managers. We haven't had consistent results since Mowbray (and no, 20 games under Hughes don't count). Fenlon might not be Jesus incarnate but he is not the major problem here, a lack of concistency and the work ethic we have as a club - that seems to have hung around for a good few years now, whatever the manager - is to blame.

Why don't we actually back the bloody manager for once instead of demanding CHANGE, RIGHT NOW every time something goes wrong. Another manager will put us back to square one and you can bet your bloody house that within a few months of their appointment he'll be "not good enough" or "****in' *****" or "a shambles" or whatever the buzz word is for "get rid of the manager".

If we're still mediocre at the end of the 2013-14 season and Fenlon's still in charge - fair enough. Then we'll talk. But in my eyes the number one reason why we are failing as a club is this one little statistic: five managers in six years. And some people actually want to make it six. :rolleyes:

HKhibby
31-03-2013, 03:21 AM
So is Owen Coyle :greengrin

Yes and i would go for Owen Coyle rather than Martin ONeil!

Borderhibbie76
31-03-2013, 06:22 AM
Personally I agree we cannae keep sacking managers however fenlon worries me, no plan b whatsoever (if there is even a plan a??). He needs to be given another year but if the unthinkable happens at hampden in 2 weeks time I fear he may be a goner!! Bottom 6 is a failure for a club of our size and resources and should never be viewed as anything different, and I dont care how bad we were last year!! Fenlon blew it, we have been top 6 all season till now!!!

hibee19
31-03-2013, 06:38 AM
Next manager GTF. And the next one. And the next one. And the next one.

I am sick of us constantly changing managers. We haven't had consistent results since Mowbray (and no, 20 games under Hughes don't count). Fenlon might not be Jesus incarnate but he is not the major problem here, a lack of concistency and the work ethic we have as a club - that seems to have hung around for a good few years now, whatever the manager - is to blame.

Why don't we actually back the bloody manager for once instead of demanding CHANGE, RIGHT NOW every time something goes wrong. Another manager will put us back to square one and you can bet your bloody house that within a few months of their appointment he'll be "not good enough" or "****in' *****" or "a shambles" or whatever the buzz word is for "get rid of the manager".

If we're still mediocre at the end of the 2013-14 season and Fenlon's still in charge - fair enough. Then we'll talk. But in my eyes the number one reason why we are failing as a club is this one little statistic: five managers in six years. And some people actually want to make it six. :rolleyes:

What's the point in keeping a manager so we don't end up with 6 managers in 6 years. I'd say the quality of manager is the problem, not the quality. Between Mowbray or Collins until Fenlon who would you have liked to have kept in the job longer?

bigwheel
31-03-2013, 07:37 AM
I like Pat Fenlon and I want him to succeed. I certainly don't think it would be appropriate to change manager at this time.

3 wins in 19 league games, and I reckon in only 3 of these games we've scored more than 1 goal (and won none of those either ). Those are facts that could lose him his job if he doesn't affect an upturn. Even a win in the Falkirk game won't be enough if those stats aren't improved between now and season's end..

ballengeich
31-03-2013, 09:06 AM
I've seen no evidence yet to show that PF is any better than a mediocre manager, but I'd give him a bit more time, given what he had to work with when he started.

Am I right in thinking that his contract takes him to the end of next season? If so it should be made clear to him that a top 6 finish next season is the minimum required for there to be any chance of an extension beyond summer 2014.

HFC 0-7
31-03-2013, 09:18 AM
I am undecided about Fenlon, I would give him more time, however, people on here who don't want him sacked because we would end up having another manager in a short period of time is crazy. We can't keep a manager because of the thought of having a 6th manager in 6 years is un appealing. Surely the only way a manager deserves more time is because you feel he is good enough.

the league placing this season doesn't really worry me, it's the way we are playing, the fact that we don't change anything when it's clear that something needs changed. The most worrying thing is that even with the manager having 16 + months in the job, the rebuilding exercise that we keep hearing will take time could have to start all over again. Players like Claros, griffiths and mcgivern could all be away and then we have to try to improve the squad from the season before but replace our best players at the same time.

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 09:18 AM
Personally I agree we cannae keep sacking managers however fenlon worries me, no plan b whatsoever (if there is even a plan a??). He needs to be given another year but if the unthinkable happens at hampden in 2 weeks time I fear he may be a goner!! Bottom 6 is a failure for a club of our size and resources and should never be viewed as anything different, and I dont care how bad we were last year!! Fenlon blew it, we have been top 6 all season till now!!!

I think this has become the new excuse of the century. I heard it this morning on the radio about Martin O'Neil too, its now labelled at most managers who don't win enough games.

HFC 0-7
31-03-2013, 09:21 AM
I think this has become the new excuse of the century. I heard it this morning on the radio about Martin O'Neil too, its now labelled at most managers who don't win enough games.

Do you think Fenlon does make changes in tactics and players during a game to affect the outcome? I don't, I think he just sticks with the same game plan but with fresher players. If a team has you worked out and is dealing with you easily, player changes very rarely work.

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 09:24 AM
Do you think Fenlon does make changes in tactics and players during a game to affect the outcome? I don't, I think he just sticks with the same game plan but with fresher players. If a team has you worked out and is dealing with you easily, player changes very rarely work.

He makes tactical and personnel changes most weeks, they just dont work. So his plan B does not work? :confused:

HFC 0-7
31-03-2013, 09:30 AM
He makes tactical and personnel changes most weeks, they just dont work. So his plan B does not work? :confused:

During a game? I don't think he does. The shape doesn't change, the one thing that doesn't work most weeks, the long punt, that remains from the 1st minute to the last minute with opposition defence lapping it up. His tactic for much of the season very much seems to be the hope that sparky gets a yard of space to shoot, which to be fair has worked in a few games.

I agree that he will change the line up and players each week, but what if that system doesn't work? That's where I think there is a struggle with Fenlon.

jon paul jones
31-03-2013, 09:51 AM
I can see it, but I can also see with a far better squad we're still only 8th in the league, 1 home win in the last nine league and only 1 league win this year. I can also, at times, see the football is dire to watch, the tactics are negative and we play 1 up front at home. I can also see that if it wasn't for one mans goals we'd be in a far worse position than we are.

The cup has kept our season alive and, if we make it, a final and place in Europe would be seen as success but for me the jury is still well and truly out with Fenlon. He's had a fair bit of time now yet home defeats which should be classed as shocks are now classed, and accepted, as routine. We've miles to go to be seen as a good, solid side and I'm not sure he can take us there. However, he deserves time and I'll back.

One thing I will say for his side is that at times they do seem capable of raising their game so maybe, just maybe, we're only two games away from him going down as our greatest manager ever!

Good points to raise. We've all been here countless times season after season (since '83 for me!!!!!!!). its looking like a continuation of very poor form in the second half of the season and one / two games from SC greatness. I'm afraid we all have our green tinted glasses on today as we have no FORM. If you're not winning games on a half regular basis or playing well or drawing games we should have won, there is only one way this season is going.

At the moment, i wouldnt put us as favourites for the semi final. And if super Leigh got an injury, we would be Donald Ducked....quite literally.

Post split, our form looks likely to continue against the fellow bottom five teams including some more embarassing results. The game yesterday was just not good enough and for the first time, i truly believe we have to start questioning whether Fenlon is good enough to tactically prepare us for match day.

marinello59
31-03-2013, 09:56 AM
I think this has become the new excuse of the century. I heard it this morning on the radio about Martin O'Neil too, its now labelled at most managers who don't win enough games.

It has become common parlance lately but despite the fact I feel as sick as a parrot I won't be resorting to speaking in cliches.

Tyler Durden
31-03-2013, 10:01 AM
It has become common parlance lately but despite the fact I feel as sick as a parrot I won't be resorting to speaking in cliches.

At the end of the day you need to take each post as it comes. Can't fault you for your effort today....

jon paul jones
31-03-2013, 10:04 AM
And another thing before the missus hauls me off the pc as i'm still spewing from yesterdays performance.

1. WHY play long balls against the tallest team in the SPL. We won bugger all in the air yesterday giving them the posession needed to get their two jammy poorly defended goals

2. In final third when we have possession, why, always, always, always, do we cut in from the wing and cross to the D. FFS, this never works. Go for the bye line and cross in or cut back for a midfielder running in on the diagonal. You see this every weekend on MOTD. (Its no suprise, ICT looked a bit rattled in the last 10 minutes when we started getting corners from this coz you are turning their defenders to running back towards goal.

Am i Mourinho? NO.... but why should we pay someone a gizillion pounds to set us up in a formation that was never going to allow our team to win a "must win game"

Off out to blow off steam and talk to the trees


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 10:07 AM
It has become common parlance lately but despite the fact I feel as sick as a parrot I won't be resorting to speaking in cliches.

Good for you, as long as you give it 110%, nobody will question you?

HibernianJK
31-03-2013, 10:23 AM
This is depressing to read. Of course he deserves more time. First half of the season showed he can make a difference. Lack of depth has shown as players have tired and a couple picked up little injuries. I don't count last January as a window so he's had two transfer windows to try and fix a broken club. Give him the summer. If by Xmas we haven't seen more improvement then it will be time to rethink.

Baldy Foghorn
31-03-2013, 10:28 AM
It has become common parlance lately but despite the fact I feel as sick as a parrot I won't be resorting to speaking in cliches.

It's been a season of two halves.....

Hibeesforever
31-03-2013, 10:28 AM
Anyone who wants him sacked doesn't have a clue. There's no point in even wasting your breath explaining to them because their mental capacity is too low to understand.

Here is our line up in his first game:


Stack

Hart
O'Hanlon
Stephens
Hanlon

Wotherspoon
Stevenson
Osbourne
Sproule

Griffiths
O'Connor

Compared with our best line up now:

Williams

Clancy
McPake
Hanlon
McGivern

Thomson
Robertson
Claros

Harris
Cairney

Griffiths

Anyone that can't see the improvement needs to have a re-think.

I believe in that last formation. They only have to win two Scottish Cup games in a row. The league is another story. East Mains needs to be a Boot camp rather than a holiday camp before that will happen.

Hibeez Boy!xx
31-03-2013, 10:32 AM
Martin O'Neill is available !!

