Dunfermline financial problems (merged)

[DaveF]

No statement yet? Talk about dragging it out......

[patlowe]

I can't help feel that they are dead, unfortunately, and I'm not sure there is the political/emotional will or circumstance to get a relatively unscathed phoenix club off the ground a la newco.

[Part/Time Supporter]

No statement yet? Talk about dragging it out......

They're trying to appoint an administrator this afternoon

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Jumped on from a great height and nearly bust soon yet the media and authorities say absolutely nothing about the yams :rolleyes:

Just what goes on?

[scott7_0(Prague)]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11781/8599193/Dunfermline-apply-to-enter-voluntary-administration-amid-financial-crisis

[DaveF]

Leishman "great news for us"

Is it great news for however many small businessess may be owed money and are perhaps going to get next to nothing?

[DarrenSQH]

Leishman "great news for us"

Is it great news for however many small businessess may be owed money and are perhaps going to get next to nothing?

Yeah thats a strange comment. I hardly think all the players who will be let go as soon as they enter admin will think its so great.

[Billy Whizz]

What's the points penalty for this?

[Peevemor]

Yeah thats a strange comment. I hardly think all the players who will be let go as soon as they enter admin will think its so great.

It is great news - considering the alternative (liquidation).

[bingo70]

Why did they not apply to go into admin sooner?

[Keith_M]

What's the points penalty for this?


It says in the article 10 points.

[Peevemor]

Why did they not apply to go into admin sooner?

Is it not because they've been trying to do a deal to get Masterton out and then pay the taxman before the deadline?

[bingo70]

Is it not because they've been trying to do a deal to get Masterton out and then pay the taxman before the deadline?

No idea, seems a strange way to do it and get so close to liquidation if they had this option up there sleeve the whole time?

Sure there must be a reason but I know less than **** all abour this kind of thing

[Keith_M]

Is it not because they've been trying to do a deal to get Masterton out and then pay the taxman before the deadline?


No idea, seems a strange way to do it and get so close to liquidation if they had this option up there sleeve the whole time?

Sure there must be a reason but I know less than **** all abour this kind of thing


Maybe they wanted to find some way to do the honourable thing, pay all their bills, before falling back on the Admin option.

[Hibbylad86]

Does anyone know if they have any decent players on their books (1st team and youth) that we could pick up on the cheap because of this?

[Sylar]

What's the points penalty for this?

They should be punted into the third division if the SFL had any level of consistency.

[DarrenSQH]

Does anyone know if they have any decent players on their books (1st team and youth) that we could pick up on the cheap because of this?

They just made it to the U-20s scottish cup final so you would think they must be decent.

[Peevemor]

No idea, seems a strange way to do it and get so close to liquidation if they had this option up there sleeve the whole time?

Sure there must be a reason but I know less than **** all abour this kind of thing

Because the fans (who have collected money) don't want to pay the tax bill and leave Masterton in control.

[Andy74]

They should be punted into the third division if the SFL had any level of consistency.

What's the precedent?

[Beefster]

They should be punted into the third division if the SFL had any level of consistency.


What's the precedent?

I think Livi and Gretna were relegated to the bottom but the circumstances may have been different. I seem to recall something about those two breaking SFL rules or something.

[Gus Fring]

They should be punted into the third division if the SFL had any level of consistency.

Dunfermline have gone into administration. Oldco Rangers were liquidated and sold to someone else. As has been stated several times, Div 3 for Newco Rangers was not a punishment, it was a consequence.

[Spike Mandela]

Ho hum, yaaaaaawn, football club has a few good years, pays wagesand transfer fees it can't afford,builds new stands, racks up huge debts, loses tv deals, good times leave, attendances drop, stories start to circulate about not paying players, denied stories, just a cash flow problem, cutting our cloth to suit blah blah, tax bill goes unpaid, HMRC get tough, clubs 'financial woes' in media, deadline set for payments, club figurehead appointed to try to rally fans and save club, emotional pleas to media, community needs club, shame for ordinary fans, no buyer found, administration or liquidation look certain, bang it's administration, creditors shafted, HMRC shafted, players lose jobs, admin staff lose job, ineffectual punishment from authorities, some new consortium start hovering to get club on cheap, buy club carcass and hailed as saviours, announce club will never be put in same position again then start whole process again.

Roll up, roll up who's next for the great administration get out clause.

[DaveF]

Because the fans (who have collected money) don't want to pay the tax bill and leave Masterton in control.

So if they get their voluntary administration how much of the £134,000 will HMRC see?

[Sylar]

Dunfermline have gone into administration. Oldco Rangers were liquidated and sold to someone else. As has been stated several times, Div 3 for Newco Rangers was not a punishment, it was a consequence.

Rangers aren't my precedent here - they're quite a different case as they made the transition from SPL to SFL. The penalties imposed on them were SPL-centric and as you say, entry to the third division was a consequence.

Livingston on the other hand were dropped to the third division due to a breach of rule 72.6 which cites insolvency and defines it as the appointment of any financial overseer, administrator or liquidator. The punishment is discretionary to the SFL board and there's no hard and fast rule for how such clubs should be dealt with (hence why Dundee didn't get dumped down when they entered admin for the second time).

A clear and unambiguous, predefined guideline for dealing with this situation is needed in the SFL as there isn't presently one universal sanction - it's at the behest of the SFL board which is loaded with self-interested chairmen of rival clubs.

[Peevemor]

So if they get their voluntary administration how much of the £134,000 will HMRC see?

Maybe the group who want to take control are looking to pay it all? I've really no idea.

[Andy74]

Rangers aren't my precedent here - they're quite a different case as they made the transition from SPL to SFL. The penalties imposed on them were SPL-centric and as you say, entry to the third division was a consequence.

Livingston on the other hand were dropped to the third division due to a breach of rule 72.6 which cites insolvency and defines it as the appointment of any financial overseer, administrator or liquidator. The punishment is discretionary to the SFL board and there's no hard and fast rule for how such clubs should be dealt with (hence why Dundee didn't get dumped down when they entered admin for the second time).

A clear and unambiguous, predefined guideline for dealing with this situation is needed in the SFL as there isn't presently one universal sanction - it's at the behest of the SFL board which is loaded with self-interested chairmen of rival clubs.

I don't think Livingston were demoted due to going into admininstration. They failed to provide a bond to cover the costs of being able to carry out fixtures. This pentalty was also only available during the close season.

