Last ever evening kick off for Derby?

[GoldenEagle]

A bit of an over reaction from the justice minister but he seems to get what he wants most times.

17k fans and 2 arrests, praised by Lothian and Borders police.

[GoldenEagle]

Should add its front page of today's EEN

[Westie1875]

What reasons does he give?

[GoldenEagle]

http://twitter.com/edinburghpaper/status/287492191180439552/photo/1

[trev the hat]

A bit of an over reaction from the justice minister but he seems to get what he wants most times.

17k fans and 2 arrests, praised by Lothian and Borders police.

No time for mckaskill absolute plum & should keep his trap shut IMO
I'm sure he released another convict recently on compassionate grounds who was still going strong a year later to his victims despair.

[cocopops1875]

Was always a recipe for trouble late kick off, weekday so pubs are open earlier, folk still on holiday and still in the party mood

[cocopops1875]

Actually can't understand how big a deal has been made however, compared to things that have gone on through the west

[hibs4thecup1988]

The problems that occured in my view had nothing to do with timing of the game. Could still have happened at 3pm on a Saturday. Just some elements of both support are absolute s**m

[Chibs]

Sure he got lifted at Wembley Scotland v england game.
Pot black and kettle spring to mind.

[God Petrie]

The EEN is doing a great job of blowing the spitting incident out of proportion.

[NotoriousLor]

Have they even mentioned the flare yet?

[Beefster]

The EEN is doing a great job of blowing the spitting incident out of proportion.

In what way? It's considered assault, is it not? If he had punched the kid in the coupon, would they still be blowing it out of proportion?

[capitals_finest]

What an erse. He has just basically shown people that he does not have a clue about Edinburgh football.

Sensationalist headline statements like this are not a good idea for SNP. Tool.

[nonshinyfinish]

Have they even mentioned the flare yet?

If you look at the photo of the EEN front page posted above, it's mentioned in the same breath as the spitting incident.

[BarneyK]

In what way? It's considered assault, is it not? If he had punched the kid in the coupon, would they still be blowing it out of proportion?

If it had happened outside the stadium would we even be talking about? I remember getting bottles chucked at us after leaving Tynie some years ago. I don't recall any games being rearranged because of that. Not an incident to be proud of, for sure, the spitting thing, but an overreaction IMO.

[NotoriousLor]

If you look at the photo of the EEN front page posted above, it's mentioned in the same breath as the spitting incident.

Cool, haven't looked at the link or the paper yet, just wondererd

[brog]

There may not be any more derbies at PBS for quite some time! :wink:

[One Day Soon]

That's an utterly ludicrous piece of political posturing.

Ball-boy spitting episode aside, the article cites the flare and coin throwing as reasons to avoid evening kick offs. We have seen flares thrown in day time fixtures and coining takes place at almost every game including day time. Spitting at players also takes place at most Gorgie derbies regardless of timings (it may happen at ER too).

Some people drink and drive - does he want driving to be restricted at Christmas and New Year?
Some people go pickpocketing and shoplifting during very busy times like the Festivals - does he want a curfew for Festival events or to limit the number of tourists?
Some people steel lead from church roofs - does he want the number of churches to be reduced?

This is a classic example of a vote grubbing politician applying the wrong solution to the the wrong problem. Over 17,000 people behaved just fine at the derby and a tiny minority didn't. The answer is in the stewarding and policing arrangements and in the peer pressure of the vast majority of sensible Hibs and Hearts supporters. This kind of over reaction is in the same vein as Thatcher's bungled interventions in football that cost the game a fortune and solved nothing. At a time when our game is struggling financially you would have thought that the notion of changing kick off times - which can have a pretty negative effect on attendances - would be treated very cautiously unless there were exceptionally good reasons for doing so.

Added to which shouldn't operational matters like this be something for the police to manage rather than being dictated by knee jerk politicians?

[GreenCastle]

The bigger problem is alcohol and culture in this country - not the timing of the games.

Yes an earlier kick off may limit people drinking but people will still drink if they want to - the issue they should be looking at is what this country are doing to combat the alcohol fueled problems that often occur.

I also agree while both Edinburgh clubs have their fair share of muppets in their support the Old Firm are much worse. Doesn't make it better - the improvements at a young age within our Scottish culture would be a start to improving behaviour.

[Antifa Hibs]

Typical SNP papering over the cracks.

It's gonna take alot more than banning night kick-offs, 50p a unit, off-sales limited selling hours, no bevvy on public transport etc etc to sort out Scotlands bevvy problem.

Talk about an over-reaction.

[Rasta_Hibs]

The bigger problem is alcohol and culture in this country - not the timing of the games.

Yes an earlier kick off may limit people drinking but people will still drink if they want to - the issue they should be looking at is what this country are doing to combat the alcohol fueled problems that often occur.

I also agree while both Edinburgh clubs have their fair share of muppets in their support the Old Firm are much worse. Doesn't make it better - the improvements at a young age within our Scottish culture would be a start to improving behaviour.

I agree this countrys obsession with alcohol is way over the top! If people were smoking the herb then we would see less of this behaviour in my opinion.

[lucky]

Total over reaction to a minor incident. But anything for a headline from MacAskill. Has he not blamed the English for giving football hooliganism?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

No really sure that the Justice Minister is much of a politician but I guess in a party with a majority that any Politburo would be happy with, ability doesn't really count. That is beside the point though. I have not read the whole article, but if two arrests from over 17,000 fans brings out this reaction, then in terms of consistency I can see difficult times ahead for him. Would be interesting if Dundee and Celtc were drawn in the Cup, went to a replay at Dens on a midweek. That game generated much more trouble. So he steps in and says it can't go ahead??