Brilliant 👌

500miles
31-03-2013, 10:42 AM
I actually think the split is often a good tool to seperate teams who have nothing to play for most seasons.

However, this year it is a bit of a kick in the teeth. We've not had the rub of the green since Christmas, and it has cost us. Not just against Hearts and Dundee United, but even yesterday, the ball just fell so perfectly for their goals. While Sparky might not have known much about his goal, we should have had a penalty.

It's an unusually tight league, but I think, even in defeat, we compete, and that's a huge step forward from last year. The signing of Liam Craig also suggests to me that Pat knows what he needs to improve next season, so I think this year is the first time we've actually given ourselves a solid base to go forward from, even without Griffiths. Guys like Cairney and Doyle will have benefitted from a year in the SPL (although , I think they are both toiling with the step up in fitness, although another pre-season should rectify that) and although we may lose some loaness, most of Fenlon's signings suggest to me he has an eye for potential.

500miles
31-03-2013, 10:44 AM
I believe in that last formation. They only have to win two Scottish Cup games in a row. The league is another story. East Mains needs to be a Boot camp rather than a holiday camp before that will happen.

That last formation hasn't won ANY games. They've never played together. Injuries, lack of fitness after signing. It looks a good team, and if it gets together after the split, we could get some decent results and performances out of them.

BoltonHibee
31-03-2013, 11:15 AM
Fenlon is clueless.

Should never have been appointed in the first place, his football is brutal.

Yet another failed appointment from Petrie

Progress? My ****ing arse!

smurf
31-03-2013, 11:31 AM
Fenlon is clueless.

Should never have been appointed in the first place, his football is brutal.

Yet another failed appointment from Petrie

Progress? My ****ing arse!

Should we all assess the season now and turn on the manager it would be madness. We have a semi final against a very average Falkirk in the Scottish Cup. Let's see how we do in that. Hope that we get through that and then we are 90 mins away from Fenlon achieving something no other manager in our lifetime has. Progress or the lack of it needs to be assessed when the season for us ends.

Scottie
31-03-2013, 11:32 AM
Fenlon is clueless.

Should never have been appointed in the first place, his football is brutal.

Yet another failed appointment from Petrie

Progress? My ****ing arse!

Spot on BH.

The problem is at board level with appointments. NO MONEY = SHI*E PRODUCT

Lmc2105
31-03-2013, 11:38 AM
A would think that we have bigger budgets than cally well and county. but their manager has made the most of there budgets signing good players and playing football to suit who they have.

The issue I have with fenlon is that he hasnt signed the players we needed and also hasn't played that tactic to suit. IMO

Andy74
31-03-2013, 11:42 AM
A would think that we have bigger budgets than cally well and county. but their manager has made the most of there budgets signing good players and playing football to suit who they have.

The issue I have with fenlon is that he hasnt signed the players we needed and also hasn't played that tactic to suit. IMO

These teams have been built over time. We needed new players in every position. You can't get all the players you want in at the same time.

We have failed in our target that we'd have hoped for but that doesn't mean that the manager needs sacked.

The teams who have had some success have allowed managers to work through their long term plans.

Moyes is a decent example. They've had some periods of going backwards but stuck with it. We'd have had him sacked.

StarMan10
31-03-2013, 11:58 AM
Can't begin to even contemplate sacking Fenlon and having another ''Transitional Period''. Past 5 years its been like that. Time to back a manager for a change.

Can understand people's frustrations after what was a very promising start to the season,but we are higher in the league and have more points than where we were at the end of last season. To add to that we have a hugely important Semi-Final to look forward to. So although the progress isn't as major as it seemed at the start, it is still progress from what was a shambles of a club before Fenlon took over.

hibbydog
31-03-2013, 12:01 PM
These teams have been built over time. We needed new players in every position. You can't get all the players you want in at the same time.

We have failed in our target that we'd have hoped for but that doesn't mean that the manager needs sacked.

The teams who have had some success have allowed managers to work through their long term plans.

Moyes is a decent example. They've had some periods of going backwards but stuck with it. We'd have had him sacked.

Very sensible post.

Those who want Fenlon sacked should consider some facts

More points than last season a long time ago
More fighting spirit
Possible (probable) cup final appearance

Yes his signings have been hit and miss, but dammit, that's the end of the market we are working in. We have to, or we will end up like the yams and the pars.

Of the 6 managers that we've had in the last 10 years, only one has left the place in a better state than when they arrived. Kind of tells you a story.

Fenlon may or may not be the answer. but It is high time we backed a manager and gave him time ( like 2-3 years) before judging him.

Im really pissed off with the 'hibs got beat so we have to sack the manager' attitude.

I'd hazard a guess that the Fenlon haters lack the mental capacity to consider the above facts.

Fergus52
31-03-2013, 12:09 PM
Very sensible post.

Those who want Fenlon sacked should consider some facts

More points than last season a long time ago
More fighting spirit
Possible (probable) cup final appearance

Yes his signings have been hit and miss, but dammit, that's the end of the market we are working in. We have to, or we will end up like the yams and the pars.

Of the 6 managers that we've had in the last 10 years, only one has left the place in a better state than when they arrived. Kind of tells you a story.

Fenlon may or may not be the answer. but It is high time we backed a manager and gave him time ( like 2-3 years) before judging him.

Im really pissed off with the 'hibs got beat so we have to sack the manager' attitude.

I'd hazard a guess that the Fenlon haters lack the mental capacity to consider the above facts.

Good post!

The wee bit at the bottom won't go down too well though...

HUTCHYHIBBY
31-03-2013, 12:10 PM
Nobody has mentioned hating Fenlon in the numerous threads on the go.

Its nowt to do with Hibs losing one game its everything to do with winning one home league game in 4.5 months tho at least thats as much as my mental capacity will allow me to fathom.

cleanyman
31-03-2013, 12:11 PM
Spot on BH.

The problem is at board level with appointments. NO MONEY = SHI*E PRODUCT

And why is there no money?

Turn up to the ****ing games then.

Scottie
31-03-2013, 12:23 PM
Very sensible post.

Those who want Fenlon sacked should consider some facts

More points than last season a long time ago
More fighting spirit
Possible (probable) cup final appearance

Yes his signings have been hit and miss, but dammit, that's the end of the market we are working in. We have to, or we will end up like the yams and the pars.

Of the 6 managers that we've had in the last 10 years, only one has left the place in a better state than when they arrived. Kind of tells you a story.

Fenlon may or may not be the answer. but It is high time we backed a manager and gave him time ( like 2-3 years) before judging him.

Im really pissed off with the 'hibs got beat so we have to sack the manager' attitude.

I'd hazard a guess that the Fenlon haters lack the mental capacity to consider the above facts.

You show a total lack of respect for some of your fellow Hibees. :fuming:
Some of us do have the mental capacity to consider your facts above but to be honest the buck stops with the manager with signing's and performances.Again this season they have been shocking.PF can't seem to motivate or make the right decision at the right time during games. NONE of us want a revolving door for our managers and yes the board and the money men in an ideal world need to help as much as possible but unfortunately i don't see PF taking us any further than bottom 6 each and every year.
Lastly chicken's should not be counted reference the semi as at the mo Falkirk must be wishing the game is tomorrow the way we are playing at the minute. This Hibs team bear an uncanny resemblence to the team that finished last season. NO FIGHT NO DESIRE.

Beefster
31-03-2013, 12:28 PM
These teams have been built over time. We needed new players in every position. You can't get all the players you want in at the same time.

We have failed in our target that we'd have hoped for but that doesn't mean that the manager needs sacked.

The teams who have had some success have allowed managers to work through their long term plans.

Moyes is a decent example. They've had some periods of going backwards but stuck with it. We'd have had him sacked.

Moyes isn't a great example IMHO. He manages a team with, if they are lucky, resources somewhere in the middle of the EPL. Fenlon manages a club with resources comparable with anyone in the SPL, bar Celtic.

Scottie
31-03-2013, 12:31 PM
And why is there no money?

Turn up to the ****ing games then.

Hope it's no a personal dig mate as we are season ticket holders despite living 450 miles away that get up as much as we can to the games.

Add on top of that Merchandise bought it works out around £1000 p/a to follow the Hibs at home. Factor in away games on top (travel on top another £1500 a season for the 2 of us)
How much do you put into Hibs mate ?

Beefster
31-03-2013, 12:32 PM
I'd hazard a guess that the Fenlon haters lack the mental capacity to consider the above facts.

I love it when someone places themselves on an intellectual pedestal.

cleanyman
31-03-2013, 12:34 PM
Hope it's no a personal dig mate as we are season ticket holders despite living 450 miles away that get up as much as we can to the games.

Add on top of that Merchandise bought it works out around £1000 p/a to follow the Hibs at home. Factor in away games on top (travel on top another £1500 a season for the 2 of us)
How much do you put into Hibs mate ?

I spend more, but it doesn't matter.

It was a general point.

Scottie
31-03-2013, 12:44 PM
I spend more, but it doesn't matter.

It was a general point.

Are you STF ?

I agree with your general point.More people need to but ST but money is tight for everyone and especially to watch a product on the pitch that is poor.In what other industry do you pay a lot of money to go home utterly despondant ?

I congratulate you though for being the uber fan of the week :not worth

CallumLaidlaw
31-03-2013, 12:50 PM
Moyes isn't a great example IMHO. He manages a team with, if they are lucky, resources somewhere in the middle of the EPL. Fenlon manages a club with resources comparable with anyone in the SPL, bar Celtic.

That, and if you go on Everton forums, there are a lot of Everton fans that crazily want moyes to go!!

Andy74
31-03-2013, 12:53 PM
Moyes isn't a great example IMHO. He manages a team with, if they are lucky, resources somewhere in the middle of the EPL. Fenlon manages a club with resources comparable with anyone in the SPL, bar Celtic.

And for periods Moyes had them in trouble near the bottom. He was allowed to work through it and is now probably outperforming where they should be.

cleanyman
31-03-2013, 12:59 PM
Are you STF ?

I agree with your general point.More people need to but ST but money is tight for everyone and especially to watch a product on the pitch that is poor.In what other industry do you pay a lot of money to go home utterly despondant ?

I congratulate you though for being the uber fan of the week :not worth

I wasn't the one outlining how much i spent....

Pumpfest.

Scottie
31-03-2013, 01:03 PM
I wasn't the one outlining how much i spent....

Pumpfest.

If it's a general point don't quote someone then.SIMPLE.

Pumpfest ? :giruy:

Jones28
31-03-2013, 01:05 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

cleanyman
31-03-2013, 01:06 PM
If it's a general point don't quote someone then.SIMPLE.

Pumpfest ? :giruy:

NAW.

Sassij.

cleanyman
31-03-2013, 01:07 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

+1

Heisenberg
31-03-2013, 01:08 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

Exactly.

Andy74
31-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

Correct.

HUTCHYHIBBY
31-03-2013, 01:10 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

CC & Hibs isn't! ;-)

Emerald
31-03-2013, 01:15 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

Terry Butcher played at the highest level in England, Scotland and internationally. He captained England, played in world cups etc. etc...... Pat Fenlon on the other hand came from part time LOI football. Now who would you put your mortgage on if you had to give someone time, especially when they have had time, changed an entire team and are still bottom six of the worst SPL in history? :hmmm:

Beefster
31-03-2013, 01:15 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

When did Butcher have ICT under-performing? AFAIK, he's had them over-performing compared to their resources every season since he got them back into the SPL.

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 01:16 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.

I'd say Butcher does not get backed as much as most teams in the SPL, he got time, but most teams spend much more than he does.

I'm all for giving him more time, just as i was all for giving Hughes more time. Yet there does become a time when you have to ask are we just giving that man more time just for the sake of it?

At this minute in time, Fenlon has failed in what he's been set out to do, but in 6 weeks time he could become a Hibernian legend.

Lets wait until the end of our cup run before we all go into meltdown.

Andy74
31-03-2013, 01:27 PM
Terry Butcher played at the highest level in England, Scotland and internationally. He captained England, played in world cups etc. etc...... Pat Fenlon on the other hand came from part time LOI football. Now who would you put your mortgage on if you had to give someone time, especially when they have had time, changed an entire team and are still bottom six of the worst SPL in history? :hmmm:

I see you are wisely steering clear of comparing their managerial records.

Emerald
31-03-2013, 01:29 PM
I see you are wisely steering clear of comparing their managerial records.

Yes :greengrin

DH1875
31-03-2013, 01:39 PM
Terry butcher and Inverness are a perfect example of why backing a manger works.


Terry Butcher has built almost an entirely new team at ICT in the same time frame as Fenlon has with us :confused:. If Butcher had been given the job when Fenlon got it I bet they'd still be miles ahead of us, which is a shocking state of affairs. I get that we are no Real Madrid and in world wide terms we are small fry BUT in the Scottish game we are a bigger club than ICT, Ross County, St Johnstone, Motherwell and Killie.

We really should be doing much better than we have been.

pacorosssco
31-03-2013, 01:41 PM
Who? You or Fenlon? :confused:

i called it a day to late last night. now over to pf

hibbydog
31-03-2013, 02:27 PM
I love it when someone places themselves on an intellectual pedestal.

No intellectual pedestal matey. Just common sense ie every time we change a manager it leaves us with the same problems. So why dont the Fenlon haters consider this? Do they really think we could possibly get someone in who could change things?

Like it or not, we are a better side than last season, and the manager is making progress in steady incremental steps. That's reason enough for him to keep his job in my book.

hibbydog
31-03-2013, 02:37 PM
You show a total lack of respect for some of your fellow Hibees. :fuming:
Some of us do have the mental capacity to consider your facts above but to be honest the buck stops with the manager with signing's and performances.Again this season they have been shocking.PF can't seem to motivate or make the right decision at the right time during games. NONE of us want a revolving door for our managers and yes the board and the money men in an ideal world need to help as much as possible but unfortunately i don't see PF taking us any further than bottom 6 each and every year.
Lastly chicken's should not be counted reference the semi as at the mo Falkirk must be wishing the game is tomorrow the way we are playing at the minute. This Hibs team bear an uncanny resemblence to the team that finished last season. NO FIGHT NO DESIRE.

I'm sorry my post comes across that way. It's just that the 'sack the manager' argument will undo a lot of good work done this year.

No fight no desire basically because the soft culture at our club started with the player revolt in 2007 and continues every time we change manager. Can't change that overnight

RecobasUncle
31-03-2013, 02:42 PM
Anyone who wants him sacked doesn't have a clue. There's no point in even wasting your breath explaining to them because their mental capacity is too low to understand.

Here is our line up in his first game:

Cack

Compared with our best line up now:

Not so cack

Anyone that can't see the improvement needs to have a re-think.

If we have such an improved team why can't we beat teams at home? We didn't even get a point and this is at a crucial time in the season when we need to make top 6.

If it is not the fault of these supposedly much improved players that we can't even scrape a point at home when it matters then the list of who could be to blame narrows.

Also, putting the result aside the football outwith the first quarter was simply rubbish. If we are not a results oriented team then we need to be an entertainment based team. Right now we are neither.

Emerald
31-03-2013, 02:48 PM
I'm sorry my post comes across that way. It's just that the 'sack the manager' argument will undo a lot of good work done this year.

No fight no desire basically because the soft culture at our club started with the player revolt in 2007 and continues every time we change manager. Can't change that overnight

I bet Alex Ferguson would change it overnight and no, I'm not saying we should get him before anyone starts. My point is a good, hard, respected manager that knew what he was doing could get a team like Hibs doing much better than they are in this crap SPL. Tam McCourt could have improved the team over CC's. Pat Fenlon has had time, changed just about an entire team and will be lucky not to finish in the same place as we did last year. I have no faith in his ability to change an entire team again in the summer, given we will more than likely loose the best players we have at the moment. How much time and money do we give him? :dunno:

inglisavhibs
31-03-2013, 02:56 PM
A slight improvement in the League doesn't mean all that much when Rangers aren't in the league, Hearts have lost most of their team, and most other teams have cut back. Fenlon has been allowed to sign a lot of players who clearly would cost more in wages than the players most of the teams above us have signed, so I don't think a slight improvement is enough. He will obviously keep his job as long as we are in the Cup, but if Falkirk put us out I think he will go, as frankly there are plenty of other managers who could do a lot better.
That about sums it up. A few years ago we all said that Hibs being run properly would bear fruit in time. That time should have been this season with Hearts in disarray, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd skint and Sevco out the league. What has happened instead is that Motherwell, Inverness and Ross County have fared much better on budgets significantly lower than ours. An opportunity has been lost and I don't really see it improving any time soon. I will be one of many thousands going through to Hampden but I don't know any HIbby who is genuinely confident of victory. We can only hope.

Steve-O
31-03-2013, 03:02 PM
No intellectual pedestal matey. Just common sense ie every time we change a manager it leaves us with the same problems. So why dont the Fenlon haters consider this? Do they really think we could possibly get someone in who could change things?

Like it or not, we are a better side than last season, and the manager is making progress in steady incremental steps. That's reason enough for him to keep his job in my book.

What if we finish 11th and get pumped out the cup by Falkirk - will we still be a better side than last season? I'd say that'd make us marginally worse...

Green Fish
31-03-2013, 03:03 PM
We have to keep faith with PF. This could be a great season for us but imo next season will be the time to judge.

Yes we are harder to beat but we are getting beaten and the style of play is dire.

PF has to get the mf playing better, more inventive football. Is he up to it, i'm not sure but i hope so.

Emerald
31-03-2013, 03:08 PM
]We have to keep faith with PF[/B]. This could be a great season for us but imo next season will be the time to judge.

Yes we are harder to beat but we are getting beaten and the style of play is dire.

PF has to get the mf playing better, more inventive football. Is he up to it, i'm not sure but i hope so.

I agree with most of what you say but why do we have to keep the faith in PF. There is no law that says PF should be the one manager in our history that is given time that others didn't get. I go every week hoping I can see a vision of where he is taking us but all I see (as another thread says) is sideways, sideways, backwards, hoof the ball, loose possession and repeat. So again, why do we HAVE to keep the faith in PF?

hibbydog
31-03-2013, 03:12 PM
What if we finish 11th and get pumped out the cup by Falkirk - will we still be a better side than last season? I'd say that'd make us marginally worse...

Probably would make us slightly worse to be fair

Steve-O
31-03-2013, 03:12 PM
Looking on from afar, I just can't believe this is happening again. Bar about 3 months in total, Hibs have been absolutely ganting almost since the day I left Edinburgh - November 2007. They drew 2-2 at home to Dundee Utd that day and it's basically been downhill ever since!

hibbydog
31-03-2013, 03:28 PM
Looking on from afar, I just can't believe this is happening again. Bar about 3 months in total, Hibs have been absolutely ganting almost since the day I left Edinburgh - November 2007. They drew 2-2 at home to Dundee Utd that day and it's basically been downhill ever since!
Your fault then mate. Come back !!!

khib70
31-03-2013, 03:32 PM
The rest of this post is absolutely pants.

We need to stabilize the club. Fenlon has come in, got rid of what was more than a team last summer and is re shaping it. People saying that it was HIM that just avoided relegation pardon my french but don't talk s**t. He inherited an absolute stinker of a squad. Those two starting 11's confirms it for me. IF it wasn't for 2 absolute honking assistant refereeing decisions this thread wouldn't be here.

IMHO bottom 6 could work out for us. Let's be honest what would we get top 6? A game against Celtic at Easter Road? Europe? We were never getting 3rd or 4th anyways, and potentially could have lost all 5 games. Bottom 6... We get a chance to play some youngsters, rest a few guys, and who knows maybe get a morale boosting derby victory the week before the final.

As for sacking Fenlon...I don't think that is the answer. He needs another full season for me. This season was transitional, not just from CC but from previous managers too. Let's maybe judge him come January, but as I say end of next season for me.
Fixed that for you....

"Bottom 6 could work out for us".Jeez, get a grip. Have we lost any ambition for our club? That's about the most abject defeatist statement I've ever heard on here.

Fenlon's eye-bleeding non-football was, in the words of his fanclub , necessary to "get results", "win ugly" and be "hard to beat". So what's the justification now, in the light of pisspoor league results, losing ugly, and being pretty damned easy to beat?

The lovein brigade are losing credibility by the game, and, as someone posted earlier, the manager is getting the easiest ride of any unsuccessful Hibs manager in history. The season was "transitional", was it? Going from abysmal to dreadful isn't much of a transition, is it.
I suspect the cheerleading will get worse, now the "once a season if you're lucky" tin pot hunters are on board...

Green Fish
31-03-2013, 03:37 PM
I agree with most of what you say but why do we have to keep the faith in PF. There is no law that says PF should be the one manager in our history that is given time that others didn't get. I go every week hoping I can see a vision of where he is taking us but all I see (as another thread says) is sideways, sideways, backwards, hoof the ball, loose possession and repeat. So again, why do we HAVE to keep the faith in PF?

Agree but what will another sacking acheive. I think PF knows whst he needs to do and the signing of Liam Craig gives me hope of a change of style.

Because we keep losing possession with our negative mf it straight away puts pressure on the defence.

I hope PF has it in him.

Emerald
31-03-2013, 03:43 PM
Agree but what will another sacking acheive. I think PF knows whst he needs to do and the signing of Liam Craig gives me hope of a change of style.

Because we keep losing possession with our negative mf it straight away puts pressure on the defence.

I hope PF has it in him.

Signing Liam Craig is a good move but if we loose Leigh Griffiths and persist with the same tactics, it can only go one way. I don't think you can say that sacking PF isn't the answer though, it might be and then again it might not be. I just know the camp I'm in.

hibbydog
31-03-2013, 03:48 PM
Looking on from afar, I just can't believe this is happening again. Bar about 3 months in total, Hibs have been absolutely ganting almost since the day I left Edinburgh - November 2007. They drew 2-2 at home to Dundee Utd that day and it's basically been downhill ever since!
Your fault then mate. Come back !!!

weonlywon6-2
31-03-2013, 03:48 PM
So i guess if we beat celtic next weekend all will be forgotten again

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 03:58 PM
Fixed that for you....

"Bottom 6 could work out for us".Jeez, get a grip. Have we lost any ambition for our club? That's about the most abject defeatist statement I've ever heard on here.

Fenlon's eye-bleeding non-football was, in the words of his fanclub , necessary to "get results", "win ugly" and be "hard to beat". So what's the justification now, in the light of pisspoor league results, losing ugly, and being pretty damned easy to beat?

The lovein brigade are losing credibility by the game, and, as someone posted earlier, the manager is getting the easiest ride of any unsuccessful Hibs manager in history. The season was "transitional", was it? Going from abysmal to dreadful isn't much of a transition, is it.
I suspect the cheerleading will get worse, now the "once a season if you're lucky" tin pot hunters are on board...

I'm going to say finishing in the bottom 6 could be a blessing in disguise, only because we are in the cup semi final. If we'd scraped into the top 6, we'd have more high pressure games and have to pick the team accordingly. I'm not saying a bottom 6 finish is a good thing, its another failure upon a long list of them recently.

The cup is now our priority, what happens now in the league is an irrelevance now in my opinion. If we get to the final, then we have a chance to win it, if we lose then this place will melt.

Fenlon had us playing some decent stuff early last this season, and i was impressed at how we'd changed from a team of complete bottle merchants, to a team that were up for a battle.

Well thats changed, and i put it down to a few things. Injuries to our back 4, we have not had a settled back 4 all season, and we have had 2 of them out for long parts of it. We then have had to play 2 fringe players who do weaken us.

Fenlon also has to take some of the blame for not bringing in another decent striker, and filling the squad with midfielders.

I saw enough early on to suggest he could get things right, i could be wrong but i feel Fenlon deserves a chance to try again next season.

RecobasUncle
31-03-2013, 05:40 PM
I'm going to say finishing in the bottom 6 could be a blessing in disguise

If we'd scraped into the top 6, we'd have more high pressure games and have to pick the team accordingly.

I'm not saying a bottom 6 finish is a good thing



A blessing in disguise? Ah, I understand now! So also, whenever we lose Pat Fenlon actually takes the credit as that's also a blessing in disguise? No?

Do you realise that we could also have finished top 6 and then rested players?

It seems like mediocrity and the acceptance of it is the prevailing trend here. This isn't the sort of attitude that's going to help the team, no matter how nice it may seem. The fact that someone would actually be happy we would avoid 'more high pressure games' says it all.

Is it going to be easier to attract good players when we don't finish top 6? Is earning less money from league position going to help in that regard?

I suppose relying on one player to score goals is also a blessing?(see our league position and recent results if not sure) Perhaps having a defence that can't even maintain a 1-1 result at home when said player scores be a blessing?

For the record I would love it if we somehow scraped top 6, but I would also love it if I won the lottery!

NAE NOOKIE
31-03-2013, 05:45 PM
If the honeymoon period isnt over its pretty close to being.

Yesterday was a huge game for us and we failed to produce and for any manager that is the acid test. I dont subscribe to any lack of effort theory ... but we didnt do a good jub of getting close to our men in midfield, meaning that ICT were picking up a lot of loose balls and getting too much time to find a pass.

Yet again we got the ball across the box and there was no midfielder running in to take advantage .... when is Fenlon going to recognise the number of scoring opportunities that are being missed because we dont have at least one midfielder willing to take a risk?

The top six is now a bust ... even if we did pull off a miracle at celtic we still wont make it IMO.

I would never disrespect another club by thinking we are a cert to beat them, but its a fact that we are playing Falkirk in a fortnight, not an SPL club. Failure to win that game will be a massive nail in PF's coffin and mean the season has been a failure. Having said that, if we do beat Falkirk then the next step is the cup final against either celtic or Dundee Utd. I havn't seen anything since Christmas to give me any hope that we could turn over either of these clubs at Hampden ..... even without our Scottish cup hoodoo.

Then we have the end of the season:

The chances are we will lose Griffiths, McGivern and Claros and that Thomson will find a club willing to pay him more than two grand per week. Thats three of our best players and a guy who's quality is not in question if he gets fit ... how can we hope to replace them with anything near as good? Not to mention that ( the odd gaff aside ) Ben Williams has looked good. With decent keepers at a premium whos to say somebody wont come in for him. If we are doing badly now with these players in the team pity help us if we cant replace them.

Three bright spots .... Young Harris looks like he could be really good if he continues to play like he did yesterday and we have a potentially decent signing in Liam Craig. Also for some reason our cup form has been better than our league form so in spite of what I said earlier perhaps we might get the breaks when we need them ..... Hey ... ye canny beat a bit o' straw clutching.

Bottom line ....... PF should be given as much time as is reasonable to get it right ... but if we are still a bottom six ( or middle eight ) team in an average league in which we should be a heavyweight next season, then not only will it be time for PF to admit that the games up it will also be time for the folk running the club to admit they are not up to the job either.

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 05:59 PM
A blessing in disguise? Ah, I understand now! So also, whenever we lose Pat Fenlon actually takes the credit as that's also a blessing in disguise? No?

Do you realise that we could also have finished top 6 and then rested players?

It seems like mediocrity and the acceptance of it is the prevailing trend here. This isn't the sort of attitude that's going to help the team, no matter how nice it may seem. The fact that someone would actually be happy we would avoid 'more high pressure games' says it all.

Is it going to be easier to attract good players when we don't finish top 6? Is earning less money from league position going to help in that regard?

I suppose relying on one player to score goals is also a blessing?(see our league position and recent results if not sure) Perhaps having a defence that can't even maintain a 1-1 result at home when said player scores be a blessing?

For the record I would love it if we somehow scraped top 6, but I would also love it if I won the lottery!

The only problem i can see with that scenario is we've not finished in the top 6. So the rest of your post is just waffle about what could have been.

The facts are we are in the bottom 6, with a semi final that we are well capable of winning. We must take every advantage we can from the position we find ourself in, to make sure we get through that tie. And if that means resting some players next week so be it. And if we win that tie, then we make bloody sure all our players are in tip top condition for the final.

RecobasUncle
31-03-2013, 06:39 PM
My post was not just 'waffle' about what could have been. It is about where we are now and the effects it will have on the club.

If you wanted a better definition I would instead suggest supporting Pat Fenlon blindly when his team is consistently losing football matches, sliding down the table and playing poor football. League form is a better indication of where the team is going. He, by his own admission sees bottom 6 as failure. Getting to the final would be great but that is just papering over the cracks.

The facts are our league form has been shoddy since 2013 and that we play horrific football.

Saying we might be able to win two games(including against the team that beat Barcelona) and that the league is suddenly(32 games in) an irrelevance is a load of rubbish.

I've seen some comments from Pat and he is still clinging on the the idea of top 6. Sadly your hope of beating Celtic in the final(much as I would love it) is more firmly rooted in reality than Pat's idea of getting top 6.

Sudds_1
31-03-2013, 07:36 PM
What exact difference has he made ?

We are the same very poor team that we were last season but with more of PF own players

Why is he getting such an easy ride of some people. Unbelievable :confused:



You don't see a difference over last season?

Unbelievable :rolleyes:

Robinho08
31-03-2013, 07:47 PM
Yawn, expectations are far too high imo. It's not going to happen over night.

Saorsa
31-03-2013, 07:53 PM
Yawn, expectations are far too high imo. It's not going to happen over night.No! No! No! It must happen immediately if not sooner. :agree:

Scouse Hibee
31-03-2013, 07:56 PM
Yawn, expectations are far too high imo. It's not going to happen over night.


:agree: The expectations of our expectations are far too high.:greengrin

WestEndHibee
31-03-2013, 08:02 PM
Once again hibs fans react terribly to a loss. How can any hibee say that we haven't improved from last year? Does no-one at all remember how absolutely mind-numbingly awful it was even just going to a game? This year I go to games with optimism! There's just that bit more of a spark this season, like you can see something special at any point. Surely that's progress in itself? Have we not learned that sacking a manager doesn't help us? Honestly it seems like no-one remembers anything beyond the last 90 minutes of football we played!

sleeping giant
31-03-2013, 08:05 PM
He gets at least another season for me.

In 2 games time he could go down as one of our best ever managers.

I'm as unhappy as the next man regarding recent form and results but to sack him would be madness imo.


It does seriously concern me though that we are going to have to have another major rebuilding job at the end of the season.