Dundee were dealt with differently as it was mid season and I presume they could also show that they could fulfill the fixtures?

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

Ho hum, yaaaaaawn, football club has a few good years, pays wagesand transfer fees it can't afford,builds new stands, racks up huge debts, loses tv deals, good times leave, attendances drop, stories start to circulate about not paying players, denied stories, just a cash flow problem, cutting our cloth to suit blah blah, tax bill goes unpaid, HMRC get tough, clubs 'financial woes' in media, deadline set for payments, club figurehead appointed to try to rally fans and save club, emotional pleas to media, community needs club, shame for ordinary fans, no buyer found, administration or liquidation look certain, bang it's administration, creditors shafted, HMRC shafted, players lose jobs, admin staff lose job, ineffectual punishment from authorities, some new consortium start hovering to get club on cheap, buy club carcass and hailed as saviours, announce club will never be put in same position again then start whole process again.

Roll up, roll up who's next for the great administration get out clause.

This

[lEXO]

Ho hum, yaaaaaawn, football club has a few good years, pays wagesand transfer fees it can't afford,builds new stands, racks up huge debts, loses tv deals, good times leave, attendances drop, stories start to circulate about not paying players, denied stories, just a cash flow problem, cutting our cloth to suit blah blah, tax bill goes unpaid, HMRC get tough, clubs 'financial woes' in media, deadline set for payments, club figurehead appointed to try to rally fans and save club, emotional pleas to media, community needs club, shame for ordinary fans, no buyer found, administration or liquidation look certain, bang it's administration, creditors shafted, HMRC shafted, players lose jobs, admin staff lose job, ineffectual punishment from authorities, some new consortium start hovering to get club on cheap, buy club carcass and hailed as saviours, announce club will never be put in same position again then start whole process again.

Roll up, roll up who's next for the great administration get out clause.

Agreed. I,m sick of it to be honest. The amount of tax and debt football clubs have managed to duck out of paying is disgusting.

[PatHead]

Surely the administrators have to come to an agreement with HMRC who have an history of not accepting administration? It might not be over yet.

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely the administrators have to come to an agreement with HMRC who have an history of not accepting administration? It might not be over yet.

It's not necessarily HMRC that an administrator (and one hasn't been appointed yet, as far as I can tell) has to come to an agreement with.

If the administrator decides to go down the CVA route, a la Rangers, he has to get the agreement of 75% of the creditors, in value, to that arrangement. I am not sure of the extent and nature of DAFC's debts, and they seem to be particularly complex. If Masterton, for example has more than 75% of the debt then he can push a CVA through on his own and HMRC's view is irrelevant.

[PatHead]

It's not necessarily HMRC that an administrator (and one hasn't been appointed yet, as far as I can tell) has to come to an agreement with.

If the administrator decides to go down the CVA route, a la Rangers, he has to get the agreement of 75% of the creditors, in value, to that arrangement. I am not sure of the extent and nature of DAFC's debts, and they seem to be particularly complex. If Masterton, for example has more than 75% of the debt then he can push a CVA through on his own and HMRC's view is irrelevant.

Didn't realise Masterton had that much of the debt though I am sure I read somewhere that he held security over East End Park which may reduce his say in a CVA. Wonder what their stadium is worth?

[CropleyWasGod]

Didn't realise Masterton had that much of the debt though I am sure I read somewhere that he held security over East End Park which may reduce his say in a CVA. Wonder what their stadium is worth?

I don't know how much he is owed. I did try to read about it last week, but it seemed horrendously complex. You're right, though, if he has security then he has no say in the CVA.

That said, do DAFC actually own EEP? I thought I had read that they don't.

[PatHead]

I don't know how much he is owed. I did try to read about it last week, but it seemed horrendously complex. You're right, though, if he has security then he has no say in the CVA.

That said, do DAFC actually own EEP? I thought I had read that they don't.

There are that many clubs in dire straights it is difficult to keep up. I was under the impression that Masterton lent money to Dunfermline and took security. It may have been he bought the stadium with a subsidiary and rented it back though. Never liked the man. I remember when I worked at BoS he did a presentation where he described branches as retail units and went on about the opportunity they presented. Short term asshole and generally horrible wee man.

[robinp]

I don't know how much he is owed. I did try to read about it last week, but it seemed horrendously complex. You're right, though, if he has security then he has no say in the CVA.

That said, do DAFC actually own EEP? I thought I had read that they don't.

My understanding is they don't, same goes for the training ground, held separate from the football club

[CropleyWasGod]

My understanding is they don't, same goes for the training ground, held separate from the football club

Cheers, thought I'd read that.

This may either be a very short administration, or a mightily difficult one.

[Peevemor]

My understanding is they don't, same goes for the training ground, held separate from the football club

Yup - I read last week that both were owned by another Masterton company.

[grunt]

PKF's Bryan Jackson appointed

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/dunfermline/219093-pfa-chief-and-dunfermline-boss-welcome-appointment-of-administrator-jackson/

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Falkirk just over 7/4 for tomorrows game, must be worth a wee punt! :confused:

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

I don't know how much he is owed. I did try to read about it last week, but it seemed horrendously complex. You're right, though, if he has security then he has no say in the CVA.

That said, do DAFC actually own EEP? I thought I had read that they don't.

#itsverycomplex

[CropleyWasGod]

PKF's Bryan Jackson appointed

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/dunfermline/219093-pfa-chief-and-dunfermline-boss-welcome-appointment-of-administrator-jackson/

Only on an interim basis apparently

[Spike Mandela]

Only on an interim basis apparently

Interim............the word of the season!:cb

[RCNG]

Anyone going to east end tonight?

[Hermit Crab]

Anyone going to east end tonight?

Yes I'm going up with my daughter. Will be wearing Hibs colours too. :-)

[Stonewall]

My understanding is they don't, same goes for the training ground, held separate from the football club

As far as I know they train at Pitrevie, which they certainly don't own.

[Kaiser1962]

Yup - I read last week that both were owned by another Masterton company.

Owned by East End Park Limited which is, like the football club, a subsidiary of Charlestown Holdings Limited.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Falkirk just over 7/4 for tomorrows game, must be worth a wee punt! :confused:

It was!

[Boydyhfc]

It was!

:agree:

Had them with QOS & Partick in a nice wee treble.

[lucky]

Less than 3000 there last night. I think the Pars are doomed. Not enough fans seem to care.

[blackpoolhibs]

Less than 3000 there last night. I think the Pars are doomed. Not enough fans seem to care.

Surely not less than 3000, i hope all you Hibs fans feel ashamed of yourselves?

[Beefster]

Less than 3000 there last night. I think the Pars are doomed. Not enough fans seem to care.

That's why I don't get Hibs fans spending money on Dunfermline when it could be spent on Hibs. If the regular support isn't there, why bother about saving them?

[blackpoolhibs]

That's why I don't get Hibs fans spending money on Dunfermline when it could be spent on Hibs. If the regular support isn't there, why bother about saving them?

:agree: And i have not seen one fairy cake baked, or jumble sale arranged?

[DaveF]

That's why I don't get Hibs fans spending money on Dunfermline when it could be spent on Hibs. If the regular support isn't there, why bother about saving them?

I don't really get it either. Fact is, they will stagger on like most other clubs 'in trouble' do.

Spike's post earlier in the thread summed it perfectly.

[KeithTheHibby]

Less than 3000 there last night. I think the Pars are doomed. Not enough fans seem to care.

Pathetic support, get all they deserve. No sympathy here when their own fans can't even be arsed attending when the club is in dire straits.

[MB62]

I have a certain amount of sympathy for Dunfermline as outside the obvious SPL clubs, they do have the potential of a good support. However, their support over they years has dimished to the extent of last nights' crowd. Given their present precarious position, you would have thought that every man and his dog would have been out in support for them but no.
They didn't help their own cause by the game from this Saturday to a cold Wednesday night, just to help Falkirk in their game against us, so serves them right :na na:

[#FromTheCapital]

I agree with people who say they don't deserve to be saved with such a low support when it is needed most. If most of their fans don't care then why should anyone else?

I do have a soft spot for Dunfermline though, always loved the away days there and of course they saved us from relegation last season :cb

[lord bunberry]

Surely not less than 3000, i hope all you Hibs fans feel ashamed of yourselves?

I was going to go but my boyfriend wouldn't let me

[blackpoolhibs]

I was going to go but my boyfriend wouldn't let me

:greengrin You are not saying you like the odd fairy cake are you?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Mr or Ms offended will be along soon!

[lord bunberry]

:greengrin You are not saying you like the odd fairy cake are you?

:greengrin

[Boyle89]

Pathetic support, get all they deserve. No sympathy here when their own fans can't even be arsed attending when the club is in dire straits.

Dunfermline isn't Edinburgh. It's not as big as some people seem to think it is. Factor in those that don't like football, those that support other teams (massive OF support in fife sadly) and those that couldn't attend and your not left with much. And for all this cup final fans stuff I go to dunfermline cup finals with my friends and so do alot of other neutrals.

[Moulin Yarns]

Less than 3000 there last night. I think the Pars are doomed. Not enough fans seem to care.

Pars v Bairns used to be a big game, 6000 minimum, so no idea where they all went.

[Spike Mandela]

Pars v Bairns used to be a big game, 6000 minimum, so no idea where they all went.

Both teams mid table, freezing cold, money is tight..........not really a surprising attendance is it?

[Spike Mandela]

“@jamiekborthwick: via @STVRaman STV understands Dunfermline boss Jim Jefferies has offered to work for free as players await cuts

“@jamiekborthwick: STV has also learned that Dunfermline will need external funding to survive the next few weeks http://t.co/I7NfwYNMvi”

“@jamiekborthwick: Meetings at EEP are ongoing through the day. Players are believed to be discovering their fate around 4pm. http://t.co/I7NfwYNMvi #DAFC”

[JimBHibees]

Both teams mid table, freezing cold, money is tight..........not really a surprising attendance is it?

It is when you consider one of the teams seems to be days from extinction.

[Baldy Foghorn]

It is when you consider one of the teams seems to be days from extinction.

Exactly, we have seen a rallying call for Hibs fans (and presumably other team's fans) to attend and try and help them out, and they get 3K for what I thought was a Derby match for them (I know Raith Rovers are nearer, but no love lost between Dunfermline & Falkirk), so there own fans seem to have given up the ghost....

[SteveHFC]

P.Gallacher, J.McMillan, A.Kirk, A.Dowie and S.Jordan among eight first team players made redundant by administrator Bryan Jackson.

Would take Gallacher at hibs for back up :aok:

[Onceinawhile]

P.Gallacher, J.McMillan, A.Kirk, A.Dowie and S.Jordan among eight first team players made redundant by administrator Bryan Jackson.

Would take Gallacher at hibs for back up :aok:

Jo cardle as well who seems to be highly rated (on here at least)

[Famous Fiver]

While I feel terrible sorry for these players made redundant ( I have suffered redundancy in the past) my thought is that if they could not afford them these players should not have been there in the first place. Dunfermline should have cut their coat according to their cloth long before an administrator came in and did it for them.

[J-C]

P.Gallacher, J.McMillan, A.Kirk, A.Dowie and S.Jordan among eight first team players made redundant by administrator Bryan Jackson.

Would take Gallacher at hibs for back up :aok:



McMillan could be a decent RB cover for Clancy, young and would be seen as a longer term option than Maybury.

[SteveHFC]

Dunfermline have made their highest-earning players redundant after applying to go into administration to avert being wound up. Interim administrator Bryan Jackson said talks were continuing but expected eight first-team players and three youth players to lose their jobs.
"We have a problem with the highest earners. We don't have the cash - it's just not there," Jackson said.
Jordan McMillan and Joe Cardle both confirmed they were among the cuts.

Cardle would be a good signing :aok:

[Bad Habits]

I think both Jordan McMillan and Joe Cardle would both be good signings, as someone above has said both players are fairly young, and if not good enough for the first team better than what we have on the bench

[HibeeMG]

While I feel terrible sorry for these players made redundant ( I have suffered redundancy in the past) my thought is that if they could not afford them these players should not have been there in the first place. Dunfermline should have cut their coat according to their cloth long before an administrator came in and did it for them.

Do you (and others) realise that Dunfermline's wages to turnover ratio was only 30% this year? That is extremely low. The problems they have are not because they are overspending on wages. Unfortunately they have to cut costs in every department and the players and staff will suffer because of it.

Also, out of the £8.5m worth of debt they have, £7.8m is "owed" to Masterton and his companies.

[bingo70]

Do you (and others) realise that Dunfermline's wages to turnover ratio was only 30% this year? That is extremely low. The problems they have are not because they are overspending on wages. Unfortunately they have to cut costs in every department and the players and staff will suffer because of it.

Also, out of the £8.5m worth of debt they have, £7.8m is "owed" to Masterton and his companies.

So masterton subsidized massive overspending in the past to the tune of almost 8 million? Of course that had to stop at some point.

Bet people weren't complaining when he was giving these loans, just a problem when they have to pay them back!

[essexhibee]

Feel sorry for the Pars fans. Hope they survive. :agree:

[HibeeMG]

So masterton subsidized massive overspending in the past to the tune of almost 8 million? Of course that had to stop at some point.

Bet people weren't complaining when he was giving these loans, just a problem when they have to pay them back!

And that's where the problem lies. Most people think the "loans" were to cover shortfalls.

He did loan the club money, yes.

The club do not own the stadium, he does. He has loans secured on the stadium. The club have been saddled with that debt.

It's like me mortgaging my mate's house and getting him to pay for it.

So the money he is "owed" is repayments on the loans on the stadium. The money from which the club haven't seen much of.

He's a crook, pure and simple.

Hopefully the administrator can straighten things out. RBS have said that the loans will be converted into a 30 year mortgage if the fans can take over the club. That will help enormously.

[Beefster]

Do you (and others) realise that Dunfermline's wages to turnover ratio was only 30% this year? That is extremely low. The problems they have are not because they are overspending on wages. Unfortunately they have to cut costs in every department and the players and staff will suffer because of it.

Also, out of the £8.5m worth of debt they have, £7.8m is "owed" to Masterton and his companies.

You keep flogging this particular dead horse. There is absolutely no doubt that Dunfermline have overspent on wages in the past. You can't just look at the last 12 months and say they haven't been overspending. They've been posting losses for a long time.

[Kaiser1962]

And that's where the problem lies. Most people think the "loans" were to cover shortfalls.

He did loan the club money, yes.

The club do not own the stadium, he does. He has loans secured on the stadium. The club have been saddled with that debt.

It's like me mortgaging my mate's house and getting him to pay for it.

So the money he is "owed" is repayments on the loans on the stadium. The money from which the club haven't seen much of.

He's a crook, pure and simple.

Hopefully the administrator can straighten things out. RBS have said that the loans will be converted into a 30 year mortgage if the fans can take over the club. That will help enormously.

He could be accused of being economical with the truth in his comments to the BBC on 21st February

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21536569

Dunfermline director Gavin Masterton maintains the First Division club is
"debt-free" but admits it is suffering from a "short-term cashflow crisis".

Just over a month later its in admin and facing liquidation. There are similarities to Hearts (and others) here in that they plod along for long enough giving the impression that #allisbarry and then when the noose tightens it all goes south quite quickly.

[Lang Toun Hibs]

He could be accused of being economical with the truth in his comments to the BBC on 21st February

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21536569

Dunfermline director Gavin Masterton maintains the First Division club is
"debt-free" but admits it is suffering from a "short-term cashflow crisis".

Just over a month later its in admin and facing liquidation. There are similarities to Hearts (and others) here in that they plod along for long enough giving the impression that #allisbarry and then when the noose tightens it all goes south quite quickly.

Exactly - of course in February they were about to try a share issue to raise funds so he wasn't going to say anything else at that time...now, can anyone else think of any club who have pulled a similar stunt recently? The name escapes me for the moment but may have been mentioned in the above post somewhere. #itsonlyamatteroftimebarry

[Part/Time Supporter]

And that's where the problem lies. Most people think the "loans" were to cover shortfalls.

He did loan the club money, yes.

The club do not own the stadium, he does. He has loans secured on the stadium. The club have been saddled with that debt.

It's like me mortgaging my mate's house and getting him to pay for it.

So the money he is "owed" is repayments on the loans on the stadium. The money from which the club haven't seen much of.

He's a crook, pure and simple.

Hopefully the administrator can straighten things out. RBS have said that the loans will be converted into a 30 year mortgage if the fans can take over the club. That will help enormously.

Except for having 3/4 of East End Park rebuilt to meet SPL criteria.

[HibeeMG]

You keep flogging this particular dead horse. There is absolutely no doubt that Dunfermline have overspent on wages in the past. You can't just look at the last 12 months and say they haven't been overspending. They've been posting losses for a long time.

There's a reason why I keep bringing this up and not highlighting their overspend on wages.

Most clubs have overspent on wages. If that was all Dunfermline had to deal with then I'm sure they'd cope with such a debt, just like most other clubs including our own.

The fact is that they are(were) shelling out more on repayments to Masterton than they were on staff and players wages.

And with wages to turnover being at 30% for the last two seasons they would have been profitable if not for those repayments.

[Kaiser1962]

Except for having 3/4 of East End Park rebuilt to meet SPL criteria.

Yip. Similar to Raith who redeveloped Starks Park to meet SPL criteria but they did it at the expense of their playing side.

This is where I feel that clubs like Dunfermline should face the consequences of their actions. As should others who do not run their clubs in a responsible manner which is quite sad because Dunfermline should be competing in the top division.

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder what sanctions the SFL will apply to 'help' Dunfermline. If it is the same as Dundee, and applied immediately, they will be 3 points adrift at the foot of the table. Th eSFL have already said there will beno advance on the prize money, it will be paid, as normal, at the end of May.

Well done the SFL :rolleyes:

[lord bunberry]

Except for having 3/4 of East End Park rebuilt to meet SPL criteria.

This is a bit confusing for me as I thought that john yorkston was the owner at the time of the ground redevelopment and the over spending on the players. Was masterton in charge during this period and if so what was yorkstons role

[Andy74]

There's a reason why I keep bringing this up and not highlighting their overspend on wages.

Most clubs have overspent on wages. If that was all Dunfermline had to deal with then I'm sure they'd cope with such a debt, just like most other clubs including our own.

The fact is that they are(were) shelling out more on repayments to Masterton than they were on staff and players wages.

And with wages to turnover being at 30% for the last two seasons they would have been profitable if not for those repayments.

Yeah but repayments were for money already spent.

[sambajustice]

I wonder what sanctions the SFL will apply to 'help' Dunfermline. If it is the same as Dundee, and applied immediately, they will be 3 points adrift at the foot of the table. Th eSFL have already said there will beno advance on the prize money, it will be paid, as normal, at the end of May.

Well done the SFL :rolleyes:

A "first" offence will only be 10 points deduction. Dundee got hit with 25 points because its was their 2nd administration in about 3 years!

Dunfermline were on 41 points so I think 31 keeps them above the play off spot. They may well fall in there though if they've lost most of their better players!

[18/03/07]

This is a bit confusing for me as I thought that john yorkston was the owner at the time of the ground redevelopment and the over spending on the players. Was masterton in charge during this period and if so what was yorkstons role

Yorkston is only a figure head ie chairman,he also pays for his hospatality box each year,he is a big pars fan and is gutted at what is happening

[Famous Fiver]

HibeeMG Are you telling me that some lunatic sanctioned outgoings where only 30% of turnover was spent on wages and the bulk went on debt repayments? How many years did this go on? How did the debt build up until it got to these levels? I thought Masterton was a hot shot banker. Did he oversee this? I go back to my original point. They have been paying players more than they can afford to pay and it has taken the administrator to come along and point out this simple truth to them. Masterton can't simply 'own the ground'. There must have been a journey towards this event. Did this include playing players they couldn't afford when they knocked us out in the Semi Final a couple of years ago? Hell mend them. I recall Brewster choosing the Pars over us because they were paying more. What planet were they on?

[Beefster]

There's a reason why I keep bringing this up and not highlighting their overspend on wages.

Most clubs have overspent on wages. If that was all Dunfermline had to deal with then I'm sure they'd cope with such a debt, just like most other clubs including our own.

The fact is that they are(were) shelling out more on repayments to Masterton than they were on staff and players wages.

And with wages to turnover being at 30% for the last two seasons they would have been profitable if not for those repayments.

That's the nature of having to take loans out. It has to be repaid.

[CropleyWasGod]

And that's where the problem lies. Most people think the "loans" were to cover shortfalls.

He did loan the club money, yes.

The club do not own the stadium, he does. He has loans secured on the stadium. The club have been saddled with that debt.

It's like me mortgaging my mate's house and getting him to pay for it.

So the money he is "owed" is repayments on the loans on the stadium. The money from which the club haven't seen much of.

He's a crook, pure and simple.

Hopefully the administrator can straighten things out. RBS have said that the loans will be converted into a 30 year mortgage if the fans can take over the club. That will help enormously.

Sorry, I thought they didn't own their ground.

How can they get a mortgage when they have no assets on which it can be secured?

[HibeeMG]

Sorry, I thought they didn't own their ground.

How can they get a mortgage when they have no assets on which it can be secured?

My understanding (I've just checked) is that they have offered that deal to whoever owns the ground.

With the ground being in the hands of one of Masterton's companies but the debt being held by the club, the hope is that the administrator will be able to get the ground back under the club's control.

This is just the debt for the land and stadium loan. There are other loans secured on the stadium that Masterton is liable for.

Even if Masterton keeps control of the stadium and takes up the mortgage offer, he will only receive rent from the club and not the inflated repayments he is currently getting.

Administration is probably the best way to sort out the tangled mess he has created.

[PatHead]

That's the nature of having to take loans out. It has to be repaid. Unless you owe it to yourselves.

[HibeeMG]

That's the nature of having to take loans out. It has to be repaid.

But that's the point. The club didn't have to take out those loans. Masterton took them out and a lot of that money didn't see it's way into the club.

[Prof. Shaggy]

Did this include playing players they couldn't afford when they knocked us out in the Semi Final a couple of years ago? Hell mend them.

Emm.....2007!

[CropleyWasGod]

My understanding (I've just checked) is that they have offered that deal to whoever owns the ground.

With the ground being in the hands of one of Masterton's companies but the debt being held by the club, the hope is that the administrator will be able to get the ground back under the club's control.

This is just the debt for the land and stadium loan. There are other loans secured on the stadium that Masterton is liable for.

Even if Masterton keeps control of the stadium and takes up the mortgage offer, he will only receive rent from the club and not the inflated repayments he is currently getting.

Administration is probably the best way to sort out the tangled mess he has created.

Given that Bryan Jackson is only in post on an interim basis, he may not have the time required.

[HibeeMG]

Given that Bryan Jackson is only in post on an interim basis, he may not have the time required.

Possibly not. The hope is that the courts will grant a full administration in April as it can be shown that there are currently two viable buyers of the club ready to move in and therefore liquidation would be the wrong choice.

Then he can get down to the bare bones.

[CropleyWasGod]

Possibly not. The hope is that the courts will grant a full administration in April as it can be shown that there are currently two viable buyers of the club ready to move in and therefore liquidation would be the wrong choice.

Then he can get down to the bare bones.

I hope so.

I used to work with Bryan, and he's one of the good guys in his field. It's not an easy job, and he is there to be shot at by those he has to disappoint (employees, creditors etc.), but I think he will come over more positively than the Rangers mob.

[Andy74]

But that's the point. The club didn't have to take out those loans. Masterton took them out and a lot of that money didn't see it's way into the club.

Are you suggesting that Masterton arranged loans through the football club that he then took out of the club and used personally?

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Jordan McMillan had signed for Partick Thistle.

[HibeeMG]

I hope so.

I used to work with Bryan, and he's one of the good guys in his field. It's not an easy job, and he is there to be shot at by those he has to disappoint (employees, creditors etc.), but I think he will come over more positively than the Rangers mob.

I've heard good things about him and that people in and around the club are very happy with his appointment.

He has a bit of free reign given there is only one villian of the piece in Masterton. The cuts he has made so far have been greeted with acceptance but with the hope that he will be as ruthless when it comes to working out the financial make-up of the club and Masterton's companies.

[HibeeMG]

Are you suggesting that Masterton arranged loans through the football club that he then took out of the club and used personally?

That is the suggestion, yes. Personally might be stretching it but more than likely to finance his other companies, allegedly.

The theory is that the working group were reticent to take over the debt for this reason and Masterton would've been left potless if he wrote it off. He may well end up that way anyway.

