Fenlon v Williamson

[sesoim]

I was never a fan of Bobby Williamson, and was happy when he was pushed out and we subsequently appointed a good manager in Mowbray, who was able to get the best out of young players, spot a few bargains, and get us to where we should be in the league. The interesting thing now is, lots of fans are still backing Fenlon, while Williamson was almost universally hated. And yet, their records are very similar.

Fenlon and Williamson both took over when the club was in a precarious position (we were 9th when Fenlon took over, 11th when Williamson came). Under both managers we have made slow progress, failed to make the top six, both have us playing fairly negative systems, and both managers have gotten us to finals where we have then been humiliated. Yet Williamson was hated, and Fenlon has a hardcore of fans who think he can do no wrong. Why do people think this is? I can't help thinking that if Fenlon had been a dislikeable ex-Ger from Glasgow, as opposed to a likeable Irishman, he wouldn't have gotten the same support. What do other fans think?

[eastterrace]

I was never a fan of Bobby Williamson, and was happy when he was pushed out and we subsequently appointed a good manager in Mowbray, who was able to get the best out of young players, spot a few bargains, and get us to where we should be in the league. The interesting thing now is, lots of fans are still backing Fenlon, while Williamson was almost universally hated. And yet, their records are very similar.

Fenlon and Williamson both took over when the club was in a precarious position (we were 9th when Fenlon took over, 11th when Williamson came). Under both managers we have made slow progress, failed to make the top six, both have us playing fairly negative systems, and both managers have gotten us to finals where we have then been humiliated. Yet Williamson was hated, and Fenlon has a hardcore of fans who think he can do no wrong. Why do people think this is? I can't help thinking that if Fenlon had been a dislikeable ex-Ger from Glasgow, as opposed to a likeable Irishman, he wouldn't have gotten the same support. What do other fans think?

yes your proably right, if he han been a ex gers he would be getting pelters, but its maybe something to do with we cant keep sacking managers so we are going to have to go the long haul with this one.

[Andy74]

For me there's more to it than just results.

He is trying to change the whole club around. Which was needed.

I can also see what he is trying to do and feel that we aren't too far away if we can get a team built over the medium term.

He has also been a winner most of his career.

I don't see any comparison to Bobby or CC bit that's just me.

[Weir7]

I was never a fan of Bobby Williamson, and was happy when he was pushed out and we subsequently appointed a good manager in Mowbray, who was able to get the best out of young players, spot a few bargains, and get us to where we should be in the league. The interesting thing now is, lots of fans are still backing Fenlon, while Williamson was almost universally hated. And yet, their records are very similar.

Fenlon and Williamson both took over when the club was in a precarious position (we were 9th when Fenlon took over, 11th when Williamson came). Under both managers we have made slow progress, failed to make the top six, both have us playing fairly negative systems, and both managers have gotten us to finals where we have then been humiliated. Yet Williamson was hated, and Fenlon has a hardcore of fans who think he can do no wrong. Why do people think this is? I can't help thinking that if Fenlon had been a dislikeable ex-Ger from Glasgow, as opposed to a likeable Irishman, he wouldn't have gotten the same support. What do other fans think?

I like fenlon's attitude. He wants to do well but for me out is depth. Majority of games we have won have been wonder strikes.

At Easter Rd we don't dominate games or have patches in games where we put teams to the sord.

Tactics are negative. Long balls to isolated forwards.

Is squad he has built is poor and unbalanced. His use of young players is very disappointing. I've seen boozy many times and should have been in the squad months ago.

For me I want a new manager.

[hibee_girl]

For me there's more to it than just results.

He is trying to change the whole club around. Which was needed.

I can also see what he is trying to do and feel that we aren't too far away if we can get a team built over the medium term.

He has also been a winner most of his career.

I don't see any comparison to Bobby or CC bit that's just me.

:agree:

We all said when he came here that he would need more than one season. He's got a big job on his hands but imo he's the right man for it.

[neil7908]

I still think Pat needs more time but I'm becoming increasingly concerned about his leadership. Short of a disasterous end to the season he should be safe from the sack but there's no disputing our record in the last few months is one of a team sliding dangerously.

In terms of comparisons with Williamson I think that following McLeish and of course Sauzee would be a tough job for anyone, let alone a man with as much personality as a rock. Fenlon has followed a very unpopular manager and also comes off the back of a series of poor managers and even poorer Hibs teams so the fans expectation levels are lower.

We need a serious rebuild in the summer and if we lose Leigh then we'll need to sign at least 3 forwards (with Doyle and Kuqi also going) plus at least 2 attack minded midfielders or winners . That's a big job and getting them to gel will be even tougher. The last few games of the season, particularly the cup games(s) and our transfer dealing will be Pats big shot at shaping the team. After that he'll find himself low on support if results stay the same.

[Aldo]

I like fenlon's attitude. He wants to do well but for me out is depth. Majority of games we have won have been wonder strikes.

At Easter Rd we don't dominate games or have patches in games where we put teams to the sord.

Tactics are negative. Long balls to isolated forwards.

Is squad he has built is poor and unbalanced. His use of young players is very disappointing. I've seen boozy many times and should have been in the squad months ago.

For me I want a new manager.

WON that is the name of the game..... Winning games. Which we have not been doing.

Wether its a wonder strike or a tap in a goal is a goal.

Why is there a bad vibe going about this place and so much hatred towards the players/manager and the club??

[Weir7]

For me there's more to it than just results.

He is trying to change the whole club around. Which was needed.

I can also see what he is trying to do and feel that we aren't too far away if we can get a team built over the medium term.

He has also been a winner most of his career.

I don't see any comparison to Bobby or CC bit that's just me.

Please can you share what he is trying to do? Also, why did he sign so many midfielders that are so similar?

[lucky]

Blobby was anti football. PF gets the benefit of the doubt for the time being because of 2 cup runs and the dire mess CC left us in

[Alfred E Newman]

I still think Pat needs more time but I'm becoming increasingly concerned about his leadership. Short of a disasterous end to the season he should be safe from the sack but there's no disputing our record in the last few months is one of a team sliding dangerously.

In terms of comparisons with Williamson I think that following McLeish and of course Sauzee would be a tough job for anyone, let alone a man with as much personality as a rock. Fenlon has followed a very unpopular manager and also comes off the back of a series of poor managers and even poorer Hibs teams so the fans expectation levels are lower.

We need a serious rebuild in the summer and if we lose Leigh then we'll need to sign at least 3 forwards (with Doyle and Kuqi also going) plus at least 2 attack minded midfielders or winners . That's a big job and getting them to gel will be even tougher. The last few games of the season, particularly the cup games(s) and our transfer dealing will be Pats big shot at shaping the team. After that he'll find himself low on support if results stay the same.
On todays performance and the game at Motherwell there is no guarantee that we will beat Falkirk. It's looks likely we will now have a trip to Tynecastle as well.Defeats in those games might make it difficult for him to survive which would be a pity because I like the guy.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Still a case of jury out for me. As I've said before I think Pat has tackled the culture which he seems to have done better than others before him in the main and got rid of the shirkers and folks either disrespectful or not good enough for the club.

I don't have the answers but think next year we need to push on you just think that with players like Leigh, Claros and McGivern our best chance to push on was with them without them well need to work even harder.

