Having Philosophy From Top To Bottom

[JIm]

I've been thinking about this alot on the back of an article i read recently on Swansea and their Chairman Huw Jenkins who took over the role on the back of their near relegation from League 2 to the conference nearly ten years ago. Here is a guy who was forward thinking and had his own beliefs on the way his football club should develop, the type of football his club should play and more importantly an understanding of the type of football the supporters want to see. Over the past decade he has always appointed managers who play a certain style of football i.e an open attractive style that is enjoyable to watch. He has backed his managers on the whole and left them to get on with implementing their style, training methods and beliefs.

It frustrates the hell out of me that we cannot operate in a similar way. If you look at the infrastructure of the club we have everything in place which i'm sure everybody will acknowledge. The ground is complete, the training centre is fantastic (despite this myth that this is the reason we are *****) and we have lots and lots of top quality young players coming through the system. Our chairman runs our club on a tight budget, our finances have been looked after extremely well and i actually believe to a degree that we have invested enough over the past few years in terms of players. We are regularly one of the higher spenders in terms of wages etc. However his managerial appointments leave alot to be desired, there is no real pattern in terms of the who we have appointed over the past decade, some managers who want to get the ball down, some who were to inexperienced, some who are tactically inept, some who want to be more difficult to beat.

I believe that it is time for the clubs board of directors to get together, think about this whole idea and come up with a plan of action to appoint managers based on some of the following factors:

- Must play football on the deck (i don't mean all out attack and easy to pick off) but have an idea of the style that we want to play.
- A manager who believes and trusts in bringing youth players through
- A manager who does not kick the ball out of the park straight from kick off
- A manager who takes responsibility for when things are not going well on the park
- A manager who does not alter from his philosophy and is patient

The above is only touching the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we should look for but i believe it would be a start. Our clubs needs a vision, it needs a style, something that people recognise us for and something that the fans will buy in to.

Swansea City is one of many examples that we could look at but in terms of their recent succes think that they are an excellent comparison of what can be achieved with the right plans in place.

I currently see a manager who has steadied the ship on the whole and generally made us hard to beat, his signings are decent however he has a lack of awareness tactically, he switches things about too much on the park with no effect, he blames players and does not take responsibility for his own wrongdoings, seems scared to give youngsters a proper chance, thus far has failed to play the type of football i want and expect this club to play.

We as a club need to change and implement a vision that we can all work towards. Time, patience, hard work and right ideas could take us to the next level.

I don't want to go on and on here as this thread could be ten times the size but keen to get folks thoughts?

[DaveF]

Not a lot to disagree with in that post.

We do have everything in place but I wonder if the desire to see us as a club become a regular challenger at the top end of the table is really there from those ultimately in charge. Petrie and Farmer seem comfortable with us bobbing along with our heads barely above water. If they can't \ don't \ won't or are simply unable to implement a winning mentality throughout the club, then we should be actively seeking a new owever who will.

I'm not expecting us to win the league every year but for a club with our resources, the level of under achievement is staggering.

[Treadstone]

Personally I have always been a Rod man. However he must have no say in managerial appointments.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Personally I have always been a Rod man. However he must have no say in managerial appointments.



this

[hibsbollah]

As far as i know the last manager who tried to do the 'philosophy' thing ( from up to date training and coaching software to cheezy inspirational posters in the dressing room) was Mowbray. Collins you can argue about but the others since then havent seemed to think any further than tactics for the first 11.

[RIP]

People interested in this topic need to get themselves along to a Let's Work Together meeting at Easter Road

It was one of the first initiatives kicked off with the Board in the summer of last year

It's a big project with a working group but more volunteers are always welcome

Next meeting tomorrow, West Stand, 5.45 pm with guest speaker Bill Hendry

[worcesterhibby]

That's all very well, but the key reason that Swansea have moved up the divisions is that money has been pumped in and he has put the cash up to pay for good managers and pay for good players. In many ways Hibs have done everything the same, except we can't afford to pay for top quality managers and players. Rod has obviously been searching for the right manager and has tried a few different options...Let's look at his choices..

Alex Mcleish - Young Hungry and the right philosophy (at the time)
Franck Sauzee - Fans favourite, but Hibs were a shadow of their former selves without him in the team.
Blobby - Bloody dire but a safe-ish pair of hands that did stop us getting relegated.
Tony Mowbray - young, hungry and the right philosophy(at the time),
John Collins - Young Hungry and the right philosophy
Mixu - Young, Hungry but perhaps with a flawed philosophy
Yogi Hughes - young, hungry and started with the right philosophy
Colin Calderwood - The first real departure from the Young Hungry brigade..seemed to offer experience and maturity..was was total carp
Pat Fenlon - Young, Hungry and yet also experienced and a proven winner...yes he is a proven winner in a league (apparently) inferior to our own, but if it was a league superior to our own we couldn't afford him.

To me there is a Philosophy behind most of those appointments...go for young hungry guys who want to play the right brand of football. I'd say 6 out of the 9 fit that description to an extent. The departures from that philosophy were Blobby (to stop us getting relegated), Mixu..(his brand of football was too direct) and Calderwood (who I'm sure talked the talk in the interview, but was a bag of ***** in the job)

Let's not forget we have finished in 10th and 11th for the last two seasons. We were pretty low and Fenlon has improved things..are we the finished article ? No. Are we on the very begginings to the road to recovery..yes I think we are.

[matty_f]

I've been thinking about this alot on the back of an article i read recently on Swansea and their Chairman Huw Jenkins who took over the role on the back of their near relegation from League 2 to the conference nearly ten years ago. Here is a guy who was forward thinking and had his own beliefs on the way his football club should develop, the type of football his club should play and more importantly an understanding of the type of football the supporters want to see. Over the past decade he has always appointed managers who play a certain style of football i.e an open attractive style that is enjoyable to watch. He has backed his managers on the whole and left them to get on with implementing their style, training methods and beliefs.

It frustrates the hell out of me that we cannot operate in a similar way. If you look at the infrastructure of the club we have everything in place which i'm sure everybody will acknowledge. The ground is complete, the training centre is fantastic (despite this myth that this is the reason we are *****) and we have lots and lots of top quality young players coming through the system. Our chairman runs our club on a tight budget, our finances have been looked after extremely well and i actually believe to a degree that we have invested enough over the past few years in terms of players. We are regularly one of the higher spenders in terms of wages etc. However his managerial appointments leave alot to be desired, there is no real pattern in terms of the who we have appointed over the past decade, some managers who want to get the ball down, some who were to inexperienced, some who are tactically inept, some who want to be more difficult to beat.

I believe that it is time for the clubs board of directors to get together, think about this whole idea and come up with a plan of action to appoint managers based on some of the following factors:

- Must play football on the deck (i don't mean all out attack and easy to pick off) but have an idea of the style that we want to play.
- A manager who believes and trusts in bringing youth players through
- A manager who does not kick the ball out of the park straight from kick off
- A manager who takes responsibility for when things are not going well on the park
- A manager who does not alter from his philosophy and is patient

The above is only touching the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we should look for but i believe it would be a start. Our clubs needs a vision, it needs a style, something that people recognise us for and something that the fans will buy in to.

Swansea City is one of many examples that we could look at but in terms of their recent succes think that they are an excellent comparison of what can be achieved with the right plans in place.

I currently see a manager who has steadied the ship on the whole and generally made us hard to beat, his signings are decent however he has a lack of awareness tactically, he switches things about too much on the park with no effect, he blames players and does not take responsibility for his own wrongdoings, seems scared to give youngsters a proper chance, thus far has failed to play the type of football i want and expect this club to play.

We as a club need to change and implement a vision that we can all work towards. Time, patience, hard work and right ideas could take us to the next level.

I don't want to go on and on here as this thread could be ten times the size but keen to get folks thoughts?


Not a lot to disagree with in that post.

We do have everything in place but I wonder if the desire to see us as a club become a regular challenger at the top end of the table is really there from those ultimately in charge. Petrie and Farmer seem comfortable with us bobbing along with our heads barely above water. If they can't \ don't \ won't or are simply unable to implement a winning mentality throughout the club, then we should be actively seeking a new owever who will.

I'm not expecting us to win the league every year but for a club with our resources, the level of under achievement is staggering.


People interested in this topic need to get themselves along to a Let's Work Together meeting at Easter Road

It was one of the first initiatives kicked off with the Board in the summer of last year

It's a big project with a working group but more volunteers are always welcome

Next meeting tomorrow, West Stand, 5.45 pm with guest speaker Bill Hendry

First of all, excellent post Jim - can't really disagree with any of it.

As Gogs has alluded to here, there is ongoing work happening in the background at Hibs and with LWT to address this very thing. It's not at a stage where it can go out en mass to everyone, however there will be an update at the LWT meeting tomorrow evening.

[Leishy1995]

Stoke City got promoted to the premier league, they then made theirself hard to beat. They have probably never spent more than 10 million on a player. They have recently started adding to the hard to beat style by making their team play with a bit of flair and skill. This is what I hope we are doing.

Swansea are a club with consistency, their managers leave and aren't pushed. Players are brought into the squad to add to the current group, Michu was 2 million pounds. Thinking BPL standards that is an excellent deal.

[Hibby Bairn]

Great post and totally agree.

Do we coach our 12 and 13 year old young uns to blooter the ball up towards the front man? What about 14 and 15 yr olds? 16-19 yr olds?

Do we encourage them to pass the ball back from a kick off and blooter it in the general direction of the opposing left back deep in opposition territory?

Do we play 4-5-1, 4-4-2, 4-3-3?

Do we coach the young uns pass and move with a quick tempo, intensity, win the ball back as soon as we lose it at all age groups?

Don't know the answer to these but I'd be amazed if the answers aren't "No"; "No"; 4-4-2 or 4-3-3; and "Yes".

So why don't we do the same with the first team?

I'd love to know the stats last night of how many times our defenders "passed" the ball through the air more than 30 yds. I'd also like to know how many time we had a shot at goal from INSIDE the St Johnstone 18 yard box.

I think this is all about philosophy and the "way we play" football at Hibs. From 11 yr olds to First team and everything in between. The transitional support and impact made by new youngsters breaking into first team football over past 5 years has been absolutely shocking.

[lord bunberry]

That's all very well, but the key reason that Swansea have moved up the divisions is that money has been pumped in and he has put the cash up to pay for good managers and pay for good players. In many ways Hibs have done everything the same, except we can't afford to pay for top quality managers and players. Rod has obviously been searching for the right manager and has tried a few different options...Let's look at his choices..

Alex Mcleish - Young Hungry and the right philosophy (at the time)
Franck Sauzee - Fans favourite, but Hibs were a shadow of their former selves without him in the team.
Blobby - Bloody dire but a safe-ish pair of hands that did stop us getting relegated.
Tony Mowbray - young, hungry and the right philosophy(at the time),
John Collins - Young Hungry and the right philosophy
Mixu - Young, Hungry but perhaps with a flawed philosophy
Yogi Hughes - young, hungry and started with the right philosophy
Colin Calderwood - The first real departure from the Young Hungry brigade..seemed to offer experience and maturity..was was total carp
Pat Fenlon - Young, Hungry and yet also experienced and a proven winner...yes he is a proven winner in a league (apparently) inferior to our own, but if it was a league superior to our own we couldn't afford him.

To me there is a Philosophy behind most of those appointments...go for young hungry guys who want to play the right brand of football. I'd say 6 out of the 9 fit that description to an extent. The departures from that philosophy were Blobby (to stop us getting relegated), Mixu..(his brand of football was too direct) and Calderwood (who I'm sure talked the talk in the interview, but was a bag of ***** in the job)

Let's not forget we have finished in 10th and 11th for the last two seasons. We were pretty low and Fenlon has improved things..are we the finished article ? No. Are we on the very begginings to the road to recovery..yes I think we are.

The point is though that we need to be teaching the kids to play a certain type of football. It must be the same as they'll be playing when they are in the 1st team. It doesn't really mater who the manager is he only has to continue the philosophy of the club.

[JIm]

That's all very well, but the key reason that Swansea have moved up the divisions is that money has been pumped in and he has put the cash up to pay for good managers and pay for good players. In many ways Hibs have done everything the same, except we can't afford to pay for top quality managers and players. Rod has obviously been searching for the right manager and has tried a few different options...Let's look at his choices..

Alex Mcleish - Young Hungry and the right philosophy (at the time)
Franck Sauzee - Fans favourite, but Hibs were a shadow of their former selves without him in the team.
Blobby - Bloody dire but a safe-ish pair of hands that did stop us getting relegated.
Tony Mowbray - young, hungry and the right philosophy(at the time),
John Collins - Young Hungry and the right philosophy
Mixu - Young, Hungry but perhaps with a flawed philosophy
Yogi Hughes - young, hungry and started with the right philosophy
Colin Calderwood - The first real departure from the Young Hungry brigade..seemed to offer experience and maturity..was was total carp
Pat Fenlon - Young, Hungry and yet also experienced and a proven winner...yes he is a proven winner in a league (apparently) inferior to our own, but if it was a league superior to our own we couldn't afford him.

To me there is a Philosophy behind most of those appointments...go for young hungry guys who want to play the right brand of football. I'd say 6 out of the 9 fit that description to an extent. The departures from that philosophy were Blobby (to stop us getting relegated), Mixu..(his brand of football was too direct) and Calderwood (who I'm sure talked the talk in the interview, but was a bag of ***** in the job)

Let's not forget we have finished in 10th and 11th for the last two seasons. We were pretty low and Fenlon has improved things..are we the finished article ? No. Are we on the very begginings to the road to recovery..yes I think we are.

I think you are missing the point in terms of what I am getting at. Yes Swansea have pumped some money in but nothing in comparison to a top EPL team. In comparison to many others in Scotland we are that big team and have the resources to compete at the right end of the table.

I don't want to see us appointing managers as they tick some boxes, they should meet a full criteria that is pre set for managers coming in.

Regarding the academy the youth teams are guided by a fantastic group of coaches on the whole. They are taught to play football the correct way and compete in the right manner. My issue is that many of our recent managers are reluctant to give the young lads a chance and instead pay out on third rate 2nd tier English league players. We all saw what happened the last time we were patient with a group of kids coming through the academy, the most exciting brand of football (eventually) that we have seen in the past 10-20 years arguably? Ajax base success on bringing a player through from the Academy and selling them on to a top league in Europe. If its good enough a club like Ajax then why not us?

I just want to see us leading the way, doing what is best for our club, sadly i see failure after failure and am as desperate to see it change as anyone.

Final note on a work in progress - well that goes without saying, but are we progressing the way that we should be? yes we are hard to beat at times, but i have seen no improvement whatsoever to suggest that we are going to go on and be a passing attack minded team, its well documented the long balls up to the lone striker, narrow midfields, lack of support to join in attacks.

I heard that at at the recent AGM an elderly gentleman raised the point with PF about our style of play and was applauded by the majority of the room. PF then dodged this by giving the old politician answer of work in progress etc etc and never actually came out with what his vision was for the way we should play (perhaps someone could clarify this point?)

[jacomo]

People interested in this topic need to get themselves along to a Let's Work Together meeting at Easter Road

It was one of the first initiatives kicked off with the Board in the summer of last year

It's a big project with a working group but more volunteers are always welcome

Next meeting tomorrow, West Stand, 5.45 pm with guest speaker Bill Hendry

Was this the event at which Scott Lindsay said the club were trying to work out what its values were?

We need genuine leadership at the club, but failing that, copying Swansea's approach wholesale would be the place to start.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

The way I see it is that Hibernian, in the supporters eyes, should be about flair, creativity, exciting free flowing football. The Williamson era was awful. Mowbray was a breath of fresh air and brought the fans back in their numbers (even though he never won anything!)

Mowbray was aligned with the view the supporters have of the way they want Hibs to play.

When we have a manager in place who is not aligned then we have performances like last night with increased disconnection to the support.

For me we should be clear about our philosophy, culture, values...essentially the Hibernian way. Get that right, throughout the club, and this should be the template for recruitment of future managers, players, coaches etc

It's what the supporters want so why not pander to your customer base? Win win surely?

IMO

[worcesterhibby]

I think you are missing the point in terms of what I am getting at. Yes Swansea have pumped some money in but nothing in comparison to a top EPL team. In comparison to many others in Scotland we are that big team and have the resources to compete at the right end of the table.

I don't want to see us appointing managers as they tick some boxes, they should meet a full criteria that is pre set for managers coming in.

Regarding the academy the youth teams are guided by a fantastic group of coaches on the whole. They are taught to play football the correct way and compete in the right manner. My issue is that many of our recent managers are reluctant to give the young lads a chance and instead pay out on third rate 2nd tier English league players. We all saw what happened the last time we were patient with a group of kids coming through the academy, the most exciting brand of football (eventually) that we have seen in the past 10-20 years arguably? Ajax base success on bringing a player through from the Academy and selling them on to a top league in Europe. If its good enough a club like Ajax then why not us?

I just want to see us leading the way, doing what is best for our club, sadly i see failure after failure and am as desperate to see it change as anyone.

Final note on a work in progress - well that goes without saying, but are we progressing the way that we should be? yes we are hard to beat at times, but i have seen no improvement whatsoever to suggest that we are going to go on and be a passing attack minded team, its well documented the long balls up to the lone striker, narrow midfields, lack of support to join in attacks.

I heard that at at the recent AGM an elderly gentleman raised the point with PF about our style of play and was applauded by the majority of the room. PF then dodged this by giving the old politician answer of work in progress etc etc and never actually came out with what his vision was for the way we should play (perhaps someone could clarify this point?)

Yes it sounds great in principal, but can you imagine what the majority of the support would be saying if we had signed no one at the start of the season and no one in the window and just played the kids ? They would have been hung out to dry.

[JIm]

Yes it sounds great in principal, but can you imagine what the majority of the support would be saying if we had signed no one at the start of the season and no one in the window and just played the kids ? They would have been hung out to dry.

Again that is not what i'm saying, there is a place for both, making the right signings and providing enough opportunities to kids to progress providing they show they have the ability, it works in other countries throughout the world, why not here?

However if the correct principles are in place and the opportunities continually arrive recruitment of younger players would improve even more i.e most talented from throughout Scotland. Celtic are seeing this and within the last couple of years have set up their own school of football. Something that Hibs should tap in to through here and could have massive benefits for talented players.

Its time that we recognised where we are and come up with a plan to change for the better and for the future.

[.Sean.]

I've been thinking about this alot on the back of an article i read recently on Swansea and their Chairman Huw Jenkins who took over the role on the back of their near relegation from League 2 to the conference nearly ten years ago. Here is a guy who was forward thinking and had his own beliefs on the way his football club should develop, the type of football his club should play and more importantly an understanding of the type of football the supporters want to see. Over the past decade he has always appointed managers who play a certain style of football i.e an open attractive style that is enjoyable to watch. He has backed his managers on the whole and left them to get on with implementing their style, training methods and beliefs.

It frustrates the hell out of me that we cannot operate in a similar way. If you look at the infrastructure of the club we have everything in place which i'm sure everybody will acknowledge. The ground is complete, the training centre is fantastic (despite this myth that this is the reason we are *****) and we have lots and lots of top quality young players coming through the system. Our chairman runs our club on a tight budget, our finances have been looked after extremely well and i actually believe to a degree that we have invested enough over the past few years in terms of players. We are regularly one of the higher spenders in terms of wages etc. However his managerial appointments leave alot to be desired, there is no real pattern in terms of the who we have appointed over the past decade, some managers who want to get the ball down, some who were to inexperienced, some who are tactically inept, some who want to be more difficult to beat.

I believe that it is time for the clubs board of directors to get together, think about this whole idea and come up with a plan of action to appoint managers based on some of the following factors:

- Must play football on the deck (i don't mean all out attack and easy to pick off) but have an idea of the style that we want to play.
- A manager who believes and trusts in bringing youth players through
- A manager who does not kick the ball out of the park straight from kick off
- A manager who takes responsibility for when things are not going well on the park
- A manager who does not alter from his philosophy and is patient

The above is only touching the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we should look for but i believe it would be a start. Our clubs needs a vision, it needs a style, something that people recognise us for and something that the fans will buy in to.

Swansea City is one of many examples that we could look at but in terms of their recent succes think that they are an excellent comparison of what can be achieved with the right plans in place.

I currently see a manager who has steadied the ship on the whole and generally made us hard to beat, his signings are decent however he has a lack of awareness tactically, he switches things about too much on the park with no effect, he blames players and does not take responsibility for his own wrongdoings, seems scared to give youngsters a proper chance, thus far has failed to play the type of football i want and expect this club to play.

We as a club need to change and implement a vision that we can all work towards. Time, patience, hard work and right ideas could take us to the next level.

I don't want to go on and on here as this thread could be ten times the size but keen to get folks thoughts?

Great post A :aok:


Or is it Jim these days? :greengrin

[worcesterhibby]

Again that is not what i'm saying, there is a place for both, making the right signings and providing enough opportunities to kids to progress providing they show they have the ability, it works in other countries throughout the world, why not here?

However if the correct principles are in place and the opportunities continually arrive recruitment of younger players would improve even more i.e most talented from throughout Scotland. Celtic are seeing this and within the last couple of years have set up their own school of football. Something that Hibs should tap in to through here and could have massive benefits for talented players.

Its time that we recognised where we are and come up with a plan to change for the better and for the future.

Ok so let's establish what you are really saying....

we should always play attractive free flowing football, even if it means getting beat
we should add a couple of youth players to the first team squad

But we do have players that have come through the youth system in our team. Wotherspoon came through the ranks as did Hanlon and Stevenson. Danny Handling is getting games now and Ross Caldwell has had first team chances this year. Alex Harris has had a subs appearance this season and Jordan Foster and Brad Donaldson have both made the subs bench. They have all had chances. Hanlon, Stevenson and Wotherspoon are regulars. Handling is likely to get more starts and Caldwell failed to really make an impact when he came on as a sub and has been given the chance to get more gametime experience by going out on loan. So that's 3 regular starters from the academy and at least a couple of others pushing on. Which other academy players specifically would you put in the first team and who would you drop to accomodate them ?

I don't disagree with the overall content of most of what you are saying..I just think we are actually doing it (apart from the free flowing football at all costs bit).

[lord bunberry]

Yes in the future we should be playing free flowing football even if it means getting beat. We need to start again from the very bottom level of the academy teaching the kids to play with skill and pace. These kids will then form the basis of future 1st teams with a few more experienced players being added each year. When a new manager comes in he would have to meet the criteria set down by the club. It won't work every season but most fans would be behind it and it couldn't possibly be any worse than what we've had to put up with for the last few years

[cocopops1875]

That's all very well, but the key reason that Swansea have moved up the divisions is that money has been pumped in and he has put the cash up to pay for good managers and pay for good players. In many ways Hibs have done everything the same, except we can't afford to pay for top quality managers and players. Rod has obviously been searching for the right manager and has tried a few different options...Let's look at his choices..

Alex Mcleish - Young Hungry and the right philosophy (at the time)
Franck Sauzee - Fans favourite, but Hibs were a shadow of their former selves without him in the team.
Blobby - Bloody dire but a safe-ish pair of hands that did stop us getting relegated.
Tony Mowbray - young, hungry and the right philosophy(at the time),
John Collins - Young Hungry and the right philosophy
Mixu - Young, Hungry but perhaps with a flawed philosophy
Yogi Hughes - young, hungry and started with the right philosophy
Colin Calderwood - The first real departure from the Young Hungry brigade..seemed to offer experience and maturity..was was total carp
Pat Fenlon - Young, Hungry and yet also experienced and a proven winner...yes he is a proven winner in a league (apparently) inferior to our own, but if it was a league superior to our own we couldn't afford him.

To me there is a Philosophy behind most of those appointments...go for young hungry guys who want to play the right brand of football. I'd say 6 out of the 9 fit that description to an extent. The departures from that philosophy were Blobby (to stop us getting relegated), Mixu..(his brand of football was too direct) and Calderwood (who I'm sure talked the talk in the interview, but was a bag of ***** in the job)

Let's not forget we have finished in 10th and 11th for the last two seasons. We were pretty low and Fenlon has improved things..are we the finished article ? No. Are we on the very begginings to the road to recovery..yes I think we are.

:top marks i could not Agree more Sir

[JIm]

Ok so let's establish what you are really saying....

we should always play attractive free flowing football, even if it means getting beat
we should add a couple of youth players to the first team squad

But we do have players that have come through the youth system in our team. Wotherspoon came through the ranks as did Hanlon and Stevenson. Danny Handling is getting games now and Ross Caldwell has had first team chances this year. Alex Harris has had a subs appearance this season and Jordan Foster and Brad Donaldson have both made the subs bench. They have all had chances. Hanlon, Stevenson and Wotherspoon are regulars. Handling is likely to get more starts and Caldwell failed to really make an impact when he came on as a sub and has been given the chance to get more gametime experience by going out on loan. So that's 3 regular starters from the academy and at least a couple of others pushing on. Which other academy players specifically would you put in the first team and who would you drop to accomodate them ?

I don't disagree with the overall content of most of what you are saying..I just think we are actually doing it (apart from the free flowing football at all costs bit).

Ill quickly clarify your first couple of points:

1. We should have a set philosophy on how we play, as clubs like Man Utd, Barcalona, Ajax have. It goes without saying that not every game is winnable. Take Monday for example. If that result had occurred during the Mowbray era i am pretty confident that i would have left the ground disappointed, however i'm sure it would have been entertaining, i would have seen young players getting a chance and the overall product would have been much better.

2. Young players should be given an opportunity ahead of sub average signings. We should be looking to have a quorum of our squad coming through the academy and once they reach a certain level sold on to higher leagues with a ready made replacement in the waiting. This is how clubs with a good academy structure operate, Ajax being the best example currently.

Looking at the youngsters you mentioned above:

Ross Caldwell - has looked decent every time i have seen him, he's a handful to play against and gives defenders something to think about. I'd certainly much rather see him play than Kuqi. Also banged them in for fun at 20s and below.
Danny Handling - has had a few opportunities, however he is a striker not a winger. Why does Fenlon persist with playing him out of position? Again banged them in alongside Caldwell.
Alex Harris - a couple of sub appearances. Barely a look in recently.
Brad Donaldson - on bench no first team appearances.
Jordan Forster - out on loan just now i believe.
Dean Horribine - very talented two footed player, not been given a chance (when we are crying out for a creative midfield player)

I suppose it comes down to what you deem as success. Stevenson, Hanlon and Wotherspoon have now been about for at least three years each (which is great). However no one else has really been given a proper opportunity outwith maybe Calum Booth.

Again it comes down to what people deem to as success. I would be alot more patient if i saw things being done in the right manner. The Kuqi example is one of the best there is. who would you rather watch, Caldwell or him? I know myself and just about every other person would prefer to see Ross being given a chance.

Looking back at the the "golden generation" we brough through. They progressed because they were provided with a platform to do so. Like many more would if clubs and managers could see the bigger picture. Why thrown money at something if you are to scared to used it?

[WhileTheChief..]

Petrie's philosophy on recruiting managers is that the Hibs' job should be the biggest of their career so far.

I'd rather we went for someone who has managed at a higher level than us before.

[Hiber-nation]

Jordan Forster - out on loan just now i believe.


He was on the bench on Monday.

Good opening post by the way :aok:

[JIm]

He was on the bench on Monday.

Good opening post by the way :aok:

Cheers, didn't realise he was back.

[worcesterhibby]

The Kuqi example is one of the best there is. who would you rather watch, Caldwell or him? I know myself and just about every other person would prefer to see Ross being given a chance.


Except if you check the facts Caldwell has had exactly the same amount of game time as Kuqi both have had one start and 12 subs appearances in the league. Neither has scored. There is no doubt that Kuqi was a poor buy, but to be fair he's one of the few poor buys that Fenlon has made. His other buys have been pretty good when you consider we have paid squat all for any of them and our wages are about £5 a week.

Look Fenlon has managed to sign the following players who have ALL made us a better team:

Ben Williams (HUGE improvement on last 10 years worth of goalies)
McPake (universally welcomed as captain, having a tough few weeks but so do almost all footballers at some point)
Tim Clancy (injury proneness a worry but better than we had)
Ryan McGivern (class)
Gary Deegan (given us the bite we needed)
Jorge Claros (our best passer of the ball)
Leigh Griffiths (2nd top scorer in league)
Paul Cairney (our most creative player)

He has also signed the following players that still have to prove themselves worthy of the shirt

Tom Taiwo (hard worker certainly better than some we had last season)
Eion Doyle (hard worker but does he have enough in his locker ? low on confidence right now)
Alan Maybury (works hard but lacks pace..probably still better than we had 2 years ago though)
Scott Robertson (we'll see but former Scotland International)
Matt Done (early glimpses look good)

He has also signed the following who well bad buys

Kujabi (talented going forward but a bombscare at the back)
Kuqi (had it)

in addition to all that we have signed Liam Craig for next season who most on here welcome as another good addition.

He has also fully integrated Wotherspoon, Stevenson, Hanlon (whose having his best season for us) and is starting to bring in Handling and Caldwell.

unfortunately football and management is all about results. It is VERY VERY tough for a manager to stick his neck out and say he will play a certain style of football no matter what and also play the Kids..no matter what. All he can do is try to replace bad players with better ones (which Fenlon has done) and integrate youth players into the team at the right time when they are supported by experienced team mates (which he has done).

If Hibs could depend on 12,000 to turn up each week to watch youth players trying to pass it about in the hope that we would benefit in three maybe four years..they would. For one thing it would clear the debt. But they can't because we would get 6,000 if we were 10th or 11th..which we would be if we played a team that was based around 6 or 7 of our Academy players.

Please tell me which of the following players should be replaced by academy players

Ben Williams
McPake
Tim Clancy
Ryan McGivern
Gary Deegan
Jorge Claros
Leigh Griffiths
Paul Cairney

Stevenson and Wotherspoon and Hanlon normally get a game anyway so that's the main basis of the team.

Good debate by the way:greengrin

[worcesterhibby]

Petrie's philosophy on recruiting managers is that the Hibs' job should be the biggest of their career so far.

I'd rather we went for someone who has managed at a higher level than us before.

Such as Nottingham Forest Boss Colin Calderwood ?

[JIm]

Except if you check the facts Caldwell has had exactly the same amount of game time as Kuqi both have had one start and 12 subs appearances in the league. Neither has scored. There is no doubt that Kuqi was a poor buy, but to be fair he's one of the few poor buys that Fenlon has made. His other buys have been pretty good when you consider we have paid squat all for any of them and our wages are about £5 a week.

Look Fenlon has managed to sign the following players who have ALL made us a better team:

Ben Williams (HUGE improvement on last 10 years worth of goalies)
McPake (universally welcomed as captain, having a tough few weeks but so do almost all footballers at some point)
Tim Clancy (injury proneness a worry but better than we had)
Ryan McGivern (class)
Gary Deegan (given us the bite we needed)
Jorge Claros (our best passer of the ball)
Leigh Griffiths (2nd top scorer in league)
Paul Cairney (our most creative player)

He has also signed the following players that still have to prove themselves worthy of the shirt

Tom Taiwo (hard worker certainly better than some we had last season)
Eion Doyle (hard worker but does he have enough in his locker ? low on confidence right now)
Alan Maybury (works hard but lacks pace..probably still better than we had 2 years ago though)
Scott Robertson (we'll see but former Scotland International)
Matt Done (early glimpses look good)

He has also signed the following who well bad buys

Kujabi (talented going forward but a bombscare at the back)
Kuqi (had it)

in addition to all that we have signed Liam Craig for next season who most on here welcome as another good addition.

He has also fully integrated Wotherspoon, Stevenson, Hanlon (whose having his best season for us) and is starting to bring in Handling and Caldwell.

unfortunately football and management is all about results. It is VERY VERY tough for a manager to stick his neck out and say he will play a certain style of football no matter what and also play the Kids..no matter what. All he can do is try to replace bad players with better ones (which Fenlon has done) and integrate youth players into the team at the right time when they are supported by experienced team mates (which he has done).

If Hibs could depend on 12,000 to turn up each week to watch youth players trying to pass it about in the hope that we would benefit in three maybe four years..they would. For one thing it would clear the debt. But they can't because we would get 6,000 if we were 10th or 11th..which we would be if we played a team that was based around 6 or 7 of our Academy players.

Please tell me which of the following players should be replaced by academy players

Ben Williams
McPake
Tim Clancy
Ryan McGivern
Gary Deegan
Jorge Claros
Leigh Griffiths
Paul Cairney

Stevenson and Wotherspoon and Hanlon normally get a game anyway so that's the main basis of the team.

Good debate by the way:greengrin

Its an excellent debate and one that has to be had by more for people to see the long term benefits :top marks

Interesting info regards Caldwell/Kuqi, i hadn't realised that, however i would still back my original point of view that Caldwell has deserved more opportunities and has shown more than Kuqi.

Regard signings again i cannot really argue, as stated before (i think) his signings on the whole have been pretty decent. Although i would argue that if there are youngsters waiting in the wings who are capable they should be given priority over bringing in new players. The key word here being capable/ready

On to the crux of the matter again, you state "It is VERY VERY tough for a manager to stick his neck out and say he will play a certain style of football no matter what and also play the Kids..no matter what." For me this is the main point of my argument, this should not be preset by the manager, it should be a strategy that has been put in place by the board of directors and a manager comes in to support/develop this. I'm not saying it is possible to do this overnight, plans and strategies have to be put in place, but given time it is what the club should be working towards. Players should also be developed so that when the come to the ages of 17-21 they are ready for first team as they are in other countries. (when i say ready i mean to compete within the SPL standard)

When it comes to style of play open expansive football is not the only requisite, styles/systems can be adapted and altered to work as it is not one dimentional. Any manager with the right experience will be able to adapt it to work but still stick to the ethos of what the club promotes.

If this is somethign that was developed i have no doubt the majority of the support would be willing to back this. It is not something that can be changed overnight, it would be revolutionary for a club in this country to do this, however why not be the first? Why not set the bar and let others follow. As i've said before if it works in other countries why not ours? i.e Holland, Germany, South America etc

We need to move away from the mindset that we should be competing for every trophy now, if things are done properly we would naturally move towards competing in all competitions we enter. However patience, planning, strategy, working together as one are key.

Would you be willing to sacrifice another few years of mediocrity to develop a formula that would re-shape the future of the club? I would.

[worcesterhibby]

Would you be willing to sacrifice another few years of mediocrity to develop a formula that would re-shape the future of the club? I would.

Yes I would, but that's easy for me to say as I live too far away to make the matches regularly so don't have a season ticket and don't put my money where my mouth is. I'm afraid I don't think most fans would stand for it, they would see it as a "RP cheapskate tactic" if there wasn't decent improvement within 6 months. Hibs fans don't tolerate us being in the bottom half of the league, and would stay away in numbers if the signings didn't come and the results were bad. The pressure would be intense on the young boys being asked to carry the can.

If things are to change we need a bigger cultural change around what we expect from our football in Scotland. I know what schoolboy football is like...it's survival of the fittest and those that have the bulk and the speed are the ones that succeed. My lad used to go to 3 different football clubs..all three were the same. I taught him to pass, pass, pass as he grew up so he does it instinctively, but put him in an under 12 youth team and as soon as he gets the ball it's "control,pass" like I taught him. Trouble is he NEVER got it back, every one else either lost it or just went on a headless run or hoofed it for their fast/big players to chase. Across the board kids are not taught to play the proper way and it shows in our SPL...put every team bar Celtic up against opposition from countries like Estonia, lithuania, Poland and Czech Republic..(let alone Spain, Holland, Germany and France) and we just can't keep the ball..we have seen it again and again over the last 15 years. What we need is a pyramid of nationwide youth leagues played in the summer on grass and in the winter indoors. Rules would be that 6 members of the team have to touch the ball without the opposition touching it before a goal can be scored. The games should be small sided, but with the numbers increasing as the kids get older and move up a category. 5 a side to start with, then 6 a side, then 8 a side and only finally when they are say 16 do they play 11 a side on a full size pitch. Unless we FORCE are kids to start playing possession football we will never improve.

Unfortunatley, Hibs doing it alone won't be enough, we need a bigger pool of players to choose from and we need to be playing against teams who also want to pass the ball, not clog it and chase it.

Were on the same Hymn Sheet, we just disagree about how simple it would be to actually change things.

[JIm]

Yes I would, but that's easy for me to say as I live too far away to make the matches regularly so don't have a season ticket and don't put my money where my mouth is. I'm afraid I don't think most fans would stand for it, they would see it as a "RP cheapskate tactic" if there wasn't decent improvement within 6 months. Hibs fans don't tolerate us being in the bottom half of the league, and would stay away in numbers if the signings didn't come and the results were bad. The pressure would be intense on the young boys being asked to carry the can.

If things are to change we need a bigger cultural change around what we expect from our football in Scotland. I know what schoolboy football is like...it's survival of the fittest and those that have the bulk and the speed are the ones that succeed. My lad used to go to 3 different football clubs..all three were the same. I taught him to pass, pass, pass as he grew up so he does it instinctively, but put him in an under 12 youth team and as soon as he gets the ball it's "control,pass" like I taught him. Trouble is he NEVER got it back, every one else either lost it or just went on a headless run or hoofed it for their fast/big players to chase. Across the board kids are not taught to play the proper way and it shows in our SPL...put every team bar Celtic up against opposition from countries like Estonia, lithuania, Poland and Czech Republic..(let alone Spain, Holland, Germany and France) and we just can't keep the ball..we have seen it again and again over the last 15 years. What we need is a pyramid of nationwide youth leagues played in the summer on grass and in the winter indoors. Rules would be that 6 members of the team have to touch the ball without the opposition touching it before a goal can be scored. The games should be small sided, but with the numbers increasing as the kids get older and move up a category. 5 a side to start with, then 6 a side, then 8 a side and only finally when they are say 16 do they play 11 a side on a full size pitch. Unless we FORCE are kids to start playing possession football we will never improve.

Unfortunatley, Hibs doing it alone won't be enough, we need a bigger pool of players to choose from and we need to be playing against teams who also want to pass the ball, not clog it and chase it.

Were on the same Hymn Sheet, we just disagree about how simple it would be to actually change things.

Its interesting where we now find ourselves from where the original post started in terms that we are working right back to grassroots again.

Player Pathway - Scottish FA introduced this few years ago, 4s-7s-11s (a start) and is now the pathway throughout Scotland. This means that every kid is playing the same game at the same age in every region. A massive step forward. Consultation takes place every year via the Scottish Youth FA on potential changes to rules etc.

In terms of player development it comes back to a win at all costs mentality with many children's/youth coaches. Kids are taught how to play the game correctly by many good coaches throughout the country, however when it comes to 11 aside the mentality changes both with coaches/parents and to a degree players(not all but many) and development goes out the window.

I suppose what it comes down to is changing a mentality and the culture within our country? Is it every going to happen? Who knows. But we won't know if we don't try it. Again i understand it won't be easy but i know that Hibs do have an opportunity where they could implement this change.

Couple of examples - The academy already caters for kids ages all the way through to U20s. The pathway is in place if you are talented enough, they are getting more training than they do at boys club level and on the whole the mentality is completely different i.e no pressure to win, parents shouting/getting involved is not accepted. They also have access to much more of the sports science side of things as well.

School of Football Programme - this is a programme that is currently used by a only two clubs in the UK, Watford and Celtic (as far as i am aware) and the Scottish FA who operate it at different levels. Idea being that football replaces certain subjects within the school curriculum and additional football sessions are provided for the kids. If Hibs put in the links with certain local schools there is no doubt this could be pushed forward and i'm sure there are various clubs who would be keen for the link up. Again it is an opportunity to develop players, educate them and shape them. I do not know if the club have looked at this or not but if they have not i'd be amazed. Guessing the downside would be a cost implication however sacrificing say one players wage could potentially offset this?

Anyway i truely believe that we could start to implement these ideas throughout the club. I believe that if the club wanted to do this they could, although how they tied this in to the first team would perhaps need looked at. There is no doubt though that changes have to be made. I don't agree that we have to wait for everyone do to it, i believe that if the club is strong minded enough they could drive the programme/ideas forward.

Glad we are nearly singing off the same sheet :greengrin

[WhileTheChief..]

Such as Nottingham Forest Boss Colin Calderwood ?

I don't class Calderwood as a manager ;)