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hibee92
20-11-2012, 10:23 AM
http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20121120/club-update_2262950_2985856

NYHibby
20-11-2012, 10:29 AM
The AGM is on 10 December at 19:00.

That is good timing for me. I get back from Germany the night before and leave on Friday morning to go to America for a month. I was expecting to miss the AGM.

hibs0666
20-11-2012, 10:30 AM
Goes to show both that the club does not have a pot to piss in, and the importance of reaching the cup final in maintaining the level of income.

1875HFC
20-11-2012, 10:33 AM
pretty poor financial year to be expected from the footballing season we had last year but we have opportunity to turn it around this year.

Need all those who can afford to buy half season tickets and merchandise to do so.

In the grand scheme of things could be alot worse, not many businesses are making huge profit at the moment, think the tache has it all under control :agree:

:flag:

Sergey
20-11-2012, 10:34 AM
The AGM is on 10 December at 19:00.

That is good timing for me. I get back from Germany the night before and leave on Friday morning to go to America for a month. I was expecting to miss the AGM.

How often do these things take place?

CropleyWasGod
20-11-2012, 10:34 AM
How often do these things take place?

Um... the clue is in the word "Annual".... :greengrin

1875HFC
20-11-2012, 10:35 AM
How often do these things take place?


"Annual General Meeting" might provide some clues...:na na:

NYHibby
20-11-2012, 10:35 AM
How often do these things take place?

Annually, hence the name

Am I missing the joke?

PatHead
20-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Think you two have just experienced a whoosh moment

CropleyWasGod
20-11-2012, 10:37 AM
Think you two have just experienced a whoosh moment

I'm sorry, I'm just not used to journalists asking incisive questions..... :greengrin

Pretty Boy
20-11-2012, 10:43 AM
Actually better than i thought if I'm honest.

Hopefully this year sees improvement with a better league position, another good SC run and not having to spend a small fortune paying people who are no longer required by the club or paying off their contracts.

Mikey
20-11-2012, 10:46 AM
pretty poor financial year to be expected from the footballing season we had last year but we have opportunity to turn it around this year.

Need all those who can afford to buy half season tickets and merchandise to do so.

In the grand scheme of things could be alot worse, not many businesses are making huge profit at the moment, think the tache has it all under control :agree:

:flag:

:agree:

Ozyhibby
20-11-2012, 10:50 AM
Could have been a lot worse. Debt of £6.4m is manageable. Hopefully improved performances on the pitch can bring back the fans to Easter Road.

JimBHibees
20-11-2012, 10:52 AM
Given how horrific the season actually was it no doubt could have been worse though the final was an unexpected boost, game apart.

brog
20-11-2012, 10:52 AM
Goes to show both that the club does not have a pot to piss in, and the importance of reaching the cup final in maintaining the level of income.

I agree your point re the Cup Final but I'm sitting with the a/c's in front of me & i believe our club is inherently healthy. Certainly I think we're in a far better financial position than our rivals in SPL with possible exception of Celtc. The detail does however confirm to me the importance of having a strong team on the park as well as sound economics & great infrastructure off the park. After finishing 4th in 09/10 we've finished 10th & 11th last 2 seasons. That means we lost approx £1mm in revenue from SPL over these 2 seasons, to put that in perspective that's approx 3,000 season tickets. It's undoubtedly a real dilemma with regard to spend & performance but as I posted on another thread we have a real opportunity this year to finish in top 3 & earn a major windfall while hopefully gates will also continue to improve to match our performances.

hibbysam
20-11-2012, 10:52 AM
Can we also remember that this includes the paying off of Colin Calderwood, had we accepted the offer for him in the summer things would have looked a whole lot better than they do.. We also had to pay off a lot of players to get rid and we will also have Osbourne money included in next years accounts :agree:

To think we lost less than a million pound with horrendous crowds averaging about 8500 which is now up to over 10000, paying off Calderwood, and many of his duds as well as getting big earners such as GOC off the wage bill I can only see our balance sheet getting so much better!

Also a full house vs Hearts & Celtic as well as crowds just going up and up we should be able to get LG in without damaging our balance sheet too much!

euansdad
20-11-2012, 10:55 AM
Not to bad but hope that debt doesn't get any worse

Fat Penlon
20-11-2012, 10:58 AM
Could have been a lot worse. Debt of £6.4m is manageable. Hopefully improved performances on the pitch can bring back the fans to Easter Road.

How much of this is due to Tom Farmer? If any of it then why doesnt he just right it off as an investment to help his team? After all it was his board who appointed the managers that created the mess of the last 2 to 3 years (or more!).

Part/Time Supporter
20-11-2012, 10:58 AM
It's a bit better than I thought it would be. The cup run largely offset the decrease in attendance (static turnover). Wage costs were quite low, given the change of manager and the addition of several players (mostly on loan) in January. I think they will be lower again this year because (hopefully) there won't be a change of manager and there isn't as much dead wood in the squad IMO.

ancienthibby
20-11-2012, 11:00 AM
Could have been a lot worse. Debt of £6.4m is manageable. Hopefully improved performances on the pitch can bring back the fans to Easter Road.

Except it's not!!

The statement says the £6.4m is Net Debt, meaning that cash in the bank is netted-off against Gross Debt.

The Cash in the bank will be Season ticket sales purchased by 31 July, so I'd imagine the Net Debt may be adjusted upwards by up to £2 million.

Changes the analysis quite a bit when Gross Debt is more than turnover!!

jonny
20-11-2012, 11:04 AM
Could someone with accounts give a breakdown of what the actual debts are.. i.e bank loans, mortgages etc...
That would probably give a fairer idea of where we're at. There's a big difference being 6 million in debt if it's in mortgages that are paid on a monthly basis and are generally being reduced as opposed to being 6 million in debt due to unpaid credit accounts / tax bills

Part/Time Supporter
20-11-2012, 11:04 AM
How much of this is due to Tom Farmer? If any of it then why doesnt he just right it off as an investment to help his team? After all it was his board who appointed the managers that created the mess of the last 2 to 3 years (or more!).

By that logic, would it be fair for Farmer to take a cheeky wee dividend when his board gets something right?

Phil MaGlass
20-11-2012, 11:06 AM
:greengrinsimple pay the 150k for Leigh sell him for a couple of million and bobs yir uncle 30% debt gone.

Ozyhibby
20-11-2012, 11:07 AM
Except it's not!!

The statement says the £6.4m is Net Debt, meaning that cash in the bank is netted-off against Gross Debt.

The Cash in the bank will be Season ticket sales purchased by 31 July, so I'd imagine the Net Debt may be adjusted upwards by up to £2 million.

Changes the analysis quite a bit when Gross Debt is more than turnover!!

Fair enough, was only going by the figures as presented. It's clear that we need to return to profit quickly in order to reduce the debt and that it would also help if East Mains could produce a player of saleable value.
Still think that the figures are not as bad as they could have been.

Part/Time Supporter
20-11-2012, 11:08 AM
Could someone with accounts give a breakdown of what the actual debts are.. i.e bank loans, mortgages etc...
That would probably give a fairer idea of where we're at. There's a big difference being 6 million in debt if it's in mortgages that are paid on a monthly basis and are generally being reduced as opposed to being 6 million in debt due to unpaid credit accounts / tax bills

£6.5 million is in two mortgages, which aren't due for repayment until at least 2020 IIRC. Those were taken out when Hibs built the West Stand; the East Stand was funded by using the cash balance built up by selling players. Last year there was also a £1.5 million loan from the holding company, which is funds from Farmer. Gross debt will be about £8 million, with about £1.5 million sitting as cash at the year end date (season ticket sales). £8 million gross debt - £1.5 million cash = £6.5 million "net debt".

Before anyone asks, that does not mean that Hibs have £1.5 million sitting there now. Normal football clubs (ie anyone except Hearts) take their season ticket money in and build up a cash balance during the summer, then use that for their running costs during the season.

blackpoolhibs
20-11-2012, 11:09 AM
still not great, but much better than I thought they'd be.

TrinityHibs
20-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Can we also remember that this includes the paying off of Colin Calderwood, had we accepted the offer for him in the summer things would have looked a whole lot better than they do.. We also had to pay off a lot of players to get rid and we will also have Osbourne money included in next years accounts :agree:

To think we lost less than a million pound with horrendous crowds averaging about 8500 which is now up to over 10000, paying off Calderwood, and many of his duds as well as getting big earners such as GOC off the wage bill I can only see our balance sheet getting so much better!

Also a full house vs Hearts & Celtic as well as crowds just going up and up we should be able to get LG in without damaging our balance sheet too much!

Average league attendance last season was 9909. The season before we averaged 11,673. This year we have averaged 10,468 to date although the figures are on the up. This seasons figure will be skewed as we are missing 2 games with Sevco and had a relatively poor first derby of the season due to the cup final hangover.

We are in a better place this year and hopefully can get a another cup run this year by launching the beggars in a fortnight.

HibbyRod
20-11-2012, 11:12 AM
£6.5 million is in two mortgages, which aren't due for repayment until at least 2020 IIRC. Last year there was also a £1.5 million loan from the holding company (funding from Farmer). Gross debt will be about £8 million, with about £1.5 million sitting as cash at the year end date (season ticket sales). £8 million gross debt - £1.5 million cash = £6.5 million "net debt".

Before anyone asks, that does not mean that Hibs have £1.5 million sitting there now. Normal football clubs (ie anyone except Hearts) take their season ticket money in and build up a cash balance during the summer, then use that for their running costs during the season.

And presently (or at 31st July) our overall net worth on the balance sheet is c.£13.4 Million ..... is this correct?

Wembley67
20-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Um... the clue is in the word "Annual".... :greengrin

Agms actually do not have to take place one a year!

Part/Time Supporter
20-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Average league attendance last season was 9909. The season before we averaged 11,673. This year we have averaged 10,468 to date although the figures are on the up. This seasons figure will be skewed as we are missing 2 games with Sevco and had a relatively poor first derby of the season due to the cup final hangover.

We are in a better place this year and hopefully can get a another cup run this year by launching the beggars in a fortnight.

The average was nearer 9500 until it was dragged up by that decider game against Dunfermline, which was a bit of a one-off.

ancienthibby
20-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Could someone with accounts give a breakdown of what the actual debts are.. i.e bank loans, mortgages etc...
That would probably give a fairer idea of where we're at. There's a big difference being 6 million in debt if it's in mortgages that are paid on a monthly basis and are generally being reduced as opposed to being 6 million in debt due to unpaid credit accounts / tax bills

The Accounts have yet to arrive at the Ancient Castle, but I will post as soon as they do.

Meantime, be assured that the Gross Debt is composed of Long-term Stadium mortgages and short-term loans, provided by one of STF's companies. The first item will probably account for 75% of all debt.

It is Hibs fine practice to keep all creditor and tax payments up-to-date.:greengrin

Part/Time Supporter
20-11-2012, 11:14 AM
And presently (or at 31st July) our overall net worth on the balance sheet is c.£13.4 Million ..... is this correct?

That figure is the balance sheet value of Hibs' physical assets - the stadium and training ground - less the net debt amount. As Hibs aren't planning to sell either of those, it doesn't really mean anything. For example, the old Rangers company had a massive net worth figure in their last balance sheet, because they valued Ibrox at something crazy like £100 million.

The_Sauz
20-11-2012, 11:18 AM
Will be the headline in west coast media :agree:

lucky
20-11-2012, 11:19 AM
This shows how difficult it is to run a football club. Balancing the books with expectations of supporters. Many teams have have speculated to accumulate and have crashed and burned. For me, steady progress under Pat over a few season will see us finally get the balance right. I think we will have another few seasons of modest investment in the team, with slow progress. But one thing is for sure we should not spend money we don't have on players and wages. Ideally we will find another 3/4 players we can sell on for a few million from our youth teams. As supporters we have to manage our expectations or the club will take forever to get back into profit and finally have a few quid to invest

1875HFC
20-11-2012, 11:33 AM
http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC005323

This is Hibs Key Financial Information from last year, shows cash at bank and basic information.

click the "key financials" tab to take a look

EuanH78
20-11-2012, 11:35 AM
I might have missed it before but its encouraging to see a breakdown of how the team performed in the KPI section at the bottom along with the financial results - I think its inclusion in the 'Key Performance Indicators' section speaks volumes IMO.

matty_f
20-11-2012, 11:36 AM
Could have been a lot worse, the club have done very well to manage the staff costs to 60% of turnover, particularly against the backdrop of poor performance.

We can't carry on having losses, but I'd think we'll be much better off this season.

Shows you that the club remain dependant on us supporters dipping our hands in our pockets and spending money there.

And it's certainly nowhere near as bad as the Yams were creaming their pants hoping it would be.

jonny
20-11-2012, 11:40 AM
£6.5 million is in two mortgages, which aren't due for repayment until at least 2020 IIRC. Those were taken out when Hibs built the West Stand; the East Stand was funded by using the cash balance built up by selling players. Last year there was also a £1.5 million loan from the holding company, which is funds from Farmer. Gross debt will be about £8 million, with about £1.5 million sitting as cash at the year end date (season ticket sales). £8 million gross debt - £1.5 million cash = £6.5 million "net debt".

Before anyone asks, that does not mean that Hibs have £1.5 million sitting there now. Normal football clubs (ie anyone except Hearts) take their season ticket money in and build up a cash balance during the summer, then use that for their running costs during the season.

This makes sense, do you know if the mortgages are paid for in a capital and interest manner so the value of the debt reduces year on year or if they are interest only with a £6.5million balance being due in 2020?
Do you know what the loan from farmer was for? Was it contingency or did we have a real cash flow problem at some point?

LancashireHibby
20-11-2012, 11:41 AM
To lose less than £1m in the environment of people struggling for cash and the like and in our worst season for years is pretty good going IMHO, although admittedly the cash made from the cup final will have helped towards that.

The reduction in the wages-turnover ratio deserves headlining though, especially with the UEFA Fair Play rules and the like.

NYHibby
20-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Changes the analysis quite a bit when Gross Debt is more than turnover!!

No it doesn't. You are wrong on this point. Gross debt to turnover is not a particularly useful measure. There are plenty of financially sustainable businesses whose gross debt exceeds their turnover. Water companies for example. No one is suggesting that your water company will fail soon.

I think you may be trying to imply that Hibs are highly levered which is not the case.

ancienthibby
20-11-2012, 11:53 AM
The Annual Accounts have just arrived at the Ancient Castle.

Here are some answers to questions asked above:

Cash at Bank was £999k, down from £2,048k last year;

One mortgage payment of £240k paid;

Second mortgage payment of £367k paid;

Interest costs amounted to £151k;

Parent company loan and intercompany loans unchanged at £250k and £1,250k;

Big reduction in Board costs down from £408k to £292k. .

Staff numbers players and management fell from 71 to 64;

Commercial and admin staff fell from 31 to 26.

Hope this helps.

hibbysam
20-11-2012, 11:55 AM
Average league attendance last season was 9909. The season before we averaged 11,673. This year we have averaged 10,468 to date although the figures are on the up. This seasons figure will be skewed as we are missing 2 games with Sevco and had a relatively poor first derby of the season due to the cup final hangover.

We are in a better place this year and hopefully can get a another cup run this year by launching the beggars in a fortnight.

9909.. With one cup tie vs Kilmarnock? along the way..

This season is over 10,000 after just 7 games.. And only heading in one direction, and with a huge crowd expected for the Derby cup tie will boost our funds even more for this season!

We will also have two more games vs Celtic the way things are going so 3/4 more Cat A games, 1/2 season tickets expected to go well and walk ups will steadily rise, our average for this season will be up at about 11,000 for the season, a 1.5k rise in attendances averaging £20 is £30k per game and about £550k for the season, If we manage to get 2nd place there is a massive leap in TV prize money at the end of the year so your potentially looking at £1m more than last year on those two things alone!

All in my opinion likes.

johncrobertson@
20-11-2012, 11:55 AM
Would the transfer fee for Osbourne and the sell on clause for Bamba come into next years figures?

NYHibby
20-11-2012, 11:56 AM
This makes sense, do you know if the mortgages are paid for in a capital and interest manner so the value of the debt reduces year on year or if they are interest only with a £6.5million balance being due in 2020?

This, along with information on all our debt, is in last year's accounts which are available in this site's vault.

From memory, we are not currently paying capital on the one loan. That's not to say we will need to find the cash to pay it all at once. I would imagine we would just refinance it.

worcesterhibby
20-11-2012, 11:57 AM
Agms actually do not have to take place one a year!

Yes they do, if there is another such meeting held it is described as an EGM or Emergency General Meeting, not an AGM. :na na:

RSS Bot
20-11-2012, 12:00 PM
HIBS chairman Rod Petrie today issued a “call to arms” to lapsed supporters after the club posted a financial loss for the second year running.




More... (http://www.scotsman.com/hibs-chairman-rod-petrie-calls-for-fans-to-return-to-easter-road-1-2646198)

Mikey
20-11-2012, 12:02 PM
It's time to come back and be a part of it :agree:

ancienthibby
20-11-2012, 12:02 PM
No it doesn't. You are wrong on this point. Gross debt to turnover is not a particularly useful measure. There are plenty of financially sustainable businesses whose gross debt exceeds their turnover. Water companies for example. No one is suggesting that your water company will fail soon.

I think you may be trying to imply that Hibs are highly levered which is not the case.

Disagree.

Hibs cash flow, before and after financing, is negative. The operating position does not provide sufficient cash flow to pay financing costs.

I'll stick to my view.:greengrin

NYHibby
20-11-2012, 12:02 PM
Yes they do, if there is another such meeting held it is described as an EGM or Emergency General Meeting, not an AGM. :na na:

Extraordinary. Close enough

Wembley67
20-11-2012, 12:08 PM
Yes they do, if there is another such meeting held it is described as an EGM or Emergency General Meeting, not an AGM. :na na:

Not in a calendar year they don't..an AGM could be held 6 months or 18 months after the previous :na na:

Oh and the EGM could also be classed as SGM (special), OGM (ordinary) or CGM (Court/Class) :greengrin

NYHibby
20-11-2012, 12:09 PM
Disagree.

Hibs cash flow, before and after financing, is negative. The operating position does not provide sufficient cash flow to pay financing costs.

I'll stick to my view.:greengrin

You are not arriving at that conclusion from gross debt to turnover though. Nothing in your post suggests that gross debt to turnover is a significant measure.

I am being nit picky.

Golden Bear
20-11-2012, 12:12 PM
It's time to come back and be a part of it :agree:

I agree - but so much of that depends on the performance of the team.

A sustained run of form will gradually bring the missing fans back but that's easier said than done.

.Sean.
20-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Can someone please copy and paste the article for us on mobile please?

euansdad
20-11-2012, 12:14 PM
True but I think this side has shown the necessary fight so far this season and deserve more backing

marinello59
20-11-2012, 12:15 PM
The team are doing their bit. It's all good fun laughing at the Yams rallying around their team but OUR team needs us.

ano hibby
20-11-2012, 12:20 PM
article in full:

HIBS chairman Rod Petrie today issued a “call to arms” to lapsed supporters after the club posted a financial loss for the second year running.
Turnover for the year 2011/12 (31 July-31 July) was £6.9m (down £0.1m), while the loss before taxation was unchanged from the previous year at £0.9m.
The figures relate to a season when Hibs battled relegation for the second year running, while also changing manager again, with Pat Fenlon replacing Colin Calderwood. There were no notable player sales, although the run to the Scottish Cup final did help boost the club’s finances (http://www.hibs.net/#). Club chiefs, however, are far from alarmed by the club’s overall financial predicament, and Petrie insisted that, if Hibs could get their average attendances back up to the 12,000 mark, they would be in a strong position to prosper at a time when many clubs in Scottish football are battling to make ends meet.
Already buoyed by an excellent start to the current season under Fenlon, which has seen crowds at Easter Road creep back up above the 10,000 mark, Petrie senses the club are heading in the right direction again.
However, with gate money considered the biggest factor in determining the club’s annual budget, Hibs revealed a desire to grow attendances by around 2000 per home game from present levels.
“Every season we need the positive engagement and financial contribution by supporters to provide an annual budget,” said Petrie in a letter to shareholders. “That was hard during 2011-12 and the financial statements show that the club sustained a bottom line loss for the year for only the second time in eight years. Trading income benefitted from the club’s run to the Scottish Cup final. That augmented the lower levels of income from a second poor season of playing performances (http://www.hibs.net/#).
“The club apologised to supporters for the manner of the defeat in the Scottish Cup Final in May. The luck of the draw means that we have the chance to avenge that defeat in our first tie in the Scottish Cup this season. Performances on the pitch have improved dramatically following the major overhaul of the playing squad by the manager in the close season. Better performances have seen a steady rise in SPL attendances at Easter Road Stadium. Each game has seen more
Hibernian supporters attend the match than attended the previous match. Just over 10,000 Hibernian supporters attended the last home (http://www.hibs.net/#) game against Dundee United. We want to continue that progression and get back to average attendances of over 12,000 spectators.
“More gate income means more flexibility for the manager as he continues to re-vitalise our club. Please do what you can, if you can, to help rebuild attendances.”
Among the other notable figures, Hibs’ staff costs were reduced by £0.7m to £4.1m. This resulted in a wages-to-turnover ratio of 60 per cent, down from 69 per cent for the previous year.
The club’s debt, which has increased from £5.9m to just over six million, is described as “long-term” and “structured” and is causing no concern for the Hibs board. All shareholders were today due to receive a copy of the full financial results ahead of the club’s AGM on December 10

JIm
20-11-2012, 12:21 PM
Can someone please copy and paste the article for us on mobile please?

Nut. Do one.

1875HFC
20-11-2012, 12:21 PM
I agree - but so much of that depends on the performance of the team.

A sustained run of form will gradually bring the missing fans back but that's easier said than done.

What happened to through thick and thin? the club will never prosper if folk only turn up when we are on a winning streak, the supporters need to support the club permanently

DarrenSQH
20-11-2012, 12:24 PM
Imagine how big the losses would have been without the cup final.

c31
20-11-2012, 12:25 PM
If we will the cup tie I'm sure some demons will laid and some will return, if not I think some will be lost forever.

Winning this cup tie is very very important to Hibs..

JIm
20-11-2012, 12:27 PM
Imagine how big the losses would have been without the cup final.

Thats one spin you can put on it.

Also if we hadn't had to pay Coco the clown off..............

Lots of different factors to take in to account.

Pretty Boy
20-11-2012, 12:28 PM
I'm dragging a couple along in Saturday and to the Hearts game who haven't been since the cup final.

Agree with the poster above, the cup game against Hearts is massive. We lose that and a few fans could well drift back into apathy.

gogse
20-11-2012, 12:33 PM
The team are doing their bit. It's all good fun laughing at the Yams rallying around their team but OUR team needs us.

:top marks

Gatecrasher
20-11-2012, 12:38 PM
I agree - but so much of that depends on the performance of the team.

A sustained run of form will gradually bring the missing fans back but that's easier said than done.
how long is a sustained run? unbeaton at home and a couple of points off top in November is practically unheard of from us. It's time for the fans to stop making excuses and come back IMO

matty_f
20-11-2012, 12:38 PM
12,000 is the target then - if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Let's fill the place! :thumbsup:

greenginger
20-11-2012, 12:38 PM
http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC005323

This is Hibs Key Financial Information from last year, shows cash at bank and basic information.

click the "key financials" tab to take a look


I used your site to key in Heart of Midlothian PLC. ----- Cash at bank £ 65,000 ! :greengrin and the Yams point fingers at us.

IanM
20-11-2012, 12:39 PM
7 of us bought tickets for the derby cup game and a few of us going back on saturday..
we were ST holders last year but was a kick in the teeth.. time to do our bit though

Golden Bear
20-11-2012, 12:41 PM
What happened to through thick and thin? the club will never prosper if folk only turn up when we are on a winning streak, the supporters need to support the club permanently

I agree - but it's a fact of life.

Some fans will need a lot more convincing than others to part with their hard earned cash and only a sustained run of form will fully convince them.

Fans are fickle and it's a lot easier to follow a successful entertaining team than a team which struggles from week to week.They actually want to enjoy the matchday experience after all.

hibs0666
20-11-2012, 12:42 PM
Except it's not!!

The statement says the £6.4m is Net Debt, meaning that cash in the bank is netted-off against Gross Debt.

The Cash in the bank will be Season ticket sales purchased by 31 July, so I'd imagine the Net Debt may be adjusted upwards by up to £2 million.

Changes the analysis quite a bit when Gross Debt is more than turnover!!

Not this again. Like all accounting information It's a snapshot figure at a given point in time, and the important thing is how it is changing from year to year.

worcesterhibby
20-11-2012, 12:44 PM
Not in a calendar year they don't..an AGM could be held 6 months or 18 months after the previous :na na:

Oh and the EGM could also be classed as SGM (special), OGM (ordinary) or CGM (Court/Class) :greengrin

You win, you're knowledge of boring stuff that doesn't make you attractive to girls far exceeds mine ! :devil: (see what I did there !)

greenginger
20-11-2012, 12:45 PM
Disagree.

Hibs cash flow, before and after financing, is negative. The operating position does not provide sufficient cash flow to pay financing costs.

I'll stick to my view.:greengrin

Yes, but costs can be lowered very easily at a Football Club , unlike other businesses which require a set number of operatives at set wages in order to function.

Danger of course is lowering the expenditure is liable to lower the cash flow.

Speedway
20-11-2012, 12:45 PM
So what's all this about Morston Securities then?...etc

matty_f
20-11-2012, 12:45 PM
how long is a sustained run? unbeaton at home and a couple of points off top in November is practically unheard of from us. It's time for the fans to stop making excuses and come back IMO

:top marks

KeithTheHibby
20-11-2012, 12:49 PM
Fair enough, was only going by the figures as presented. It's clear that we need to return to profit quickly in order to reduce the debt and that it would also help if East Mains could produce a player of saleable value.
Still think that the figures are not as bad as they could have been.

The training centre is only as good as the structure in place and the staff running it.

I reckon that has been the problem in the past.

Golden Bear
20-11-2012, 12:50 PM
how long is a sustained run? unbeaton at home and a couple of points off top in November is practically unheard of from us. It's time for the fans to stop making excuses and come back IMO

Again I agree but I bet each and every one of us know supporters who like to talk about "the Hibs" but show very little interest in actually attending the games.

They've lost the "matchday habit" and therein lies the route of the problem.

Speedway
20-11-2012, 12:51 PM
When the board has been slashed and the staff have been slashed and nearly three quarters of a million has been dropped from the payroll, it makes Fenlon and Rod look even better than they did.

Now, that's £1.8 million we've lost in two years, who do you think has funded that, the bank?

Alfred E Newman
20-11-2012, 12:53 PM
What happened to through thick and thin? the club will never prosper if folk only turn up when we are on a winning streak, the supporters need to support the club permanently
to
Given the dross served up last season culminating in the Cup Final debacle, it is nothing short of remarkable that there was an increase in season ticket sales this season . Attendances are increasing as well week by week and will continue to rise if the team continues to improve. I know the club have made a loss, but they should be putting a better spin on it.

Ozyhibby
20-11-2012, 12:55 PM
I had thought these figures were not to bad until I read the thread on Kickback about our accounts. It appears we are goosed and will be lucky to survive till Xmas. I'm off the slit my wrists.

cabbageandribs1875
20-11-2012, 12:57 PM
so, have we all to start baking cakes/auctioning faded/worn players shirts etc etc...or what :confused:



we need to know

johncrobertson@
20-11-2012, 01:00 PM
Maybe Wonga can give a loan! If not we are doomed!!!

matty_f
20-11-2012, 01:05 PM
I had thought these figures were not to bad until I read the thread on Kickback about our accounts. It appears we are goosed and will be lucky to survive till Xmas. I'm off the slit my wrists.

In their wildest, wettest dreams.


Their grandchildren will be Hibbies.

Mikey
20-11-2012, 01:09 PM
In their wildest, wettest dreams.


Their grandchildren will be Hibbies.

Yep to both.

The simple answer to Yam taxi drivers who have stories to tell is "No, Hibs aren't going bust, Hearts are. Shut up and drive".

Billy Whizz
20-11-2012, 01:10 PM
Does anyone know if we got any money from the Fletcher sale to Sunderland. There were a few rumours around at the time that we did.
As this was in August, it would appear in this year's accounts

Ryan91
20-11-2012, 01:12 PM
I used your site to key in Heart of Midlothian PLC. ----- Cash at bank £ 65,000 ! :greengrin and the Yams point fingers at us.

Heart of Midlothian PLC Net Worth: £ -14,165,000
The Hibernian Football Club Ltd. Net Worth: £ 14,148,183

That makes for very nice reading.

Ryan91
20-11-2012, 01:13 PM
Does anyone know if we got any money from the Fletcher sale to Sunderland. There were a few rumours around at the time that we did.
As this was in August, it would appear in this year's accounts

Don't think so, only had a sell on fee clause for his original transfer away from Hibs.

euansdad
20-11-2012, 01:13 PM
We are a well supported club so the potential is there. Just hope the improved results have struck a cord with some

offshorehibby
20-11-2012, 01:20 PM
There's a thread on on here about getting Griffiths signed up ASAP. We can't do that unless we get a few more bums on seats. There is a marked improvement in the team this season but this is early doors in the road to recovery.

LeighLoyal
20-11-2012, 01:24 PM
I've been doing my bit, only missed a couple of home games of late. The damage done over the past 3 or 4 years won't easily be turned around, but I was impressed by the Sheep turnout on Saturday. If they can do it...

Ozyhibby
20-11-2012, 01:28 PM
I've been doing my bit, only missed a couple of home games of late. The damage done over the past 3 or 4 years won't easily be turned around, but I was impressed by the Sheep turnout on Saturday. If they can do it...

The sheep can do it because they are the only team in Aberdeen. We might have to wait a few weeks before we are the only team in Edinburgh.

Jack
20-11-2012, 01:28 PM
How much of this is due to Tom Farmer? If any of it then why doesnt he just right it off as an investment to help his team? After all it was his board who appointed the managers that created the mess of the last 2 to 3 years (or more!).

How old are you? How long have you been a Hibby? :wink:

I'll thank him for his work, but ...
Since your birth and my birth - its not going to happen. How many times do folk need to be told? :rolleyes:

jane_says
20-11-2012, 01:30 PM
how long is a sustained run? unbeaton at home and a couple of points off top in November is practically unheard of from us. It's time for the fans to stop making excuses and come back IMO

Could not agree more with this.

It seems people are just looking for an excuse. 'I'll come back if we sign McPake permanently' 'I'll only come back if Rangers are put into the third division'
'I'll only come back when Hibs start winning games regularly'
Well all 3 of these have happened and still folk are coming out with the age old excuses. Get back and support the team and we can make this club stronger than ever.

SlickShoes
20-11-2012, 01:30 PM
Just bought two half season tickets yesterday, will be back from boxing day onward!

scoopyboy
20-11-2012, 01:33 PM
so, have we all to start baking cakes/auctioning faded/worn players shirts etc etc...or what :confused:



we need to know

Just keep selling the pegs mate and we will be fine.

jacomo
20-11-2012, 01:39 PM
Imagine how big the losses would have been without the cup final.


Thats one spin you can put on it.

Also if we hadn't had to pay Coco the clown off..............

Lots of different factors to take in to account.

We all know that Calderwood should have been allowed to join Brum that summer instead of us having to pay him off in the autumn. This cost the club perhaps as much as £500k and the Board are totally to blame for that one.

What's scary is that turnover fell slightly even with the Cup Final run... Without it the income would have been well down.

Hibs have paid very heavily for a few years of mismanagement and underachievement. Hopefully such mistakes will be learnt from and won't happen again.

bingo70
20-11-2012, 01:40 PM
When criticizing the support this season its maybe worth remembering just how pish the ST offers were this season.

I never renewed but have paid at the gate every week, I'm sure there will be a lot of other people like me that never renewed but found other things to do or are enjoying having a few extra quid in their pocket.

I hope the crowds come back but when the board are reviewing these accounts and asking themselves what could be done differently I hope st offers is one area they look at.

Onion
20-11-2012, 01:44 PM
I agree - but so much of that depends on the performance of the team.

A sustained run of form will gradually bring the missing fans back but that's easier said than done.

:agree: Understand Rod's call to arms but even he must realise the serious damage that has been done over the last 2-3 years (mostly self inflicted) and particularly that humiliating Cup Final. It could take YEARS for that to work out of the system, and some battle hardened fans could be lost to the club forever.

RP should be grateful for the support the fans have shown the club this season. Had all that happened to the Yams, they'd be down to 4-5k attendances. So, maybe this is a time for RP to still recognise the sacrifices most of us have made for the club, sign up Griffith as a statement of intent/gesture and effort to rebuild trust.

happiehibbie
20-11-2012, 01:47 PM
All the peop;e who phoned beg a cup final ticket WE NEED YOU so come on get back to ER

PLEASE

marinello59
20-11-2012, 01:47 PM
:agree: Understand Rod's call to arms but even he must realise the serious damage that has been done over the last 2-3 years (mostly self inflicted) and particularly that humiliating Cup Final. It could take YEARS for that to work out of the system, and some battle hardened fans could be lost to the club forever.
RP should be grateful for the support the fans have shown the club this season. Had all that happened to the Yams, they'd be down to 4-5k attendances. So, maybe this is a time for RP to still recognise the sacrifices most of us have made for the club, sign up Griffith as a statement of intent/gesture and effort to rebuild trust.

Any grown man still seriously claiming to be traumatised by the cup final should invest in a new set of gonads then get back to supporting the team they claim to love.

matty_f
20-11-2012, 01:50 PM
Any grown man still seriously claiming to be traumatised by the cup final should invest in a new set of gonads then get back to supporting the team they claim to love.

:agree: How long are folk going to let one game of football put them off ever going back to Easter Road. We're a different team this season, it's not even like we're watching exactly the same players struggling to play football now.

blackpoolhibs
20-11-2012, 01:50 PM
Could not agree more with this.

It seems people are just looking for an excuse. 'I'll come back if we sign McPake permanently' 'I'll only come back if Rangers are put into the third division'
'I'll only come back when Hibs start winning games regularly'
Well all 3 of these have happened and still folk are coming out with the age old excuses. Get back and support the team and we can make this club stronger than ever.

Is it the same folk?

Onion
20-11-2012, 01:53 PM
Could not agree more with this.

It seems people are just looking for an excuse. 'I'll come back if we sign McPake permanently' 'I'll only come back if Rangers are put into the third division'
'I'll only come back when Hibs start winning games regularly'
Well all 3 of these have happened and still folk are coming out with the age old excuses. Get back and support the team and we can make this club stronger than ever.

Agree progress is being made, but what we're talking about is trust - and that's not rebuilt with a few token gestures. In their inept mis-management of the club over the last 2-3 years, and disgraceful performance of the players last May in arguably the most important game in our history, Hibs have managed to destroy a lot of of the trust that Hibs fans had in the club. IMHO a lot of people will never return to ER again. Doesn't apply to me, but can understand why many will take a huge amount of convincing to go back.

Franck Stanton
20-11-2012, 01:54 PM
Once again the directors at E/R have been incompetent with the cash we have and are turning to the rank and file die-hard supporters to rectify their mistakes/bad judgement. Take for example the Calderwood fiasco, --- we could have got what, around £300,000 compensation for him, but no, the board kept him, he "worked his ticket" and we end up having to pay him off, a turn around of say, £500,000 -- how many season tickets would that buy I ask you. There are other areas they have been incompetant in as well, and their solution ? Get the mug punters to pay .

Onion
20-11-2012, 01:56 PM
Any grown man still seriously claiming to be traumatised by the cup final should invest in a new set of gonads then get back to supporting the team they claim to love.

Yip, that's what Rod should have said. That'll get them back :crazy:

marinello59
20-11-2012, 01:57 PM
Once again the directors at E/R have been incompetent with the cash we have and are turning to the rank and file die-hard supporters to rectify their mistakes/bad judgement. Take for example the Calderwood fiasco, --- we could have got what, around £300,000 compensation for him, but no, the board kept him, he "worked his ticket" and we end up having to pay him off, a turn around of say, £500,000 -- how many season tickets would that buy I ask you. There are other areas they have been incompetant in as well, and their solution ? Get the mug punters to pay .

Really. He isn't asking us to donate dosh or bake cakes or tell our kids Santa has sold their toys to provide Petrie with 'tashe grooming products. He is asking supporters to go along to games to support the team. A lot of us must be mugs already.

#FromTheCapital
20-11-2012, 01:58 PM
What happened to through thick and thin? the club will never prosper if folk only turn up when we are on a winning streak, the supporters need to support the club permanently


Think theres just been far too much thin over the last 5 years or so. Hard to blame anyone for losing interest especially when football in general costs a lot and a decent percentage of the games are on tv.

FWIW me and a few of my mates have started going back a lot this season and I will be buying a half season ticket and would urge anyone who can afford it to buy one also because the team have been much better to watch this season.

Oh and to any jambos looking in for a laugh just realise that our situation isn't even comparable to yours, you deluded twats :fenlon

matty_f
20-11-2012, 01:59 PM
Once again the directors at E/R have been incompetent with the cash we have and are turning to the rank and file die-hard supporters to rectify their mistakes/bad judgement. Take for example the Calderwood fiasco, --- we could have got what, around £300,000 compensation for him, but no, the board kept him, he "worked his ticket" and we end up having to pay him off, a turn around of say, £500,000 -- how many season tickets would that buy I ask you. There are other areas they have been incompetant in as well, and their solution ? Get the mug punters to pay .


The thing with that is that they hired Calderwood on the back of a selection process, and he came highly recommended by people of high standing in the British game. Once he was on board, the club backed him by bringing his players in.

They were caught between a rock and a hard place when the situation arose, on the one hand they could have taken compensation but on the other they felt they should try and protect the investment they'd made.

It's easy making the decision as a mug punter as we don't have to pick up the pieces of whatever decision we make.

Much more difficult when you're faced with the situation.

Spike Mandela
20-11-2012, 02:02 PM
Hibs have some big games from now until over the festive period at ER. Aberdeen, Hearts, Motherwell and Celtic in the next five weeks or so.. Positive performances/results will extend the feelgood factor and improve crowds hopefully. Even Ross County should see a decent crowd as Boxing day traditionally provides big crowds.

Vitally important to get back on track on Saturday against a resurgant Aberdeen.

number9dream
20-11-2012, 02:07 PM
I'm laying on the guilt to my old dad and his pal, so there could be an extra couple of pensioners toddling along on Saturday.

Player trading makes a huge difference. The only guys with potential significant sell-on value are Sparky & Spoony, so it's vital we get those two on longer contracts and that will take some brave investment.

Pretty Boy
20-11-2012, 02:14 PM
The thing with that is that they hired Calderwood on the back of a selection process, and he came highly recommended by people of high standing in the British game. Once he was on board, the club backed him by bringing his players in.

They were caught between a rock and a hard place when the situation arose, on the one hand they could have taken compensation but on the other they felt they should try and protect the investment they'd made.

It's easy making the decision as a mug punter as we don't have to pick up the pieces of whatever decision we make.

Much more difficult when you're faced with the situation.

I'd also add that there was still a lot of people backing Calderwood that summer. Plenty were still, to a certain extent correctly, laying the blame for the previous season at Hughes' door.

Had the board taken the money on offer, and only one of the clubs quoted as being interested actually made an offer, they would have had howls of 'lack of ambition' and 'letting our manager go on the cheap'

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and everyone and their dog now claims to have seen Calderwoods failings early doors but that's total nonsense, plenty on here claimed he would come good and wanted him to stay throughout that summer.

JeMeSouviens
20-11-2012, 02:27 PM
Any grown man still seriously claiming to be traumatised by the cup final should invest in a new set of gonads then get back to supporting the team they claim to love.

There's traumatised and then there's totally scunnered. After the torture of the last few seasons topped off with cup final hell, I probably wouldn't have been at ER this season if I hadn't made a deal with myself to support the club for doing the right thing in blocking the Hun.

Having done that, I've found myself really enjoying the football again and so me and the bairns will be going to our 5th game on Saturday and have bought our tickets for the cup game*. There are bound to be folk who haven't calmed down enough to go back yet though.

* DON'T ******* LET US DOWN, HIBS.:grr:

brog
20-11-2012, 02:35 PM
Don't think so, only had a sell on fee clause for his original transfer away from Hibs.
I know it seems unlikely but one of the local papers, ie Burnley, Wolves or Sunderland reported we were due a fee.

down-the-slope
20-11-2012, 02:52 PM
Just a reminder that the stitched up system of half all TV money & sponsorship being divided on league placings with a very heavy weighting to 1st & 2nd :rolleyes: this year there will be one of those 'golden' places up for grabs - going to be a big one for who ever gets it (and yes I know there could be 2 - but chances of Celtic finishing 3rd or lower are not worth quoting)

The_Sauz
20-11-2012, 02:53 PM
Just keep selling the pegs mate and we will be fine.

Well my peg selling business is in turmoil! What with the price of timber going up, the poor summer, and the price of tumble dryers dropping........DOOM I tell yeah :grr:















































:greengrin

givescotlandfreedom
20-11-2012, 02:54 PM
Any grown man still seriously claiming to be traumatised by the cup final should invest in a new set of gonads then get back to supporting the team they claim to love.

Correct! How long are we going to punish the club for something that happened with a totally different set of players with a totally different mindset. Am beginning to wonder if some folk are scared of Jambos singing their naughty songs about it or what?

brog
20-11-2012, 02:55 PM
The a/c's effectively show that for us to make a profit we need to sell a player or 2 each season. This year's operating loss was actually the lowest in the last 5 seasons. Transfer fees received however were under £100k, compared to an average of £2.2mm in the previous 4 years. In those circumstances a loss of only £1mm is actually a good result reflecting a reduction in costs all round. With no obvious major transfer assets currently at ER our next major profit may come from buying & selling in the transfer market, Stokes was our last sale of note. Anyone think of a player who may be available relatively cheaply with a potential high sell on value???

scott7_0(Prague)
20-11-2012, 03:02 PM
The a/c's effectively show that for us to make a profit we need to sell a player or 2 each season. This year's operating loss was actually the lowest in the last 5 seasons. Transfer fees received however were under £100k, compared to an average of £2.2mm in the previous 4 years. In those circumstances a loss of only £1mm is actually a good result reflecting a reduction in costs all round. With no obvious major transfer assets currently at ER our next major profit may come from buying & selling in the transfer market, Stokes was our last sale of note. Anyone think of a player who may be available relatively cheaply with a potential high sell on value???

So buying Leigh at 150k and selling him in 12months for 1.5m is the way to forward. Can you cast this model and send it to RP quickly?

JimBHibees
20-11-2012, 03:08 PM
Agree progress is being made, but what we're talking about is trust - and that's not rebuilt with a few token gestures. In their inept mis-management of the club over the last 2-3 years, and disgraceful performance of the players last May in arguably the most important game in our history, Hibs have managed to destroy a lot of of the trust that Hibs fans had in the club. IMHO a lot of people will never return to ER again. Doesn't apply to me, but can understand why many will take a huge amount of convincing to go back.

I am sorry but if that is the attitude we are better off without them. Last season is gone and we are now playing with a bit of confidence and spirit. We are nowhere near the finished article however there have been good strides made and personally only see us getting stronger. 3 massive games coming up if we get through them all unbeaten I will be fine with that.

patch1875
20-11-2012, 03:16 PM
I'm a former season ticket holder and i'm on the database don't think i have ever received an email or letter from the club this season maybe they should look at their marketing to fans:confused:

Cocaine&Caviar
20-11-2012, 03:19 PM
So buying Leigh at 150k and selling him in 12months for 1.5m is the way to forward. Can you cast this model and send it to RP quickly?

Make it 18 months though eh. Dinane want to lose him in a January window.

Billy Whizz
20-11-2012, 03:21 PM
I'm a former season ticket holder and i'm on the database don't think i have ever received an email or letter from the club this season maybe they should look at their marketing to fans:confused:

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/page/Newsletter/0,,10290,00.html

NYHibby
20-11-2012, 03:28 PM
I may have justed missed it this morning, but Rod's shareholder letter is now up.

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/staticFiles/b8/b9/0,,10290~178616,00.pdf

Hibs7
20-11-2012, 03:30 PM
We are in a better place this year and hopefully can get a another cup run this year by launching the beggars in a fortnight.

I don't think people realise how important this game is, it could make 1000 through the home gates of a difference win or lose, so epic in its own right.

matty_f
20-11-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm a former season ticket holder and i'm on the database don't think i have ever received an email or letter from the club this season maybe they should look at their marketing to fans:confused:

:agree: how else would these people know that they could get a season ticket...

down-the-slope
20-11-2012, 03:40 PM
7 of us bought tickets for the derby cup game and a few of us going back on saturday..
we were ST holders last year but was a kick in the teeth.. time to do our bit though


Just bought two half season tickets yesterday, will be back from boxing day onward!


There's traumatised and then there's totally scunnered. After the torture of the last few seasons topped off with cup final hell, I probably wouldn't have been at ER this season if I hadn't made a deal with myself to support the club for doing the right thing in blocking the Hun.

Having done that, I've found myself really enjoying the football again and so me and the bairns will be going to our 5th game on Saturday and have bought our tickets for the cup game*. There are bound to be folk who haven't calmed down enough to go back yet though.

* DON'T ******* LET US DOWN, HIBS.:grr:

Well that 3 posts and actions that WILL make a difference to our financial situation...the rest is just opinions and hot air which ever side you are on

brog
20-11-2012, 04:40 PM
So buying Leigh at 150k and selling him in 12months for 1.5m is the way to forward. Can you cast this model and send it to RP quickly?


I'm sure RP's keenly aware of the possibility. I'm really saying to those posters who say we can't afford to buy LG, can we really afford NOT to make every effort to sign him.

hibs0666
20-11-2012, 04:42 PM
The a/c's effectively show that for us to make a profit we need to sell a player or 2 each season. This year's operating loss was actually the lowest in the last 5 seasons. Transfer fees received however were under £100k, compared to an average of £2.2mm in the previous 4 years. In those circumstances a loss of only £1mm is actually a good result reflecting a reduction in costs all round. With no obvious major transfer assets currently at ER our next major profit may come from buying & selling in the transfer market, Stokes was our last sale of note. Anyone think of a player who may be available relatively cheaply with a potential high sell on value???

I get the cut of you jib - Colin Nish. :thumbsup:

brog
20-11-2012, 04:45 PM
I get the cut of you jib - Colin Nish. :thumbsup:

You're bad!! Certainly isn't Kuqi though which again astonishes me that Tache sanctioned the move!

Baldy Foghorn
20-11-2012, 05:00 PM
still not great, but much better than I thought they'd be.

Snap, I was thinking the loss would be greater, so a pleasant surprise was had when the Account's came through my letterbox.........

BEEJ
20-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Can we also remember that this includes the paying off of Colin Calderwood, had we accepted the offer for him in the summer things would have looked a whole lot better than they do.. We also had to pay off a lot of players to get rid and we will also have Osbourne money included in next years accounts :agree:


Would the transfer fee for Osbourne and the sell on clause for Bamba come into next years figures?
The Osbourne deal went through on 20 July so will be included in the figures for the year to 31 July 2012 announced today.

In effect he was the only player we sold on for a fee during the year in question and alone probably accounts for the £100k figure quoted.

Separately we' were rumoured to have spent £100k on Deegan when he joined us on 4 August. So that outgoing fee will be in this year's accounts.

greenlex
20-11-2012, 06:00 PM
Yep to both.

The simple answer to Yam taxi drivers who have stories to tell is "No, Hibs aren't going bust, Hearts are. Shut up and drive".

You forgot "there's a tip now mind and pay the tax".

Baldy Foghorn
20-11-2012, 06:06 PM
I stated at AGM a few years back, that our profits were only due to player sales, and did not see anyone at that time commanding a decent sized sell on value.....

It would be great to have a couple coming through that can learn their trades here, and can be sold to bolster the coffers......It is difficult for all football clubs in the current economic climate, and we really need to see bigger home crowds to help sustain our position.....

ScottB
20-11-2012, 06:32 PM
Not too bad all things considered, the same loss as last year with £800k less coming in in transfer fees.

I'd expect this year to be better, no manager pay outs, a bit better crowds, presumably a better league finish. The 60% wage turnover is also good, but clearly we need to drive up income, which means more fans through the gate!

stoneyburn hibs
20-11-2012, 06:39 PM
I stated at AGM a few years back, that our profits were only due to player sales, and did not see anyone at that time commanding a decent sized sell on value.....

It would be great to have a couple coming through that can learn their trades here, and can be sold to bolster the coffers......It is difficult for all football clubs in the current economic climate, and we really need to see bigger home crowds to help sustain our position.....

Its not just simple as lapsed fans choosing not to buy a season ticket , most will simply not be able to afford it given the current climate.
That was the case with myself but now after being a lapsed ST holder for the last 4 years im in a position to get the ST's back. Two half season books soon to be purchased.

cocopops1875
20-11-2012, 06:46 PM
Its not just simple as lapsed fans choosing not to buy a season ticket , most will simply not be able to afford it given the current climate.
That was the case with myself but now after being a lapsed ST holder for the last 4 years im in a position to get the ST's back. Two half season books soon to be purchased.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::flag::flag::flag:

Mikey
20-11-2012, 06:52 PM
You can see the accounts here.........

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?250693-*****Accounts-to-31st-July-2012-See-Them-Here*****

Ray_
20-11-2012, 07:04 PM
I agree - but it's a fact of life.

Some fans will need a lot more convincing than others to part with their hard earned cash and only a sustained run of form will fully convince them.

Fans are fickle and it's a lot easier to follow a successful entertaining team than a team which struggles from week to week.They actually want to enjoy the matchday experience after all.

Its not just fickle fans, recent years have done a lot of damage & it'll take more than a couple of months with decent results to have a major impact, as per letter below which I lifted from the EEN.

"After being a season ticket holder for over 40 years, I, along with 6 of my family and friends are part of the "lost thousands" who have given up never to return. The selling of any half decent player we have/had (mostly to the OF) has been catastrophic in playing terms. We may have a relatively healthy financial position, but without a competitive team on the park, what is the point ? Against my better judgement, I went to the cup final. That was the final straw. I will always be a fan, but I am no longer a supporter. There is and never will be any ambition at the club other than to stay financially healthy. Had we taken a punt (wages) with the team we had a few years ago i.e. Brown, Thomson, O'Connor, Whittaker, etc. who knows what we might have achieved ? All we got was a "sell the family silver" approach and the sight of all of these home developed players coming back to help the OF maintain the Status Quo. I wish the club well, but for me Rod, it's too late. I have moved on to other interests and will not return."

Mikey
20-11-2012, 07:23 PM
Its not just fickle fans, recent years have done a lot of damage & it'll take more than a couple of months with decent results to have a major impact, as per letter below which I lifted from the EEN.

"After being a season ticket holder for over 40 years, I, along with 6 of my family and friends are part of the "lost thousands" who have given up never to return. The selling of any half decent player we have/had (mostly to the OF) has been catastrophic in playing terms. We may have a relatively healthy financial position, but without a competitive team on the park, what is the point ? Against my better judgement, I went to the cup final. That was the final straw. I will always be a fan, but I am no longer a supporter. There is and never will be any ambition at the club other than to stay financially healthy. Had we taken a punt (wages) with the team we had a few years ago i.e. Brown, Thomson, O'Connor, Whittaker, etc. who knows what we might have achieved ? All we got was a "sell the family silver" approach and the sight of all of these home developed players coming back to help the OF maintain the Status Quo. I wish the club well, but for me Rod, it's too late. I have moved on to other interests and will not return."

Why would someone who's completely lost interest go to the effort of writing into the EEN?

ScottB
20-11-2012, 07:26 PM
Its not just fickle fans, recent years have done a lot of damage & it'll take more than a couple of months with decent results to have a major impact, as per letter below which I lifted from the EEN.

"After being a season ticket holder for over 40 years, I, along with 6 of my family and friends are part of the "lost thousands" who have given up never to return. The selling of any half decent player we have/had (mostly to the OF) has been catastrophic in playing terms. We may have a relatively healthy financial position, but without a competitive team on the park, what is the point ? Against my better judgement, I went to the cup final. That was the final straw. I will always be a fan, but I am no longer a supporter. There is and never will be any ambition at the club other than to stay financially healthy. Had we taken a punt (wages) with the team we had a few years ago i.e. Brown, Thomson, O'Connor, Whittaker, etc. who knows what we might have achieved ? All we got was a "sell the family silver" approach and the sight of all of these home developed players coming back to help the OF maintain the Status Quo. I wish the club well, but for me Rod, it's too late. I have moved on to other interests and will not return."

So he's not taking note of the competitive team we have now then? Or the fact we are running at a loss to fund said team?

Sounds a bit dodgy to me, after 40 years I'm not sure why someone would walk because of last season.

flash
20-11-2012, 07:28 PM
Its not just fickle fans, recent years have done a lot of damage & it'll take more than a couple of months with decent results to have a major impact, as per letter below which I lifted from the EEN.

"After being a season ticket holder for over 40 years, I, along with 6 of my family and friends are part of the "lost thousands" who have given up never to return. The selling of any half decent player we have/had (mostly to the OF) has been catastrophic in playing terms. We may have a relatively healthy financial position, but without a competitive team on the park, what is the point ? Against my better judgement, I went to the cup final. That was the final straw. I will always be a fan, but I am no longer a supporter. There is and never will be any ambition at the club other than to stay financially healthy. Had we taken a punt (wages) with the team we had a few years ago i.e. Brown, Thomson, O'Connor, Whittaker, etc. who knows what we might have achieved ? All we got was a "sell the family silver" approach and the sight of all of these home developed players coming back to help the OF maintain the Status Quo. I wish the club well, but for me Rod, it's too late. I have moved on to other interests and will not return."

Presumably the other interests include writing ill informed letters.

A punt on the wages? Have they taken a look across the city recently?

matty_f
20-11-2012, 07:30 PM
Presumably the other interests include writing ill informed letters.

A punt on the wages? Have they taken a look across the city recently?

Or even at our financial results...

Onion
20-11-2012, 07:43 PM
I'd also add that there was still a lot of people backing Calderwood that summer. Plenty were still, to a certain extent correctly, laying the blame for the previous season at Hughes' door.

Had the board taken the money on offer, and only one of the clubs quoted as being interested actually made an offer, they would have had howls of 'lack of ambition' and 'letting our manager go on the cheap'

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and everyone and their dog now claims to have seen Calderwoods failings early doors but that's total nonsense, plenty on here claimed he would come good and wanted him to stay throughout that summer.

Problem with this is that it is the Hibs Board (not the fans) who are charged with making these tough decisions and they are well paid to get these decisions right. The Board had more than enough red flags and reasons to sack the man in the summer - let alone get money for him. His "sweetie bag" comments said everything about his commitment to the job and his "leadership" skills. Still makes me shudder :rolleyes:

Onion
20-11-2012, 07:56 PM
Presumably the other interests include writing ill informed letters.

A punt on the wages? Have they taken a look across the city recently?

I've no problem with Hibs selling the "golden generation" as they got incredible money for them, but I would stop short of second guessing what will happen across the city. They've taken a very different route to Hibs, had much better players and won the Scottish Cup twice - beating their local rivals by 9-1 in the process. There are a lot of Hibs fans who would trade apparent financial security for those results.

flash
20-11-2012, 08:01 PM
I've no problem with Hibs selling the "golden generation" as they got incredible money for them, but I would stop short of second guessing what will happen across the city. They've taken a very different route to Hibs, had much better players and won the Scottish Cup twice - beating their local rivals by 9-1 in the process. There are a lot of Hibs fans who would trade apparent financial security for those results.

Seriously? Trade those results for the state Hertz are in?

euansdad
20-11-2012, 08:02 PM
Hopefully people will make a commitment. I have decided to by getting this half season ticket and then renew it as a full season ticket in the summer. I work every other Saturday so will miss a few but don't mind the fact it probably won't be value for money in terms of games attended but its a difference I can make.

Ray_
20-11-2012, 08:35 PM
Presumably the other interests include writing ill informed letters.

A punt on the wages? Have they taken a look across the city recently?

4/5 years ago we attracted crowds of around 14,000 and fans spent a great deal more on hospitality & merchandising. The crowds alone were well above Petrie's break even figure from then of 11,000, just because they are in a lot worse position on the other side of the city doesn't mean that we have done such a cracking job of it.


So he's not taking note of the competitive team we have now then? Or the fact we are running at a loss to fund said team?

Sounds a bit dodgy to me, after 40 years I'm not sure why someone would walk because of last season.

What sounds dodgy to me is labelling the team that played so poorly at Dundee as competitive! We are far better than we were, but from a position of strength, we should never have been in the position where we had the 3-4 years of dross that chased so many of our support away. We still get 50% bigger crowds than most others in the SPL, so not being competitive, on a regular basis, is serious underachievement.


Why would someone who's completely lost interest go to the effort of writing into the EEN?


For 40 years the club meant so much to him Mickey, from that you work out the reason why he might have written such a letter & with the drop in attendances, he is certainly not alone.

Onion
20-11-2012, 09:02 PM
Seriously? Trade those results for the state Hertz are in?

What state are they in ? They're still able to field a lot of players who would walk straight into this current Hibs side. They beat their local rivals for fun, have just pumped us in the biggest Edin Derby in history and IMHO have enough friends in high places that will never let them go to the wall - at least for very long. Let's say they go bust and get dumped into Div 3. They'll recover, debt free, just as the Huns will, and will be back in the SPL within 2 or 3 seasons to carry on where they left off. Is that a price worth paying for 2 rare Scot Cup wins, humiliating your fiercest rivals in the Semi & Final ? You know the answer.

BEEJ
20-11-2012, 09:04 PM
You can see the accounts here.........

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?250693-*****Accounts-to-31st-July-2012-See-Them-Here*****
Cheers! :aok:

Are you on commission with Smart PDF Creator? :greengrin

flash
20-11-2012, 09:04 PM
Gies peace.

Saorsa
20-11-2012, 09:08 PM
I've no problem with Hibs selling the "golden generation" as they got incredible money for them, but I would stop short of second guessing what will happen across the city. They've taken a very different route to Hibs, had much better players and won the Scottish Cup twice - beating their local rivals by 9-1 in the process. There are a lot of Hibs fans who would trade apparent financial security for those results.


What state are they in ? They're still able to field a lot of players who would walk straight into this current Hibs side. They beat their local rivals for fun, have just pumped us in the biggest Edin Derby in history and IMHO have enough friends in high places that will never let them go to the wall - at least for very long. Let's say they go bust and get dumped into Div 3. They'll recover, debt free, just as the Huns will, and will be back in the SPL within 2 or 3 seasons to carry on where they left off. Is that a price worth paying for 2 rare Scot Cup wins, humiliating your fiercest rivals in the Semi & Final ? You know the answer.Help ma boab

Mikey
20-11-2012, 09:19 PM
Cheers! :aok:

Are you on commission with Smart PDF Creator? :greengrin

Naw, but mibbe hibs.net should be buying Office 2010. For site use obviously :whistle:

:tee hee:

matty_f
20-11-2012, 09:19 PM
Help ma boab

:agree: mental.

Mikey
20-11-2012, 09:20 PM
What state are they in ? They're still able to field a lot of players who would walk straight into this current Hibs side. They beat their local rivals for fun, have just pumped us in the biggest Edin Derby in history and IMHO have enough friends in high places that will never let them go to the wall - at least for very long. Let's say they go bust and get dumped into Div 3. They'll recover, debt free, just as the Huns will, and will be back in the SPL within 2 or 3 seasons to carry on where they left off. Is that a price worth paying for 2 rare Scot Cup wins, humiliating your fiercest rivals in the Semi & Final ? You know the answer.

Yep. It aint a tricky one!

Baldy Foghorn
20-11-2012, 09:38 PM
I've no problem with Hibs selling the "golden generation" as they got incredible money for them, but I would stop short of second guessing what will happen across the city. They've taken a very different route to Hibs, had much better players and won the Scottish Cup twice - beating their local rivals by 9-1 in the process. There are a lot of Hibs fans who would trade apparent financial security for those results.

I used to be STF and RP's fiercist critics, and told them both so on numerous occasions. That said, when you look at the state of Scottish Football, with Derhun and the yams in particular, I think that Hibs have been managed incredibly well in exceptionally difficult circumstances....Rather have that than be insolvent and plying our trade in D3......

GoldenEagle
20-11-2012, 10:28 PM
For the Hearts fans looking in, we have a brand new stadium which makes up most of the debt (you have a £24m debt and need a new stadium)

The Stadium is in the name of Hibernian Football Club.

The debt is largely made up of:

B) £2.8m payable at £20k per month and £1.6m in Aug 2018
C) £1.37m due in Oct 2023
D) £2.5m due as a one off payment in 2020.


I really cannot make it any more simple than the above. Copy and paste it into JKB if you want.

jabis
20-11-2012, 10:41 PM
I've no problem with Hibs selling the "golden generation" as they got incredible money for them, but I would stop short of second guessing what will happen across the city. They've taken a very different route to Hibs, had much better players and won the Scottish Cup twice - beating their local rivals by 9-1 in the process. There are a lot of Hibs fans who would trade apparent financial security for those results.

only the ones with the IQ of hertz current worth,-14 million :rolleyes:

jabis
20-11-2012, 10:46 PM
Help ma boab

you forgot 'jings crivvens and.....

jgl07
21-11-2012, 12:19 AM
Don't think so, only had a sell on fee clause for his original transfer away from Hibs.

I am surprised no-one is asking about the sell on fee for Kenny Miller's transfer to Vancouver Whitecaps.

jgl07
21-11-2012, 12:26 AM
Its not just fickle fans, recent years have done a lot of damage & it'll take more than a couple of months with decent results to have a major impact, as per letter below which I lifted from the EEN.

"After being a season ticket holder for over 40 years, I, along with 6 of my family and friends are part of the "lost thousands" who have given up never to return. The selling of any half decent player we have/had (mostly to the OF) has been catastrophic in playing terms. We may have a relatively healthy financial position, but without a competitive team on the park, what is the point ? Against my better judgement, I went to the cup final. That was the final straw. I will always be a fan, but I am no longer a supporter. There is and never will be any ambition at the club other than to stay financially healthy. Had we taken a punt (wages) with the team we had a few years ago i.e. Brown, Thomson, O'Connor, Whittaker, etc. who knows what we might have achieved ? All we got was a "sell the family silver" approach and the sight of all of these home developed players coming back to help the OF maintain the Status Quo. I wish the club well, but for me Rod, it's too late. I have moved on to other interests and will not return."

The strategy outlined in that letter would have had Hibs where Hearts are just now. Except for the fact that Hibs would not have lasted this long.

Spike Mandela
21-11-2012, 12:45 AM
For the Hearts fans looking in, we have a brand new stadium which makes up most of the debt (you have a £24m debt and need a new stadium)

The Stadium is in the name of Hibernian Football Club.

The debt is largely made up of:

B) £2.8m payable at £20k per month and £1.6m in Aug 2018
C) £1.37m due in Oct 2023
D) £2.5m due as a one off payment in 2020.


I really cannot make it any more simple than the above. Copy and paste it into JKB if you want.

Nobody else a bit concerned that we have to find £1.6m in 2018 and then a further £2.5m two years later. Where will this come from?

Pete
21-11-2012, 02:31 AM
4/5 years ago we attracted crowds of around 14,000 and fans spent a great deal more on hospitality & merchandising. The crowds alone were well above Petrie's break even figure from then of 11,000, just because they are in a lot worse position on the other side of the city doesn't mean that we have done such a cracking job of it.



There was no global financial crisis 4/5 years ago. People had more disposable income and credit was easy to come by. I'm actually glad we didn't take a punt on paying the golden generation huge wages which were reliant on pre-credit crunch crowds. Crowds would have dipped regardless and we would probably be in trouble.

I'm pretty happy with our long-term strategy of investing in infrastructure first and building for the future. It's not totally faultless but this is the model all clubs of similar size will be forced to use in the future.

If people like that guy in the letter and his six friends can't see what we're doing and look at the big picture then that's pretty sad but hopefully there will be seven more to replace them once we start progressing as others, who have been reckless, fail.

GoldenEagle
21-11-2012, 07:24 AM
Nobody else a bit concerned that we have to find £1.6m in 2018 and then a further £2.5m two years later. Where will this come from?

In all honesty no, if it can't be met then it'll be refinanced into monthly payments (prob with a penalty payment) or deferred.

lyonhibs
21-11-2012, 08:35 AM
Nobody else a bit concerned that we have to find £1.6m in 2018 and then a further £2.5m two years later. Where will this come from?

Increased attendances should help as - by that time - young kids will only ever hear about Hearts in history class :greengrin.

Also, cloning technology will have advanced to the stage that we just need to get together the relevant DNA samples to clone a Scott Brown, O'Connor, Riordan, Sproule, Whittaker, Thomson all back to their 2004-2005 model and hey presto, The Golden Generation Mk II

euansdad
21-11-2012, 08:51 AM
Plus I will have won the lottery by then and will wipe hibs debt off and more with my millions, maybe billions so no need worry, I have it under control

Mikey
21-11-2012, 08:54 AM
Nobody else a bit concerned that we have to find £1.6m in 2018 and then a further £2.5m two years later. Where will this come from?

I'll worry about 2018 if I make it to 2017 :greengrin

Ray_
21-11-2012, 08:58 AM
There was no global financial crisis 4/5 years ago. People had more disposable income and credit was easy to come by. I'm actually glad we didn't take a punt on paying the golden generation huge wages which were reliant on pre-credit crunch crowds. Crowds would have dipped regardless and we would probably be in trouble.

I'm pretty happy with our long-term strategy of investing in infrastructure first and building for the future. It's not totally faultless but this is the model all clubs of similar size will be forced to use in the future.

If people like that guy in the letter and his six friends can't see what we're doing and look at the big picture then that's pretty sad but hopefully there will be seven more to replace them once we start progressing as others, who have been reckless, fail.

People can see what we were trying to do, the problem is that the product became that gash they were driven away & it'll take a lot more then plea's from the chairman to get them back, especially when he is responsible for decisions that have cost the club plenty. Driving 30% of your customer base away is never good business.

Ray_
21-11-2012, 09:02 AM
The strategy outlined in that letter would have had Hibs where Hearts are just now. Except for the fact that Hibs would not have lasted this long.

We could never have hung on to those players, but we should have done far more to make it worthwhile for people to have kept on going to ER.

euansdad
21-11-2012, 09:06 AM
Agree with ray. We can all play around with the notion of what a true supporter is but there are so many factors at play here, including the wider economic climate. The truth is, given recent disastrous seasons and underachievement, many supporters would have looked at the price of a season ticket or match day ticket and thought it simply ain't worth it for the 'product' on the pitch. The challenge is for the club to win these people back. Fortunately, it is achievable. I like to think the average hibs supporter is realistic and doesn't expect titles year after year but signs of progress on and off te park are needed and indications that relegation battles are a thing of the past! A club of our size shouldn't be fighting Dunfermline to avoid the drop ffs. Hopefully, the signs are there that improvements have started and people will return but yeah, given external factors and the current climate, people need to have faith that what they are paying is worth it and clubs can't keep relying on blind loyalty

HibbySpurs
21-11-2012, 10:58 AM
Agree with ray. We can all play around with the notion of what a true supporter is but there are so many factors at play here, including the wider economic climate. The truth is, given recent disastrous seasons and underachievement, many supporters would have looked at the price of a season ticket or match day ticket and thought it simply ain't worth it for the 'product' on the pitch. The challenge is for the club to win these people back. Fortunately, it is achievable. I like to think the average hibs supporter is realistic and doesn't expect titles year after year but signs of progress on and off te park are needed and indications that relegation battles are a thing of the past! A club of our size shouldn't be fighting Dunfermline to avoid the drop ffs. Hopefully, the signs are there that improvements have started and people will return but yeah, given external factors and the current climate, people need to have faith that what they are paying is worth it and clubs can't keep relying on blind loyalty

:agree:, agree 100% with the above

Chuck Rhoades
21-11-2012, 12:26 PM
I used to be STF and RP's fiercist critics, and told them both so on numerous occasions. That said, when you look at the state of Scottish Football, with Derhun and the yams in particular, I think that Hibs have been managed incredibly well in exceptionally difficult circumstances....Rather have that than be insolvent and plying our trade in D3......

This. Exactly how I have felt and now feel. Sure we aren't the only ones either. The whole Huns/Yams state of affairs changed my opinion of Rod.

brog
21-11-2012, 12:29 PM
I know it seems unlikely but one of the local papers, ie Burnley, Wolves or Sunderland reported we were due a fee.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9894870.Howe_not_expecting_transfer_cash/

There you go, found it!! If this report's accurate we may have earned about £400/500k from Fletch's move to Sunderland! Seems unrealistic but 15% of £7.5mm profit = £1.125mm & they're reporting Burnley as receiving " upwards of £600,000 following the payment to Hibs ". Personally I believe we may have negotiated 15% of Burnley's future profit on sale which would give us a more realistic £112,500 which is still very welcome ( more than we made last season!! )
FWIW I believe the article to be correct re the principle but I find the numbers unrealistic.
Fletch just keeps on giving!!

Ross4356
21-11-2012, 01:18 PM
I've no problem with Hibs selling the "golden generation" as they got incredible money for them, but I would stop short of second guessing what will happen across the city. They've taken a very different route to Hibs, had much better players and won the Scottish Cup twice - beating their local rivals by 9-1 in the process. There are a lot of Hibs fans who would trade apparent financial security for those results.

You are an absolute idiot!!!

thebakerboy
21-11-2012, 01:58 PM
I'll worry about 2018 if I make it to 2017 :greengrin

I'll worry about 2018 if I make it through 2017

Ozyhibby
21-11-2012, 02:24 PM
Nobody else a bit concerned that we have to find £1.6m in 2018 and then a further £2.5m two years later. Where will this come from?

We've taken in about £16m in the last 6 years in transfer fees. Taking in £4.1m in the next 6 years to cover these loan repayments should easily be manageable.

Onion
21-11-2012, 02:52 PM
You are an absolute idiot!!!

Knew it upset some :greengrin

euansdad
21-11-2012, 03:03 PM
So you were trolling?

Hibercelona
21-11-2012, 03:12 PM
So basically, we've made a financial lose of approximately £450,000 over the year.

Bake sale anyone? :cb

euansdad
21-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Like to think we won't have to resort to that or do what the yams and the Huns do......... Blame everyone else for a deficit of our own making!

JeMeSouviens
21-11-2012, 03:33 PM
I used to be STF and RP's fiercist critics, and told them both so on numerous occasions. That said, when you look at the state of Scottish Football, with Derhun and the yams in particular, I think that Hibs have been managed incredibly well in exceptionally difficult circumstances....Rather have that than be insolvent and plying our trade in D3......

I don't think there's a need for fierce criticism but over the top praise is perhaps unwarranted also.

These are the second poor set of results in a row and the ones before that were glossed over by player sales. Something went badly wrong in our football playing department and you can't get much more of a key part of a football club than that. A series of bad appointments/poor oversight/low staff morale/poor staff discipline (delete as takes your fancy but something sure ain't been right). Signs are that changes have been made and we are getting back on track but not before time!

Going a bit further back, a lot of people seem to have forgotten we got into serious bother in the 1999-mid noughties period. Partly due to ground reconstruction but also partly trying to keep up with the neighbours. Debt got to around £17M iirc, not far off that of the Pieman led Yams at the time. Since then we've followed wildly divergent paths but if it hadn't been for the combined good fortune of getting silly money for the old car park and the golden generation (both pretty much unplanned pieces of luck) we would still be in some amount of bother.

So, credit where it's due, Hibs are in a very strong position with a complete modern stadium and training centre, manageable debt and a recovering football team but let's try and keep a rounded view of how we got here.

happiehibbie
21-11-2012, 04:03 PM
Its really simple if this was not supported by STF then the business is not sustainable more football teams will go to the wall in the next 6 months I recon Dunfermline, Dundee.

Hearts will like us get a sentimental fool to border the debt but smaller clubs

In fairness Mr Petrie and STF could walk away and we would be in S t creek if we want to preserve OUR team we all must rally round and rally round now we need to stop hiding our head in the sand our club along with ours is in trouble No Company can sustain debt or losses of this size. we need to stop the bleeding NOW.

we need another Hands of hibs campaign to raise funding or we will go the same way harsh words I know but people are losing jobs all over the country Broxburn have just lost 1000 jobs company next door to me shut yesterday morning loss of 10 jobs just because we are a football team does not make us vulnerable.

I do believe that our chairman our marketing team need to work harder we need to be using the stadium more not once a week the sign of keep of the grass should be stuck up there A e remember we are shut for 12 weeks during the summer what company can support that.

please tell 10 to tell 10 to get along to ER use it or we will lose it one day

now where is my tin hat

Baldy Foghorn
21-11-2012, 05:24 PM
I don't think there's a need for fierce criticism but over the top praise is perhaps unwarranted also.

These are the second poor set of results in a row and the ones before that were glossed over by player sales. Something went badly wrong in our football playing department and you can't get much more of a key part of a football club than that. A series of bad appointments/poor oversight/low staff morale/poor staff discipline (delete as takes your fancy but something sure ain't been right). Signs are that changes have been made and we are getting back on track but not before time!

Going a bit further back, a lot of people seem to have forgotten we got into serious bother in the 1999-mid noughties period. Partly due to ground reconstruction but also partly trying to keep up with the neighbours. Debt got to around £17M iirc, not far off that of the Pieman led Yams at the time. Since then we've followed wildly divergent paths but if it hadn't been for the combined good fortune of getting silly money for the old car park and the golden generation (both pretty much unplanned pieces of luck) we would still be in some amount of bother.

So, credit where it's due, Hibs are in a very strong position with a complete modern stadium and training centre, manageable debt and a recovering football team but let's try and keep a rounded view of how we got here.

Good post, I have not forgotten how we have arrived at where we are....However I kept banging the drum, about bringing in a marquee signing, getting fans excitable and back onside....I now know that by bringing in a player on decent signing on fee/wages, would have put us further into debt. We have only been getting around 10K at home to date, but hopefully big improvements to the crowds in our next two home games, so even when we are top or second, the fans have been slow to return citing disillusionment over the last few seasons.....Really all it boils down to is putting a winning team on the park, however not bankrupting ourselves in the process....

The job for us is to do a remarkable juggling act to have both manageable debt and an attractive team to watch.....

matty_f
21-11-2012, 05:44 PM
Good post, I have not forgotten how we have arrived at where we are....However I kept banging the drum, about bringing in a marquee signing, getting fans excitable and back onside....I now know that by bringing in a player on decent signing on fee/wages, would have put us further into debt. We have only been getting around 10K at home to date, but hopefully big improvements to the crowds in our next two home games, so even when we are top or second, the fans have been slow to return citing disillusionment over the last few seasons.....Really all it boils down to is putting a winning team on the park, however not bankrupting ourselves in the process....

The job for us is to do a remarkable juggling act to have both manageable debt and an attractive team to watch.....

There is probably a good argument to say that we have gone down the marquee signing route fairly unsuccessfully over recent years and the crowds have dwindled because it never worked.

Riordan, Stokes, Murray, Liam Miller, Garry O'Connor, de Graaf - captain of a Dutch Eredivision side, and so on...

They didn't put bums on seats and didn't get us any silverware but were all ambitious signings.

#FromTheCapital
21-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Its really simple if this was not supported by STF then the business is not sustainable more football teams will go to the wall in the next 6 months I recon Dunfermline, Dundee.

Hearts will like us get a sentimental fool to border the debt but smaller clubs

In fairness Mr Petrie and STF could walk away and we would be in S t creek if we want to preserve OUR team we all must rally round and rally round now we need to stop hiding our head in the sand our club along with ours is in trouble No Company can sustain debt or losses of this size. we need to stop the bleeding NOW.

we need another Hands of hibs campaign to raise funding or we will go the same way harsh words I know but people are losing jobs all over the country Broxburn have just lost 1000 jobs company next door to me shut yesterday morning loss of 10 jobs just because we are a football team does not make us vulnerable.

I do believe that our chairman our marketing team need to work harder we need to be using the stadium more not once a week the sign of keep of the grass should be stuck up there A e remember we are shut for 12 weeks during the summer what company can support that.

please tell 10 to tell 10 to get along to ER use it or we will lose it one day

now where is my tin hat

A bit over dramatic, nowhere near as bad as this. Although the fans do need to start going back and they will if we keep up the good start we have made to this season, a decent cup run would also get the fans back as well as boosting the income.
I agree with the point you make about marketing. I had a season ticket for a number of years until about 4 seasons ago (I have been paying at the gate for selected games since) and I have never had any mail through the door or anything to try and get me to buy another season ticket since the first time I didn't renew.

Ross4356
21-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Its really simple if this was not supported by STF then the business is not sustainable more football teams will go to the wall in the next 6 months I recon Dunfermline, Dundee.

Hearts will like us get a sentimental fool to border the debt but smaller clubs

In fairness Mr Petrie and STF could walk away and we would be in S t creek if we want to preserve OUR team we all must rally round and rally round now we need to stop hiding our head in the sand our club along with ours is in trouble No Company can sustain debt or losses of this size. we need to stop the bleeding NOW.

we need another Hands of hibs campaign to raise funding or we will go the same way harsh words I know but people are losing jobs all over the country Broxburn have just lost 1000 jobs company next door to me shut yesterday morning loss of 10 jobs just because we are a football team does not make us vulnerable.

I do believe that our chairman our marketing team need to work harder we need to be using the stadium more not once a week the sign of keep of the grass should be stuck up there A e remember we are shut for 12 weeks during the summer what company can support that.

please tell 10 to tell 10 to get along to ER use it or we will lose it one day

now where is my tin hat

No need for you tin hat everyone knows you are talking nonsense

euansdad
21-11-2012, 07:02 PM
We should call it hands on hibs this time cos we want people to get hands o....... Ok forget it

blackpoolhibs
21-11-2012, 09:38 PM
Good post, I have not forgotten how we have arrived at where we are....However I kept banging the drum, about bringing in a marquee signing, getting fans excitable and back onside....I now know that by bringing in a player on decent signing on fee/wages, would have put us further into debt. We have only been getting around 10K at home to date, but hopefully big improvements to the crowds in our next two home games, so even when we are top or second, the fans have been slow to return citing disillusionment over the last few seasons.....Really all it boils down to is putting a winning team on the park, however not bankrupting ourselves in the process....

The job for us is to do a remarkable juggling act to have both manageable debt and an attractive team to watch.....

We needed whoever was in charge of the team to bloody manage it a damn site better than it had been managed.

Clubs on half of our income were out playing us, that needed to change, we look like we have turned the corner without bankrupting ourselves too.

Its nice having a team thats punching its weight. :thumbsup:

proud_and_green
22-11-2012, 07:12 AM
I'm a former season ticket holder and i'm on the database don't think i have ever received an email or letter from the club this season maybe they should look at their marketing to fans:confused:

:rotflmao::rotflmao:

Oh so the fault for you not knowing where the stadium is or where to get tickets or how to sing songs all lies with the club.......!

euansdad
22-11-2012, 07:45 AM
I think the argument is though that there were a lot of people who were lost during a period of real poor results and form and these are people who could be brought back to attending and yeah, the club could do more to entice people in

happiehibbie
22-11-2012, 08:08 AM
So am wrong that last year we lost just under a million pounds last year which works out around 20000 a week loss for goodness sake its a million pound short fall some off us have a 5k debt we cannot service.

Football teams are living of the debt serviced from the bank they call it in they are all in trouble

they quickest way to go from a multi millionaire to a millionaire is buy a football team

anyway am in for the long haul lets get the supporters back

GGTTH

Ray_
22-11-2012, 08:33 AM
So am wrong that last year we lost just under a million pounds last year which works out around 20000 a week loss for goodness sake its a million pound short fall some off us have a 5k debt we cannot service.

Football teams are living of the debt serviced from the bank they call it in they are all in trouble

they quickest way to go from a multi millionaire to a millionaire is buy a football team

anyway am in for the long haul lets get the supporters back

GGTTH

How much of that money could have been saved without the Manager fiasco? To lure some of lost fans back will include restoring confidence in those running the club, as we should never have been in the position we were & that's why the problem is not so straight forward as a few good results.

marinello59
22-11-2012, 08:36 AM
How much of that money could have been saved without the Manager fiasco? To lure some of lost fans back will include restoring confidence in those running the club, as we should never have been in the position we were & that's why the problem is not so straight forward as a few good results.

So Hibs go on a long winning run and people will still not go back until confidence is restored in those running the club? It's ALL about what happens in the pitch. Those fans who want to be 'wooed' back like some tragic jilted bride probably wouldn't bother their backsides going along anyway.

Ozyhibby
22-11-2012, 09:18 AM
So Hibs go on a long winning run and people will still not go back until confidence is restored in those running the club? It's ALL about what happens in the pitch. Those fans who want to be 'wooed' back like some tragic jilted bride probably wouldn't bother their backsides going along anyway.

Winning Derby matches would be a start. Saying they would not come along anyway is nonsense. We are down about 2000 fans per game on where we were a couple of years ago.
We have had a good first 1/3 of the season but it mist be sustained and we have to win against the Hearts to get these fans back.

brog
22-11-2012, 10:20 AM
There is probably a good argument to say that we have gone down the marquee signing route fairly unsuccessfully over recent years and the crowds have dwindled because it never worked.

Riordan, Stokes, Murray, Liam Miller, Garry O'Connor, de Graaf - captain of a Dutch Eredivision side, and so on...

They didn't put bums on seats and didn't get us any silverware but were all ambitious signings.

Matty, unusually I have to disagree with you this time. I believe its impossible to say if these players put bums on seats or not, we don't know what our crowds would have been if they hadn't signed. IMO it's a stretch to call IM a marquee signing. Stokes was an undoubted success, we made £1mm from him & we would quite possibly have been relegated without GOC's goals last season. I think EDG was only real failure & I don't believe the crowds dwindled because of these players. I believe they dwindled because we were rubbish on the park, due to a large extent through signing cheap players (all we could afford) who would never have got near a Hibs jersey a decade ago.

Ray_
22-11-2012, 04:30 PM
So Hibs go on a long winning run and people will still not go back until confidence is restored in those running the club? It's ALL about what happens in the pitch. Those fans who want to be 'wooed' back like some tragic jilted bride probably wouldn't bother their backsides going along anyway.

That is one almighty big IF.

Devilstorment
22-11-2012, 10:33 PM
What we have to acknowledge is that crowds will undoubtedly be down because everyones income is being squeezed at the moment. When my gas and electric jumps up £80 a month it makes going to games, spending money in the shop etc harder (good thing i got my season ticket!) so regardless of how well the team is playing on the park, some people will simply not be able to attend as many games as we would all like.

I think the tache needs to offer some incentives to get bums in the seats (but without alienating season ticket holders). I'm not sure what this would look like though!

Hopefully our lower crowds are just a hangover from the cup final embarrassment and that a lot of people will take up the half season ticket offer.

big-mo
23-11-2012, 05:44 PM
There have been a number of issues raised on this thread regarding the recent set of results. While the figures for the last year are not what many fans and shareholders would have hoped for, in my opinion they are not as bad as I was expecting. I would like to list a number of factors that lead me his optimistic view.

The 9% reduction in wages/turnover to 60% is a positive and should be welcomes, an essential for all clubs who wish to become self-sustainable.

For a large part of the past year the club have been paying for two sets of management/coaches, while this is far from acceptable, it is a situation that I hope we should not experience next season. (Had the board accepted reported offers for the last management team when offered, we would maybe have been in profit rather than deficit this year).

Transfer fees in the current figures were only £100k where as we received £1m in the previous year. We may also still be due money for Osborne which would be included in next years figures. While it is not desirable that any club should be totally reliant on selling players to beak even, we have been trading without that stream of income that we have benefited from in the past.
Our infrastructure investment is now complete and we should not expect to have any other major outlay for say the next 20 years, unlike the majority of our competitors, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell and that other lot.

Our debt is based on mortgages on the stadium etc. The club is paying a significant amount each month (20k) plus four additional payments per year. A large part of the debt will be paid off in less than six years time, while they should have another reduction in total liability in July 2020 and have it completely paid off in 11 years when only £1.37m will be due.

There are a number of income stream that any club can look to gain from, season tickets and cash at the gate, income from paying customers from additional games, (cup runs etc), sponsorship and advertising (diminishing in current climate but can be increased dependant on team’s success), merchandising (can also be increased depending on success), cash back from success (cup and league placing prize money), and the transfer of players.
While many of these are dependant on the success on the park they are also influenced by market forces and the strength or weaknesses of the opposition. I am sure that this year’s performance will show significant financial benefit for next year results, (that is of course dependant on us being able to maintain that momentum). The difference between finishing 11th and 3rd is somewhere near to our trading loss, 2nd place would result in a profit without even taking into account increased crowds, European places etc.


We have also been reading and hearing daily in the media that the Scottish Football is dying and is cr*p. While I agreed it is not where we used to be, I believe it is not as bad as they are making out, we are only a small country and the world of football has moved on, it is now a global product. We are unfortunate that we live next to one of the biggest leagues in the world (not necessarily the best IMO). Every kid in Scotland who is interested in football could name nearly every player in the EPL and would maybe hard pushed to name all the players in their own local SPL first team. There are a lot of good games played in Scotland but when you watch a game on TV with only a few thousand there, it is bound to look worse that at a run of the mill EPL game with 30 to 50 thousand attending. The problem is convincing the ordinarily Scottish football punter to get along and watch a game. (Hopefully they would not be put off by one poor performance, but that is what watching Hibs is all about).


The loss of Rangers in the SPL should not affect Hibs as bad as it does other teams, I believe that 10% of our season ticket holders did not attend OF games for various reasons, we also incur extra security and policing costs, plus you can guarantee it would not be played at 3pm on a Saturday. There was more Hibs fans at the recent St Mirren game than were at the Celtic game at the end of last season. I don't think that it will cause a overall financial loss to us: more competitive league and an almost guaranteed extra place up the league.


As for a marquee signing, I am not sure that there is anyone who would be enticed to move to Scotland that would result in any significance increase in attendances at ER, well not in the numbers to pay his fee and wages. We are not in the days of George Best, if winning team on the pitch does not bring fans back, signing a ‘past it’ big name won’t either.

Sorry for the rant but I am a glass half full guy.

weecounty hibby
23-11-2012, 07:59 PM
For the Hearts fans looking in, we have a brand new stadium which makes up most of the debt (you have a £24m debt and need a new stadium)

The Stadium is in the name of Hibernian Football Club.

The debt is largely made up of:

B) £2.8m payable at £20k per month and £1.6m in Aug 2018
C) £1.37m due in Oct 2023
D) £2.5m due as a one off payment in 2020.


I really cannot make it any more simple than the above. Copy and paste it into JKB if you want.
I had two bitter Huns who work for me telling me that Hibs are the next team to go bust and that they have it on good authority, probably some fat Hun with teeth missing and just finishing off his Buckfast, and were telling me that it's all down to not having them in the SPL. I will now use this info to enlighten them and, if at all possible under our strict code of business conduct, discipline them for being twats. Not strictly a disciplinary offence but as they are Huns it will do for now!

judas
23-11-2012, 08:40 PM
How much of this is due to Tom Farmer? If any of it then why doesnt he just right it off as an investment to help his team? After all it was his board who appointed the managers that created the mess of the last 2 to 3 years (or more!).

Sit doon.

weejimbo
24-11-2012, 12:13 AM
People need to stop comparing us to the yams regarding this debt issue. Of course we are in a much healthier financial position, u would be an idiot to think otherwise. What is worrying me is the here and now. We are challenging for the league and our attendances are only up marginally on last season and we have made big losses the past two seasons as we rely on selling players too much.

Nobody is buying merchandise etc and the product of the scottish game is so pish we rely almost entirely on people paying week in week out for tickets. We need to begin a campaign to drive attendances up. I mean ffs, the yams sold out a meaningless game against St Mirren because they rallied their fans, why the f*** can't we do the same?

I would have thought our recent form would bring back the part timers, clearly i was wrong

matty_f
24-11-2012, 01:19 AM
The Yams never sold out. I am pretty sure we'd sell out if we thought it was our last game as well.

There's no comparison- the yams are tramps at death's door.

We are Hibernian F.C.


Therein lies the difference.

Lucius Apuleius
24-11-2012, 05:28 AM
People need to stop comparing us to the yams regarding this debt issue. Of course we are in a much healthier financial position, u would be an idiot to think otherwise. What is worrying me is the here and now. We are challenging for the league and our attendances are only up marginally on last season and we have made big losses the past two seasons as we rely on selling players too much.

We are a selling club, always have been, always will be. We have never had large enough crowds to cover our costs. This is a loss, no argument there, it is not however a BIG loss in relative terms. It is manageable, as all debt should be.

Nobody is buying merchandise etc and the product of the scottish game is so pish we rely almost entirely on people paying week in week out for tickets. We need to begin a campaign to drive attendances up. I mean ffs, the yams sold out a meaningless game against St Mirren because they rallied their fans, why the f*** can't we do the same?

Over generalization. Of course people are buying merchandise otherwise the shop would be permanently shut. We also do rely on people turning up and paying, cannot argue with that, I guess that is what customers do. The yams did not sell out for a meaningless game. It was neither sold out nor meaningless.

I would have thought our recent form would bring back the part timers, clearly i was wrong

Not sure what you consider a part timer. Many people have different perspectives and different levels of commitment to Hibs. The crowds are improving. If we continue to improve, and by that I would be happy to be top 6 this season, then reasonable crowds will come back. Unrealistic expectations will mean people will not come back. How many excuses have we had from people on here saying they would be back after such and such happened? Where are they? A lot are still making excuses. They should have no need to make excuses in my opinion. If they don't want to go it is their perogative and nobody is going to force them.

BTW, I won't be there today either.