Scouse Hibee
31-03-2013, 08:10 PM
Once again hibs fans react terribly to a loss. How can any hibee say that we haven't improved from last year? Does no-one at all remember how absolutely mind-numbingly awful it was even just going to a game? This year I go to games with optimism! There's just that bit more of a spark this season, like you can see something special at any point. Surely that's progress in itself? Have we not learned that sacking a manager doesn't help us? Honestly it seems like no-one remembers anything beyond the last 90 minutes of football we played!


Those with memory problems can look at the league table for clarification, you know fine well that most of us realise there has been improvement from last season. It's not just about that though is it? Or if it is let's just accept this pish bottom six and then accept 6th place next season as improvement shall we.

Stringer
31-03-2013, 08:26 PM
Fenlon has been lucky Griffiths and Williams have been world beaters this year. They are the only reason we are in the semi and the only reason we beat Celtic at home

Onion
31-03-2013, 08:44 PM
He gets at least another season for me.

In 2 games time he could go down as one of our best ever managers.

I'm as unhappy as the next man regarding recent form and results but to sack him would be madness imo.


It does seriously concern me though that we are going to have to have another major rebuilding job at the end of the season.

:agree:IMHO it's embarrassing that some are calling for Fenlon to go at this point. His team has a very realistic chance of getting to the SC final, and in a one-of game could actually become the most successful Hibs team in 50 years. The time for question is not now. Let's leave this until after the Falkirk Semi, or the Final or whatever.

hibbydog
31-03-2013, 08:56 PM
:agree:IMHO it's embarrassing that some are calling for Fenlon to go at this point. His team has a very realistic chance of getting to the SC final, and in a one-of game could actually become the most successful Hibs team in 50 years. The time for question is not now. Let's leave this until after the Falkirk Semi, or the Final or whatever.

This

Andy74
31-03-2013, 09:42 PM
Fenlon has been lucky Griffiths and Williams have been world beaters this year. They are the only reason we are in the semi and the only reason we beat Celtic at home

So presumably he is unlucky some of the others haven't been as good?

matty_f
31-03-2013, 11:05 PM
Yawn, expectations are far too high imo. It's not going to happen over night.

It's not really overnight now, though, is it? Fenlon has been in charge at Hibs since 25th November 2011. We're now a few minutes into 1st April 2013.

It's nowhere near overnight. For me, we should now be seeing a team playing with a coherent and recognisable style. Players attacking with pace and purpose with a clear sense of what they're doing. And we should be consistently organised and robust in defence. It shouldn't take 14 or 15 months to get a team playing the way you want it to, which to me indicates that we're playing more or less how Fenlon wants us to, and that's a huge concern because it's pish, boring, negative football.

Mowbray had us playing good football a pre-season after taking over from Bobby f*****g Williamson. He had no money to spend and took a team of kids and turned them into cracking players. But crucially for the point I'm making, he had a style of football that was recognisable and implimented within no more than a couple of months at the club.

Ian Murray has got Dumbarton playing good football and he's been there no time at all, and that's with working with the players part-time!! There's only so long that you can use the excuse that we were pish under CC before you have to look at how successful Pat's been.

He can't complain about resources, because he's had more than most teams. He's got better facilities than most with which to work with his players. He gets a very supportive and healthy crowd, bigger than most other SPL sides coming to watch his team. We haven't been on the players' backs like we were under Yogi and CC. Fenlon can have very few excuses or complaints.

I'm not calling for a sacking, I desperately want Pat to do well because I think there's something there, and if he does well then Hibs do well, but he can't be above questioning when we don't meet some minimum targets. He got off very lightly when we lost to Queen of the South in the league cup, but he can't escape criticism for missing top 6 - especially with the start to the season we had. We were top of the league in November and we've been on a steady decline ever since, with Pat seemingly unable to arrest the slide.

The honeymoon period is definitely over.

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 11:15 PM
It's not really overnight now, though, is it? Fenlon has been in charge at Hibs since 25th November 2011. We're now a few minutes into 1st April 2013.

It's nowhere near overnight. For me, we should now be seeing a team playing with a coherent and recognisable style. Players attacking with pace and purpose with a clear sense of what they're doing. And we should be consistently organised and robust in defence. It shouldn't take 14 or 15 months to get a team playing the way you want it to, which to me indicates that we're playing more or less how Fenlon wants us to, and that's a huge concern because it's pish, boring, negative football.

Mowbray had us playing good football a pre-season after taking over from Bobby f*****g Williamson. He had no money to spend and took a team of kids and turned them into cracking players. But crucially for the point I'm making, he had a style of football that was recognisable and implimented within no more than a couple of months at the club.

Ian Murray has got Dumbarton playing good football and he's been there no time at all, and that's with working with the players part-time!! There's only so long that you can use the excuse that we were pish under CC before you have to look at how successful Pat's been.

He can't complain about resources, because he's had more than most teams. He's got better facilities than most with which to work with his players. He gets a very supportive and healthy crowd, bigger than most other SPL sides coming to watch his team. We haven't been on the players' backs like we were under Yogi and CC. Fenlon can have very few excuses or complaints.

I'm not calling for a sacking, I desperately want Pat to do well because I think there's something there, and if he does well then Hibs do well, but he can't be above questioning when we don't meet some minimum targets. He got off very lightly when we lost to Queen of the South in the league cup, but he can't escape criticism for missing top 6 - especially with the start to the season we had. We were top of the league in November and we've been on a steady decline ever since, with Pat seemingly unable to arrest the slide.

The honeymoon period is definitely over.

Flooding the squad with midfielders has not helped, when its was as clear as the nose on his face it was a decent forward we needed.

matty_f
31-03-2013, 11:21 PM
Flooding the squad with midfielders has not helped, when its was as clear as the nose on his face it was a decent forward we needed.

We have a more than decent forward, he just doesn't get the ball enough. I'd like to see the Doyle/Griffiths partnership where they're not having to come as deep as they do, or as wide as they do, to get the ball. Wingers would have been a good shout, in the end we get Done who really hasn't shown anything yet.


(I can't believe that we're into Monday and I'm still raging about the game. Does my head in, this does!:greengrin)

TowerHibs
31-03-2013, 11:25 PM
what's funny is most people would be outraged if we appointed Jimmy calderwood yet I fail to see how he is a poor manager

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 11:28 PM
We have a more than decent forward, he just doesn't get the ball enough. I'd like to see the Doyle/Griffiths partnership where they're not having to come as deep as they do, or as wide as they do, to get the ball. Wingers would have been a good shout, in the end we get Done who really hasn't shown anything yet.


(I can't believe that we're into Monday and I'm still raging about the game. Does my head in, this does!:greengrin)

I was not even there, but i'm still raging. :agree: Griffiths has had to do far too much on his own all season, just how many midfielders do we need? And not having another decent forward has dictated the way we play, and virtually made us play 5 in midfield.

He better get us to that final, or all hell will erupt. :boo hoo:

Sir David Gray
31-03-2013, 11:34 PM
If Pat Fenlon is either sacked or "mutually consented" before the end of next season then we need to conduct an overhaul of the senior management within the club, not just within the coaching set up but at boardroom level as well.

Getting rid of yet another manager who has completed just one full season in charge would just be unacceptable and should mean that major changes take place as I think a lot of positions at the club would then be untenable, if we were forced to admit that we had made yet another management failure.

matty_f
31-03-2013, 11:38 PM
If Pat Fenlon is either sacked or "mutually consented" before the end of next season then we need to conduct an overhaul of the senior management within the club, not just within the coaching set up but at boardroom level as well.

Getting rid of yet another manager who has completed just one full season in charge would just be unacceptable and should mean that major changes take place as I think a lot of positions at the club would then be untenable, if we were forced to admit that we had made yet another management failure.

We already had an overhaul at senior boardroom level - both Scott Lindsay and Fife Hyland left the club they were running.

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 11:39 PM
We already had an overhaul at senior boardroom level - both Scott Lindsay and Fife Hyland left the club they were running.

Who appoints the managers?

matty_f
31-03-2013, 11:48 PM
Who appoints the managers?

IIRC we were told it was Scott and Fife that hired Pat Fenlon.

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 11:50 PM
IIRC we were told it was Scott and Fife that hired Pat Fenlon.

Is this true, I was under the impression it was Petries call?

matty_f
31-03-2013, 11:55 PM
Is this true, I was under the impression it was Petries call?

IIRC there was a lot of noise at the time about Petrie taking a back seat in the process given how unsuccessful the previous managers had been. If I'm remembering right the fact that Petrie unveiled Fenlon as manager got some folks' backs up as he hadn't been involved in the process (and therefore shouldn't have been unveiling the manager).

blackpoolhibs
31-03-2013, 11:59 PM
IIRC there was a lot of noise at the time about Petrie taking a back seat in the process given how unsuccessful the previous managers had been. If I'm remembering right the fact that Petrie unveiled Fenlon as manager got some folks' backs up as he hadn't been involved in the process (and therefore shouldn't have been unveiling the manager).

I remember him bringing Pat out and introducing him to the media. Maybe its just me but i cant see him not having the final say on who we hire and fire as manager?

Sir David Gray
01-04-2013, 12:00 AM
We already had an overhaul at senior boardroom level - both Scott Lindsay and Fife Hyland left the club they were running.

I would say that further changes would be required if we were forced into removing yet another manager due to underperformance on the pitch.

If Pat Fenlon is forcibly removed from his position after failing to complete 2 full seasons, then that will mean that our last 4 managers will all have either been sacked or left by "mutual consent" after being at the club for less than 2 seasons.

Not good enough, in fact since Alex Miller left in 1996 we have had 10 permanent managers in those 17 years, which is far too many. Having been in charge now for almost 18 months, Fenlon is already our longest serving manager since Mowbray. That's just nonsense.

matty_f
01-04-2013, 12:06 AM
I remember him bringing Pat out and introducing him to the media. Maybe its just me but i cant see him not having the final say on who we hire and fire as manager?

He probably did have final say in terms of giving the nod, but I'd expect he trusted the judgement of Scott and Fife to make the decision.

Bishop Hibee
01-04-2013, 12:11 AM
I've backed Fenlon since his appointment and still do. His team selection on Saturday was the first time I've really began to question him. Three holding midfield players in the middle of the park with no one playing on the right and a right footed player playing on the left. Fair play to Harris and Thomson as they were our best players but Taiwo was anonymous and Deegan gave us nothing going forward in a game we really needed to win.

