Should we close the Youth Academy?

[PatHead]

Over the last few years we have not developed the "conveyor belt" of talent we did at the end of last century/beginning of this. Aberdeen are bemoaning the fact that their youngsters can walk away for sweeties to England so the days of decent fees for youngsters appears to have passed. Make no mistake the fees we have received for youngsters have helped keep Hibs going over the last few years and kept us in the black most years.

Looking at our competitors- St Johnstone don't have an academy, other than Jamie Murphy Motherwell seem to be getting more youngsters on loan from English clubs than developing their own, Dundee United seem to develop players such as Russell, Mackay-Steven, Gunning which they have picked up from lower division clubs or ex English Premiership who didn't make the grade. We did that with Bamba but I can't think of many others we benefitted from taking that route.

According to Dunfermline their academy costs them £200,000pa. I would expect ours to cost much more than that. Would we not be better investing this money in the first team, trying to sign better quality players and benefitting from the extra prize money and gates a winning team would produce?

The more I think about it our business model is maybe in need of review. Anyone else think differently?

[KanyeWestLower]

To answer the question... No

[Mikey]

The last figure I heard for ours was £500k a year to run it, however I reckon that'll have been trimmed to the bone just like many other things have at the club. Still, I'd guess it's in the region of a £350k a year operation for the facility as a whole.

There's a decent argument for making big changes given the lack of sellable assets coming through.

[truehibernian]

Over the last few years we have not developed the "conveyor belt" of talent we did at the end of last century/beginning of this. Aberdeen are bemoaning the fact that their youngsters can walk away for sweeties to England so the days of decent fees for youngsters appears to have passed. Make no mistake the fees we have received for youngsters have helped keep Hibs going over the last few years and kept us in the black most years.

Looking at our competitors- St Johnstone don't have an academy, other than Jamie Murphy Motherwell seem to be getting more youngsters on loan from English clubs than developing their own, Dundee United seem to develop players such as Russell, Mackay-Steven, Gunning which they have picked up from lower division clubs or ex English Premiership who didn't make the grade. We did that with Bamba but I can't think of many others we benefitted from taking that route.

According to Dunfermline their academy costs them £200,000pa. I would expect ours to cost much more than that. Would we not be better investing this money in the first team, trying to sign better quality players and benefitting from the extra prize money and gates a winning team would produce?

The more I think about it our business model is maybe in need of review. Anyone else think differently?

I don't know if you can, but listen to yesterday's Keys and Gray on Talksport and the interview with Crewe's Dario Gradi - that should answer your question PH.

Far from closing them, we should be investing in them properly in my opinion, and casting the scouting wider - admittedly Hibs have to start showing a little bit more faith in the youngsters in my opinion - but after seasons of mediocrity, numerous managers coming in, and players yoyo-ing in and out of Easter Road, that may come with some stability in management.

Scotland youth trials are soon and sadly there is not a good Hibs showing for them (in numbers)

[Andy74]

It's a fair question if you think the end result we all want is to win football matches. I personally don't care if that's done with local kids, 30 year olds or loans.

The question is whether this is a cost effective way to produce your own players and maybe more income down the line to get better players.

Right now even knowing its a long term thing I think it's fair to question whether other policies like investing in the here and now on an ongoing basis could work better.

[bingo70]

I think youth teams in Scotland needs revolutionized to make it better not abandoned, what needs done I'm not sure but we need to be taking leads from the likes of Germany, Spain, Belgium and Iceland although I think in fairness mark wotte has started on this but it'll take years for us to find out if he's any good.

The lack of indoor facilities concern me though, that should have been addressed years ago.

[Russell The Dug]

Have we ever replaced John Park? No point in having an academy without the right people there to spot players coming through - there is obviously talent in Edinburgh as is shown with the players hertz are brining through just now! How come we haven't got a hold of any of them?

[Golden Bear]

The last figure I heard for ours was £500k a year to run it, however I reckon that'll have been trimmed to the bone just like many other things have at the club. Still, I'd guess it's in the region of a £350k a year operation for the facility as a whole.

There's a decent argument for making big changes given the lack of sellable assets coming through.

:agree:

Although hopefully the lack of academy players breaking through into the first team squad is only a temporary blip.

[Peevemor]

The last figure I heard for ours was £500k a year to run it, however I reckon that'll have been trimmed to the bone just like many other things have at the club. Still, I'd guess it's in the region of a £350k a year operation for the facility as a whole.

There's a decent argument for making big changes given the lack of sellable assets coming through.

Are you speaking about the "academy" or East Mains as a whole.

In any case, if and when we eventually bring through a youngster that we sell on for say £2m, then that covers the costs for between 4-6 years.

[superfurryhibby]

My initial thoughts were no way, we need to maintain the academy. Second thoughts are not that well considered but the lack of output over the past six -seven years makes me wonder. Beyond the clutch of players that emerged under Blobby and flowered under Mowbray, our youth policy seems to have been fairly poor in terms of return.

The current youth development leagues run by pro clubs appear not to have improved the quality of player emerging in the Scottish game. What is certain is that costs have risen enormously for clubs who have a plethora of staff working with youth development.

In the old days laddies played for boys clubs until 16 and then signed on with clubs as apprentice pros. Clubs like HIbs signed guys as "s forms" and had them along to ER for training once a week or so. I do find it ridiculous that clubs "find" boys as young as eight, nine or ten. Maybe it's too late to reverse on some aspects of this "progress" but review of how youth development functions seems legitimate to me

[Andy74]

:agree:

Although hopefully the lack of academy players breaking through into the first team squad is only a temporary blip.

We don't lack numbers breaking into the squad or first team. Quality is another matter though.

[--------]

I don't know if you can, but listen to yesterday's Keys and Gray on Talksport and the interview with Crewe's Dario Gradi - that should answer your question PH.

Far from closing them, we should be investing in them properly in my opinion, and casting the scouting wider - admittedly Hibs have to start showing a little bit more faith in the youngsters in my opinion - but after seasons of mediocrity, numerous managers coming in, and players yoyo-ing in and out of Easter Road, that may come with some stability in management.

Scotland youth trials are soon and sadly there is not a good Hibs showing for them (in numbers)


That's my view - I heard the discussion on Talksport and totally agree - clubs the size of Hibs need to develop their own talent as a matter of priority. I have no argument with the concept of a youth academy; I'm not convinced that Hibs have done anything more than pay lip-service to that concept since the departure of John Park.

[Keith_M]

Have we ever replaced John Park? No point in having an academy without the right people there to spot players coming through - there is obviously talent in Edinburgh as is shown with the players hertz are brining through just now! How come we haven't got a hold of any of them?


Really? Like who?


I know some Hearts fans have described the current crop as something special but they're only making an appearance in the 1st team because there's no one else, not because they're some new 'Golden Generation'.

[Golden Bear]

We don't lack numbers breaking into the squad or first team. Quality is another matter though.

Really?

The occasional 15mins appearance from the bench by two or three players hardly constitutes a flood of players ready to make a permanent break through

[Jim44]

If they were considering establishing a youth academy today, I think I would be reluctant to support it. The fact that it's now a part of the club and, arguably, considered an asset, it's sale or abandonment would be seen as a retrograde step by the club.

[Andy74]

That's my view - I heard the discussion on Talksport and totally agree - clubs the size of Hibs need to develop their own talent as a matter of priority. I have no argument with the concept of a youth academy; I'm not convinced that Hibs have done anything more than pay lip-service to that concept since the departure of John Park.

Taking a step back why do we need to? If we can sustain a first team by other means what is the issue? Genuine question which I'm not as clear on as I was. Football has changed. You can get quality loans or frees if you look in the right place now and that can work long term. You can even pick ones up that you can sell on. The likes of Murphy, Shiels, sproule, Bamba etc as examples.

[Golden Bear]

If they were considering establishing a youth academy today, I think I would be reluctant to support it. The fact that it's now a part of the club and, arguably, considered an asset, it's sale or abandonment would be seen as a retrograde step by the club.

Spot on Jim.

[Thecat23]

If Hibs actually took it seriously and not run it as poorly as it is then it would benefit us. For all it's worth just now it wouldn't matter a jot if it closed. Hearts youth set up is far superior than ours. That may not be what you want to hear but they have good coaches and they scout all the good young players. We are lacking in that department badly.

[Keith_M]

Scottish football is going backwards with very little decent talent being produced. Players are coming through nowadays lacking in some of the basic football skills. Meanwhile, other countries, many as small as ours, are getting it right and bringing on a regular crop of decent players and getting further ahead of Scotland in the international rankings.

If our Academy isn't bringing through decent young players, surely the answer is not to close it down but to examine what we're doing wrong and others are doing right? It's an incredibly Myopic view that considers investing less in young players, considering the current situation of football talent in this country.

[Golden Bear]

If Hibs actually took it seriously and not run it as poorly as it is then it would benefit us. For all it's worth just now it wouldn't matter a jot if it closed. Hearts youth set up is far superior than ours. That may not be what you want to hear but they have good coaches and they scout all the good young players. We are lacking in that department badly.

I've never been someone who criticises the Board, but I'm starting to wonder if their finger is really on the pulse on the football side of things. (which I suppose is important for a football club:wink:)

[bingo70]

If Hibs actually took it seriously and not run it as poorly as it is then it would benefit us. For all it's worth just now it wouldn't matter a jot if it closed. Hearts youth set up is far superior than ours. That may not be what you want to hear but they have good coaches and they scout all the good young players. We are lacking in that department badly.

I believe that is the case but I've also heard hearts are vastly over spending in this department as well and offering big wages to young players to get them to join them.

That said all it takes is to produce one or two players for it to be paid for so maybe it makes sense to over spend on this department but not overspend on the first team?

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

Is location a factor? I guess the academy is based in east mains. Perhaps easier getting to herriot watt than our place.

Could we use the academy to host games for juvenile leagues. That way bring the talent to our door rather than sending scouts all over the place.

[Mac]

I do despair sometimes, does anyoen actually know how much the facility generates?

[bingo70]

I do despair sometimes, does anyoen actually know how much the facility generates?

No, do you?

[Thecat23]

I believe that is the case but I've also heard hearts are vastly over spending in this department as well and offering big wages to young players to get them to join them.

That said all it takes is to produce one or two players for it to be paid for so maybe it makes sense to over spend on this department but not overspend on the first team?

I know a few lads at hearts and none are on great money. I know 3 of them who support Hibs but after training with both last year chose Hearts as they thought that's where they had the best chance. Also the training at Hibs was a shambles. It's sad because we have the foundations there we now need good scouts at that level and to take it seriously. Maybe if they do we will have more players like the Browns, Whitty's, Thomsons! That is one thing I fully blame out board for.

[Ray_]

I believe that is the case but I've also heard hearts are vastly over spending in this department as well and offering big wages to young players to get them to join them.

That said all it takes is to produce one or two players for it to be paid for so maybe it makes sense to over spend on this department but not overspend on the first team?

The sales of Miller, Riordan, Thomson, Whitaker, Brown and Fletcher will easily have covered costs [and more] over the last fifteen years and the club benefited through their appearance in the first team. We need to get better at identifying and signing the youngsters, but IMHO it would be self defeating to abandon it because of the recent past.

[ahibby]

This is a good debate. My initial thought on the matter was yes of course it of continue. We don't have the talent that was John Park in that department and as expected Celtic's improved with him on board. Hearts recognised that hard times were ahead and had to improve theirs. As a result both of those clubs who trailed us in that department now head us. Yes it comes at a cost and it appears that lower division clubs benefit from our academy as our youngsters go out on loan to them. I'm sure we can all think of a few names of lads who have come through the academy in the past couple of years who have given a glimmer of potential. I think we should keep it.

[Mikey]

I know a few lads at hearts and none are on great money.

I think one problem in recent years is that Hibs won't spend any money on young players so it's been relatively easy for Hearts to hoover them up by offering something.

And as for Hearts being miles ahead of us, check out the U20's league table :greengrin

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s60

[Mikey]

Are you speaking about the "academy" or East Mains as a whole.

In any case, if and when we eventually bring through a youngster that we sell on for say £2m, then that covers the costs for between 4-6 years.

The whole thing.

And yes, one sale would cover the cost for a few years.

And also help cover the cost of the lost season tickets as a result of people not going back because of Petrie selling the family silver for the first offer. Again :wink:

[bingo70]

I know a few lads at hearts and none are on great money. I know 3 of them who support Hibs but after training with both last year chose Hearts as they thought that's where they had the best chance. Also the training at Hibs was a shambles. It's sad because we have the foundations there we now need good scouts at that level and to take it seriously. Maybe if they do we will have more players like the Browns, Whitty's, Thomsons! That is one thing I fully blame out board for.

Yeah, one of my best mates kis plays for hearts and he was brought up a hibby and still goes to the games when he's no playing for them but he was telling me that "hearts are far better at every level", don't know if that's actually true or if hearts brainwash there youngsters into believing that from a young age but either way right now they seem to have a head start on us just now.

[RyeSloan]

Scottish football is going backwards with very little decent talent being produced. Players are coming through nowadays lacking in some of the basic football skills. Meanwhile, other countries, many as small as ours, are getting it right and bringing on a regular crop of decent players and getting further ahead of Scotland in the international rankings.

If our Academy isn't bringing through decent young players, surely the answer is not to close it down but to examine what we're doing wrong and others are doing right? It's an incredibly Myopic view that considers investing less in young players, considering the current situation of football talent in this country.


Really? What makes you say that and compared to youngsters from what era are you comparing them to?

I think it's also important to realise how hard it is to find and develop multi million pound footballers. The price tag of these players would indicate they are quite rare otherwise why would someone pay millions for them?

Of the 16 players in the squad for the St Mirren game there was 6 players that could probalby be described as coming from the hibs development system (Hanlon, Stevenson, Spoony, Handling, Caldwell, Forster). So as good as 40% of the match day squad was 'home grown' players. I totally understand that these guys are maybe not considered starts of the team (although Hanlon has surely been underrated by Hibs fans for too long) but none the less they are considered good enough to be in it.

I agree with your last paragraph though........instead of saying close it and move on we should be re-doubling our efforts to be doing better..it is however not just down to Hibs. A step change in coaching, facilities and apporach across the board in youth football would support the senior clubs efforts substantially. There has been a number of initiatives and changes but from the limited expeosure I have it would seem these have not yet led to the transformation required.

Was down Leith Links recently and saw some youth football..I think it was Hutchie Vale (Yellow and Black stripes?)...while one or two boys stood out (the centre half in particular looked very good) and there was occasional outbreaks of passing football the general quaility of the football was low. Very frequent exchange of possesion and a tendancy for both sides to fire it forward as soon as possible. Was only one game and I suppose it's tough to play samba style on a baltic day down the links but none the less it hardly filled me with confidence that grass roots football is properly embracing the skills/passing approach over the whack it forward and run after it apporach

[Scouse Hibee]

Really? Like who?


I know some Hearts fans have described the current crop as something special but they're only making an appearance in the 1st team because there's no one else, not because they're some new 'Golden Generation'.

Jamie Walker is one, into the team on merit and nowt to do with there being no-one else.

[Ray_]

I think one problem in recent years is that Hibs won't spend any money on young players so it's been relatively easy for Hearts to hoover them up by offering something.

And as for Hearts being miles ahead of us, check out the U20's league table :greengrin

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s60

Isn't that because they all play in the first team. :)

[bingo70]

I think one problem in recent years is that Hibs won't spend any money on young players so it's been relatively easy for Hearts to hoover them up by offering something.

And as for Hearts being miles ahead of us, check out the U20's league table :greengrin

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s60

People on this site put too much emphasis on results of the under 20 games, they mean nothing as if a youth set up was working well the young team would probably be getting pumped by 4 or 5 every week as the best players in that age group would be in or around the first team.

Tbh I find it a bit cringeworthy when I see match update threads and people getting excited about the under 20 team winning as it means nowt.

[Scouse Hibee]

People on this site put too much emphasis on results of the under 20 games, they mean nothing as if a youth set up was working well the young team would probably be getting pumped by 4 or 5 every week as the best players in that age group would be in or around the first team.

Tbh I find it a bit cringeworthy when I see match update threads and people getting excited about the under 20 team winning as it means nowt.


:agree: Can't see the wood for the trees :greengrin

[Golden Bear]

People on this site put too much emphasis on results of the under 20 games, they mean nothing as if a youth set up was working well the young team would probably be getting pumped by 4 or 5 every week as the best players in that age group would be in or around the first team.

Tbh I find it a bit cringeworthy when I see match update threads and people getting excited about the under 20 team winning as it means nowt.



You would like to think that some of the present Under 20 team will be the first team stars of the future so I don't think that it's in the least cringeworthy to take a bit interest in the results. Good news is in short supply these days so I'm happy to read about good performances from the academy teams.

[Thecat23]

I think one problem in recent years is that Hibs won't spend any money on young players so it's been relatively easy for Hearts to hoover them up by offering something.

And as for Hearts being miles ahead of us, check out the U20's league table :greengrin

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s60

Haha yeah it's good that we are higher up but I bet not a fraction of these lads make it into the team. Hearts on the other hand have had many who are able to make that step. Ok they are not world beaters but believe me these lads are better equipped to play first team footy than most of ours. We need a good youth scout and tell these kids they do have a chance if they work hard enough.

[bingo70]

[/B][/I]


You would like to think that some of the present Under 20 team will be the first team stars of the future so I don't think that it's in the least cringeworthy to take a bit interest in the results. Good news is in short supply these days so I'm happy to read about good performances from the academy teams.

I think any stars of the future will be in the first team by 18/19 and if they're not the fact they can do well against teenagers at other clubs doesn't really mean very much imo.

[superfurryhibby]

Is location a factor? I guess the academy is based in east mains. Perhaps easier getting to herriot watt than our place.

Could we use the academy to host games for juvenile leagues. That way bring the talent to our door rather than sending scouts all over the place.

Most academy players are signed very young and probably don't play juvenile football much beyond primary school age.

If it really costs £500,000/year to run our youth set up then we are not seeing a good return for our investment.

