Thatcher

[DaveF]

I see that she's in hospital again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20820887 and given her ill health and age it probably won't be long before she shuffles off.

Which raises the question as to how Scotland reacts when it does happen?

Has time mellowed your view of the Iron Lady? Or will it be street parties and drinks all round?

[stoneyburn hibs]

I see that she's in hospital again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20820887 and given her ill health and age it probably won't be long before she shuffles off.

Which raises the question as to how Scotland reacts when it does happen?

Has time mellowed your view of the Iron Lady? Or will it be street parties and drinks all round?

An older guy at work used to call me one of "Thatchers children", i was still old enough to know what was going on at the time of her "reign", hope she burns in hell.

[LancashireHibby]

I've hired a venue for when the inevitable happens. It's called "north of Watford".

[MSK]

I see that she's in hospital again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20820887 and given her ill health and age it probably won't be long before she shuffles off.

Which raises the question as to how Scotland reacts when it does happen?

Has time mellowed your view of the Iron Lady? Or will it be street parties and drinks all round?Has it **** !!! just wish my Dad was alive to see the auld witch go..at least he wont have to worry about her when she finally goes .... ..Dad is in heaven...

[Pretty Boy]

I'll give it until post 15 before HKhibby makes an appearance!

[Lucius Apuleius]

Whilst never forgetting what she did and what she allegedly did to Scotland in particular and the UK in general, I cannot help but look at her now and just see a sick old woman. No celebrations (nor mourning) for me any more, sorry to say.

[Beefster]

My old man hates Thatcher which is particularly ironic given that she let him buy his own home and that our family's standard of living rose substantially between the start and end of the 80s.

[BroxburnHibee]

For the poll tax alone which she forced on to Scotland first I'll be taking a drink and saying good riddance.

[Scouse Hibee]

Get a grip you lot, she's now a frail pensioner who is recovering from an operation and ill. Have we really stooped that low that we would celebrate her demise in such a fashion?

[BroxburnHibee]

Get a grip you lot, she's now a frail pensioner who is recovering from an operation and ill. Have we really stooped that low that we would celebrate her demise in such a fashion?

Yep :agree:

[Killiehibbie]

Get a grip you lot, she's now a frail pensioner who is recovering from an operation and ill. Have we really stooped that low that we would celebrate her demise in such a fashion?
For her part in the Hillsborough cover up alone she should have gone to jail. Hell, if it exists, when she dies will do.

[MSK]

Get a grip you lot, she's now a frail pensioner who is recovering from an operation and ill. Have we really stooped that low that we would celebrate her demise in such a fashion?Yes ..:agree:

[Beefster]

Get a grip you lot, she's now a frail pensioner who is recovering from an operation and ill. Have we really stooped that low that we would celebrate her demise in such a fashion?

C'mon SH. Never mind genocide or any of that stuff, she had different politics to some folk. If that doesn't warrant some grave-dancing, nothing does.

[Scouse Hibee]

Show some compassion FFS.

[Hiber-nation]

Show some compassion FFS.

Like she did?!?!

[Scouse Hibee]

Like she did?!?!


No, like any decent person would!

[yeezus.]

I couldn't "drink" to the death of anyone - as much as I despise Thatcherism I would not wish death on her or celebrate it.

[Eyrie]

Like any politician Mrs Thatcher did good things and bad things. In her case this was during a period of necessary change in the structure of the British economy. It's understandable that those who lost out as a result of those changes have a negative view of her.

But I don't think that justifies the delight that some are taking in the prospect of her death. Thatcher was no Mandela, but she doesn't deserve the sort of behaviour that would be more appropriate for the death of a Stalin or Pol Pot.

[alnewhaven]

Necessary changes but ones that maybe didn't need to be carried out in the manner they were? Paying the price now for putting all eggs in the basket of financial services

[twiceinathens]

From a political point of view I was delighted when you was sacrificed by her own by her own party and forced resentfully from Downing street, but actively relishing her death is over the top.

[Hibbyradge]

Whilst never forgetting what she did and what she allegedly did to Scotland in particular and the UK in general, I cannot help but look at her now and just see a sick old woman. No celebrations (nor mourning) for me any more, sorry to say.

This is pretty much how I feel now.

I hated her with a passion and I travelled to picket the Scottish Tory party conference in Perth when she attended it.

I would have celebrated like a loon if she'd died when she was in government and, frankly, I was disappointed that she escaped the Brighton bombing at the time.

I was ecstatic when she was booted out of office by her own party, but she means little to me now. I will never forgive her for what she did, in particular, to Scotland and to the miners and their families, but I won't celebrate her dying a natural death.

I wanted vengeance and revenge so if anything, I'll be a bit disappointed.

[MSK]

Show some compassion FFS.Eh ..naw...FFS ..I despise the old bat, always did ..always will ..:aok:

[Hibernia&Alba]

I oppose everything she represents, most of all the hypocrisy of her 'freedom' sloganeering in the 1980s whilst simultaneously supporting the likes of Pinochet and Apartheid South Africa. It was a definition of freedom and democracy on her ideological terms. A truly disgraceful individual. Anyone who voted for her is no friend of mine.

[stoneyburn hibs]

No, like any decent person would!

Like all the decent people who's lives she wrecked ? Nah i will continue to be bitter thanks.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

damn. saw the name, thought our luck was in....oh well. can't be too much longer now.
old bitch.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Eh ..naw...FFS ..I despise the old bat, always did ..always will ..:aok:

I'll second that.

[heretoday]

My old man hates Thatcher which is particularly ironic given that she let him buy his own home and that our family's standard of living rose substantially between the start and end of the 80s.

That's funny. Trouble is she didn't use the money to build more council houses. She didn't believe in social housing. Hence the housing crisis down the line.

She kept winning elections though.

[Hibrandenburg]

Show some compassion FFS.

I'll show compassion for the old bag when you buy a years subscription for The Sun.

[HiBremian]

Show some compassion FFS.

Nae chance. Never forget working in Consett in 1980, when the local steelworks was making a profit, but she wanted to close it anyway to make British Steel tastier for privatisation. Thatcher GTF.

[steakbake]

Get a grip you lot, she's now a frail pensioner who is recovering from an operation and ill. Have we really stooped that low that we would celebrate her demise in such a fashion?

Pinochet was a frail old pensioner that she granted asylum to. She must be all heart. I'm not going to jump off the couch cheering when she goes, but I will be satisfied, somehow.

[Phil D. Rolls]

There's an Elvis Costello song that I will be playing. No quarter given - it's what she would want.

[Bishop Hibee]

My attitude towards her has mellowed but she could never be forgiven for what she did. Think of all the miners that the police fitted up for example. This will be the next chapter of police corruption to emerge after Hillsborough, collusion with the Murdoch press and the Andrew Mitchell affair. We are also reaping the whirlwind of the unbridled capitalism which she and her cronies like Sir Keith Joseph preached.

At least she united people against the poll tax and a non-payment campaign which scuppered it. This in turn accelerated the re-creation of the Scottish Parliament.

[Phil D. Rolls]

That's funny. Trouble is she didn't use the money to build more council houses. She didn't believe in social housing. Hence the housing crisis down the line.

She kept winning elections though.

Not in Scotland, the North East or North West though.

[givescotlandfreedom]

I'll give her the same charity she gave to others in need. Let her rot.

[whiskyhibby]

I'll give her the same charity she gave to others in need. Let her rot.

Well said........

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

My dad didn't live to see her die .. He grew up in loanhead (not a jambo) and saw the destruction of much of Scottish industry under her watch .. When she goes ill have a wee dram !

[lyonhibs]

My old man found himself in the unenviable position of having to defend the Poll Tax because he worked for the Scottish Office at the time. The stress of having to go against every one of his natural tendencies in order to keep his job will live with me forever, even though I was only 5/6 at the time. I won't celebrate her death, as that would be daft given that she was well before my time in terms of being remotely politically aware.

But I won't judge those who do raise a toast, not after what she did.

[The Green Goblin]

Pinochet. What was it she called him "a dear friend" or something like that? Now go look up what he was responsible for...

Others have touched on various other things. I don't need to repeat them.

On principle, I won't "celebrate" anyone's death...ever, no matter who they are. No exceptions.

I don't see myself having any reaction of any kind whatseover. That's the best way to show what I think: indifference.I'll read the BBC report, then I imagine I will get on with my day as normal.

[davey 2 good]

I for one will have a dram when she pops her clogs I hope they put a statue up for her the birds will have a great time ****ting on it never forget poll tax miners strike hillsboro calling mandela a terrorist and calling pinochet a gentalman I enjoyed seeing her the other day on tele I belevie in the karma what goes round comes round old senial cow

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

[hibsbollah]

There's an Elvis Costello song that I will be playing. No quarter given - it's what she would want.

:agree: "Can you imagine all that greed and avarice coming down on that child's lips?"

Costello had Maggie down to a tee. 'Shipbuilding' another case in point.

[lucky]

She should be tried for crimes against humanity. I hate her and her kind for what did to this country. It was her policy of greed that set this country on road to ruin. She sold off all off all the UK assets to her backers. She is **** of the worst kind. When she dies the world will be a better place.

[heretoday]

Not in Scotland, the North East or North West though.

That's true but I think Labour could have done better in the south by having more electable leaders. Foot and Kinnock? Not the best candidates to stem the tide of The Iron Lady "rolling back the frontiers of the state". Kinnock came close but he was such a windbag that he put people off.

[Just_Jimmy]

There's an Elvis Costello song that I will be playing. No quarter given - it's what she would want.

Tramp the dirt down?

Brilliant.

[Phil D. Rolls]

That's true but I think Labour could have done better in the south by having more electable leaders. Foot and Kinnock? Not the best candidates to stem the tide of The Iron Lady "rolling back the frontiers of the state". Kinnock came close but he was such a windbag that he put people off.

She bribed the right people, as all good politicians do. She didn't have to bribe them for such cynical motives though.


Tramp the dirt down?

Brilliant.

:agree:

[heretoday]

"Greed is Good" was the motto of the Thatcher years, made famous by the film Wall St with Michael Douglas.

[Phil D. Rolls]

"Greed is Good" was the motto of the Thatcher years, made famous by the film Wall St with Michael Douglas.

Yeah, but Malcolm McLaren had already spoken about "cash from chaos". Basically the old order had lost the plot, and anyone who didn't see the need for rules could find a way to get what they wanted.

Thatcher's biggest crime IMO was to reject morality - whilst saying she stood for old fashioned values. If she was old fashioned, it was the dark ages she was harking back to.

[marinello59]

There's an Elvis Costello song that I will be playing. No quarter given - it's what she would want.

I can't read this thread without Tramp the Dirt Down playing in my head. To be honest I have mellowed towards her, she is now a sick old woman and already gone to some extent. Then I remember the miners strike and I think, when the time comes, move over Declan, there's room for another pair of boots there.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I can't read this thread without Tramp the Dirt Down playing in my head. To be honest I have mellowed towards her, she is now a sick old woman and already gone to some extent. Then I remember the miners strike and I think, when the time comes, move over Declan, there's room for another pair of boots there.

I think the thing to remember about that sick old woman is that she is receiving a level of care that could easily have been given to every dementia sufferer in this country, if she and her thugs had divided the wealth from the North Sea in a fairer way. Instead her policy of letting the rich create wealth did more for the economiy of Tuscany where they bought villas.

She had a fortune at her disposal that should have been invested in this country's infrastructure.

[Hibs Class]

She should be tried for crimes against humanity. I hate her and her kind for what did to this country. It was her policy of greed that set this country on road to ruin. She sold off all off all the UK assets to her backers. She is **** of the worst kind. When she dies the world will be a better place.

Rather than dismiss this as just an emotional post by someone who was politically the opposite of Thatcher, I'd be keen to hear what crimes against humanity she should be charged with. My view is that an inferred comparison with e.g. Hitler, Stalin, pol pot, Hussein, Milosevic etc may be a little unkind but you deserve a chance to elaborate.

[heretoday]

Yeah, but Malcolm McLaren had already spoken about "cash from chaos". Basically the old order had lost the plot, and anyone who didn't see the need for rules could find a way to get what they wanted.

Thatcher's biggest crime IMO was to reject morality - whilst saying she stood for old fashioned values. If she was old fashioned, it was the dark ages she was harking back to.

You're right. The values were basic. Climb over everyone else to get to the money. She allowed chancers to get rich. East End barrow boys swopped carrots and cabbages for stocks and bonds. She broke down the old City barriers by doing that and appeased the old toffs by giving them huge tax cuts. Every greedy boy and girl who was prepared to get up early and hack it on the trading floors could make it and acquire things only the public school types had had access to before. That was seen as egalitarian by many at the time.

It was certainly an exciting time historically. Books like Hugo Young's Thatcher biog and Peter York's The Eighties tell the story. I haven't read anything gripping about the Blair years.

[gringojoe]

I hate her and hope she pops her clogs soon and when she does I'll have a large malt whisky. As for the she is old and sick leave her alone defence would the same apply to Peter Sutcliffe, Rose West, Ian Brady?

[Scouse Hibee]

I hate her and hope she pops her clogs soon and when she does I'll have a large malt whisky. As for the she is old and sick leave her alone defence would the same apply to Peter Sutcliffe, Rose West, Ian Brady?

Yes quite right, politicians and ex PM's are often classed in the same bracket as murderers and rapists :rolleyes:

[Sir David Gray]

I hate her and hope she pops her clogs soon and when she does I'll have a large malt whisky. As for the she is old and sick leave her alone defence would the same apply to Peter Sutcliffe, Rose West, Ian Brady?

You may not have liked her political outlook or the decisions that she took when she was Prime Minister but you can hardly compare Margaret Thatcher to three of the worst mass murderers that this country has ever seen.

That's just silly, in my opinion, and totally detracts from any legitimate debates that people may have on this subject.

I wasn't around during her time as PM so I have no personal opinion on her, either way, however I do have a personal experience of dementia and it's not an illness that I would wish on anyone.

[VickMackie]

Yes quite right, politicians and ex PM's are often classed in the same bracket as murderers and rapists :rolleyes:

Blair?

[VickMackie]

You may not have liked her political outlook or the decisions that she took when she was Prime Minister but you can hardly compare Margaret Thatcher to three of the worst mass murderers that this country has ever seen.

That's just silly, in my opinion, and totally detracts from any legitimate debates that people may have on this subject.

I wasn't around during her time as PM so I have no personal opinion on her, either way, however I do have a personal experience of dementia and it's not an illness that I would wish on anyone.

I'm sure Blair lead to more mass murder than those three so why not?

[Scouse Hibee]

Blair?


No comparison.............next

[RyeSloan]

Who couldn't have hated Thatcher is you were growing up in Scotland in the 80's or working in one of the Industrial Age nationalised businesses. I hated the Poll Tax with a vengeance and hated her even more for it.

However that said I had been too young to remember the winter of discontent or see the country sink to it's knees in front of union depends for more taxpayers money. Nor had I experienced 27% inflation in 1975 nor a plea to the IMF for a bailout in 1976....

To me it's pretty clear. The country needed a significant change of direction. The labour governments of Wilson and Callaghan had failed and Thatcher was the result. You reap what you sow and all that.

[VickMackie]

No comparison.............next

Yet was part of the reason hundreds of thousands of people were killed as collateral damage to achieve very little.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

again, I saw thread and prayed the auld hoor was finished. damn!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Who couldn't have hated Thatcher is you were growing up in Scotland in the 80's or working in one of the Industrial Age nationalised businesses. I hated the Poll Tax with a vengeance and hated her even more for it.

However that said I had been too young to remember the winter of discontent or see the country sink to it's knees in front of union depends for more taxpayers money. Nor had I experienced 27% inflation in 1975 nor a plea to the IMF for a bailout in 1976....

To me it's pretty clear. The country needed a significant change of direction. The labour governments of Wilson and Callaghan had failed and Thatcher was the result. You reap what you sow and all that.

I always find it interesting that history blames the failures of the 70s solely at the feet of the unions. British management surely had a part in what happened too. The fact that we were paying the USA for WW2, and North Sea Oil had only just come on stream make the picture a bit more complex.

I agree a change of direction was needed. My gripe is that policy could have been more focussed on structured growth, and social justice, rather than Thatcher's punk rock approach. It was quite a brutal way to go about changing things.

[Drem]

Certainly wont miss her when she goes, but her stance on The Falklands was immense.
Often wonder how any other leader would have handled it at the time.

[Scouse Hibee]

Yet was part of the reason hundreds of thousands of people were killed as collateral damage to achieve very little.


A simplistic view nothing more!

[Saorsa]

****in' auld boot, I'll have a beer or three when that cow croaks it.

[Big Ed]

I hadn't yet left school when she came to power in 1979, so my recollections of that time are obscured a bit by my deeply polarised views at the time: Labour = Good. Tories = Bad. It was all so simple in those days.

I can remember ordinary people being pissed off with the Unions though. A notion of belligerent zealots bringing workers out on strike at the drop of a hat was prevelent at the time. Men like Len Murray and Arthur Scargill seemed omnipresent on our TV screens in a way unimaginable for Trade Union Leaders now.

Thatcher was able to portray the fragile Labour government as economically inept, whilst in the pockets of far left dogmatists. My recollection is that a lot of Labour's traditional support felt disillusioned and the Tories swept to power.

I doubt that many of the people who switched allegience to her had ever heard of Milton Friedman or the Chicago School of Economics, but the seismic shift in economic theory that she embraced soon became prevalent in contemporary thinking.

In recent years, I had a notion that she was something of a pioneer, who, thinking that she had found political alchemy, pressed ahead with deeply divisive policies because she thought that it was for the best for ordinary British citizens, who would see that the initial pain would be worthwhile in the long run.

Well we have had over thirty years of Neo-Liberalism and it's been a ****ing disaster. Thatcher's legacy has been to erode the power of Government by putting the essential services which ordinary, decent citizens require, such as health, education and fuel, in the hands of a marketplace that has no requirement to provide any form of fairness or morality.

She suffers from Dementia now and so the prospect of her re-evaluating her actions cannot be determined accurately, but her pig-headed nature that was once perceived by many as a quality, suggests to me that she wouldn't have changed a thing.

That's why I despise her.

[VickMackie]

A simplistic view nothing more!

Maybe so but to categorically state mp's can't be compared with murderers because they hold high office and kill from afar rather than up close and personal is just as simplistic.

[Scouse Hibee]

Maybe so but to categorically state mp's can't be compared with murderers because they hold high office and kill from afar rather than up close and personal is just as simplistic.

Oh dear, you started so well and then spewed out total nonsense.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Certainly wont miss her when she goes, but her stance on The Falklands was immense.
Often wonder how any other leader would have handled it at the time.

Other leaders wouldn't have got into the mess in the first place. Argentina had been testing Britain for years, it just so happens Thatcher went to sleep on her watch. She was stuffed if she didn't fight


I hadn't yet left school when she came to power in 1979, so my recollections of that time are obscured a bit by my deeply polarised views at the time: Labour = Good. Tories = Bad. It was all so simple in those days.

I can remember ordinary people being pissed off with the Unions though. A notion of belligerent zealots bringing workers out on strike at the drop of a hat was prevelent at the time. Men like Len Murray and Arthur Scargill seemed omnipresent on our TV screens in a way unimaginable for Trade Union Leaders now.

Thatcher was able to portray the fragile Labour government as economically inept, whilst in the pockets of far left dogmatists. My recollection is that a lot of Labour's traditional support felt disillusioned and the Tories swept to power.

I doubt that many of the people who switched allegience to her had ever heard of Milton Friedman or the Chicago School of Economics, but the seismic shift in economic theory that she embraced soon became prevalent in contemporary thinking.

In recent years, I had a notion that she was something of a pioneer, who, thinking that she had found political alchemy, pressed ahead with deeply divisive policies because she thought that it was for the best for ordinary British citizens, who would see that the initial pain would be worthwhile in the long run.

Well we have had over thirty years of Neo-Liberalism and it's been a ****ing disaster. Thatcher's legacy has been to erode the power of Government by putting the essential services which ordinary, decent citizens require, such as health, education and fuel, in the hands of a marketplace that has no requirement to provide any form of fairness or morality.

She suffers from Dementia now and so the prospect of her re-evaluating her actions cannot be determined accurately, but her pig-headed nature that was once perceived by many as a quality, suggests to me that she wouldn't have changed a thing.

That's why I despise her.

Excellent post.:top marks

[RyeSloan]

I hadn't yet left school when she came to power in 1979, so my recollections of that time are obscured a bit by my deeply polarised views at the time: Labour = Good. Tories = Bad. It was all so simple in those days.

I can remember ordinary people being pissed off with the Unions though. A notion of belligerent zealots bringing workers out on strike at the drop of a hat was prevelent at the time. Men like Len Murray and Arthur Scargill seemed omnipresent on our TV screens in a way unimaginable for Trade Union Leaders now.

Thatcher was able to portray the fragile Labour government as economically inept, whilst in the pockets of far left dogmatists. My recollection is that a lot of Labour's traditional support felt disillusioned and the Tories swept to power.

I doubt that many of the people who switched allegience to her had ever heard of Milton Friedman or the Chicago School of Economics, but the seismic shift in economic theory that she embraced soon became prevalent in contemporary thinking.

In recent years, I had a notion that she was something of a pioneer, who, thinking that she had found political alchemy, pressed ahead with deeply divisive policies because she thought that it was for the best for ordinary British citizens, who would see that the initial pain would be worthwhile in the long run.

Well we have had over thirty years of Neo-Liberalism and it's been a ****ing disaster. Thatcher's legacy has been to erode the power of Government by putting the essential services which ordinary, decent citizens require, such as health, education and fuel, in the hands of a marketplace that has no requirement to provide any form of fairness or morality.

She suffers from Dementia now and so the prospect of her re-evaluating her actions cannot be determined accurately, but her pig-headed nature that was once perceived by many as a quality, suggests to me that she wouldn't have changed a thing.

That's why I despise her.


Good post and will sum up a lot of people thoughts I think.

Interesting though that you suggest Thatchers legacy was to put Health, Education and fuel in the hands of the marketplace...yet these areas are surely still one of the most regulated and controlled areas of our society.

Health spending in the UK as a percentage of GDP didn't really fall under Thatcher and overall has continued to rise significantly after her removal from office. Rather than blame Thatcher or the Markets most health workers seem to complain most about continual government 'medelling'....no matter what form that takes!

Education is another area where government intervention can hardly be seen as a shining light for more government control. And while spending in terms of GDP % fell under Thatcher there was also steady real terms increases in all years apart from one or two. It's also interesting to note that the Education Reform Act of 1988 was seen as a substantial increase in terms of goverment intervention in Education, not the removal of it!!


Finally Fuel.. or for fuel read energy. The absolute shambles of succesive governments energy policies continues to this day. Overpriced re-newables being imposed on all and constant moving of goal posts detering investment are only the latest evidence of why the UK governments could never be trusted with such a complex industry. To suggest todays nonsense is Thatchers legacy seems to be stretching it somewhat.

Before the every Labour voter on .net descends to kill me I'm not disagreeing with the thrust of your post an din many ways Thatcher was and is a devisive figure and someone who literally destroyed many peoples way of life. it just sometimes people talk about legacies and problems being the fault of a certain politician yet still claim that the government of the day should have control over these things...I just don't get the fascination with central government control nor see much evidence of why people believe a Prime Minister or Whitehall should run UK Energy PLC or UK Health PLC.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I wonder how Abu Qatada and his cronies wouldve fared under Maggie's leadership?

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder how Abu Qatada and his cronies wouldve fared under Maggie's leadership?

Their words would have been spoken by actors.:greengrin

[superfurryhibby]

Maybe so but to categorically state mp's can't be compared with murderers because they hold high office and kill from afar rather than up close and personal is just as simplistic.

With you all the way. To deny this is to deny justice, it´s not selective.

[Gerard]

I wish ill on no person as this is a civilised view to take. In politics there will always be people who have a strong view on politicians.Had Labour been in power when the Conservatives been in power there would still have been closures of mines and steel mills.
The Labour party was in power from 1997 to 2010 and in that time the country's debt has risen to an all time high and the interest that will have to be paid on this vast debt will continue for decades.
I wonder had the Labour Government continued in power; would we have become like Spain of Italy financial basket cases?
Lady Thatcher made it possible for a women to become Prime Minister and was in many ways more manly than her cabinet who were in many cases wet liberals, not unlike call me Dave.
Lady Thatcher like all people made mistakes. That is life.

[Big Ed]

Good post and will sum up a lot of people thoughts I think.

Interesting though that you suggest Thatchers legacy was to put Health, Education and fuel in the hands of the marketplace...yet these areas are surely still one of the most regulated and controlled areas of our society.

Health spending in the UK as a percentage of GDP didn't really fall under Thatcher and overall has continued to rise significantly after her removal from office. Rather than blame Thatcher or the Markets most health workers seem to complain most about continual government 'medelling'....no matter what form that takes!

Education is another area where government intervention can hardly be seen as a shining light for more government control. And while spending in terms of GDP % fell under Thatcher there was also steady real terms increases in all years apart from one or two. It's also interesting to note that the Education Reform Act of 1988 was seen as a substantial increase in terms of goverment intervention in Education, not the removal of it!!


Finally Fuel.. or for fuel read energy. The absolute shambles of succesive governments energy policies continues to this day. Overpriced re-newables being imposed on all and constant moving of goal posts detering investment are only the latest evidence of why the UK governments could never be trusted with such a complex industry. To suggest todays nonsense is Thatchers legacy seems to be stretching it somewhat.

Before the every Labour voter on .net descends to kill me I'm not disagreeing with the thrust of your post an din many ways Thatcher was and is a devisive figure and someone who literally destroyed many peoples way of life. it just sometimes people talk about legacies and problems being the fault of a certain politician yet still claim that the government of the day should have control over these things...I just don't get the fascination with central government control nor see much evidence of why people believe a Prime Minister or Whitehall should run UK Energy PLC or UK Health PLC.

In many ways I agree with what you say.

The argument for privitisation of public services was that private companies with experience of running businesses could do the job far better than politicians and civil servants; and when you put it like that, it is perfectly logical.

Unfortunately, over the years, the way our listed companies are structured means that these companies are suffering from systemic abuse in the mistaken belief that if the share price is high; the company must be doing well. Consequently executives interests are aligned, not with the company, but with that of shareholders.

Consider the big six energy providers in the UK. In the kind of free market that most people would envisage, they would be ruthlessly trying to undercut each other on price, whilst at the same time spending significant sums on research and development in ways of advancing technology, be it green or more energy efficient: that scenario couldn't be further from the current reality, where they all operate as a cartel.

This kind of service provision: "**** you and your heating bills; we've got a share price to drive up!" has its origins in Chicago too, because it confirms the notion that people will only do the right thing if there is something in it for them.

With corporate structure in its present state; the idea that companies can provide public services via a competitive market economy, whilst providing value for money for the tax payer is a fallacy.

So we have a dilemma: flawed, self serving politicians or institutions now designed to be morally bankrupt, running state services?

It's enough to drive a man to drink....and that's what I intend to do right now.

[hibsbollah]

It's become fashionable for political academics to give most 'credit' for what happened in the 1980s in Britain to Milton Friedman and Keith Joseph as the ideological guru's behind Thatcher. I think this is misguided.

Of course there needed to be ideological source behind it. But what happened was driven by a ferocious political will driven by four hours sleep a night and a vicious twin snobbery against the working class and the old north on one hand, and the aristocratic toffs of the Old Tory party and the inherited class on the other.

In some ways she changed everything in politics, but on he other hand she stands out like a bit of an anachronism. Her style (statesmanlike, snooty, clipped accent, detached) is at odds with the modern 'Everyman' style that all politicians go with these days (Cameron's matey chat, Blair's dropped T's and 'y'knows)....you'd never hear Thatcher madly trying to prove she used to eat pasties, for example). She signed the Maastricht treaty and changed the UKs relationship with Europe forever, but still managed to create the illusion that she 'stood up' to Europe. She also changed her mind on a range of projects but because of the 'lady's not for turning' speech will be erroneously remembered for her singleminded ness.

What she did domestically was economic and social vandalism on a massive scale and the country will probably never recover. I'm not interested in celebrating anyone's death but I certainly won't be mourning her either.

[RyeSloan]

In many ways I agree with what you say.

The argument for privitisation of public services was that private companies with experience of running businesses could do the job far better than politicians and civil servants; and when you put it like that, it is perfectly logical.

Unfortunately, over the years, the way our listed companies are structured means that these companies are suffering from systemic abuse in the mistaken belief that if the share price is high; the company must be doing well. Consequently executives interests are aligned, not with the company, but with that of shareholders.

Consider the big six energy providers in the UK. In the kind of free market that most people would envisage, they would be ruthlessly trying to undercut each other on price, whilst at the same time spending significant sums on research and development in ways of advancing technology, be it green or more energy efficient: that scenario couldn't be further from the current reality, where they all operate as a cartel.

This kind of service provision: "**** you and your heating bills; we've got a share price to drive up!" has its origins in Chicago too, because it confirms the notion that people will only do the right thing if there is something in it for them.

With corporate structure in its present state; the idea that companies can provide public services via a competitive market economy, whilst providing value for money for the tax payer is a fallacy.

So we have a dilemma: flawed, self serving politicians or institutions now designed to be morally bankrupt, running state services?

It's enough to drive a man to drink....and that's what I intend to do right now.

There is no panacea for sure.......well OK maybe drink is the closest we have so might just take your lead here and partake in a couple myself :greengrin

[rightwinger]

I don't think the view of Scots will ever mellow towards Thatcher. Our opinion of her corresponds to our view of the Tories in general.

I have a really mixed view. Thatcher was ruthless and divisive and her policies reflected this.

Firstly, if the governments of the 1970's hadn't got Britain into such a mess then she probably wouldn't have got in in the first place. State-owned industries and their unions ruled the roost in the 1970's and were contributing more to problems than solutions. In that respect, was it any wonder that a centre-right party leader came in and took the country towards a privatised, services-oriented market? Thatcher certainly did this ruthlessly and lacked an appreciation of how her decisions would affect the lives of working families - if a shift from industry to services was her aim then more should have been done to support people in the transition from, say, coal-mine to call-centre. She seemed to have this black and white view of 'jobs are out there, on your bikes and get them'.

A lot of working-class people who were able to make the transition did ok and it certainly became easier to obtain mortgages and credit overall. The irony was that, instead of using this in a self-sufficient way, many used it to excess and extravagance.

On the other hand, for all we slag her off, it wasn't as if any of us refused the universal tax cuts or right to buy policies that she introduced.

She was a defiant figure and it is hard not to have a grudging respect of the way she held her ground time after time. I think it was Alex Salmond that, when having a pop at Tony Blair during his last days in office, acknowledged that she 'always remained a tough political adversary'.

The Labour party need to take some responsibility. If they didn't make such a mess every time they got into power, then voters wouldn't turn to the Tories and their tough love in the first place.

I think a lot of it boils down to what is meant to be. The working classes of south England might have seen her differently. As Scots, however, with a traditionally strong labour-core, nationalist pride, a large public sector, and a strong belief in the welfare state, we were never likely to see eye-to-eye with Thatcher. Turkeys don't empathise with Christmas and vice versa.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't think the view of Scots will ever mellow towards Thatcher. Our opinion of her corresponds to our view of the Tories in general.

I have a really mixed view. Thatcher was ruthless and divisive and her policies reflected this.

Firstly, if the governments of the 1970's hadn't got Britain into such a mess then she probably wouldn't have got in in the first place. State-owned industries and their unions ruled the roost in the 1970's and were contributing more to problems than solutions. In that respect, was it any wonder that a centre-right party leader came in and took the country towards a privatised, services-oriented market? Thatcher certainly did this ruthlessly and lacked an appreciation of how her decisions would affect the lives of working families - if a shift from industry to services was her aim then more should have been done to support people in the transition from, say, coal-mine to call-centre. She seemed to have this black and white view of 'jobs are out there, on your bikes and get them'.

A lot of working-class people who were able to make the transition did ok and it certainly became easier to obtain mortgages and credit overall. The irony was that, instead of using this in a self-sufficient way, many used it to excess and extravagance.

On the other hand, for all we slag her off, it wasn't as if any of us refused the universal tax cuts or right to buy policies that she introduced.

She was a defiant figure and it is hard not to have a grudging respect of the way she held her ground time after time. I think it was Alex Salmond that, when having a pop at Tony Blair during his last days in office, acknowledged that she 'always remained a tough political adversary'.

The Labour party need to take some responsibility. If they didn't make such a mess every time they got into power, then voters wouldn't turn to the Tories and their tough love in the first place.

I think a lot of it boils down to what is meant to be. The working classes of south England might have seen her differently. As Scots, however, with a traditionally strong labour-core, nationalist pride, a large public sector, and a strong belief in the welfare state, we were never likely to see eye-to-eye with Thatcher. Turkeys don't empathise with Christmas and vice versa.

I think you have to look further than 1970. Britain was still operating a war economy. State control of industry was as much a throw back to the need for government to control everything, as being driven by socialist principles.

As for the Scots, I think there was a long tradition of social democracy in this country, that pre-dated capitalism and the Union with England. I think it is worth comparing other countries with a Calvinist tradition and the way that they progressed in the second half of the 20th century - to see that morality (?) and politics can be intertwined.

Labour and Tories made a mess every time they were in power. The Heath administration hardly set the heather on fire. My feelings that the conflicts of the 70s had more to do with aspiration, and tiredness of an old system, as any Marxist ideology. My conclusion is that Britain was so skint that there would always have been social unrest.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/scots-will-get-constitutional-right-to-blame-thatcher-2013011656398

[DaveF]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/scots-will-get-constitutional-right-to-blame-thatcher-2013011656398

:thumbsup:

[Just_Jimmy]

Everytime I see a new post on this thread my heart sings. Then I see she's not dead yet and I console myself with the fact the longer we wait the more satisfying it will be.

[yeezus.]

Everytime I see a new post on this thread my heart sings. Then I see she's not dead yet and I console myself with the fact the longer we wait the more satisfying it will be.

Seriously? I find it quite sad that so many Scots actually want to see her dead. I think Thatcher was wrong and many millions of ordinary people suffered because of her but I wouldn't wish death on anyone.

[snooky]

Get a grip you lot, she's now a frail pensioner who is recovering from an operation and ill. Have we really stooped that low that we would celebrate her demise in such a fashion?

I agree with you but, from a different perspective. While I would class myself as a depiser of the woman, I think it would show Scotland in a very bad way if we are seen on world TV to be celebrating her death (when it does come).
We really need to show some class. Let's have a damn good drink in the privacy of our homes, away from the international media.
(Alas, no tongue in cheek smiley available).
The press/TV are going to have a field day and will probably do as much damage to us as that old bat did.

Re. stooping low, I recall how her policies tore communities and families apart and created untold misery for a lot of people (and untold wealth for others).
Stooping low? She created the benchmark.

[yeezus.]

I agree with you but, from a different perspective. While I would class myself as a depiser of the woman, I think it would show Scotland in a very bad way if we are seen on world TV to be celebrating her death (when it does come).
We really need to show some class. Let's have a damn good drink in the privacy of our homes, away from the international media.
(Alas, no tongue in cheek smiley available).
The press/TV are going to have a field day and will probably do as much damage to us as that old bat did.

Re. stooping low, I recall how her policies tore communities and families apart and created untold misery for a lot of people (and untold wealth for others).
Stooping low? She created the benchmark.

Celebrating the death of anyone negates "class".

[Scouse Hibee]

I agree with you but, from a different perspective. While I would class myself as a depiser of the woman, I think it would show Scotland in a very bad way if we are seen on world TV to be celebrating her death (when it does come).
We really need to show some class. Let's have a damn good drink in the privacy of our homes, away from the international media.
(Alas, no tongue in cheek smiley available).
The press/TV are going to have a field day and will probably do as much damage to us as that old bat did.

Re. stooping low, I recall how her policies tore communities and families apart and created untold misery for a lot of people (and untold wealth for others).
Stooping low? She created the benchmark.

Even her policies didn't wish anyone dead!

[blackpoolhibs]

It wont only be Scots celebrating when she dies, rightly or wrongly large parts of northern England will be doing similar.

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree with you but, from a different perspective. While I would class myself as a depiser of the woman, I think it would show Scotland in a very bad way if we are seen on world TV to be celebrating her death (when it does come).
We really need to show some class. Let's have a damn good drink in the privacy of our homes, away from the international media.
(Alas, no tongue in cheek smiley available).
The press/TV are going to have a field day and will probably do as much damage to us as that old bat did.

Re. stooping low, I recall how her policies tore communities and families apart and created untold misery for a lot of people (and untold wealth for others).
Stooping low? She created the benchmark.

Even her policies didn't wish anyone dead!

Maybe not, but they were the death of functioning industries, communities and several hundred servicemen all because of her principles. Not to mention being ultimately responsible for the Hillsborough cover up. Evil human being!

[LeighLoyal]

I wasn't crazy about Thatch at all, but looking back thank god Kinnock never became PM. What a plonker of a man. Trade unions needed reformed and the public sector was way too big and wasteful. Still is regards pensions, I'll be working to 68 to pay public sector pensions.

[Hibbyradge]

I wasn't crazy about Thatch at all, but looking back thank god Kinnock never became PM. What a plonker of a man. Trade unions needed reformed and the public sector was way too big and wasteful.

Eh?

Kinnock was leader in 1986. The unions had been well and truly butchered by then.

Kinnock was at the forefront of the anti-Trotsky/Militant Tendency movement in the Labour Party.

"What a plonker of a man". I'm lucky to have witnessed such insight. :rolleyes:

[LeighLoyal]

Eh?

Kinnock was leader in 1986. The unions had been well and truly butchered by then.

Kinnock was at the forefront of the anti-Trotsky/Militant Tendency movement in the Labour Party.

"What a plonker of a man". I'm lucky to have witnessed such insight. :rolleyes:


If by butchered you mean forced to reform their wholly corrupt house regards closed shop practices and conduct strike ballots then correct.


Kinnock had no choice but to deal with Militant Tendancy, and look at Derek Hatton now. His red principals went out with his permed mullet.


He was a plonker and a loser, although him and his wife coined it in big time at the Brussels pig trough.

[Hibbyradge]

If by butchered you mean forced to reform their wholly corrupt house regards closed shop practices and conduct strike ballots then correct.


Kinnock had no choice but to deal with Militant Tendancy, and look at Derek Hatton now. His red principals went out with his permed mullet.


He was a plonker and a loser, although him and his wife coined it in big time at the Brussels pig trough.

More insight from you. How honoured I am to read this stuff.

Pray tell, in which ways was Neil Kinnock a plonker?

I love your erroneous use of the phrase, "no choice" by the way.

There are always choices.

[LeighLoyal]

More insight from you. How honoured I am to read this stuff.

Pray tell, in which ways was Neil Kinnock a plonker?

I love your erroneous use of the phrase, "no choice" by the way.

There are always choices.


Of course he had no choice . The militants were taking over the party and driving out the centrists who had already formed the SDP. If he'd let the trots continue there would be no Labour party today, and no bad thing it would have been as the reality is they are no real friend of the British working classes. They were once the party of the cloth capped union member worker but then they sold out to the EU and airy fairy pc garbage. I've no idea whose interests they represent now. Some international equality/workers alliance or something. They certainly cannot run the economy.


Kinnock was a wind bag, possibly the most ineffective and useless front bench leader in British political history. He let Thatch off time again with his empty bluster, most infamously the Westland scandal in 86 when Thatch had to be convinced not to resign only for Kinnock to make the worst speech parliament ever heard. It's no accident that their fortunes improved as soon as he was gone. The fact he lost an election so heavily to a weak leader like Major says it all.

[Jonnyboy]

Kinnock would never have made PM - according to Billy Connolly who confirmed that being a ginge, Kinnock wouldn't have been able to visit hot countries :wink:

[snooky]

Celebrating the death of anyone negates "class".

Hence the ref to Tongue-in-cheek smiley unavailable. :rolleyes:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Of course he had no choice . The militants were taking over the party and driving out the centrists who had already formed the SDP. If he'd let the trots continue there would be no Labour party today, and no bad thing it would have been as the reality is they are no real friend of the British working classes. They were once the party of the cloth capped union member worker but then they sold out to the EU and airy fairy pc garbage. I've no idea whose interests they represent now. Some international equality/workers alliance or something. They certainly cannot run the economy.


Kinnock was a wind bag, possibly the most ineffective and useless front bench leader in British political history. He let Thatch off time again with his empty bluster, most infamously the Westland scandal in 86 when Thatch had to be convinced not to resign only for Kinnock to make the worst speech parliament ever heard. It's no accident that their fortunes improved as soon as he was gone. The fact he lost an election so heavily to a weak leader like Major says it all.

Can you get any more patronising?


I wasn't crazy about Thatch at all, but looking back thank god Kinnock never became PM. What a plonker of a man. Trade unions needed reformed and the public sector was way too big and wasteful. Still is regards pensions, I'll be working to 68 to pay public sector pensions.

It's really good of you to make the effort.

I think it's time those public sector workers put in a bit more effort. They could start by accepting a four year pay freeze, and 15% hike in their pension contributions. It's the least they can do to help out those banks.

[Killiehibbie]

Can you get any more patronising?



It's really good of you to make the effort.

I think it's time those public sector workers put in a bit more effort. They could start by accepting a four year pay freeze, and 15% hike in their pension contributions. It's the least they can do to help out those banks.
All these well paid nurses can maybe even work an extra 8 or 10 years before getting their pension. They might even find the rules get changed again so that they can pay more and help out even longer.

[Phil D. Rolls]

All these well paid nurses can maybe even work an extra 8 or 10 years before getting their pension. They might even find the rules get changed again so that they can pay more and help out even longer.

Personally, I think they should be shot if they don't start paying the public for the priviledge of doing their jobs. They always bang on about how personally fulfilling the work is, time they put something back IMO.

[Killiehibbie]

Personally, I think they should be shot if they don't start paying the public for the priviledge of doing their jobs. They always bang on about how personally fulfilling the work is, time they put something back IMO.
They should be glad to work til they drop, saves them being a drain on resources.

[Beefster]

All these well paid nurses can maybe even work an extra 8 or 10 years before getting their pension. They might even find the rules get changed again so that they can pay more and help out even longer.

Everyone is going to have to work longer. I don't think nurses are special in that regard. One of the perks of life expectancy rocketing in the past century.

If anyone wants to retire earlier though, they can put more away.

[Killiehibbie]

Everyone is going to have to work longer. I don't think nurses are special in that regard. One of the perks of life expectancy rocketing in the past century.

If anyone wants to retire earlier though, they can put more away.
Depends if you're in the kind of job that your body will allow you to work into your dotage.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Everyone is going to have to work longer. I don't think nurses are special in that regard. One of the perks of life expectancy rocketing in the past century.

If anyone wants to retire earlier though, they can put more away.

I can think of a few good reasons not to have a 70 year old nurse looking after me. But like you say, we're all in it together, and it's nurses career choice.

I'm sure everyone else is putting away extra cash for their non- retirement to the tune of 15% of their salary, and I know there are lots of bankers and the like that haven't had a pay rise for over four years.

[Corstorphine Hibby]

Can you get any more patronising?



It's really good of you to make the effort.

I think it's time those public sector workers put in a bit more effort. They could start by accepting a four year pay freeze, and 15% hike in their pension contributions. It's the least they can do to help out those banks.

Seems reasonable to me in return for a final salary pension scheme and sick pay of six months full pay, six months half pay.

[LeighLoyal]

Seems reasonable to me in return for a final salary pension scheme and sick pay of six months full pay, six months half pay.


If the country goes bust like Greece they won't get their fat pensions, there is the irony. Best stay in the UK and vote Conservative if you're one of the one third of Scotland counting on a fat public service pension. I actually doubt the country, independent Scotland or UK, will be able to sustain the public pensions for many more years if we don't see economic growth return and tax collection with it. We're losing premium tax payers to emigration and replacing them with unskilled low wage immigrants, that's a big part of why the treasury can't get the deficit down.

[Betty Boop]

If the country goes bust like Greece they won't get their fat pensions, there is the irony. Best stay in the UK and vote Conservative if you're one of the one third of Scotland counting on a fat public service pension. I actually doubt the country, independent Scotland or UK, will be able to sustain the public pensions for many more years if we don't see economic growth return and tax collection with it. We're losing premium tax payers to emigration and replacing them with unskilled low wage immigrants, that's a big part of why the treasury can't get the deficit down.

When all is lost let's blame the immigrants. Immigrants are not to blame for the state of the economy, and neither are public service workers.

[yeezus.]

When all is lost let's blame the immigrants. Immigrants are not to blame for the state of the economy, and neither are public service workers.

:agree: My old Economics lecturer said exactly the same thing. He actually argued that immigration helps the economy - but also highlighted the fact that if all else fails, the British see fit to blame immigrants.

[Peevemor]

:agree: My old Economics lecturer said exactly the same thing. He actually argued that immigration helps the economy - but also highlighted the fact that if all else fails, the British see fit to blame immigrants.

Not just the British.

[yeezus.]

Not just the British.

Correct, but that particular lecture was on the UK economy.

[Beefster]

When all is lost let's blame the immigrants. Immigrants are not to blame for the state of the economy, and neither are public service workers.

Agreed. Neither are 99.99% of folk that work in the private sector.

[Jonnyboy]

If the country goes bust like Greece they won't get their fat pensions, there is the irony. Best stay in the UK and vote Conservative if you're one of the one third of Scotland counting on a fat public service pension. I actually doubt the country, independent Scotland or UK, will be able to sustain the public pensions for many more years if we don't see economic growth return and tax collection with it. We're losing premium tax payers to emigration and replacing them with unskilled low wage immigrants, that's a big part of why the treasury can't get the deficit down.

Can you define in detail what you consider to be a 'fat pension'?

When call me Dave was elected and got into cahoots with that wimp Clegg they immediately started their divisive tactics by attacking public service workers, using inmflammatory language like 'fat pensions' in order to set private sector workers against public service workers. I was stunned, and remain so, at how many folk were and are gullible enough to swallow that tripe. The vast majority of public service workers get a pension bordering on anorexic.

Also, can you explain how many so called premium tax payers have buggered off from the UK when all this coalition has done is bend over backwards to ensure their tax burden is not increased and has chosen instead to claw the money back from those who can least afford it.

All in this together? Are we ****

[Beefster]

The vast majority of public service workers get a pension bordering on anorexic.

I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. There's no such thing as an anorexic defined benefit pension. The vast majority of public sector workers get a very good pension, in relation to their salary and length of service, compared to a similar (in salary and service) private sector worker.

It's a union trick to say that the average public sector pension is only "£xxxx" without actually saying what the average service and salary would be in comparison.

[Geo_1875]

I'll happily give up my fat public service ppension entitlement if the government compensate me with backdated pay comparison increases.

[lord bunberry]

I'll happily give up my fat public service ppension entitlement if the government compensate me with backdated pay comparison increases.

In comparison to what

[RyeSloan]

In comparison to what

Maybe to the pay rises I have had to give the vast majority of my (private sector) staff in the last 3 years: 0%, 0% and 0%?

The cold fact is that in the vast majority of cases (if not all) defined benefit pensions are not affordable considering the length of service/contributions v length of retirement.

The shortfall must be made up from somewhere. In the case of private sector that is often the company themselves having to fund the shortfall (essentially diverting money away from investing in their business and current staff by giving it to staff that may have left many many years ago) or in the case of the public sector I assume it will be from current taxation or by diverting spending from current staff/services to pension provision...

[Jonnyboy]

I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. There's no such thing as an anorexic defined benefit pension. The vast majority of public sector workers get a very good pension, in relation to their salary and length of service, compared to a similar (in salary and service) private sector worker.

It's a union trick to say that the average public sector pension is only "£xxxx" without actually saying what the average service and salary would be in comparison.

Fair do's I may have over egged it but calling these pensions 'fat' implies they are huge in monetary times and they are not for the most part. I paid into the pension fund for 31 years so I aint getting something for nothing which some posters would have us believe

[lucky]

Public sector pensions were and are agreed terms and conditions. For years public sector workers had poorer pay than private sector but the overall terms included a decent pension compared to their salary. The people who get fat cat pensions are normally bankers or directors in the private sector not public sector workers.

FH you have some the worst politics I have heard for years, you sir are buffoon. You and your kind are driving fellow Scots to look at independence to get away from the worst excesses of the Tory party.

[Beefster]

You and your kind are driving fellow Scots to look at independence to get away from the worst excesses of the Tory party.

Which is strange because a centre-right party, untainted by an association with the Tories, would probably pose far more of a threat to the centre-left parties in an independent Scotland.

[Speedy]

Fair do's I may have over egged it but calling these pensions 'fat' implies they are huge in monetary times and they are not for the most part. I paid into the pension fund for 31 bears so I aint getting something for nothing which some posters would have us believe

You should start putting yourself first.

http://coachdipper.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/bears.jpeg

[Hibrandenburg]

Which is strange because a centre-right party, untainted by an association with the Tories, would probably pose far more of a threat to the centre-left parties in an independent Scotland.

Which speaks volumes for the current political situation. A centre right party in an independent Scotland would concentrate on Scottish issue in contrast to the UK's centre right which isn't interested in Scottish issues due to there being no votes for them here.

[Beefster]

Which speaks volumes for the current political situation. A centre right party in an independent Scotland would concentrate on Scottish issue in contrast to the UK's centre right which isn't interested in Scottish issues due to there being no votes for them here.

That's not actually true but sounds good to folk who just automatically hate the Tories. Like all governments since Blair exited the stage, this lot are useless though.

[marinello59]

Which speaks volumes for the current political situation. A centre right party in an independent Scotland would concentrate on Scottish issue in contrast to the UK's centre right which isn't interested in Scottish issues due to there being no votes for them here.

I don't have much time for the Tories but that is nonsense. They got around 16% of the popular vote at the last general and Scottish elections. That's still a decent amount of votes. I think they out performed the Lib dems, don't see anybody suggesting they are not interested in Scottish issues. I am actually quite surprised how well the Tories adapted to the reality of Devolution, they look much more comfortable with it than Labour ever has.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's not actually true but sounds good to folk who just automatically hate the Tories. Like all governments since Blair exited the stage, this lot are useless though.

Course it's true and to suggest that decades of Scottish rejection of the Tories is due to us being mug enough to swallow some Labour jingles is papering over the real reasons.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't have much time for the Tories but that is nonsense. They got around 16% of the popular vote at the last general and Scottish elections. That's still a decent amount of votes. I think they out performed the Lib dems, don't see anybody suggesting they are not interested in Scottish issues. I am actually quite surprised how well the Tories adapted to the reality of Devolution, they look much more comfortable with it than Labour ever has.

Alone in my lifetime there have been several occasions where the Scottish Tories have bowed to the pressure of their Westminster masters to the disadvantage of the people here in Scotland, however an independent centre right party in an independent Scotland has the potential to flourish.

[lord bunberry]

Alone in my lifetime there have been several occasions where the Scottish Tories have bowed to the pressure of their Westminster masters to the disadvantage of the people here in Scotland, however an independent centre right party in an independent Scotland has the potential to flourish.

During the last tory leadership campaign in scotland one of the candidates was advocating a break from the UK tory party. I thought at the time it sounded a sensible idea but they didn't go for him

[allmodcons]

Which speaks volumes for the current political situation. A centre right party in an independent Scotland would concentrate on Scottish issue in contrast to the UK's centre right which isn't interested in Scottish issues due to there being no votes for them here.

:agree: Personally speaking I would not vote for a centre right party in a UK election or in an Independent Scotland.

FWIW the UK centre right in the form of the Conservative Party faces a completely different scenario from what I'd envisage a centre right political party in an Independent Scotland would face.

If you look at successive Conservative Governments you'll find (without exception) that their politics are driven by fear of their own right wing. In the case of the present Government, this has been exacerbated by the presence of UKIP. IMO many of the decisions they've taken in order to placate their own back benchers have been detrimental to Scotland.

I don't see this scenario 'panning out' in an Independent Scotland. With the odd exception, IMO most of the current Conversative Group at Holyrood are right of centre but not, by any stretch, far right. As for UKIP, most scots have more sense than to engage with them - they recorded 5% in Scotland at the last European Election and only 1% at the last Scottish Election - a complete contrast to their 'success' in England.

[Betty Boop]

:agree: Personally speaking I would not vote for a centre right party in a UK election or in an Independent Scotland.

FWIW the UK centre right in the form of the Conservative Party faces a completely different scenario from what I'd envisage a centre right political party in an Independent Scotland would face.

If you look at successive Conservative Governments you'll find (without exception) that their politics are driven by fear of their own right wing. In the case of the present Government, this has been exacerbated by the presence of UKIP. IMO many of the decisions they've taken in order to placate their own back benchers have been detrimental to Scotland.

I don't see this scenario 'panning out' in an Independent Scotland. With the odd exception, IMO most of the current Conversative Group at Holyrood are right of centre but not, by any stretch, far right. As for UKIP, most scots have more sense than to engage with them - they recorded 5% in Scotland at the last European Election and only 1% at the last Scottish Election - a complete contrast to their 'success' in England.


Are the SNP not edging to the right ?

[Sylar]

Are the SNP not edging to the right ?

I'm confused as to what makes you think that? Abolition of prescription fees for all, abolition of tuition fees for Scottish students, the council tax freeze and the free care for the elderly bill...

All sounds more "lefty" than migrating to the right to me?

[allmodcons]

Are the SNP not edging to the right ?


I'm confused as to what makes you think that? Abolition of prescription fees for all, abolition of tuition fees for Scottish students, the council tax freeze and the free care for the elderly bill...

All sounds more "lefty" than migrating to the right to me?

Aye, why would you think that BB? Hope you're not falling for the old 'Tartan Tories' spin!!

[Hibrandenburg]

:agree: Personally speaking I would not vote for a centre right party in a UK election or in an Independent Scotland.

FWIW the UK centre right in the form of the Conservative Party faces a completely different scenario from what I'd envisage a centre right political party in an Independent Scotland would face.

If you look at successive Conservative Governments you'll find (without exception) that their politics are driven by fear of their own right wing. In the case of the present Government, this has been exacerbated by the presence of UKIP. IMO many of the decisions they've taken in order to placate their own back benchers have been detrimental to Scotland.

I don't see this scenario 'panning out' in an Independent Scotland. With the odd exception, IMO most of the current Conversative Group at Holyrood are right of centre but not, by any stretch, far right. As for UKIP, most scots have more sense than to engage with them - they recorded 5% in Scotland at the last European Election and only 1% at the last Scottish Election - a complete contrast to their 'success' in England.

That's the bit that can never change as long as we're a part of the UK, it's the nature of the beast and by no means unique to the Tories.

[Jonnyboy]

You should start putting yourself first.

http://coachdipper.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/bears.jpeg

:greengrin oops

[NAE NOOKIE]

I wasn't crazy about Thatch at all, but looking back thank god Kinnock never became PM. What a plonker of a man. Trade unions needed reformed and the public sector was way too big and wasteful. Still is regards pensions, I'll be working to 68 to pay public sector pensions.

Thats the spirit Falkirk ....... Buy into the public sector are the root of all evil spin shoved in your face by the right wing press and their fat cat pals in the C.B.I .... just lap it up mate. Of course folk in the public sector will be able to retire at 60 and 65 while you have to work on ..... wont they ?

The reason you and I will be working to 68 isnt because of public sector spending or public sector pensions. Its because people like Thatcher encouraged the greediest people in society to create tons and tons of cash for themselves without thinking about the possible consequences.

Its because billions and billions and billions of pounds of your money and my money was needed to keep the banks afloat, because the consequences of any of them going under was unthinkable

When the inevitable happened and the whole house of cards collapsed the bankers and rich business men and women stayed rich .... The millionaires continue to run the world and governments ( as the do now in the UK ) ............ A few bankers paid the price by getting the bullet and slinked off with their tails between their legs to count their millions, which surprise, surprise they still have ... Fred Goodwin anybody?

Nah ...... The right wing businessmen, press barons and old school tie network cronies who are the power in this country made noises about bankers and all that ..... but the truth was they needed a scapegoat who the Proles could be suckered into accepting are to blame for the fact that folk will have to now work longer for less.

Hmmm!!! ..... Who could it be ... who can we feed to the simple unwashed masses to deflect attention from the true cause of this mess and the true cause of why folk will have to work till they drop.

Got it !!! ...... The public sector ... bin men, nurses, civil servants. police men, local government workers ..... yer simple hard working honest working class Johnny will be just dumb enough to swallow that.

As for trade unions ... they have been reformed all right ... now they are for the most part impotent, to the detriment of the working conditions and standard of living of thousands of workers. Just as the right wing establishment of this country wanted.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

The game is to keep the rich and privileged in charge and the peasants in their place .... Its easy, just give them a Bogey man to blame while we get on with the important stuff like making money and giving each other titles.


Suckers.

[Beefster]

The reason you and I will be working to 68 isnt because of public sector spending or public sector pensions. Its because people like Thatcher encouraged the greediest people in society to create tons and tons of cash for themselves without thinking about the possible consequences.

So nothing to do with increasing life expectancy then?

How does some investment banker or venture capitalist getting rich affect my pension?

[Big Ed]

Thats the spirit Falkirk ....... Buy into the public sector are the root of all evil spin shoved in your face by the right wing press and their fat cat pals in the C.B.I .... just lap it up mate. Of course folk in the public sector will be able to retire at 60 and 65 while you have to work on ..... wont they ?

The reason you and I will be working to 68 isnt because of public sector spending or public sector pensions. Its because people like Thatcher encouraged the greediest people in society to create tons and tons of cash for themselves without thinking about the possible consequences.

When the inevitable happened and the whole house of cards collapsed the bankers and rich business men and women stayed rich .... The millionaires continue to run the world and governments ( as the do now in the UK ) ............ A few bankers paid the price by getting the bullet and slinked off with their tails between their legs to count their millions, which surprise, surprise they still have ... Fred Goodwin anybody?

Nah ...... The right wing businessmen, press barons and old school tie network cronies who are the power in this country made noises about bankers and all that ..... but the truth was they needed a scapegoat who the Proles would be happy to accept were really to blame for the fact that their greed had brought the western world to its economic knees.

Hmmm!!! ..... Who could it be ... who can we feed to the simple unwashed masses to deflect attention from the true cause of this mess and the true cause of why folk will have to work till they drop.

Got it !!! ...... The public sector ... bin men, nurses, civil servants. police men, local government workers ..... yer simple hard working honest working class Johnny will be just dumb enough to swallow that.

As for trade unions ... they have been reformed all right ... now they are for the most part impotent, to the detriment of the working conditions and standard of living of thousands of workers. Just as the right wing establishment of this country wanted.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

The game is to keep the rich and privileged in charge and the peasants in their place .... Its easy, just give them a Bogey man to blame while we get on with the important stuff.


Suckers.

I'd like to have simply posted the 10/10 smiley and left it at that, but you forgot to mention the Poles and the Muslims :tsk tsk:

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'd like to have simply posted the 10/10 smiley and left it at that, but you forgot to mention the Poles and the Muslims :tsk tsk:

What have Poles, Muslims ... or Polish muslims got to do with anything ? They certainly have nothing to do with this argument.

[NAE NOOKIE]

So nothing to do with increasing life expectancy then?

How does some investment banker or venture capitalist getting rich affect my pension?

If Falkirk's post had said anything about increased life expectancy I would have agreed that on a social level that is a factor .... an aging population obviously is. But thats not what he was talking about.


As for your second question ....... Didnt you read my post?

[Big Ed]

What have Poles, Muslims ... or Polish muslims got to do with anything ? They certainly have nothing to do with this argument.

Check out post #102

[NAE NOOKIE]

Check out post #102

Oh dear ..... see what you mean.

Lovin' the fat pension statement in that post ............... If I had a quid for every time I heard that tired auld tat I could retire now.

[allmodcons]

The reason you and I will be working to 68 isnt because of public sector spending or public sector pensions. Its because people like Thatcher encouraged the greediest people in society to create tons and tons of cash for themselves without thinking about the possible consequences.




:agree: This was what Thatcherism was all about! Forget about community - look after number 1- the politics of greed.
IMO she should take a fair share of the blame for the huge gap that exists between the rich and the poor in the UK now.

[PatHead]

Haven't read all the posts but remember Thatcher times as being greed and the creation of the "me, me" society. The ruin of communites of Scotland and the creation of a "blame everything on Thatcher" society at the same time. I live in Midlothian which suffered more than most. Despise the woman and wouldn't pee on her grave but might change that when I hear the BBC plaudits and will probably raise a glass to toast the death of the most evil woman in the history of UK

[Sylar]

Aye, why would you think that BB? Hope you're not falling for the old 'Tartan Tories' spin!!

Any chance of an answer BB or are you unable?

[Betty Boop]

Any chance of an answer BB or are you unable?

Eh their u-turn on NATO, the Queen, intention to cut corporation tax etc.

[21.05.2016]

I see that she's in hospital again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20820887 and given her ill health and age it probably won't be long before she shuffles off.

Which raises the question as to how Scotland reacts when it does happen?

Has time mellowed your view of the Iron Lady? Or will it be street parties and drinks all round?

We will soon find out :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

That bitch took my milk away. Rot in hell, you wicked woman.