We never created anywhere near enough chances to win the game. Doyle showed his limitations and why no one will be particularly bothered when he leaves. The semi is a huge game for us. If we win then a blind eye will be turned to Fenlon's strange team selection but lose and the knives will be out and he daren't lose at Tiny.

spike220
01-04-2013, 04:37 AM
I am not sure PF ever had a Honeymoon period, I think he has had to fight for every result and point we have got, it is not like he started with many decent players on the books.

GGTTH

Weir7
01-04-2013, 06:06 AM
He probably did have final say in terms of giving the nod, but I'd expect he trusted the judgement of Scott and Fife to make the decision.

Hahahahha brilliant. And I believe in Santa.

One man runs Hibs - Rod

Beefster
01-04-2013, 07:39 AM
I am not sure PF ever had a Honeymoon period, I think he has had to fight for every result and point we have got, it is not like he started with many decent players on the books.

GGTTH

A manager who wasn't in a honeymoon period would have never have survived last May without large swathes of the support turning against him.

On this thread as a whole, there are lots of folk whose only justification for not wanting Fenlon binned is that 'we can't keep sacking managers'. Not much of an endorsement.

BEEJ
01-04-2013, 12:16 PM
It's not really overnight now, though, is it? Fenlon has been in charge at Hibs since 25th November 2011. We're now a few minutes into 1st April 2013.

It's nowhere near overnight. For me, we should now be seeing a team playing with a coherent and recognisable style. Players attacking with pace and purpose with a clear sense of what they're doing. And we should be consistently organised and robust in defence. It shouldn't take 14 or 15 months to get a team playing the way you want it to, which to me indicates that we're playing more or less how Fenlon wants us to, and that's a huge concern because it's pish, boring, negative football.

Mowbray had us playing good football a pre-season after taking over from Bobby f*****g Williamson. He had no money to spend and took a team of kids and turned them into cracking players. But crucially for the point I'm making, he had a style of football that was recognisable and implimented within no more than a couple of months at the club.

Ian Murray has got Dumbarton playing good football and he's been there no time at all, and that's with working with the players part-time!! There's only so long that you can use the excuse that we were pish under CC before you have to look at how successful Pat's been.

He can't complain about resources, because he's had more than most teams. He's got better facilities than most with which to work with his players. He gets a very supportive and healthy crowd, bigger than most other SPL sides coming to watch his team. We haven't been on the players' backs like we were under Yogi and CC. Fenlon can have very few excuses or complaints.

I'm not calling for a sacking, I desperately want Pat to do well because I think there's something there, and if he does well then Hibs do well, but he can't be above questioning when we don't meet some minimum targets. He got off very lightly when we lost to Queen of the South in the league cup, but he can't escape criticism for missing top 6 - especially with the start to the season we had. We were top of the league in November and we've been on a steady decline ever since, with Pat seemingly unable to arrest the slide.

The honeymoon period is definitely over.
:agree:

Excellent summary of PF's current position.

Weir7
01-04-2013, 12:41 PM
It's not really overnight now, though, is it? Fenlon has been in charge at Hibs since 25th November 2011. We're now a few minutes into 1st April 2013.

It's nowhere near overnight. For me, we should now be seeing a team playing with a coherent and recognisable style. Players attacking with pace and purpose with a clear sense of what they're doing. And we should be consistently organised and robust in defence. It shouldn't take 14 or 15 months to get a team playing the way you want it to, which to me indicates that we're playing more or less how Fenlon wants us to, and that's a huge concern because it's pish, boring, negative football.

Mowbray had us playing good football a pre-season after taking over from Bobby f*****g Williamson. He had no money to spend and took a team of kids and turned them into cracking players. But crucially for the point I'm making, he had a style of football that was recognisable and implimented within no more than a couple of months at the club.

Ian Murray has got Dumbarton playing good football and he's been there no time at all, and that's with working with the players part-time!! There's only so long that you can use the excuse that we were pish under CC before you have to look at how successful Pat's been.

He can't complain about resources, because he's had more than most teams. He's got better facilities than most with which to work with his players. He gets a very supportive and healthy crowd, bigger than most other SPL sides coming to watch his team. We haven't been on the players' backs like we were under Yogi and CC. Fenlon can have very few excuses or complaints.

I'm not calling for a sacking, I desperately want Pat to do well because I think there's something there, and if he does well then Hibs do well, but he can't be above questioning when we don't meet some minimum targets. He got off very lightly when we lost to Queen of the South in the league cup, but he can't escape criticism for missing top 6 - especially with the start to the season we had. We were top of the league in November and we've been on a steady decline ever since, with Pat seemingly unable to arrest the slide.

The honeymoon period is definitely over.

excelelnt post.

Does anybody know how many points we had when Pat took over and how many points we were off 6 place?

Stevie Reid
01-04-2013, 12:45 PM
excelelnt post.

Does anybody know how many points we had when Pat took over and how many points we were off 6 place?

After Pat's first game in charge (that actually finished), the league table looked like this: -



1
Rangers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/default.stm)
18
26
45


2
Celtic (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/default.stm)
18
22
41


3
Motherwell (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/motherwell/default.stm)
17
5
33


4
St Johnstone (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/st_johnstone/default.stm)
17
4
26


5
Hearts (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/heart_of_midlothian/default.stm)
18
2
22


6
Kilmarnock (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/k/kilmarnock/default.stm)
17
-2
22


7
Dundee Utd (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee_utd/default.stm)
18
-5
21


8
St Mirren (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/st_mirren/default.stm)
18
-6
21


9
Inverness CT (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/i/inverness_ct/default.stm)
18
-12
15


10
Aberdeen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aberdeen/default.stm)
17
-6
14


11
Hibernian (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/hibernian/default.stm)
17
-12
14


12
Dunfermline (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dunfermline_athletic/default.stm)
17
-16
14

Weir7
01-04-2013, 01:19 PM
After Pat's first game in charge (that actually finished), the league table looked like this: -



1
Rangers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/default.stm)
18
26
45


2
Celtic (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/default.stm)
18
22
41


3
Motherwell (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/motherwell/default.stm)
17
5
33


4
St Johnstone (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/st_johnstone/default.stm)
17
4
26


5
Hearts (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/heart_of_midlothian/default.stm)
18
2
22


6
Kilmarnock (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/k/kilmarnock/default.stm)
17
-2
22


7
Dundee Utd (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee_utd/default.stm)
18
-5
21


8
St Mirren (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/st_mirren/default.stm)
18
-6
21


9
Inverness CT (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/i/inverness_ct/default.stm)
18
-12
15


10
Aberdeen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aberdeen/default.stm)
17
-6
14


11
Hibernian (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/hibernian/default.stm)
17
-12
14


12
Dunfermline (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dunfermline_athletic/default.stm)
17
-16
14



Cheers and what was the table like at the split last season. Trying to see how far off he was from making the split when he started to when table split

Stevie Reid
01-04-2013, 01:39 PM
Cheers and what was the table like at the split last season. Trying to see how far off he was from making the split when he started to when table split

The BBC Sport website isn't playing ball, but this is the league table after our 32nd game of the season - we drew our last game before the split 1-1 with Motherwell: -



1
Celtic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic)
32
46
78


2
Rangers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers)
32
38
60


3
Motherwell (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/motherwell)
32
5
54


4
Dundee Utd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dundee-united)
32
14
49


5
St Johnstone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-johnstone)
32
6
49


6
Hearts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/heart-of-midlothian)
32
8
45


7
Kilmarnock (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/kilmarnock)
32
-12
37


8
St Mirren (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-mirren)
32
-12
35


9
Aberdeen (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/aberdeen)
32
-8
33


10
Inverness CT (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/inverness-caledonian-thistle)
32
-18
31


11
Hibernian (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/hibernian)
32
-28
26


12
Dunfermline (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dunfermline-athletic)
32
-39
20

HUTCHYHIBBY
01-04-2013, 02:30 PM
There's nae point trying to compare this seasons league table (including Rangers) with this seasons (including Dundee), just use your eyes, theres all the information you need!

Weir7
01-04-2013, 02:32 PM
The BBC Sport website isn't playing ball, but this is the league table after our 32nd game of the season - we drew our last game before the split 1-1 with Motherwell: -



1
Celtic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic)
32
46
78


2
Rangers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers)
32
38
60


3
Motherwell (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/motherwell)
32
5
54


4
Dundee Utd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dundee-united)
32
14
49


5
St Johnstone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-johnstone)
32
6
49


6
Hearts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/heart-of-midlothian)
32
8
45


7
Kilmarnock (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/kilmarnock)
32
-12
37


8
St Mirren (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-mirren)
32
-12
35


9
Aberdeen (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/aberdeen)
32
-8
33


10
Inverness CT (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/inverness-caledonian-thistle)
32
-18
31


11
Hibernian (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/hibernian)
32
-28
26


12
Dunfermline (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dunfermline-athletic)
32
-39
20


8 points of 6th place when Pat joined. 19 points when spli took place. Not good.

Stevie Reid
01-04-2013, 02:44 PM
8 points of 6th place when Pat joined. 19 points when spli took place. Not good.

Inverness were 7 points off 6th when Pat joined, 14 off 6th at the split, finished in 10th - look at them now.

hibiedude
01-04-2013, 02:45 PM
Why is it that fans who question Fenlons ability as a manager should consider their mental capacity....never understood the thinking behind the people that post that nonsense......it's nothing more than fans expressing an opinion...you loyalty badge holders need to take a step back...

HFC 0-7
01-04-2013, 03:10 PM
Inverness were 7 points off 6th when Pat joined, 14 off 6th at the split, finished in 10th - look at them now.

Inverness in the summer window 11 out and 10 in. Hibs had 15 out (3 of them out on loan) and 10 in ( 2 were loan extensions or loans made permanent).

Inverness in the winter window 1 out and 3 in. Hibs had 3 loans extended and 2 in with 5 out (3 of them were people put out on loan).

So taking out loan extensions or loans made permanent in the signings in, between the 2 windows, Inverness had 12 out and 13 in. Hibs had 20 out (6 were put out on loan) and 10 in with another 5 loans extended or made permanent.

Both managers had a lot of rebuilding to do it seems. What it also shows is that we are now in a position where a lot of our transfer activity is spent holding on to loans.