[Golden Bear]

I think any stars of the future will be in the first team by 18/19 and if they're not the fact they can do well against teenagers at other clubs doesn't really mean very much imo.

I agree that they should be and I'm not sure if it's down to a lack of ability or reluctance on the part of Management to promote youngsters at an early age. Right now for instance, the signing of Shefti Kuqi has only served to curtail the career progression of Caldwell and Handling but that's another story I dare say.

[truehibernian]

Is location a factor? I guess the academy is based in east mains. Perhaps easier getting to herriot watt than our place.

Could we use the academy to host games for juvenile leagues. That way bring the talent to our door rather than sending scouts all over the place.

Location is an easy argument and wrong in my opinion - I know a number of kids at Livingston who are Edinburgh based, some who train with St Johnstone, some with Falkirk - again who live in central Edinburgh.

Hearts stole a march on the rest due to resources and coaches - the Murrays have (through gritted teeth) been very good at attracting young players. So have Aberdeen, however much of that was down to Willie Miller - who they binned unceremoniously. Aberdeen have a 'four corners' academy structure which breaks up Scotland into manageable chunks (East/West/Central/North).

Then there are the SFA Academies - all clubs have youths represented there. Celtic as usual went their own way and use St Ninian's.

Saying that I have seen a couple of the players St Johnstone have signed recently and to say they were/are poor is an understatement - you could more or less put these kids out of their misery now and tell them they are not good enough - sadly.

If anyone from the coaching team is looking in, apparently one of the private schools, I think Stew Mel, has a Scandinavian kid who is, I'm told, one of the best youngsters my coaching mate has seen in years - family have moved over here for work. I was told Hibs, Hearts and English clubs were looking at him. I watched him during a trial and I thought he was superb - and was then told he was a year or two younger then the rest and had been thrown in because of his ability - he was the star of the trial. Had a pony tail though - fashion police can't have any Hibs player in a pony tail :greengrin

[Hibby cal]

I do believe that in the future(8yrs) that we will
see a return on our youth system.
we currently have players at our club attending
specialist training school run by sfa coaches.
thay also train with our club and play for our club
at. Weekends.
One of these boys is my nephew and is very highly
rated at Easter. Road.he is also a hibs season ticket
holder and loves hibs.so the future of our club is going to
be ok ,just needs a little more time to bear fruit.
:flag::flag::flag:

[markom127]

Stanton, Caldwell, Handling, Forster, Donaldson, Horribine

All get praised. Another Golden Generation is on the way!:flag:

[truehibernian]

I think one problem in recent years is that Hibs won't spend any money on young players so it's been relatively easy for Hearts to hoover them up by offering something.

And as for Hearts being miles ahead of us, check out the U20's league table :greengrin

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s60

You have just highlighted the problem however Mikey, for me anyway - we are far far too results focused in Scotland and at youth level. Dare I say that there exists an 'elitist' attitude at youth/juvenile level which makes me cringe - and don't rule out the nepotism too.

Clubs will immediately scout Hutchison Vale, Tynecastle etc - and maybe spend less time watching smaller juvenile clubs (unless a player is immediately spotted) - god years ago the youth system at that level was split into federation and juvenile, basically the fed system being 'lower tier'. Not many scouts attended the likes of Prestonfield BC etc - despite their being good players in that league format.

I can think of one player, who went to Hearts but dropped like a stone down the lower leagues - purely where he was because his dad was a Hearts legend. Decent striker, not a world beater, and there were far far better players in the league he was in (and at his club). Yet he was given the chance another lad may have taken and done better with. I played with another player who went round the world before ending up here, and then captain of Sheffield Wednesday in his latter playing days - he worked damn hard to get there in the end and it was very well deserved through persistance and sheer workrate.

When you are a young player, it should not be the result that is the be all and end all - it should be 'how can I turn under pressure quicker', how can I learn to beat the offside trap better', 'how can I use both feet when shooting better', 'can I improve my heading ability' - the results will come, but technique is far more important.

Plus losing can also build character and make you want it more.

[truehibernian]

I do believe that in the future(8yrs) that we will
see a return on our youth system.
we currently have players at our club attending
specialist training school run by sfa coaches.
thay also train with our club and play for our club
at. Weekends.
One of these boys is my nephew and is very highly
rated at Easter. Road.he is also a hibs season ticket
holder and loves hibs.so the future of our club is going to
be ok ,just needs a little more time to bear fruit.
:flag::flag::flag:

Does he play right back :wink: great player too (if it is D).

[scoopyboy]

Over the last few years we have not developed the "conveyor belt" of talent we did at the end of last century/beginning of this. Aberdeen are bemoaning the fact that their youngsters can walk away for sweeties to England so the days of decent fees for youngsters appears to have passed. Make no mistake the fees we have received for youngsters have helped keep Hibs going over the last few years and kept us in the black most years.

Looking at our competitors- St Johnstone don't have an academy, other than Jamie Murphy Motherwell seem to be getting more youngsters on loan from English clubs than developing their own, Dundee United seem to develop players such as Russell, Mackay-Steven, Gunning which they have picked up from lower division clubs or ex English Premiership who didn't make the grade. We did that with Bamba but I can't think of many others we benefitted from taking that route.

According to Dunfermline their academy costs them £200,000pa. I would expect ours to cost much more than that. Would we not be better investing this money in the first team, trying to sign better quality players and benefitting from the extra prize money and gates a winning team would produce?

The more I think about it our business model is maybe in need of review. Anyone else think differently?

Simply shut the club down, that would save bundles.

[J-C]

Have we ever replaced John Park? No point in having an academy without the right people there to spot players coming through - there is obviously talent in Edinburgh as is shown with the players hertz are brining through just now! How come we haven't got a hold of any of them?


No but I think we should be asking questions re James McDonaugh, Head of Academy Coaching

[Ross4356]

Over the last few years we have not developed the "conveyor belt" of talent we did at the end of last century/beginning of this. Aberdeen are bemoaning the fact that their youngsters can walk away for sweeties to England so the days of decent fees for youngsters appears to have passed. Make no mistake the fees we have received for youngsters have helped keep Hibs going over the last few years and kept us in the black most years.

Looking at our competitors- St Johnstone don't have an academy, other than Jamie Murphy Motherwell seem to be getting more youngsters on loan from English clubs than developing their own, Dundee United seem to develop players such as Russell, Mackay-Steven, Gunning which they have picked up from lower division clubs or ex English Premiership who didn't make the grade. We did that with Bamba but I can't think of many others we benefitted from taking that route.

According to Dunfermline their academy costs them £200,000pa. I would expect ours to cost much more than that. Would we not be better investing this money in the first team, trying to sign better quality players and benefitting from the extra prize money and gates a winning team would produce?

The more I think about it our business model is maybe in need of review. Anyone else think differently?

Possibly the most ridiculous post ever

[Thecat23]

Possibly the most ridiculous post ever

I think the OP has made valid points. To call it the worst post ever is a bit dramatic if you look at some posts on here.

[Thecat23]

You have just highlighted the problem however Mikey, for me anyway - we are far far too results focused in Scotland and at youth level. Dare I say that there exists an 'elitist' attitude at youth/juvenile level which makes me cringe - and don't rule out the nepotism too.

Clubs will immediately scout Hutchison Vale, Tynecastle etc - and maybe spend less time watching smaller juvenile clubs (unless a player is immediately spotted) - god years ago the youth system at that level was split into federation and juvenile, basically the fed system being 'lower tier'. Not many scouts attended the likes of Prestonfield BC etc - despite their being good players in that league format.

I can think of one player, who went to Hearts but dropped like a stone down the lower leagues - purely where he was because his dad was a Hearts legend. Decent striker, not a world beater, and there were far far better players in the league he was in (and at his club). Yet he was given the chance another lad may have taken and done better with. I played with another player who went round the world before ending up here, and then captain of Sheffield Wednesday in his latter playing days - he worked damn hard to get there in the end and it was very well deserved through persistance and sheer workrate.

When you are a young player, it should not be the result that is the be all and end all - it should be 'how can I turn under pressure quicker', how can I learn to beat the offside trap better', 'how can I use both feet when shooting better', 'can I improve my heading ability' - the results will come, but technique is far more important.

Plus losing can also build character and make you want it more.

Very good post. Agree 100%.

[GreenCastle]

The solution is when you produce 1 player or even 2 and can sell them on for around 3 / 4 million and that pays for the Academy for a few years. (I didn't even think Hibs facility was even a UEFA certified Academy as it doesn't match all the criteria to be one?)

The problem is when these players aren't produced (like recently) for various reasons.... released? coaching? given a chance? poor 1st team management? then we are basically spending money on a player for another club to benefit.

This is not just a Hibs issue - down in England certain clubs have the issue too - are the youth academies cost effective. Clubs like Newcastle (sold Carroll - 35 million) and Rooney leaving Everton to sign for Man Utd help fund the Academies for a few years. But these places aren't cheap to run if you add in all the food / staff / land costs etc and how often does a Rooney or Carroll come around. Chelsea is a prime example of a having an expensive to run Academy but how many players make 1st team or are sold on? Most players end up at other English clubs.

It's a fair question and I believe the key is in the coaching and those who are running the place / coaching structure at Hibs. That also includes the scouting network...if we even have one ?

I would rather have the land / facility then no facility as although windy and out of town it least gives the players a base of consistency rather than all over the place.

If they had a full size indoor 3g / 4g then the place would really be great in the winter if they could actually reach it via the local roads.

[Andy74]

Really?

The occasional 15mins appearance from the bench by two or three players hardly constitutes a flood of players ready to make a permanent break through

I've just said we don't lack the numbers of them in the squad, it's the quality.

Numbers wise we have Hanlon, Wotherspoon, Stevenson, Caldwell, Handling, Stanton, Harris, Donaldson and Foster amongst others who have been in the squads who came through the system.

[Hibby cal]

Does he play right back :wink: great player too (if it is D).
Not right back but Center forward (JJ) defo one for the future

[danhibees1875]

Most clubs in the SPL would agree that youth development is the way forward. Definitely not something we should be turning our back on. :agree:

[Ross4356]

I think the OP has made valid points. To call it the worst post ever is a bit dramatic if you look at some posts on here.

Valid points yes I agree but close the academy, seriously?

[Brizo]

The infrastructure and the scouting / youth coaching set up need to compliment each other If we have top notch facilities but a scouting / youth coaching set up on the cheap then East Mains is never going to fulfill its side of the equation. I dont know the scouting budget but know people who have done scouting work in the past and had to chase the club up to get their petrol money. i would be interested to hear if anyone knows what the current budget is, how widespread the scouting network is and how professional the current structure is.

I believe we needed an EM type facility and to do away with it would be a backward step. However all along ive thought we should have built a smaller scale but still fit for purpose facilty and put some of the EM outlay into the scouting budget. Guys like John Park only come along once in a while and while he might never have stayed at Hibs, given the dubious lure of Celtc, was money a factor ? Id suggest his move along the M8 was far more damaging than the move made by any individual player.

We have the facilities in place. Rather than downgrade them we need to make sure the scouting / youth coaching system matches them.

[Golden Bear]

Possibly the most ridiculous post ever

The OP has only posed the question and opened up the subject for informed debate. He's not actually saying that the Youth Academy should be closed.

That's my reading of it anyway.

[Pete]

No.

We should be diverting funds towards a better scouting network. I want hibs to be the place that youngsters choose and I want us to be known all over the UK as a club that produces quality players who are schooled the right way.

It's the only way forward and we should be stealing a march while others are employing journeymen.

[wookie70]

I run an under 10s team and our set up had almost half out of 20 laddies training with Hearts or Hibs at one time. 7 or 8 at Hearts and only a couple at Hibs. From my experience Hearts seem to want to see as much talent as possibleand from the outside at least look like they are making a huge effort at such an early age. For what it is worth I think that Hibs and Hearts would be better sponsoring Boys Clubs a bit like Hutchy and Dundee United years ago.

[jgl07]

The infrastructure and the scouting / youth coaching set up need to compliment each other If we have top notch facilities but a scouting / youth coaching set up on the cheap then East Mains is never going to fulfill its side of the equation.

Coaching staff: "What a marvellous training centre you are".

East Mains: "And you are great coaches"!

[Thecat23]

Valid points yes I agree but close the academy, seriously?

Think maybe that was tongue in cheek. But of course that would be wrong to just close it down.

[Stantons Angel]

I run an under 10s team and our set up had almost half out of 20 laddies training with Hearts or Hibs at one time. 7 or 8 at Hearts and only a couple at Hibs. From my experience Hearts seem to want to see as much talent as possibleand from the outside at least look like they are making a huge effort at such an early age. For what it is worth I think that Hibs and Hearts would be better sponsoring Boys Clubs a bit like Hutchy and Dundee United years ago.

being involved in the running of young football teams in various age groups and leagues i have seen at first had the way that our Capital clubs approach the selection of young players from junior teams.

This is not always in the correct manner either! Causing a lot of heartache for the kids and their wee teams. Hibs did sponsor Hutchie at one stage and some of our better players over the years have come through that type of system.

To close our academy would neither be cost efficient or the right thing to do. If we have no academy we have no home grown talent and Hibs as a club cant afford hugely inflated transfer fees to get the kind of young player that has come through our academy over the years.

Hibs have always had good young players and have brought them on to first team level and then sold them? This has been the funding behind the new stadium, the training center and can be looked upon as the cause of our lack of success on the park.

I would be against the closing of our academy but would like to see the scouting system better used further afield. Id also like to see the young academy players continue their activity with the community groups.

After all the people they are helping there are the fans of tomorrow as well as being fans of the young players' generation of first team players.

[Brizo]

Coaching staff: "What a marvellous training centre you are".

East Mains: "And you are great coaches"!

Your a funny guy.

My concern is that im not convinced EM could make that statement :wink:

[Stevo1875]

I don't know if you can, but listen to yesterday's Keys and Gray on Talksport and the interview with Crewe's Dario Gradi - that should answer your question PH.

Far from closing them, we should be investing in them properly in my opinion, and casting the scouting wider - admittedly Hibs have to start showing a little bit more faith in the youngsters in my opinion - but after seasons of mediocrity, numerous managers coming in, and players yoyo-ing in and out of Easter Road, that may come with some stability in management.

Scotland youth trials are soon and sadly there is not a good Hibs showing for them (in numbers)


Totally agree with this. Young players playing without decent pro's and being shunted from one position to another as well as experiencing so many different expectations and priorities from a number of poor managers can't help them.

Who was at the club when brown and co came through compared to who was at the club to help Stevenson and Wotherspoon through?!

Youth is the only option but we need guys unlike riordan and o'connor to set a better example and to talk them through the game, not the drinks menu! This is why I like McPake. Not the best in the league but dedicated to the club and football.

:jmcp::fenlon

[PatHead]

Totally agree with this. Young players playing without decent pro's and being shunted from one position to another as well as experiencing so many different expectations and priorities from a number of poor managers can't help them.

Who was at the club when brown and co came through compared to who was at the club to help Stevenson and Wotherspoon through?!

Youth is the only option but we need guys unlike riordan and o'connor to set a better example and to talk them through the game, not the drinks menu! This is why I like McPake. Not the best in the league but dedicated to the club and football.

:jmcp::fenlon

When O'Connor first played the players he worked with were Mixu and Brewster.

[Hibeesforever]

I don't know if you can, but listen to yesterday's Keys and Gray on Talksport and the interview with Crewe's Dario Gradi - that should answer your question PH.

Far from closing them, we should be investing in them properly in my opinion, and casting the scouting wider - admittedly Hibs have to start showing a little bit more faith in the youngsters in my opinion - but after seasons of mediocrity, numerous managers coming in, and players yoyo-ing in and out of Easter Road, that may come with some stability in management.

Scotland youth trials are soon and sadly there is not a good Hibs showing for them (in numbers)

Agree, Mr Petrie should invest another £500k and get the best coaching in Europe to run the thing. It is an absolute joke that smaller clubs than ours with less resources, have in recent years, produced better younger players than us.

Do whatever it takes, link up with other respected English or European clubs and ensure that the best Scottish talent looks at Hibs first. It is not a glorified gym for the first team. It is is nurturing area for the best young players in Britain. Be the best and create an East Mains buzz.

I have no idea how a player can be at East Mains for so long but then it is discovered that they are not good enough or don't have the temperment for the first team.

The transfer prices in England are not going down anytime soon.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Close the academy , got to come good Shirley

[rcarter1]

Really interesting thread. My questions to RP would be:

If we didnt have East Mains, how much less would we spend on our youth set up (after all we brought the golden generation through without East Mains). Its been mentioned that it costs £500,000/year. That's about 5 first team players.

I dont accept the argument that we might sell a youth player for 2 million pounds and this somehow justifies the cost of East Mains. We developed players of this kind of value without East Mains (ie without the expenditure associated). It would need to be shown that we develop £500,000/year (or whatever the difference is), more than we would have done without East Mains. Frankly considering the cost of building it, you'd want to be generating more like £750,000/year in player sales MORE than we would do without the facility for it to be seen as a real success.

To get to the point: does East Mains actually help us develop these 2 million pound players? If so how does it achieve this? It is basically a set of posh pitches and a few buildings. How does this make better players as compared to cheaper alternatives?

If it can be shown that Hearts are better able to recruit better youth than we do - why is that the case? If we are missing out on the best talent, then having East Mains is a bit of wasted investment. Surely the money needs to be directed at getting the right young players in the first place.

What staff are involved in developing our youth set up, and are there any improvements/additions to be made to it.

Finally, how much money would we get for selling East Mains (ie whats it worth as an asset). Could the sum of money raised by such a sale be used strategically to develop a more effective youth development strategy?

For all I know the next golden generation is on its way, but £500,000 per year is a huge cost for a club like Hibs.

[Haymaker]

East Mains is not an academy. It is a training centre.

Recruiting talent is sales work to convince people to commit there.

Most teams youth development squads are there to push one or two players who *might* make it.

Most youth development coaches consider getting 1player per year shirted a success.

We cannot produce superstars consistently, very few teams can.

[rcarter1]

East Mains is not an academy. It is a training centre.

Good point. Do you think the value of a training facility like this justifies the cost of building and running it?

[Haymaker]

Good point. Do you think the value of a training facility like this justifies the cost of building and running it?

Yes, if used correctly.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

The future that we bought into when the golden generation were sold and not replaced was the the player budget we have would be a supplement or if you like, a top-up for two or three experienced heads to add to the talent that the infrastructure would deliver, Clearly that hasn't been the case.

[RIP]

I know of a couple of laddies who were offered trials at Hibs but the thought of dad having to drive 100 mile round trips to East Lothian three times a week either side of 2hour training sessions was enough to put their parents off

Anyone know any Academy players who have started regularly for Hibs and joined the Academy after it was relocated to Ormiston? Almost everyone must have joined Hibs when their academy was at Shotts.

Moving to East Mains broke the connection between Hibs and Edinburgh. Management should start reversing that in my view.

Could Hibs take a part-share in Meadowbank and use that facility and a combination of community facilities within a 2 mile radius of our Stadium to run youth teams in partnership with local clubs? This would build a strong community feel around Hibernian and bring players back into contact with the Stadium, local schools, local businesses and the Community Foundation.

Imagine if Hibs were to build links with teams that play at Leith Links; rent time at Leith Academy; buy the land off plumb center/neighbours and build indoor pitches; help the council by building a running course in Lochend park and share facilities at Meadowbank. This would create a fitness and footballing village all within walking distance of the stadium.

[TrickyNicky]

I know of a couple of laddies who were offered trials at Hibs but the thought of dad having to drive 100 mile round trips to East Lothian three times a week either side of 2hour training sessions was enough to put their parents off

Anyone know any Academy players who have started regularly for Hibs and joined the Academy after it was relocated to Ormiston? Almost everyone must have joined Hibs when their academy was at Shotts.

Moving to East Mains broke the connection between Hibs and Edinburgh. Management should start reversing that in my view.

Could Hibs take a part-share in Meadowbank and use that facility and a combination of community facilities within a 2 mile radius of our Stadium to run youth teams in partnership with local clubs? This would build a strong community feel around Hibernian and bring players back into contact with the Stadium, local schools, local businesses and the Community Foundation.

Imagine if Hibs were to build links with teams that play at Leith Links; rent time at Leith Academy; buy the land off plumb center/neighbours and build indoor pitches; help the council by building a running course in Lochend park and share facilities at Meadowbank. This would create a fitness and footballing village all within walking distance of the stadium.

All good questions Gogs43.

Does anybody know if all SPL clubs are required to have an academy and is there any funding from the SFA towards this?

[M6hibee]

So because we are not producing at the moment we just give up on the academy? Is he on the wind up? These things are cyclical. Another wave will come. I mean...... Seriously?

[brydekirk]

John park, never replaced, fact end off

[Haymaker]

Again, we do not have an "academy".

We have a youth policy.

[Bishop Hibee]

No. I think a lot of things at ER need a good shake up though. Edinburgh and East/West/Midlothian must have a combined population of around 800K so we should be able to get a good share of the best youngsters. Sounds like the scouting and coaching set up is not as it should be if those on here are to be believed. In terms of a proper academy, maybe Hibs should bid to take over Castlebrae to be used in tandem with East Mains as it'll be closing soon. Full sized astro pitch as well. Probably too expensive to run but if kids could be given a good academic education as well as a sporting one it would surely attract the cream of the crop?

Needs to be combined with astute signings as Mowbray did with players who didn't make it at the EPL level e.g. Shiels, Murphy and Hogg.

As it is we'll muddle along with the odd gem coming through.

[TrickyNicky]

Again, we do not have an "academy".

We have a youth policy.

Why does the club call it an " Academy " and what is the difference between the two?

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/page/Academy

[swanny 6-2]

Over the past 5-6 years the under 19s/under 20s have always done well in there league usually top 3/top 4 if not challenging for 1st or 2nd,anytime they have played in prestigious cup/invite tournaments they have always done quite well ie foyle cup/milk cup/Dutch tournament forgot what it's called,do we as a club persevere in giving the handlings or stantons a decent run in the team,I don't think we do,so should we close east mains I don't think so,is there talent there,I think there is,we just need the right people in place who know how to move them onto the next level

[Beefster]

Maybe we just need to improve the way the Academy is operated? As with a lot of things at Hibs, there seems, from the outside, to be a lack of leadership and the operation seems a bit amateurish.

It's no coincidence that the youth set-up not producing commenced roughly about the time John Park left.

[rcarter1]

Maybe we just need to improve the way the Academy is operated? As with a lot of things at Hibs, there seems, from the outside, to be a lack of leadership and the operation seems a bit amateurish.

It's no coincidence that the youth set-up not producing commenced roughly about the time John Park left.

This.

A lot of thought needs to be put into justifying using £500,000/year to run a facility when it could be used for wages.

Rod Petrie has been a very good steward for the club in terms of bring financial stability, but is not for me a football man. His managerial appointments have illustrated this, and I sincerely believe we would benefit with some one new to take us forward.

Having only now realised how far away East Mains is from Edinburgh, it further concerns me that the facility is not fit for purpose. If it can be shown that some talented young players would choose Hearts over Hibs because of the difficulty of getting to East Mains, then again this is a cause for concern.

If nothing changes, at the very least we need to work out a way of really getting benefit from such a facility.

[marinello59]

This.

A lot of thought needs to be put into justifying using £500,000/year to run a facility when it could be used for wages.

Rod Petrie has been a very good steward for the club in terms of bring financial stability, but is not for me a football man. His managerial appointments have illustrated this, and I sincerely believe we would benefit with some one new to take us forward.

Having only now realised how far away East Mains is from Edinburgh, it further concerns me that the facility is not fit for purpose. If it can be shown that some talented young players would choose Hearts over Hibs because of the difficulty of getting to East Mains, then again this is a cause for concern.If nothing changes, at the very least we need to work out a way of really getting benefit from such a facility.

Seriously? If the ''difficulty'' in getting to East Mains is a problem then I would question their commitment anyway.
I can't honestly beleive that people would think either shutting the facility down or curtailing the operations of the youth academy is the way forward. A football club has a duty to bring through players from a young age and give them the chance to make it as a pro in the first team or at least go on to a career at some level. That's the key for me, providing the opportunity. If Hibs was to drop that commitment and concentrate all it's resources on maintaining a first team squad only then it ceases to be a proper football club.

[rcarter1]

Seriously? If the ''difficulty'' in getting to East Mains is a problem then I would question their commitment anyway.

It was mentioned that it was the parents not wanting to travel, and so is less a reflection on the youngsters and more the basic logistical inconvenience of the facility.

I can't honestly beleive that people would think either shutting the facility down or curtailing the operations of the youth academy is the way forward.

Shutting down/selling the facility does not mean a curtailing of operating a youth policy/academy. It means looking to do it in a more cost efffective manner.

A football club has a duty to bring through players from a young age and give them the chance to make it as a pro in the first team or at least go on to a career at some level. That's the key for me, providing the opportunity. If Hibs was to drop that commitment and concentrate all it's resources on maintaining a first team squad only then it ceases to be a proper football club.


Totally agree, but it is possible that East mains is not the best way to achieve this.

[Greendub]

I know of a couple of laddies who were offered trials at Hibs but the thought of dad having to drive 100 mile round trips to East Lothian three times a week either side of 2hour training sessions was enough to put their parents off

Anyone know any Academy players who have started regularly for Hibs and joined the Academy after it was relocated to Ormiston? Almost everyone must have joined Hibs when their academy was at Shotts.

Moving to East Mains broke the connection between Hibs and Edinburgh. Management should start reversing that in my view.

Could Hibs take a part-share in Meadowbank and use that facility and a combination of community facilities within a 2 mile radius of our Stadium to run youth teams in partnership with local clubs? This would build a strong community feel around Hibernian and bring players back into contact with the Stadium, local schools, local businesses and the Community Foundation.

Imagine if Hibs were to build links with teams that play at Leith Links; rent time at Leith Academy; buy the land off plumb center/neighbours and build indoor pitches; help the council by building a running course in Lochend park and share facilities at Meadowbank. This would create a fitness and footballing village all within walking distance of the stadium.

Very good ideas!

If hibs want to be a community club, then that's the way to do it

[rcarter1]

On a light hearted note, perhaps we could sell/rent East mains to Hearts for a new stadium should they go bust... :greengrin

[jdships]

Again, we do not have an "academy".

We have a youth policy.

Thankyou for making that point AGAIN
I was about to back your previous posts :thumbsup:
I have had rellies through EM and not many complaints that I have heard of
Staff changes - yes but the overall facility seems to be OK

[PatHead]

Really interested in everyone's take on the subject. In my original post I tried to highlight how other clubs have taken a different approach to youth development whilst we have gone down the 5 star Uefa accredited facility/programme. I don't feel this is working as we are not producing enough youngsters. Perhaps we were spoilt with the Golden Generation but there has been a distinct lack of players making the step up. Other than Wotherspoon, Booth and a couple of appearances by Handling and Stanton there is a problem in translating the youngsters from a successful U20 team into the first team.

PF does not have the input into the tactics played by the U20s and this is under the remit of to the Director of the academy to set out the style of play. This, at least to me, is a massive flaw and should be addressed as a matter of urgency. It is difficult enough to make the step up to the first team without changing the style of play.

It is no co-incidence that our most successful youngster (Griffiths) didn't come from our academy.

[Golden Bear]

Really interested in everyone's take on the subject. In my original post I tried to highlight how other clubs have taken a different approach to youth development whilst we have gone down the 5 star Uefa accredited facility/programme. I don't feel this is working as we are not producing enough youngsters. Perhaps we were spoilt with the Golden Generation but there has been a distinct lack of players making the step up. Other than Wotherspoon, Booth and a couple of appearances by Handling and Stanton there is a problem in translating the youngsters from a successful U20 team into the first team.

PF does not have the input into the tactics played by the U20s and this is under the remit of to the Director of the academy to set out the style of play. This, at least to me, is a massive flaw and should be addressed as a matter of urgency. It is difficult enough to make the step up to the first team without changing the style of play.

It is no co-incidence that our most successful youngster (Griffiths) didn't come from our academy.

:agree:

And the same points are appearing in the other thread following the Meeting with Bill Hendry

[Hibeesforever]

I know of a couple of laddies who were offered trials at Hibs but the thought of dad having to drive 100 mile round trips to East Lothian three times a week either side of 2hour training sessions was enough to put their parents off

Anyone know any Academy players who have started regularly for Hibs and joined the Academy after it was relocated to Ormiston? Almost everyone must have joined Hibs when their academy was at Shotts.

Moving to East Mains broke the connection between Hibs and Edinburgh. Management should start reversing that in my view.

Could Hibs take a part-share in Meadowbank and use that facility and a combination of community facilities within a 2 mile radius of our Stadium to run youth teams in partnership with local clubs? This would build a strong community feel around Hibernian and bring players back into contact with the Stadium, local schools, local businesses and the Community Foundation.

Imagine if Hibs were to build links with teams that play at Leith Links; rent time at Leith Academy; buy the land off plumb center/neighbours and build indoor pitches; help the council by building a running course in Lochend park and share facilities at Meadowbank. This would create a fitness and footballing village all within walking distance of the stadium.

Best post I have seen for a while. It has got me thinking.
Location is the problem with East Mains.
Whole of Edinburgh has been moved West by the Hearts council.
A young Glasgow teenager has no chance of commuting for evening training at East Mains.
Very radical and we would need such a board but land swap East Mains to the council and lease a purpose built modern sport facility at Meadowbank ?
Fantastic training runs from ground to training ground and real connection with the community.
Better transport links to the major population centres. Therefore more chance of parents agreeing to allowing their kids to join Hibs.

The Hearts council are looking to build a facility for Hearts, we should lobby for the same.

[Scouse Hibee]

I know of several youngsters from Edinburgh connected to a variety of clubs from Raith Rovers to Aberdeen so the EM is too far to travel excuse doesn't wash with me.