If Scotland achieves independence, will we still be British?

[Hibbyradge]

A comment on a friend's Facebook caused me to think about this. The detail isn't important.

I've read a lot of people saying that they're "Scottish, not British" and although I understand the sentiment, I've always thought it was a bit silly because, like it or not, Scotland is in the British Isles ergo, Scottish people are automatically British.

It would be like saying "I'm Scottish, not European". Harmless, but nonsense really.

However, when I pointed this out, the reply came back, "Not for long", presumably referring to next year's referendum and the effect of Scotland's possible independence.

And that got me thinking.

Would I be right in saying that even in an independent country, Scottish people would still be British?

[Beefster]

I think that British is taken to mean 'a citizen of the United Kingdom' nowadays, rather than a native of the island of Great Britain, so politically, we wouldn't be British but geographically, we would be (I think). The same as the period before an independent Scotland is admitted to the EU - we'd be geographically European but not politically.

[Scouse Hibee]

A comment on a friend's Facebook caused me to think about this. The detail isn't important.

I've read a lot of people saying that they're "Scottish, not British" and although I understand the sentiment, I've always thought it was a bit silly because, like it or not, Scotland is in the British Isles ergo, Scottish people are automatically British.

It would be like saying "I'm Scottish, not European". Harmless, but nonsense really.

However, when I pointed this out, the reply came back, "Not for long", presumably referring to next year's referendum and the effect of Scotland's possible independence.

And that got me thinking.

Would I be right in saying that even in an independent country, Scottish people would still be British?

Yes

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.definitions.net/definition/British

[yeezus.]

I remember reading an article about this on NewsNat Scotland. If individuals consider themselves British after independence then that is their choice - look at the history of this island, independence doesn't negate that.

[Glory Lurker]

I think that British is taken to mean 'a citizen of the United Kingdom' nowadays, rather than a native of the island of Great Britain, so politically, we wouldn't be British but geographically, we would be (I think). The same as the period before an independent Scotland is admitted to the EU - we'd be geographically European but not politically.

That's assuming that we weren't admitted at the same time as we became independent.

Whether folk want to consider themselves as British is up to them, I don't think it's something that can be dictated. I have no real emotional feeling of "Britishness", so I don't consider myself British. By the same token that I wouldn't appreciate someone telling me otherwise, I wouldn't want to tell folk what they are.

[Hibrandenburg]

A comment on a friend's Facebook caused me to think about this. The detail isn't important.

I've read a lot of people saying that they're "Scottish, not British" and although I understand the sentiment, I've always thought it was a bit silly because, like it or not, Scotland is in the British Isles ergo, Scottish people are automatically British.

It would be like saying "I'm Scottish, not European". Harmless, but nonsense really.

However, when I pointed this out, the reply came back, "Not for long", presumably referring to next year's referendum and the effect of Scotland's possible independence.

And that got me thinking.

Would I be right in saying that even in an independent country, Scottish people would still be British?


Scottish, British, European, Earthling and Milky Waylian in that order.

Seriously, we'd still be British 2nd class just like we are now.

[marinello59]

Scottish, British, European, Earthling and Milky Waylian in that order.

Seriously, we'd still be British 2nd class just like we are now.

You may consider yourself 2nd class.....I don't. Unless you mean the nasty English picking on us again.

Salmond himself has acknowledged that many Scots are happy to describe themselves as British and will continue to do so in an Independent Scotland. And why shouldn't they?

[Scouse Hibee]

Scottish, British, European, Earthling and Milky Waylian in that order.

Seriously, we'd still be British 2nd class just like we are now.


Why do you consider yourself 2nd class?

[Hibrandenburg]

You may consider yourself 2nd class.....I don't. Unless you mean the nasty English picking on us again.

Salmond himself has acknowledged that many Scots are happy to describe themselves as British and will continue to do so in an Independent Scotland. And why shouldn't they?

Didn't say that so stop being naughty and if the mighty Salmond has given his blessing to the people that they may remain British at heart, then who am I to say otherwise :rolleyes:


They people who decide what policies to follow should be held to account by those whom the said policies effect. This is unfortunately not the case in Scotland and our interests are often represented by persons who have no vested interest in Scotland and even sometimes who's own agenda is contra that of our own.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why do you consider yourself 2nd class?

I don't but many of your fellow countrymen do. Or would you claim that Scotland is an equal partner within the UK?

[Scouse Hibee]

I don't but many of your fellow countrymen do. Or would you claim that Scotland is an equal partner within the UK?


Sorry mate but I do not personally know a single person who would consider some who is Scottish to be 2nd class either as a nation or individually as people. :confused:

Even on the football pitch you're not considered good enough to be 2nd class :wink:

I think it says more about your perception of English people than their perception of you!

[Beefster]

I don't but many of your fellow countrymen do. Or would you claim that Scotland is an equal partner within the UK?

As I said on the other thread, I've never heard any English folk say anything like that. As Scouse said, it may say more about your views on the English than anything in reverse.

[marinello59]

As I said on the other thread, I've never heard any English folk say anything like that. As Scouse said, it may say more about your views on the English than anything in reverse.

I would agree with that. I have English family members, English friends and lived down there for several years and I never felt at any time that the majority thought of me as second class because I was a Scot.

[lord bunberry]

As I said on the other thread, I've never heard any English folk say anything like that. As Scouse said, it may say more about your views on the English than anything in reverse.

I've heard kelvin mackenzie making anti scottish remarks saying he wishes scotland would leave the UK. He is an extreme case but it is an attitude that exists amongst a minority of english people.

[Hibrandenburg]

Like I said on the other thread it was all about my personal experiences. I too have many English friends and a large part of my family on both parents sides are English. I certainly do not hate the English same as I do not hate any other nationality as a whole (you can't change where you were born). I just don't want someone who cannot be held to task by the Scottish people making decisions for the Scottish people or someone who's heart isn't in Scotland fighting Scotlands corner. It's just not democratic. And just one last time I'd like to say that I have no anti-English agenda, rather a pro-Scottish one.

[Scouse Hibee]

I've heard kelvin mackenzie making anti scottish remarks saying he wishes scotland would leave the UK. He is an extreme case but it is an attitude that exists amongst a minority of english people.


I disagree and cannot think of one reason why a minority of English people would even think of considering this. As for Kelvin Mackenzie he is a creature created **** knows where and his opinions on anything are worthless.

[allmodcons]

I disagree and cannot think of one reason why a minority of English people would even think of considering this. As for Kelvin Mackenzie he is a creature created **** knows where and his opinions on anything are worthless.

Did KM not used to be Editor of Englands biggest selling daily newspaper? His opinions used to sell a lot of newspapers and, presumably, some of his readers shared his views.

As a Scouser, you should know better than most how his evil opinions managed to 'strike a chord' with others who didn't know, or couldn't be bothered checking, the facts.

[Scouse Hibee]

Did KM not used to be Editor of Englands biggest selling daily newspaper? His opinions used to sell a lot of newspapers and, presumably, some of his readers shared his views.

As a Scouser, you should know better than most how his evil opinions managed to 'strike a chord' with others who didn't know, or couldn't be bothered checking, the facts.


Funny but I can remember a lot of his agenda's and headlines yet negativity about Scotland isn't one of them! And it was Britain's biggest selling newspaper!

[heretoday]

Some English folk e.g. Kelvin Mackenzie might like to thump the tub and say let's get rid of these Jocks but most English people I meet down south do not want us to break away at all.

Personally, even after Independence I'd consider myself British and Scottish the same as I do now. I'm not particularly proud to be either one of them. This just happens to be where I was "put down" as it were.

I would hate to think of my sisters as being suddenly "foreign" because they were born in England.

[allmodcons]

Funny but I can remember a lot of his agenda's and headlines yet negativity about Scotland isn't one of them! And it was Britain's biggest selling newspaper!

Now you're being selective. KM says nothing negative about Scots during his tenure at The Sun!!!!
I know it was Britain's biggest selling newspaper, but it had (and still has) completely different agendas in it's English and Scottish editions.

[Scouse Hibee]

Now you're being selective. KM says nothing negative about Scots during his tenure at The Sun!!!!
I know it was Britain's biggest selling newspaper, but it had (and still has) completely different agendas in it's English and Scottish editions.


Not being selective at all mate just pointing out that the alleged anti Scottish agenda that you speak of did not have the effect in England that you perceive it did.

[allmodcons]

I've heard kelvin mackenzie making anti scottish remarks saying he wishes scotland would leave the UK. He is an extreme case but it is an attitude that exists amongst a minority of english people.


Not being selective at all mate just pointing out that the alleged anti Scottish agenda that you speak of did not have the effect in England that you perceive it did.

Not sure what you mean by 'effect', I was merely supporting LB's view that attitudes like KM's exist amongst a minority of English.

Are you seriously suggesting that there is anti English sentiment in Scotland and no anti Scottish sentiment in England?

[Scouse Hibee]

Not sure what you mean by 'effect', I was merely supporting LB's view that attitudes like KM's exist amongst a minority of English.

Are you seriously suggesting that there is anti English sentiment in Scotland and no anti Scottish sentiment in England?


I can't speak for the whole of England but I can say that where as I have experienced an anti English sentiment in Scotland (Edinburgh) I have NEVER experienced an anti Scottish sentiment in England (Liverpool) and neither have any of my Scottish mates or relatives. I'm sure other folk on here from different parts of England or indeed Liverpool may have had different experiences.

[joe breezy]

I've always thought of myself as British - I love history and think the Scots and Welsh are more British than the English

The British are the indigenous people of the island. Sadly some people see it as a reference to colonialism, which again Scotland was a big part of.

[joe breezy]

I can't speak for the whole of England but I can say that where as I have experienced an anti English sentiment in Scotland (Edinburgh) I have NEVER experienced an anti Scottish sentiment in England (Liverpool) and neither have any of my Scottish mates or relatives. I'm sure other folk on here from different parts of England or indeed Liverpool may have had different experiences.

There is very little anti Scottish sentiment in England compared to the anti English sentiment in Scotland

That's as a Scottish person living in England

[lord bunberry]

I disagree and cannot think of one reason why a minority of English people would even think of considering this. As for Kelvin Mackenzie he is a creature created **** knows where and his opinions on anything are worthless.

Your right there isn't a reason for a minority of of english people to have a problem with the scottish but there is also no reason for scottish people to have an anti english agenda but by your own admission you have experienced it. There will always be people with an axe to grind generally its due to a lack of education

[Scouse Hibee]

Your right there isn't a reason for a minority of of english people to have a problem with the scottish but there is also no reason for scottish people to have an anti english agenda but by your own admission you have experienced it. There will always be people with an axe to grind generally its due to a lack of education


Probably the same reasons that religious divides still greatly exist here!

[lord bunberry]

Probably the same reasons that religious divides still greatly exist here!

Most sensible people can see past someone's nationality but wherever you go there will be a minority of people who for whatever reason have issues with a certain country. This is the case in both Scotland and England

[Scouse Hibee]

Most sensible people can see past someone's nationality but wherever you go there will be a minority of people who for whatever reason have issues with a certain country. This is the case in both Scotland and England


A problem which I suspect is more prevelant in Scotland than England.

[lord bunberry]

A problem which I suspect is more prevelant in Scotland than England.

You may well be right but it is plainly wrong to suggest its a problem confined only to scotland

[Hibbyradge]

You may well be right but it is plainly wrong to suggest its a problem confined only to scotland

He didn't.

[allmodcons]

It is an attitude that exists amongst a minority of english people.


I disagree and cannot think of one reason why a minority of English people would even think of considering this.


He didn't.

He did.

[Scouse Hibee]

He did.

I did and now that quote makes me look a bit of a dick (hold my hands up). I got a bit caught up with the suggestion that the twat from the Sun could influence people with more of his sheite.


To clear up then: I think the anti English feeling is more prevelant in Scotland than the anti Scottish feeling is in England. To class them both as a minority in each country creates a bit of a smokescreen as to the actual numbers involved IMO. Therefore I do think that the problem is much bigger in Scotland. My views are as seen in the North West of England and are based upon my own personal experiences.

[lord bunberry]

I did and now that quote makes me look a bit of a dick (hold my hands up). I got a bit caught up with the suggestion that the twat from the Sun could influence people with more of his sheite.


To clear up then: I think the anti English feeling is more prevelant in Scotland than the anti Scottish feeling is in England. To class them both as a minority in each country creates a bit of a smokescreen as to the actual numbers involved IMO. Therefore I do think that the problem is much bigger in Scotland. My views are as seen in the North West of England and are based upon my own personal experiences.

I agree it is worse up here. There are people up here who were born in Scotland and never ever left Scotland but consider themselves Irish and hate the British.

[southfieldhibby]

I don't but many of your fellow countrymen do. Or would you claim that Scotland is an equal partner within the UK?

This second class citizen thing is nonsense created by ultra-nationalists to still up the brain dead who aren't interesting in engaging in the actual terrific debate thats coming in the next year or so.It's creating animosity with England thats not wanted and does no-one any good.

[Beefster]

This second class citizen thing is nonsense created by ultra-nationalists to still up the brain dead who aren't interesting in engaging in the actual terrific debate thats coming in the next year or so.It's creating animosity with England thats not wanted and does no-one any good.

I'd agree with that.

[Hibrandenburg]

This second class citizen thing is nonsense created by ultra-nationalists to still up the brain dead who aren't interesting in engaging in the actual terrific debate thats coming in the next year or so.It's creating animosity with England thats not wanted and does no-one any good.


I'd agree with that.

I'd disagree with that.

[Hibbyradge]

You may well be right but it is plainly wrong to suggest its a problem confined only to scotland


Most sensible people can see past someone's nationality but wherever you go there will be a minority of people who for whatever reason have issues with a certain country. This is the case in both Scotland and England


A problem which I suspect is more prevelant in Scotland than England.


He didn't.


He did.


I did



Don't you fluckin start.

Turncoat!

[Hibbyradge]

I'd disagree with that.

Obviously, your own view is that Scotland is second class within the UK.

I certainly don't think that and I see no evidence that we're treated as such.

[greenlex]

We would be British in the same sense that Swedes are Scandinavian.

[allmodcons]

Obviously, your own view is that Scotland is second class within the UK.

I certainly don't think that and I see no evidence that we're treated as such.


Not sure I do either, but the authors of the latest UK Government report do! Equal partners in union? Not so according to these 2 academcis.


"For the purpose of this advice, it is not necessary to decide between these two views of the union of 1707. Whether or not England was also extinguished by the union, Scotland certainly was extinguished as a matter of international law, by merger either into an enlarged and renamed England or into an entirely new state."

[speedy_gonzales]

"For the purpose of this advice, it is not necessary to decide between these two views of the union of 1707. Whether or not England was also extinguished by the union, Scotland certainly was extinguished as a matter of international law, by merger either into an enlarged and renamed England or into an entirely new state."
Hmmm, politics and legalities is far from being my strong suit and not getting the full context of this, but Michael Moore's statement on Monday mentioned similar, funny that Scotland didn't exist post union, is Scotland to be referred to as upper-England, or an annexe of Cumbria-Northumberland? I bet those Lockerbie bombers are wondering under what legal system they were tried under if not Scots?

[lord bunberry]

I think the whole 2nd class british thing stems from minor things that happen that get on our nerves such as the way some english people refer to britain as england. The british olympic football team was a great example of this we had english pundits saying we should play our younger players to get them ready for when they step up to the full squad forgetting that it was a british team. There are also other historical examples such as the way the royal family is seen. The current queen is refered to as queen Elizabeth the 2nd when in fact she is queen Elizabeth the 1st of a united kingdom. The fact that we have an English dominated media also adds to this. All these things in my opinion are minor annoyances and not enough to consider separation but imo its where the 2nd class thing stems from

[Speedy]

I think the whole 2nd class british thing stems from minor things that happen that get on our nerves such as the way some english people refer to britain as england. The british olympic football team was a great example of this we had english pundits saying we should play our younger players to get them ready for when they step up to the full squad forgetting that it was a british team. There are also other historical examples such as the way the royal family is seen. The current queen is refered to as queen Elizabeth the 2nd when in fact she is queen Elizabeth the 1st of a united kingdom. The fact that we have an English dominated media also adds to this. All these things in my opinion are minor annoyances and not enough to consider separation but imo its where the 2nd class thing stems from

I'd agree with this.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd agree with this.

Me too.

[Scouse Hibee]

I think the whole 2nd class british thing stems from minor things that happen that get on our nerves such as the way some english people refer to britain as england. The british olympic football team was a great example of this we had english pundits saying we should play our younger players to get them ready for when they step up to the full squad forgetting that it was a british team. There are also other historical examples such as the way the royal family is seen. The current queen is refered to as queen Elizabeth the 2nd when in fact she is queen Elizabeth the 1st of a united kingdom. The fact that we have an English dominated media also adds to this. All these things in my opinion are minor annoyances and not enough to consider separation but imo its where the 2nd class thing stems from

Oh dear is that it!

[lord bunberry]

Oh dear is that it!

No there is also the condescending attitude of some english people

[Beefster]

No there is also the condescending attitude of some english people

No Scottish people are condescending?

I love how a couple of examples of condescension, arrogance etc etc get scaled up to represent a nation of 50+ million.

[Scouse Hibee]

No there is also the condescending attitude of some english people


:rolleyes: Really, you forget to mention the delicate disposition of SOME Scottish folk :na na:

[Scouse Hibee]

No Scottish people are condescending?

I love how a couple of examples of condescension, arrogance etc etc get scaled up to represent a nation of 50+ million.


:thumbsup:

[lord bunberry]

No Scottish people are condescending?

I love how a couple of examples of condescension, arrogance etc etc get scaled up to represent a nation of 50+ million.

I didn't say anywhere that the examples I used were in anyway representative of the majority of people in england. I used examples mainly from the english media

[lord bunberry]

:rolleyes: Really, you forget to mention the delicate disposition of SOME Scottish folk :na na:

I was being sarcastic in response to your previous post so :na na: to you as well

[Scouse Hibee]

I was being sarcastic in response to your previous post so :na na: to you as well


Err I know you were :greengrin

[Kenny1875]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

[Speedy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

Glad we cleared that up...but why did he mention England first? :duck::greengrin

[yeezus.]

I think the whole 2nd class british thing stems from minor things that happen that get on our nerves such as the way some english people refer to britain as england. The british olympic football team was a great example of this we had english pundits saying we should play our younger players to get them ready for when they step up to the full squad forgetting that it was a british team. There are also other historical examples such as the way the royal family is seen. The current queen is refered to as queen Elizabeth the 2nd when in fact she is queen Elizabeth the 1st of a united kingdom. The fact that we have an English dominated media also adds to this. All these things in my opinion are minor annoyances and not enough to consider separation but imo its where the 2nd class thing stems from

I hear and read a lot about the "Queen of England" and the UK as a whole being referred to as "England". I don't see either of these as a legitimate reason to break away either. Only a nationalist would pounce on these minor issues.

[lord bunberry]

I hear and read a lot about the "Queen of England" and the UK as a whole being referred to as "England". I don't see either of these as a legitimate reason to break away either. Only a nationalist would pounce on these minor issues.

I don't think anyone was really suggesting they were reasons to break from the union it was more in response to the 2nd class british claim

[yeezus.]

I don't think anyone was really suggesting they were reasons to break from the union it was more in response to the 2nd class british claim

Nationalists have used this to add weight to independence arguments in the past, seriously :cool2:

[Hibrandenburg]

I hear and read a lot about the "Queen of England" and the UK as a whole being referred to as "England". I don't see either of these as a legitimate reason to break away either. Only a nationalist would pounce on these minor issues.
If you consider someone feels more Scottish than British a nationalist then I'm guilty as charged and all these aforementioned little things bug the **** out of me.

As previously mentioned my wish for an independant Scotland is mainly emotional, but it's something I stand by and it's as good a reason as any financial reasoning for voting against the Union. Unfortunately as things stand I won't have a say in it anyway.

[lord bunberry]

Nationalists have used this to add weight to independence arguments in the past, seriously :cool2:

I've generally been in favour of independence but when the nationalists come out with that sort of thing it makes me cringe. I remember a few years ago when the ashes was on tv one of them popped up on tv saying it shouldn't be on in scotland. It was then pointed out that cricket was quite popular in this country and was something like the 4th most popular participation sport in the land. They should stick to making the economic argument for independence

[M6hibee]

People can correct me if I'm wrong but if independence occurred, would that not be the end of the United Kingdom or Great Britain meaning, britishness is dead?

[M6hibee]

just add that although obviously a minority, there is a superior attitude with some English which beats me as to why. That kelvin Mckenzie personifies it. Can't remember it word for word but he once said something about the scots lacking the same acumen and innovation of the south of England and we are happy to take from the union!!!

Given our history of innovation, invention and what we have provided to the world for such a small country, makes you wonder where the hell commentators like him gets his areogant rubbish from

[lord bunberry]

People can correct me if I'm wrong but if independence occurred, would that not be the end of the United Kingdom or Great Britain meaning, britishness is dead?

The group of islands we live on are known as the british isles so we would still be british if we wanted

[lord bunberry]

just add that although obviously a minority, there is a superior attitude with some English which beats me as to why. That kelvin Mckenzie personifies it. Can't remember it word for word but he once said something about the scots lacking the same acumen and innovation of the south of England and we are happy to take from the union!!!

Given our history of innovation, invention and what we have provided to the world for such a small country, makes you wonder where the hell commentators like him gets his areogant rubbish from

I'm pretty sure his father was Scottish as well

[M6hibee]

The group of islands we live on are known as the british isles so we would still be british if we wanted

Ah fair enough.

[easty]

just add that although obviously a minority, there is a superior attitude with some English which beats me as to why. That kelvin Mckenzie personifies it. Can't remember it word for word but he once said something about the scots lacking the same acumen and innovation of the south of England and we are happy to take from the union!!!

Given our history of innovation, invention and what we have provided to the world for such a small country, makes you wonder where the hell commentators like him gets his areogant rubbish from

For a start, I'd be amazed if he called us Scots rather than Jocks. Kelvin McKenzie isn't someone I would use to base a nations opinions on though, the guy is welt.

[Hibrandenburg]

The group of islands we live on are known as the british isles so we would still be british if we wanted

Geographically we'll stay British for the next few billion years at least along the same lines that the Danes, Swedes, Norwegians are Scandinavian.

[JeMeSouviens]

Geographically we'll stay British for the next few billion years at least along the same lines that the Danes, Swedes, Norwegians are Scandinavian.

... but politically we won't. The answer is it depends on the context. If "Britain" is being used as shorthand for "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" then in the way that Northern Irish Unionists define themselves as "British" now, we wouldn't be.

[yeezus.]

I've generally been in favour of independence but when the nationalists come out with that sort of thing it makes me cringe. I remember a few years ago when the ashes was on tv one of them popped up on tv saying it shouldn't be on in scotland. It was then pointed out that cricket was quite popular in this country and was something like the 4th most popular participation sport in the land. They should stick to making the economic argument for independence

:agree: I have a similar story. A lad I was at University with was a member of the SNP - I'm a member of Labour and we use to have our debates here and there about the state of Scottish politics.

I thought that the national football team was something we could agree on. But no.

He said that he didn't support Scotland because they didn't have enough players who were in the SPL - "they all played in England" he said.

Can't stand those bull***** arguments either. I guess I'm still waiting for a proper debate on the issue of independence, it has to get more exciting than this debacle over EU membership!

[lord bunberry]

:agree: I have a similar story. A lad I was at University with was a member of the SNP - I'm a member of Labour and we use to have our debates here and there about the state of Scottish politics.

I thought that the national football team was something we could agree on. But no.

He said that he didn't support Scotland because they didn't have enough players who were in the SPL - "they all played in England" he said.

Can't stand those bull***** arguments either. I guess I'm still waiting for a proper debate on the issue of independence, it has to get more exciting than this debacle over EU membership!

I'm also looking forward to the debate I'm hoping we can get some hard facts rather than the scare story's and ridiculous claims we've had from both sides up to now

[Beefster]

I'm also looking forward to the debate I'm hoping we can get some hard facts rather than the scare story's and ridiculous claims we've had from both sides up to now

I object to stuff like this. I'm deadly serious when I say that Scotland will sink and everyone will die if we vote to leave the UK.

[lord bunberry]

I object to stuff like this. I'm deadly serious when I say that Scotland will sink and everyone will die if we vote to leave the UK.

You should have been a politician