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View Full Version : Sorry Pat, that was your fault/Substitutions (Merged)



3pm
15-12-2012, 05:03 PM
Dreadful.

Hibbyradge
15-12-2012, 05:06 PM
We totally dominated the first half and created about 8 good chances .

Well done.

So why concede all the possession after the break?

Frankly, we were lucky to score a second goal, the way we played.

As soon as we lost a goal, most folk around me could see a defeat was on the cards .

A tactical disaster.

Hibrandenburg
15-12-2012, 05:06 PM
Dreadful.


:agree: And submariners are all loopy as well.

#FromTheCapital
15-12-2012, 05:10 PM
Agree 100%, poor performance but extremely poor tactics

hibs4thecup1988
15-12-2012, 05:11 PM
I still think I'm dreaming.

The guy who said we should accept it and get over it is an idiot. No wonder we won't win things. The attitude is all wrong.

2 0 up and still don't feel comfortable that says it all. And then he goes and takes off 2 strikers who have over 20 goals between them. Yep very good. Just allowed them to pressure us. And we buckled

Pretty Boy
15-12-2012, 05:12 PM
I almost get Doyle going off, he looked shattered.

Griffiths is baffling. For whatever reason as soon as we scored the 2nd we sat deeper and deeper. We needed an outball, whilst Griffiths wasn't having his.best day he is an outball and had created a few half chances from not a lot previously.

It wasn't so much the subs for me, more the decision to start trying to protect a lead at 2-0 up. Obviously you don't commit as many men forward but everyman and his dog knows we aren't good enough defensively to sit in the way we did.

Diclonius
15-12-2012, 05:14 PM
Worst 30 minutes I've ever seen from Hibs and that says a lot.

We actually deserved to lose that game heavily and I never thought I'd say that with us comfortably 2-0 up.

Things need to bloody well improve starting at Killie or we're on course for our traditional Winter freefall.

Russell The Dug
15-12-2012, 05:14 PM
Absolutely shocking we lost this afternoon. Shut up shop when we get the second against the run of play.

Papers over cracks though, tough Christmas ahead too.

trev the hat
15-12-2012, 05:15 PM
Amateur tactics, suited to give Deegan a run out. Very disappointed in PF

carnoustiehibee
15-12-2012, 05:17 PM
Teams must love playing us. Far too soft.

hibee_girl
15-12-2012, 05:22 PM
There was absolutely no need for him to overload the midfield, they hadn't looked in any danger up to that point!

Bostonhibby
15-12-2012, 05:22 PM
I still think I'm dreaming.

The guy who said we should accept it and get over it is an idiot. No wonder we won't win things. The attitude is all wrong.

2 0 up and still don't feel comfortable that says it all. And then he goes and takes off 2 strikers who have over 20 goals between them. Yep very good. Just allowed them to pressure us. And we buckled

:agree: He must have taken advice from Yogi on what to do when you are ahead against motherwell - shocking and I hope its not the start of a seasonal slide......................

bigstu
15-12-2012, 05:22 PM
100% Fenlon's fault. He threw the match with his terrible tactics. The worst subs ever!

brydekirk
15-12-2012, 05:26 PM
Well well well, what do you have to say about that, Pat ?

Bobo
15-12-2012, 05:26 PM
Not for the first time this season Pat has shown himself to be tactically inept and todays' result perfectly sums up just how sadly lacking he is.

2-0 up and under no pressure yet he feels it prudent to withdraw both his strikers and concede possession and territory to the opposition when they previously showed no threat in the game .... Well Done Pat :bitchy:

Stevie Reid
15-12-2012, 05:32 PM
Pat picked the wrong team against Dundee Utd on the opening day of the season and held his hands up and admitted it - he hasn't got much wrong since then, but he definitely got it wrong today, and I fully expect him to admit that.

The Griffiths one I could understand but he took a huge gamble on us holding onto the lead (when we looked nowhere near capable of doing so) when he took Doyle off, and it backfired badly. The writing was on the wall as soon as the equaliser went in.

Still have every faith in Fenlon, today showed up our real lack of attacking options from the bench, hopefully that can be addressed in the window.

matty_f
15-12-2012, 05:34 PM
Subs were terrible today. Can sort of understand the desire to put another man in midfield but we lost any hope of keeping the ball as soon as we went one up front.

whereswallace?
15-12-2012, 05:34 PM
I cannot believe i have just watched us throw away 3 points, because no mistake thats what we, or should i say Fenlon has done today. 70mins gone, 2-0 up and whilst not cruising, relatively comfortable, we never looked in any great danger at that point. There was no need to try and close the game out at that stage, i dont remember even thinking make a change here Pat. Only he will know why he made the changes he did, but its cost us dearly today in my opinion, complete tactical failure.

SteveHFC
15-12-2012, 05:35 PM
His subs were a joke today

bingo70
15-12-2012, 05:35 PM
I think he made mistakes with his subs but we were well under the kosh before he made them so I can understand why he did.

I know this will get scoffed at, not even sure if he was on the bench but If he was I'd have brought kuqi on, we needed to start holding the ball up and although he's offered no threat he would have done that.

NorthNorfolkHFC
15-12-2012, 05:35 PM
Subs were terrible today. Can sort of understand the desire to put another man in midfield but we lost any hope of keeping the ball as soon as we went one up front.

I can't, we were getting pumped out wide. Not in the middle.

RickyS
15-12-2012, 05:36 PM
100% Fenlon's fault. He threw the match with his terrible tactics. The worst subs ever!

this! how to throw a game in 30 mins by paddy fenlon. :fuming:

Stevie Reid
15-12-2012, 05:36 PM
Pat picked the wrong team against Dundee Utd on the opening day of the season and held his hands up and admitted it - he hasn't got much wrong since then, but he definitely got it wrong today, and I fully expect him to admit that.

The Griffiths one I could understand but he took a huge gamble on us holding onto the lead (when we looked nowhere near capable of doing so) when he took Doyle off, and it backfired badly. The writing was on the wall as soon as the equaliser went in.

Still have every faith in Fenlon, today showed up our real lack of attacking options from the bench, hopefully that can be addressed in the window.

hibs4thecup1988
15-12-2012, 05:38 PM
I understand him taking the players off. It was the players coming on I couldn't quite grasp. Should have been straight subs. Sparky was rubbish for 60 minutes and doyle was shattered. But to bring midfielders on was incredible.

That's the problem here. It was the opposite against inverness at ER when we were 2 up he didn't make a sub at all. He needs to find the middle ground. But surely its not that difficult!

whereswallace?
15-12-2012, 05:39 PM
I think he made mistakes with his subs but we were well under the kosh before he made them so I can understand why he did.

I know this will get scoffed at, not even sure if he was on the bench but If he was I'd have brought kuqi on, we needed to start holding the ball up and although he's offered no threat he would have done that.


I didnt think we were under too much pressure until he took Griffiths off, as soon as he done that and went 1 up front,Motherwell took off a defender and threw on an attacking midfielder as they could afford to. Not having a go mate at your opinion by the way mate.

wheniwas5
15-12-2012, 05:40 PM
100% agree worst subs ever.
made to get deegan game time .
lost 4 out of last 5 not good

Frogga
15-12-2012, 05:40 PM
I think its easy to say in hindsight that he got it wrong. 4-5-1 doesn't seem to work for us as shown in inverness last week. I blame the players as much as pat.

wheniwas5
15-12-2012, 05:47 PM
the players xmas party is tonight , can anyone remember what the score was last year
when they had their party??
to me it looks like they switched off at 2nil and fenlons subs were a joke.

bingo70
15-12-2012, 05:47 PM
I didnt think we were under too much pressure until he took Griffiths off, as soon as he done that and went 1 up front,Motherwell took off a defender and threw on an attacking midfielder as they could afford to. Not having a go mate at your opinion by the way mate.

No offence taken.

My memory of it was that they were having loads of the ball so I was thinking pats got to do something here and he did.....but we got pumped!

From reading this thread and looking back on it I'm probably wrong, they were having lots of the ball but as people have said weren't offering much of a threat so maybe he should have left it, easy to say in hind sight though.

Frustrating day, especially the second half but first half we were good and I've not forgotten how bad we were last season yet so I'm not going to be too critical of fenlon.

jdships
15-12-2012, 05:48 PM
I make no apologies for posting this
I stayed away last year and was persuaded to return early this season but over the past few weeks the signs have been there that we still have major problems.
Mr Petrie appeals for supporters to turn up in greater numbers and I can see where he is coming from
However he seemingly forgets HFC is part of the entertainment business not a charity to be supported by a few thousand people willing to throw good money away !!!!!!!
Three friends plus myself , all in the same age bracket , were at the game today and we have all agreed that that is that
Given the weather the quality of football on show , allied to the cost , along with our ages, (all in our 80's ), we won't be back .
I attended my first match at ER in 1940 and it seems a nice tidy length of time , 72 years, to have attended my last .
For us nothing has been done over the past four years on a truely constructive basis ( it has all been promises,promises) and we can't see where the club is going in the next year or two

Will be lucky to finish in top six based on what is happening at this time

:rolleyes:

Famous5forever
15-12-2012, 05:53 PM
Worst 30 minutes I've ever seen from Hibs and that says a lot.

We actually deserved to lose that game heavily and I never thought I'd say that with us comfortably 2-0 up.

Things need to bloody well improve starting at Killie or we're on course for our traditional Winter freefall.


Its started already we have lost 4 out of our last 5 League games We need to get back to what we were doing earlier in the season

hibee_girl
15-12-2012, 05:53 PM
100% agree worst subs ever.
made to get deegan game time .
lost 4 out of last 5 not good

Deegan shouldn't have been anywhere near that team today, he needs some game time before throwing him in at the deep end like that, looked miles off the pace (understandably!)

California-Hibs
15-12-2012, 05:55 PM
Disgraceful subs today from Pat, what the hell was he thinking?! Fair enough if Griffiths possibly had a slight knock to his ankle, but if not that one was mind blowing, but to THEN take of Doyle ASWEL, was plain madness. Trying to see out a game with 30 minutes to go?! Also expecting to overload the midfield by bringing on a player way short of match fitness??

That defence needs serious work. I've said it many times, we need to get rid of Paul Hanlon and sign a more solid centre half. Can't wait around for these occasional good performances he puts in around once every 4 games, his powder-puff defending cost's us time and time again.

No excuses for the rest of them though, Mcpake had a shocker today aswel, but once fit again will prove his worth, Maybury is NOT good enough. Mcgiveren was quiet but had an ok game and is a good player who i'd love to see us able to retain.

I'd like the following clear out in January but doubt it'll happen for various reasons...

First team players OUT - Maybury, Hanlon, Tawio, (Wotherspoon verges on the list from time to time)

Fringe players OUT - Kujabi, Kuqi

cabbageandribs1875
15-12-2012, 05:57 PM
That defence needs serious work. I've said it many times, we need to get rid of Paul Hanlon and sign a more solid centre half. Can't wait around for these occasional good performances he puts in around once every 4 games, his powder-puff defending cost's us time and time again.




better get one of these on :tin hat:

NORTHERNHIBBY
15-12-2012, 05:59 PM
Don't think it is fair to say that Fenlon is tactically inept. He just badly mis-judged the way the game played out. There was nothing wrong with the shape so any subbies should have just been like for like with fresh legs. Bringing on Deegan was a big mistake, and I would expect Pat to hold his hand up for that.

RickyS
15-12-2012, 06:00 PM
better get one of these on :tin hat:


i know the majority like him but i just don't see what the hype is.
there are a couple at Well i wid gladly swap him for

cabbageandribs1875
15-12-2012, 06:01 PM
the players xmas party is tonight , can anyone remember what the score was last year
when they had their party??
to me it looks like they switched off at 2nil and fenlons subs were a joke.


why :confused: anyway, if it was around the same time as this year...we got beat every game :( just like this year really :greengrin nothing changes

sat 10th dec H v 'the' rangers 0-2
sat 17th A v aberdeen 1-0
sat 24th A v dundee utd 3-1

lucky
15-12-2012, 06:01 PM
Pat did cost us today. To go with 5 in midfield just brought them right on top of us. But to go with a young boy upfront on his own was a shocking decision. PF has done well for Hibs but his use of subs has been consistently poor. He needs to get it sorted.

cabbageandribs1875
15-12-2012, 06:05 PM
i know the majority like him but i just don't see what the hype is.
there are a couple at Well i wid gladly swap him for



i don't really like criticising the young laddies(honest), but i do totally agree with what the poster says re: hanlon, i've never been convinced, but he's still got a couple of years left on his last 4-year contract(i think) so i don't think he will be going anywhere soon

Famous5forever
15-12-2012, 06:06 PM
Disgraceful subs today from Pat, what the hell was he thinking?! Fair enough if Griffiths possibly had a slight knock to his ankle, but if not that one was mind blowing, but to THEN take of Doyle ASWEL, was plain madness. Trying to see out a game with 30 minutes to go?! Also expecting to overload the midfield by bringing on a player way short of match fitness??

That defence needs serious work. I've said it many times, we need to get rid of Paul Hanlon and sign a more solid centre half. Can't wait around for these occasional good performances he puts in around once every 4 games, his powder-puff defending cost's us time and time again.

No excuses for the rest of them though, Mcpake had a shocker today aswel, but once fit again will prove his worth, Maybury is NOT good enough. Mcgiveren was quiet but had an ok game and is a good player who i'd love to see us able to retain.

I'd like the following clear out in January but doubt it'll happen for various reasons...

First team players OUT - Maybury, Hanlon, Tawio, (Wotherspoon verges on the list from time to time)

Fringe players OUT - Kujabi, Kuqi

Paddy only signed him in the last transfer window so he is going no where till the end of his contract after which i suspect he will retire.

Frogga
15-12-2012, 06:08 PM
I'd like the following clear out in January but doubt it'll happen for various reasons...

First team players OUT - Maybury, Hanlon, Tawio, (Wotherspoon verges on the list from time to time)

Fringe players OUT - Kujabi, Kuqi

Easy now, this is why Motherwell are consistently better than us...because we keep chopping and changing all the time and they don't! The players we've got are as good as Motherwell's on paper so what we need to do is try and keep a nucleus while changing one or two. If you look at their team then 8 or 9 of their players have played in that team for at least 2 or 3 years, yet if you look at ours then you see exactly the opposite (only Hanlon and Wotherspoon).

Stevie Reid
15-12-2012, 06:11 PM
I make no apologies for posting this
I stayed away last year and was persuaded to return early this season but over the past few weeks the signs have been there that we still have major problems.
Mr Petrie appeals for supporters to turn up in greater numbers and I can see where he is coming from
However he seemingly forgets HFC is part of the entertainment business not a charity to be supported by a few thousand people willing to throw good money away !!!!!!!
Three friends plus myself , all in the same age bracket , were at the game today and we have all agreed that that is that
Given the weather the quality of football on show , allied to the cost , along with our ages, (all in our 80's ), we won't be back .
I attended my first match at ER in 1940 and it seems a nice tidy length of time , 72 years, to have attended my last .
For us nothing has been done over the past four years on a truely constructive basis ( it has all been promises,promises) and we can't see where the club is going in the next year or two

Will be lucky to finish in top six based on what is happening at this time

:rolleyes:

I find this post astonishing, I have to say. Am I disappointed at today's defeat? Of course. Was I entertained? Absolutely. We played more football in the first 3 minutes of today's game than we did in a year under Calderwood, and having been a baw hair away from relegation last season, we are now sitting comfortably in the top 4 in mid December.

We have lots of good players which is amazing given that Fenlon inherited a terrible squad and has only had 2 transfer windows to address the situation. We are a good footballing side that can be very vulnerable at times but are definitely top 6 material.

Today was hugely disappointing but we are a work in progress that is getting better. Sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition and having been out of the game for an hour, Motherwell absolutely destroyed us for the last 30 minutes of the game. They did more when they were on top than we did, it happens. Also bear in mind that they finished comfortably in 3rd last season, whilst we scraped 11th.

The feeling I get from going to ER these days is the best since the Mowbray era, and we had plenty of bad defeats under him too (3-2 at home to Falkirk after being two nil up comes to mind). I'm thoroughly enjoying the SPL this season - it's been a long time since I've said that.

bingo70
15-12-2012, 06:14 PM
Disgraceful subs today from Pat, what the hell was he thinking?! Fair enough if Griffiths possibly had a slight knock to his ankle, but if not that one was mind blowing, but to THEN take of Doyle ASWEL, was plain madness. Trying to see out a game with 30 minutes to go?! Also expecting to overload the midfield by bringing on a player way short of match fitness??

That defence needs serious work. I've said it many times, we need to get rid of Paul Hanlon and sign a more solid centre half. Can't wait around for these occasional good performances he puts in around once every 4 games, his powder-puff defending cost's us time and time again.

No excuses for the rest of them though, Mcpake had a shocker today aswel, but once fit again will prove his worth, Maybury is NOT good enough. Mcgiveren was quiet but had an ok game and is a good player who i'd love to see us able to retain.

I'd like the following clear out in January but doubt it'll happen for various reasons...

First team players OUT - Maybury, Hanlon, Tawio, (Wotherspoon verges on the list from time to time)

Fringe players OUT - Kujabi, Kuqi

Griffiths was having an absolute shocker today, just one of those days where nothing was coming off. Doyle was then absolutely shattered after putting so much into the game. As it turned out subbing them was the wrong thing to do but can you really not understand why he did sub them? Made sense to me at the time.

Maybury had a decent game today, it was on the other wing we were destroyed and Maybury had one unbelievable tackle on the goal line that stopped a definate goal. Taiwo also had a good enough game, won loads of tackles in the middle.

Where we went wrong IMO was a lack of an outlet with any pace that could exploit the space we had when they were committing men forward. You can't argue with Wotherspoons stats this season, the amount of goals and assists he's got for a winger is impressive but i just think we would be a better team if we had Cairney on one wing and a speedster on the other, i do realise that's harsh on DW though.

NOLA
15-12-2012, 06:15 PM
i know the majority like him but i just don't see what the hype is.
there are a couple at Well i wid gladly swap him for
Way I see it if hanlon moved to another spl team would he upgrade their defence? I don't think so, just my opinion.

clerriehibs
15-12-2012, 06:17 PM
U
I find this post astonishing, I have to say. Am I disappointed at today's defeat? Of course. Was I entertained? Absolutely. We played more football in the first 3 minutes of today's game than we did in a year under Calderwood, and having been a baw hair away from relegation last season, we are now sitting comfortably in the top 4 in mid December.

We have lots of good players which is amazing given that Fenlon inherited a terrible squad and has only had 2 transfer windows to address the situation. We are a good footballing side that can be very vulnerable at times but are definitely top 6 material.

Today was hugely disappointing but we are a work in progress that is getting better.

we've been a work in progress simce turnbull was the manager. It's a bloody tiresome phrase.

thebakerboy
15-12-2012, 06:18 PM
Today I thought that for 60mins. we defended all over the park very well with Griffiths and Doyle keeping the defenders busy and not allowing them to play out from the back. At the same time Wotherspoon and Cairney were doing a great job helping the full backs keep the 2 wingers quiet. When he took Griffiths off he put Deegan in the middle and dropped Claros back in front of the defence , all good but then Spooney and Cairney stopped assisting the full backs and Humphries and Murphy took control and and 'Well put on an attacking midfielder and Hey Presto game over. The biggest mistake (IMHO) was stopping the double banking on the wingers. I assume this was the managers decision so he must take the blame. I do think that Deegan should have replaced Taiwo 'cause he took a sore one just before the substitution and didn't look the same for the last 20mins.

bingo70
15-12-2012, 06:18 PM
I make no apologies for posting this
I stayed away last year and was persuaded to return early this season but over the past few weeks the signs have been there that we still have major problems.
Mr Petrie appeals for supporters to turn up in greater numbers and I can see where he is coming from
However he seemingly forgets HFC is part of the entertainment business not a charity to be supported by a few thousand people willing to throw good money away !!!!!!!
Three friends plus myself , all in the same age bracket , were at the game today and we have all agreed that that is that
Given the weather the quality of football on show , allied to the cost , along with our ages, (all in our 80's ), we won't be back .
I attended my first match at ER in 1940 and it seems a nice tidy length of time , 72 years, to have attended my last .
For us nothing has been done over the past four years on a truely constructive basis ( it has all been promises,promises) and we can't see where the club is going in the next year or two

Will be lucky to finish in top six based on what is happening at this time

:rolleyes:

Were you saying the same thing over your half time pie and bovril?

At your age you've served your time so you don't need to justify to anyone if you want to go again but i find it dissapointing what your saying considering the improvement we've seen since last season.

hibs4thecup1988
15-12-2012, 06:20 PM
Get rid of Maybury? He had a stormer today. Stopped attack after attack after attack. Saved us at 2-2(ok didn't matter in the end). Covered the winger perfectly.

Gets singled out because he used to play for them in my view. If it hadn't been for Doyle then he would have been MOTM for me today!

Stevie Reid
15-12-2012, 06:22 PM
U

we've been a work in progress simce turnbull was the manager. It's a bloody tiresome phrase.

Our manager has been in the job for a year and we are miles better now than we were when he took over. Not tiresome to as far as I'm concerned.

AFKA5814_Hibs
15-12-2012, 06:22 PM
Utter garbage today. With Griffiths and Doyle off and young Caldwell up front on his own we had zero chance of adding to our 2 goals and with Well bombing forward it was just a matter of time before they got their goals. Fenlon gambled on us holding out for 2-1 and it backfired big style.

Hibees07
15-12-2012, 06:24 PM
Shocking substitutions & tactics, going defensive never ever works, as soon as he did that there was only ever going to be one outcome. Should have stuck on an extra forward to force Motherwell back.
On another note Caldwell is miles away from being an SPL player, thats now several times I have seen him and if he is the best young striker we have I am seriously worried.

bingo70
15-12-2012, 06:30 PM
Utter garbage today. With Griffiths and Doyle off and young Caldwell up front on his own we had zero chance of adding to our 2 goals and with Well bombing forward it was just a matter of time before they got their goals. Fenlon gambled on us holding out for 2-1 and it backfired big style.

I realise Caldwell had a tough task when he came on so i'm not going to judge him on this week or against hearts but young players have got to make an impact when they get the chance for the last 15 minutes of games. That's what Scott Brown, Riordan, GoC, Kenny Miller plus others did, i keep on hearing how Caldwell and Handling are banging them in for the under 19's but until they start to pose some sort of a threat when they get a chance i'm still to be convinced.

If young players are going to make it in the first team, bringing them on at 18 or 19 years old shouldn't be like playing with a man down and thats what the case is with them IMO. :tin hat:

Golden Bear
15-12-2012, 06:35 PM
PF said on the radio that he had no regrets over his choice of subs.:rolleyes:

Apparently we were being overrun in the midfield so he beefed it up by bringing an extra midfield player on.

I would have thought that the midfield players should have been instructed to play a more positive role rather than the increasingly annoying negative tactics which are employed. The truth is although we have nice tidy midfield players, they create the square root of f all.


And have we EVER won a game playing 4-5-1?

Sorry PF ----------- you made a right backside of this one.

bingo70
15-12-2012, 06:38 PM
PF said on the radio that he had no regrets over his choice of subs.:rolleyes:

Apparently we were being overrun in the midfield so he beefed it up by bringing an extra midfield player on.

I would have thought that the midfield players should have been instructed to play a more positive role rather than the increasingly annoying negative tactics which are employed. The truth is although we have nice tidy midfield players, they create the square root of f all.


And have we EVER won a game playing 4-5-1?

Sorry PF ----------- you made a right backside of this one.

He was right, we were being over run and when that happens going to a 4-5-1 is normally a good tactic.

We beat Motherwell last time we played them 4 nil playing 4-5-1, Doyle played on the wing and Cairney was the attacking midfielder.

jdships
15-12-2012, 06:38 PM
Were you saying the same thing over your half time pie and bovril?

At your age you've served your time so you don't need to justify to anyone if you want to go again but i find it dissapointing what your saying considering the improvement we've seen since last season.

This is not a knee jerk reaction we have not been convinced over the past few weeks as we mostly have ridden our luck
Thank you for your kind remarks - much appreciated
Re improvement this season for us it falls into the 'One swallow doesn't make a summer ' category
If you are honest you may agree that it has been a case of papering over the cracks.

Regardless what happens I will always support HFC even if just from my armchair :flag::top marks

Devilstorment
15-12-2012, 06:40 PM
A few points to add, generally agree with everything here

1- We switched to five across the midfield and actually managed to control less of the midfield!! Deegan should not have been back today (i know we have all been screaming for him to come back!) it was just too early. Packing the midfield seems to adversely impact Claros, i think he struggles to get space and he seems to drop back and start playing negatively. In short a mistake by Fenlon.

2- Doyle and Cairney were in my opinion our best players. Both got the hook. Griffiths was not having the best of games but as our top goal scorer is always a threat and he got the hook. In short a mistake by Fenlon

3- I keep reading on this guys saying give the youngsters a chance. At present i am not seeing enough from Caldwell that makes me think he could break in to the first team (it has me fearing for post January!!) these youngsters arent what you need when you are trying to close out a game that is starting get drift away from you. In short a mistake by Fenlon.

All in all a bad day at the office for Fenlon.... as was Last weekend. If we had been emptied out of the cup by Hearts, I would be starting to panic

We need to offload some of our deadwood in January to be able to bring in some fresh faces. Kuqi and Kujabi i am looking at you!

dp00
15-12-2012, 06:40 PM
A few losses and folk are going mental... We all need to calm down, we are much better than last season and pat is building a new team

jdships
15-12-2012, 06:42 PM
I find this post astonishing, I have to say. Am I disappointed at today's defeat? Of course. Was I entertained? Absolutely. We played more football in the first 3 minutes of today's game than we did in a year under Calderwood, and having been a baw hair away from relegation last season, we are now sitting comfortably in the top 4 in mid December.

We have lots of good players which is amazing given that Fenlon inherited a terrible squad and has only had 2 transfer windows to address the situation. We are a good footballing side that can be very vulnerable at times but are definitely top 6 material.

Today was hugely disappointing but we are a work in progress that is getting better. Sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition and having been out of the game for an hour, Motherwell absolutely destroyed us for the last 30 minutes of the game. They did more when they were on top than we did, it happens. Also bear in mind that they finished comfortably in 3rd last season, whilst we scraped 11th.

The feeling I get from going to ER these days is the best since the Mowbray era, and we had plenty of bad defeats under him too (3-2 at home to Falkirk after being two nil up comes to mind). I'm thoroughly enjoying the SPL this season - it's been a long time since I've said that.



All down to opinions as usual you have yours I have mine :greengrin
Your optimism is to be applauded but even you must admit the past few weeks have shown cause for worry

Hope you are right for all our sakes

:flag:

bingo70
15-12-2012, 06:45 PM
This is not a knee jerk reaction we have not been convinced over the past few weeks as we mostly have ridden our luck
Thank you for your kind remarks - much appreciated
Re improvement this season for us it falls into the 'One swallow doesn't make a summer ' category
If you are honest you may agree that it has been a case of papering over the cracks.

Regardless what happens I will always support HFC even if just from my armchair :flag::top marks


No, if i'm being honest i think our league position probably flattered us but i have at no point thought we were papering over the cracks.

I think we're making steady progress and i still do but i think we've been fortunate in that no team is running away with second (or first for that matter). I do think that under Fenlon we're heading in the right direction and in a few years we'll be the team to beat outside Celtic though so you're picking the wrong time to hang up your scarf but as i said earlier that's your call.

Devilstorment
15-12-2012, 06:46 PM
In terms of Hanlon... I really dont think we would miss him if he was to be moved on. If an offer came in I think the tache should take it (with a wee sell on % just in case) but i wouldnt be trying to offload him.

hibs4thecup1988
15-12-2012, 06:46 PM
Its not about the fact we have lost. Hey I'm flaming delighted we are 4th instead of 2nd bottom. Its the attitude in which we are losing. 2 up 25 to go, lose 3 2 and people are saying that we should be happy? No danger! I'd be worried if we are just accepting it.

We should never have EVER lost that game after being 2 up but typical Hibs sitting in...we did.

Golden Bear
15-12-2012, 06:50 PM
He was right, we were being over run and when that happens going to a 4-5-1 is normally a good tactic.

We beat Motherwell last time we played them 4 nil playing 4-5-1, Doyle played on the wing and Cairney was the attacking midfielder.

Ok you may have answered my first question. However the 4-5-1 formation was a total disaster in the pre-season games, we got humped up at Dundee United, we got humped at Caley and these are just the games that spring to mind.

And by the way, if we are being honest lady luck played a big part in the 0-4 win at Motherwell.

And more on the question of honesty ---------- Motherwell are a better team than us.

cabbageandribs1875
15-12-2012, 06:52 PM
In terms of Hanlon... I really dont think we would miss him if he was to be moved on. If an offer came in I think the tache should take it (with a wee sell on % just in case) but i wouldnt be trying to offload him.



very confusing :confused:

IFONLY
15-12-2012, 06:53 PM
Disgraceful subs today from Pat, what the hell was he thinking?! Fair enough if Griffiths possibly had a slight knock to his ankle, but if not that one was mind blowing, but to THEN take of Doyle ASWEL, was plain madness. Trying to see out a game with 30 minutes to go?! Also expecting to overload the midfield by bringing on a player way short of match fitness??

That defence needs serious work. I've said it many times, we need to get rid of Paul Hanlon and sign a more solid centre half. Can't wait around for these occasional good performances he puts in around once every 4 games, his powder-puff defending cost's us time and time again.

No excuses for the rest of them though, Mcpake had a shocker today aswel, but once fit again will prove his worth, Maybury is NOT good enough. Mcgiveren was quiet but had an ok game and is a good player who i'd love to see us able to retain.

I'd like the following clear out in January but doubt it'll happen for various reasons...

First team players OUT - Maybury, Hanlon, Tawio, (Wotherspoon verges on the list from time to time)

Fringe players OUT - Kujabi, Kuqi

Maybe it is just me but in my opinion I think that Tawio is beginning to show how good a player he is. Its also open season on Hanlon loads of people seem to be pointing the finger at him, again in my opinion he is better than McPake but people arent allowed to slag the captain

hibee_girl
15-12-2012, 06:54 PM
Maybe it is just me but in my opinion I think that Tawio is beginning to show how good a player he is. Its also open season on Hanlon loads of people seem to be pointing the finger at him, again in my opinion he is better than McPake but people arent allowed to slag the captain

:agree: thought today was the best we've seen from him so far

Sir David Gray
15-12-2012, 07:04 PM
The substitutions were terrible, there's no getting away from that, but if eleven professional football players cannot hang on to a two goal lead with half an hour left to play, regardless of who's playing and in which positions, then we've got a problem.

We should have been more than capable of seeing that game out, although when Motherwell equalised with ten minutes left, the fact that he had taken off our two main goalscoring threats meant that we were never likely to score again and there was only going to be one winner.

matty_f
15-12-2012, 07:12 PM
No, if i'm being honest i think our league position probably flattered us but i have at no point thought we were papering over the cracks.

I think we're making steady progress and i still do but i think we've been fortunate in that no team is running away with second (or first for that matter). I do think that under Fenlon we're heading in the right direction and in a few years we'll be the team to beat outside Celtic though so you're picking the wrong time to hang up your scarf but as i said earlier that's your call.

Bingo, you've made some terrific posts on this thread. Agree with you totally.

allezsauzee
15-12-2012, 07:15 PM
3 words....Knee Jerk Reactions!

Bad day for the manager. bad day for the team. I think the biggest problem we had was that we played 20 yards further back after scoring the 2nd goal. We have a defence that has a decent amount of pace playing against a team with 1 striker who has no pace. So why drop back? They posed us no problems in the first half.

Taking Griffiths, Doyle and Cairney were awful decisions.

However we need to get things into perspective. Close to relegation last season..now 4th!

dmc1875
15-12-2012, 07:23 PM
3 words....Knee Jerk Reactions!

Bad day for the manager. bad day for the team. I think the biggest problem we had was that we played 20 yards further back after scoring the 2nd goal. We have a defence that has a decent amount of pace playing against a team with 1 striker who has no pace. So why drop back? They posed us no problems in the first half.

Taking Griffiths, Doyle and Cairney were awful decisions.

However we need to get things into perspective. Close to relegation last season..now 4th!


Maybe... however was it Higdon that killed us? No it was the lighting pace that they have on the flanks with Ojamaa and more so Humphrey. Oh and Murphy playing behind Higdon.

Pace and trickery against a defence that stands off, shows them down the line and was panicking.

allezsauzee
15-12-2012, 07:33 PM
Maybe... however was it Higdon that killed us? No it was the lighting pace that they have on the flanks with Ojamaa and more so Humphrey. Oh and Murphy playing behind Higdon.

Pace and trickery against a defence that stands off, shows them down the line and was panicking.

I think 'Lightning pace' might be over egging it somewhat. I don't think a lack of pace in our defence is a problem at all but we are not well organised at the back. If you allow their midfield to set up camp 30 yards from our goal then they are going to pressurise our defence. and they'll make mistakes. If we played further up the park and occupy them in their own half then that's not going to happen. I'm afraid today was a bit of a catastrophe tactically.

trev the hat
15-12-2012, 07:56 PM
He was right, we were being over run and when that happens going to a 4-5-1 is normally a good tactic.

We beat Motherwell last time we played them 4 nil playing 4-5-1, Doyle played on the wing and Cairney was the attacking midfielder.

But putting on a midfield player who has not kicked a ball in 10 weeks is inexcusable, had he the gonads to play Caldwell from the start (as sparkys barnet is clearly elsewhere), I would be backing him up, maybury unduly slated from geezers behind me when McGovern should have emptied Humphrey @ 1st opportunity. Actually feel sorry for Lewis as he would have sent said Humphrey sky bound @1st shout. Biggest disappointment is PF not knowing when to play kids & the benefit. Was bemused @ dens when Kuki etc get nod b4 handling, Caldwell etc.even today, if he needs it drop Leigh Ffs bottom line is he's a loanee ( much loved) but kids on the books deserve time & not token jestures. Take note PF weakness & uncertainty regarding substitutions is suicide & easily exploited.

Hibercelona
15-12-2012, 08:00 PM
Why can't we just stick with the 4-4-2 making direct substitutions when players get tired? Changing the shape of a winning team is always asking for trouble.

When we stick with the 4-4-2, we score goals and seem to defend reasonably well, but as soon as we change the shape, it causes chaos.

matty_f
15-12-2012, 08:02 PM
Why can't we just stick with the 4-4-2 making direct substitutions when players get tired? Changing the shape of a winning team is always asking for trouble.

When we stick with the 4-4-2, we score goals and seem to defend reasonably well, but as soon as we change the shape, it causes chaos.

:agree: We need to play to our strengths. Going 451 with the players available today did not do that.

bingo70
15-12-2012, 08:08 PM
But putting on a midfield player who has not kicked a ball in 10 weeks is inexcusable, had he the gonads to play Caldwell from the start (as sparkys barnet is clearly elsewhere), I would be backing him up, maybury unduly slated from geezers behind me when McGovern should have emptied Humphrey @ 1st opportunity. Actually feel sorry for Lewis as he would have sent said Humphrey sky bound @1st shout. Biggest disappointment is PF not knowing when to play kids & the benefit. Was bemused @ dens when Kuki etc get nod b4 handling, Caldwell etc.even today, if he needs it drop Leigh Ffs bottom line is he's a loanee ( much loved) but kids on the books deserve time & not token jestures. Take note PF weakness & uncertainty regarding substitutions is suicide & easily exploited.

There's no way Stevenson would have put him in the air, lewis is far too nice that's his problem and why we were over run in midfield all last season.

Caldwell has done nothing in the game time he's had to show he'd be a threat, imo he's looked out of his depth so I don't blame fenlon for not starting the youngsters, no way they should have started in front of Griffiths.

I'm happy to admit fenlon made mistakes today, I think the subs were wrong too but no way was starting with sparky a mistake imo.

blackpoolhibs
15-12-2012, 08:10 PM
Who's fault is it we have 27 points? We will have some blips, christ we had virtually 2 seasons of them over the last couple of years.

Our manager may have got things wrong today, i was not there so cant really say one way or the other.

Things are better, and i'm sure Pat will strengthen us again in January.

Keep the faith.

MWHIBBIES
15-12-2012, 08:26 PM
The subs weren't great but the players were the ones who sat back and conceded the goals. McPake in particular was very poor.

Griffiths was pretty awful so I have no problems with him being subbed. People need to remember where we were last season, we were always going to lose games this year because we are far from the complete team but progress has been made(as shown with the first 55 minutes today) and will continue to be made.

allezsauzee
15-12-2012, 08:27 PM
Who's fault is it we have 27 points? We will have some blips, christ we had virtually 2 seasons of them over the last couple of years.

Our manager may have got things wrong today, i was not there so cant really say one way or the other.

Things are better, and i'm sure Pat will strengthen us again in January.

Keep the faith.

Hear Hear! If we win the sun shines out of PFs erchie, if we get beat he's an idiot. We are doing a hell of a lot better than we were last season and i am sure that the squad will be strengthened in January.

trev the hat
15-12-2012, 08:33 PM
There's no way Stevenson would have put him in the air, lewis is far too nice that's his problem and why we were over run in midfield all last season.

Caldwell has done nothing in the game time he's had to show he'd be a threat, imo he's looked out of his depth so I don't blame fenlon for not starting the youngsters, no way they should have started in front of Griffiths.

I'm happy to admit fenlon made mistakes today, I think the subs were wrong too but no way was starting with sparky a mistake imo.

Disagree, playing Mcgivern @ LB after playing CB for weeks was wrong IMO & it showed, if your going to change your CB then keep your fullbacks as they are. Lewis deserved to be in today's 11.
Caldwells game time has been minimal & in no way has he looked out of his depth, infact quite the opposite, deserving of a start IMO especially with LG heading south unless deals sorted.
And I don't recall saying starting LG was a mistake.
Tactics aside, Deegan should have been nowhere near a strip today, any other player with 10wk out with no game time would have been watching from the stand, for me PF took his eye off the ball while the game was being played. Naive @ best but very disappointing ho witness.

bingo70
15-12-2012, 08:59 PM
Disagree, playing Mcgivern @ LB after playing CB for weeks was wrong IMO & it showed, if your going to change your CB then keep your fullbacks as they are. Lewis deserved to be in today's 11.
Caldwells game time has been minimal & in no way has he looked out of his depth, infact quite the opposite, deserving of a start IMO especially with LG heading south unless deals sorted.
And I don't recall saying starting LG was a mistake.
Tactics aside, Deegan should have been nowhere near a strip today, any other player with 10wk out with no game time would have been watching from the stand, for me PF took his eye off the ball while the game was being played. Naive @ best but very disappointing ho witness.

The Stevenson debate has been done to death but he's just not good enough IMO, i'd hoped the fact we'd had a good start to the season without him would have put to bed the argument about him being a good player but it appears it's not. Mcgivern has played better at LB than Stevenson has done over the last few weeks so bringing him in was the right decision IMO,

I can understand you disagreeing with me about Caldwell, I'm probably being too harsh on him but I just get frustrated with the argument about having to give the youngsters a go because they're young and deserve a chance because they're young. Sorry but they have to earn the right to start games and he's not looked enough of a threat when he's come on IMO, he's worked hard but i don't think he's looked overly dangerous.

Apologies if i picked you up wrong about Griffiths but when you said "had he the gonads to play Caldwell from the start (as sparkys barnet is clearly elsewhere)" that's what i thought you meant.

Agree about Deegan, it was clear when he came on he wasn't up to speed and shouldnt have been playing. In Fenlons defence though i think Deegans debut came after a long lay off so pressumably Fenlon thought he would have got away with getting half an hour out of him today.

Famous5forever
15-12-2012, 09:22 PM
We must trust in Paddy, we need to empty the dross in the January window an bring in a few new players 6 or 7 this is like groudhog day. I Feel we have made progress though and we are going in the right direction.

Baldy Foghorn
15-12-2012, 09:36 PM
PF's subs proved incorrect even although I understand his rationale behind them, he wanted to shore up midfield and see the game out....Never worked though.....

My biggest concern is our sheer inability to defend. 3 shocking goals last week, and 3 shockers today. We defend like schoolboys down Leith Links....Why do our full backs continue top back off, and let their opponent run into our box, surely blocking crosses and getting tackles in is better than backing off, and letting them run riot.....We lose far too many poor goals, and our goals against column is not great reading......

Referee deserves a special mention, for A) Not speaking to Lasley for booting Claros in the face. B) Giving us a free kick, then changing his mind to a drop ball.....C) Him and his "assistant" gave a goal kick instead of a stick on corner, (Spoony got booked for his protests), and they scored straight away.....

trev the hat
15-12-2012, 09:40 PM
The Stevenson debate has been done to death but he's just not good enough IMO, i'd hoped the fact we'd had a good start to the season without him would have put to bed the argument about him being a good player but it appears it's not. Mcgivern has played better at LB than Stevenson has done over the last few weeks so bringing him in was the right decision IMO,

I can understand you disagreeing with me about Caldwell, I'm probably being too harsh on him but I just get frustrated with the argument about having to give the youngsters a go because they're young and deserve a chance because they're young. Sorry but they have to earn the right to start games and he's not looked enough of a threat when he's come on IMO, he's worked hard but i don't think he's looked overly dangerous.

Apologies if i picked you up wrong about Griffiths but when you said "had he the gonads to play Caldwell from the start (as sparkys barnet is clearly elsewhere)" that's what i thought you meant.

Agree about Deegan, it was clear when he came on he wasn't up to speed and shouldnt have been playing. In Fenlons defence though i think Deegans debut came after a long lay off so pressumably Fenlon thought he would have got away with getting half an hour out of him today.

Re Stevenson, if he's good enough to start against the pastry chefs he's more than capable against well. Baw deep hibbee = good in my book.
When was the last game Mgivern actually played LB ?
Lets not get confused, Mgivern is a CB no question.
There's a few certain starters in our 1st 11 who would benefit from seeing said kids taking there berth on the pitch.

davhibby
15-12-2012, 09:50 PM
We were pretty poor after the first 5 minutes when we looked dangerous, broke up the field a few times and got two goals. Then we just got worse and worse. Today was a game that would have suited to have Sproule to come off the bench, but quite a few players didn't turn up today, Griffiths was one of them. We need to work on how to not give away a lead. Hopefully we can find our form again, some big games coming up :flag:

Feed McGraw
15-12-2012, 10:05 PM
i know the majority like him but i just don't see what the hype is.
there are a couple at Well i wid gladly swap him for

He has certainly been the one constant in a poor Hibs defence for a very long time. Maybe you`re right about the majority on here, but most guys I talk to think he`s a bit of an "enigma" in the sense that you feel he could or should be a good player but just somehow falls short. I am actually very surprised that in the last few seasons he has never been dropped or even rested to see how the defence is without him.

Devilstorment
15-12-2012, 11:33 PM
very confusing :confused:


Sorry, a bit of a mess. What i was trying to say was, if someone comes in for him with a decent offer let him go. We dont need to actively try and find a new club for him though.

Macaroon
16-12-2012, 12:25 AM
I think its easy to say in hindsight that he got it wrong. 4-5-1 doesn't seem to work for us as shown in inverness last week. I blame the players as much as pat.

We played 4-5-1 at Fir Park when we drubbed them 4-0

NewHibby
16-12-2012, 12:36 AM
Its not about the fact we have lost. Hey I'm flaming delighted we are 4th instead of 2nd bottom. Its the attitude in which we are losing. 2 up 25 to go, lose 3 2 and people are saying that we should be happy? No danger! I'd be worried if we are just accepting it.

We should never have EVER lost that game after being 2 up but typical Hibs sitting in...we did.

The bleeding heart liberals in the west stand are killing us, I'm sick of their oh well so that's that attitude, sitting their today was reminiscent of a Sunday school picnic....we are pathetic to say the least at creating an atmosphere, and god forbid you try and criticise the running of the club. Grow some balls ya bunch of fairies!!!!

ehf
16-12-2012, 12:39 AM
But putting on a midfield player who has not kicked a ball in 10 weeks is inexcusable, had he the gonads to play Caldwell from the start (as sparkys barnet is clearly elsewhere), I would be backing him up, maybury unduly slated from geezers behind me when McGovern should have emptied Humphrey @ 1st opportunity. Actually feel sorry for Lewis as he would have sent said Humphrey sky bound @1st shout. Biggest disappointment is PF not knowing when to play kids & the benefit. Was bemused @ dens when Kuki etc get nod b4 handling, Caldwell etc.even today, if he needs it drop Leigh Ffs bottom line is he's a loanee ( much loved) but kids on the books deserve time & not token jestures. Take note PF weakness & uncertainty regarding substitutions is suicide & easily exploited.

Reluctant to criticise youngters but Caldwell is clearly well short of being able to perform at this level.

davym7062
16-12-2012, 01:51 AM
if mcgivern cuts out the cross for their 1st goal we win the game, he got ripped today end of

lord bunberry
16-12-2012, 02:24 AM
Who's fault is it we have 27 points? We will have some blips, christ we had virtually 2 seasons of them over the last couple of years.

Our manager may have got things wrong today, i was not there so cant really say one way or the other.

Things are better, and i'm sure Pat will strengthen us again in January.

Keep the faith.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we have not improved massively on last season but we got it spectacularly wrong today and the manager was the main reason for that. you had to see it to believe it how much our substitutions had a negative effect on the game

marinello59
16-12-2012, 07:20 AM
The bleeding heart liberals in the west stand are killing us, I'm sick of their oh well so that's that attitude, sitting their today was reminiscent of a Sunday school picnic....we are pathetic to say the least at creating an atmosphere, and god forbid you try and criticise the running of the club. Grow some balls ya bunch of fairies!!!!

.:faf:
There we have it. Could everybody in the West stand bring their exploding heads to the next home match. A mass angry rant should ensure victory.

blackpoolhibs
16-12-2012, 08:27 AM
I don't think anyone is arguing that we have not improved massively on last season but we got it spectacularly wrong today and the manager was the main reason for that. you had to see it to believe it how much our substitutions had a negative effect on the game

To be fair, i cant argue with that i was not at the game. What i can say though, without any doubt, is we have more than our fair share of supporters who cant wait to get stuck into the manager or the team when we lose a game.

I can understand that when we are sheite and languishing at the wrong end of the table, but in similar circumstances under Hughes, we had an element of the support who it seemed to me at the time couldn't wait to stick the knife in.

I hope i am not witnessing the same now with Pat Fenlon?

Lucius Apuleius
16-12-2012, 08:43 AM
The way I read the match thread, Leigh was not exactly setting the heather on fire so was taken off. Doyle then appeared to be tiring so he was taken off. PF's decision was to bolster the midfield and try and see out the game. It failed, fair enough, but anyone want to tell me how many times we have threads on here saying we should have done just that instead of chasing more goals?

Kris1875
16-12-2012, 08:51 AM
The way I saw the game was that the first half was pretty scrappy to the point where I didn't think either team looked like scoring , but as has happened a few times at ER this season we've managed to go in 1-0 up . The 2nd half to me was all Motherwell but we managed to score again but as seems to be the norm against them they got back in it . Even after we went 2 up the players to me sat back deeper and deeper to the point even pat was screaming at them to push up . At the time I think he was right to get another body in midfield as they where seeing far to much of the ball there and totally dictating the play I think pats only mistake was bringing on deegs instead of possibly sproule but I understand his decision . To summarise we got what we deserved unfortunately though we maybe just have to put our hands up and say Motherwell wanted it more today . Probably the worst I've seen us this year at ER though still not as bad as last year though I think it's obvious there's still massive room for improvement but hopefully with time and a few more players that will come . GGTTH

NORTHERNHIBBY
16-12-2012, 09:11 AM
I am sure that a lot of folk are using this thread to let off steam, and sometimes a wee argy-bargy is good for you. No real question I think that there has been geat strides from last season, but even if we were top of the league, self-inflicted defeats still sting harder and I would be more worried if we had just passed it off with a ho-hum. In terms of who should have done what, I am far from a qualified football person but even I could see us fall out of the game, and as soon as Well scored, I said I would take a draw. If I can see that, I think that the people that are qualified and actually get paid to do the job should see it to.

Alex Trager
16-12-2012, 09:18 AM
Does anyone know why we've been doing this since pitodrie? 'This' is completely and utterly not playing to our strengths? Bypassing the midfield with a useless lump up the park to two strikers that are not going to win the ball? Two strikers that need the ball to feet? The midfield offer no creativity, except cairney, wotherspoon yesterday was marking mayburys man, not his own one. Leaving him free to roam.
I just do not understand why Hibs continue to hit the ball high when it simply is not working.
Substitutes were god awful as well

Golden Bear
16-12-2012, 09:33 AM
Does anyone know why we've been doing this since pitodrie? 'This' is completely and utterly not playing to our strengths? Bypassing the midfield with a useless lump up the park to two strikers that are not going to win the ball? Two strikers that need the ball to feet? The midfield offer no creativity, except cairney, wotherspoon yesterday was marking mayburys man, not his own one. Leaving him free to roam.
I just do not understand why Hibs continue to hit the ball high when it simply is not working.
Substitutes were god awful as well

:agree:

I totally agree with that. I've already said that although our midfield are neat and tidy players , in reality they create absolutely zero. Even Paul Cairney seems to have lost a bit of confidence recently as he is no longer trying to dribble his way past opponents but instead has adopted the square ball/back pass attitude which has been all too prevalent in the team for a few years now.

Maybe someone should inform our midfield players (and maybe PF?) that the rules permit them to enter the opposition penalty box now and again.

Bostonhibby
16-12-2012, 09:39 AM
The bleeding heart liberals in the west stand are killing us, I'm sick of their oh well so that's that attitude, sitting their today was reminiscent of a Sunday school picnic....we are pathetic to say the least at creating an atmosphere, and god forbid you try and criticise the running of the club. Grow some balls ya bunch of fairies!!!!

Is there a guide somewhere, maybe one you have contributed to, that gives the rest of us some sort of steer on the best way to provide support for the club / create an atmosphere? Hopefully it will take account of different ages, personal styles and preferences as well as physical ability to jump about a bit:wink:.

As for the point you are making re criticising the club, I am not sure how to interpret it - are you saying that the entire west stand are some form of thought police who seek out and silence all the clubs critics? - If so share with us how they do it. I used to sit there and whilst I did not see anyone with their top off for the entire game or doing the bounce too often there has always been plenty criticism in evidence.

AlbertK86
16-12-2012, 09:40 AM
Yep it backfired for Pat with the sunbird but too many moaning about Deegan

Everybody has been clamouring for his return and after last weeks doing Pat told us all we needed leaders and probably felt that as Deegan is a leader we needed bolstered after last week.

Didnae hear anybody complaining before the game that he was included.

It didn't work out but that ain't just down to PF

Defence is shocking at moment and for weeks Maybury has been left exposed by Spoony

Too many people on here are blind re Hanlon as he came thro our system.

He is a total liability... Always likely to concede due to his powderpuff challenges and misjudged timing for headers

Golden Bear
16-12-2012, 09:56 AM
The bleeding heart liberals in the west stand are killing us, I'm sick of their oh well so that's that attitude, sitting their today was reminiscent of a Sunday school picnic....we are pathetic to say the least at creating an atmosphere, and god forbid you try and criticise the running of the club. Grow some balls ya bunch of fairies!!!!

Aye good one. :na na:

And while we're at it, THEIR drum was a lot louder than OUR drum yesterday. It's a bloody disgrace I tell ye. Questions should be asked in parliament.

hibs0666
16-12-2012, 10:17 AM
The way I read the match thread, Leigh was not exactly setting the heather on fire so was taken off. Doyle then appeared to be tiring so he was taken off. PF's decision was to bolster the midfield and try and see out the game. It failed, fair enough, but anyone want to tell me how many times we have threads on here saying we should have done just that instead of chasing more goals?

That's exactly what happened and to blame the manager is pretty laughable to be honest.

Greendub
16-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Pat has defended taking Doyle and griffiths off

You been on the gear Pat?

Malthibby
16-12-2012, 11:34 AM
Their wingers had our fullbacks on toast in the second half. I really like McGivern but Humphries shredded
him yesterday & that's going to cost goals, so we probably should have doubled up on him.
We need to have a reaction over the next couple of games, we were far too brittle once they got their first
but it's too early to resort to D&G.
I'm a JPG man myself anyway.
GG

Alex Trager
16-12-2012, 11:36 AM
Yep it backfired for Pat with the sunbird but too many moaning about Deegan

Everybody has been clamouring for his return and after last weeks doing Pat told us all we needed leaders and probably felt that as Deegan is a leader we needed bolstered after last week.

Didnae hear anybody complaining before the game that he was included.

It didn't work out but that ain't just down to PF

Defence is shocking at moment and for weeks Maybury has been left exposed by Spoony

Too many people on here are blind re Hanlon as he came thro our system.

He is a total liability... Always likely to concede due to his powderpuff challenges and misjudged timing for headers

You've got to be having a laugh? Wotherspoon is leaving Maybury exposed? Maybury keeps tucking in and acting as of he's a centre half leaving wotherspoon to have to fall short and mark mayburys man, in turn causing one of the cms to have to mark spoonys man.
Wotherspoon seems to be lacking in going forward but if you watch it's cause Maybury is so deep that he can't push forward.
Clancy Is required ASAP. As well as keeping the ball on the deck

Hibbyradge
16-12-2012, 11:41 AM
Pat has defended taking Doyle and griffiths off

You been on the gear Pat?

I don't think it was the substitutions that caused the collapse. It was the team talk at half time.

Griffiths used to be a buzz bomb, but he's clearly not fit at the moment and offered us nothing. I wasn't surprised he was taken off.

But even still, we looked decent and had created a load of good chances in the first half.

The change in attitude and tactics after the break is to blame for our defeat, imo.

We stopped passing the ball and we didn't even try to keep possession.

Our second goal came against the run of play and, while it was a fine goal, it wasn't deserved at the time.

I understand the tactic of trying to bring a team on to you in order to open them up, but just as happened against Hearts, we succeeded in the first part, but didn't even attempt the second.

Hibbyradge
16-12-2012, 11:47 AM
The way I read the match thread, Leigh was not exactly setting the heather on fire so was taken off. Doyle then appeared to be tiring so he was taken off. PF's decision was to bolster the midfield and try and see out the game. It failed, fair enough, but anyone want to tell me how many times we have threads on here saying we should have done just that instead of chasing more goals?


That's exactly what happened and to blame the manager is pretty laughable to be honest.

Griffiths was nowhere near his early season form. He looks like he's carrying an injury and isn't fit.

However, we controlled the game in the first half and created 8 good chances.

We changed tactics completely in the second half, we stopped passing the ball, and chose to lump every clearance as far up the pitch as possible instead.

Miraculously, we created one break away chance and scored it. 2 - 0.

Inevitably, Motherwell attacked us wave after wave, and as soon as we conceded the first, everyone saw what was going to be the inevitable result.

Why the collective change in attitude and tactics?

Tyler Durden
16-12-2012, 11:48 AM
The defeat was absolutely Fenlons fault and anything other than 100% admission of that would be senseless.

However I'm pretty shocked in this thread to read 7 or 8 people slagging off Caldwell! Can someone explain to me where the boy went wrong? PF left him totally adrift and he could do little with the punts down the line and no support.

Golden Bear
16-12-2012, 11:52 AM
The defeat was absolutely Fenlons fault and anything other than 100% admission of that would be senseless.

However I'm pretty shocked in this thread to read 7 or 8 people slagging off Caldwell! Can someone explain to me where the boy went wrong? PF left him totally adrift and he could do little with the punts down the line and no support.

:agree:

Before anyone can have an informative opinion on the guy we need to see him from the start and over a period of 3 to 4 games. How you can judge anyone on the basis of a few brief appearances from the bench is beyond me.

Bobo
16-12-2012, 12:02 PM
That's exactly what happened and to blame the manager is pretty laughable to be honest.

IMO there is only one person to take the blame for yesterdays' result and that's Pat Fenlon. He has to realise that playing a 4-5-1 formation is suicide, especially with the frailties of our defence ... is it really a surprise to anyone that we've shipped so many goals?

It's not for the first time that Fenlon's allowed his side to concede the majority of possession to the opposition and surrendered the game and the points. Setting a team out to play 4-5-1 when away from home is bad enough without it repeatedly happening at Easter Road as well.

While I appreciate that Pat has a huge job to do and that his team/squad is currently a work in progress ... results such as Dundee Utd 0-3, QOS 0-2, Ross County 2-3, Dundee 1-3, Inverness 0-3 and yesterday against Motherwell 2-3 were avoidable and are totally unacceptable. I'm not saying we should have won all those games but the manner and margin of each defeat should have been better, we are still too soft a touch.

Our last sequence of results has been very poor and any confidence and momentum that had earlier been growing has been seriously dented because of it. We've had players missing through injury but so has every other club so there can be no excuses. The buck stops with Pat Fenlon and he's lost his way of late, hopefully he get us back on track again before too long.

snooky
16-12-2012, 12:34 PM
Does anyone know why we've been doing this since pitodrie? 'This' is completely and utterly not playing to our strengths? Bypassing the midfield with a useless lump up the park to two strikers that are not going to win the ball? Two strikers that need the ball to feet? The midfield offer no creativity, except cairney, wotherspoon yesterday was marking mayburys man, not his own one. Leaving him free to roam.
I just do not understand why Hibs continue to hit the ball high when it simply is not working.
Substitutes were god awful as well

Exactamondo. Nobody takes a short pass from the keeper, building from the back (as we did in the KT & Broony days). Hoofball up to the Lilliputians is plain stupidity but that's what we do. Don't care what the score is, playing with one forward in a home game is as bad as Potter's notorious 'no forwards' tactic.

The ref and linesmen deserve a mention. They were real Cocos yesterday and got many decisions wrong - both ways although we took the brunt of it.

I also agree with earlier posts re Hanlon. He just doesn't cut it IMO.
Does he have a balance problem? He seems to fall over a blade of grass regularly and at critical times.

PF 100% responsible for defeat yesterday.

Doyle MOM and Cairney a close second.

hibs0666
16-12-2012, 12:42 PM
Pat has defended taking Doyle and griffiths off

You been on the gear Pat?

Griffiths was awful and Doyle was knackered. Hibs were being over-run before the substitutions and do I can't see the big deal.

IFONLY
16-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Exactamondo. Nobody takes a short pass from the keeper, building from the back (as we did in the KT & Broony days). Hoofball up to the Lilliputians is plain stupidity but that's what we do. Don't care what the score is, playing with one forward in a home game is as bad as Potter's notorious 'no forwards' tactic.

The ref and linesmen deserve a mention. They were real Cocos yesterday and got many decisions wrong - both ways although we took the brunt of it.

I also agree with earlier posts re Hanlon. He just doesn't cut it IMO.
Does he have a balance problem? He seems to fall over a blade of grass regularly and at critical times.

PF 100% responsible for defeat yesterday.

Doyle MOM and Cairney a close second.

I must have been at a different game I thought he was very poor, lost the ball on a number of ocasions. Thought he was going to be subbed when Deegan came on.

Golden Bear
16-12-2012, 01:12 PM
Griffiths was awful and Doyle was knackered. Hibs were being over-run before the substitutions and do I can't see the big deal.

I don't buy that at all. He didn't look knackered to me and in my eyes it was bad man management by PF to take off a player who was still full of running and desperate for his hat trick. I also fail to understand how a professional athlete of his age could possibly be "knackered" - especially when the ball scarcely reached him after he scored his second goal.

Scouse Hibee
16-12-2012, 01:20 PM
The bleeding heart liberals in the west stand are killing us, I'm sick of their oh well so that's that attitude, sitting their today was reminiscent of a Sunday school picnic....we are pathetic to say the least at creating an atmosphere, and god forbid you try and criticise the running of the club. Grow some balls ya bunch of fairies!!!!


Just out of interest, did you pass this message to those around you in the West yesterday or did you just grow a pair today for use on an internet forum.

Alex Trager
16-12-2012, 01:31 PM
Griffiths was awful and Doyle was knackered. Hibs were being over-run before the substitutions and do I can't see the big deal.

Leigh deserved to be hooked but Eoin I have to say was a ridiculous decision. If anyone was blowing out their hoop it was David wotherspoon I'd say.
Hibs for far too long have been playing at home as if they are the away team. It's shocking, they sit far too deep inviting pressure. I can't understand it

hibs4thecup1988
16-12-2012, 01:57 PM
I understand people saying "Look where we are now and we were 2nd bottom this time last year etc etc"

That is not the point! The point is that if we had held onto a 2 goal lead vs Inverness, a 2 goal lead against Motherwell we would be sitting 2nd(and a few points clear btw!) That is before we even go onto the games against Aberdeen at ER when we pummeled them and just couldn't get the break through.

I am delighted it would seem we are in no danger of what we went through last year, but we need that bit more heart and passion. If we can get a few players in in January then I would feel confident that we will be top 6. If not...then it will be a struggle 2nd part of the season

JimBHibees
16-12-2012, 02:26 PM
Bottom line is whether you agree with the substitutions or not the fact is we lost 3 goals in 30 mins to a team who barely had a shot on goal the hour before. The first 2 goals were conceded with the scorer completely unmarked right in front of goal, who was meant to be marking him on both occasions. First goal Humphrey gets wide and plays it across goal and there is only one guy that could score and spectacularly we manage to not pick him up at all.

Quite unforgivable defending IMO and while I didnt agree with the subs to blame the manager for everything that happened is complete nonsense. Motherwell are a decent SPL side they are not Barca and to me at 2-1 we were if we had played as we were as likely to catch them on the break than them scoring again. To take off our only players capable of scoring was staggering to me however lets not absolve players of doing things that average pub players would be expected to do e.g pick up and stay with your man.

21.05.2016
16-12-2012, 03:09 PM
Fenlons substitution decisions were absolutly unreal and cost us the game. Negative attitude to have and just let motherwell come at us. Dreadful.

I am a fan of Fenlon but todays decisions were shocking.

Sudds_1
16-12-2012, 06:13 PM
I understand people saying "Look where we are now and we were 2nd bottom this time last year etc etc"

That is not the point! The point is that if we had held onto a 2 goal lead vs Inverness, a 2 goal lead against Motherwell we would be sitting 2nd(and a few points clear btw!) That is before we even go onto the games against Aberdeen at ER when we pummeled them and just couldn't get the break through.

I am delighted it would seem we are in no danger of what we went through last year, but we need that bit more heart and passion. If we can get a few players in in January then I would feel confident that we will be top 6. If not...then it will be a struggle 2nd part of the season

To be fair, I dont think many level heads on here would disagree with you........

Yes: its a sore defeat and one that should not have happened. But this happens to other teams - look at East Fife yesterday. Even Celtc get turned over when they least expect it. Its called football! :wink:

Yes: PF and the players should take a good look at themselves and put it right

Yes: we could have consolidate a wee bit in second placew with those 3 points. But plenty more opportunities for that given the way this league is going this year.

NO: This does not signal the beginning of the end (as some are trying to make out). We ARE improved. We ARE going in the right direction. It WILL take time.


I happen to think if we finish high top six, and by that I mean 3/4, that will be a significant improvement over the last few seasons. Fenlon is learning too. And I think he does retain that learning from his mistakes.

Rant over...........sorry! :cb

lord bunberry
16-12-2012, 06:17 PM
Griffiths was awful and Doyle was knackered. Hibs were being over-run before the substitutions and do I can't see the big deal.

I don't think we were being over run before the substitutions i thought motherwell were on top but we still looked dangerous. After griffiths went off we were finished as an attacking force and the fact he then took Doyle off only made things worse. Imo fenlon has done a great job this season and apart from qos in the cup he has got most things spot on but today was a bad day for him but I've no doubt he will learn from it and keep us up the top end of the table

clerriehibs
16-12-2012, 06:19 PM
3 words....Knee Jerk Reactions!

Bad day for the manager. bad day for the team. I think the biggest problem we had was that we played 20 yards further back after scoring the 2nd goal. We have a defence that has a decent amount of pace playing against a team with 1 striker who has no pace. So why drop back? They posed us no problems in the first half.

Taking Griffiths, Doyle and Cairney were awful decisions.

However we need to get things into perspective. Close to relegation last season..now 4th!

Six words ... Lost four out of last five.

Sudds_1
16-12-2012, 06:33 PM
Six words ... Lost four out of last five.

and 'well went 4 losses on the trot before this wee run they're on.

Point is.......we're still in touch, high top six, and some failures to get right. A wee run of 2 or 3 ganes sees us well in the hunt. ICT, 'well, and Sheep to name but 3 are just as liable to lose in similar circumstances.

All I wanted this year was evidence that we were improving, and on the right track. I didn't expect overnight miracles........nor did many others if they're honest with themselves.

I see improvement. I see the right attitude (mainly) Now it has to be given time to develop.

Wotherspiniesta
16-12-2012, 06:36 PM
Six words ... Lost four out of last five.

Still, we won the other game.

Oh and better still, we beat Hearts :jmcp:

blackpoolhibs
16-12-2012, 06:38 PM
and 'well went 4 losses on the trot before this wee run they're on.

Point is.......we're still in touch, high top six, and some failures to get right. A wee run of 2 or 3 ganes sees us well in the hunt. ICT, 'well, and Sheep to name but 3 are just as liable to lose in similar circumstances.

All I wanted this year was evidence that we were improving, and on the right track. I didn't expect overnight miracles........nor did many others if they're honest with themselves.

I see improvement. I see the right attitude (mainly) Now it has to be given time to develop.

Nail hit firmly on head. :top marks

hibs0666
16-12-2012, 06:53 PM
Six words ... Lost four out of last five.

What's your point?

fatbloke
16-12-2012, 07:49 PM
IMO I think that McGivern should take much of the blame. He was never within 25 yards of the winger who ripped us a new ar5eh0le in the second half. Treated the guy like he had a contagious didease. Poor poor defending - IMO.

Mikey
16-12-2012, 08:24 PM
IMO I think that McGivern should take much of the blame. He was never within 25 yards of the winger who ripped us a new ar5eh0le in the second half. Treated the guy like he had a contagious didease. Poor poor defending - IMO.

If you want people to take your comments seriously don't you think it would be a good idea to talk some sense?

clerriehibs
16-12-2012, 10:02 PM
What's your point?


The point? A fairly obvious response to someone suggesting there was a knee jerk reaction going on to losing a game.

PatHead
16-12-2012, 11:24 PM
I thought Hibs were okay for the first hour yesterday and Motherwell were by far the better team in the last half hour. We shouldn't have lost the game. We got far too deep and I thought both McGivern and Maybury were to blame for the goals we lost as they let the Motherwell wingers run at them. I can see why some posters are defending Maybury as he did have a couple of good blocks but his job as a fullback is to stop the crosses coming in and he didn't, he plays far too narrow. The same could be said about other games this season and I do feel he is a weak link other teams exploit particlarly in the latter part of games when his legs are going. He is a squad player, no more and no less. (It has nothing to do with him playing for Hearts in the dim and distant past)

McGivern was guilty of the same yesterday but we have to remember whilst he is an international he is only a young lad and will learn.

Worrying thing is I can't see how we can improve things just now as we have too many players that play a similar way in central midfield. Is it worth moving Cairney or Spoony more central to support the front pair? We also desperately need more pace about the team.

JohnStephens91
17-12-2012, 04:01 AM
Certain posters only ever crawl out of the woodwork when we've been beaten and slate everything to do with the club. Petrie is a clown, Fenlon is clueless, Maybury is honking, Taiwo is naff, then disappear when we win. Facts are you probably don't have a clue as you put a negative spin on everything. I'm surprised nobody has gone 'Doyle only scored 2, he should have had a hat-trick' such is the sense most of you make when you do actually post.

Anyway for what it is worth I was disappointed with yesterday as I'm sure everyone was, to be 2 goals up and to lose at home like that is bad and shouldn't be happening, unfortunately it did. It reminded me a bit of the Scottish Cup semi-final vs Dundee United where we were 1-0 up but ended up losing because of the substitutions. I can see what the plan was but it failed, and it failed pretty abysmally as the scoreline suggests, but instead of overreacting we have merely entered a poor run of form like every other team has been in, or will enter at some stage of the season. I am confident that Fenlon is the man to continue to develop Hibs further and into a side that regularly competes but after the mess of the last few seasons it's not going to happen overnight, he has had one transfer window and has made a lot of good signings on a permanent basis and for a majority of games this season they have been hard to beat.

I don't get the poor football chat either, I've sat and watched Hibs at every game this season and yes we do have a tendency to kick the ball long from goal kicks but we do generally try and pass the ball about on the deck, the 2-2 draw with Inverness is a prime example of that in the first-half as we were playing some excellent football that day and again against Dundee at Easter Road. I think everyone who is slating the team for a poor run of form needs to remember how bad it was under Calderwood and how much the side has changed before making negative comments. Fenlon is a good manager and he does make mistakes just like every other manager does, he speaks very honestly and openly about the team, the games and himself for the supporters and engages with us and the team do so likewise. He is passionate about the club and wants to succeed and he will succeed I'm sure and hopefully be here for a long time as he has done a power of good at the club and the season is going the way we want it to be going: with massive improvements on last year.

offshorehibby
17-12-2012, 09:46 AM
To be fair, I dont think many level heads on here would disagree with you........

Yes: its a sore defeat and one that should not have happened. But this happens to other teams - look at East Fife yesterday. Even Celtc get turned over when they least expect it. Its called football! :wink:

Yes: PF and the players should take a good look at themselves and put it right

Yes: we could have consolidate a wee bit in second placew with those 3 points. But plenty more opportunities for that given the way this league is going this year.

NO: This does not signal the beginning of the end (as some are trying to make out). We ARE improved. We ARE going in the right direction. It WILL take time.


I happen to think if we finish high top six, and by that I mean 3/4, that will be a significant improvement over the last few seasons. Fenlon is learning too. And I think he does retain that learning from his mistakes.

Rant over...........sorry! :cb

To be honest this was all i wanted at the start of the season and still do. People see a few wins under our belts and think great, we're back - We're not.
We are heading in the right direction and things wont change overnight. PF still needs 3 or 4 transfer window to get the players in place he needs to do the job.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 09:56 AM
You've got to be having a laugh? Wotherspoon is leaving Maybury exposed? Maybury keeps tucking in and acting as of he's a centre half leaving wotherspoon to have to fall short and mark mayburys man, in turn causing one of the cms to have to mark spoonys man.
Wotherspoon seems to be lacking in going forward but if you watch it's cause Maybury is so deep that he can't push forward.
Clancy Is required ASAP. As well as keeping the ball on the deck

Except of course the wide midfielder is Spoony's man. Spoony has done well this season however he doesnt offer the best protection to a full back on many occasions. The full backs will be told to tuck in nearer the centre halfs then come across when the wide man gets the ball.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 09:58 AM
To be honest this was all i wanted at the start of the season and still do. People see a few wins under our belts and think great, we're back - We're not.
We are heading in the right direction and things wont change overnight. PF still needs 3 or 4 transfer window to get the players in place he needs to do the job.


How can Butcher, on a lot less of a transfer budget put together a side that will definitely be top 6 this season but we struggle?

Inverness is practically a new team from last year.

People moan about the lack of fans turning up at Easter Road but what do you expect when a club our size constantly struggles to make the top half of the league?

I still don't see a long term plan by Fenlon for the club. Looking at it our 3 best players this season's contacts run out in a couple of weeks. Are we just going to keep making it up as we go along or is there actually going to be a plan for 3 or 4 more windows?

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 10:02 AM
Certain posters only ever crawl out of the woodwork when we've been beaten and slate everything to do with the club. Petrie is a clown, Fenlon is clueless, Maybury is honking, Taiwo is naff, then disappear when we win. Facts are you probably don't have a clue as you put a negative spin on everything. I'm surprised nobody has gone 'Doyle only scored 2, he should have had a hat-trick' such is the sense most of you make when you do actually post.

Anyway for what it is worth I was disappointed with yesterday as I'm sure everyone was, to be 2 goals up and to lose at home like that is bad and shouldn't be happening, unfortunately it did. It reminded me a bit of the Scottish Cup semi-final vs Dundee United where we were 1-0 up but ended up losing because of the substitutions. I can see what the plan was but it failed, and it failed pretty abysmally as the scoreline suggests, but instead of overreacting we have merely entered a poor run of form like every other team has been in, or will enter at some stage of the season. I am confident that Fenlon is the man to continue to develop Hibs further and into a side that regularly competes but after the mess of the last few seasons it's not going to happen overnight, he has had one transfer window and has made a lot of good signings on a permanent basis and for a majority of games this season they have been hard to beat.

I don't get the poor football chat either, I've sat and watched Hibs at every game this season and yes we do have a tendency to kick the ball long from goal kicks but we do generally try and pass the ball about on the deck, the 2-2 draw with Inverness is a prime example of that in the first-half as we were playing some excellent football that day and again against Dundee at Easter Road. I think everyone who is slating the team for a poor run of form needs to remember how bad it was under Calderwood and how much the side has changed before making negative comments. Fenlon is a good manager and he does make mistakes just like every other manager does, he speaks very honestly and openly about the team, the games and himself for the supporters and engages with us and the team do so likewise. He is passionate about the club and wants to succeed and he will succeed I'm sure and hopefully be here for a long time as he has done a power of good at the club and the season is going the way we want it to be going: with massive improvements on last year.

Totally agree with that some of the football from midfield to front has been excellent this season, the goals against Dundee Utd especially the first one was a phenomenal bit of football. We do go long on occasion when there is no short option however I think we do ok on that front.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 10:04 AM
How can Butcher, on a lot less of a transfer budget put together a side that will definitely be top 6 this season but we struggle?

Inverness is practically a new team from last year.

People moan about the lack of fans turning up at Easter Road but what do you expect when a club our size constantly struggles to make the top half of the league?

I still don't see a long term plan by Fenlon for the club. Looking at it our 3 best players this season's contacts run out in a couple of weeks. Are we just going to keep making it up as we go along or is there actually going to be a plan for 3 or 4 more windows?

How long has Butcher been ICT manager, ICT were at the bottom end of the table last season also. No one outside Celtc is a definite top 6 this season. Results have shown all can take points off each other.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 10:06 AM
How long has Butcher been ICT manager, ICT were at the bottom end of the table last season also. No one outside Celtc is a definite top 6 this season. Results have shown all can take points off each other.

Whats how long he's been manager got to do with it? He's brought in a whole new side on a fraction of Pat's budget and is out performing him. ICT also finished ahead of us 2 years on the trot.

Outside Celtic Inverness, Motherwell and Aberdeen are shoe in's.

PatHead
17-12-2012, 10:10 AM
Except of course the wide midfielder is Spoony's man. Spoony has done well this season however he doesnt offer the best protection to a full back on many occasions. The full backs will be told to tuck in nearer the centre halfs then come across when the wide man gets the ball.

I asked PF about that after the Cup win. He agreed the full backs have a tendancy to sit in too tight though they are meant to come in a bit. I assume a lot of this is down to Maybury's lack of pace. Re comments on Spoony he will more than likely be tasked with covering an attacking full back than doubling up on many of the winger/wide midfielders on show in the SPL surely?

CropleyWasGod
17-12-2012, 10:12 AM
Whats how long he's been manager got to do with it? He's brought in a whole new side on a fraction of Pat's budget and is out performing him. ICT also finished ahead of us 2 years on the trot.

Outside Celtic Inverness, Motherwell and Aberdeen are shoe in's.

Quite a lot, I would suggest.

Experience is very important. For me, PF showed a lack of it on Saturday. If he learns from it, fine. I am sure that Butcher has learned a lot from his own mistakes, including the horrible experience he had in Australia.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 10:14 AM
Whats how long he's been manager got to do with it? He's brought in a whole new side on a fraction of Pat's budget and is out performing him. ICT also finished ahead of us 2 years on the trot.

Outside Celtic Inverness, Motherwell and Aberdeen are shoe in's.

How long has he been manager has loads to do with it. He works with the players on the training field, he plans who to get rid of and who to bring in over a longer period. ICT have done well however lets not overrate them they are probably 2 or 3 injuries/suspensions from a form dip. They got horsed by Motherwell at home not so long ago and were lucky to beat Ross in the cup.

PF has only been in charge for a year and started off having to get rid of the biggest lot of dross in history and also keep us up. We are improving this season however we have a small squad and we are up and down which is to be expected. I have faith that PF can continue to improve us slowly and surely. Lets see where we are after the transfer window is done and our injured players are back up to speed.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 10:15 AM
Quite a lot, I would suggest.

Experience is very important. For me, PF showed a lack of it on Saturday. If he learns from it, fine. I am sure that Butcher has learned a lot from his own mistakes, including the horrible experience he had in Australia.

and Sunderland and Coventry. Agree with your first point.

Part/Time Supporter
17-12-2012, 10:19 AM
Whats how long he's been manager got to do with it? He's brought in a whole new side on a fraction of Pat's budget and is out performing him. ICT also finished ahead of us 2 years on the trot.

Outside Celtic Inverness, Motherwell and Aberdeen are shoe in's.

1. Butcher hasn't signed a "whole new team" this season - all of their front four players (by far the best part of their team) were there last season.

2. ICT finishing above Hibs in the last two seasons is hardly anything to be boasting about.

3. If Aberdeen are such racing certainties to be in the top six and Hibs are dreadfully under-performing, why are Hibs above Aberdeen in the league?

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 10:22 AM
How long has he been manager has loads to do with it. He works with the players on the training field, he plans who to get rid of and who to bring in over a longer period. ICT have done well however lets not overrate them they are probably 2 or 3 injuries/suspensions from a form dip. They got horsed by Motherwell at home not so long ago and were lucky to beat Ross in the cup.

PF has only been in charge for a year and started off having to get rid of the biggest lot of dross in history and also keep us up. We are improving this season however we have a small squad and we are up and down which is to be expected. I have faith that PF can continue to improve us slowly and surely. Lets see where we are after the transfer window is done and our injured players are back up to speed.


It's not got much to do with it if he's basically got a brand new side from last season.I agree if it was a settled side for a few seasons of course but that isn't the case. We got horsed at home off Motherwell also and where equally as lucky to beat Hearts in the cup. We also got thumped off Inverness, Ross County and Dundee recently.

I hope after the transfer window we have much more of a settled squad. We haven't at the moment with loan signings and players contract's ending in the summer.

And credit to Fenlon, you could argue that with the budget and the facilites available to him there had to be an improvement but Calderwood proved that that doesn't matter if your a flump that hasn't got a clue.

We are still a team in massive transition with stop gaps such as Maybury and the loan players. I guess I want to see more of a long term plan from the management if we are to be as patient as we are (again)

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 10:29 AM
1. Butcher hasn't signed a "whole new team" this season - all of their front four players (by far the best part of their team) were there last season.

2. ICT finishing above Hibs in the last two seasons is hardly anything to be boasting about.

3. If Aberdeen are such racing certainties to be in the top six and Hibs are dreadfully under-performing, why are Hibs above Aberdeen in the league?


Aaron Doran - signed this year

Billy McKay - signed this year

Andrew Shinnie - this year

Other Shinnie - this year

Keeper - this year

Josh Meekings - this year

That's only the ones I've looked up.

2 I would say it is if you have the budget of ICT in comparison with us.

3 Fair do's but I would say Aberdeen are a better side than us.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 10:30 AM
Quite a lot, I would suggest.

Experience is very important. For me, PF showed a lack of it on Saturday. If he learns from it, fine. I am sure that Butcher has learned a lot from his own mistakes, including the horrible experience he had in Australia.


And Fenlon is a rookie manager? :confused:

CropleyWasGod
17-12-2012, 10:31 AM
And Fenlon is a rookie manager? :confused:

He has much less experience of managing than Butcher, at a top level in general and in the SPL in particular.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 10:37 AM
He has much less experience of managing than Butcher, at a top level in general and in the SPL in particular.

True. He's still making the same mistakes as he was last season though so there's no evidence of him learning.

This is not a Paddy witch hunt by the way, I just feel he is culpable for defeats like Saturday and our hammering last week and I don't think the sun shines out his arse like many do.

Part/Time Supporter
17-12-2012, 10:37 AM
Aaron Doran - signed this year

Billy McKay - signed this year

Andrew Shinnie - this year

Other Shinnie - this year

Keeper - this year

Josh Meekings - this year

That's only the ones I've looked up.

2 I would say it is if you have the budget of ICT in comparison with us.

3 Fair do's but I would say Aberdeen are a better side than us.

If you're going to get basic facts like that wrong there isn't any point discussing it with you.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 10:42 AM
If you're going to get basic facts like that wrong there isn't any point discussing it with you.


Sorry I thought McKay signed in January like the 2 others and Graham Shinnie has been there for a couple of yours. :aok:

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 10:51 AM
It's not got much to do with it if he's basically got a brand new side from last season.I agree if it was a settled side for a few seasons of course but that isn't the case. We got horsed at home off Motherwell also and where equally as lucky to beat Hearts in the cup. We also got thumped off Inverness, Ross County and Dundee recently.

I hope after the transfer window we have much more of a settled squad. We haven't at the moment with loan signings and players contract's ending in the summer.

And credit to Fenlon, you could argue that with the budget and the facilites available to him there had to be an improvement but Calderwood proved that that doesn't matter if your a flump that hasn't got a clue.

We are still a team in massive transition with stop gaps such as Maybury and the loan players. I guess I want to see more of a long term plan from the management if we are to be as patient as we are (again)

We lost 3-2 in both hardly horsed. Fenlon is slowly building a team and have been improving this season both in terms of results and also attitude. The end of Saturday was disappointing that is for sure however our general performance up to the hour mark was ok with 2 excellent goals. He knows we need to improve different aspects of the team and squad however to me he has done a decent job and will continue to do so.

Butcher has been able to bring in players knowing for a long time who he wants to replace that is the advantage of being in the managers job for a while.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 10:53 AM
True. He's still making the same mistakes as he was last season though so there's no evidence of him learning.

This is not a Paddy witch hunt by the way, I just feel he is culpable for defeats like Saturday and our hammering last week and I don't think the sun shines out his arse like many do.

I think we can argue about his subs and whether they were correct however in both games players have managed to make basic errors in terms of defending which IMO it is difficult to blame anyone except them individually.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 10:55 AM
We lost 3-2 in both hardly horsed. Fenlon is slowly building a team and have been improving this season both in terms of results and also attitude. The end of Saturday was disappointing that is for sure however our general performance up to the hour mark was ok with 2 excellent goals. He knows we need to improve different aspects of the team and squad however to me he has done a decent job and will continue to do so.

Butcher has been able to bring in players knowing for a long time who he wants to replace that is the advantage of being in the managers job for a while.


I would say 2 nil up and losing 3-2 is a complete catastrophe.

You say Fenlon is slowly building a side but many of our better players are not here long term. In what way is that building as side? Sorry but I can't see it.

hibs0666
17-12-2012, 11:02 AM
I think we can argue about his subs and whether they were correct however in both games players have managed to make basic errors in terms of defending which IMO it is difficult to blame anyone except them individually.

Yup, the armchair experts think that a football manager is somehow god-like, and can dictate a game as if it is a game of chess. In reality 90% of a manager's work is done away from the pitch and there's only a limited amount that can be done when the whistle is blown. At that point it is down to the players on the park to win their personal battles, to show a bit of composure and to make sure they concentrate on doing their job on the park - none of which the Hibs team managed in that second half.

Fenlon saw that Hibs were being over-run, tried to do something about it but it didn't work out, and it will be back to the training ground this week to try and sort out the defensive errors that are currently killing us.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 11:03 AM
I would say 2 nil up and losing 3-2 is a complete catastrophe.

You say Fenlon is slowly building a side but many of our better players are not here long term. In what way is that building as side? Sorry but I can't see it.

Who knows who will be here assuming not you. His signings have to me been good Williams, Clancy, Cairney, Doyle, Taiwo, Deegan, McPake, while there may be a possibility of Sparky, Claros and McGivern possibly staying longer if not he has said he is considering options.

Staggering to see how negative some folk can be we beat Hearts a couple of weeks back, lose a couple and the Samaritans are being called. It takes time to build a team.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 11:04 AM
Yup, the armchair experts think that a football manager is somehow god-like, and can dictate a game as if it is a game of chess. In reality 90% of a manager's work is done away from the pitch and there's only a limited amount that can be done when the whistle is blown. At that point it is down to the players on the park to win their personal battles, to show a bit of composure and to make sure they concentrate on doing their job on the park - none of which the Hibs team managed in that second half.

Fenlon saw that Hibs were being over-run, tried to do something about it but it didn't work out, and it will be back to the training ground this week to try and sort out the defensive errors that are currently killing us.

Completely agree it is much easier on Championship Manager game of course, you simply buy Messi and win every game. :greengrin

Kato
17-12-2012, 11:09 AM
True. He's still making the same mistakes as he was last season though so there's no evidence of him learning.

This is not a Paddy witch hunt by the way, I just feel he is culpable for defeats like Saturday and our hammering last week and I don't think the sun shines out his arse like many do.


Maybe you should offer to go into East Mains and explain to him where he is going wrong.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 11:16 AM
Who knows who will be here assuming not you. His signings have to me been good Williams, Clancy, Cairney, Doyle, Taiwo, Deegan, McPake, while there may be a possibility of Sparky, Claros and McGivern possibly staying longer if not he has said he is considering options.

Staggering to see how negative some folk can be we beat Hearts a couple of weeks back, lose a couple and the Samaritans are being called. It takes time to build a team.


Who's saying the Samaritans are needing to be called in? We were dreadful against Hearts and have lost our following two games since then.

There has definitely been progress made, don't get me wrong but we are nowhere near as good as some make out the last 3 games have shown this.

Russell The Dug
17-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Maybe you should offer to go into East Mains and explain to him where he is going wrong.


I would if I knew. Unfortunately I'm not paid to know this stuff.

MB62
17-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Fenlon saw that Hibs were being over-run, tried to do something about it but it didn't work out, and it will be back to the training ground this week to try and sort out the defensive errors that are currently killing us.

The main guy that was killing us was their right winger and McGivern was being left one on one with him frequently throughout the 2nd half. Fenlon did see this and tried to do something about it but it is what he did that I disagree with and is just a different attitude on how to approach a game.
Fenlon decided to take off our two main strikers and go five in midfield and defend the lead.
IMO, I would have subbed either Cairney or Taiwo and brought on Stevenson to help give McGivern cover at left back and kept BOTH our strikers on. Ok Griffiths was maybe not having a great game but the laddie is always capable of producing something from nothing and defenders can't afford to leave him alone. By taking him off, it took a lot pressure off their defence and McCall even said himself that when HIbs went one up front, it allowed him to make a more positive substitution.

Again IMO, Claros and Taiwo are either two very similar players or are just asked to do similar a job, both as defensive midfield players and neither of them offer us much as an attacking option from midfield.
I think P.F's whole outlook is a bit negative and whilst I agree that we are a better side now than we were last season, there is something missing that makes it more of a duty than an enjoyment watching Hibees still.

Kato
17-12-2012, 12:02 PM
I would if I knew. Unfortunately I'm not paid to know this stuff.


So what mistakes are you referring to?

Phil MaGlass
17-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Who's saying the Samaritans are needing to be called in? We were dreadful against Hearts and have lost our following two games since then.

There has definitely been progress made, don't get me wrong but we are nowhere near as good as some make out the last 3 games have shown this.

Totally agree, I predicted the Hibs v ICT result and on saturday when M,well scored said to the missus we would lose 3-2, so very much Hibs and so very predictable, we were terrible against hertz, lucky to come away with the win, thank god we did. Hertz are supposed tae be struggling but they are almost breathing down our necks, why is it a team on a very good budget are still struggling against the likes of Ross County ,ICT,M,well and Dundee, ah dinnae get it, were supposed tae huv guid players?

Mikey
17-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Who's saying the Samaritans are needing to be called in? We were dreadful against Hearts and have lost our following two games since then.

There has definitely been progress made, don't get me wrong but we are nowhere near as good as some make out the last 3 games have shown this.

And nowhere near as bad.

truehibernian
17-12-2012, 12:37 PM
The main guy that was killing us was their right winger and McGivern was being left one on one with him frequently throughout the 2nd half. Fenlon did see this and tried to do something about it but it is what he did that I disagree with and is just a different attitude on how to approach a game.
Fenlon decided to take off our two main strikers and go five in midfield and defend the lead.
IMO, I would have subbed either Cairney or Taiwo and brought on Stevenson to help give McGivern cover at left back and kept BOTH our strikers on. Ok Griffiths was maybe not having a great game but the laddie is always capable of producing something from nothing and defenders can't afford to leave him alone. By taking him off, it took a lot pressure off their defence and McCall even said himself that when HIbs went one up front, it allowed him to make a more positive substitution.

Again IMO, Claros and Taiwo are either two very similar players or are just asked to do similar a job, both as defensive midfield players and neither of them offer us much as an attacking option from midfield.
I think P.F's whole outlook is a bit negative and whilst I agree that we are a better side now than we were last season, there is something missing that makes it more of a duty than an enjoyment watching Hibees still.

This is because Hibs at present play narrow and a bit deep - we play on the counter too often in my opinion and rely far too much on the opposition play breaking down so we can get the ball to Cairney and Wotherspoon quickly - neither in my opinion are doing enough defensively and are slow to track back I'm afraid. Having watched the goals again though our whole backline need a shake for playing so square and flat - as in Inverness the ball watching instead of man marking is simply unacceptable at this level of football. No wonder Williams is going off his dinger at them - the scorers strolled into scoring positions.

When you play with no natural wingers, and two sitters in Taiwo and Claros, the play is often condensed. Cairney has been superb at times but I've noticed he is starting to drift in and out of games - much like David does. They need to demand the ball more and take men on - not just play the easier ball inside or cut inside into traffic.

The way to play against 'Well would have been to press higher up the pitch - I'd like Pat to bring in a left sided winger and allow Cairney to play more central in midfield, so he can drive and create from a more central position. Then they could inter-change. I'd also like him to start Alex Harris and Sam Stanton - they are worth try I think and Harris in particular provides fleet of foot and willing to take a man on. Vital in midfield to take the side up the pitch.

Motherwell are a good side though - a very good side when flowing. We allowed them to get the ball and into the game. For 60 minutes it was controlled and comfortable. We need to get back to that and realise the workrate only stops on the full time whistle - regardless of whether we are leading or not.

Famous5forever
17-12-2012, 12:39 PM
Paddy says he will be making changes he is no happy http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/football/top-stories/disgusted-pat-fenlon-poised-to-shuffle-hibs-pack-1-2695535

Alex Trager
17-12-2012, 12:54 PM
Except of course the wide midfielder is Spoony's man. Spoony has done well this season however he doesnt offer the best protection to a full back on many occasions. The full backs will be told to tuck in nearer the centre halfs then come across when the wide man gets the ball.

See well how is it that cairney seems to grasp that he should be up putting pressure on the right back yet wotherspoon drifts about the midfield marking the wide man? Cause it's Maybury who should be looking after said man.

Billy Whizz
17-12-2012, 12:57 PM
Paddy says he will be making changes he is no happy http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/football/top-stories/disgusted-pat-fenlon-poised-to-shuffle-hibs-pack-1-2695535

What are his options?
McPakes out so at least one change!

fatbloke
17-12-2012, 12:58 PM
If you want people to take your comments seriously don't you think it would be a good idea to talk some sense?

Having played and watched for 46 years and still playing at 56 I talk perfect sense. sorry if I upset the McGivern love in but his performance against the Motherwell winger was woeful IMO.

Billy Whizz
17-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Having played and watched for 46 years and still playing at 56 I talk perfect sense. sorry if I upset the McGivern love in but his performance against the Motherwell winger was woeful IMO.

I actually agree. If you see his body position when the winger was running at him, you would think he'd never been coached

Leithenhibby
17-12-2012, 01:04 PM
Having played and watched for 46 years and still playing at 56 I talk perfect sense. sorry if I upset the McGivern love in but his performance against the Motherwell winger was woeful IMO.

From what I saw he had his worst game in a Hibs shirt to date....

As a team, we have a fair bit work to do before we start getting the consistency that we all crave.. :wink:

Mikey
17-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Having played and watched for 46 years and still playing at 56 I talk perfect sense. sorry if I upset the McGivern love in but his performance against the Motherwell winger was woeful IMO.

Are you standing by your statement that McGivern didn't get within 25 yards of him then?

hibs0666
17-12-2012, 01:16 PM
The main guy that was killing us was their right winger and McGivern was being left one on one with him frequently throughout the 2nd half. Fenlon did see this and tried to do something about it but it is what he did that I disagree with and is just a different attitude on how to approach a game.
Fenlon decided to take off our two main strikers and go five in midfield and defend the lead.
IMO, I would have subbed either Cairney or Taiwo and brought on Stevenson to help give McGivern cover at left back and kept BOTH our strikers on. Ok Griffiths was maybe not having a great game but the laddie is always capable of producing something from nothing and defenders can't afford to leave him alone. By taking him off, it took a lot pressure off their defence and McCall even said himself that when HIbs went one up front, it allowed him to make a more positive substitution.

Again IMO, Claros and Taiwo are either two very similar players or are just asked to do similar a job, both as defensive midfield players and neither of them offer us much as an attacking option from midfield.
I think P.F's whole outlook is a bit negative and whilst I agree that we are a better side now than we were last season, there is something missing that makes it more of a duty than an enjoyment watching Hibees still.

It's never just one guy that does the damage. For sure Humphreys continually delivered the cutting edge but as a team we allowed Motherwell the opportunity to get the ball to him time and again, and we allowed the same thing to happen with Ojama on the other side. Even if the Motherwell wingers continued to beat their men it would still have little impact if we were picking up the runners but that didn't happen.

Fenlon tried to kill Motherwell's supply of balls at source by tying up the midfield but our heroes weren't up to that task, even with another man drafted in to help the cause. Given the way in which Motherwell players were able to get into our box un-molested it was only a matter of time and how many as far as Motherwell were concerned.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 04:20 PM
See well how is it that cairney seems to grasp that he should be up putting pressure on the right back yet wotherspoon drifts about the midfield marking the wide man? Cause it's Maybury who should be looking after said man.

In a 442 the right mid of one team will be marking the left mid of the other. If the left mid has the ball and is driving at the defence it will be 2v1 in favour of the defence. If there is an overload and the full back is pushing on and it is 2v2 wide the defenders will communicate who picks up who.

JimBHibees
17-12-2012, 04:27 PM
It's never just one guy that does the damage. For sure Humphreys continually delivered the cutting edge but as a team we allowed Motherwell the opportunity to get the ball to him time and again, and we allowed the same thing to happen with Ojama on the other side. Even if the Motherwell wingers continued to beat their men it would still have little impact if we were picking up the runners but that didn't happen.

Fenlon tried to kill Motherwell's supply of balls at source by tying up the midfield but our heroes weren't up to that task, even with another man drafted in to help the cause. Given the way in which Motherwell players were able to get into our box un-molested it was only a matter of time and how many as far as Motherwell were concerned.

Spot on.

Even allowing for Humphreys getting the ball into the box on 2 or 3 occasions late in the second half there shouldn't have been much danger if the defenders marked the men in the box as tight as they should have. There are loads of teams that sit in and pack the midfield allowing the other team the ball when leading hoping to protect a lead. At professional level we should have been able to do it much better than we did and to lose 3 goals all of which were with guys unmarked near the goal was embarressing IMO.

In many ways PF's decision to go 5 in the middle had some merit if we were able to defend as we should have been. If we had won 2-1 it would have been seen as a good move however it didnt and we buckled badly leaving him open to criticism which to me should have been in the main better directed at some of the players not able to do the basics.

MB62
18-12-2012, 10:42 AM
In many ways PF's decision to go 5 in the middle had some merit if we were able to defend as we should have been. If we had won 2-1 it would have been seen as a good move however it didnt and we buckled badly leaving him open to criticism which to me should have been in the main better directed at some of the players not able to do the basics.

And this is what I meant regarding P.F's negative attitude. If we had kept our two main strikers on, regardless of how well or otherwise they had played, there was always a chance that 2-1 might have ended up 3-1 but with them off the park, it was always going to be a case of holding on for a result.
I know hindsight is wonderful but on this occasion, there was like a whole 'yer having a laugh Pat' reaction when he subbed Griffiths. We still might have gone on to lose the game with those two on the park but we had no chance of adding to our tally with them becoming spectators.
Absolutely terrible substitutions and he is not even man enough to admit he got it wrong.
Fair enough, change the team for next week Pat, but have a look at yourself whilst you're at it, it might just help all round.

hibs0666
18-12-2012, 10:53 AM
And this is what I meant regarding P.F's negative attitude. If we had kept our two main strikers on, regardless of how well or otherwise they had played, there was always a chance that 2-1 might have ended up 3-1 but with them off the park, it was always going to be a case of holding on for a result.
I know hindsight is wonderful but on this occasion, there was like a whole 'yer having a laugh Pat' reaction when he subbed Griffiths. We still might have gone on to lose the game with those two on the park but we had no chance of adding to our tally with them becoming spectators.
Absolutely terrible substitutions and he is not even man enough to admit he got it wrong.
Fair enough, change the team for next week Pat, but have a look at yourself whilst you're at it, it might just help all round.

I don't get the negative attitude stuff. He started the game with Griffiths and Doyle so it's a bit daft accusing him of being negative.

Griffiths got hooked because he was absolutely honkin and Doyle was blowing out of his erse. If Hibs had been beaten 3-2 with Doyle and Griffiths on the park then exactly the same punters would be having a hissy fit because the manager hadn't went to 4-5-1 to try and stem the flow.

Stevie Reid
18-12-2012, 11:26 AM
I also agree with the posters who are questioning how people are unhappy with our football this season - yes at times we lump it aimlessly up the park (who doesn't in the SPL?!) and we are not very well equipped to deal with such a style, but on many occasions this season the football has been really good, the best since Collins IMO, and we have scored some superb goals.

I am always stunned at how little people seem to understand that football is a game that fluctuates, and even the Barcelonas and Man Uniteds of this world rarely dominate a game for 90 minutes in their domestic leagues - teams very rarely get everything right and whilst for 55 minutes at the weekend we were very good and never threatened by Motherwell, for the remainder of the game they destroyed us. They couldn't cope with us for 55 minutes and we couldn't cope with them for 35 minutes, and sadly we capitulated and they did more damage when they were on top than we did during our dominance - that is the key to winning matches in any league, take your chances when you are on top and defend well when you're under pressure; sadly we only got it half right on Saturday.

I've already commented on Fenlon's subs, whilst the intentions were understandable, they backfired badly and that was disappointing - however, he will make mistakes and he has gotten lot more right than he has wrong this season, which should make mistakes easier to forgive. Sadly that seems not to be the case with many posters, and yet again the appetite of many to rip into Fenlon and the players has come to the fore.

It is worth remembering that Motherwell finished 3rd by a distance last season and have kept the same squad - they recently went on a run of four straight defeats without even scoring a goal, and have a poor home record, yet are sitting clear in 2nd place in the SPL (having recently beaten ICT 5-1 away from home). We had a makeshift back four that recently conceded one goal in a week when we won 2 out of 3, before we then shipped 6 goals in two games. The SPL is an exciting, competitive league this year and halfway through we have shown that we are a top 4 team, and capable of doing even better than that.

That, and the entertainment on offer at ER and overall match day experience being more enjoyable, will do me for now.

MB62
18-12-2012, 11:56 AM
I don't get the negative attitude stuff. He started the game with Griffiths and Doyle so it's a bit daft accusing him of being negative.

So taking your two main strikers off is not a negative move?
Oh well, every one to their own.



Griffiths got hooked because he was absolutely honkin and Doyle was blowing out of his erse. If Hibs had been beaten 3-2 with Doyle and Griffiths on the park then exactly the same punters would be having a hissy fit because the manager hadn't went to 4-5-1 to try and stem the flow.

He might well have one of his poorer games but he only needs half a chance to bang the ball in the net and no way would I have taken him off. Strikers all over the world will have bad games where they have done nowt then all of a sudden a chance comes their way and the ball is in the net.
I'm afraid I am in the 'yet to be convinced' camp with young Caldwell but if Fenlon felt his two strikers needed replaced then he at least had another two to bring on.
I have never been a supporter of the 4-5-1 formation, at least not at home anyway, and any hissy fit from me is when we revert to that tactic.

Sudds_1
19-12-2012, 12:32 PM
True. He's still making the same mistakes as he was last season though so there's no evidence of him learning.

This is not a Paddy witch hunt by the way, I just feel he is culpable for defeats like Saturday and our hammering last week and I don't think the sun shines out his arse like many do.

Neither do I.........and I'm on record as saying he was largely responsible for the defeat on Saturday due to a bad tactical switch. He looked to bring in 451 to stiffen the midfield........called it as he saw it, and got it wrong. That happens and hopefully he'll learn from it.

But it doesn't make him an abject failure. Look at the whole picture and how he's shaping the team.......we are VASTLY improved over last season. Yes, we'll have little blips on the radar. Everyone does. But to suggest as some are on here that he's not the man for the job is bordering on the insane. The long standing damage to the team by previous managers will take time to recover. That damage ran very deep and not just the first team squad. Fenlon has to build a revitalised culture into the club. Picking his own men..........making his own mark. That takes time.................

..and no-one is infallible - not even Sir Alex. :greengrin:wink::cb

Mikey
19-12-2012, 12:43 PM
Neither do I.........and I'm on record as saying he was largely responsible for the defeat on Saturday due to a bad tactical switch. He looked to bring in 451 to stiffen the midfield........called it as he saw it, and got it wrong. That happens and hopefully he'll learn from it.

But it doesn't make him an abject failure. Look at the whole picture and how he's shaping the team.......we are VASTLY improved over last season. Yes, we'll have little blips on the radar. Everyone does. But to suggest as some are on here that he's not the man for the job is bordering on the insane. The long standing damage to the team by previous managers will take time to recover. That damage ran very deep and not just the first team squad. Fenlon has to build a revitalised culture into the club. Picking his own men..........making his own mark. That takes time.................

..and no-one is infallible - not even Sir Alex. :greengrin:wink::cb

Unfortunately, some don't have the mental capacity to see anything other than black or white. There's no reasoned middle ground.

And don't they let us know about it!!

Sudds_1
19-12-2012, 12:58 PM
Unfortunately, some don't have the mental capacity to see anything other than black or white. There's no reasoned middle ground.

And don't they let us know about it!!

aye..........don't they just! :wink:

Famous5forever
19-12-2012, 03:26 PM
Neither do I.........and I'm on record as saying he was largely responsible for the defeat on Saturday due to a bad tactical switch. He looked to bring in 451 to stiffen the midfield........called it as he saw it, and got it wrong. That happens and hopefully he'll learn from it.

But it doesn't make him an abject failure. Look at the whole picture and how he's shaping the team.......we are VASTLY improved over last season. Yes, we'll have little blips on the radar. Everyone does. But to suggest as some are on here that he's not the man for the job is bordering on the insane. The long standing damage to the team by previous managers will take time to recover. That damage ran very deep and not just the first team squad. Fenlon has to build a revitalised culture into the club. Picking his own men..........making his own mark. That takes time.................

..and no-one is infallible - not even Sir Alex. :greengrin:wink::cb

He must be doing something right as he made it past the AGM Avoiding petries party trick we need to keep a hold og LG though as his goals have been vital. Over to you Petrie

Stevie Reid
19-12-2012, 08:15 PM
I'm going to post this in more than one thread as it's relevant in more than one thread. I have said a few times recently that some of the football we have played has been the best since the early days of Collins, and that I believe that Fenlon has just signed more good players and significantly improved us more in one summer transfer window than any manager since Mowbray, which got me thinking.

Mowbray took over when we were at a real low ebb after the Williamson era and the League Cup Final defeat to Livi - ok it wasn't exactly narrowly missing out on relegation and being hammered 5-1 in the Scottish Cup Final by Hearts, but it was a bad time and outwith 4-0 and 5-1, that 2-0 defeat to Livingston was the worst I had ever felt as a Hibbie.

Given that we had finished in 8th place the previous season and had lots of promising youngsters coming through, you can certainly argue that Mowbray came into a better situation than Fenlon did when he came in last year, and after the Cup Final - both had similar financial restraints that had come about because of the a financial situation caused by the collapse of SPL TV, and the Rangers situation, respectively.

Now after 18 games of this season we are sitting on 27 points from 8 wins, 3 draws and 7 losses. After the first 18 league games of Mowbray's tenure we had 30 points, coming from 9 wins, 3 draws and 6 losses. I think Fenlon has been as much of a breath of fresh air as Mowbray was in terms of the transformation of how enjoyable the match day experience is, what he has to say as a manager, and how I feel as a Hibs season ticket holder compared to a few months earlier.

Whilst the football isn't as good as it was under Mowbray (who had a better starting point), one of the biggest criticisms of Mowbray's team was that it was soft, easily bullied, and couldn't dig in at times - this season we have a good amount of football in us, but have also demonstrated a harder, more physical edge to us, and have won games when we have been under the cosh (another thing that many stated that TM's team was incapable of doing). Playing well and losing has shown to be a possibility with both teams thus far.

My Dad compared the game on Saturday to the 4-4 draw with Dundee at the start of the Mowbray season, when we were 4-1 up with less than half an hour to go, in that although the final result was disappointing, you could see enough to feel very confident that better results weren't far away (in many ways the Aberdeen home defeat was similar to the 1-0 home defeat we suffered against Killie on the opening day of the TM season IMO), and I think that is a very good and very valid comparison.

We have made giant strides this season, just like we had by 18 games into the Mowbray season, and I see much cause for optimism, just like I did back then - one big difference is that with no Rangers this season, the SPL is more exciting and more unpredictable than it's ever been. I truly cannot understand the negativity that comes from so many on here at the moment, especially when reacting to a simple statement of a simple fact from the board.

After the disater that was last season, many people stated that they would be happy to see a gradual improvement in us, as long as the signs of progress were there - many also wanted a more physical, street smart team that was more resilient and wouldn't buckle easily. Well Fenlon has brought much of that in a much quicker timescale than many of us thought possible, and the signs are very much there that he can continue to improve us.

Yes, recent results (and some performances) have been very disappointing, and there is a long way to go, but all the good that he has done hasn't just evaporated in the last 6 games (in which we have just enjoyed one of our most satisfying victories ever over Hearts and made them shortest reigning SC champions ever). I'm loving this season, and am optimistic that that will continue.

Sudds_1
19-12-2012, 09:55 PM
I'm going to post this in more than one thread as it's relevant in more than one thread. I have said a few times recently that some of the football we have played has been the best since the early days of Collins, and that I believe that Fenlon has just signed more good players and significantly improved us more in one summer transfer window than any manager since Mowbray, which got me thinking.

Mowbray took over when we were at a real low ebb after the Williamson era and the League Cup Final defeat to Livi - ok it wasn't exactly narrowly missing out on relegation and being hammered 5-1 in the Scottish Cup Final by Hearts, but it was a bad time and outwith 4-0 and 5-1, that 2-0 defeat to Livingston was the worst I had ever felt as a Hibbie.

Given that we had finished in 8th place the previous season and had lots of promising youngsters coming through, you can certainly argue that Mowbray came into a better situation than Fenlon did when he came in last year, and after the Cup Final - both had similar financial restraints that had come about because of the a financial situation caused by the collapse of SPL TV, and the Rangers situation, respectively.

Now after 18 games of this season we are sitting on 27 points from 8 wins, 3 draws and 7 losses. After the first 18 league games of Mowbray's tenure we had 30 points, coming from 9 wins, 3 draws and 6 losses. I think Fenlon has been as much of a breath of fresh air as Mowbray was in terms of the transformation of how enjoyable the match day experience is, what he has to say as a manager, and how I feel as a Hibs season ticket holder compared to a few months earlier.

Whilst the football isn't as good as it was under Mowbray (who had a better starting point), one of the biggest criticisms of Mowbray's team was that it was soft, easily bullied, and couldn't dig in at times - this season we have a good amount of football in us, but have also demonstrated a harder, more physical edge to us, and have won games when we have been under the cosh (another thing that many stated that TM's team was incapable of doing). Playing well and losing has shown to be a possibility with both teams thus far.

My Dad compared the game on Saturday to the 4-4 draw with Dundee at the start of the Mowbray season, when we were 4-1 up with less than half an hour to go, in that although the final result was disappointing, you could see enough to feel very confident that better results weren't far away (in many ways the Aberdeen home defeat was similar to the 1-0 home defeat we suffered against Killie on the opening day of the TM season IMO), and I think that is a very good and very valid comparison.

We have made giant strides this season, just like we had by 18 games into the Mowbray season, and I see much cause for optimism, just like I did back then - one big difference is that with no Rangers this season, the SPL is more exciting and more unpredictable than it's ever been. I truly cannot understand the negativity that comes from so many on here at the moment, especially when reacting to a simple statement of a simple fact from the board.

After the disater that was last season, many people stated that they would be happy to see a gradual improvement in us, as long as the signs of progress were there - many also wanted a more physical, street smart team that was more resilient and wouldn't buckle easily. Well Fenlon has brought much of that in a much quicker timescale than many of us thought possible, and the signs are very much there that he can continue to improve us.

Yes, recent results (and some performances) have been very disappointing, and there is a long way to go, but all the good that he has done hasn't just evaporated in the last 6 games (in which we have just enjoyed one of our most satisfying victories ever over Hearts and made them shortest reigning SC champions ever). I'm loving this season, and am optimistic that that will continue.

:agree:

hibs0666
30-12-2012, 12:18 AM
So taking your two main strikers off is not a negative move?
Oh well, every one to their own.




He might well have one of his poorer games but he only needs half a chance to bang the ball in the net and no way would I have taken him off. Strikers all over the world will have bad games where they have done nowt then all of a sudden a chance comes their way and the ball is in the net.
I'm afraid I am in the 'yet to be convinced' camp with young Caldwell but if Fenlon felt his two strikers needed replaced then he at least had another two to bring on.
I have never been a supporter of the 4-5-1 formation, at least not at home anyway, and any hissy fit from me is when we revert to that tactic.

You must have been gutted at the formation today, doubly so when Griffiths got the hook.

blackpoolhibs
30-12-2012, 12:21 AM
I blame Fenlon for that today 100%.

hibs0666
30-12-2012, 12:22 AM
I blame Fenlon for that today 100%.

Totally his fault imagine playing a 451 and taking off the main man. Should be ashamed, would never have happened with the Tornadoes