[Jamesie]

To be fair it was probably the first time the Sainsburys Local on Roseburn Street (which I acknowledge has only been there for a couple of years) has had to close before a Derby. And I've never seen such a large Police presence outside the Roseburn Bar in any Derby I've been to over the years.

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree this countrys obsession with alcohol is way over the top! If people were smoking the herb then we would see less of this behaviour in my opinion.

Like in Jamaica, one of the most violent countries in the world, you mean? :greengrin

[givescotlandfreedom]

He'd do well to remember we're not all jaked fannies as soon a we've had a pint and don't all get steaming at the football and get arrested like he was. The vast majority here haven't missed most of a game due to being a drunken fud so why listen to someone that has?

[silverhibee]

Like in Jamaica, one of the most violent countries in the world, you mean? :greengrin

Yaa man.

[The Green Goblin]

The bigger problem is alcohol and culture in this country - not the timing of the games.

Yes an earlier kick off may limit people drinking but people will still drink if they want to - the issue they should be looking at is what this country are doing to combat the alcohol fueled problems that often occur.

I also agree while both Edinburgh clubs have their fair share of muppets in their support the Old Firm are much worse. Doesn't make it better - the improvements at a young age within our Scottish culture would be a start to improving behaviour.

Spot on. Great post. Funny how yet again nobody is focusing on that in their political/media statements and reports.

[Baldy Foghorn]

No time for mckaskill absolute plum & should keep his trap shut IMO
I'm sure he released another convict recently on compassionate grounds who was still going strong a year later to his victims despair.

I abhor McKaskill, his handling of Al Megrahi was scandalous, Justice Minister who has no idea what justice is

[#FromTheCapital]

The bigger problem is alcohol and culture in this country - not the timing of the games.

Yes an earlier kick off may limit people drinking but people will still drink if they want to - the issue they should be looking at is what this country are doing to combat the alcohol fueled problems that often occur.

I also agree while both Edinburgh clubs have their fair share of muppets in their support the Old Firm are much worse. Doesn't make it better - the improvements at a young age within our Scottish culture would be a start to improving behaviour.

:agree: Spot on. Have a look at the spanish, huge big games played at 10pm on a saturday or sunday night with little or no trouble. Culture over there is so much more laid back and people go out to have a good time not to see how smashed they can get before closing time

[cocopops1875]

I agree this countrys obsession with alcohol is way over the top! If people were smoking the herb then we would see less of this behaviour in my opinion.

This:smokin:smokin:smokin

[Part/Time Supporter]

Ridiculous over-reaction by MacAskill.

Presumably he will also need to ban midweek Hearts v Celtic games, as there were seven arrests at that game in November.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/hearts-v-celtic-arrests-1463040

[Kojock]

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/kenny-macaskill-orders-spl-rethink-on-late-night-derby-games-after-ugly-scenes-at-tynecastle-1-2720782

Article mentions the following five incidents

• A ballboy was spat at by at least two supporters

• Claims Hibs’ Irish defender Tim Clancy was spat at during the game

• Reports of sectarian chanting

• A barrage of coins were reportedly thrown by both sets of supporters

• Widely reported accounts of a lit flare landing at the feet of young Hibs fan

And as mentioned in a previous post MacAskill arrested at Wembley report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/535592.stm

[Jones28]

Such an over-reaction! Those incidents could happen at a 12 O'clock Sunday kick-off. I'd love to see comparisons made with Old Firm evening kick offs. Or maybe we should just play all our games at 10 O'clock on a Sunday morning and completely sterilise football. I'm not suggesting that what happened on Thursday (the spitting, flares or coin throwing) is part of the game because it isn't and shouldn't be, but evening kick offs do have a better atmosphere.

[trev the hat]

I abhor McKaskill, his handling of Al Megrahi was scandalous, Justice Minister who has no idea what justice is

Totally agree BF, another of his outrageous decisions was the release in Dec 2011 of the Glencorse robbery murderer carried out in 1985.
Three families dealing with his freedom of more than a year now.
Kenny Mcaskill is IMO an embarrassment to the people of Scotland.

Not sure these links work, could someone fix if not please.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16341560

See here- foot of the page (note name withheld)

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/offender-management/offender/custody/Prisons/17968/granted-refused/granted2000-09

[Hibeesforever]

I read the article this morning and was saddened that our politicians and journalists are so out of touch.
This was my first Tyncastle derby for over ten years.
A few small incidents carried out by some immature fans, on both sides, is not a reason for damming a classic fixture or changing a kick off time in the belief that policing and public order will be better served.
Today, every football supporter has to register to obtain a ticket and then they are also identifiable via CCTV. Those that misbehaved, knew that they would face penalties, so hardly difficult for the police to find or identify offenders.
On this basis, I really don't know why concerns are being raised by the Justice minister and given fuel by Edinburgh Journalists.
If the justice Minister was interested in better crowd contol, he would look at why there were no police in Murrayfield when the bars arbitrarily decided, for no reason, to refuse entry to all Hibernain supporters at 5.30pm. These fans sufferred West of Edinburgh prejudice and, as a result, were left to take their chances standing to avoid traffic injuries on a very narrow pavement. They were a credit to Hibernain football club in the way they did not rise to some clear West of Edinburgh provocation. Rugby supporters are not treated in this disrespectful manner.

Edinburgh used to have a derby atmosphere just like Everton vs Liverpool (whatever that is ). Unfortunately, this egalitarian vision of Auld Reekie was shattered by two incidents that were perpertated by representatives of Heart of Midlothian. First was Wallace Mercer's hostile attempted merger and the second was the recent complete disregard for all sporting or business morality in the corporate governance approach followed by the current board of Heart of Midlothian. How can you spend £60 million in times of economic austerity, beg money from kids at Christmas and then have absolutely nothing, apart from one cup, which was then immediately lost, to show for it.

The Edinburgh Evening News should reflect upon the above. Their final line stated that perhaps Tynecastle was not now fit for SPL football ? Well how poignant is that. Is the journalist saying that a new stadium would change how fans behaved at a Hearts derby, how ridiculous. More likely, he is realising that this Hearts team is in terminal decline and will be playing in the lower reaches of Scottish football before too long.

It is a shame that our politicians and journalists cannot concentrate upon more important matters and stop sensationalising.



:flag:

[God Petrie]

In what way? It's considered assault, is it not? If he had punched the kid in the coupon, would they still be blowing it out of proportion?

Considered by who? He spat - he didn't punch him or shoot him in the face for god sake. Wipe it off and wash yer top. Disgusting but hardly worthy of this overreaction.

[Since90+2]

I read the article this morning and was saddened that our politicians and journalists are so out of touch.
This was my first Tyncastle derby for over ten years.
A few small incidents carried out by some immature fans, on both sides, is not a reason for damming a classic fixture or changing a kick off time in the belief that policing and public order will be better served.
Today, every football supporter has to register to obtain a ticket and then they are also identifiable via CCTV. Those that misbehaved, knew that they would face penalties, so hardly difficult for the police to find or identify offenders.
On this basis, I really don't know why concerns are being raised by the Justice minister and given fuel by Edinburgh Journalists.
If the justice Minister was interested in better crowd contol, he would look at why there were no police in Murrayfield when the bars arbitrarily decided, for no reason, to refuse entry to all Hibernain supporters at 5.30pm. These fans sufferred West of Edinburgh prejudice and, as a result, were left to take their chances standing to avoid traffic injuries on a very narrow pavement. They were a credit to Hibernain football club in the way they did not rise to some clear West of Edinburgh provocation. Rugby supporters are not treated in this disrespectful manner.

Edinburgh used to have a derby atmosphere just like Everton vs Liverpool (whatever that is ). Unfortunately, this egalitarian vision of Auld Reekie was shattered by two incidents that were perpertated by representatives of Heart of Midlothian. First was Wallace Mercer's hostile attempted merger and the second was the recent complete disregard for all sporting or business morality in the corporate governance approach followed by the current board of Heart of Midlothian. How can you spend £60 million in times of economic austerity, beg money from kids at Christmas and then have absolutely nothing, apart from one cup, which was then immediately lost, to show for it.

The Edinburgh Evening News should reflect upon the above. Their final line stated that perhaps Tynecastle was not now fit for SPL football ? Well how poignant is that. Is the journalist saying that a new stadium would change how fans behaved at a Hearts derby, how ridiculous. More likely, he is realising that this Hearts team is in terminal decline and will be playing in the lower reaches of Scottish football before too long.

It is a shame that our politicians and journalists cannot concentrate upon more important matters and stop sensationalising.



:flag:

Really? By that im assuming you mean it was friendly and the fans would occaasionally mingle at the ground? When was this? Im not doubting you just geniunely interested.

[JIm]

Considered by who? He spat - he didn't punch him or shoot him in the face for god sake. Wipe it off and wash yer top. Disgusting but hardly worthy of this overreaction.

I do agree that there has been a massive overreatction, but there always will be when the media get hold of stuff like this.

However spitting is the lowest of the low, i personally would rather take a punch than someone spitting on me. Spittings for cowards.

[silverhibee]

This:smokin:smokin:smokin


:agree:

As long as it is only green. :wink: :greengrin :smokin :agree:

[heidtheba]

The sad thing is that on here and even on JKB there is fairly widespread condemnation from normal fans about the behaviour of the minority. This wasn't really touched on by any of the 'politicians' nor the EEN. Shame that there isn't a chance of those fans taking the real moral high ground, not club v club but normal civil fans v prats, and have a voluntary, well behaved, civil non-segregated area at the next derby...that would show them.
Controversial I know but would be a big 'show' from the clubs.

[Sudds_1]

Was always a recipe for trouble late kick off, weekday so pubs are open earlier, folk still on holiday and still in the party mood

Much the same for a NY Day game though no?..........plenty bevvy wi them and in them :-)
.....absolutely no trouble that I saw. Both sets were remarkably well behaved.

Minister should consult his officials before he opens his mouth.

[silverhibee]

I take it the last minister was at the game and witnessed all this happen. Or did someone just tell him what happened.

[Beefster]

Considered by who?

By law.

As someone said earlier, I'd rather take a rap in the jaw than have some manky barsteward spit in my face.

[Sir David Gray]

I don't think I'll be taking heed of any comments from someone who took the shameful decision to release the worst mass murderer in British history.

And as others have said as well, his football supporting days were hardly perfect.

[Sir David Gray]

The sad thing is that on here and even on JKB there is fairly widespread condemnation from normal fans about the behaviour of the minority. This wasn't really touched on by any of the 'politicians' nor the EEN. Shame that there isn't a chance of those fans taking the real moral high ground, not club v club but normal civil fans v prats, and have a voluntary, well behaved, civil non-segregated area at the next derby...that would show them.
Controversial I know but would be a big 'show' from the clubs.

I consider myself to be quite a civil, well behaved person but there's absolutely no danger that I would want to sit in a mixed area at a derby.

Absolutely no chance.

It's a non starter anyway but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[JimBHibees]

I don't think I'll be taking heed of any comments from someone who took the shameful decision to release the worst mass murderer in British history.

And as others have said as well, his football supporting days were hardly perfect.

Bollox.

[hibbybob]

The sad thing is that on here and even on JKB there is fairly widespread condemnation from normal fans about the behaviour of the minority. This wasn't really touched on by any of the 'politicians' nor the EEN. Shame that there isn't a chance of those fans taking the real moral high ground, not club v club but normal civil fans v prats, and have a voluntary, well behaved, civil non-segregated area at the next derby...that would show them.
Controversial I know but would be a big 'show' from the clubs.

Also chose to overlook the fact that a minutes applause for the deceased Hearts doctor was well respected by the Hibs fans!

[marinello59]

The sad thing is that on here and even on JKB there is fairly widespread condemnation from normal fans about the behaviour of the minority. This wasn't really touched on by any of the 'politicians' nor the EEN. Shame that there isn't a chance of those fans taking the real moral high ground, not club v club but normal civil fans v prats, and have a voluntary, well behaved, civil non-segregated area at the next derby...that would show them.
Controversial I know but would be a big 'show' from the clubs.

That is a splendid idea.
Lothian and Borders Police actually praised the supporters of both clubs. Yet again the moronic actions of the minority are jumped on by politicians to further their own careers. Stuff the lot of them.

[Springbank]

I'm a free thinker who can see many positive reasons for scots independence (not a single one of those reasons is negative anti-anything or anti-anyone). Things like being free of weapons of mass destruction and being capable of taking our own view when the uk wants to rush into illegal wars that make things worse (not better) as well as promoting all the clean, green energy and wealth we can generate on our own.

But this kind of unthinking overreaction from a scots minister worries me. I want Scotland to be a great and thoughtful small nation. This interjection by mr mcaskill is not helpful

[silverhibee]

Bollox.


How. :cb

[cocopops1875]

Much the same for a NY Day game though no?..........plenty bevvy wi them and in them :-)
.....absolutely no trouble that I saw. Both sets were remarkably well behaved.

Minister should consult his officials before he opens his mouth.

:confused: not sure i get you're point inregards to what i said ? and which game are you talking about in the bit in bold ?

[God Petrie]

By law.

As someone said earlier, I'd rather take a rap in the jaw than have some manky barsteward spit in my face.

He didn't spit in his face but you are good at the subtle hyperbole thing. You should write for the EEN.

[marinello59]

He didn't spit in his face but you are good at the subtle hyperbole thing. You should write for the EEN.

I read somewhere earlier on about the Hearts fans throwing smoke bombs (plural for both) at an infant. Who needs politicians to tell us what animals us fitba fans are when we do such a good job of exagerating things ourselves.

[hfc rd]

I take it he hasn't been to a yams v smeltic match before or even a derby in Eastern Europe?

[Beefster]

He didn't spit in his face but you are good at the subtle hyperbole thing. You should write for the EEN.

The ballboy reckons he was hit in the face by it. I reckon he would know for definite.

[God Petrie]

The ballboy reckons he was hit in the face by it. I reckon he would know for definite.

"Reckons". Sounds like he is pretty definite about it. Guilty until proven innocent eh.

[Sir David Gray]

Bollox.

What's "bollox"? :confused:

Kenny MacAskill didn't take the decision to release al-Megrahi or al-Megrahi wasn't the worst mass murderer in British history? :dunno:

I know there's some people who dispute the official version of events from Lockerbie but as things stand at the moment, al-Megrahi is still the man who is responsible for carrying out the attack and MacAskill released him on the grounds that he was dying of cancer and had just 3 months left to live...3 and a half years ago.

I think I'll stick to my original post.

[Beefster]

"Reckons". Sounds like he is pretty definite about it. Guilty until proven innocent eh.

Sorry, that was my wording. I evidently couldn't write for the Evening News after all.

As for the 'guilty until proven innocent', you do know that one of the guys that spat at the ballboy has already admitted it, right?

[CropleyWasGod]

What's "bollox"? :confused:

Kenny MacAskill didn't take the decision to release al-Megrahi or al-Megrahi wasn't the worst mass murderer in British history? :dunno:

I know there's some people who dispute the official version of events from Lockerbie but as things stand at the moment, al-Megrahi is still the man who is responsible for carrying out the attack and MacAskill released him on the grounds that he was dying of cancer and had just 3 months left to live...3 and a half years ago.

I think I'll stick to my original post.

MacAskill really had no choice in the matter, since it's the law. The same law that led him to free the Penicuik guy last week, and that led (?) Jack Straw to free Ronnie Biggs.

His responsibility was to ensure that due process had been applied, that is all. If there is any anger to be directed, it should be at those who made the law in the first place, and (by omission) ALL those who allow it to remain.

[God Petrie]

Sorry, that was my wording. I evidently couldn't write for the Evening News after all.

As for the 'guilty until proven innocent', you do know that one of the guys that spat at the ballboy has already admitted it, right?

I was referring to whether the ballboy was spat in the face or not which seemed to be the crux of your argument. I had a search through the articles and found nothing conclusive but you seem quite desperate to chastise a 16 year old by exaggerating the crime. It just reinforces my original point that the incident has been blown out of proportion by the media.

[brog]

As other posters have said this is a social & culture problem not a football problem. Here's some random thoughts.
1. Spitting is disgusting but no one died. There are probably worse things happening between 16 & 14yo's every day in every school playground in the country.
2. An idiot threw a cone on to taxi in early hours of NY day & almost caused a fatal accident. Will the 2014 Hogmanay celebrations be cancelled?
3. At Murrayfield last night rugby fans could enjoy a beer while watching the match. Clear discrimination vs footy fans in this country.
4. Regardless of your political persuasions in this case KM is posturing for what he considers will be political gain - pathetic!

[Since90+2]

As other posters have said this is a social & culture problem not a football problem. Here's some random thoughts.
1. Spitting is disgusting but no one died. There are probably worse things happening between 16 & 14yo's every day in every school playground in the country.
2. An idiot threw a cone on to taxi in early hours of NY day & almost caused a fatal accident. Will the 2014 Hogmanay celebrations be cancelled?
3. At Murrayfield last night rugby fans could enjoy a beer while watching the match. Clear discrimination vs footy fans in this country.
4. Regardless of your political persuasions in this case KM is posturing for what he considers will be political gain - pathetic!

If they had sold alcohol at the derby there would have been serious trouble at the game. The spitting / flare incident would have just been the spark it needed.

Im all for selling alcohol at the football but I would limit it to non category a matches which is just asking for trouble.

[Sir David Gray]

If they had sold alcohol at the derby a few days ago there would have been serious trouble at the game. The spitting / flare incident would have just been the spark it needed.

Im all for selling alcohol at the football but I would limit it to non category a matches which is just asking for trouble.

I personally would agree with this but what's the script in England with regards to the sale of alcohol at games.

Is there any distinction made between the availability of alcohol at a Wigan-Fulham game as opposed to a Manchester Utd-Liverpool game? :dunno:

I genuinely don't know the answer and I would be interested to find out.

[LancashireHibby]

I personally would agree with this but what's the script in England with regards to the sale of alcohol at games.

Is there any distinction made between the availability of alcohol at a Wigan-Fulham game as opposed to a Manchester Utd-Liverpool game? :dunno:

I genuinely don't know the answer and I would be interested to find out.
The police are consulted before each game whether they wish to allow alcohol to be consumed within the stadium. They also have the power to shut the bars at any point if they see things are looking like they might get out of hand.

[kaimendhibs]

He'd do well to remember we're not all jaked fannies as soon a we've had a pint and don't all get steaming at the football and get arrested like he was. The vast majority here haven't missed most of a game due to being a drunken fud so why listen to someone that has?

Well said, mcaskill is an attention seeking hypocrite and the sooner he is emptied from his position the better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[trev the hat]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3465529]MacAskill really had no choice in the matter, since it's the law. The same law that led him to free the Penicuik guy last week, and that led (?) Jack Straw to free Ronnie Biggs.

His responsibility was to ensure that due process had been applied, that is all. If there is any anger to be directed, it should be at those who made the law in the first place, and (by omission) ALL those who allow it to

Is it not the case that its law for release to be considered on compassionate grounds & not mandatory. Due process could infact have been refusal of release.
Also agree KM comments were opportunistic to say the least regarding the derby.
Evening ko,s in the derby have been kind to us over the years, coincidence ?

[--------]

What's "bollox"? :confused:

Kenny MacAskill didn't take the decision to release al-Megrahi or al-Megrahi wasn't the worst mass murderer in British history? :dunno:

I know there's some people who dispute the official version of events from Lockerbie but as things stand at the moment, al-Megrahi is still the man who is responsible for carrying out the attack and MacAskill released him on the grounds that he was dying of cancer and had just 3 months left to live...3 and a half years ago.

I think I'll stick to my original post.


Erm, you ARE aware he died early last year? Sounds like you think he's still alive.

Shockingly inconsiderate of the man to live a couple of years longer than his doctors had forecast, but that's how it goes sometimes with cancer - maybe we should have put him on a time-clock when we released him?

There is HUGE doubt about the verdict in that case - allegations of witness-tampering by the CIA (surely not?) and that the CIA (again?) also withheld vital evidence from the defence team before the trial.

At least one crucial witness in the case has sworn in a legal affidavit that he stole the timer produced in evidence at the trial and passed it on to one of the investigators involved in assembling the prosecution case; another has stated that he was offered a large sum of money by the CIA to give false testimony in regard to that same timer. Your "some people" include a number of eminent Scottish and international legal experts as well as Nelson Mandela, Tam Dalyell, the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, the law faculties of all the Scottish universities, the representatives of British relatives and the UN's official observer at the trial in The Hague. These are not just "some people" - when the university law faculties are unanimous that a conviction is unsafe, it's a pretty safe bet that it is.

It was coincidental, of course, that Al-megrahi was granted compassionate release (which is entirely within the Scottish legal structure and not something Ken MacAskill just thought up on his own accord) just when he ahd been granted leave to appeal his conviction? No one in Westminster or Washington at all worried about what might come out at that appeal?

The threads on this forum about the match on Thursday evening made it clear to me that the atmosphere in the ground was thoroughly poisonous, and that Hibs players were spat on by Hearts fans down at the touchline, Hibs fans (more than one) spat on a 10-year-old ball-boy when he went to retrieve the ball from the Hibs section of the ground, a flare was thrown fromn the Wheatfield Stand into the same Hibs section, and that there was a considerable amount of sectarian singing and chanting which as usual the football authorities are just going to pretend never happened. Whe the news about the Hibs "fans" spitting in the face oif the wee boy first broke, the opinion on this forum was that this was absolutely out of order and that the people concerned should be banned from Easter Road for life. Now, apparently, it's no big deal. Guess what - in this age of AIDS and HIV, being spat on IS a big deal. You can't tell what exactly those Hibs fans had had in their mouths before they spat on the laddie. Same goes for the Hearts fans who spat on our players. The game should have been played on the first or second of January in daylight - preferably an early KO at 1230, IMO.

The number of arrests is irrelevant - it could simply be construed that the police and stewards allowed multiple offences to go unpunished simply to avoid worse trouble in and around the ground. Of course, our bampots aren't as bad as the Hearts bampots, or the OF bampots, so that's makes it all OK?

And of course, the sale of alcohol within Tynecastle on Thursday evening would have calmed everything down, right?

[Since90+2]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3465529]MacAskill really had no choice in the matter, since it's the law. The same law that led him to free the Penicuik guy last week, and that led (?) Jack Straw to free Ronnie Biggs.

His responsibility was to ensure that due process had been applied, that is all. If there is any anger to be directed, it should be at those who made the law in the first place, and (by omission) ALL those who allow it to

Is it not the case that its law for release to be considered on compassionate grounds & not mandatory. Due process could infact have been refusal of release.
Also agree KM comments were opportunistic to say the least regarding the derby.
Evening ko,s in the derby have been kind to us over the years, coincidence ?

Not sure what your meaning here but Kenny MacAskill is a Hibee.

[JimBHibees]

What's "bollox"? :confused:

Kenny MacAskill didn't take the decision to release al-Megrahi or al-Megrahi wasn't the worst mass murderer in British history? :dunno:

I know there's some people who dispute the official version of events from Lockerbie but as things stand at the moment, al-Megrahi is still the man who is responsible for carrying out the attack and MacAskill released him on the grounds that he was dying of cancer and had just 3 months left to live...3 and a half years ago.

I think I'll stick to my original post.

The guy had nil to do with Lockerbie. Stitch up to suit the political will at the time. Try reading the case no evidence at all.
As for the release personally think it was completely the right decision.

[Since90+2]

Erm, you ARE aware he died early last year? Sounds like you think he's still alive.

Shockingly inconsiderate of the man to live a couple of years longer than his doctors had forecast, but that's how it goes sometimes with cancer - maybe we should have put him on a time-clock when we released him?

There is HUGE doubt about the verdict in that case - allegations of witness-tampering by the CIA (surely not?) and that the CIA (again?) also withheld vital evidence from the defence team before the trial.

At least one crucial witness in the case has sworn in a legal affidavit that he stole the timer produced in evidence at the trial and passed it on to one of the investigators involved in assembling the prosecution case; another has stated that he was offered a large sum of money by the CIA to give false testimony in regard to that same timer. Your "some people" include a number of eminent Scottish and international legal experts as well as Nelson Mandela, Tam Dalyell, the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, the law faculties of all the Scottish universities, the representatives of British relatives and the UN's official observer at the trial in The Hague. These are not just "some people" - when the university law faculties are unanimous that a conviction is unsafe, it's a pretty safe bet that it is.

It was coincidental, of course, that Al-megrahi was granted compassionate release (which is entirely within the Scottish legal structure and not something Ken MacAskill just thought up on his own accord) just when he ahd been granted leave to appeal his conviction? No one in Westminster or Washington at all worried about what might come out at that appeal?

The threads on this forum about the match on Thursday evening made it clear to me that the atmosphere in the ground was thoroughly poisonous, and that Hibs players were spat on by Hearts fans down at the touchline, Hibs fans (more than one) spat on a 10-year-old ball-boy when he went to retrieve the ball from the Hibs section of the ground, a flare was thrown fromn the Wheatfield Stand into the same Hibs section, and that there was a considerable amount of sectarian singing and chanting which as usual the football authorities are just going to pretend never happened. Whe the news about the Hibs "fans" spitting in the face oif the wee boy first broke, the opinion on this forum was that this was absolutely out of order and that the people concerned should be banned from Easter Road for life. Now, apparently, it's no big deal. Guess what - in this age of AIDS and HIV, being spat on IS a big deal. You can't tell what exactly those Hibs fans had had in their mouths before they spat on the laddie. Same goes for the Hearts fans who spat on our players. The game should have been played on the first or second of January in daylight - preferably an early KO at 1230, IMO.

The number of arrests is irrelevant - it could simply be construed that the police and stewards allowed multiple offences to go unpunished simply to avoid worse trouble in and around the ground. Of course, our bampots aren't as bad as the Hearts bampots, or the OF bampots, so that's makes it all OK?

And of course, the sale of alcohol within Tynecastle on Thursday evening would have calmed everything down, right?

I agree with alot of your post but this part is some sort of scaremongering you would expect to read in The Sun. You cant catch HIV by being spat on (and therefore not AIDS either).

[trev the hat]

[QUOTE=trev the hat;3465606]

Not sure what your meaning here but Kenny MacAskill is a Hibee.

Hibee or not, attempts to end eve ko times wouldn't be welcomed.

[Beefster]

I was referring to whether the ballboy was spat in the face or not which seemed to be the crux of your argument. I had a search through the articles and found nothing conclusive but you seem quite desperate to chastise a 16 year old by exaggerating the crime. It just reinforces my original point that the incident has been blown out of proportion by the media.

I'm not exaggerating anything. As I've already said I'm believing the ballboy who is claiming he was hit in the face by someone's spit.

To be honest, I'll chastise the guy that did it whether or not it hit the child's face. It's a ****my thing to do either way.

[RIP]

Evening kick offs are not an issue most of the time. By the time you get home from work and have yet tea you have to run oot again to get to the match. Evening games can have a better atmosphere than other games.

However loads of supporters were on holiday and many started drinking at lunchtime. What's the betting there were a couple of thousand who had consumed more than a gallon of bevvy pre-match.

Don't know about anyone else but most of my worst behaviour was conducted when I was bevvied. Wonder if the police think the Derby atmosphere was exacerbated by the consumption of alcohol?

[Sir David Gray]

Erm, you ARE aware he died early last year? Sounds like you think he's still alive.

Shockingly inconsiderate of the man to live a couple of years longer than his doctors had forecast, but that's how it goes sometimes with cancer - maybe we should have put him on a time-clock when we released him?

There is HUGE doubt about the verdict in that case - allegations of witness-tampering by the CIA (surely not?) and that the CIA (again?) also withheld vital evidence from the defence team before the trial.

At least one crucial witness in the case has sworn in a legal affidavit that he stole the timer produced in evidence at the trial and passed it on to one of the investigators involved in assembling the prosecution case; another has stated that he was offered a large sum of money by the CIA to give false testimony in regard to that same timer. Your "some people" include a number of eminent Scottish and international legal experts as well as Nelson Mandela, Tam Dalyell, the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, the law faculties of all the Scottish universities, the representatives of British relatives and the UN's official observer at the trial in The Hague. These are not just "some people" - when the university law faculties are unanimous that a conviction is unsafe, it's a pretty safe bet that it is.

It was coincidental, of course, that Al-megrahi was granted compassionate release (which is entirely within the Scottish legal structure and not something Ken MacAskill just thought up on his own accord) just when he ahd been granted leave to appeal his conviction? No one in Westminster or Washington at all worried about what might come out at that appeal?

The threads on this forum about the match on Thursday evening made it clear to me that the atmosphere in the ground was thoroughly poisonous, and that Hibs players were spat on by Hearts fans down at the touchline, Hibs fans (more than one) spat on a 10-year-old ball-boy when he went to retrieve the ball from the Hibs section of the ground, a flare was thrown fromn the Wheatfield Stand into the same Hibs section, and that there was a considerable amount of sectarian singing and chanting which as usual the football authorities are just going to pretend never happened. Whe the news about the Hibs "fans" spitting in the face oif the wee boy first broke, the opinion on this forum was that this was absolutely out of order and that the people concerned should be banned from Easter Road for life. Now, apparently, it's no big deal. Guess what - in this age of AIDS and HIV, being spat on IS a big deal. You can't tell what exactly those Hibs fans had had in their mouths before they spat on the laddie. Same goes for the Hearts fans who spat on our players. The game should have been played on the first or second of January in daylight - preferably an early KO at 1230, IMO.

The number of arrests is irrelevant - it could simply be construed that the police and stewards allowed multiple offences to go unpunished simply to avoid worse trouble in and around the ground. Of course, our bampots aren't as bad as the Hearts bampots, or the OF bampots, so that's makes it all OK?

And of course, the sale of alcohol within Tynecastle on Thursday evening would have calmed everything down, right?

I'm completely aware that he died last year. I was trying, obviously not very well, to subtly make reference to the claim that he was being released in 2009 on the basis that he only had 3 months left to live. Almost 3 years on from his release he was still alive.

I know that there's a lot of different opinions on this issue as to whether or not he should have been granted a release on compassionate grounds and also whether or not he was even guilty of the Lockerbie bombing. Personally I was very much opposed to his release and I regard MacAskill's decision to be up there as one of the worst decisions that a British politician has taken in recent years. I felt his position within the Scottish Government was untenable and I thought it was an embarrassing episode for Scotland as a whole.


The guy had nil to do with Lockerbie. Stitch up to suit the political will at the time. Try reading the case no evidence at all.
As for the release personally think it was completely the right decision.

If you think he was innocent then I can live with that and I can understand why you would be defending his release on that basis.

But I cannot accept people like MacAskill, who don't doubt the safety of the conviction, but who go on about this compassionate release. I cannot comprehend why anyone would support the release of someone, who you believe has committed an atrocity on the scale of the Lockerbie bombing, just because they happen to have an illness.

It's not something I will ever agree with or support. I thought it was wrong at the time and I haven't changed my opinion more than 3 years later.

[hibee bouncer]

Really? By that im assuming you mean it was friendly and the fans would occaasionally mingle at the ground? When was this? Im not doubting you just geniunely interested.

You still get Everton/Liverpool fans sitting beside each other in part of Goodison. Not sure if it's Family tickets etc but they definitely sit beside each other.

Don't think Anfield operates the same way though.

[GreenCastle]

Can someone tell me other sports which segregate supporters?

Following on from my earlier post the issue still is to do with Scottish culture and mainly it's drink culture. Breathalysing fans before they enter the ground would be interesting to see where they are on the scale - Im sure tickets state something about being under the influence on alcohol.

The problem is many see alcohol as part of the pre match ritual etc but many drink too much before a game = act in a way they usually aren't in everyday life.

They banned drink at Scottish FOOTBALL and not RUGBY stadiums for a reason. In England you can drink in the stadium concourse but can't take it to your seat. Many other football stadiums around the world allow fans to drink at their seats or in the concourse.

[Steve-O]

We can drink at our seats in Australia / NZ and segregation is rarely an issue (though most fans of one team do all sit together). There are a few nutters in Aussie in particular but I can't recall seeing any crowd trouble at any games over here.

[One Day Soon]

Erm, you ARE aware he died early last year? Sounds like you think he's still alive.

Shockingly inconsiderate of the man to live a couple of years longer than his doctors had forecast, but that's how it goes sometimes with cancer - maybe we should have put him on a time-clock when we released him?

There is HUGE doubt about the verdict in that case - allegations of witness-tampering by the CIA (surely not?) and that the CIA (again?) also withheld vital evidence from the defence team before the trial.

At least one crucial witness in the case has sworn in a legal affidavit that he stole the timer produced in evidence at the trial and passed it on to one of the investigators involved in assembling the prosecution case; another has stated that he was offered a large sum of money by the CIA to give false testimony in regard to that same timer. Your "some people" include a number of eminent Scottish and international legal experts as well as Nelson Mandela, Tam Dalyell, the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, the law faculties of all the Scottish universities, the representatives of British relatives and the UN's official observer at the trial in The Hague. These are not just "some people" - when the university law faculties are unanimous that a conviction is unsafe, it's a pretty safe bet that it is.

It was coincidental, of course, that Al-megrahi was granted compassionate release (which is entirely within the Scottish legal structure and not something Ken MacAskill just thought up on his own accord) just when he ahd been granted leave to appeal his conviction? No one in Westminster or Washington at all worried about what might come out at that appeal?

The threads on this forum about the match on Thursday evening made it clear to me that the atmosphere in the ground was thoroughly poisonous, and that Hibs players were spat on by Hearts fans down at the touchline, Hibs fans (more than one) spat on a 10-year-old ball-boy when he went to retrieve the ball from the Hibs section of the ground, a flare was thrown fromn the Wheatfield Stand into the same Hibs section, and that there was a considerable amount of sectarian singing and chanting which as usual the football authorities are just going to pretend never happened. Whe the news about the Hibs "fans" spitting in the face oif the wee boy first broke, the opinion on this forum was that this was absolutely out of order and that the people concerned should be banned from Easter Road for life. Now, apparently, it's no big deal. Guess what - in this age of AIDS and HIV, being spat on IS a big deal. You can't tell what exactly those Hibs fans had had in their mouths before they spat on the laddie. Same goes for the Hearts fans who spat on our players. The game should have been played on the first or second of January in daylight - preferably an early KO at 1230, IMO.

The number of arrests is irrelevant - it could simply be construed that the police and stewards allowed multiple offences to go unpunished simply to avoid worse trouble in and around the ground. Of course, our bampots aren't as bad as the Hearts bampots, or the OF bampots, so that's makes it all OK?

And of course, the sale of alcohol within Tynecastle on Thursday evening would have calmed everything down, right?


Let's get this straight, you think the CIA went out of their way to frame Megrahi and then years later Washington and Westminster went out of their way to get the guy they had previously framed released back to Libya where he could presumably have revealed the 'truth'?

In summary this conspiracy theory requires us to believe that MacAskill and Salmond were forced by London (of all places) and Washington to release Megrahi on compassionate grounds even though as you state, it is "entirely within the Scottish legal structure" and was therefore a matter for MacAskill alone to decide.

This is the same SNP government whose own Lord Advocate went out of his way last month to attack conspiracy theorists who claim that the Lockerbie bomber was wrongly convicted.

MacAskill telling Scottish football how to run its affairs? No thanks.

[Aldo]

Look at the facts

7.45 K.O
Most folk still on Holiday.
Bevvied to the max
Derby
=

Potential for loads of bother.

Police report only 2 arrests. TBH that's incredible and just shows how well the fans did behave.

Spitting is disgusting and the person responsible is the lowest of the low... But c'mon on a wee laddie ****.

MacAskill is a total tool and just doesn't have a clue.

[Alfred E Newman]

[QUOTE=SunnyLeith;3465608]

Hibee or not, attempts to end eve ko timacces wouldn't be welcomed.

According to the tv commentary, Hibs have never lost an evening derby.

[andyf5]

Really? By that im assuming you mean it was friendly and the fans would occaasionally mingle at the ground? When was this? Im not doubting you just geniunely interested.

Quite a few of my friends in their middle 50's early 60's did this. My older relatives (70) said the family would gather for New Year, nip down the road to the game together then come back to the family party in Stewart Terrace, half hibbies and half jambos. Quite a few went to Tynecastle one week and Easter Road the next. A trial family mixed section would be good imho as I have good friends and family from both sets of supporters.

[heidtheba]

[QUOTE=trev the hat;3465624]

According to the tv commentary, Hibs have never lost an evening derby.


I heard that too but I'm sure I remember a game sometime between 95 and 97 where Dave McPherson scored two headers for them?
Was mentioned that it was over a period of time that I missed?

[brog]

The police are consulted before each game whether they wish to allow alcohol to be consumed within the stadium. They also have the power to shut the bars at any point if they see things are looking like they might get out of hand.

That's true but for the great majority of games the bars are open until just before k.o then open again at h/t. In some places the bars re-open at f/t. At Brighton they stay open until about 7.30 after a game. There's discrimination inEngland also tho, at rugby you can get a pint during the game. FWIW I've never seen anyone getting drunk at a game but seen plenty drunks going into a game!

[Alfred E Newman]

[QUOTE=malcolm-bogie;3465784]


I heard that too but I'm sure I remember a game sometime between 95 and 97 where Dave McPherson scored two headers for them?
Was mentioned that it was over a period of time that I missed?

I think you are right, I remember a late afternoon New Year game at ER c 1990 when we were howked 4-1.

[Jonnyboy]

What do a hammer, a chisel, a pair of pliers and Kenny MacAskill have in common?

They're all tools

[Mr White]

What do a hammer, a chisel, a pair of pliers and Kenny MacAskill have in common?

They're all tools

He's more like a bradawl Jonnyboy- a small boring tool.

[Jonnyboy]

He's more like a bradawl Jonnyboy- a small boring tool.

:faf: :thumbsup: