Is our academy working?

[big-mo]

At last night's AGM there was a a couple of things mentioned about our academy, RP stated that the club were seeking accreditation for the club's academy and that the club had rated it at level 4, (4 to 6, being elite level, 6 being almost unobtainable), external evaluation was based on facilities, quality of staff etc and the record of producing players to reach a standard.
One of the contributions from the floor questioned the number of players the club currently in the Scotland youth set-up, (none at the moment), Killie had 12 and even Hutchie' Vale had some.
Also in the year's figures for the first time in a number of years we did not have any players who realised a transfer fee. (Who in the current team, who has come through the ranks, would generate a meaningful transfer fee?).

Is there something wrong at the academy? Do we have the correct people in place? Are they more concerned in numbers rather than quality? (I have been told that they get paid by the SFA for every youngster that passes through the doors. Does anyone know of that is the case).




It is interesting to read the attached report on Youth Academies across Europe. I know we are not Arsenal or Barcelona but when you look at their youth set-up, it is far greater that any Scottish team's whole set-up.
Ajex has thirteen coaches and spend 6m Euro per year. Arsenal have 72 academy staff and it costs them 3m. Barca have 36 coaches and costs 10m, they also don't allow kids with tattoos, coloured hair, earring or shirts out of shorts.

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Global/Research/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies.pdf

[Haymaker]

The problem with youth academies is that youth development is always changing and you can look like you are in a dip for a while. This isnt helped when you have produced some real quality as we have in past decade - fans and coaches will be looking to tag any young player with "the new [insert name here]" instead of just letting the kids develop. Coaches especially can get caught up in the hysteria of "We must produce another [insert name]".

For Hibs to achieve a 4 star rating would be fantastic for the size of our club.

Also, I personally wouldnt put much into whether a player is in Scotland youths or schoolboys or whatever. Developed players in the Scotland national team yes but youth I wouldnt take much notice of.

[DaveF]

The problem with youth academies is that youth development is always changing and you can look like you are in a dip for a while. This isnt helped when you have produced some real quality as we have in past decade - fans and coaches will be looking to tag any young player with "the new [insert name here]" instead of just letting the kids develop. Coaches especially can get caught up in the hysteria of "We must produce another [insert name]".

For Hibs to achieve a 4 star rating would be fantastic for the size of our club.

Also, I personally wouldnt put much into whether a player is in Scotland youths or schoolboys or whatever. Developed players in the Scotland national team yes but youth I wouldnt take much notice of.

It would be interesting to see how many kids who played for Scotland Youth set up went onto make it in the pro game from say, the last 5 or 10 years. Does anyone know where you could get stats like that?

[Hibercelona]

Perhaps the training methods in the academy aren't as intensive as the old school methods we used to use?

Just a thought, but players just don't seem to have the same element of toughness about them as they used to.

[CentreLine]

The problem with youth academies is that youth development is always changing and you can look like you are in a dip for a while. This isnt helped when you have produced some real quality as we have in past decade - fans and coaches will be looking to tag any young player with "the new [insert name here]" instead of just letting the kids develop. Coaches especially can get caught up in the hysteria of "We must produce another [insert name]".

For Hibs to achieve a 4 star rating would be fantastic for the size of our club.

Also, I personally wouldnt put much into whether a player is in Scotland youths or schoolboys or whatever. Developed players in the Scotland national team yes but youth I wouldnt take much notice of.

Couldn't agree more. My son kept Kenny Miller out of the Scotland under 16 team a long time ago. But he didn't make the grade in the game despite being perfectly successful in his current job away from the game. However Kenny had a hugely successful football career. Boys football is just a stage in development and is not a crystal ball on the future.

[JIm]

I think from what i know of the academy they are going through alot of changes just now relating to the new club licencing criteria. More and more licenced coaches are now involved in the setup which can only benefit they players involved. As for the players its not overly important whether or not they are making international squads at this stage, most important thing is whether or not they can progress through to first team level.

Just to touch on Ajax - Success for Ajax is not deemed on how many trophies they win, it is based on how many players they can bring through their academy and sell on to top european leagues. They are currently sitting with nearly 70million pounds in their bank account and are not intending on spending this on signing players for the 1st team squad. The philosophy of Ajax is completely different to any in the UK outwith maybe one or two. It is actually quite difficult to get your head round as i know that if we were sitting in a similar financial position i'd expect it to be re-invested in to the 1st team squad. It just shows you that they have a proper understanding of where they are in comparison to the Spanish, English and German leagues.

Going back to our academy however i think it is certainly working just now. We just need to look at how many of the U20s are in and around the 1st team squad. Next stage is getting them playing regular first team football. I for one would be happy to sacrifice finishing top 3/4 this year if we were to give more of them an opportunity and provide them with vital game time. We all saw what happened under the golden generation of Brown, Thomson, Riordan etc - couple years learning the game and then they will take the league by storm.

[Purple & Green]

I heard a story that Hibs have a boy of 8 training with them just now. He also trains with Rangers, and Hibs told his father that if he stopped training with Rangers that they would commit to taking him on for the next 18 months.

I can't verify it's 100% true as it is second hand, but I'd be surprised if it's not true. I really hope it is untrue though...

I think the problem is not with the academy per se; it's what happens with progression and integration into the first team. Especially under Mixu, Yogi and Coco as progression just became non existent.

I think there are signs that PF gets it though; and already this season Ross Caldwell, Danny Handling, Alex Harris, Sam Stanton, Brad Donaldson, Scott Smith, Calum Antell & Dean Horribine involved with the first team and whilst not all have them have actually played they have been involved. That is a massive improvement on the last couple of years. I think at least one will be a first team regular before the end of the season.

Now, there's a possibility that the players haven't been good enough and that's why there has been no progression but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that if they aren't getting their chance.

I'd be interested to hear theories as to why there's so little Hibs representation at Scottish age group levels.

[Purple & Green]

It would be interesting to see how many kids who played for Scotland Youth set up went onto make it in the pro game from say, the last 5 or 10 years. Does anyone know where you could get stats like that?


It's not quite what you are asking for, but http://www.fitbastats.com/scotlandu21/player_list_filter.php?from=31&to=36&competition=0&update=Update shows all the players to have played for the Scottish Under 21s in the last 5 years. From memory of under 15/16 Squads I think somewhere less than a half go onto become professional.

[JIm]

Perhaps the training methods in the academy aren't as intensive as the old school methods we used to use?

Just a thought, but players just don't seem to have the same element of toughness about them as they used to.

Thankfully their not as intensive as the "old school methods" you refer to. I think its much more important that emphasis is based on ball mastery particularly at a young age.

What do you mean they don't hav ethe same element of toughness?:confused: Ross Caldwell, Hanlon, Wotherspoon plus many more that have made the first team all seam more than capabale phsyically. Yes it takes a couple of years to develop but thats all part of growing up.

[Haymaker]

Just to touch on Ajax - Success for Ajax is not deemed on how many trophies they win, it is based on how many players they can bring through their academy and sell on to top european leagues. They are currently sitting with nearly 70million pounds in their bank account and are not intending on spending this on signing players for the 1st team squad. The philosophy of Ajax is completely different to any in the UK outwith maybe one or two. It is actually quite difficult to get your head round as i know that if we were sitting in a similar financial position i'd expect it to be re-invested in to the 1st team squad. It just shows you that they have a proper understanding of where they are in comparison to the Spanish, English and German leagues.



Ajax can still compete at the top end of their league without investing that £70m yet. If they started to slip then that cash would be very, very handy!


I have met and worked with many youth coaches in several academies in England and all of them have said that their job is "seen as complete" if they get ONE player per year shirted. Not appearing, just numbered for the 1st team squad. That there is a massive attitude problem and is one of the key reasons players are lost to football.

[JIm]

Ajax can still compete at the top end of their league without investing that £70m yet. If they started to slip then that cash would be very, very handy!


I have met and worked with many youth coaches in several academies in England and all of them have said that their job is "seen as complete" if they get ONE player per year shirted. Not appearing, just numbered for the 1st team squad. That there is a massive attitude problem and is one of the key reasons players are lost to football.

So they are happy with players jst being named? Pretty poor. I think it comes down to culture and attitudes that we have within this country as you state.

As for the 70mill Ajax have they stated that their philosophy is to continue to bring the youth players through as opposed to signing big named players. They did have a number of years where they were not competing for the title but did not spend heavily and continued to focus on youth development. To say its been successful is an understatement. Also interesting that due to the high numbers of players that have came through the system their that many return to coach as they feel they need to give something back to the club.

[Since90+2]

Does anyone know what ratings other clubs in Scotland's academies have?

[Since90+2]

That report about the youth systems of the teams is fascinating.

Had a quick read through and for Barcelona it says their youth teams MUST play the 4-3-3 formation in matches and that no body strength work with weights is done on players prior to the age of 17.

For Ajax it says that 30% of all the players (not just for Ajax but the entire league) playing in the Eredivisie will have at one point been at the Ajax Academy.

Also had a look at the section on Hearts and its interesting to read that the first three traits they look for in players are physical prowess , fitness and aggression. When you compare it to Barca and the restriction on strength work until you are 17 really shows why Scottish football is going wrong. And this isnt a dig at Hearts specifically as it a nation wide problem.

[St.Kristopher]

Interesting that Hearts have a case study on Page 89 of the report. How do there numbers stack up against ours?

[JIm]

That report about the youth systems of the teams is fascinating.

Had a quick read through and for Barcelona it says their youth teams MUST play the 4-3-3 formation in matches and that no body strength work with weights is done on players prior to the age of 17.

For Ajax it says that 30% of all the players (not just for Ajax but the entire league) playing in the Eredivisie will have at one point been at the Ajax Academy.

Also had a look at the section on Hearts and its interesting to read that the first three traits they look for in players are physical prowess , fitness and aggression. When you compare it to Barca and the restriction on strength work until you are 17 really shows why Scottish football is going wrong. And this isnt a dig at Hearts specifically as it a nation wide problem.

Worth noting however that players will more than likely take part in strength and conditioning work without using weights. The focus on this will primarily be to teach technique so that when it comes to doing weight work they are in a position to do it properly.

[Haymaker]

Worth noting however that players will more than likely take part in strength and conditioning work without using weights. The focus on this will primarily be to teach technique so that when it comes to doing weight work they are in a position to do it properly.

:agree:

And yes, they are happy with players being named. One per season. And some of these guys work at EPL clubs.

[GreenArmy1875]

The problem aswell is our set up produces young players with the wrong attitude but ythink this is a problem all over scotland. I was involved in youth set ups and the guys that seem to cause problems seem to get kept on. It effects confidence of others of making it. I was at a 1st division club trying to win a pro contract and a boy in my team started a fight with one of the parents before the game and shoved and told the manager to f*** off but got played in that game because rangers were scouting him and would of made the club money. We seem to bring good players through in scotland with bad attitudes that dont improve. My dad raised a good point the other night regarding players like messi ones who can dribble past players for fun but we seem to knock that out of young players rather than exploiting it.

Maybe wrong place to post this rant

[JIm]

The problem aswell is our set up produces young players with the wrong attitude but ythink this is a problem all over scotland. I was involved in youth set ups and the guys that seem to cause problems seem to get kept on. It effects confidence of others of making it. I was at a 1st division club trying to win a pro contract and a boy in my team started a fight with one of the parents before the game and shoved and told the manager to f*** off but got played in that game because rangers were scouting him and would of made the club money. I have heard of this kind of behaviour at hibs youth too! We seem to bring good players through in scotland with bad attitudes that dont improve. My dad raised a good point the other night regarding players like messi ones who can dribble past players for fun but we seem to knock that out of young players rather than exploiting it.

Maybe wrong place to post this rant

I think its important that you watch what your saying to be honest. If your going to come out with accusations like that in bold then you really need to back it up with evidence and not hear say.

My experiences of the academy set up are extremely positive within Hibs especially in comparison to some others within the area.

[Hibby Bairn]

My son plays at a club in Edinburgh where at least half the boys have been scouted but none have gone. They are currently U11. I am amazed that no scout has ever been to a training session to watch the boys in that environment. That is where attitude to learning and attitude towards application will be seen. Also traits like leadership and discipline.

IMO these are the key attributes that make the difference later on especially in mid to late teens.

[Finbar]

The standard and the number of players coming out of the academy recently has been poor.

Everything that PF has done though, from squad selection to staff recruitment makes me think we'll see more good, young players in the team very soon.

[GreenArmy1875]

I think its important that you watch what your saying to be honest. If your going to come out with accusations like that in bold then you really need to back it up with evidence and not hear say.

My experiences of the academy set up are extremely positive within Hibs especially in comparison to some others within the area.

I mean like behaviour problems with youth players and them getting kept on not necessarily this type of behaviour or accusing hibs of keeping them to sell on.

[truehibernian]

The problem aswell is our set up produces young players with the wrong attitude but ythink this is a problem all over scotland. I was involved in youth set ups and the guys that seem to cause problems seem to get kept on. It effects confidence of others of making it. I was at a 1st division club trying to win a pro contract and a boy in my team started a fight with one of the parents before the game and shoved and told the manager to f*** off but got played in that game because rangers were scouting him and would of made the club money. I have heard of this kind of behaviour at hibs youth too! We seem to bring good players through in scotland with bad attitudes that dont improve. My dad raised a good point the other night regarding players like messi ones who can dribble past players for fun but we seem to knock that out of young players rather than exploiting it.

Maybe wrong place to post this rant

If any youth player associated with Hibernian behaved as you've suggested (your Rangers target story), I've got it on good authority they wouldn't cross the white lines and play - when have you heard instances of bad behaviour ?

I heard a story recently of a player starting a fight in a car park after a game, the team managed by an ex Hibs legend - he never kicked a ball for the club again and now plays in the Juniors. I've also been lucky enough to watch and learn from the coaches at the SFA Academies - and any kind of bad behaviour, and that includes in the communities they live, is simply not tolerated. The focus is not only on their football skills but how they live away from football - respect and discipline being key.

Having met a couple of the Hibs coaches I'd suggest you are very wrong regards Hibs.

[GreenArmy1875]

If any youth player associated with Hibernian behaved as you've suggested (your Rangers target story), I've got it on good authority they wouldn't cross the white lines and play - when have you heard instances of bad behaviour ?


I heard a story recently of a player starting a fight in a car park after a game, the team managed by an ex Hibs legend - he never kicked a ball for the club again and now plays in the Juniors. I've also been lucky enough to watch and learn from the coaches at the SFA Academies - and any kind of bad behaviour, and that includes in the communities they live, is simply not tolerated. The focus is not only on their football skills but how they live away from football - respect and discipline being key.

Having met a couple of the Hibs coaches I'd suggest you are very wrong regards Hibs.

I said above that not this kind of behaviour but I thought to my knowledge a few of our youth players have struggled with attitude even after breaking into the firs team. Think you guys need to calm down

[truehibernian]

I said above that not this kind of behaviour but I thought to my knowledge a few of our youth players have struggled with attitude even after breaking into the firs team. Think you guys need to calm down

You followed up your Rangers target story with immediately saying similar behaviour exists at Hibs - I was merely asking when and where you've heard of this ?

Senior players scrap regularly in the heat of training - I seem to recall being told of Ivan and Boozy having to be split up fighting before East Mains was built.

But your example was about youth players and attitude - I'd say to succeed in football you need skill obviously but also a touch of arrogance or real self belief - but if a young player assaulted a parent and told a coach to F off I'm certain he wouldn't feature until he was dealt with.

[jdships]

At last night's AGM there was a a couple of things mentioned about our academy, RP stated that the club were seeking accreditation for the club's academy and that the club had rated it at level 4, (4 to 6, being elite level, 6 being almost unobtainable), external evaluation was based on facilities, quality of staff etc and the record of producing players to reach a standard.
One of the contributions from the floor questioned the number of players the club currently in the Scotland youth set-up, (none at the moment), Killie had 12 and even Hutchie' Vale had some.
Also in the year's figures for the first time in a number of years we did not have any players who realised a transfer fee. (Who in the current team, who has come through the ranks, would generate a meaningful transfer fee?).

Is there something wrong at the academy? Do we have the correct people in place? Are they more concerned in numbers rather than quality? (I have been told that they get paid by the SFA for every youngster that passes through the doors. Does anyone know of that is the case).




It is interesting to read the attached report on Youth Academies across Europe. I know we are not Arsenal or Barcelona but when you look at their youth set-up, it is far greater that any Scottish team's whole set-up.
Ajex has thirteen coaches and spend 6m Euro per year. Arsenal have 72 academy staff and it costs them 3m. Barca have 36 coaches and costs 10m, they also don't allow kids with tattoos, coloured hair, earring or shirts out of shorts.

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Global/Research/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies.pdf



Appreciate this has been written about many times over the past few years but feel it is relevant to the question you ask

There is a massive gulf between being a 'promising 15 year old' a ' developing 18 year old ' and ' a 21 year old star'
There have been thousands of youngsters , over the years, who have fitted into the first two catagories.
Many a lad just does not develop as was expected . This is no fault of the person who signed him it is simply something that happens
I was one such who at 16 was ' promising ' and by my 19th birthday was told ' sorry you haven't developed the way we hoped '
A case of , as Lord Sugar says , ' YOUR FIRED '
Alex Miller told me , many a time that if he got two lads who made it past 21 out of twenty/twenty five who came in as 13/14 year old's he was happy !!!!
DAVE F sums it up perfectly for me
It would be interesting to see how many kids who played for Scotland Youth set up went onto make it in the pro game from say, the last 5 or 10 years. ?

[GreenArmy1875]

You followed up your Rangers target story with immediately saying similar behaviour exists at Hibs - I was merely asking when and where you've heard of this ?

Senior players scrap regularly in the heat of training - I seem to recall being told of Ivan and Boozy having to be split up fighting before East Mains was built.

But your example was about youth players and attitude - I'd say to succeed in football you need skill obviously but also a touch of arrogance or real self belief - but if a young player assaulted a parent and told a coach to F off I'm certain he wouldn't feature until he was dealt with.

Well my wording off my post was pretty bad so apologies on that. My post is more meaning that I have heard of stories that have happened at few of spl/sfl clubs that these guys with attitude are taken on rather than others. Before any jumps again I did not mean that to come across like hibs have the same thing

original post edited

[vanNISHtelroy]

One of the contributions from the floor questioned the number of players the club currently in the Scotland youth set-up, (none at the moment), Killie had 12 and even Hutchie' Vale had some.


That'll be nowt to do with our facilities! We don't have any of our own...Alan Robertson has done a great job with our youth teams for years.

[reversep]

Must be somewhat embarrassing for Hibs when a local juvenile club are deemed to have a better standard of player ( at least in the SFA,s eyes ).
I wonder how this will effect our grading , its been mentioned we are hoping to achieve Grade 4 Elite Status , yet the same people overlooking our young players will be the same people deciding the Grading.

[JIm]

Must be somewhat embarrassing for Hibs when a local juvenile club are deemed to have a better standard of player ( at least in the SFA,s eyes ).
I wonder how this will effect our grading , its been mentioned we are hoping to achieve Grade 4 Elite Status , yet the same people overlooking our young players will be the same people deciding the Grading.

Did you consider that players may not be ready/nor want to move on at certain stages of their development? It may be any number of circumstances to the school they attend, where they live, parents not being able to travel etc.

I think in time the players/parents you are referring to at Hutchie/Tynecastle etc will realise that they have to make the jump to continue to progress. I certainly do not think it will impact upon the grading that the academy is awarded.

[Speedy]

Did you consider that players may not be ready/nor want to move on at certain stages of their development? It may be any number of circumstances to the school they attend, where they live, parents not being able to travel etc.

I think in time the players/parents you are referring to at Hutchie/Tynecastle etc will realise that they have to make the jump to continue to progress. I certainly do not think it will impact upon the grading that the academy is awarded.

Are you still barred from playing for your school when playing for hibs (or hearts or whoever)?

[Haymaker]

Are you still barred from playing for your school when playing for hibs (or hearts or whoever)?

I think so, you're barred from representing Scotland at Schoolboys if you are at hibs/hearts etc.

[edinburghhibee]

I think so, you're barred from representing Scotland at Schoolboys if you are at hibs/hearts etc.

This was certainly the case when I was at school, I got round it by playing in goals under a different name... Moral of the story cheaters never become anything :(

[Haymaker]

Must be somewhat embarrassing for Hibs when a local juvenile club are deemed to have a better standard of player ( at least in the SFA,s eyes ).
I wonder how this will effect our grading , its been mentioned we are hoping to achieve Grade 4 Elite Status , yet the same people overlooking our young players will be the same people deciding the Grading.

I doubt they even care to be honest, Scotland youth games will just take the players away from the academy and interrupt their training schedule. And as has been said before on this thread, it doesnt matter in the end how many youth caps a player received, it isnt a mark of guarenteed success nor is being at an academy in the first place.

[Devilstorment]

I think that we have been somewhat spoiled with the level of talent that came out of our academy all at the same time I.E. Riordan, Brown, Thomson, O'Connor, Whittaker and latterly Fletcher. To have had all these players come to fruition at the roughly the same time and all be Scotland national team calibre is very, very rare! (i would say almost impossible!)

I think we as Hibs fans are a bit guilty of expecting too much from our academy. Every young boy that comes through and starts to knock on the door of the first team, instantly has a higher level of expectation on them. Often I hear in the stands at ER and on this that we shouldnt be wasting out time on playing older players (sproule, kuqi) and that we should be giving the young lads a chance, It may be that Pat knows that the youngsters arent totally up to scratch yet and to drop them in to early can set their development back. IMO