[jdships]

Questions need to be asked of those running football clubs that get into financial difficulties .
Are they fit persons to do just that ?
What constitutes a 'fit person ' ?
If you or I want to start a business we have to submit a ' business plan' to the bank before we would be granted a loan/credit
The majority of clubs who fail do so because of many years of living beyond their means , it is not something that happens overnight
What drives a so called business man to continue spending money he doesn't have in order to gain success ?

Surely after the Rankers farce there must be long hard look at how clubs run their businesses !!
:confused:

[Saorsa]

Questions need to be asked of those running football clubs that get into financial difficulties .
Are they fit persons to do just that ?
What constitutes a 'fit person ' ?
If you or I want to start a business we have to submit a ' business plan' to the bank before we would be granted a loan/credit
The majority of clubs who fail do so because of many years of living beyond their means , it is not something that happens overnight
What drives a so called business man to continue spending money he doesn't have in order to gain success ?

Surely after the Rankers farce there must be long hard look at how clubs run their businesses !!
:confused:Well if that roaster Green is an example of who constitiutes such a thing it disnae say much for the SFA's so called test and it's just so much hot air fae the SFA again.

[HibeeMG]

Questions need to be asked of those running football clubs that get into financial difficulties .
Are they fit persons to do just that ?
What constitutes a 'fit person ' ?
If you or I want to start a business we have to submit a ' business plan' to the bank before we would be granted a loan/credit
The majority of clubs who fail do so because of many years of living beyond their means , it is not something that happens overnight
What drives a so called business man to continue spending money he doesn't have in order to gain success ?

Surely after the Rankers farce there must be long hard look at how clubs run their businesses !!
:confused:

I agree.

Remember, Gavin Masterton is the same person who agreed the bank loans to David Murray that got Old Rangers into bother in the first place.

[jdships]

I agree.

Remember, Gavin Masterton is the same person who agreed the bank loans to David Murray that got Old Rangers into bother in the first place.

Desperate Dan
Well if that roaster Green is an example of who constitiutes such a thing it disnae say much for the SFA's so called test and it's just so much hot air fae the SFA again.


Agree totally with what you both write :top marks

I have a friend who is a director of a third division club and he and his fellow directors are ' subsidising' that club from their own pockets to make sure they do not incur any more debt.
They plan to cut playing staff numbers next season along with reducing other expenses .
They heard the warning bells in early 2012 and set about trying to put their house in order , financially , while attempting to live within their means
:thumbsup:

[Kaiser1962]

And with wages to turnover being at 30% for the last two seasons they would have been profitable if not for those repayments.

I've not seen any figures for last season (2011-2012) but wages to turnover for season 2010-2011 was 72.5% ; 2009-2010 was 98.7%; 2008-2009 was 85.9%; 2007-2008 was 121.9%; 2006-2007 was 64.8%. They were relegated in 2007 and that was also the last season they were profitable. It may be that relegation meant that players contracts were running on at SPL rates whilst playing in division 1.

[Kaiser1962]

I have a friend who is a director of a third division club and he and his fellow directors are ' subsidising' that club from their own pockets to make sure they do not incur any more debt.



I'll go first......................Is it Charles Green? :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

I have a friend who is a director of a third division club and he and his fellow directors are ' subsidising' that club from their own pockets to make sure they do not incur any more debt.
They plan to cut playing staff numbers next season along with reducing other expenses .
They heard the warning bells in early 2012 and set about trying to put their house in order , financially , while attempting to live within their means
:thumbsup:[/QUOTE]
That can't be true. Didn't Rangers ride to the rescue of all these supposed diddy clubs with their army of fans filling their grounds and make them all super wealthy. I'm sure that is what has been reported and mentioned more than once by Ally and Chuckie

[Beefster]

But that's the point. The club didn't have to take out those loans. Masterton took them out and a lot of that money didn't see it's way into the club.

Given the fact that Dunfermline have redeveloped their stadium, substantially overpaid players for years and made losses for a long time (£1.5m in the last two announced years), I find that very hard to believe. According to you, wages decreased from £1.7m in 2010/11 to somewhere around £800k in 2011/12 - again, I find that incredibly hard to believe. I'm not trying to be an erse but you've made a few statements in this thread that have proven to be wrong.

Some Hibs fans have accused STF, at various times, of profiting massively from the club (and some Hearts fans still do). Doesn't mean that it's true.

[weecounty hibby]

I hope DAFC survive but if they don't then sorry but it is survival of the fittest. They have been in terminal decline for years and are now at the stage where they can't get over 3000 fans for what is historically their biggest game of the season versus Falkirk. Also their club needs them and their cash and where are they? Stuck at their PCs asking for help from every other clubs supporters?

If they go pop and are followed by a few others then maybe we can look at how Scottish football is run and structured and make it better with well run well organised teams that are self sufficient are are not reliant on the OF teams coming to town twice a season.

My home town team is a great example of how clubs should be run. Alloa may never be world beaters but I don't think, hope I'm not tempting fate here, that they are at any risk of going out of business. A well run community club that has a thriving sports set up for the local area. They are only a division below DAFC and get about 600 of a crowd which is not that much below East End attendances recently.
So why should anyone bother if DAFC go tits up, badly run, poor financial state, no crowds to speak of. There are probably Junior and East of Scotland Senior clubs who attract a similar attendance to them and are on a stronger financial footing that could easily take their place in the SFL

I have said it before but they need to help themselves, as we have done in the past, before anyone else will help them.

[MrSmith]

Too many bloody glory hunters nowadays! Loads of OF buses leaving central to east Scotland much to regularly which, in my view, is a huge part of the problem for local clubs.

[SJNB Hibby]

Too many bloody glory hunters nowadays! Loads of OF buses leaving central to east Scotland much to regularly which, in my view, is a huge part of the problem for local clubs.

That'll never change. I remember dad and me going thru to Ibrox for a Hibs game in '68---I couldn't understand why we kept seeing buses full of rangers supporters going in the same direction

Mind you, if they start to get bogged down in their climb thru the leagues, and I doubt this year if they'd have got out of Div 1, a few 'fans' might start to pay more attention to their more succesful local teams

[ballengeich]

That's the nature of having to take loans out. It has to be repaid.

You won't be sitting on any first tier tax tribunals if that's what you believe.

[Jonnyboy]

Apologies if already posted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21977921

[H18sry]

Dunfermline hit with 15 point deduction. For going into administration, In the event of a CVA not being approved by the start of next season, Dunfermline will face a further 10 point deduction. Dunfermline also hit with player registration embargo for players over the age of 21.

[Golden Bear]

As things stand, the immediate points deduction places the Pars in one of the play off positions.

[JimBHibees]

Dunfermline hit with 15 point deduction. For going into administration, In the event of a CVA not being approved by the start of next season, Dunfermline will face a further 10 point deduction. Dunfermline also hit with player registration embargo for players over the age of 21.

Thats them on 27 and two points behind Cowdenbeath fighting to avoid the play offs. They play Cowden in the next few weeks so will be tight assuming they survive at all.

[cabbageandribs1875]

puts them 2nd bottom two point behind cowdenbeath, even more importance for their upcoming derby with them on the 19th april

[Beefster]

Could have been worse for them.

[IWasThere2016]

Seems a fair punishment IMHO.

[Aldo]

Fair do's. hopefully another team not so far away will suffer a similar if note worse fate however Watch this space... As soon as the yams make it mathematically impossible to be relegated the will go into Admin.

[LancsHibs]

Fair do's. hopefully another team not so far away will suffer a similar if note worse fate however Watch this space... As soon as the yams make it mathematically impossible to be relegated the will go into Admin.

If that's the case points deduction should be carried over to next season:grr:

[Aldo]

If that's the case points deduction should be carried over to next season:grr:

You would think... Hopefully the SPL will not be fooled.

[Ken]

Imagine Hearts did go into administration and Hibs v Dundee was the deciding game??

[fat freddy]

Imagine Hearts did go into administration and Hibs v Dundee was the deciding game??

it would be a good opportunity for pat to rest the entire first team and allow a few youngsters some game time..

[CropleyWasGod]

If that's the case points deduction should be carried over to next season:grr:

Don't see why. Everyone knows the rules at the start of the season. They're entitled to play to them.

Besides, as I've said before, I reckon administration for Hearts would be very short. It would be full speed ahead to liquidation very quickly.

[EdinMike]

Even though they are on a wee bit of a bad spell, it looks likely that Murray will keep Dumbarton in the league hopefully then ! :aok: :flag:

[Keith_M]

It seems fair enough, other than the fact that there seems to be no set rule as to what the punishment is for going in to Admin. The SFL really should get this sorted, so that the rules and punishments are the same for every club.

[lord bunberry]

Fat Jim's no happy, that makes me happy

[Keith_M]

Fat Jim's no happy, that makes me happy


He said it's unfair, as it's not the players fault. Eh, I don't actually think that's the point Jim.


I remember Dunfermline spending a few years in the 2nd Division (when it was Premier, 1st & 2nd) and they eventually made their way back up the leagues. It's not the worst thing that could happen to them.They might even get two home games against the Rangers tribute act next year, which could help financially.

[Steve-O]

He said it's unfair, as it's not the players fault. Eh, I don't actually think that's the point Jim.


I remember Dunfermline spending a few years in the 2nd Division (when it was Premier, 1st & 2nd) and they eventually made their way back up the leagues. It's not the worst thing that could happen to them.They might even get two home games against the Rangers tribute act next year, which could help financially.

Sounds like the sort of crud that Rangers came out with.

It's no the players (who were getting paid fortunes) fault we've gone bust! It's no the fans (who demanded big money was spent) fault we've went bust. It's no the manager's fault etc etc.

The buck has to stop somewhere, regardless!

[CropleyWasGod]

Full administration now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22106622

[weonlywon6-2]

Imagine Hearts did go into administration and Hibs v Dundee was the deciding game??

That would be the only time when a hibs loss would be accepted...................and cheered:greengrin


Can you imagine the team we would put out!!!!!

[Sylar]

According to Chris McLaughlin on Twitter, Dunfermline are about to go pop:

Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug 10m
Bryan Jackson also tells BBC that plug likely to be pulled on Dunfermline tomorrow if CVA doesn't go through - no plan B.

Disastrous day for Scottish Football really...

[bingo70]

According to Chris McLaughlin on Twitter, Dunfermline are about to go pop:

Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug 10m
Bryan Jackson also tells BBC that plug likely to be pulled on Dunfermline tomorrow if CVA doesn't go through - no plan B.

Disastrous day for Scottish Football really...

He says in a later tweet though that they expect the CVA to go through so liquidation is unlikely.

[Sylar]

He says in a later tweet though that they expect the CVA to go through so liquidation is unlikely.

Ah, my bad - I came across the story second hand via someone on Facebook so didn't get this directly from Twitter. :aok:

[PatHead]

Why should Dunfermline be given any sympathy if they did the same as Hearts on a smaller scale? Have no sympathy whatsoever. If they had played fair we would have got another cup final, would not have stolen Craig Brewster, Stevie Crawford. They did it for years. Hope they die for cheating.

[Jones28]

I don't have sympathy for Dunfermline as a club, but for the fans. At the end of the day they don't control the finances.

Hearts are a different matter, they as a club and their supporters have been ********s throughout this saga.

[Waxy]

These clubs Dunfermline and Hearts, do not feel sorry for them.
They have had their chance but could not keep up with the way modern businesses had to be run.
They have to pay the price.
Dunfermline as a good sized town there is always the chance they could form another team in the town.
The decent support they have should ensure they will.
The yams well we don't give a sh$% bout them but the same will go.
They will start from scratch and probably get back to be a small Edinburgh club in around 15 years
in the championship/league one area.
They brought it on themselves.
It's not a bad day for Scottish football.
It would be a bad day if they'd got away with their overspending.

[SHODAN]

If the CVA goes through is that them in League Two?

[BigKev]

If the CVA goes through is that them in League Two?

They're in League 2 anyway - Alloa tucked them away in the play off.

I want the Pars to survive - decent club and fans.

Majority of the money owed is to a director of the club - they've not been ripping off Governments at home or abroad.

[Sir David Gray]

They're in League 2 anyway - Alloa tucked them away in the play off.

I want the Pars to survive - decent club and fans.

Majority of the money owed is to a director of the club - they've not been ripping off Governments at home or abroad.

They're in League One at the moment.

Remember that League One is the old Divison Two.

Alloa's now in the Championship, the old Division One.

Confused? You should be.

:wink:

[jgl07]

They're in League One at the moment.

Remember that League One is the old Divison Two.

Alloa's now in the Championship, the old Division One.

Confused? You should be.

:wink:

Dunfermline could get a reprieve from relegation and stay in the 'Championship' if Hearts are liquidated soon!

[Kaiser1962]

They appear to be hoping the creditors accept a CVA of 0p in the £. They have proposed a CVA for agreement of the creditoors whereby they get not a penny. They are expecting them to accept.

[Onceinawhile]

If the CVA goes through dunfermline stay where they are, exit admin and start the season.

If it doesn't they become just like third lanark.

[AndyM_1875]

Dunfermline's stadium is owned by a different company from the football club.

As for Masterton, much of the mess is his fault and being offered 0p in the CVA is generous considering his stewardship of the Pars.

[IWasThere2016]

What a mess!

[Waxy]

Dunfy survive. CVA accepted

[Bristolhibby]

Dunfy survive. CVA accepted

Its funny, Im actually pleased about this one, but want Hearts to go the other way (Liquidated).

Weird no?

J

[Gatecrasher]

Dunfy survive. CVA accepted

Good for them.

[CropleyWasGod]

Good for them.

Crap for the ordinary creditors, though, who got nothing.

[robinp]

Crap for the ordinary creditors, though, who got nothing.

They were getting nothing either way.

[Sean1875]

Glad to hear it, would be a sad day for Scottish Football if the Pars were to go pop :agree: Although as its already been said, an exact opposite situation for our maroon neighbours please :aok:

[Bishop Hibee]

Dunfy support has withered away over the last 20 years. My brother teaches over there and complains the place is full of rantic fans. Big rebuild needed.

[jonty]

10733

[PatHead]

Whilst I do have an element of sympathy for the fans I also sympathise with other well run junior and senior clubs like Spartans who can't get into leagues because they have been blocked by clubs who have cheated and gone into administration. Over the past 10 years I can think of Dunfermline, Motherwell, Dundee, Hearts, Morton, Livingston who have gone into administration. Clydebank, Airdrie, Gretna and Rangers now no longer exist in their old form. From a league structure of 42 clubs it is far too high a percentage. The SFA are failing by not getting to grips with this.

[AndyM_1875]

Crap for the ordinary creditors, though, who got nothing.

The overwhelming bulk of the debt was owed to Gavin Masterton, the guy who had made an utter pigs ear of the Dunfermline situation in the first place.
He's obviously accepted he made a total erse of it and held his hands up allowing the CVA and the club to move on.

[PatHead]

The overwhelming bulk of the debt was owed to Gavin Masterton, the guy who had made an utter pigs ear of the Dunfermline situation in the first place.
He's obviously accepted he made a total erse of it and held his hands up allowing the CVA and the club to move on.

Thought he still owned the ground so will still benefit in one way or other? The other creditors who would likely be either small companies or local authority, electrical companies, police etc. Doubt they had enough votes to take them down.

[Dashing Bob S]

What did THEY do in the war?

[Wing Half]

Kept the Home Fleet afloat

[Keith_M]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/dunfermline-to-exit-administration-as-cva-agreed-1-3020987

[Spike Mandela]

http://sport.stv.tv/242611-dunfermline-athletic-facing-fresh-threat-of-liquidation-after-indictment/

[DaveF]

I don't understand that at all?

BDO looking to cancel lease of training ground, but former owner say's he wants to buy it and is taking BDO (the club) to court over it?

[Spike Mandela]

Read in the Metro that the Pars foundation (or whatever they are called) don't want saddled with maintenace costs.

[DaveF]

Read in the Metro that the Pars foundation (or whatever they are called) don't want saddeled with maintenace costs.

I still don't get it though. Masterton no longer owns the club so if the club want to cancel the lease and he wants to buy the site, then what's the problem?

[Keith_M]

I still don't get it though. Masterton no longer owns the club so if the club want to cancel the lease and he wants to buy the site, then what's the problem?


I'm confused as well, the 'article' made no sense to me.

[Part/Time Supporter]

From looking at the articles in other sources, I guess the dispute is that the club wants out of this lease due to its cost, but Masterton would either have to take that cost or buy the site and wants the club to keep using the site. I would think that this story has been publicised now because BDO and/or the fans group want some pressure to come on Masterton to do a deal before it comes to court.

The risk of liquidation seems a bit theoretical. Masterton has already allowed a CVA to pass that he could have blocked. He would have to get a court ruling in this case in his favour and then enforce it to cause liquidation now.

[Spike Mandela]

From looking at the articles in other sources, I guess the dispute is that the club wants out of this lease due to its cost, but Masterton would either have to take that cost or buy the site and wants the club to keep using the site. I would think that this story has been publicised now because BDO and/or the fans group want some pressure to come on Masterton to do a deal before it comes to court.

The risk of liquidation seems a bit theoretical. Masterton has already allowed a CVA to pass that he could have blocked. He would have to get a court ruling in this case in his favour and then enforce it to cause liquidation now.

In the Metro it was Bryan Jackson that said he would be forced to liquidate if a deal wasn't done.

Seems a tried and tested method with BDO using the media to force people's hands as in the case of Heriot Watt and the Council car park issue with Hearts. Must be wearying spending your days begging, cajoling and blackmailing people to get something for nothing all the time.:cb

[jonty]

The only reason Dunfermline haven't been liquidated today is because one of the Administrators is in London.
Could it be terminal this time?

[Ozyhibby]

Just won their court case.

[jgl07]

The only reason Dunfermline haven't been liquidated today is because one of the Administrators is in London.
Could it be terminal this time?

Where was he at? Terminal 5 Heathrow?

[Deansy]

Just won their court case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24497991


Delighted - don't know the in's and out's with Dunfermline but Masterton, along with Davd 'I woz duped' Murray, Fred Goodwin (and other 'Businessmen') are all what's wrong with our game ........... and justice-system.

http://www.ianfraser.org/gavin-masterton-and-the-riddle-of-charlotte-18/

http://www.ianfraser.org/revealed-the-hornet-and-the-sting-which-are-stopping-us-learning-the-truth-about-the-collapse-of-hbos/

[ancient hibee]

I've known Gavin Masterton for a long time-he's been a Dunfermline fanatic all his life.He's the prime example of why a football club shouldn't be run by a fan.He forgot about running it as a business and poured money in instead of walking away.As a result he's lost about £5million and a so called supporter spits in his granddaughters face in the street.

[DaveF]

Football club 'on the brink' win a last gasp court case.

I'm shocked :rolleyes: