Negativity, fan expectation

[West hamBERNIAN]

Like the thread title suggests, what do we expect, want from hibs? Seemed during the game tonight most were outraged with the defensive qualities, attacking qualities and desire. Personally I've been watching hibs since the mid ninetys, was there at the skol cup win but honestly I was that young I didn't know what was happening! We've had great team IMO and woeful teams, to me, we have a team that is where it maybe deserves to be, mid table. We seriously are lacking a couple of players that will take the ball down and pick out a player in midfield under pressure. These days it's not cheap/ easy to find a player available for obvious reasons. In a better team a lot of these players would be close to being legends at hibs.

[matty_f]

I think we're entitled to expect better than we got tonight - too many players had an off-night and we were poor in comparison to a Motherwell team right up for it, and who showed some real attacking flair and purpose.

[The Voice Of Reason]

I think we're entitled to expect better than we got tonight - too many players had an off-night and we were poor in comparison to a Motherwell team right up for it, and who showed some real attacking flair and purpose.

Did you go tonight Matty?

It cost me over £50 tonight (my choice I know). I am fed up paying good money to watch goons like Wotherspoon "play". How he is anywhere near the 1st team squad I will never know!

I respectfully suggest that if you did go tonight then you would have stronger feelings about our performance and current state. We are so far off of being a good team IMHO.

[matty_f]

Did you go tonight Matty?

It cost me over £50 tonight (my choice I know). I am fed up paying good money to watch goons like Wotherspoon "play". How he is anywhere near the 1st team squad I will never know!

I respectfully suggest that if you did go tonight then you would have stronger feelings about our performance and current state. We are so far off of being a good team IMHO.

Nah, my youngest is sick so I'm at home with her. Watched the 90 mins on ESPN, and feel as strongly about the performance (or lack of) as anyone else. That's why I posted that the fans are entitled to expect better than we saw tonight. :agree:

[IberianHibernian]

Hope ( more than expectation ) ? A team that competes for European places most if not all seasons in league and gets to later rounds of cups regularly ( a final at least once every 5 years in one of the cups for example ) while playing entertaining football . We rarely achieve this so whoever is manager or in team so it`s obviously much harder to achieve than we think despite low standard of SPL . Not many if any other than LG of current team would have got in team 5 or 6 years ago but other SPL teams are weaker too but we`re only one game from back to back cup finals after 11 years without a SC final so some positives .

[The Voice Of Reason]

Nah, my youngest is sick so I'm at home with her. Watched the 90 mins on ESPN, and feel as strongly about the performance (or lack of) as anyone else. That's why I posted that the fans are entitled to expect better than we saw tonight. :agree:

Fair dos mate ( hope the mrs gets well soon) :aok:

[matty_f]

Fair dos mate ( hope the mrs gets well soon) :aok:

Cheers :thumbsup: (though it's my daughter, rather than the mrs, who's ill :greengrin)

[The Voice Of Reason]

Cheers :thumbsup: (though it's my daughter, rather than the mrs, who's ill :greengrin)

Doh........:clown::idiot:

[West hamBERNIAN]

right, this is what i'm getting at. motherwell have been on a shoestring budget for years and yet they've been performing since. luck? effort? board backing managers? Less pressure on youngsters due to lower expectations? there must be an answer. every player that played tonight has been praised at some point for performances and yes it seems to be after a win, was mcpake only praised because last year we were so starved of genuine effort? did Lewis win player of the year because he was the only player who tried his heart out for a whole year? Think back to the good teams ie sauzee latapy, fenwick and smith where awful defenders and we had midfeilders like stuart lovell who played week in week out, we are never going to have team of great players even when we stretch the the budged. mcpake would have walked into that team IMO AND YET HE IS BEING SLAUGHTERED WEEK IN WEEK OUT lately.

[West hamBERNIAN]

Hope ( more than expectation ) ? A team that competes for European places most if not all seasons in league and gets to later rounds of cups regularly ( a final at least once every 5 years in one of the cups for example ) while playing entertaining football . We rarely achieve this so whoever is manager or in team so it`s obviously much harder to achieve than we think despite low standard of SPL . Not many if any other than LG of current team would have got in team 5 or 6 years ago but other SPL teams are weaker too but we`re only one game from back to back cup finals after 11 years without a SC final so some positives .

and yet the majorirty are castrating the efforts of the current crop of players, we all know in the the last couple of games the officials alone have cost us 4 points. if not would we still be so negative about tonight, probably! the fact were in a better financial position seems to be a weight on our shoulders, in years to come if we continue to be be smart then we won't even have to break budget and we should be much stronger than the majority of the current opppisition, i think dunfermline proves this, they didnt spend big and look where they are? i'm not pleased by this, I'm from Dunfermline but its obvious what way these teams are going, ie Kilmarnock Hearts Pars St Johnstone, Were all surviving on loan deals.

[gogs_t]

right, this is what i'm getting at. motherwell have been on a shoestring budget for years and yet they've been performing since. luck? effort? board backing managers? Less pressure on youngsters due to lower expectations? there must be an answer. every player that played tonight has been praised at some point for performances and yes it seems to be after a win, was mcpake only praised because last year we were so starved of genuine effort? did Lewis win player of the year because he was the only player who tried his heart out for a whole year? Think back to the good teams ie sauzee latapy, fenwick and smith where awful defenders and we had midfeilders like stuart lovell who played week in week out, we are never going to have team of great players even when we stretch the the budged. mcpake would have walked into that team IMO AND YET HE IS BEING SLAUGHTERED WEEK IN WEEK OUT lately.

I was trying not to post tonight as I would normally wait until the day after a game but totally disagree with that! I'd take either of them at the moment. I don't think McPake would have walked into that team. However his performances recently would have him close to it.

[SouthamptonHibs]

I love hibs but they hay day has gone. Happy clapped want goals the average want life who to believe...**** it in out xxxx

[West hamBERNIAN]

I love hibs but they hay day has gone. Happy clapped want goals the average want life who to believe...**** it in out xxxx

holy moly

[SouthamptonHibs]

holy moly

We r ***** hail hail

[West hamBERNIAN]

I was trying not to post tonight as I would normally wait until the day after a game but totally disagree with that! I'd take either of them at the moment. I don't think McPake would have walked into that team. However his performances recently would have him close to it.

i think maybe your forgetting how bad they could be, don't know why but i vividly remember fenwick standing over a free kick taking an age to take it, sauzee gets ****ed off waiting, walks over passes it to him then takes it off him. properly mugged off for being **** not even going to mention lack of positional sense defending ability.:agree:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Top 6 in a Rangers-less, worst its ever been SPL is the least we can expect. I realise it could still happen, but, 1 win in 10 league games isnae too promising.

[Hibercelona]

I don't think people ask for that much really. Just a respectable league finish for a club with better resources than 10 other clubs in the league and possibly a bit more silverware in the cabinet.

Most of our probems/limitations seem to be self inflicted.

[sesoim]

I don't think people ask for that much really. Just a respectable league finish for a club with better resources than 10 other clubs in the league and possibly a bit more silverware in the cabinet.

Most of our probems/limitations seem to be self inflicted.



Spot on. Normally a 4th/5th place (and a fairly attacking team) would be about right, but without Rangers, and with Hearts so depleted, this season was the first of three great chances we had at finishing 2nd. We failed this season.

To finish behind Ross Co and Inverness suggests Fenlon isn't as good at putting a team together as they are, even with a much better budget. It shouldn't take long to turn us around nowadays because virtually every team in the SPL has a huge turnover of staff every summer, so it is all about who does the best with their annual budget. Based on our results, Fenlon hasn't done well enough.

Of course, winning the Cup would blow all that out of the water, let's live in hope.

[hibbydog]

What do we expect from Hibs?

Very good question....

I've been on the planet since 1979. Since then, we've been relegated twice, won the league cup twice and had the odd foray into the uefa cup.

So why should I expect anything better in the future? It's a fairly obvious point: I don't expect anything better than mid table finishes and hampden disappointments.

It doesn't stop me wanting/hoping for better, and yes, we're one of the 3 or 4 biggest clubs in the league so our league position should probably reflect this.

The reason Hibs are guff is that we've been guff for years now and are still rebuilding. That rebuilding might take a couple of years, not a couple of transfer windows.

Fenlon probably isn't the best, but it's high time we backed our manager and have him a reasonable time frame to sort out the mess he inherited. That doesn't happen overnight.

So yes, for the meantime mid table and occasional drubbings like last night will happen

[PISTOL1875]

What we expect from our team is quite simple , we expect our team to turn up for a kick off, attack , be defensive organised and players to do there jobs properly..

[GGTH1-0]

Hibs are arguably the 3rd/4th biggest club in the league right now with the third biggest budget. I would expect at least top 6 finish every year and that is modest.

[Bobo]

In 15 seasons of the SPL we have only finished higher than 6th on 4 occasions. We weren't involved in the first season (1998/99) having been the worst team and subsequently relegated from the former Premier League the season before.

Our average league finish is a little under 6.5 so sixth. Two 3rd and two 4th placed finishes are scant return in that time considering the poor standard of the SPL and don't suggest that we should be looked upon as one of the top four teams in the country.

[West hamBERNIAN]

I'm fairly sure our budget isn't that much bigger than most, maybe stretch to a couple of extra squad players? Are we using the said larger budget? i really doubt we'll see the likes of even Zemmama come in again. What do you all think as a club we are neglecting to do? every team has bad games, this is why i never win coupons. In every league in the world there's teams that over achieve, perform better than there players, budget would suggest they should, look at liverpool, massive budget, Some great players and like us they can't get consistent performances. I really think we are a few players short of a solid winning team. :agree:

[hibeesjoe]

Competing at the top of the table. If we have a larger budget than other teams then we have no excuse. We can't go changing managers every season or 2 but that's where the buck stops if a team is struggling.

[rcarter1]

I'm fairly sure our budget isn't that much bigger than most, maybe stretch to a couple of extra squad players? :

This bit does concern me a bit. I dont expect miracles, and given how bad we had become, Im not that concerned about last nights result. What does concern me is that our budget should be an awful lot bigger than some of the clubs above us.

Average attendances of the four sides above us:

Motherwell...........5077
ICT.....................4088
Ross County.........4355
St Johnstone........3739

HIBS...................10809

We - in theory - should be able to pay double the wages, or twice the size of squad. If it isnt the case, then I strongly believe the club is getting something wrong somewhere.

[West hamBERNIAN]

Competing at the top of the table. If we have a larger budget than other teams then we have no excuse. We can't go changing managers every season or 2 but that's where the buck stops if a team is struggling.

doesnt necesserily get results though does it, we've had many more bad managers than failed managers than sucesses.

[Gmack7]

i expect all of our players to be faster than me after i had consumed 6 pints.they dont look as though they are

[West hamBERNIAN]

This bit does concern me a bit. I dont expect miracles, and given how bad we had become, Im not that concerned about last nights result. What does concern me is that our budget should be an awful lot bigger than some of the clubs above us.

Average attendances of the four sides above us:

Motherwell...........5077
ICT.....................4088
Ross County.........4355
St Johnstone........3739

HIBS...................10809

We - in theory - should be able to pay double the wages, or twice the size of squad. If it isnt the case, then I strongly believe the club is getting something wrong somewhere.

So is the board not fully backing pat, they say the budget has been completely spent, is that because we all demanded to sign mcpake and what they had to pay ate the budget up? weve had far worse players at hibs than the current lot, think brian kerr. could be worse sadly. but surely the abuse on the match thread towards certain players last night was uncalled for, yes theres something wrong, some players havent been great but they're all doing there best out there. supporters should surely support and hope for better times ahead. :agree:

[West hamBERNIAN]

i expect all of our players to be faster than me after i had consumed 6 pints.they dont look as though they are

:greengrin nae bother usain.

[tamig]

This bit does concern me a bit. I dont expect miracles, and given how bad we had become, Im not that concerned about last nights result. What does concern me is that our budget should be an awful lot bigger than some of the clubs above us.

Average attendances of the four sides above us:

Motherwell...........5077
ICT.....................4088
Ross County.........4355
St Johnstone........3739

HIBS...................10809

We - in theory - should be able to pay double the wages, or twice the size of squad. If it isnt the case, then I strongly believe the club is getting something wrong somewhere.

It's not just about crowds and wages though. I'm pretty sure our other outgoings - other than player wages - will be way higher than any of the smaller clubs you mention above.

[hibeesjoe]

doesnt necesserily get results though does it, we've had many more bad managers than failed managers than sucesses.

The manager sources and signs the players. If Hibs have a larger budget then you would like to think that it means a better standard of player is signed. A good manager should also be able to motivate an average player. McCall, Adams and Butcher are proof of that.

[rcarter1]

It's not just about crowds and wages though. I'm pretty sure our other outgoings - other than player wages - will be way higher than any of the smaller clubs you mention above.

The bold is what bugs me a bit. Are we crippled by being a capitol city club? Our expenses apart from wages should be pretty similar to other clubs - No? Who are we paying and what for? Policing, Rates, etc Im not sure.

All that said, I agree with underlined bit. Getting players to play well and sourcing quality are all part of the success of clubs with less budget than us.

[tamig]

The bold is what bugs me a bit. Are we crippled by being a capitol city club? Our expenses apart from wages should be pretty similar to other clubs - No? Who are we paying and what for? Policing, Rates, etc Im not sure.

All that said, I agree with underlined bit. Getting players to play well and sourcing quality are all part of the success of clubs with less budget than us.
We're still paying the stadium off for starters.

[rcarter1]

We're still paying the stadium off for starters.

OK, so it is making more sense now. I've been confused a bit by people yam baiting saying we've got a stadium sorted etc etc.

Well, in a few years we should be able to flex our financial advantage a bit better. Any idea how long the repayments are scheduled for?

[tamig]

OK, so it is making more sense now. I've been confused a bit by people yam baiting saying we've got a stadium sorted etc etc.

Well, in a few years we should be able to flex our financial advantage a bit better. Any idea how long the repayments are scheduled for?

I believe it's all mortgages so will be paying off steadily over a number of years. No idea what the terms are though but I wouldn't imagine it would be much more than another ten years or so. Maybe someone else could confirm. As you say, we are in a good position as far as that's concerned, as the stadium and training ground are complete now. We should, hopefully, see the benefit of that coming through with more investment on the playing side in the years ahead.

[Crossgates Hibs]

I believe it's all mortgages so will be paying off steadily over a number of years. No idea what the terms are though but I wouldn't imagine it would be much more than another ten years or so. Maybe someone else could confirm. As you say, we are in a good position as far as that's concerned, as the stadium and training ground are complete now. We should, hopefully, see the benefit of that coming through with more investment on the playing side in the years ahead.
I believe it's all been remortgaged interest only for 25 years a couple of seasons ago. We have an advantage having our own training centre etc but wages are more tricky. We need to stop signing the like of Done when Harris, Doyle or even Ivan could have coped with that. If we had signed Higdon we would be scoring for fun with Leigh playing off him. It's players such as him we should be looking and offering better terms to cherry picking the rest of our own league not fishing around in England or Ireland. Mcfaddon tore us apart last night he is old firm quality and at Well same as Thompson at Hibs but wont stay. Glad we signed Craig now if we are to lose mcgivern then maybe Webster maybe worth a years contract on reduced terms Hearts won't be keeping him. Outside Celtic and possibly Aberdeen we should be able to offer better wages. We need to stop buying unknowns from England where good players are on a decent wedge. Ben Williams being the odd exception.

[West hamBERNIAN]

I believe it's all been remortgaged interest only for 25 years a couple of seasons ago. We have an advantage having our own training centre etc but wages are more tricky. We need to stop signing the like of Done when Harris, Doyle or even Ivan could have coped with that. If we had signed Higdon we would be scoring for fun with Leigh playing off him. It's players such as him we should be looking and offering better terms to cherry picking the rest of our own league not fishing around in England or Ireland. Mcfaddon tore us apart last night he is old firm quality and at Well same as Thompson at Hibs but wont stay. Glad we signed Craig now if we are to lose mcgivern then maybe Webster maybe worth a years contract on reduced terms Hearts won't be keeping him. Outside Celtic and possibly Aberdeen we should be able to offer better wages. We need to stop buying unknowns from England where good players are on a decent wedge. Ben Williams being the odd exception.

Is Done not on loan, if so theres no need to moan:cb won't be paying much or any. As for not buying unknowns from England, you never know how different players are going to react to different environments, See Sproule at County Vaz Te in Championship. It can be pot luck at times but i wouldn't surprised if Done was to turn it on. hes definitely got ability, last night was his worst game but all of a sudden he's the worst player at hibs:confused:

[West hamBERNIAN]

Is Done not on loan, if so theres no need to moan:cb won't be paying much or any. As for not buying unknowns from England, you never know how different players are going to react to different environments, See Sproule at County Vaz Te in Championship. It can be pot luck at times but i wouldn't surprised if Done was to turn it on. hes definitely got ability, last night was his worst game but all of a sudden he's the worst player at hibs:confused:

Do agree higdon would probably be a great sucess at hibs and i do prefer Doyle in wide positions, was really effective in 1 nil vrs Celtic i thought

[J-C]

Problem is we've shipped 7 goals in 3 games against Motherwell, not to mention the 3-0 1st game Dundee U, the 3-2 loss to Ross C, 3-0 humping at Caley, another humping 3-1 at Dundee and then the 1-3 hammering from St Johnstone at home. Our majority of wins have been by the odd goal except against Dundee( 3-0 ), so while we have been hammered on numerous occasions, we haven't dished it out very often.

[West hamBERNIAN]

Problem is we've shipped 11 goals in 3 games against Motherwell, not to mention the 3-0 1st game Dundee U, the 3-2 loss to Ross C, 3-0 humping at Caley, another humping 3-1 at Dundee and then the 1-3 hammering from St Johnstone at home. Our majority of wins have been by the odd goal except against Dundee( 3-0 ), so while we have been ham thimered on numerous occasions, we haven't dished it out very often.

0-4 against motherwell :confused: that makes us 7-7 with them over the season, i think weve had some heavier losses this season because when we've been down in a game we've been putting more forward to get back in games and getting caught short. rather lose 3-1 trying to get back than 2-1 hoping to get back.

[J-C]

0-4 against motherwell :confused: that makes us 7-7 with them over the season, i think weve had some heavier losses this season because when we've been down in a game we've been putting more forward to get back in games and getting caught short. rather lose 3-1 trying to get back than 2-1 hoping to get back.


My bad, I misread that as a loss against them lol

[West hamBERNIAN]

My bad, I misread that as a loss against them lol


:wink:

[Steve20]

right, this is what i'm getting at. motherwell have been on a shoestring budget for years and yet they've been performing since. luck? effort? board backing managers? Less pressure on youngsters due to lower expectations? there must be an answer. every player that played tonight has been praised at some point for performances and yes it seems to be after a win, was mcpake only praised because last year we were so starved of genuine effort? did Lewis win player of the year because he was the only player who tried his heart out for a whole year? Think back to the good teams ie sauzee latapy, fenwick and smith where awful defenders and we had midfeilders like stuart lovell who played week in week out, we are never going to have team of great players even when we stretch the the budged. mcpake would have walked into that team IMO AND YET HE IS BEING SLAUGHTERED WEEK IN WEEK OUT lately.

McPake would have been lucky to get on the bench back then.

[West hamBERNIAN]

McPake would have been lucky to get on the bench back then.

If thats your actuall opinion then fair enough, those players IMO were exposed for what they were when sauzee took the managers job.

[Crossgates Hibs]

Problem is we've shipped 7 goals in 3 games against Motherwell, not to mention the 3-0 1st game Dundee U, the 3-2 loss to Ross C, 3-0 humping at Caley, another humping 3-1 at Dundee and then the 1-3 hammering from St Johnstone at home. Our majority of wins have been by the odd goal except against Dundee( 3-0 ), so while we have been hammered on numerous occasions, we haven't dished it out very often.

We won't the way we play lumping long balls to the smallest guy on the park. Nobody looking to get forward in support of Griffiths. We are too slow in trying to attack throw ins just drive me mad wasted every time.