Hibs "worlds apart from last season"

[YehButNoBut]

Pat Fenlon is quoted in todays Scotsman saying that we are worlds apart from last season, actual words below.

But are we "worlds apart" from last season and if so what has been the difference??

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/football/hibs/hibs-worlds-apart-from-last-season-1-2849485

Admitting he’d endured a steep learning curve after arriving from Dublin club Bohemians to succeed Colin Calderwood, Fenlon said: “We had to throw ourselves head first into it and that’s what we have done.

“But I don’t look at my own situation, it’s just how we can progress the club. From where we have been to where we are now are worlds apart. We are talking about getting into the top six, the semi-final. Last year we were talking about relegation. That’s an improvement but we have to make sure we maintain that focus and we work on that.”

[hibsbollah]

Of course we are worlds apart, i dont know how anyone can even argue any different :dunno:

Improved results, but just as important a tangible team spirit and never say die attitude. Whereas last season we looked soft as shi'ite.

[blackpoolhibs]

Of course we are worlds apart, i dont know how anyone can even argue any different :dunno:

Improved results, but just as important a tangible team spirit and never say die attitude. Whereas last season we looked soft as shi'ite.

I'm no longer worried we might be relegated, thats a huge shift in my mind. I'm looking forward to the future under Fenlon, i was not looking forward to the next game under Calderclown.

Thats worlds apart in my opinion. :agree:

[PerfectlyFranck]

Dragonlord2:41 PM on 21/03/2013
Hibs are indeed far better than they were last season but that's what you get when you cheat. Did I say cheat? Yes that's right, by playing players you can't afford that's cheating, well that's certainly the criteria Hibs fans use so when will Hibs give up their league position an play fair?

[MWHIBBIES]

Dragonlord

2:41 PM on 21/03/2013
Hibs are indeed far better than they were last season but that's what you get when you cheat. Did I say cheat? Yes that's right, by playing players you can't afford that's cheating, well that's certainly the criteria Hibs fans use so when will Hibs give up their league position an play fair?Hibs haven't at any point played a player that they cannot afford this season, wages have always been paid on time and in full, this makes no sense at all.

[Pretty Boy]

Dragonlord2:41 PM on 21/03/2013
Hibs are indeed far better than they were last season but that's what you get when you cheat. Did I say cheat? Yes that's right, by playing players you can't afford that's cheating, well that's certainly the criteria Hibs fans use so when will Hibs give up their league position an play fair?

I'm guessing he's alluding to our loanees.

Unfortunately for him loans are part of the game and Hibs are paying ap percentage of the players salary we can afford so I fail to see the issue.

Of course if he wants to go down that route I take it he will be demnding Hearts 2006 Scottish Cup is forfeited considering how mny loan players they had that season.

[HibernianJK]

Worlds apart as a club, yes. Worlds apart in some aspect of the team, yes. Still progress to be made, but I like what im seeing from Fenlon and the players he's bringing in.

[Stevie Reid]

This time last year we had just lost at home to Dundee Utd, the table afterwards looked like this: -



1
Celtic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic)
30
45
75


2
Rangers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers)
30
36
54


3
Motherwell (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/motherwell)
31
6
54


4
Dundee Utd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dundee-united)
31
11
46


5
St Johnstone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-johnstone)
30
7
46


6
Hearts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/heart-of-midlothian)
31
5
42


7
Kilmarnock (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/kilmarnock)
31
-10
37


8
Aberdeen (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/aberdeen)
31
-5
33


9
St Mirren (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-mirren)
31
-14
32


10
Inverness CT (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/inverness-caledonian-thistle)
30
-16
31


11
Hibernian (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/hibernian)
31
-29
23


12
Dunfermline (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dunfermline-athletic)
31
-36
20



Our record at the time was P 31 W 5 D 8 L 18

A year later, the table looks like this: -




1
Celtic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic)
31
45
65


2
Motherwell (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/motherwell)
31
10
50


3
Inverness CT (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/inverness-caledonian-thistle)
31
8
47


4
Ross County (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/ross-county)
31
2
45


5
St Johnstone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-johnstone)
31
1
44


6
Hibernian (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/hibernian)
31
-3
40


7
Dundee Utd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dundee-united)
31
-5
40


8
Kilmarnock (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/kilmarnock)
30
4
38


9
Aberdeen (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/aberdeen)
31
-4
38


10
Hearts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/heart-of-midlothian)
31
-11
34


11
St Mirren (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/st-mirren)
30
-11
33


12
Dundee (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dundee)
31
-36
20



P 31 W 10 D 10 L 11

We may have a bigger budget than most but we were the worst team in the SPL to still be in it from last year, and all other teams got more money in terms of league placings and some, Motherwell especially, benefited from extra money from European football (granted we did get good cash from the SC).

Look at where we are compared to last year, how much closer we are to the top, and further away from the bottom. Then look how much closer we are to all the other teams (that we are not now above), and all the points we have made up on them. It's clear that we are the most improved team in the SPL, with ICT just behind.

If we improve as much next season as we have done this, and Fenlon's success rate in the transfer market continues, we'll be in a very good position indeed.

[Keith_M]

Hibs haven't at any point played a player that they cannot afford this season, wages have always been paid on time and in full, this makes no sense at all.


Exactly, it's a comment from a Hearts fan. :greengrin


Back to what PF said: It's his job to talk up Hibs and everyone can see there has been progress but I do think his choice of words, 'world's apart', is a bit of an exaggeration.

We're doing OK but there's a long way to go yet. If Hibs can reverse the trend of recent years of post-split points gathered, I'll be very pleased.




Oh and I think we all know we had a semi-final to look forward to last year as well but I for one wish we'd got beat at that stage :wink:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Hibs haven't at any point played a player that they cannot afford this season, wages have always been paid on time and in full, this makes no sense at all.

Maybe he means we should be further up the league!

[Peevemor]

Maybe he means we should be further up the league!

There are some on Brokeback who reckon that since Hibs have made an operating loss for the past couple of years, we are paying wages that we can't afford. Paying, for me, being an important distinction between them and us.

In addition, it's been so long since they were solvent they seem to have totally forgotten the concept.

[YehButNoBut]

Exactly, it's a comment from a Hearts fan. :greengrin


Back to what PF said: It's his job to talk up Hibs and everyone can see there has been progress but I do think his choice of words, 'world's apart', is a bit of an exaggeration.

We're doing OK but there's a long way to go yet. If Hibs can reverse the trend of recent years of post-split points gathered, I'll be very pleased.




Oh and I think we all know we had a semi-final to look forward to last year as well but I for one wish we'd got beat at that stage :wink:

Agree that the "worlds apart" is a bit of an exageration, however looking at the league tables from last year to this year there is a marked improvement on last year.

Looking forward to keeping at least the same level of improvement going over next year & the year after & seeing where that takes us. :pfgwa

[Feed McGraw]

We are better, no doubt, but we are still suffering some really bad losses. There are 5 top six places available this year as opposed to the usual 4, so its disappointing we are struggling to make it to that level. The top 6 means little to me these days anyway, its not as if its exciting or anything - but the Scottish cup ? If wee Pat can deliver THAT, he will go down in Hibernian folklore as one of the greatest managers and that truly would be " worlds apart " from what we`ve seen from Hibs for the last 5 or 6 years.

[PeeJay]

...maybe we should wait and see where we end up before Fenlon or anyone else make claims for the team being "worlds apart" from last season - I mean at one point we were 2nd if I recall, but we're not now - we're not assured of a top six slot, and we're not in a cup final yet either - and even if we get past the mighty Falkirk, we haven't won it yet either.

[Teapot]

Agree that the "worlds apart" is a bit of an exageration, however looking at the league tables from last year to this year there is a marked improvement on last year.

Looking forward to keeping at least the same level of improvement going over next year & the year after & seeing where that takes us. :pfgwa


For me Pats done a good job so far this season, but next season for me is where he'll earn his money. It wasn't hard to improve on last seasons team but will be much harder to improve for next season, especially if we lose Leigh. We badly needed pace down the flanks IMO and possibly another striker. I think Pats our man though!

:pfgwa

[Sir David Gray]

Of course we are worlds apart from last season, you just need to see the league table now, in comparison to the table at the same stage last season, to see that.

However, saying that we are worlds apart from last season does not mean to say that we are content with where we are at the moment and that further progress cannot be made.

We are possibly going to finish in the bottom six this season, that is not good enough for a club like Hibs and we need to see an improvement on that next season. If we do end up in the bottom six, that will be 3 years in a row where that has happened and that's unacceptable.

Regardless of that, we are still a long way from where we were this time last year. Last year, we had genuine fears that this season we would be a first division club. Thankfully we managed to avoid that and we stayed up in the end. This year there has been progress and improvement but there's still a long way to go before we're at a level that is acceptable for a club like Hibs and I'm sure Pat Fenlon would be the first person to tell you that.

[Hibercelona]

We're worlds apart if you take the full season so far into consideration.

We certainly aren't worlds apart if you just look over the last 10 games or so. There's "slumps" and there's "Hibs slumps".

"Hibs slumps" tend to last a lot longer.

[hibee19]

I don't think anyone would argue that Pat hasn't improved the team a fair deal from last season. Next season is key though, whilst Pat has stabilized the team I have questions over whether he will be the guy to get us where we need to be, fighting for 2nd/3rd place. If we sneak into the top 6 and reach the cup final he is right on track. Whilst performances haven't been where many people would like them to be its hard to argue with that level of progress.

[1two]

Forgetting results, we are worlds apart

I now look forward to Hibs games where as last season, I dreaded it.

There's generally a much better atmosphere around the club than their was last season.

[Heisenberg]

Fenlon himself will know how much still has to be done and he's commented throughout the season that we're nowhere near the finished article. We are definitely better than we've been for a number of years but there's still work to be done. Next season I'd say we have to be up challenging for 2nd/3rd/4th for a sustained period of time, consistency is something we've not had at Hibs for a long time mind you. I trust Fenlon to improve the team further in the summer and like some others I do actually look forward to the football now.

[Hibeesforever]

...maybe we should wait and see where we end up before Fenlon or anyone else make claims for the team being "worlds apart" from last season - I mean at one point we were 2nd if I recall, but we're not now - we're not assured of a top six slot, and we're not in a cup final yet either - and even if we get past the mighty Falkirk, we haven't won it yet either.



Yes, can't say I felt "worlds apart" after sitting seeing Motherwell net their fourth last week.
Still, Alex Harris, McGivern, Cairney, Robertson, Deegan and Thompson were not around last season

[Golden Bear]

Sorry to spoil the party but in my eyes:-

Results HAVE improved.

Performances did improve but the improvement was not sustained.

The style of football on display certainly HAS NOT improved.

So as things stand, there's no PAT on the back for Fenlon from me so he'll need to continue with his self assessment.

I'd best leave now methinks.


:offski:

[Stevie Reid]

The squad for that 31st game of last season.

Hibernian

01 Stack
02 Doherty Booked
04 Hanlon
19 Kujabi
22 Francomb
08 Claros (Wotherspoon - 77' )
13 Soares (Sproule - 58' )
16 Stevenson
24 Osbourne
18 O'Donovan (O'Connor - 64' )
28 Griffiths

Substitutes
31 Brown
05 O'Hanlon
25 Towell
07 Wotherspoon
17 Sproule
09 O'Connor
10 Doyle



Last Friday's: -

Hibernian


01 Williams
03 McGivern
06 McPake
18 Maybury Booked
08 Claros
14 Wotherspoon
16 Stevenson
17 Done (Doyle - 54' )
20 Taiwo
28 Robertson (Harris - 68' )
09 Griffiths
Substitutes


31 Murdoch
37 Forster
07 Deegan
33 Harris
38 Thomson
10 Doyle
24 Handling

[Stevie Reid]

Sorry to spoil the party but in my eyes:-

Results HAVE improved.

Performances did improve but the improvement was not sustained.

The style of football on display certainly HAS NOT improved.

So as things stand, there's no PAT on the back for Fenlon from me so he'll need to continue with his self assessment.

I'd best leave now methinks.


:offski:

Completely disagree with the bit in bold. There have been some really awful performances for sure, but there has been some lovely football played too. You must have blocked the Calderwood days from your mind - I don't blame you.

Overall, Fenlon's style is not a negative one, though undoubtedly some of the performances have been stuffy, defensive, and lacking in imagination (though at least in many games we actually could defend, unlike the unbelievable incompetency of the CC days). We still have major shortcomings but I'm very confident he can address them in time.

As another poster has alluded to, and as I have mentioned many times throughout this season, how I feel before Hibs games and how I feel about being a Hibbie in general, is worlds apart from last year. Last year I gave serious consideration to not renewing, only eventually doing so on the (initial) deadline of the PP. This year it has already been done and was never in question - I can't wait to see Hibs next season.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Hibs haven't at any point played a player that they cannot afford this season, wages have always been paid on time and in full, this makes no sense at all.

Might be referring to Kevin Thomson then?

[Heisenberg]

Theres no doubt that when the midfield click and we get the ball to Griffiths properly (not a big lump up the park) we've played some very nice football over the season. Its not been consistent and on some occasions we've played some horrible football which has both seen us both well beaten and also grind out wins. We will only improve next season, of that i've got no doubt.

[matty_f]

Might be referring to Kevin Thomson then?

We can definitely afford free players. :agree:

[The Sea-gull]

We have definitely improved as things stand of that there is no doubt and given that we can only make assessments based on what has happen thus far, any future predictions are just predictions and not facts, then up to this point improvement is undoubtedly there and I can't see how anyone could say otherwise. Things may not be great but just remember how bad they were 10 months ago.

The real assessment and analysis will come at the end of the season. Realistically now, looking at the league table and our own form plus that of others, if we make the top 6 the best we can maybe finish is 4th or 5th. That would be fantastic compared to where we were last season.

If we don't make the top 6 it will be a dissappointment but at the start of the season, I suggested that the minimum progress that would be acceptable for Fenlon to keep his job is challenging for a top 6 place and the avoidance of another relgation battle. I think he has now, barring freak results, delivered the bare minimum of acceptability IMHO. If we miss out on the top 6 the penalty against Dundee Utd and the goal that wasn't against Hearts will have something to do with it but a run of 16 points from a possible 54 (18 games) since mid-November (only 3 wins in there folks) has a bit more to do with it. The fact that we are still in the running for the top 6 says more about the quality of the league than anything else.

The problem is, and given our recent form and that our post split form is usually horrendous this is highly possible, we could still finish 11th. If we were to lose the cup semi or suffer another cup final humping (Celtic and Utd more than capable of turning us over) how would the season be viewed then? What would we think of Fenlon then?

On the other hand, we could scrape into the top 6, go on a wee run and finish 3rd/4th and win the cup and Pat will achieve god like status!

Two extreme outcomes and there are many more permutations which could happen but it just goes to show any real judgements on progress and how many worlds apart we are from last season should really wait a few weeks just yet.

The confirmation of the top 6 placings and the semi final over the next 2-3 weeks will allow for a better though not final judgement on the season and the progress made. It ain't over till it's over.

I'm guessing there isn't a Hibee in the land that wouldn't take 11th and a cup win though!

[Paisley Hibby]

We have definitely improved as things stand of that there is no doubt and given that we can only make assessments based on what has happen thus far, any future predictions are just predictions and not facts, then up to this point improvement is undoubtedly there and I can't see how anyone could say otherwise. Things may not be great but just remember how bad they were 10 months ago.

The real assessment and analysis will come at the end of the season. Realistically now, looking at the league table and our own form plus that of others, if we make the top 6 the best we can maybe finish is 4th or 5th. That would be fantastic compared to where we were last season.

If we don't make the top 6 it will be a dissappointment but at the start of the season, I suggested that the minimum progress that would be acceptable for Fenlon to keep his job is challenging for a top 6 place and the avoidance of another relgation battle. I think he has now, barring freak results, delivered the bare minimum of acceptability IMHO. If we miss out on the top 6 the penalty against Dundee Utd and the goal that wasn't against Hearts will have something to do with it but a run of 16 points from a possible 54 (18 games) since mid-November (only 3 wins in there folks) has a bit more to do with it. The fact that we are still in the running for the top 6 says more about the quality of the league than anything else.

The problem is, and given our recent form and that our post split form is usually horrendous this is highly possible, we could still finish 11th. If we were to lose the cup semi or suffer another cup final humping (Celtic and Utd more than capable of turning us over) how would the season be viewed then? What would we think of Fenlon then?

On the other hand, we could scrape into the top 6, go on a wee run and finish 3rd/4th and win the cup and Pat will achieve go like status!

Two extreme outcomes and there are many more permutations which could happen but it just goes to show any real judgements on progress and how many worlds apart we are from last season should really wait a few weeks just yet.

The confirmation of the top 6 placings and the semi final over the next 2-3 weeks will allow for a better though not final judgement on the season and the progress made. It ain't over till it's over.

I'm guessing there isn't a Hibee in the land that wouldn't take 11th and a cup win though!

I'd even take 12th and a cup win :greengrin

[The Voice Of Reason]

Of course we are worlds apart from last season, you just need to see the league table now, in comparison to the table at the same stage last season, to see that.

However, saying that we are worlds apart from last season does not mean to say that we are content with where we are at the moment and that further progress cannot be made.

We are possibly going to finish in the bottom six this season, that is not good enough for a club like Hibs and we need to see an improvement on that next season. If we do end up in the bottom six, that will be 3 years in a row where that has happened and that's unacceptable.

Regardless of that, we are still a long way from where we were this time last year. Last year, we had genuine fears that this season we would be a first division club. Thankfully we managed to avoid that and we stayed up in the end. This year there has been progress and improvement but there's still a long way to go before we're at a level that is acceptable for a club like Hibs and I'm sure Pat Fenlon would be the first person to tell you that.

Spot on sir, excellent post. :top marks

[JimBHibees]

We have definitely improved as things stand of that there is no doubt and given that we can only make assessments based on what has happen thus far, any future predictions are just predictions and not facts, then up to this point improvement is undoubtedly there and I can't see how anyone could say otherwise. Things may not be great but just remember how bad they were 10 months ago.

The real assessment and analysis will come at the end of the season. Realistically now, looking at the league table and our own form plus that of others, if we make the top 6 the best we can maybe finish is 4th or 5th. That would be fantastic compared to where we were last season.

If we don't make the top 6 it will be a dissappointment but at the start of the season, I suggested that the minimum progress that would be acceptable for Fenlon to keep his job is challenging for a top 6 place and the avoidance of another relgation battle. I think he has now, barring freak results, delivered the bare minimum of acceptability IMHO. If we miss out on the top 6 the penalty against Dundee Utd and the goal that wasn't against Hearts will have something to do with it but a run of 16 points from a possible 54 (18 games) since mid-November (only 3 wins in there folks) has a bit more to do with it. The fact that we are still in the running for the top 6 says more about the quality of the league than anything else.

The problem is, and given our recent form and that our post split form is usually horrendous this is highly possible, we could still finish 11th. If we were to lose the cup semi or suffer another cup final humping (Celtic and Utd more than capable of turning us over) how would the season be viewed then? What would we think of Fenlon then?

On the other hand, we could scrape into the top 6, go on a wee run and finish 3rd/4th and win the cup and Pat will achieve god like status!

Two extreme outcomes and there are many more permutations which could happen but it just goes to show any real judgements on progress and how many worlds apart we are from last season should really wait a few weeks just yet.

The confirmation of the top 6 placings and the semi final over the next 2-3 weeks will allow for a better though not final judgement on the season and the progress made. It ain't over till it's over.

I'm guessing there isn't a Hibee in the land that wouldn't take 11th and a cup win though!

Celtic yes, United No IMO. As for this season there was always going to be ups and downs. More good than bad for me and hope to see similar steady progress next season. Signing guys like Craig is a step in the right direction IMO.

[Eyrie]

Dragonlord

2:41 PM on 21/03/2013
Hibs are indeed far better than they were last season but that's what you get when you cheat. Did I say cheat? Yes that's right, by playing players you can't afford that's cheating, well that's certainly the criteria Hibs fans use so when will Hibs give up their league position an play fair?

Someone remind him how much the Yams are paying towards the wages of Wilson and NoGood.

[Danderhall Hibs]

We can definitely afford free players. :agree:

:hilarious But he's only playing for free cos we can't afford him..