So Inverness finished 10th had a big rebuilding job to do and out now doing well. We finished 11th had a rebuilding job to do and are now doing . . . . . Meh.

Doing well after rebuilding looks possible to do but I think we will always find it difficult if we keep having to work on keeping loans every window.

Stevie Reid
01-04-2013, 03:20 PM
Inverness in the summer window 11 out and 10 in. Hibs had 15 out (3 of them out on loan) and 10 in ( 2 were loan extensions or loans made permanent).

Inverness in the winter window 1 out and 3 in. Hibs had 3 loans extended and 2 in with 5 out (3 of them were people put out on loan).

So taking out loan extensions or loans made permanent in the signings in, between the 2 windows, Inverness had 12 out and 13 in. Hibs had 20 out (6 were put out on loan) and 10 in with another 5 loans extended or made permanent.

Both managers had a lot of rebuilding to do it seems. What it also shows is that we are now in a position where a lot of our transfer activity is spent holding on to loans.

So Inverness finished 10th had a big rebuilding job to do and out now doing well. We finished 11th had a rebuilding job to do and are now doing . . . . . Meh.

Doing well after rebuilding looks possible to do but I think we will always find it difficult if we keep having to work on keeping loans every window.

As I mentioned in another thread, whilst it clearly hasn't taken Butcher 4 years to build a team, he has built an ethos at the club and instilled a real belief in his players - which is coming to fruition now. He also obviously has great contacts to have added the quality unknowns that he has to his squad.

Of course there are no guarantees, but we took 7 of our 33 points from ICT last season, and there was absolutely no indication that they would develop into what they have become this season (they have actually only won two more games than us, but we have sadly lost twice as many games as them) - we already have more points than they finished with last season, so a good summer transfer window could see us improve further. Liam Craig is a good start, and I don't believe that Scott Robertson has become a bad player in a matter of months.

I think Pat should get the summer transfer window, and I expect us to be in the top 6 all next season, pushing for 2nd place.

HFC 0-7
01-04-2013, 03:38 PM
As I mentioned in another thread, whilst it clearly hasn't taken Butcher 4 years to build a team, he has built an ethos at the club and instilled a real belief in his players - which is coming to fruition now. He also obviously has great contacts to have added the quality unknowns that he has to his squad.

Of course there are no guarantees, but we took 7 of our 33 points from ICT last season, and there was absolutely no indication that they would develop into what they have become this season (they have actually only won two more games than us, but we have sadly lost twice as many games as them) - we already have more points than they finished with last season, so a good summer transfer window could see us improve further. Liam Craig is a good start, and I don't believe that Scott Robertson has become a bad player in a matter of months.

I think Pat should get the summer transfer window, and I expect us to be in the top 6 all next season, pushing for 2nd place.

Not sure i buy in to the club ethos thing taking 4 years, he has brought in a lot of players, he would have needed to instil that ethos straight away. IMO, he has Inverness playing as a team, hibs don't seem like a team to me, no one looks like they understand what they are meant to be doing. We hump the ball to our best player and hope he can make something from nothing. Take throw ins for example, what don't we know what to do? We have a player, ball in hand looking around shouting for someone to make a move.

I admire your optimism for next season but I fear we could be in the same situation. There is a good chance we could lose 3 of our best players at a time we need to be adding to the squad not replacing. We have zero creativity in the squad, Fenlon should have addressed this by now and he hasn't. If it takes 3 transfer windows and he still can't address something it will be very slow progress. I would asses his position at the end of the season.

Stevie Reid
01-04-2013, 03:48 PM
Not sure i buy in to the club ethos thing taking 4 years, he has brought in a lot of players, he would have needed to instil that ethos straight away. IMO, he has Inverness playing as a team, hibs don't seem like a team to me, no one looks like they understand what they are meant to be doing. We hump the ball to our best player and hope he can make something from nothing. Take throw ins for example, what don't we know what to do? We have a player, ball in hand looking around shouting for someone to make a move.

I admire your optimism for next season but I fear we could be in the same situation. There is a good chance we could lose 3 of our best players at a time we need to be adding to the squad not replacing. We have zero creativity in the squad, Fenlon should have addressed this by now and he hasn't. If it takes 3 transfer windows and he still can't address something it will be very slow progress. I would asses his position at the end of the season.

I'm only stating what is possible, from a lower base than we will be at at the end of this season. Whatever he has done, Butcher has put his stamp on that club - I don't believe, for example, that had he just walked into that job in the summer that he would have enjoyed that same success - and as much as he has changed a lot of personnel, there will still be some who have been there for a while.

Regardless, they have done incredibly well to lose guys like Rooney and Hayes for nothing and bring in the quality that they have. It shows what is possible, and if Pat can't do similar in the summer, then he will deserve to go. He had a big job on his hands though, and it is possible that this is just a reasonable first stage.

I agree about the style of football too often being very poor now, though even teams like Killie who play an open passing style are capable of being awful - and if we gave away goals like they did in that SC game people would want Pat strung up. However, we do need to find a way of playing the kind of football that we did earlier in the season on a regular basis as, Killie 4-2 and Dundee Utd 2-2 aside, the good football is but a distant memory.

Beefster
01-04-2013, 03:51 PM
8 points of 6th place when Pat joined. 19 points when spli took place. Not good.

That league table is after Fenlon's first game. When he took over we were 6 points off 6th (if you don't include the St Johnstone game the day after he was appointed).

HFC 0-7
01-04-2013, 03:56 PM
I'm only stating what is possible, from a lower base than we will be at at the end of this season. Whatever he has done, Butcher has put his stamp on that club - I don't believe, for example, that had he just walked into that job in the summer that he would have enjoyed that same success - and as much as he has changed a lot of personnel, there will still be some who have been there for a while.

Regardless, they have done incredibly well to lose guys like Rooney and Hayes for nothing and bring in the quality that they have. It shows what is possible, and if Pat can't do similar in the summer, then he will deserve to go. He had a big job on his hands though, and it is possible that this is just a reasonable first stage.

I agree about the style of football too often being very poor now, though even teams like Killie who play an open passing style are capable of being awful - and if we gave away goals like they did in that SC game people would want Pat strung up. However, we do need to find a way of playing the kind of football that we did earlier in the season on a regular basis as, Killie 4-2 and Dundee Utd 2-2 aside, the good football is but a distant memory.

This what I am saying, I don't think that we can just let Fenlon off because he has had a difficult job, other managers have proven rebuilding can happen quickly. The way we play is a big issue as it seems Fenlon has brought players in to fit that style, not play that style because that's the players we have. He has overloaded us with defensive midfielders that don't normally get ahead of the ball, we will continue to play the way we do until we change the way players play (unlikely) or bring in players who can play a different way. Harris is a start.

Stevie Reid
01-04-2013, 03:59 PM
This what I am saying, I don't think that we can just let Fenlon off because he has had a difficult job, other managers have proven rebuilding can happen quickly. The way we play is a big issue as it seems Fenlon has brought players in to fit that style, not play that style because that's the players we have. He has overloaded us with defensive midfielders that don't normally get ahead of the ball, we will continue to play the way we do until we change the way players play (unlikely) or bring in players who can play a different way. Harris is a start.

I've covered this in other threads but I think other managers who have done well have had a better starting point than PF had last year - Calderwood was the worst manager we ever had.

Anyway, no point going over old ground, and I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind (and the future performance of the team is the only thing that will change mine) - I'm simply stating why I am happy for him to be given another transfer window.

Dalkeith Hibee
01-04-2013, 04:00 PM
He should have been emptied after the cup final embaressment

hibsbollah
01-04-2013, 04:01 PM
I've covered this in other threads but I think other managers who have done well have had a better starting point than PF had last year - Calderwood was the worst manager we ever had.

Anyway, no point going over old ground, and I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind - I'm simply stating why I am happy for him to be given another transfer window.

Judging by the poll on the other thread you're firmly in the majority. Only 4% wanted him sacked immediately last time i looked...

Lucius Apuleius
01-04-2013, 04:06 PM
He should have been emptied after the cup final embaressment


Thank God Turnbull never got emptied after a bigger (in my opinion) embarassment in th 71/72 Cup final

Ray_
01-04-2013, 05:05 PM
Thank God Turnbull never got emptied after a bigger (in my opinion) embarassment in th 71/72 Cup final


Turnbull's team got hammered by what [IMHO] was the best Celtic team ever.

In getting to the final we beat the league cup holders away, a very good Airdrie side, who was cheated out of a Texaco Cup win that season, after, in the final, English champions elect, Derby County, survived a stick on penalty claim, after Colin Boulton, Derby's keeper, took the legs away from Drew Jarvie. We also beat a strong Aberdeen side, who had won the cup two years earlier and in the semi, took care of the Rangers team that humbled Bayern Munich at the same stage, in the Cup Winners Cup.

All in all, the 1972 hammering was a hiccup, where as 2012 was a disaster waiting to happen. Not the slightest comparison can be made between the teams or managers.

Treadstone
01-04-2013, 06:09 PM
Had a bit of time on my hands and someone mentioned on a thread about how after the year our form always goes to pieces. Started from 91-92 as from memory I thought we barely won a game. Turns out they were nowhere near the worst!

Table works as follows : 1st half= first part of season with the games played and points and then points per game. Then the season totals for these 3 categories. Then a cut off date and PPG for the remaining games that season and then a difference in PPG between the first half and after the cut-off.

3 highest (best) are shaded blue and worst are yellow.

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/156560_10151831979691562_1970877655_n.jpg

cad
01-04-2013, 06:22 PM
If Pat gets us past Falkirk he should get another transfer window ,if he loses Im afraid he should go.

JimBHibees
01-04-2013, 06:25 PM
It's not really overnight now, though, is it? Fenlon has been in charge at Hibs since 25th November 2011. We're now a few minutes into 1st April 2013.

It's nowhere near overnight. For me, we should now be seeing a team playing with a coherent and recognisable style. Players attacking with pace and purpose with a clear sense of what they're doing. And we should be consistently organised and robust in defence. It shouldn't take 14 or 15 months to get a team playing the way you want it to, which to me indicates that we're playing more or less how Fenlon wants us to, and that's a huge concern because it's pish, boring, negative football.

Mowbray had us playing good football a pre-season after taking over from Bobby f*****g Williamson. He had no money to spend and took a team of kids and turned them into cracking players. But crucially for the point I'm making, he had a style of football that was recognisable and implimented within no more than a couple of months at the club.

Ian Murray has got Dumbarton playing good football and he's been there no time at all, and that's with working with the players part-time!! There's only so long that you can use the excuse that we were pish under CC before you have to look at how successful Pat's been.

He can't complain about resources, because he's had more than most teams. He's got better facilities than most with which to work with his players. He gets a very supportive and healthy crowd, bigger than most other SPL sides coming to watch his team. We haven't been on the players' backs like we were under Yogi and CC. Fenlon can have very few excuses or complaints.

I'm not calling for a sacking, I desperately want Pat to do well because I think there's something there, and if he does well then Hibs do well, but he can't be above questioning when we don't meet some minimum targets. He got off very lightly when we lost to Queen of the South in the league cup, but he can't escape criticism for missing top 6 - especially with the start to the season we had. We were top of the league in November and we've been on a steady decline ever since, with Pat seemingly unable to arrest the slide.

The honeymoon period is definitely over.

Completely agree, this is where I am at the moment. Some of the stuff this season has been good some has been downright woeful and I include the last 2 derbies in that. We have to me a reasonably strong squad however there seems to be a constant switching of players especially in midfield. I like PF however we need to be seeing more than what was witnessed on Saturday which was a massive game for us and we didnt really dominate much of it at all. Poor defending in the last two games have killed us. It is a long term situation and he needs time however lets get the ball down and pass the thing when its on and look sharper around the pitch.

lord bunberry
01-04-2013, 06:25 PM
Hope it's no a personal dig mate as we are season ticket holders despite living 450 miles away that get up as much as we can to the games.

Add on top of that Merchandise bought it works out around £1000 p/a to follow the Hibs at home. Factor in away games on top (travel on top another £1500 a season for the 2 of us)
How much do you put into Hibs mate ?

I spend double that if you take into account the amount of money I have to spend on alcohol drowning my sorrows after most games

blackpoolhibs
01-04-2013, 06:46 PM
Hope it's no a personal dig mate as we are season ticket holders despite living 450 miles away that get up as much as we can to the games.

Add on top of that Merchandise bought it works out around £1000 p/a to follow the Hibs at home. Factor in away games on top (travel on top another £1500 a season for the 2 of us)
How much do you put into Hibs mate ?

Nobody forced you to live 450 miles away from easter road, the cost of what you pay to travel and watch Hibs gives the club nothing but your support, the same as someone who lives on Albion road. Good effort by the way, its a long journey home when we have been pumped. :top marks

lord bunberry
01-04-2013, 07:49 PM
Nobody forced you to live 450 miles away from easter road, the cost of what you pay to travel and watch Hibs gives the club nothing but your support, the same as someone who lives on Albion road. Good effort by the way, its a long journey home when we have been pumped. :top marks

My mate is forced to live 450 miles away, he's in wormwood scrubs

blackpoolhibs
01-04-2013, 08:04 PM
My mate is forced to live 450 miles away, he's in wormwood scrubs

Has he bought a season ticket for Easter Road? :greengrin

lord bunberry
01-04-2013, 08:31 PM
Has he bought a season ticket for Easter Road? :greengrin

No he got knocked back for the payment plan

Scottie
01-04-2013, 08:58 PM
Nobody forced you to live 450 miles away from easter road, the cost of what you pay to travel and watch Hibs gives the club nothing but your support, the same as someone who lives on Albion road. Good effort by the way, its a long journey home when we have been pumped. :top marks

I took the bait wi Cleanyman last night quoting my post for some reason hook line and sinker. :doh:
If you read the posts above you'll see why.You learn by your mistakes though.Time to stop biting.
Believe me would rather live Albion Rd that doon here but needs must.

blackpoolhibs
01-04-2013, 09:09 PM
No he got knocked back for the payment plan

:faf:

Nailrod
02-04-2013, 03:40 AM
Of the 6 managers that we've had in the last 10 years, only one has left the place in a better state than when they arrived. Kind of tells you a story... The story it tells me is that this is a pointless debate.

When a club of Hibs stature spends years on end failing to compete with giants of European football like Ross County, ICT, and St Johnstone - and now in the worst SPL that there has ever been, with no Rangers and including the worst Hearts team in twenty years - there is something fundamentally wrong at the club.

It wasn't Mixu, it wasn't Yogi, it wasn't even Calderwood, it's not Fenlon, and it won't be whoever gets the poisoned chalice once he gets the boot.

But let's carry on blinding ourselves to the truth.

Lucius Apuleius
02-04-2013, 05:09 AM
Turnbull's team got hammered by what [IMHO] was the best Celtic team ever.

In getting to the final we beat the league cup holders away, a very good Airdrie side, who was cheated out of a Texaco Cup win that season, after, in the final, English champions elect, Derby County, survived a stick on penalty claim, after Colin Boulton, Derby's keeper, took the legs away from Drew Jarvie. We also beat a strong Aberdeen side, who had won the cup two years earlier and in the semi, took care of the Rangers team that humbled Bayern Munich at the same stage, in the Cup Winners Cup.

All in all, the 1972 hammering was a hiccup, where as 2012 was a disaster waiting to happen. Not the slightest comparison can be made between the teams or managers.

I pretty much agree with most of what you are saying to be honest, except the last bit. We keep getting told that the game is results driven. I personally feel that the 6-1 defeat by Celtic, even the 6-3 defeat were a bigger embarassment than the hertz one, although why anybody gets embarassed at a football score I have no idea. I think comparisons can be made, when did Turnbull take over? '71 if I remember correctly.

Aldo
02-04-2013, 07:26 AM
[QUOTE="Lucius Apuleius;3553075"]

I pretty much agree with most of what you are saying to be honest, except the last bit. We keep getting told that the game is results driven. I personally feel that the 6-1 defeat by Celtic, even the 6-3 defeat were a bigger embarassment than the hertz one, although why anybody gets embarassed at a football score I have no idea. I think comparisons can be made, when did Turnbull take over? '71 if I remember correctly.

Aldo
02-04-2013, 07:28 AM
If it hasn't been for that Smellic team Turnbulls team would/could of become legends.... The likes of Stanton, blackley, brownlie, Duncan, Edwards, shades etc. what a team.

Speedway
02-04-2013, 09:48 AM
The story it tells me is that this is a pointless debate.

When a club of Hibs stature spends years on end failing to compete with giants of European football like Ross County, ICT, and St Johnstone - and now in the worst SPL that there has ever been, with no Rangers and including the worst Hearts team in twenty years - there is something fundamentally wrong at the club.

It wasn't Mixu, it wasn't Yogi, it wasn't even Calderwood, it's not Fenlon, and it won't be whoever gets the poisoned chalice once he gets the boot.

But let's carry on blinding ourselves to the truth.

Whose truth?

BEEJ
02-04-2013, 11:38 AM
Had a bit of time on my hands and someone mentioned on a thread about how after the year our form always goes to pieces. Started from 91-92 as from memory I thought we barely won a game. Turns out they were nowhere near the worst!

Table works as follows : 1st half= first part of season with the games played and points and then points per game. Then the season totals for these 3 categories. Then a cut off date and PPG for the remaining games that season and then a difference in PPG between the first half and after the cut-off.

3 highest (best) are shaded blue and worst are yellow.

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/156560_10151831979691562_1970877655_n.jpg
Very interesting, if disturbing, analysis. :thumbsup:

Basically, across each of the 20 seasons prior to this one, during the period from the start of January to the end of the league in May, we have never exceeded an average of 1.41 points per match!! Less than half the points available!! Over 20 seasons - and this season certainly won't break that pattern.

Not a stat that we want to be consistent with going forward. What happens to Hibs each year when they cross the rubicond of the New Year? :confused:

Speedway
02-04-2013, 01:00 PM
Very interesting, if disturbing, analysis. :thumbsup:

Basically, across each of the 20 seasons prior to this one, during the period from the start of January to the end of the league in May, we have never exceeded an average of 1.41 points per match!! Less than half the points available!! Over 20 seasons - and this season certainly won't break that pattern.

Not a stat that we want to be consistent with going forward. What happens to Hibs each year when they cross the rubicond of the New Year? :confused:

Some convenient and easy but not necessarily correct answers could include:

1. Under investment in squad leading to sub standard team fielded when injuries and suspensions hit or even before injuries and suspensions hit.

2. Team have nothing to play for in the league past January.

3. No plan B from managers leading to teams having sussed us out as the season progresses.

4. Best players sold in January window.

5. Contract extension talks open with disappointing offers made in the eyes of 'star players'

6. Can't think of a 6th

7. Crowd starts to get on team's back increasingly as they fail to halt a slide.

8. New manager cannot arrest a slide.

9. Players start planning their holidays

10. Players get their heads turned by offers that they can take in the summer.

Nailrod
03-04-2013, 01:29 AM
Some convenient and easy but not necessarily correct answers could include:
From...
1. Under investment in squad leading to sub standard team fielded when injuries and suspensions hit or even before injuries and suspensions hit...
to...
10. Players get their heads turned by offers that they can take in the summer.And all of these factors apply exclusively to Hibs. Odd that.

Anyway, the fact remains that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the club. No truths we need to stop blinding ourselves to. Perish the thought.

Braids Hibby
03-04-2013, 09:17 AM
Saturday is a huge game for us. When Pat leads us to our second final in twelve months what will the doom merchants say ?

blackpoolhibs
03-04-2013, 09:20 AM
Saturday is a huge game for us. When Pat leads us to our second final in twelve months what will the doom merchants say ?

Saturdays game is an irrelevance in my opinion, in fact i'd rest quite a few of them to give us the best chance possible for the week after.

Braids Hibby
03-04-2013, 09:22 AM
Saturdays game is an irrelevance in my opinion, in fact i'd rest quite a few of them to give us the best chance possible for the week after.
Fair point but best to have our strongest line up playing. We have a good record their too.

blackpoolhibs
03-04-2013, 09:24 AM
Fair point but best to have our strongest line up playing. We have a good record their too.

Why risk injuries if the game means nothing in the grand scheme of things?:confused: