Torturer and murderer of toddler killed in prison

[Beefster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21473294

Karma and no great loss?

Travesty and unacceptable failure of the prison system?

[The_Exile]

The former.

[Hibs Class]

Both. No great loss and definitely a failure of the system.

[Killiehibbie]

I hope he died in great pain.

[Future17]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21473294

Karma and no great loss?

Travesty and unacceptable failure of the prison system?

Definitely the latter and probably the former.

Innocent people do go to jail. We need to be able to keep them safe while they are there.

[(((Fergus)))]

Definitely the latter and probably the former.

Innocent people do go to jail. We need to be able to keep them safe while they are there.

:agree:

[lord bunberry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21473294

Karma and no great loss?

Travesty and unacceptable failure of the prison system?

Its absolutely sickening that someone could do that to a child. Its hard to have any sympathy for him

[Steve-O]

How do we know what the 2 perpetrators are in for?

[LeighLoyal]

It's just a shame his death wasn't as pitiless and cruel as his victims was. Well done those lads.

[Big Ed]

It's just a shame his death wasn't as pitiless and cruel as his victims was. Well done those lads.

Maybe we could give them an award for services to public decency? sponsored by The Sun maybe.

[Hibs Class]

It's just a shame his death wasn't as pitiless and cruel as his victims was. Well done those lads.

A common view amongst idiots.

[Twa Cairpets]

Its absolutely sickening that someone could do that to a child. Its hard to have any sympathy for him

It's impossible to have nay sympathy for him, but that's not the point.

We don't have the death penalty in the UK - undoubtedly a good thing in my opinion. Therefore, no matter how much of a s***bag a convict is we have decided as a society that causing his death is not just. Two inmates of a prison becoming judge and jury and pronouncing a death sentence isn't a thing that can be condoned, no matter how repellant the "victim" is.

That doesnt mean we should have sympathy for him. On an emotional basis, he got what he deserved, but on a more reflective and civilised level, he was let down by the prison authorities

[LeighLoyal]

A common view amongst idiots.



Maybe you should review the extreme sadistic cruelty he visited on that poor child and you might join the common view, or keep mourning his death - a common view amongst socialist good guys like you.

[Hibs Class]

Maybe you should review the extreme sadistic cruelty he visited on that poor child and you might join the common view, or keep mourning his death - a common view amongst socialist good guys like you.


You know **** all about me, so I forgive you your ignorance in describing me as a socialist good guy. I don't mourn his death because I recognise that as an individual he was the personification of evil and his crime was heinous. I support the death penalty and would have had no qualms had he been subject to judicial execution. However, with regard to society (with or without the death penalty) we either support a justice system as we currently have or we opt for mob rule, but we cannot have both. I don't know what the guys who murdered him were imprisoned for but it's immaterial - as far as I'm concerned it's only moronic supporters of mob rule who will celebrate his death with expressions such as as "well done those lads". If convicted of his murder they will receive life sentences and they will both wholly deserve them - to represent them as heroes is both ignorant and crass.

[Steve-O]

Would FalkirkHibby change his tune if the 2 who killed him were also inside for crimes against children?

And why do we assume this murder was because of what he'd done? People don't walk around prison with a badge on detailing what they're in for.

[GhostofBolivar]

It's just a shame his death wasn't as pitiless and cruel as his victims was. Well done those lads.

I think you'll find that murder isn't justice.

[Sir David Gray]

Can't say I have any sympathy at all for him.

He committed one of the worst crimes imaginable, the torture and murder of a defenceless young child, so I don't think there's going to be too many people shedding any tears for him.

Having said that, it's certainly a failure of the prison authorities to have failed to protect an inmate from harm. As much as some of these people may be extremely evil, the authorities have a duty of care towards every single prisoner that they look after.

The fact that this man has been murdered is a failing on their part.

[lord bunberry]

It's impossible to have nay sympathy for him, but that's not the point.

We don't have the death penalty in the UK - undoubtedly a good thing in my opinion. Therefore, no matter how much of a s***bag a convict is we have decided as a society that causing his death is not just. Two inmates of a prison becoming judge and jury and pronouncing a death sentence isn't a thing that can be condoned, no matter how repellant the "victim" is.

That doesnt mean we should have sympathy for him. On an emotional basis, he got what he deserved, but on a more reflective and civilised level, he was let down by the prison authorities

I agree with that but I'm intrigued to know why you think its impossible to have no sympathy for him

[Beefster]

Would FalkirkHibby change his tune if the 2 who killed him were also inside for crimes against children?

And why do we assume this murder was because of what he'd done? People don't walk around prison with a badge on detailing what they're in for.

Given the publicity that surrounded his trial, his offences would be common knowledge in the prison.

[500miles]

We should treat all inmates as human beings. Like it or not, when we dehumanise them, we dehumanise ourselves. The human condition is such that we are all capable of committing terrible atrocities, and some of our number will do just that. Evil, dangerous, vile and contemptible those individuals may be, when we start justifying pre meditated murder, we simply expose the side of our nature that we hold in common with the worst among us.

We punish and legislate to set an example, and encourage the sort of society we wish to live in, not in fear or disgust of those who act out with those basic moral standards.

The guys that killed him are still blood thirsty murderers - just like he was. And those who condone their actions are guilty of that same thirst for blood, probably unaware of the bond they share with the one they are revelling in the death of.

[Twa Cairpets]

I agree with that but I'm intrigued to know why you think its impossible to have no sympathy for him

Yeh, possibly an overstatement. "Exceedingly difficult" might have been better than "impossible". I suppose I meant I have no sadness at his personal passing due ti the crimes he committed, but do at the manner of it?

[M6hibee]

We should treat all inmates as human beings. Like it or not, when we dehumanise them, we dehumanise ourselves. The human condition is such that we are all capable of committing terrible atrocities, and some of our number will do just that. Evil, dangerous, vile and contemptible those individuals may be, when we start justifying pre meditated murder, we simply expose the side of our nature that we hold in common with the worst among us.

We punish and legislate to set an example, and encourage the sort of society we wish to live in, not in fear or disgust of those who act out with those basic moral standards.

The guys that killed him are still blood thirsty murderers - just like he was. And those who condone their actions are guilty of that same thirst for blood, probably unaware of the bond they share with the one they are revelling in the death of.


Aye wonderful sentiment, how lovely and cuddly you are.

Back in the real world, good riddance to the ****. Whatever the reason behind the murder, the ****bag deserved it

[Twa Cairpets]

Aye wonderful sentiment, how lovely and cuddly you are.

Back in the real world, good riddance to the ****. Whatever the reason behind the murder, the ****bag deserved it

Tell me, have you moved down the M6 recently form Falkirk, Corstorphine or Hong Kong maybe?

[Pretty Boy]

Aye wonderful sentiment, how lovely and cuddly you are.

Back in the real world, good riddance to the ****. Whatever the reason behind the murder, the ****bag deserved it

Just imagine the guys who commited this act were also paedos or murderers, how does that make people in the real world feel?

[Hibrandenburg]

Just imagine the guys who commited this act were also paedos or murderers, how does that make people in the real world feel?

Add to that that these individuals probably had some form of sordid enjoyment in carrying out the killing.

[M6hibee]

What I'm saying is I don't care how this guy got killed, he deserved it and he is no loss. All this talk about him and his supposed rights, kind of takes attention away fae the poor kids who he tortured and killed in the first place. Eye for an eye, good riddance

[M6hibee]

Tell me, have you moved down the M6 recently form Falkirk, Corstorphine or Hong Kong maybe?

No. Tell me, are you from the land of the Care Bears or some cuddly rainbow land maybe?

[carnoustiehibee]

Just imagine the guys who commited this act were also paedos or murderers, how does that make people in the real world feel?

Feels fine to me. Stick them all on a deserted island and let them kill each other. Set up camera big brother style and stick in on sat night tv instead of dancing on ice etc.

The guy deserved all he got for killing a kid. Just a pity he probably didn't feel as much pain as the wee bairn did.

[lapsedhibee]

It's impossible to have nay sympathy for him, but that's not the point.

I agree with that but I'm intrigued to know why you think its impossible to have no sympathy for him

Think that might have been intended to read "any" rather than "no".


Yeh, possibly an overstatement. "Exceedingly difficult" might have been better than "impossible". I suppose I meant I have no sadness at his personal passing due ti the crimes he committed, but do at the manner of it?


Tell me, have you moved down the M6 recently form Falkirk, Corstorphine or Hong Kong maybe?

:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

What I'm saying is I don't care how this guy got killed, he deserved it and he is no loss. All this talk about him and his supposed rights, kind of takes attention away fae the poor kids who he tortured and killed in the first place. Eye for an eye, good riddance

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

[M6hibee]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

A nothing sentence designed to come over neat and clever but utterly meaningless. When it comes to **** like this fella and those who take a life then all the nice sentences and statements will not make me believe the perpetrators don't deserve likewise. Doesn't marke the world blind, sends a message that justice will be done. This fella? No loss and this world your referring to is a better place without people like him contaminating it

[GhostofBolivar]

A nothing sentence designed to come over neat and clever but utterly meaningless. When it comes to **** like this fella and those who take a life then all the nice sentences and statements will not make me believe the perpetrators don't deserve likewise. Doesn't marke the world blind, sends a message that justice will be done. This fella? No loss and this world your referring to is a better place without people like him contaminating it

35 years ago, people said the same thing about the Birmingham Six...

[carnoustiehibee]

35 years ago, people said the same thing about the Birmingham Six...

Do you think this guy was innocent ?

[--------]

We should treat all inmates as human beings. Like it or not, when we dehumanise them, we dehumanise ourselves. The human condition is such that we are all capable of committing terrible atrocities, and some of our number will do just that. Evil, dangerous, vile and contemptible those individuals may be, when we start justifying pre meditated murder, we simply expose the side of our nature that we hold in common with the worst among us.

We punish and legislate to set an example, and encourage the sort of society we wish to live in, not in fear or disgust of those who act out with those basic moral standards.

The guys that killed him are still blood thirsty murderers - just like he was. And those who condone their actions are guilty of that same thirst for blood, probably unaware of the bond they share with the one they are revelling in the death of.


:agree: The law is the law, justice is justice, and revenge is something else.

Torturing and killing a wee girl is inexcusable, but it does no good to anyone when the prison system fails to protect any individual in its custody. Looking back down this thread, I'm embarrassed by the callousness and cynicism of my own last post on this subject. No, not embarrassed - ashamed. This man's death constitutes a failure of duty and diligence on the part of the prison officers on duty at the time of his death. To gloat over it makes one party to it.

Miscarriages of justice take place - this we know. So do cases of mistaken identity. Suppose these two heroes had picked the wrong man? Suppose the man they picked was the "right" man, but a man in prison because of a failure of the judicial system or incompetence or corruption on the part of the police investigating the crime?

What many of us on this thread are saying is that it's OK for convicted felons to take the law into their own hands to inflict a penalty on another convict that the law of the land has outlawed. We're saying it's OK for a couple of thugs to kill a man in prison because they reckon what HE did was worse than what THEY did. And for the prison officers (whose duty it was to protect ALL the prisoners in their custody) to turn a blind eye and let it happen.

Treat every man after his deserts, and who would escape hanging?

[GhostofBolivar]

Do you think this guy was innocent ?

No.

That wasn't my point.

[--------]

Do you think this guy was innocent ?


Is that relevant?

At what point does it become OK for convicted criminals to take the law into their own hands?

Is it OK to kill someone who killed a child?

Is it OK to kill a sex offender? A wife-beater? A serial rapist?

What about a single mother who kills her baby when she (the mother) is in the depths of post-natal depression?

How certain do they need to be they've got the right person? That they really know what happened? Or is it OK just to target someone they THINK is the right person? Or someone a Prison officer tells them is the right person?

What about Sally Clark, the mother who was convicted of killing her two children on the flawed evidence of a pediatrician, Roy Meadow, who didn't believe two babies in the same "affluent" family could both die of cot-death syndrome?

She was a solicitor and the daughter of a police officer, and her fellow-prisoners targeted her for abuse from the moment she arrived in prison. Then Meadow's testimony at her trial was discredited. It also turned out that evidence pointing to natural causes in both deaths was withheld from the defence lawyers by the CPS. She was released.

Happy ever after? Not likely. She died 4 years after her release having suffered insurmountable psychiatric problems due entirely to her treatment in prison - which prison officers did nothing to prevent and which you and others no doubt would have approved of? After all, she was only getting what she deserved?

Donna Anthony and Angela Cannings were also convicted on the testimony of the same arrogant, corrupt "expert" witness. Theyt got the same treatment - innocent victims of a travesty of justice.

Trupti Patel was lucky - she was only ACCUSED of killing HER children - she was acquitted and didn't go to jail. She only got the tabloid treatment, but if she HAD gone to prison, would she have got what she deserved as well?

http://www.hibs.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3509478

[JimBHibees]

Do you think this guy was innocent ?

No one thought they were innocent either.

[Beefster]

Whilst I can see both sides of the argument, one of my relatives was kidnapped, abused and murdered when I was younger. It took a long time for the guy to be caught and, in the meantime, he murdered others. Because of the nature of his crimes, he gets attacked in prison every so often (e.g. boiling water, knives, screwdrivers). As morally wrong as it may be, I (and a lot of my family) get some satisfaction from the fact that, occasionally, he might be suffering a small fraction of the hell that he put my relative (and others) through.

[Hibrandenburg]

:agree: The law is the law, justice is justice, and revenge is something else.

Torturing and killing a wee girl is inexcusable, but it does no good to anyone when the prison system fails to protect any individual in its custody. Looking back down this thread, I'm embarrassed by the callousness and cynicism of my own last post on this subject. No, not embarrassed - ashamed. This man's death constitutes a failure of duty and diligence on the part of the prison officers on duty at the time of his death. To gloat over it makes one party to it.

Miscarriages of justice take place - this we know. So do cases of mistaken identity. Suppose these two heroes had picked the wrong man? Suppose the man they picked was the "right" man, but a man in prison because of a failure of the judicial system or incompetence or corruption on the part of the police investigating the crime?

What many of us on this thread are saying is that it's OK for convicted felons to take the law into their own hands to inflict a penalty on another convict that the law of the land has outlawed. We're saying it's OK for a couple of thugs to kill a man in prison because they reckon what HE did was worse than what THEY did. And for the prison officers (whose duty it was to protect ALL the prisoners in their custody) to turn a blind eye and let it happen.

Treat every man after his deserts, and who would escape hanging?


:top marks

[Scouse Hibee]

My head tells me it was wrong, my heart tells me who gives a ****.....................good riddance.

[Pete]

My head tells me it was wrong, my heart tells me who gives a ****.....................good riddance.

Pretty much where I'm at too.

[Hibrandenburg]

My head tells me it was wrong, my heart tells me who gives a ****.....................good riddance.

:agree: Little bit of an inner conflict here too.

[Twa Cairpets]

No. Tell me, are you from the land of the Care Bears or some cuddly rainbow land maybe?

Erm, no, why would that be the case - try reading the other posts.

Just so I'm absolutely clear, you're entirely happy that justice is decided upon and served by convicts? That is what you're saying, right?

[M6hibee]

Erm, no, why would that be the case - try reading the other posts.

Just so I'm absolutely clear, you're entirely happy that justice is decided upon and served by convicts? That is what you're saying, right?

Naw happy that **** get what they deserve, end of. I've read the posts thanks for the tip

[M6hibee]

And twa cairpets, you were the one who started wie the sarcasm so don't get offended if you get it back

[Twa Cairpets]

Naw happy that **** get what they deserve, end of. I've read the posts thanks for the tip

So you're not answering my question, just restating your opinion.

Do you think it right that convicted convicts should be judge, jury and (in this case) executioner? It's a fairly straightforward yes or no answer, I think.

[M6hibee]

So you're not answering my question, just restating your opinion.

Do you think it right that convicted convicts should be judge, jury and (in this case) executioner? It's a fairly straightforward yes or no answer, I think.


Given you an answer and if you dinnae like it, tough. I'm saying this guy got his just desserts end of

[Twa Cairpets]

Naw happy that **** get what they deserve, end of. I've read the posts thanks for the tip

What tariff of penal justice should be applied, do you think for someone who stabs someone? Should a fraudster who brought a business down be given a good kicking? Who gets to apply the justice code? Do burglars get impunity to discipline rapists, but rapists get the moral high ground over kiddy fiddlers?

[Twa Cairpets]

Given you an answer and if you dinnae like it, tough. I'm saying this guy got his just desserts end of

What you said was like answering the question "do youlike cheese" with "cornflakes". An answer traditionally needs to linked to the question for it to be valid.

[M6hibee]

Look I've given you an answer and it's the only one your getting pal so deal wie it. The guy got what he deserved. Don't care about the right and wrongs in this instance, that went out the window when that **** tortured innocent kids. Not ideal that justice is met out by fellow cons but then this is far from a perfect world. He got what he deserved, end of. You can keep pressing, I can tell you fancy yourself as a keyboard intellectual, but that is the only answer your getting

[Twa Cairpets]

Look I've given you an answer and it's the only one your getting pal so deal wie it. The guy got what he deserved. Don't care about the right and wrongs in this instance, that went out the window when that **** tortured innocent kids. Not ideal that justice is met out by fellow cons but then this is far from a perfect world. He got what he deserved, end of. You can keep pressing, I can tell you fancy yourself as a keyboard intellectual, but that is the only answer your getting

No, that's fine, I'm more than happy to accept the fact that you can't answer without making yourself look a bit more of a plum than you have managed so far.

For me, I'm slightly less Old Testament in my outlook than you. One of the prices of democracy and civilisation is that sometimes utter vermin get to exist when by emotional measures they shouldn't. That's a price worth paying as opposed to vigilantism, which you're proposing.

But hey, maybe that's just a symptom of my keyboard intellectualism and liberal wispy-washyness, eh?

[M6hibee]

Yes it is and if I'm a plum your an intellectual wannabe full of his own importance as well as a dick.

[Twa Cairpets]

Yes it is and if I'm a plum your an intellectual wannabe full of his own importance as well as a dick.

Now that's not a very nice thing to say.
If your anger problems caused you to get in a fight and you were sent down for say ABH, what would be an acceptable punishment for the Convict Justice Squad to mete out upon you?

[M6hibee]

Lol you dished it out pal. You seem to have a big problem taking it back don't you? Bye tea cairpets. No doubt you will find a cutting reply and take yersel off tae bed and pleasure yersel tae it. What an intellectual you are!

[Twa Cairpets]

Lol you dished it out pal. You seem to have a big problem taking it back don't you? Bye tea cairpets. No doubt you will find a cutting reply and take yersel off tae bed and pleasure yersel tae it. What an intellectual you are!

Not in the slightest.
I think you'll find it is you who has lowered the tone somewhat on this thread. Why all the anger? All I did was ask a fairly straightforward question which you haven't answered, pulled your chain a bit and you've morphed into some kind of cross between an outraged Hun and the Daily Mail letters page.
But I am going off to bed soon, so you've got one thing right.

[M6hibee]

So when you firstly called me a plum that was ok was it? Think you'll find YOU lowered the tone pal. Can't take what you dish out I suspect

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes it is and if I'm a plum your an intellectual wannabe full of his own importance as well as a dick.

Intelligence is relative and to be honest he's coming across relatively intelligent on this thread ;-)

[Steve-O]

Whilst I can see both sides of the argument, one of my relatives was kidnapped, abused and murdered when I was younger. It took a long time for the guy to be caught and, in the meantime, he murdered others. Because of the nature of his crimes, he gets attacked in prison every so often (e.g. boiling water, knives, screwdrivers). As morally wrong as it may be, I (and a lot of my family) get some satisfaction from the fact that, occasionally, he might be suffering a small fraction of the hell that he put my relative (and others) through.

It is natural to feel that way when it is someone you know, that's not quite the point of what's being debated here.

[--------]

It is natural to feel that way when it is someone you know, that's not quite the point of what's being debated here.


I can fully understand and sympathise with such feelings. I'd feel the same. But as you say, that's not what's being debated here.

Prisons are under the same law as the rest of the country. Convicted criminals have no right to inflict torment on other convicted criminals - it's not about any sense of decency or justice, it's about thugs knowing they're likely to get away with serious assault and even murder, and prison officers turning a blind eye.

[carnoustiehibee]

Doddie you obviously think it's a failing of the justice system but is it a great loss?

[M6hibee]

Intelligence is relative and to be honest he's coming across relatively intelligent on this thread ;-)

Well that's because you agree with him but all the waffle does not detract from the ultimate consideration that this guy got what he deserved. If you and twa want to preach chapter and verse about morals, go ahead. However, this guy got what he deserved. If you looked closely, I never said or advocated mob rule, just opined that guys like this get their comeuppance. Obviously, people like you two then consider it an opportunity to play the clever intellectual (you could always try doing it in reality rather than on a meaningless message board) and obviously engage in a form of intellectual snobbery. Fact is, for all his waffle, it certainly doesn't disguise the fact this **** bag got what he deserved.

I never advocated that mob rule should prevail, never advocated that those who attacked him were heroes. Just considered he got what he deserved and an extension to that, maybe for people like him who commit serious crime, a harsher punishment ( such as the death penalty) should be considered.

If you two want to play the intellectual and try and prove a point, go ahead. Rather sad IMHO. However, I remain of the opinion outlined above and if people think its extreme, fair enough. Nonetheless, I won't shed a tear this guy received 'prison justice' and remain convinced that for those guilty of serious and heinous crimes, more extreme punishment should be considered.

If you think that makes me a caveman or a Hun or a plum or whatever else people like you would tag me, so be it

[Twa Cairpets]

Well that's because you agree with him but all the waffle does not detract from the ultimate consideration that this guy got what he deserved.

I've never one moment suggested I gave the slightest sympathy for what happened to him. It is the manner of its happening that I have an issue with.



If you and twa want to preach chapter and verse about morals, go ahead. However, this guy got what he deserved.

It's less a morality question, more one of adherence to what society has deemed to be a just punishment. Personally, I don't believe in capital punishment, you do, and that's fine and a different argument anyway, but it p!sses me off that someone has decided to take the law (literally, it would seem) into their own hands. We have process and a judicial system for that, and it should not - regardless of the despicable nature of the creature that was killed - be down to convicts to decide on my behalf what "this guy deserved".


If you looked closely, I never said or advocated mob rule, just opined that guys like this get their comeuppance.

But in this case comeuppance was as a result of mob rule. so you are if not advocating it at least condoning it in this circumstance.


Obviously, people like you two then consider it an opportunity to play the clever intellectual (you could always try doing it in reality rather than on a meaningless message board) and obviously engage in a form of intellectual snobbery. Fact is, for all his waffle, it certainly doesn't disguise the fact this **** bag got what he deserved.

Is this a veiled threat? That if "people like us two" were to voice our opinions in "the real world" we'd get what we deserved. While you're correct and any message board is largely pointless, over the years this one has provided some excellent discussion and debate, and provided good info for people who are interested in a diverse range of topics. I don't know what your beef with being perceived as intellectual is. Its not a bad thing and its not snobbery - its applying intellect to a situation and thinking it through, and then discussing it. There are people on this board who are extremely intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable and who make cogent arguments that I 100% disagree with. You seem to think that intellect is by default correlated directly to being some type of bleeding heart liberal - just have a read through some of the threads to see that that simply isn't the case.


I never advocated that mob rule should prevail, never advocated that those who attacked him were heroes. Just considered he got what he deserved and an extension to that, maybe for people like him who commit serious crime, a harsher punishment ( such as the death penalty) should be considered.

If you two want to play the intellectual and try and prove a point, go ahead. Rather sad IMHO. However, I remain of the opinion outlined above and if people think its extreme, fair enough. Nonetheless, I won't shed a tear this guy received 'prison justice' and remain convinced that for those guilty of serious and heinous crimes, more extreme punishment should be considered.

There you go again with "play the intellectual" - strip that bit out and I can understand your point of view.


If you think that makes me a caveman or a Hun or a plum or whatever else people like you would tag me, so be it

I think yours is an entirely understandable knee jerk reaction to what is a more complex situation than it first appears. Anyone who doesn't think first off that "he got what he deserves" is unusually emotionally bereft given his crimes. However just to reiterate, it is the manner of the "justice" meted out that I object to, and not the death of the guy himself.

[M6hibee]

Ok agree to disagree and apologies for any personal slight in this emotive argument. Like I say, we could go around in circles but we hold different, even polarised opinions. Fair enough

[Twa Cairpets]

Ok agree to disagree and apologies for any personal slight in this emotive argument. Like I say, we could go around in circles but we hold different, even polarised opinions. Fair enough

Fair do's