Why Hibs struggle to attract decent players?

[rcarter1]

As we watch our season drift in the direction of Yogi Hughes 2009/10 season, I keep reading about how teams with smaller budgets do better than us consistently.

For one reason or another since Mowbray we have developed into one of the poorest, weakest midfields in the SPL. Good strikers - Griffiths, Oconnor, Stokes have managed to hide the fact that we are bottom six material and have been for years.

The defence is getting stick, but a paperweight midfield will put any defence under pressure. I can think of two SPL games this season where we have dominated the game (win vs Dundee,loss vs aberdeen at home). The other 16 games we have been no better and often far worse than the opponents.

With our supposed better wages why aren't the SPLs better midfielders at Motherwell and the likes knocking on our door?

I get the immpression that the rest of Scottish football have little respect for Hibs and people have little interest within the league in signing for us for some reason.

I have to say Im sick of our almost child-like midfields that we seem to operate with, if I were Pat Fenlon I would focus 100% on getting some hard, tall, aggressive guys in the middle. Forget about silky, lets just start making teams hate playing us - we said all this after the Cup Final ffs!

[nonshinyfinish]

If the problem is our midfield not retaining the ball, doesn't that suggest that we need better footballers, rather than taller footballers?

[Baldy Foghorn]

If the problem is our midfield not retaining the ball, doesn't that suggest that we need better footballers, rather than taller footballers?

Yip, it really doesn't matter if we have a small midfield, if we can't do the basics, like passing to a team mate, or playing the ball on the deck.....I'm sure Iniesta is quite wee, but at least he can manage the fundementals

[Iceman1875]

I hear what the original poster is saying but for me we have missed Deegan recently and if he wasn't out for so long I believe we would be a few points better off than we are just now. What we need is a Yaya Toure :D

[neil7908]

If the problem is our midfield not retaining the ball, doesn't that suggest that we need better footballers, rather than taller footballers?

Spot on. Its a horrible cliche but very relvant after today - the best form of defence is attack. There's no doubt or defence is still needing a lot of work but for me the basis of any good team is a midfield. We've scored some really great goals this year and there is an excellent football team not far off based on these group of players but still need to show some consistency with our distribution. This would take a lot of weight of the defence as they are often having to deal with wave after wave of attacks. Even the best defence in the world cant hold out forever under incessant pressure.

[Reaper]

I disagree that we fail to attract top players. I feel its more down to the fact that we've appointed poor managers, who had a very narrow knowledge of playing staff throughout the country and abroad AND our scouting system is letting us down. Williamson was a great example, he signed players predominantly from the Scottish leagues and at the time it was argued he wanted players that would fit straight into the system and be up to speed with the Scottish game BUT he moved to Plymouth and he signed alot of the same players.

I felt that Hughes was the same and Calderwood (although he signed players from England, it was players he knew like Thornhill). Like I said its down to the manager not just to broaden their knowledge of playing staff available on a grander scale than the country they manage in but to also appoint the staff around them that can contribute effectively to recruitment.

Fenlon arrived and immediately looked to the Irish league. Nothing wrong with the theory behind it because he knew the players there and Doyles not worked out bad at all. However, when he arrived he had BB as a number two who proved at Killie and Hearts that him and JJ had a very chanelled, parochial agenda when signing players.

Also we have to remember that we are a bigger club than the likes of Motherwell, Kilmarnock etc, therefore we'll suffer slightly with more media interest in our transfer dealings, which as a result are harder to keep a secret. When Sproule, O'Connor, Griffiths were coming we all knew/had wind of it ages before it happened. How many of us knew Motherwell were signing Ojamma, Humphreys, Juckiewitz etc before it happened?

[Devilstorment]

As we watch our season drift in the direction of Yogi Hughes 2009/10 season, I keep reading about how teams with smaller budgets do better than us consistently.

For one reason or another since Mowbray we have developed into one of the poorest, weakest midfields in the SPL. Good strikers - Griffiths, Oconnor, Stokes have managed to hide the fact that we are bottom six material and have been for years.

The defence is getting stick, but a paperweight midfield will put any defence under pressure. I can think of two SPL games this season where we have dominated the game (win vs Dundee,loss vs aberdeen at home). The other 16 games we have been no better and often far worse than the opponents.

With our supposed better wages why aren't the SPLs better midfielders at Motherwell and the likes knocking on our door?

I get the immpression that the rest of Scottish football have little respect for Hibs and people have little interest within the league in signing for us for some reason.

I have to say Im sick of our almost child-like midfields that we seem to operate with, if I were Pat Fenlon I would focus 100% on getting some hard, tall, aggressive guys in the middle. Forget about silky, lets just start making teams hate playing us - we said all this after the Cup Final ffs!


Lets not panic quite yet!

[madabouthibs]

Probably be a lot of players currently playing in Scotland that would see Hibs as a high pressure/low rewards career choice.
A poison chalice perhaps? There's not many players signed for us over the last 5 or 6 years that have went onto better things, or improved dramatically while playing with us. In fact a few have probably taken a step back. :rolleyes:

We (the fans) expect to sign players to help us progress, but we seem to have the ability to potentially ruin careers. I mean, just for example, Paul Hanlon isn't the Scotland Under 21 captain because he's crap, and Chris Hogg wasn't an England Youth player for no reason. We're probably fortunate we got shot of Thomson/Brown/Murphy/Oconnor (first time)/Riordan/Whittaker when we did, and at least got some money for them!
We can't afford players when they're at their peak, we need to either gamble on potential, or experienced journeymen looking for that final pre-retirement contract. If anything, we LOSE players when they're at their peak! :confused:
I refuse to believe that its all to do with wages, I think a lot of players would rather play for a smaller team for a similar wage as they'd get at Hibs, but without the pressure that comes from playing for a "sleeping giant".

Just raving on, probably a loada pish, but I'm thinking aloud. :wink:

[markom127]

Lets not panic quite yet!

We dont have to panic, We arent top of the league. Hibs are going to Europe! haha

[basehibby]

I don't agree that we struggle to sign decent players - our money is the same colour as anyone elses and we have more of it than most in the league so the conclusion has to be that we have struggled to sign the right managers and/or have pressed the panic button too quickly when we've had a decent manager and not given them sufficient time to build.

Right now I think we do posess a more than decent manager and he will prove exactly that to us with each passing transfer window.

I was not at the game yesterday (sick) but even with the disappointing result I believe there has been significant progress which will be built upon in january and as a result we will NOT see a freefall in the new year similar to that presided over by Yogi in 2009/10.

[blackpoolhibs]

I don't agree that we struggle to sign decent players - our money is the same colour as anyone elses and we have more of it than most in the league so the conclusion has to be that we have struggled to sign the right managers and/or have pressed the panic button too quickly when we've had a decent manager and not given them sufficient time to build.

Right now I think we do posess a more than decent manager and he will prove exactly that to us with each passing transfer window.

I was not at the game yesterday (sick) but even with the disappointing result I believe there has been significant progress which will be built upon in january and as a result we will NOT see a freefall in the new year similar to that presided over by Yogi in 2009/10.

:agree:

[ancient hibee]

I think we are progressing and that by and large the manager knows his stuff.For example he obviously thought Doyle wasn't putting enough in so left him out at Inverness.Result-he had a good game yesterday and was unlucky not to score in the first minute after starting like he had a rocket up his backside,Fenlon made an error with his subs because it took pressure off Motherwell-if we had been ManUtd.with their players it would have been the right decision because we would have kept the ball for 30 minutes but we're not-we're an SPL team and it will have done no harm for Fenlon to be reminded of it.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

We have trouble attracting quality players because we play in the Scottish league and have no money but I don't think we have any more trouble than teams in the same league with comparable budgets. Maybe playing in Edinburgh gives us a relative advantage as its a desirable city to live in.

I'd say McPake, Cairney, Clancy and Deegan were all good SPL signings. The problem is PF has only had a couple of transfer windows which isn't enough to transform a bottom of the table team. Other than playing in the SPL and financial restrictions, we're still suffering from a lot of dubious signings CC made, not because there's something uniquely unattractive about playing for Hibs.

[Russell The Dug]

Because Celtic stole John Park and he's never been replaced.

[HibeeSince85]

Because Celtic stole John Park and he's never been replaced.

:agree:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

And as long as Celtc line up one to eleven with expensive buy-ins, he is wasting his time there.

[sahib]

If the problem is our midfield not retaining the ball, doesn't that suggest that we need better footballers, rather than taller footballers?

It takes more than just the midfield to retain the ball ( in my humble and purely layman's opinion).

[hfc rd]

Because Celtic stole John Park and he's never been replaced.


True. From what I hear, was that he played a massive part in the development of the golden generation plus some of the players we managed to sign back then like boozy, rocastle, shiels, killen etc. You can see smeltic are reaping some of the benefits with some of the youngsters coming through and also in the scouting network to identify players like Forster, Matthews, Wanyama etc.

[Hibercelona]

We attract good players. We just don't get anywhere near the best out of them.

Far too many times have I seen us lose games, simply because the players just didn't bother turning up.

You never see other teams in the league lose in the same manner as we do. But we seem to just accept it and come out with the same old clichés such as "bad day at the office", "work in progress".... etc

There should NEVER be a game that we lose, because we just didn't turn up. That should NEVER EVER happen.

[spike220]

We attract good players. We just don't get anywhere near the best out of them.

Far too many times have I seen us lose games, simply because the players just didn't bother turning up.

You never see other teams in the league lose in the same manner as we do. But we seem to just accept it and come out with the same old clichés such as "bad day at the office", "work in progress".... etc

There should NEVER be a game that we lose, because we just didn't turn up. That should NEVER EVER happen.

This:agree:

Our players are bloody good when compared to other squads in the SPL.

[blackpoolhibs]

We attract good players. We just don't get anywhere near the best out of them.

Far too many times have I seen us lose games, simply because the players just didn't bother turning up.

You never see other teams in the league lose in the same manner as we do. But we seem to just accept it and come out with the same old clichés such as "bad day at the office", "work in progress".... etc

There should NEVER be a game that we lose, because we just didn't turn up. That should NEVER EVER happen.

Inverness 1 Motherwell 5.

Motherwell 0 Hibs 4

[Iceman1875]

I think we attract players who are at our level, a top 4 club in Scotland pushing for silverware each season, albeit in the cups. The issue for me is the SPL, what decent championship player wants to come up here and play in front of mediocore crowds for league 1/2 wages, not many. Even Celtic, despite their good european run struggle to attract high end championship players / lower end EPL. The Motherwell/Inverness route of attracting youth players from the top clubs is the way to go IMHO. Give them a platform to perform and hope they get the bug to want to hang around ie McGirvan/Griffiths.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Lets not panic quite yet!

Well, I'm starting to get worried that no - one has blamed Petrie yet. By this stage in the season, there is usually at least one thread calling for a demonstration at the back of the stand. Even the fans can't be bothered any more, and there is only one man to blame, er.......

[heretoday]

I feel as the poster does a lot of the time. We see teams like Motherwell, Caley Thistle and United operating with industrious, strong and purposeful midfielders while we have lightweights on duty.

Yet we are near the top of the league this season!

It's been a problem for years though.

[Since90+2]

The fact Jim Goodwin chose to stay with St Mirren rather than sign for us tells you all you need to know about how we are viewed in the SPL. Unfortunately , rightly or wrongly , Hearts and Aberdeen are viewed as bigger clubs and we just dont have the pulling power in Scotland.

[NorthNorfolkHFC]

I think we attract players who are at our level, a top 4 club in Scotland pushing for silverware each season, albeit in the cups. The issue for me is the SPL, what decent championship player wants to come up here and play in front of mediocore crowds for league 1/2 wages, not many. Even Celtic, despite their good european run struggle to attract high end championship players / lower end EPL. The Motherwell/Inverness route of attracting youth players from the top clubs is the way to go IMHO. Give them a platform to perform and hope they get the bug to want to hang around ie McGirvan/Griffiths.

Its not the SPL. We have to be better at a. bringing talent through and b. spotting talent.

We don't always need championship players as thats what most of our players will probably aspire to. We need to be cleverer at sourcing players from lower leagues in England and the same in Scotland.

[Russell The Dug]

The fact Jim Goodwin chose to stay with St Mirren rather than sign for us tells you all you need to know about how we are viewed in the SPL. Unfortunately , rightly or wrongly , Hearts and Aberdeen are viewed as bigger clubs and we just dont have the pulling power in Scotland.


At the same time we took Clancy from Motherwell and beat other SPL sides to the signing of Cairney. I see what your saying though, success attracts, the better the management and the side do the more attractive we will be for players to come and play for us.

[truehibernian]

The fact Jim Goodwin chose to stay with St Mirren rather than sign for us tells you all you need to know about how we are viewed in the SPL. Unfortunately , rightly or wrongly , Hearts and Aberdeen are viewed as bigger clubs and we just dont have the pulling power in Scotland.

Nonsense - when it comes to SPL football it comes down to contracts and money - sometimes the sentiment of who you support leans in your favour too. Don't kid yourself that the clubs you mentioned are seen as bigger clubs by those that sign for them. It all boils down to the money they'll earn at the end of the day.

I watched Johnny Hayes at Tynecastle two weeks ago - he had a stinker. Hibs target in summer and he went there because his other half studies up there and the money was decent. Nothing to do with Hibs being a less attractive footballing option. Barr went to Hearts for more money - it was that simple. Hamill went more to do with money and having worked with JJ and Brown previously. Russell Anderson went to the Dons because his kids go to school there and he is a fan of the club - again, a simple decision. Jim Goodwin was offered a longer contract and more cash - at a club where he was an already established captain and 'cult hero'.

Hibs have also been a bottom 6 club the last two seasons - sometimes players aren't up for the fight and want an 'easier' option.

Hibernian Football Club are an attractive proposition for any player in Scotland and are in no way viewed or should they be viewed as any less of a club as the ones you highlighted - only Celtic and the lure of Europe and the league titles are ahead of anyone else in 'attractiveness'.

This January window will be more revealing - we are not in a relegation dog fight and we are top half of the table. Certain players will view that as a real positive and commit. I've no doubt.

Plus I wouldn't particularly want to play under McGlynn or Jack and Victor.

[Russell The Dug]

Nonsense - when it comes to SPL football it comes down to contracts and money - sometimes the sentiment of who you support leans in your favour too. Don't kid yourself that the clubs you mentioned are seen as bigger clubs by those that sign for them. It all boils down to the money they'll earn at the end of the day.

I watched Johnny Hayes at Tynecastle two weeks ago - he had a stinker. Hibs target in summer and he went there because his other half studies up there and the money was decent. Nothing to do with Hibs being a less attractive footballing option. Barr went to Hearts for more money - it was that simple. Hamill went more to do with money and having worked with JJ and Brown previously. Russell Anderson went to the Dons because his kids go to school there and he is a fan of the club - again, a simple decision. Jim Goodwin was offered a longer contract and more cash - at a club where he was an already established captain and 'cult hero'.

Hibs have also been a bottom 6 club the last two seasons - sometimes players aren't up for the fight and want an 'easier' option.

Hibernian Football Club are an attractive proposition for any player in Scotland and are in no way viewed or should they be viewed as any less of a club as the ones you highlighted - only Celtic and the lure of Europe and the league titles are ahead of anyone else in 'attractiveness'.

This January window will be more revealing - we are not in a relegation dog fight and we are top half of the table. Certain players will view that as a real positive and commit. I've no doubt.

Plus I wouldn't particularly want to play under McGlynn or Jack and Victor.

If it comes down to money Aberdeen and Hearts offer more than us therefore making them more attractive prospects than us.

[truehibernian]

If it comes down to money Aberdeen and Hearts offer more than us therefore making them more attractive prospects than us.

His point was they are 'bigger clubs' and they have 'more pulling power' - yes, I agree with you, sometimes they pay more money - but in some cases they don't. And they are not bigger clubs than Hibs. They are comparable, not bigger - in my eyes.

[Since90+2]

His point was they are 'bigger clubs' and they have 'more pulling power' - yes, I agree with you, sometimes they pay more money - but in some cases they don't. And they are not bigger clubs than Hibs. They are comparable, not bigger - in my eyes.

I would probably agree that we are roughly the same size of club as Hearts and Aberdeen.

My point was that outside of Edinburgh IMO Hearts and Aberdeen are viewed as bigger clubs and we are probably seen as nearer to Dundee Utd and Motherwell. Could be my view is completely wrong but its just the impression I get when talking to fans of other teams and listening to radio stations ect

[Hibercelona]

Inverness 1 Motherwell 5.

Motherwell 0 Hibs 4

What point are you trying to make? :confused:

The scoreline has nothing to do with the "manner" in which you win or lose games.

You can win by a big scoreline, even when you're not playing well. Just as you can lose by a big scoreline, even when you're playing reasonably well. These things happen in football.

But whenever I see Hibs lose a game these days, its because we completely lose the plot for some reason.

[VPHIBEE]

As we watch our season drift in the direction of Yogi Hughes 2009/10 season, I keep reading about how teams with smaller budgets do better than us consistently.

For one reason or another since Mowbray we have developed into one of the poorest, weakest midfields in the SPL. Good strikers - Griffiths, Oconnor, Stokes have managed to hide the fact that we are bottom six material and have been for years.

The defence is getting stick, but a paperweight midfield will put any defence under pressure. I can think of two SPL games this season where we have dominated the game (win vs Dundee,loss vs aberdeen at home). The other 16 games we have been no better and often far worse than the opponents.

With our supposed better wages why aren't the SPLs better midfielders at Motherwell and the likes knocking on our door?

I get the immpression that the rest of Scottish football have little respect for Hibs and people have little interest within the league in signing for us for some reason.

I have to say Im sick of our almost child-like midfields that we seem to operate with, if I were Pat Fenlon I would focus 100% on getting some hard, tall, aggressive guys in the middle. Forget about silky, lets just start making teams hate playing us - we said all this after the Cup Final ffs!

it is a fact that other teams have been dominating and running throughout midfield for years now. We maybe have some more competitive guys in there than we have had in recent years, but a bit of height and physical presence would not go amiss. Instead of our midfield chasing around seeing who the opposing taller, more physical midfielders from the opposition are going to head the ball to. How about we sign someone who can win these high balls and have the opposition chasing us around for a change.

Just a thought!

[blackpoolhibs]

What point are you trying to make? :confused:

The scoreline has nothing to do with the "manner" in which you win or lose games.

You can win by a big scoreline, even when you're not playing well. Just as you can lose by a big scoreline, even when you're playing reasonably well. These things happen in football.

But whenever I see Hibs lose a game these days, its because we completely lose the plot for some reason.

And im only guessing, but i dont think you watched the Inverness game against Motherwell. But i'd say going by the score Inverness completely lost the plot, as thats what we are being accused of after a 1 goal defeat. FFS you would be bloody suicidal if we'd just lost 5-1 at home.

We lost a game of football at the weekend, we have also won quite a few recently, its how football works.

[ancient hibee]

Inverness have lost more goals than any other team-wonder how their fans feel with them fighting for second?

[rcarter1]

a bit of height and physical presence would not go amiss. Instead of our midfield chasing around seeing who the opposing taller, more physical midfielders from the opposition are going to head the ball to. How about we sign someone who can win these high balls and have the opposition chasing us around for a change.

Just a thought!

My thoughts exactly. Take two teams with equal ability in terms of passing, dribbling, touch and control. Add 4 inches of height to one team, and those longer legs, and taller heads will get more second balls than the other lot. When motherwell got the bit between their teeth we disappeared like shadows. Was it ability? attitude? fear? or physically we were outgunned? (like 90% of the derbys Ive watched over the years)

Im all for applauding the progress we've made, but from where I am looking in terms of quality we have progressed from 2nd bottom, to perhaps 4th or 5th bottom. If we lose our loanees without good replacements I can see us being 2nd bottom quality wise again pretty quick.

[joebakerforever]

My thoughts exactly. Take two teams with equal ability in terms of passing, dribbling, touch and control. Add 4 inches of height to one team, and those longer legs, and taller heads will get more second balls than the other lot. When motherwell got the bit between their teeth we disappeared like shadows. Was it ability? attitude? fear? or physically we were outgunned? (like 90% of the derbys Ive watched over the years)



:agree:

But remember it's now the Hibs way to be predominantly staffed by midgets in midfield & attack.

When Williams punts the ball up the park, the aerial battle is mainly lost by our guys.

Likewise in terms of physique, how often are Doyle, Wotherspoon, etc. easily brushed aside in close combat.

[Lucius Apuleius]

My thoughts exactly. Take two teams with equal ability in terms of passing, dribbling, touch and control. Add 4 inches of height to one team, and those longer legs, and taller heads will get more second balls than the other lot. When motherwell got the bit between their teeth we disappeared like shadows. Was it ability? attitude? fear? or physically we were outgunned? (like 90% of the derbys Ive watched over the years)

Im all for applauding the progress we've made, but from where I am looking in terms of quality we have progressed from 2nd bottom, to perhaps 4th or 5th bottom. If we lose our loanees without good replacements I can see us being 2nd bottom quality wise again pretty quick.

That Mr 1 is called progress and what we seek to attain.

[Septimus]

Maybe it all has something to do with the fact that a total stranger can walk up to one of our players and break his jaw. I'm not sure that many would like to come into a city where such things can happen.

[Mr White]

Maybe it all has something to do with the fact that a total stranger can walk up to one of our players and break his jaw. I'm not sure that many would like to come into a city where such things can happen.

That could happen in any town or city.

[blackpoolhibs]

I cant believe we have managed to go to parkhead and come away with a draw, or win 4-0 away at Motherwell, or even sit in 4th place and even been 2nd with a team full of midgets who are easily brushed off the ball.

I think we should all get down east mains, or even the entrance of easter road and let them know just how bad each and every one of them are.

Not forgetting to tell Pat Fenlon how tactically nieve he was at the weekend.

We shouldn't be doing as well as we are, and its about time they were told this.

[ahibby]

I would probably agree that we are roughly the same size of club as Hearts and Aberdeen.

My point was that outside of Edinburgh IMO Hearts and Aberdeen are viewed as bigger clubs and we are probably seen as nearer to Dundee Utd and Motherwell. Could be my view is completely wrong but its just the impression I get when talking to fans of other teams and listening to radio stations ect

Both Aberdeen and Hearts have won or came closer to winning leagues in the last thirty years or so than we have. They have better recent records with the Scottish Cup too. Hearts do tend to average bigger gates than we do over a season and Aberdeen have a city to themselves. I think it's for those reasons we are considered by the media to be smaller like Dundee Utd. I don't think anyone would argue that we are in the top five, as far as size goes, and when Aberdeen aren't doing well we are in the top four. Size doesn't really matter if you get the footballing side of things consistently/repeatedly wrong though, because you become a bit of a joke no matter what size you are. I should add that the same thing happens if you get the financial side of things wrong too.

[ahibby]

I cant believe we have managed to go to parkhead and come away with a draw, or win 4-0 away at Motherwell, or even sit in 4th place and even been 2nd with a team full of midgets who are easily brushed off the ball.

I think we should all get down east mains, or even the entrance of easter road and let them know just how bad each and every one of them are.

Not forgetting to tell Pat Fenlon how tactically nieve he was at the weekend.

We shouldn't be doing as well as we are, and its about time they were told this.

Yes that's right, we are no better than a top nine team, who have been in a false position.

[J-C]

We've been a small stature wise team for a while, set pieces are our achiles heel. Outwith the back 4, the rest are very small and it's noticeable at corners and free kicks. Don't think we're looking for giants, just a few extra inches would be nice.

[Mr White]

Well we had osbourne in our useless midfield last season which only goes to show its not just size that matters, it's what you do with it that counts.

[Cameron1875]

Well we had osbourne in our useless midfield last season which only goes to show its not just size that matters, it's what you do with it that counts.

http://i.imgur.com/Ay29K.jpg