Safe Standing - a Step forward

[down-the-slope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20679867

The FSF says the idea has the support of Aston Villa and the Scottish Premier League plus 12 Football League clubs, including Peterborough United, (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19095689) Cardiff City, Crystal Palace, Derby County and Hull City.

I hope Hibs can be the trial ...another first...Lower FF for me

[Keith_M]

In one word, why this won't happen at ER...


Money!

[HH81]

If you want to stand at Hibs games just go to section 43.....

[Mikey]

The lower sections in the north, west and south would be perfect for this. It really wouldn't be difficult to control the number of people in there by making those sections all ticket.

[.Sean.]

A blind eye is usually turned to standing up here anyway, stood at all away games this year, including Celtic Park where I've been chucked out of for standing in the past, and can't remember any hassle.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Parts of our ground are now just far too steep to make this safe. Whenever I take the old yin along to a game now, we always sit right near the front of the east as he doesn't feel too confident going high up. Seems a bit odd that you should feel less safe in a newer facility.

[LancashireHibby]

If you want to stand at Hibs games just go to section 43.....
This.

[Pete]

The arguments against it are a load of nonsense.

That statement by the premier league contains things that are totally irrelevant. All this stuff about Hillsborough is also irrelevant.

Why do these people keep telling us that we collectively don't want or need it when so many, probably a majority, clearly do?

If people are that bothered about safety they would be screaming for a zero tolerance approach to standing already. The "permitted" standing on the east is much more dangerous than this safe standing on a suitable rake would be.

[cabbageandribs1875]

have to say i found the east stand a helluva steep, by the time i reached row AA i was knackered :boo hoo: can i vote for making it a two-tier stand now :) :flag:






or even put lifts in at the back :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

It's surely all about choice.

I want to stand at a game with a 'proper' terrace so why shouldn't a facility be provided to allow me to do this.

As long as seats are also left in place so that those who wish to continue to sit can also do so.

[hibsbollah]

If it happened at ER id be delighted. I fear that Rod's innate caution will scupper it though...

[jgl07]

Does anyone seriously expect Hibs to spend large sums of money on converting part of the ground?

OK it will increase capacity but only for domestic matches. Hibs have not sold out a match since the East Stand was built.

People will expect to pay less to stand.

It is a complete non-starter.

[IWasThere2016]

Does anyone seriously expect Hibs to spend large sums of money on converting part of the ground?

OK it will increase capacity but only for domestic matches. Hibs have not sold out a match since the East Stand was built.

People will expect to pay less to stand.

It is a complete non-starter.

Sadly, I agree - I'd prefer to stand though personally.

[marinello59]

Does anyone seriously expect Hibs to spend large sums of money on converting part of the ground?

OK it will increase capacity but only for domestic matches. Hibs have not sold out a match since the East Stand was built.

People will expect to pay less to stand.

It is a complete non-starter.

There is a very strong demand for standing areas so why would people expect to pay less for what is perceived as a more attractive option? I would happily pay the same for a space in a safe standing area.

[ZS DOOM]

It's not going to change anything so why bother spending money on it?

Section 43 of the east is the place to go for standing.

[marinello59]

It's not going to change anything so why bother spending money on it?

Section 43 of the east is the place to go for standing.

A proper safe standing area would be better than the current turning a blind eye compromise. Surely we should demand the best we can get.

[Scouse Hibee]

The arguments against it are a load of nonsense.

That statement by the premier league contains things that are totally irrelevant. All this stuff about Hillsborough is also irrelevant.

Why do these people keep telling us that we collectively don't want or need it when so many, probably a majority, clearly do?

If people are that bothered about safety they would be screaming for a zero tolerance approach to standing already. The "permitted" standing on the east is much more dangerous than this safe standing on a suitable rake would be.

In your opinion not mine!

[monktonharp]

A proper safe standing area would be better than the current turning a blind eye compromise. Surely we should demand the best we can get.:agree:myself and several other Hibbies/celts were
at the Brentford v MK Dons game on saturday. fantastic time, and very refreshing to be able to stand, all through the game, have a fag oot the back if ye wanted and a pint,anytime. as long as you adhered to the lines where nae peeve was allowed. Clayton Donaldson topped it all off,last minute goal for Brentford. 3-2 :greengrin he's one of our own:greengrin

[PerfectlyFranck]

In your opinion not mine!

I don't mean any disrespect but modern standing areas with the UK's requirements and restrictions do make it quite irrelevant especially when taking into account the standing areas would be sold 'by seat' with no excess of supporters able to be admitted.

It's not terracing and the standing areas themselves are more than safe for supporters to watch the game the way they want.


It'll not happen at Hibs though!

As long as stewards and the police remain relaxed about us standing I'd rather the whole of the East be allowed to stand without issue rather than people try and cram into the one Section. Section43 has proved to be successful so far and hopefully this will continue to grow and have the full East standing and singing again.

[StevieC]

Section 43 of the east is the place to go for standing.

The title of the thread is "safe" standing. Whilst Section 43 is an area where standing is permitted, I wouldn't necessarily say it was safe standing. Seated areas are not suited for standing and a "sway" could result in an injury.

The FF Lower seems to be the most likely area for a standing area, and I don't think the costs would be as prohibitive as some are making out.
It would of course need a new area of the ground allocated as a family section and would those currently in Section 43 be willing to move behind the goals (many "ultras" in European grounds base themselves behind the goals)?

[drifter533814]

I would love this to become reality, as (with the exception of certain sections within the east stand) It has become boring in certain areas(atmosphere wise).
I grew up supporting Hibs In the east stand, and anyone who was part of the old terracing must have noticed the decline in atmosphere when the new east was built.
But imagine an area where 2000-3000 Hibs fans could bounce properly, it would be like the old days again( albeit on a smaller scale)

[lord bunberry]

The ayr cup game last season was the best game i was at the atmosphere was brilliant and imo the reason for that is we were all in a standing area

[Lucius Apuleius]

The ayr cup game last season was the best game i was at the atmosphere was brilliant and imo the reason for that is we were all in a standing area

Yep, it was that good I had to take my missus to the medics as she was knocked off her feet by some drunken freakin idiots behind us and slashed her leg open.

[ScottB]

I'd rather not frankly.

It's money better spent on players than ripping up our stands. I can't see it being a huge boost to attendances and would probably represent a drop in income for the club having to charge less for standing tickets.

In any case, we appear to be allowed to stand at ER without being bothered, so why do we need to waste money to keep doing this?

[down-the-slope]

The title of the thread is "safe" standing. Whilst Section 43 is an area where standing is permitted, I wouldn't necessarily say it was safe standing. Seated areas are not suited for standing and a "sway" could result in an injury.

The FF Lower seems to be the most likely area for a standing area, and I don't think the costs would be as prohibitive as some are making out.
It would of course need a new area of the ground allocated as a family section and would those currently in Section 43 be willing to move behind the goals (many "ultras" in European grounds base themselves behind the goals)?

Indeed Stevie - SAFE is gthe important. Currently the standing tolerated at ER in is the 'least' appropriate area due to rake of single tier. gthe danger is that if ther are injuries due to this anf the lack of design / barriers etc....it will kick any future progress into the long grass..



I for one who be happy to get involved in raising money / buying a 10 year ST etc for such instalation in the FF lower. The over sanititaion of football has turned many of - best match last season Ayr away...a real tip...but :top marksfor atmoshpere

EDIT - just read Lord B's post..Ayr was tops

[down-the-slope]

I am surprised no one else is well surprised that SPL are being quoted as supportive. Guess someone could be asking Garry O'Hagan tonight (at LWT meeting) if he knows who / how this support is being articulated

[500miles]

I'm not sure that there are that many people in support of standing areas. Hibs.net is a community in which there are more likely to be people with fond memories of the old days, or who have romanticised ideas regarding those days. There are more women and kids at the games these days, there's disabled access, there's policing issues, and we can't even fill section 43 half the time, so it's not as if folk are going to start turning up at ER because we've pissed money away on ripping out seats and turning them into standing space. Plus, folk will want in for cheaper if it's standing space, so we'd lose money again.

Nostalgia is a cracking thing. If you want to kid on it's the 70's, "Toffs " do some cracking replica shirts from that era.

[blackpoolhibs]

The title of the thread is "safe" standing. Whilst Section 43 is an area where standing is permitted, I wouldn't necessarily say it was safe standing. Seated areas are not suited for standing and a "sway" could result in an injury.

The FF Lower seems to be the most likely area for a standing area, and I don't think the costs would be as prohibitive as some are making out.

It would of course need a new area of the ground allocated as a family section and would those currently in Section 43 be willing to move behind the goals (many "ultras" in European grounds base themselves behind the goals)?

I think you are 100% spot on. :top marks

[Matty_Jack04]

Someone tweeted yesterday morning that the SPL has given the go ahead for this 12 months ago and no club has expressed any desire to run with it, wish I could mind who it was but it says a lot about how the clubs view it.

Personally I don't see how standing will make any difference to attendances, I don't know anyone who's reasons for not going each week is because they can't stand, it's more about costs and quality, on SSN yesterday morning they had a guy on who was talking about how the Taylor report was outdated now and standing areas could work better due to technology advances he also mentioned that the Taylor report said that people shouldn't be charged more than £11 for football, adding in inflation since the report that figure becomes £16, you can't watch football for that amount anywhere, a friend of mine (a yam) went to see man city v Newcastle last year and paid £4 less for a ticket than it cost him to watch the yams v st mirren the previous week! If all clubs got there heads together on reasonable pricing we'd see attendances rise there must be a way in which we can set prices during the season depending on importance of the fixture or something along those lines instead of set £22 and then £28 for cat A games

[Lucius Apuleius]

Someone tweeted yesterday morning that the SPL has given the go ahead for this 12 months ago and no club has expressed any desire to run with it, wish I could mind who it was but it says a lot about how the clubs view it.

Personally I don't see how standing will make any difference to attendances, I don't know anyone who's reasons for not going each week is because they can't stand, it's more about costs and quality, on SSN yesterday morning they had a guy on who was talking about how the Taylor report was outdated now and standing areas could work better due to technology advances he also mentioned that the Taylor report said that people shouldn't be charged more than £11 for football, adding in inflation since the report that figure becomes £16, you can't watch football for that amount anywhere, a friend of mine (a yam) went to see man city v Newcastle last year and paid £4 less for a ticket than it cost him to watch the yams v st mirren the previous week! If all clubs got there heads together on reasonable pricing we'd see attendances rise there must be a way in which we can set prices during the season depending on importance of the fixture or something along those lines instead of set £22 and then £28 for cat A games

The tickets for Tynecastle thread kind of belies your cost statement. People happy to pay even more than we do at the minute. To cut admission costs have to be cut somewhere. Biggest single cost is salaries. Lower wages for football players=lower level players=lower crowds=less income=less salaries=lower level players etc etc etc ad infinitum.

[ruthven_raiders]

Remember EPL teams get quite a bit of money from sky so of course the can be more creative with regards to prices for tickets and especially season tickets so comparing England with Scotland isn't a good comparison. Looking at Germany maybe a more realistic pricing comparison but there the crowds are huge and here well let's say they ain't good lol

[blackpoolhibs]

The tickets for Tynecastle thread kind of belies your cost statement. People happy to pay even more than we do at the minute. To cut admission costs have to be cut somewhere. Biggest single cost is salaries. Lower wages for football players=lower level players=lower crowds=less income=less salaries=lower level players etc etc etc ad infinitum.

I dont think it does, i keep hearing and reading peoples disgust about how much it is to watch SPL football.

Although i do understand the less money we take in will probably result in less quality on the field. There is only so much you can squeeze out of the Hibs support, we dont have people to replace those who are not coming because the price is too high, so must try and do something about the cost.

Its become too expensive for some, and it does get harder to entice them back once they have gone.

The odd game with Hearts like the new year derby will always get folk scrambling for tickets, but your ordinary run of the mill game not so.

I dont know the answer, but football is pricing itself out for many.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I dont think it does, i keep hearing and reading peoples disgust about how much it is to watch SPL football.

Although i do understand the less money we take in will probably result in less quality on the field. There is only so much you can squeeze out of the Hibs support, we dont have people to replace those who are not coming because the price is too high, so must try and do something about the cost.

Its become too expensive for some, and it does get harder to entice them back once they have gone.

The odd game with Hearts like the new year derby will always get folk scrambling for tickets, but your ordinary run of the mill game not so.

I dont know the answer, but football is pricing itself out for many.

Can only go by what the guys are saying on the other thread G.

[DC_Hibs]

I don't think the costs would be as prohibitive as some are making out.


Sadly it is. Been well quoted that the costs for the fold away seats are high which means its unlikely we will be tearing out seats in an existing stand and replacing them with the new type. This might have been a goer when we were building the East but too late now.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/289210-explained-how-safe-standing-would-work-in-scotland/
"At present, one rail seat costs 100 euros (£84), compared to around £30 for each plastic seat currently used at grounds".

I would be happy if this was implemented giving fans the choice. I'm sure we would be safer than the German model as I have been in various standing sections in 6 seasons of watching Bundesliga and there's been a few safety issues.

Main one being overcrowding in sections that arent split. Also people standing on stairways forcing even more people to stand at the bottom. Our stewarding would likely be stricter.

Example here - http://www.uf97.de/galerie/1112/09_dresden/09.jpg - double the numbers at bottom and no sign of stairwells.

http://www.uf97.de/galerie/1011/32_mainz/24.jpg - This stadium is no more but serious safety concerns at this game with folk packed in like sardines

An issue that shouldnt arise is people without standing tickets getting into the standing section. Happens all the time in Germany as you can enter via any turnstyle normally then show your ticket at entry to the section. One guy will come back out of the section with multiple tickets and hand it to others to get in.
Having separate turnstyles for the standing section would sort that issue out.

[Matty_Jack04]

The tickets for Tynecastle thread kind of belies your cost statement. People happy to pay even more than we do at the minute. To cut admission costs have to be cut somewhere. Biggest single cost is salaries. Lower wages for football players=lower level players=lower crowds=less income=less salaries=lower level players etc etc etc ad infinitum.

Ive not read that thread but I will later on, I understand the lower wages,level,crowds point you've made and your right in what your saying but I feel that we are down to near enough our 'hardcore' support base after the last few years these are the people who are happy to pay more and good on them without those types of supporters we'd be nowhere BUT not everyone is in that position and they have stopped going we can't squeeze the life out of our 10k hardcore support we have to make it easier for people to come back to ER because by now they will be spending there money elsewhere and for me standing isn't the answer to that its cost, I'm not saying drop all games to £16 what I am saying is that games like for example hibs v Dundee a few months back cost £22 to get in that game was the club 12 scenario if the cost was dropped slightly we could have saw the crowd rise to nearer what we would have had if it has been sevco instead, it also entices a bigger travelling support enhancing the match day experience which could sway people to come back when it's a bigger game at full price, we have to try something all the clubs do we may as well try something collectively and we can't try something that's going to cost the clubs money like safe standing areas

[Mikey]

I don't think the costs would be as prohibitive as some are making out.


I tend to agree. I'm not a great fans of "try this" and "try that" as they almost always involve spending money or reducing prices, but I think this would have a positive effect on attendances (and the general atmosphere) even although there would be an initial outlay.

Priority of course going to those who already sit in the areas which would be converted :wink:

[Scouse Hibee]

I tend to agree. I'm not a great fans of "try this" and "try that" as they almost always involve spending money or reducing prices, but I think this would have a positive effect on attendances (and the general atmosphere) even although there would be an initial outlay.

Priority of course going to those who already sit in the areas which would be converted :wink:


Are you saying that people who don't normally attend will be inclined to attend because there will be a standing section? We have a core support that we are struggling to increase through performances and league position so surely if that doesn't tempt folk back nothing will. Unless of course the club is able to sustain the outlay and then reduce the prices for standing areas which I doubt would be possible. The one thing I will say having sampled the East on a few occasions is that the steepness of the stand makes it a most unsafe place to stand! Section 43 should be the trial area if it ever happens.

[lucky]

I don't think a standing area will increase attendances but it will give fans a choice.

[ScottB]

I tend to agree. I'm not a great fans of "try this" and "try that" as they almost always involve spending money or reducing prices, but I think this would have a positive effect on attendances (and the general atmosphere) even although there would be an initial outlay.

Priority of course going to those who already sit in the areas which would be converted :wink:

But surely to increase attendances that assumes there is a large (and for this to be worthwhile it would probably need to be a good thousand folk) number of fans who are currently not attending games but would attend regularly if they could stand.

I'm not convinced such a market exists in a viable quantity. The club has spent more than enough on infrastructure as it is, so unless it could be decisively proven that spending yet more cash on something other than the playing squad would equal xxxx many new season ticket holders I can't see how doing this would do anything other than take money out of Pat's budget.

[lord bunberry]

Yep, it was that good I had to take my missus to the medics as she was knocked off her feet by some drunken freakin idiots behind us and slashed her leg open.

But that could have happened if it had been an all seater stadium

[Kato]

In one word, why this won't happen at ER...


Money!

We could get some Hearts fans to remove the seats free of charge!!!

[Moon unit]

have to say i found the east stand a helluva steep, by the time i reached row AA i was knackered :boo hoo: can i vote for making it a two-



or even put lifts in at the back :greengrin
I take it no Rocky re enactments for you or your old man when you reach A.A !..:confused:

[Lucius Apuleius]

But that could have happened if it had been an all seater stadium


Much less chance. For one thing there is only one row behind us :wink: This was caused by a bunch of drunken neanderthals rushing to the front.

[blackpoolhibs]

Much less chance. For one thing there is only one row behind us :wink: This was caused by a bunch of drunken neanderthals rushing to the front.

I dont think that can happen with SAFE standing? Also anyone going to the standing area, would automatically know before going in, it was going to be a little more shall we say excitable than the seating areas of the ground.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I dont think that can happen with SAFE standing? Also anyone going to the standing area, would automatically know before going in, it was going to be a little more shall we say excitable than the seating areas of the ground.

Course it could. However original point made was that Ayr was fantastic. I beg to differ. It might have been brilliant for the young drunken team, it certainly was not fantastic for me. It is all about choice at the end of the day. No problem with people satnding. Just don't want them standing behind me.

[IWasThere2016]

The ayr cup game last season was the best game i was at the atmosphere was brilliant and imo the reason for that is we were all in a standing area

Yup - I enjoyed CowdenLumphyGellyBeath for this reason also

[blackpoolhibs]

Course it could. However original point made was that Ayr was fantastic. I beg to differ. It might have been brilliant for the young drunken team, it certainly was not fantastic for me. It is all about choice at the end of the day. No problem with people satnding. Just don't want them standing behind me.

I thought safe standing had barriers on every step, surely that would stop any surge?

Plus anyone going to that are would know its going to be more boisterous?

[StevieC]

I think you are 100% spot on. :top marks

I never thought I'd ever hear you say that. :greengrin

[Scouse Hibee]

The area provided is only one factor in the safety of standing returning to games, needs to be one hell of a lot more things looked at as opposed to just installing equipment. Lots of things have changed over the years for the good and some not so good. Unfortunately the bad includes the absurd behaviour of some folk when attending games, standing will just be another trigger for some of these clowns to forget how to behave properly. If we could take away the people factor we might be on to a winner.

[Brizo]

Great idea but cant see it happening. On a similar thread not too long ago a netter who seemed to know his architecture explained that its not just a case of removing seats and installing crush barriers. Our new stands have been constructed to accomodate seated customers not standing ones ; and there are significant structural implications.... which would lead to significant financial implications.

Im also not convinced that a few years down the line people wouldnt start to make the case that standing areas should be cheaper than seated ones.... an argument with financial implication that I doubt RP and other clubs top bods would want to open.

Finally all seater has been a factor which has curtailed stadium misbehaviour. Far easier to throw a missile from a standing position than a seated one and it would be interesting to see if the recent upsurge in missile throwing down south is a result of a more relaxed attitude to standing in seated areas down there ? You only have to look at the antics of some of the pond life (ours included) before during and after games to see theres still potential for bother at the football... a reason why I think polis and authorities will be against any reintroduction of standing.

[sahib]

Finally all seater has been a factor which has curtailed stadium misbehaviour. Far easier to throw a missile from a standing position than a seated one and it would be interesting to see if the recent upsurge in missile throwing down south is a result of a more relaxed attitude to standing in seated areas down there ? You only have to look at the antics of some of the pond life (ours included) before during and after games to see theres still potential for bother at the football... a reason why I think polis and authorities will be against any reintroduction of standing.

I agree with all of this post but your final point is very important and was the main motivator behind seated stadia. However, to me designated standing areas are preferable to having arrogant, selfish gits standing and blocking the view of people who want to sit.

[blackpoolhibs]

I never thought I'd ever hear you say that. :greengrin

You'd be surprised, i agree with quite a lot of what you say Stevie. :greengrin

[Peevemor]

I don't think a standing area will increase attendances but it will give fans a choice.

I'm not sure. Before, occasional attenders could go to the odd match and stand beside their ST holding mates- now they risk to be stuck on their own 10 rows away which will be offputting for some. These same people are also more likely to stay at home than go to a match when the weather's "baltic" - it's easier to keep yourself warm when you're standing up.

[Waxy]

Do hope this happens as i miss standing.
Coudnt we fill out one of the corner between east and north with new terracing?

[StevieC]

Sadly it is. Been well quoted that the costs for the fold away seats are high which means its unlikely we will be tearing out seats in an existing stand and replacing them with the new type.

"At present, one rail seat costs 100 euros (£84), compared to around £30 for each plastic seat currently used at grounds".

This might have been a goer when we were building the East but too late now.

A season ticket in FF Lower is £60 cheaper than the East. Offer up standing area season tickets in the FF Lower at the same price as East (and sell the removed chairs at £15 each :wink: ).

If the club get sufficient uptake on season tickets for a standing area in April they could have a standing area in place in time for the new season. If they don't get sufficient interest then supporters have the option of a refund or a return to their original seat.

What's there to lose in at least trying? :dunno:

[StevieC]

You'd be surprised, i agree with quite a lot of what you say Stevie. :greengrin

Can I get you to speak my missus then, and try and get her to agree as well. :greengrin
It's like downtown Beirut these days.:duck:

[blackpoolhibs]

Can I get you to speak my missus then, and try and get her to agree as well. :greengrin
It's like downtown Beirut these days.:duck:

:greengrin

[Hibernia Na Eir]

bring it in Rodders!!!!