But I do think we need to be careful or getting into a cycle ala The Dons. Unfortunately Rod appeared to back the wrong horse to stand by CC but we need stability and progress on the park that stems from the manager and players that know their role, each other and strive to develop. So Pat to next year for me

[Andy74]

On todays performance and the game at Motherwell there is no guarantee that we will beat Falkirk. It's looks likely we will now have a trip to Tynecastle as well.Defeats in those games might make it difficult for him to survive which would be a pity because I like the guy.

I'd say he is miles away from being in danger of being sacked.

[Aldo]

On todays performance and the game at Motherwell there is no guarantee that we will beat Falkirk. It's looks likely we will now have a trip to Tynecastle as well.Defeats in those games might make it difficult for him to survive which would be a pity because I like the guy.

MB... There is no guarantee in football ENDOF but if we play like we played against Dundee Utd at Tannadice and against Well and Smellic then we should be ok.

Most important thing is we turn up, roll up our sleeves, get stuck in and fight for everything.

FWIW I have faith in Fenlon and live my Club.

[Alfred E Newman]

I hope so Andy.

[.Sean.]

He's likeable but just far too negative for me. Boring to watch, no plan B and he's tactically naive. He talks a good game but for me the bottom 6 again is a failure and I'm losing patience.

[Alfred E Newman]

I would agree he needs another summer to try and improve the side further but one worry for me was hearing him say he was happy with today's performance.

[Vault Boy]

For me there's more to it than just results.

He is trying to change the whole club around. Which was needed.

I can also see what he is trying to do and feel that we aren't too far away if we can get a team built over the medium term.

He has also been a winner most of his career.

I don't see any comparison to Bobby or CC bit that's just me.

:agree:

[Badge]

I'd say he is miles away from being in danger of being sacked.

Don't know how you can say that. Football is a results based business and at the moment we are simply not getting the results we should be. Before the game he said this was our most important game of the season. Do you think the 3 sitting midfielders we started with suggested that was a formation to go and win the game? Do you think the players were up for it throughout the 90 minutes? We were outplayed by a team who were better organised. had strength, height and pace, who all worked for each other, whose movement off the ball was far superior than ours, whose desire was greater than ours and who played as if they needed and wanted to win the game. They were first to everything. IMO Kevin Thomson and young Harris were the only 2 outfield players to get pass marks. Williams wasn't at fault for either of their goals and made a couple of decent blocks when they were through in the first half. The quality of football we are watching is poor and for me the Manager's tactics leave a lot to be desired. I would suggest that if we lose to Falkirk we may well have to look for a new management team.

[hibbymick]

Just as a matter of interest as I keep hearing this phrase more and more these days....but who was the last manager we had who had a " plan B " ?

[lapsedhibee]

Just as a matter of interest as I keep hearing this phrase more and more these days....but who was the last manager we had who had a " plan B " ?

Collins

[blackpoolhibs]

There's a few wanting Fenlon out, no plan B, negative tactics and eye bleeding football are the reasons given among others.

It looks like another rebuild on the cards next season, is Fenlon the man to do it?

[blackpoolhibs]

Collins

:agree: And he had a plan c, jump ship.

[Beefster]

There's a few wanting Fenlon out, no plan B, negative tactics and eye bleeding football are the reasons given among others.

It looks like another rebuild on the cards next season, is Fenlon the man to do it?

None of the reasons given are particularly untrue either. It's absolutely brutal. You know when Fenlon's being spoken in the same sentences as the likes of Williamson and Calderwood, it's not going well.

[Scouse Hibee]

Fenlon out Thomson in

[blackpoolhibs]

None of the reasons given are particularly untrue either. It's absolutely brutal. You know when Fenlon's being spoken in the same sentences as the likes of Williamson and Calderwood, it's not going well.

:agree: The problem as i see it is, how many managers do we sack without giving them any real time at the job? Is 2 seasons enough, yes some get it right straight away, but not all do?

[Hiber-nation]

There's a few wanting Fenlon out, no plan B, negative tactics and eye bleeding football are the reasons given among others.

It looks like another rebuild on the cards next season, is Fenlon the man to do it?

Wait till after the semi.

[Forza Fred]

Irrespctive of results between now and the end of the season Mr Fenlon will still be in charge at the start of next season..unless Vlad replaces Rod that is...
:greengrin

The firmness or shoogliness of his dressing room peg, will I suggest, be judged in the earlyish part of next season.

If we're hovering around the bottom four,then I think we'll have a new manager by the end of November 2013.


However, hopefully he will find the magic formula way before then and go on to a long and illustrius career at Easter Raod.

Bút, we cant go on forever being this bad and expect nothing to be done about it.

[blackpoolhibs]

Wait till after the semi.

I have nothing to wait for, i want him to stay even if we lose the semi?:confused:

[Hibercelona]

:agree: And he had a plan c, jump ship.

He didn't jump ship. He was hounded out by players who didn't want to earn their wages.

[The Voice Of Reason]

There's a few wanting Fenlon out, no plan B, negative tactics and eye bleeding football are the reasons given among others.

It looks like another rebuild on the cards next season, is Fenlon the man to do it?

As posted on another thread, bottom 6 is a failure - can anyone disagree with that? The only reason we are not in another relegation dogfight is Dundee FC (courtesy of rangers demise).

When is the last time we played well? Killie away probably. Another failure of a season summed up by the banner headline signing of Kuqi !

Of course IF we win the cup all will be forgiven, but on current form it wouldn't be a major shock if Falkirk beat us in the semi.

Dreadful - and no, I don't think Fenton is the man for the job (it Pains me to say). :boo hoo:

[jeffers]

I think next season will be make or break for him. I like the guy but have my doubts. The starting 11 today was pretty much his team but it is a team with little pace and too defensive minded. Did we really need Taiwo and Deegan alongside KT today ? Take Sparky out the team and we'd possibly be better off points wise than last season but probably similar position wise.

I'm nowhere close to the stage where I would consider sacking him, but if we fail to make the top six again next season then the question has to be asked.

[Mikey]

He didn't jump ship. He was hounded out by players who didn't want to earn their wages.

Absolute nonsense.

As usual.

[Hiber-nation]

I have nothing to wait for, i want him to stay even if we lose the semi?:confused:

Are you asking me something? Sorry, not sure what you mean.

I want him to stay as well, probably for the sole reason that we can't keep changing managers but I'm very concerned about the style of fitba and the results.

[cleanyman]

I like Paddy.

[Stringer]

None of the results have been clearly his fault. Players need a good hair dryer treatment.

Sir Alex in.:greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

He didn't jump ship. He was hounded out by players who didn't want to earn their wages.

:faf::faf: If you believe that you are more daft than i thought?

[The Voice Of Reason]

I have nothing to wait for, i want him to stay even if we lose the semi?:confused:

Other than the "stability" argument (which is valid) have you seen anything in Fenlon that justifies your faith in him?

I am worried that :-

1. We don't look fit or sharp - how are these players trained at east mains?
2. Fenlon doesn't seem to have an eye for a player (Kuqi, Kujabi, Deegan, Doyle)
3. Our tactics and style of football is grim
4. We have no pace in the team
5. We don't have a front partnership (imagine if Leigh gets injured?!?!)

The table does not lie and we are 8th in a dreadfully sub standard league well behind Motherwell, Ross co, ICT and the likes).

Simply not good enough and the buck stops with the manager (as Fenlon will know himself).

[jeffers]

Other than the "stability" argument (which is valid) have you seen anything in Fenlon that justifies your faith in him?

I am worried that :-

1. We don't look fit or sharp - how are these players trained at east mains?
2. Fenlon doesn't seem to have an eye for a player (Kuqi, Kujabi, Deegan, Doyle)
3. Our tactics and style of football is grim
4. We have no pace in the team
5. We don't have a front partnership (imagine if Leigh gets injured?!?!)

The table does not lie and we are 8th in a dreadfully sub standard league well behind Motherwell, Ross co, ICT and the likes).

Simply not good enough and the buck stops with the manager (as Fenlon will know himself).

I agree with pretty much all of that, but I do think most of his signings are decent (every manager gets some wrong) I'm just not convinced they were the players we really needed.

[3pm]

I'd say he is miles away from being in danger of being sacked.

I'd agree at 'boardroom level'.

However, in my opinion, he's made a total mess of the great position we were in. Dress it up any way you want.....it's his team. I was no Hughes fan but I'd like to see the reaction if he had made a mess of a top six finish the way Fenlon has.

[silverhibee]

I like Paddy.


I liked Mixu, but it's a results game and we aren't getting them, Mixu got top 6 finish and it wasn't good enough. :aok:

[scuttle]

:faf::faf: If you believe that you are more daft than i thought?

If you know the proper story please enlighten us then

[blackpoolhibs]

Other than the "stability" argument (which is valid) have you seen anything in Fenlon that justifies your faith in him?

I am worried that :-

1. We don't look fit or sharp - how are these players trained at east mains?
2. Fenlon doesn't seem to have an eye for a player (Kuqi, Kujabi, Deegan, Doyle)
3. Our tactics and style of football is grim
4. We have no pace in the team
5. We don't have a front partnership (imagine if Leigh gets injured?!?!)

The table does not lie and we are 8th in a dreadfully sub standard league well behind Motherwell, Ross co, ICT and the likes).

Simply not good enough and the buck stops with the manager (as Fenlon will know himself).

I understand what you are saying, but i did see enough early in the season to see real progress. I dont know why we have slumped, but we have and its not great AGAIN. Fenlon has been looking at players for next season, and he's been allowed to sign one on a pre contract.

He like others before him has done just enough in my opinion to get another chance next season, but i do realise the points you made have to be rectified.

[Beefster]

I'd agree at 'boardroom level'.

However, in my opinion, he's made a total mess of the great position we were in. Dress it up any way you want.....it's his team. I was no Hughes fan but I'd like to see the reaction if he had made a mess of a top six finish the way Fenlon has.

He's only safe whilst ST sales are going well or the Board aren't being put under any pressure. If that changes, his security will change.

[Hibercelona]

Absolute nonsense.

As usual.

Really?

I seem to recall players spitting the dummy out at Rods doorstep, because they weren't happy about JC's training methods and match tactics.

This was only weeks after winning our first piece of silverware in 15 years.

[alexhibs]

Managers come and go, ah like Pat but Hibs are the priority

[The Voice Of Reason]

I agree with pretty much all of that, but I do think most of his signings are decent (every manager gets some wrong) I'm just not convinced they were the players we really needed.

Surely for a signing to be classed as "decent" the player in question has to be a player that the team needs - no ?!?! :confused:

[cleanyman]

I liked Mixu, but it's a results game and we aren't getting them, Mixu got top 6 finish and it wasn't good enough. :aok:

I also liked Mixu, and was one of the rare people on here who wasn't demanding his sacking.

I'm also realistic, Hibs are a small club.

I merely follow for the banter and the occasional win.

[LeighLoyal]

Williamson's Hibs team wasn't easy to watch, but hey-ho, if you want entertainment go to the Omni Centre.

[Thecat23]

I like Pat and I can see what he's trying to do. Sadly it's a results business and recently we just haven't been playing well or get results. Granted we should be 4 points better off. I'm still sticking by him but it doesn't bother me that because we have sacked a few managers in the past doesn't mean Pat should be given years even if we aren't going forward. Hibs and only Hibs come first and I only want the beat for my club. I hope though he can build a team that's winning and at least entertaining because our football is far from that and won't be getting punters rushing for ST.

[jeffers]

Surely for a signing to be classed as "decent" the player in question has to be a player that the team needs - no ?!?! :confused:

What I should have said is they are decent players, but that doesn't mean they are players that the team needed - for example Deegan, Taiwo, Claros, Robertson are all decent (to varyng degrees) but it doesn't mean we should have signed them all.

[Andy74]

I understand what you are saying, but i did see enough early in the season to see real progress. I dont know why we have slumped, but we have and its not great AGAIN. Fenlon has been looking at players for next season, and he's been allowed to sign one on a pre contract.

He like others before him has done just enough in my opinion to get another chance next season, but i do realise the points you made have to be rectified.

I think early season showed the way he wants us playing. It was going well, we were playing good stuff, scoring good goals and we were fighting, caring and defending not too badly.

However, the way we play was great when our wide players were on form. The ones we have aren't good enough. That includes Done who I think was just the only option we could get in January.

What I think is that he has wide players in mind for the longer term and they will arrive in the summer. I think the right ones would transform how we play again.

We also need better cover at the back and a solid striker that Kuqi should have been.

What I want to believe is that Pat knows all this and it's a matter of him trying to get the right ones longer term. The summer is that chance for him to prove the next stage of where he wants to take us.

[Ozyhibby]

The usual defence of Fenlon on here is that we have made progress.
We were 9th when he took over and if Dundee Utd win on Monday we will be 9th. Can someone explain to me how this represents progress?

[Hiber-nation]

I also liked Mixu, and was one of the rare people on here who wasn't demanding his sacking.

I'm also realistic, Hibs are a small club.

I merely follow for the banter and the occasional win.

Well we might be small compared to some but as far as I'm concered we're "bigger" than all the clubs above us bar celtc. So not good enough.

[blackpoolhibs]

I think early season showed the way he wants us playing. It was going well, we were playing good stuff, scoring good goals and we were fighting, caring and defending not too badly.

However, the way we play was great when our wide players were on form. The ones we have aren't good enough. That includes Done who I think was just the only option we could get in January.

What I think is that he has wide players in mind for the longer term and they will arrive in the summer. I think the right ones would transform how we play again.

We also need better cover at the back and a solid striker that Kuqi should have been.

What I want to believe is that Pat knows all this and it's a matter of him trying to get the right ones longer term. The summer is that chance for him to prove the next stage of where he wants to take us.

I hope you are right, a cup final appearance would also help?

[alexhibs]

I also liked Mixu, and was one of the rare people on here who wasn't demanding his sacking.

I'm also realistic, Hibs are a small club.

I merely follow for the banter and the occasional win.

Aw is that right banter boy

[500miles]

There's a few wanting Fenlon out, no plan B, negative tactics and eye bleeding football are the reasons given among others.

It looks like another rebuild on the cards next season, is Fenlon the man to do it?

To be honest, it sounds like the same nonsense some folk were knocking out during Mixu's time. We were stupid to give him the push, and we would be stupid to give Pat the push too.

[Treadstone]

To be fair to PF, If officials done their job properly we would have been sitting nicely in the top six just needing most likely at most a point from today. The approach to the game would have been different.

He could mention that after todays defeat but doesn't as far as I know. Classy guy.

http://audioboo.fm/boos/1299382-pat-fenlon-talks-to-hibernian-tv-s-keith-reid-after-today-s-match-against-inverness-caley-at-easter-road (http://audioboo.fm/boos/1299382-pat-fenlon-talks-to-hibernian-tv-s-keith-reid-after-today-s-match-against-inverness-caley-at-easter-road)

[cleanyman]

Aw is that right banter boy

Aye.

[TornadoHibby]

There's a few wanting Fenlon out, no plan B, negative tactics and eye bleeding football are the reasons given among others.

It looks like another rebuild on the cards next season, is Fenlon the man to do it?

BH, post 18 (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?260567-Fenlon-v-Williamson&p=3550807&viewfull=1#post3550807)on this thread sums up my feelings on today's match and, don't forget, we've only won ONE SPL match in the last 11 INCLUDING TODAY!

For Hibs to improve, the club needs more ST holders and that will only happen if the team on the pitch is entertaining the fans and winning matches!

The current evidence doesn't suggest that is happening unless you can point out what I might be missing which is crucial to the debate??!!

[Hibs Class]

I would give Pat a 5 year contract, guarantee that he would not be sacked regardless of how much noise fickle fans made, and tell him he would be judged on performance in seasons 4&5.

[.Sean.]

Funny that the last two managers that got us top 6 finishes, Paatelainen and Hughes, were hounded out and received some downright disgusting abuse on here yet Fenlon's avoiding similar despite guiding Hibs to consecutive bottom 6 finishes.

[alexhibs]

Aye.

What defines a small club in your opinion?

[cleanyman]

What defines a small club in your opinion?

A club that finishes in the bottom 6 of the SPL regularly, which Hibernian do.

I've never understood why fans think we're a big club....lovely stadium...training facilities...but limited in fans and success.

This is part of a slow re-building job for me, it's disappointing to lose to St.Johnstone and ICT at home but they're simply just better than us.

[Billy Whizz]

Looks to be 3 bottom 6 finishes in a row!
Simply not good enough as a club, in my opinion

[Ryan91]

The usual defence of Fenlon on here is that we have made progress.
We were 9th when he took over and if Dundee Utd win on Monday we will be 9th. Can someone explain to me how this represents progress?

We were lucky to be 9th when Fenlon took over but we were also in free fall when he took over and there was serious work that needed to be done on the team, his job was to keep us up and he succeeded in that job. Progress will be determined by where we finish the season, if we aren't second bottom then we have progress, albeit a small amount and not as much progress as we should have had.

This season was a case of rebuilding and changing the mentality at the club, Fenlon has done that.

Whilst we may have had top 6 within our grasp, we have stumbled and it now looks like we'll be bottom 6 - although two extremely poor officiating decisions cost us 4 valuable points, and another poor decision in not awarding a penalty today probably cost us another point.

Some will argue that Fenlon has had plenty of time in which to get things sorted, I'd disagree - Last season was a write-off and in reality Fenlon's task only began in earnest last summer.

Get behind the team and get behind the manager, there's still plenty more work to be done and we're nothing like finished.

GGTTH

:pfgwa

[.Sean.]

We were lucky to be 9th when Fenlon took over but we were also in free fall when he took over and there was serious work that needed to be done on the team, his job was to keep us up and he succeeded in that job. Progress will be determined by where we finish the season, if we aren't second bottom then we have progress, albeit a small amount and not as much progress as we should have had.

This season was a case of rebuilding and changing the mentality at the club, Fenlon has done that.

Whilst we may have had top 6 within our grasp, we have stumbled and it now looks like we'll be bottom 6 - although two extremely poor officiating decisions cost us 4 valuable points, and another poor decision in not awarding a penalty today probably cost us another point.

Some will argue that Fenlon has had plenty of time in which to get things sorted, I'd disagree - Last season was a write-off and in reality Fenlon's task only began in earnest last summer.

Get behind the team and get behind the manager, there's still plenty more work to be done and we're nothing like finished.

GGTTH

:pfgwa

We keep hearing he's 'changed the mentality of the club' - Has he? :confused:



And as for refereeing decisions costing us a top 6 place, that's nonsense. These decisions even themselves out over the course of a season, it's dropping points at home to the likes of Dundee and St Johnstone that has caused Hibs to miss out on the top 6 and Fenlon carries the can for that IMO.

[Beefster]

I would give Pat a 5 year contract, guarantee that he would not be sacked regardless of how much noise fickle fans made, and tell him he would be judged on performance in seasons 4&5.

I reckon there might be a reason why you're not in charge of Hibs.


We were lucky to be 9th when Fenlon took over but we were also in free fall when he took over and there was serious work that needed to be done on the team, his job was to keep us up and he succeeded in that job. Progress will be determined by where we finish the season, if we aren't second bottom then we have progress, albeit a small amount and not as much progress as we should have had.

This season was a case of rebuilding and changing the mentality at the club, Fenlon has done that.

Whilst we may have had top 6 within our grasp, we have stumbled and it now looks like we'll be bottom 6 - although two extremely poor officiating decisions cost us 4 valuable points, and another poor decision in not awarding a penalty today probably cost us another point.

Some will argue that Fenlon has had plenty of time in which to get things sorted, I'd disagree - Last season was a write-off and in reality Fenlon's task only began in earnest last summer.

Get behind the team and get behind the manager, there's still plenty more work to be done and we're nothing like finished.

GGTTH

:pfgwa

It chafes my nipples something rotten when folk trot out this line. His job, when he took over, was to get us into the top six. There is no way that Hibs employed him when we were 9th, and only 3 points from the top six, after 15 games and told him "aye, just keep us up, that's all we want".

[theonlywayisup]

I have said this on a number of occasions (see my previous posts) but Fenlon's job can be summarised as follows:

Last season - keep us in the SPL - JOB DONE
This season - give us a firmer base and make us harder to beat - OVERALL, JOB DONE, but there are better teams out there like ICT, Well
Next season - add some creativity to that firmer base - we will have to see what the summer transfer window brings.

[Hiber-nation]

A club that finishes in the bottom 6 of the SPL regularly, which Hibernian do.

I've never understood why fans think we're a big club....lovely stadium...training facilities...but limited in fans and success.

This is part of a slow re-building job for me, it's disappointing to lose to St.Johnstone and ICT at home but they're simply just better than us.

3 times more fans than the majority of the teams above us. Not good enough!

[Andy74]

Funny that the last two managers that got us top 6 finishes, Paatelainen and Hughes, were hounded out and received some downright disgusting abuse on here yet Fenlon's avoiding similar despite guiding Hibs to consecutive bottom 6 finishes.

Maybe that should tell you something about the overall job he has to do and the fact he is getting there in terms of a number of things that needed addressed at the club? With some previous managers you didn't get the impression that they knew what needed done. Just my view but. Think he does and will do it. He's also on the verge of getting to his second Scottish Cup final in two years. That counts for something.

We were in a battle for top six and probably chucked it. That's different from being genuine relegation candidates.

[Beefster]

I have said this on a number of occasions (see my previous posts) but Fenlon's job can be summarised as follows:

Last season - keep us in the SPL - JOB DONE
This season - give us a firmer base and make us harder to beat - OVERALL, JOB DONE, but there are better teams out there like ICT, Well
Next season - add some creativity to that firmer base - we will have to see what the summer transfer window brings.


Honestly, where do folk get this pish?

[silverhibee]

I also liked Mixu, and was one of the rare people on here who wasn't demanding his sacking.

I'm also realistic, Hibs are a small club.

I merely follow for the banter and the occasional win.


But not in the SPL, we have the 2nd best stadium in the league and imo the best training facilities as well, and we must be up there in the top 3 for the biggest wage bill for a squad, the product on the pitch doesn't show that mind you.

[3pm]

Maybe that should tell you something about the overall job he has to do and the fact he is getting there in terms of a number of things that needed addressed at the club? With some previous managers you didn't get the impression that they knew what needed done. Just my view but. Think he does and will do it. He's also on the verge of getting to his second Scottish Cup final in two years. That counts for something.

What needs addressed?!

[alexhibs]

rQUOTE=cleanyman;3550949]A club that finishes in the bottom 6 of the SPL regularly, which Hibernian do.

I've never understood why fans think we're a big club....lovely stadium...training facilities...but limited in fans and success.

This is part of a slow re-building job for me, it's disappointing to lose to St.Johnstone and ICT at home but they're simply just better than us.[/QUOTE]

Fair points but really, we should be beating these teams as we have a far bigger fan base but for some strange reason we struggle

[Andy74]

Honestly, where do folk get this pish?

Due to it not being pish. If you think his job was different you are in denial about where we were as a club. We had barely won a league game at home in a year. Top six wasn't really top of the target list.

[Beefster]

Due to it not being pish. If you think his job was different you are in denial about where we were as a club. We had barely won a league game at home in a year. Top six wasn't really top of the target list.

Fenlon's target last season wasn't just to keep us up.

[Sir David Gray]

I also liked Mixu, and was one of the rare people on here who wasn't demanding his sacking.

I'm also realistic, Hibs are a small club.

I merely follow for the banter and the occasional win.

In world and European terms, we are a small club. There's no doubting that at all.

However, in Scottish terms, we are a very big club, one of the biggest clubs in the country.

[son of haggart]

Just as a matter of interest as I keep hearing this phrase more and more these days....but who was the last manager we had who had a " plan B " ?




Going along with the theme of this thread that would be Williamson















Mind you, Plan B was the cinema

[Hibs Class]

I reckon there might be a reason why you're not in charge of Hibs.



It chafes my nipples something rotten when folk trot out this line. His job, when he took over, was to get us into the top six. There is no way that Hibs employed him when we were 9th, and only 3 points from the top six, after 15 games and told him "aye, just keep us up, that's all we want".

if we sack managers every five minutes see will end up with managers who take a five minute view. We need to give them a longer term security to fix the club from the bottom up.

[Beefster]

if we sack managers every five minutes see will end up with managers who take a five minute view. We need to give them a longer term security to fix the club from the bottom up.

Even if it's Fenlon's job to rebuild the club from the bottom, that doesn't preclude him making the first team better than it is. Other SPL managers have achieved more than him in similar timescales and with much less resources.

[TornadoHibby]

Maybe that should tell you something about the overall job he has to do and the fact he is getting there in terms of a number of things that needed addressed at the club? With some previous managers you didn't get the impression that they knew what needed done. Just my view but. Think he does and will do it. He's also on the verge of getting to his second Scottish Cup final in two years. That counts for something.

We were in a battle for top six and probably chucked it. That's different from being genuine relegation candidates.

Why would we do that? :confused:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I would give Pat a 5 year contract, guarantee that he would not be sacked regardless of how much noise fickle fans made, and tell him he would be judged on performance in seasons 4&5.

Just as well you dinnae run the club then.

[Russ]

Other than the "stability" argument (which is valid) have you seen anything in Fenlon that justifies your faith in him?

I am worried that :-

1. We don't look fit or sharp - how are these players trained at east mains?
2. Fenlon doesn't seem to have an eye for a player (Kuqi, Kujabi, Deegan, Doyle)
3. Our tactics and style of football is grim
4. We have no pace in the team
5. We don't have a front partnership (imagine if Leigh gets injured?!?!)

The table does not lie and we are 8th in a dreadfully sub standard league well behind Motherwell, Ross co, ICT and the likes).

Simply not good enough and the buck stops with the manager (as Fenlon will know himself).

Can't argue with any of that. Still, I don't think he should be given the sack. We're still suffering from sacking Mixu, who I believe, would have had us playing this much sought after passing game the Hibs fans crave, and given his love for the club, a manager who was not here as just a stepping stone to the old firm or England. If we continue to sack managers there's only one way we're going long term.

[alexhibs]

A club that finishes in the bottom 6 of the SPL regularly, which Hibernian do.

I've never understood why fans think we're a big club....lovely stadium...training facilities...but limited in fans and success.

This is part of a slow re-building job for me, it's disappointing to lose to St.Johnstone and ICT at home but they're simply just better than us.

Maybae because ahve followed Hibs for forty years, traditionally and historically to me theyve always been a big club

[theonlywayisup]

Fenlon's target last season wasn't just to keep us up.

I am sure that when the Fenlon appointment was made, the usual guff about top six, big club etc was mentioned.

However, when he was appointed, Hibs were ninth in the table on 14 points, two behind Kilmarnock, who we had just drawn 1-1 with at home. We were one and two points ahead of Dunfemline and Aberdeen respectively, who both had a game in hand. ICT were bottom, also two points behind us.

Yes, it would have been let's look up. However, when you look at what was posted around the time, it was acknowledged that we had a poor side. The fans were saying that change was need to keep us in the SPL. We had two wins in 13 SPL games, most of which were loses. We then went on a run of seven SPL loses in nine as he got us to the January transfer window. Say what you want, but his job was to keep us in the SPL.

[DH1875]

Funny that the last two managers that got us top 6 finishes, Paatelainen and Hughes, were hounded out and received some downright disgusting abuse on here yet Fenlon's avoiding similar despite guiding Hibs to consecutive bottom 6 finishes.


:agree::top marks.

Neither of the should have been punted when they were.

[Hibs Class]

Just as well you dinnae run the club then.

You're right, because we are doing so marvellously well right now.

[The Voice Of Reason]

Don't know how you can say that. Football is a results based business and at the moment we are simply not getting the results we should be. Before the game he said this was our most important game of the season. Do you think the 3 sitting midfielders we started with suggested that was a formation to go and win the game? Do you think the players were up for it throughout the 90 minutes? We were outplayed by a team who were better organised. had strength, height and pace, who all worked for each other, whose movement off the ball was far superior than ours, whose desire was greater than ours and who played as if they needed and wanted to win the game. They were first to everything. IMO Kevin Thomson and young Harris were the only 2 outfield players to get pass marks. Williams wasn't at fault for either of their goals and made a couple of decent blocks when they were through in the first half. The quality of football we are watching is poor and for me the Manager's tactics leave a lot to be desired. I would suggest that if we lose to Falkirk we may well have to look for a new management team.

:top marks

[Jonnyboy]

Really?

I seem to recall players spitting the dummy out at Rods doorstep, because they weren't happy about JC's training methods and match tactics.

This was only weeks after winning our first piece of silverware in 15 years.

That took place, you're right. But the reason JC left was nowt to do with that. He's a strong willed individual and had he put his mind to it he'd have still been there when all those rebellious players had been moved on.

JC wasn't hounded out of ER. He walked when he couldn't get his own way regarding players he wanted to sign. He was told his budget and proceeded to produce a list of targets that would have exceeded the budget. When told 'no' he threw his dummy oot the pram and walked. Much as I loved JC as a player and will forever be grateful to him for leading us to that CIS Cup triumph, I think he left the club in the lurch when he simply walked out in the huff.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Even if it's Fenlon's job to rebuild the club from the bottom, that doesn't preclude him making the first team better than it is. Other SPL managers have achieved more than him in similar timescales and with much less resources.

In your view beefster would those clubs you compare Hibs against have the seemingly deep rooted cultural challenges that Hibs had (hopefully its 'had')

[Thecat23]

:agree::top marks.

Neither of the should have been punted when they were.

Yes they did, both weren't good enough at the time.

[DH1875]

Yes they did, both weren't good enough at the time.


Do you honestly believe that?

[Thecat23]

Do you honestly believe that?

Yeah I honestly do. Yogi is a poor manager and Mixu we get maybe couple of years to early. Why do you think we should have kept both on? Not being smart or that just interest to know.

[DH1875]

Yeah I honestly do. Yogi is a poor manager and Mixu we get maybe couple of years to early. Why do you think we should have kept both on? Not being smart or that just interest to know.


Who knows how it would have turned out but yip, I'd have given them a bit longer. That said I'd have stuck with or backed most of our recent managers. We can't just keep getting rid of them willy nilly. My worry is that the one we decide to stick with and back, turns out to be the wrong one. Time will tell.

[Thecat23]

Who knows how it would have turned out but yip, I'd have given them a bit longer. That said I'd have stuck with or backed most of our recent managers. We can't just keep getting rid of them willy nilly. My worry is that the one we decide to stick with and back, turns out to be the wrong one. Time will tell.

That's fair enough. One manager I didn't want from the start was CC and my patience ran out with him faster than any others as it was clear he was clueless. I do honestly think we were right to get rid of yogi and Mixu when we did. Like I've said in other threads I don't think its matters how many managers have been fired in the past if Fenlon isn't taking us forward, I'm looking at next season not this as its to early I think to sack him. Then he has to go as well. If the board picks the right man then we would t be firing managers all the time. But that's another matter.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

You're right, because we are doing so marvellously well right now.

Giving the current incumbent a five year contract would be your way of turning it around though. Aye, very good.

[Andy74]

Giving the current incumbent a five year contract would be your way of turning it around though. Aye, very good.

That would be the way to turn it around. It's settled teams with consistent coaching which is why smaller clubs are doing better than us.

Some good points made in other threads about current in form players. Their teams have stuck with them through spells when we'd have had them hounded out.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Certainly been coached consistently since the turn of the year.

Perhaps the smaller teams just have better coaches, who knows?

[500miles]

Even if it's Fenlon's job to rebuild the club from the bottom, that doesn't preclude him making the first team better than it is. Other SPL managers have achieved more than him in similar timescales and with much less resources.

Indulge me, and tell me who these managers are, who have come into squeeky bummed relegation candidate clubs, and made them top six clubs in a season. I can think of a couple of managers who have inherited a solid base - McCall/ Lomas/ Sheils. I can think of managers who have spent years building the team - Houston (with Levein, who had a tough first six months and an unremarkable season after that) and Derek Adams who has had a solid core of players together for the last 3 - 5 years.

We NEED to give Fenlon time. We always say that there are going to be dips in form , and a tough road ahead, but we, as supporters, never stick it out. We panic.

Look at Mixu. I remember an interview with Nish, who said that , when he came into the club, it wasn't a case of the players v the manager, it was the pro - Collins players v the anti - Collins players, and Mixu had to make it work. He lost good players, signed some good (Szama, Riordan, Murray, Bamba) some proven SPL players (Nish, Rankin, DVZ) and some diddies (Keenan and a couple ive managed to forget.). He held the squad together, got us a top six finish - only a couple of games away from Europe in the end, but it wasn't recognised, because we had been spoiled for a couple of years. Some of the football was poor, but we'd lost some of the best footballers in the league, and we had some solid defenses. There is no question in my mind that he would have built on that progress, because a later interview with Stevenson als referred to how the dressing room had come together under Mixu, and they were shocked to see him leave.

We need to stick with Fenlon. We were in rapid decline, and taking the season as a whole, that decline has ceased and we are making steps forward. He's done so much good work getting the best out of the likes of Griffiths and Stevenson too. He's doing OK, and he will get better still.

[BEEJ]

That took place, you're right. But the reason JC left was nowt to do with that. He's a strong willed individual and had he put his mind to it he'd have still been there when all those rebellious players had been moved on.

JC wasn't hounded out of ER. He walked when he couldn't get his own way regarding players he wanted to sign. He was told his budget and proceeded to produce a list of targets that would have exceeded the budget. When told 'no' he threw his dummy oot the pram and walked. Much as I loved JC as a player and will forever be grateful to him for leading us to that CIS Cup triumph, I think he left the club in the lurch when he simply walked out in the huff.
Whilst his departure wasn't easy to defend, I did have some sympathy for his arguments at the time that the club was being unduly niggardly in denying him the ability to sign Hammell from Southend on a suitable weekly wage as a replacement LB for the soon to be departing David Murphy.

Bear in mind JC had overseen the sales of Thomson, Whittaker, Brown and Sproule for £8.5m and Murphy was about to fetch a further £1.5m for the club.

In the same time he had spent just £0.6m on the transfer market - badly as it happens. :greengrin But the net gain to the club was vast - and much of that down to JC's own valuation of Thomson and Brown.

But to be denied the ability to sign a decent replacement for Murphy on the basis of a capped salary argument must have been galling in the above context.

[.Sean.]

Fenlon out butcher in

[Jonnyboy]

Whilst his departure wasn't easy to defend, I did have some sympathy for his arguments at the time that the club was being unduly niggardly in denying him the ability to sign Hammell from Southend on a suitable weekly wage as a replacement LB for the soon to be departing David Murphy.

Bear in mind JC had overseen the sales of Thomson, Whittaker, Brown and Sproule for £8.5m and Murphy was about to fetch a further £1.5m for the club.

In the same time he had spent just £0.6m on the transfer market - badly as it happens. :greengrin But the net gain to the club was vast - and much of that down to JC's own valuation of Thomson and Brown.

But to be denied the ability to sign a decent replacement for Murphy on the basis of a capped salary argument must have been galling in the above context.

Galling yes, BEEJ but enough to make this hard headed, confident and single minded man walk? As I said in my first post, JC was aware of his budget even after those mega sales and he had vowed to use his contacts to good effect so as to keep within that budget. The only 'contact' signing (excluding O'Brien who was a Tommy Craig recommendation) was Torben Joneleit who quite frankly was gash in his time for us.

I truly wish things had gone better under JC although it appears I'm slagging him off :greengrin I just wanted to point out that he did not walk because of the player revolt as many seem to think :agree:

[Andy74]

Whilst his departure wasn't easy to defend, I did have some sympathy for his arguments at the time that the club was being unduly niggardly in denying him the ability to sign Hammell from Southend on a suitable weekly wage as a replacement LB for the soon to be departing David Murphy.

Bear in mind JC had overseen the sales of Thomson, Whittaker, Brown and Sproule for £8.5m and Murphy was about to fetch a further £1.5m for the club.

In the same time he had spent just £0.6m on the transfer market - badly as it happens. :greengrin But the net gain to the club was vast - and much of that down to JC's own valuation of Thomson and Brown.

But to be denied the ability to sign a decent replacement for Murphy on the basis of a capped salary argument must have been galling in the above context.

The Hammell story is rubbish by the way.

[BEEJ]

Galling yes, BEEJ but enough to make this hard headed, confident and single minded man walk?

I truly wish things had gone better under JC although it appears I'm slagging him off :greengrin I just wanted to point out that he did not walk because of the player revolt as many seem to think :agree:
:agree: Yes, I agree that the player revolt had little or nothing to do with it.

Sadly though, I think Hammell would have been a good signing for us at the time.

[BEEJ]

The Hammell story is rubbish by the way.
So on top of everything else, JC is a liar, then? :cb

[Andy74]

So on top of everything else, JC is a liar, then? :cb

On certain aspects of his leaving then yes. Rod and the Board were very clear that Collins walked before even having a conversation about budget. This didn't match with Collins' version.

I know that he didn't enquire about Hammell and did not ask Hibs Board for funds to sign him.

For context just a few weeks later Hammell signed for a very skint Motherwell. Hibs within a couple of weeks had paid compensation for Mixu, Rankin and Nish and a few months later would bring Riordan back.

Oh and Ian Murray was signed for that left back position.

Does Hibs refusing a few quid for Hammell make sense?

[blackpoolhibs]

On certain aspects of his leaving then yes. Rod and the Board were very clear that Collins walked before even having a conversation about budget. This didn't match with Collins' version.

I know that he didn't enquire about Hammell and did not ask Hibs Board for funds to sign him.

For context just a few weeks later Hammell signed for a very skint Motherwell. Hibs within a couple of weeks had paid compensation for Mixu, Rankin and Nish and a few months later would bring Riordan back.

Oh and Ian Murray was signed for that left back position.

Does Hibs refusing a few quid for Hammell make sense?

That does make a mockery of some of these posts about why Collins left. :greengrin

[BEEJ]

On certain aspects of his leaving then yes. Rod and the Board were very clear that Collins walked before even having a conversation about budget. This didn't match with Collins' version.

I know that he didn't enquire about Hammell and did not ask Hibs Board for funds to sign him.

For context just a few weeks later Hammell signed for a very skint Motherwell. Hibs within a couple of weeks had paid compensation for Mixu, Rankin and Nish and a few months later would bring Riordan back.

Oh and Ian Murray was signed for that left back position.

Does Hibs refusing a few quid for Hammell make sense?
Well for starters Hibs were forced into paying compensation for Mixu having been caught out by JC's resignation. The club were also stunned by JC's criticism of it's financial dealings and had something to prove to the fans in short order.

I think Mixu was also fairly astute at the time in setting out some 'conditions' for him taking up the manager's post. He knew Murphy was about to be sold on for a six figure sum.

The club brought Riordan back in September 2008, two weeks after they had sold on Clayton Donaldson for a similar amount of money. :wink:

Motherwell may have been skint; but were they operating under a similar wage structure / cap? As is often the case, it's about having flexibility in the player budget.

[Emerald]

Pat Fenlon may well prove to be the best football manager of all time and he may well be the best appointment the board have ever made. If he is, it would prove to be pure luck, it would amount to betting on a 100/1 outsider with no playing or managing experience at full time level and against the odds to come up trumps His appointment was a joke to start with, we were trying to move on from some of the worst periods we've seen in recent years and the last thing we needed was a rookie. Yes, I support him, yes I've got a season ticket and I never boo or slate players or the manager at games BUT, Pat Fenlon is way out of his league. Taking the SPL in perspective, the size of Hibs and the budget he has, it it a massive failure not getting into the top six, are we in the shadows of Ross County, Inv Calley...........etc, it make you weep. The cup has massively papered over the huge cracks. Smell the coffee. Is this what we call progress, deary me?!!!!

[jacomo]

Blobby was anti football. PF gets the benefit of the doubt for the time being because of 2 cup runs and the dire mess CC left us in

Blobby replaced a club legend and Hibs felt like it was in decline.

PF replaced the least likeable manager imaginable (I'd take Mr Cinema back over CC any day of the week) and took on a club that already felt at rock bottom.

Context is everything - and the context here is that we found ourselves in a position where we are praying PF is the answer. It's been painful at times to watch a man learning as he goes but Pat has real restrictions on what he can do. Hibs need stability and unity above all.

[hibsbollah]

Sauzee sacking: Unfair. 2 months.
Williamson sacking: Justified. 2 years 2 months.
Mowbray leaving: Disappointing. 2 years 5 months.
Collins running away: Disappointing. 1 year 2 months.
Mixu sacking:Justified 1 year 5 months.
Yogi sacking: Justified. 1 year 5 months.
Calderwood sacking: Justified. 1 year 1 month.

Fenlon 1 year 5 months and counting.

IMO the Board has a good record of getting rid of managers at the right time, with the exception of Franck who deserved more. Unfortunately our record of appointing the right guy in the first place isnt as good. Im still backing Fenlon.

[hibsbollah]

The Hammell story is rubbish by the way.

According to the board its rubbish. Theres nothing definitive either way to prove or disprove either version of events.

[Andy74]

According to the board its rubbish. Theres nothing definitive either way to prove or disprove either version of events.

I know it's rubbish as well.

[hibsbollah]

I know it's rubbish as well.

Unless you were actually in the same room at the same time as the conversation took place im not sure you can say that definitively:dunno:

Its just as likely Collins wanted Hammell but it wasnt sanctioned because of his splurges on the likes of AOB and Maka.

[Tyler Durden]

That would be the way to turn it around. It's settled teams with consistent coaching which is why smaller clubs are doing better than us.

Some good points made in other threads about current in form players. Their teams have stuck with them through spells when we'd have had them hounded out.

FWIW I actually agree that we should give Fenlon another year. I struggle for rationale other than giving a manager time is a rare occurrence for us - has to pay off some time.

However I can't agree with this point about our rivals and their settled teams. Look at ICT, almost an entire team signed in the last 18 months. Ross County have replaced half their promoted team, St Johnstone and Killie are quite similar.

I can definitely see the argument for giving him time but that doesn't mean we have no right to have expected better so far. Making top 6 was very achievable.

[BEEJ]

According to the board its rubbish. Theres nothing definitive either way to prove or disprove either version of events.


I know it's rubbish as well.


Unless you were actually in the same room at the same time as the conversation took place im not sure you can say that definitively:dunno:

Its just as likely Collins wanted Hammell but it wasnt sanctioned because of his splurges on the likes of AOB and Maka.
Just to give the JC version of events, here is the interview he gave to the Scotland on Sunday on 23 December 2007, days after his departure.

A pretty impressive piece of fictional prose if its all completely without substance. :wink: But if even some of it was correct, then it was embarrassing to the club and so the Board would, of course, deny it.

Each of us has to decide what we believe. Unless perhaps we know Hammell (or any of the other players mentioned in the article) personally. :greengrin

---------
Beuzelin, Jones and Murphy to follow Collins out of Hibs
(Scotland on Sunday – 23 December 2007)

Trio unlikely to be at Easter Road next season as reality bites

"'There were alternatives. I could have carried on. It was a huge decision'"

By Moira Gordon

JOHN COLLINS may yet end up at Craven Cottage. It's not why he left Hibs, though. The fact is he could see a day dawning very soon without David Murphy, Rob Jones and Guillaume Beuzelin and after one summer spent scratching about the lower reaches on the club's behalf, he knew it would be virtually impossible to replace three of the team's main assets, like for like.

David Murphy has made no secret of his desire to better himself and despite a contract which links him to the club until 2010, his manager knew that with so many big clubs chasing his "most consistent performer" he would be unlikely to hold on to him beyond the end of the season. Sources close to Collins say that, combined with the knowledge that French midfielder Beuzelin has a pre-contract deal looming large in the new year and an inkling that Jones may not even stick around that long, with offers expected in January and Ipswich Town and Leeds United both interested, he was frustrated when the final board meeting confirmed there would be little flexibility in wage structure to entice key players to stay or a significant increase in money available for new signings.

Chairman Rod Petrie this week claimed that Hibs were only behind Celtic, Rangers and Hearts when it came to player salaries but, football insiders claim club captain Jones, on £1,700 a week, is actually paid less than half that of his Dundee United counterpart Barry Robson.

Apparently, Collins, batting on behalf of his players and aware of the money which has been brought in or freed up since his arrival 14 months previously, had asked the board to look at such anomalies. He wanted them to top up some existing players' wages by a couple of hundred pounds, to reflect their improved worth to the team or progression from bit-part reserve player to first-team squad member. He was insulted on the players' behalf that some of the CIS Cup winning team are still on basic weekly wages which range from £350-£500, and embarrassed that his intervention could not remedy the matter. The board's intransigence was the final straw.

"As a manager, you are always thinking ahead to acquisitions but it's not just about bringing new players in, it's about looking after existing players and I felt that some of the players who are already at Hibs deserved better rewards," Collins explained. "The amounts we were talking about were not a huge jump. There is a wage limit at the club, of course there is, there's budgets at every club but sometimes they have to be a little bit more flexible. There are young people and they won the cup and maybe we could have been a bit more flexible."

The protracted wrangling over a new deal for top scorer and prize asset Steven Fletcher was an obvious source of annoyance to Collins and he admitted that the fact one of the most promising young talents and most talismanic players was struggling to receive a modest increase did affect squad morale and brought the thought of quitting to the fore. "It could have been settled quicker. Eventually Steven got what he was after and that was great news for the club and for the fans." But those close to the player say that the delay led to ill-informed punters verbally abusing Fletcher, leading to sleepless nights which affected his form.

Hibs' frugal running of the club has merited praise in the past. While others have struggled, they have, thanks to Petrie's prudence, managed to reduce debt and find financial stability in tough times. They have a strict 42% turnover to wages ratio and in the past year they have brought in £8.8m in transfer fees for the likes of Kevin Thomson, Scott Brown, Steven Whittaker and Ivan Sproule. The quartet were among the higher wage earners, and the club also saved money there. Another 13 players have departed during Collins' time in charge, with only nine arriving. According to Hibs' own accounts, they paid out less than £1m on fees and other costs related to bringing players to the club, paying compensation to Newcastle United, Chelsea and Raja Casablanca for Republic of Ireland winger Alan O'Brien, Belgian Under-21 goalkeeper Yves Ma-Kalambay and Moroccan favourite Merouane Zemmama, respectively.

As a result of the trading, the all-important wages to turnover ratio had actually fallen from 42 per cent to 41 per cent thanks to the increase in turnover.

The new academy was bought and paid for at less than £4.5m and the club still managed to cut their net debt from £6.8m to less than £3m. Against such a backdrop Collins believed the time was right for some careful speculation aimed at accumulation. But in saving money for a rainy day, Hibs seem to have precipitated the downpour, or at least a downturn.

Describing the inflexibility as "a tipping point, well certainly one of the key points" at his press conference on Thursday, Collins' frustration was evident. Aware there was never likely to be cash to splash when he arrived, he did expect some latitude and seemed unprepared for the unwillingness to even manoeuvre upwards by a few hundred pounds to land Steven Hammell from Southend as a replacement for Murphy. He argued that the outlay was more of a cash advance, as the left-back would not be able to leave Easter Road without the club reaping a substantial fee.

Refusing to name Hammell directly, he said: "One of the two (players we had looked at signing in January] we couldn't afford, we couldn't match his wages, he's in the English Coca Cola League One. That's the thing that makes it a tough, tough job." It is believed that the Hibs board expected the player to take a £500-a-week wage cut to move north.

"The job as a football manager is a tough enough job. Ask any manager about buying players, even if you have massive transfer funds it's still a hugely difficult task but it's another level when you don't have transfer fees and sensible salaries to try to entice or keep hold of players. You can shop at Harrods or you can shop at the market stall down the road."

And it remains a matter of choice. Collins denied he had no alternative but to walk. "There were alternatives. I could have carried on. It was a huge decision for me, a tough decision but I felt that with the resources I had available I had taken the team as far as I could. We could all bite the bullet but it makes the job all the more difficult and it's hard enough as it is."

Others may have been forced to put up with it and shut up. But Collins has personal financial security, achieved thanks to the kind of spending and contractual sensibilities the Hibs board should admire. That allowed him the luxury of walking away before his own fledgling managerial career was tarnished by dropping standards. Employed for his single-minded determination and uncompromising and ambitious attitude, while that may have turned the players into more disciplined, focused and fitter players, those traits have also cost Hibs their manager.

"The more you sell players the harder it becomes," he said on Thursday. Just over 24 hours earlier he had stood on the platform alongside Petrie and owner Tom Farmer at the opening of the new training centre he helped to refine. He smiled as Farmer badgered him in front of the assembled fans and sponsors to bring home the Scottish Cup. The CIS Cup and the ability to punch above their weight in the Premierleague was, apparently, never going to be enough for some, yet, in his mind, he was not being given the cash to spend to realise everyone's burgeoning dreams.

Trying to betray no bitterness he offered a wry smile a day later when he said that, with no training centre now to pay for, maybe his successor would benefit by getting any money brought in from sales.

Maybe they will, but then again, such brilliant facilities have running costs and they will have to be factored into that all important wages to turnover equation.

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[Weir7]

The Hammell story is rubbish by the way.

Prove it Rod?

I know hamell. Also, mixu could have signed him. Mixu said too wee. He wanted Zarabi.

[MrRobot]

I genuinely think the problem PF took over at Easter Road was alot bigger than most of us realise. He has to be given more time.

[blackpoolhibs]

I genuinely think the problem PF took over at Easter Road was alot bigger than most of us realise. He has to be given more time.

Thats right, most of us go to easter road with our eyes shut. I wish folk would stop making excuses for every manager, he's failed to make us much better after spending decent money on players and loans.

He deserves the chance to get things right, and of course in 6 weeks time he could become a Hibernian legend, but lets not re write history here, we all know what was wrong last season, and Pat would also know.

[3pm]

I sometimes wish I went with my eyes shut.

[NOLA]

I sometimes wish I went with my eyes shut.

Lol that cheered me up :)

[ahibby]

Pat didn't have a good pedigree in management imo to start with. It seems to me that his standard(s) is showing now. I am not confident of our future under him but you never know he might learn a lot from this season but I have my doubts. I don't think he can be compared to BW as they are different types imo and have different strengths and weaknesses. BW insisted on everyone behind the ball when we lost possesion no matter whether a player had good defensive or poor defensive qualities and that was one of his weaknesses. PF doesn't play like that at all but he has messed about with a starting eleven too much for me, although some of it has been out with his control. KT couldn't have been in his plans at all and yet he is in before Robertson and Done who PF did plan/want to bring in. I feel the team is unsettled and it's costing us. Has Clancy or Cairney ever played in a competitive match with Thomson or Harris before yesterday? Maybe they have and I haven't noticed.