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SJNB Hibby
19-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Two divisions of 12, that split into 3 divisions of 8 after 22 matches
I presume the middle group of 8 start from scratch, so a team 10-12 points clear of 12th after 22 gets to start over and could be relegated??
How *****in complicated are they trying to make this? Or have I missed something?:confused::confused:

euansdad
19-11-2012, 05:19 PM
You know something, I couldn't be arsed to try work that out. I mean........ Really?

northseahibby
19-11-2012, 05:21 PM
Two divisions of 12, that split into 3 divisions of 8 after 22 matches
I presume the middle group of 8 start from scratch, so a team 10-12 points clear of 12th after 22 gets to start over and could be relegated??
How *****in complicated are they trying to make this? Or have I missed something?:confused::confused:

I know I am getting on a bit but that has me totally bamboozled

Saorsa
19-11-2012, 05:26 PM
I've seen better ideas posted by folk on here who have nothing tae do with running fitba.


Help ma boab.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 05:26 PM
That sounds interesting.

22 games then home and away after the splits.

36 games each.

Top 8 play for the Championship and Europe. Middle 8 play to avoid relegation from, and to gain promotion to, SPL1. Bottom 8 play to avoid relegation to the SFL?

This would ensure an even split of home and away games and it certainly would reduce the number of meaningless games.

On the face of it, it's better than a 14 team division with a split after 26 games, which would just give us a bigger version of what we have now with more pointless fixtures.

Definitely worth exploring further, imo.

NYHibby
19-11-2012, 05:33 PM
This idea is used elsewhere successfully. It is not like it is something they randomly came up with one afternoon.

Pretty Boy
19-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Whats so difficult about an 18 team top league, play each other home and away which equals 34 games then play all cup games at the weekend.

Oh wait we simply must have 4 OF games a season of course.

theonlywayisup
19-11-2012, 05:38 PM
That sounds interesting.

22 games then home and away after the splits.

36 games each.

Top 8 play for the Championship and Europe. Middle 8 play to avoid relegation from and to gain promotion to, SPL1. Bottom 8 play to avoid relegation to the SFL?

This would ensure an even split of home and away games and it certainly would reduce the number of meaningless games.

On the face of it, it's better than a 14 team division with a split after 26 games, which would just give us a bigger version of what we have now with more pointless fixtures.

Definitely worth exploring further, imo.

Was actually discussing this at work today. I like the idea, assuming that the points for the first 22 games do not get carried over to the last 14 games.

That way, you play 22 games to get into position to play for Europe and the Title or to fight relegation. Then with points reset to zero, you have a 14 game sprint to the title. Certainly will generate more interest. I hope that one of the conditions is that you need to retain the same players for the pre and post split - i.e. you cannot go out and buy a new team, just because you just made the top 8.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 05:42 PM
The more I consider it, the more I like it.

Making the top 8 will be much more important compared to the minor benefits of being in the top 6 currently.

The top 8 get rewarded with 14 bigger games, which will be very lucrative.

Every point in the middle 8 games will be massive because potentially, 4 teams could be relegated/promoted.

The importance of the bottom 8 fixtures will depend on the relegation/promotion arrangements with the SFL.

I really like it.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Whats so difficult about an 18 team top league, play each other home and away which equals 34 games then play all cup games at the weekend.

Oh wait we simply must have 4 OF games a season of course.

Far too many meaningless games.

Attendances would be rock bottom.

GoldenEagle
19-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Whats so difficult about an 18 team top league, play each other home and away which equals 34 games then play all cup games at the weekend.

Oh wait we simply must have 4 OF games a season of course.


What's difficult about it is that Hibs and similar clubs would lose between £1.5m - £2.0m per season through not having a TV deal on par with what we have now and losing home games v the bigger SPL clubs.

We'd have part time football in no time IMO.


I like the proposal.

SJNB Hibby
19-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Was actually discussing this at work today. I like the idea, assuming that the points for the first 22 games do not get carried over to the last 14 games.

That way, you play 22 games to get into position to play for Europe and the Title or to fight relegation. Then with points reset to zero, you have a 14 game sprint to the title. Certainly will generate more interest. I hope that one of the conditions is that you need to retain the same players for the pre and post split - i.e. you cannot go out and buy a new team, just because you just made the top 8.

I presume points for SPL 1 and 3 WILL get carried over as there are no new teams-be bloody exciting though if they didnt-14 game dash for the title:aok:

JeMeSouviens
19-11-2012, 05:53 PM
I presume points for SPL 1 and 3 WILL get carried over as there are no new teams-be bloody exciting though if they didnt-14 game dash for the title:aok:

The Belgians have something like that, I think they get to keep half their existing points.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 05:53 PM
I presume points for SPL 1 and 3 WILL get carried over as there are no new teams-be bloody exciting though if they didnt-14 game dash for the title:aok:

That sounds great, but it's too radical for our lot.

jgl07
19-11-2012, 06:33 PM
Whats so difficult about an 18 team top league, play each other home and away which equals 34 games then play all cup games at the weekend.

Oh wait we simply must have 4 OF games a season of course.

How about a 16-team League with local League Cup qualifying groups with four teams per group. That would give 15+3 home games and 36 in total. It will ne necessary to invite a couple of Senior Clubs to balance the numbers.

The media would get their four OF matches a season (eventually?) and there would be four Hibs-Hearts derbies a season (maybe?).

The groups could be Glasgow (Celtic, Partick, Sevco, Queens Park), Edinburgh (Hibs, Hearts, Livingston, Spartans), Fife (Dunfermline, Raith, Cowdenbeath, East Fife), Stirlingshire (Falkirk, Stirling Albion, East Stirling, Stenhousemuir), Tayside (Dundee, Dundee United, St Johnstone, plus one), etc.

NAE NOOKIE
19-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Two divisions of 12, that split into 3 divisions of 8 after 22 matches
I presume the middle group of 8 start from scratch, so a team 10-12 points clear of 12th after 22 gets to start over and could be relegated??
How *****in complicated are they trying to make this? Or have I missed something?:confused::confused:


Not that complicated and could hopefully lead to some exciting matches post split. It would be great if all points were wiped at the split too. Its mean and totally unfair to teams with loads of points at the end of the first round of matches.

Who cares about fair when you can have exciting ... everybody will start the season on zero points and knowing whats at stake after all.

I like it ...... :devil:

lord bunberry
19-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Not that complicated and could hopefully lead to some exciting matches post split. It would be great if all points were wiped at the split too. Its mean and totally unfair to teams with loads of points at the end of the first round of matches.

Who cares about fair when you can have exciting ... everybody will start the season on zero points and knowing whats at stake after all.

I like it ...... :devil:


I like it as well but what's the betting that they won't zero the points and it will be the same miserable two horse race as before

alexedwards
19-11-2012, 06:44 PM
It's pants! And designed to let the SPL keep their desired format of a 12-team top league.
Only the SPL can sell an increased league without increasing the size of the league.
SIXTEEN is the only way and favoured by over 80% of fans.
This time if they don't listen to what fans want the can expect a mass exodus - for sure.
Plenty fans on the verge of leaving and looking for an excuse to do just that - this is perfect for just that.

frazeHFC
19-11-2012, 06:44 PM
I think the proposal is daft. After 22 games you could be 9th, but only 3 points off a European spot, but then your season is over already with 14 games left.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 06:47 PM
It's pants! And designed to let the SPL keep their desired format of a 12-team top league.
Only the SPL can sell an increased league without increasing the size of the league.
SIXTEEN is the only way and favoured by over 80% of fans.
This time if they don't listen to what fans want the can expect a mass exodus - for sure.
Plenty fans on the verge of leaving and looking for an excuse to do just that - this is perfect for just that.

16 teams would give us 30 games, 8 less than we currently have.

That would equate to a 20% reduction in income.

I don't believe 80% of fans want that.

Mikey
19-11-2012, 06:48 PM
16 teams would give us 30 games, 8 less than we currently have.

That would equate to a 20% reduction in income.

I don't believe 80% of fans want that.

Certainly not 80% of fans who have got a clue.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 06:54 PM
It's pants! And designed to let the SPL keep their desired format of a 12-team top league.
Only the SPL can sell an increased league without increasing the size of the league.
SIXTEEN is the only way and favoured by over 80% of fans.
This time if they don't listen to what fans want the can expect a mass exodus - for sure.
Plenty fans on the verge of leaving and looking for an excuse to do just that - this is perfect for just that.

The season wouldn't be over.

Your club would have 14 more important games to avoid relegation.

And, can you imagine the excitement of the games leading up to the split if your scenario came to pass?

Crowds would increase and interest would be extremely high.

14 teams is just a bigger version of what we currently have.

16 teams gives us too few games.

If there were 18 teams, the clubs in positions 7 to 14 or so, would have absolutely nothing to play for before spring arrived.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 06:54 PM
Certainly not 80% of fans who have got a clue.

:faf:

Billy Whizz
19-11-2012, 06:55 PM
Currently post split, all the clubs in the bottom 6's crowds go down. There are only 1/2 teams with something to play for.
If they go bottom 4/top 4 of SPL 2, teams will be fighting for their lives, crowds will go up, TV will be interested in these games. Sounds a no brainier to me.
Lets just hope we can get into the top 8

Finbar
19-11-2012, 06:56 PM
What we've had for the last 20 years or something is two teams spending ten times as much on wages as anyone else. Until that changes we'll never have proper competition. Changing the format is just window dressing.

BroxburnHibee
19-11-2012, 06:59 PM
Any league setup that includes a split will continue to make the SPL look ridiculous.

Stupid stupid idea.

Why is it the self proclaimed 'Greatest League In The World' can cope with a 20 team league?

Is there loads of meaningless games then after Christmas?

Still doesn't stop Sky pumping millions in.

SJNB Hibby
19-11-2012, 07:01 PM
I think the proposal is daft. After 22 games you could be 9th, but only 3 points off a European spot, but then your season is over already with 14 games left.

Aah but no-its not over-you're points are wiped out and now you're fighting to avoid relegation:na na:

Pretty Boy
19-11-2012, 07:05 PM
Aah but no-its not over-you're points are wiped out and now you're fighting to avoid relegation:na na:

Has it actually been confirmed that points would be wiped out at the time of the split? I can't see Celtic going for that somehow.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2012, 07:10 PM
Why is it the self proclaimed 'Greatest League In The World' can cope with a 20 team league?



They cope for a number of reasons.

1. Their population is much greater.
2. The players are much better.
3 Demand to see the teams outstrips supply.

I remember the First division before the premier division arrived in 1975 and I can assure you, we regularly played in front of less than 6000 towards the end of the season, and that's with a team consisting of players like Stanton, Schaedler, Blackley, Brownlie and Bremner.

And that's a big team like Hibs. You can imagine the crowds the likes of Airdrie and Partick etc were getting.

Billy Whizz
19-11-2012, 07:15 PM
Has it actually been confirmed that points would be wiped out at the time of the split? I can't see Celtic going for that somehow.

The top 8 retain their points. It's the bottom 4 / top 4 that start with zero points, as effectively they are in a new league

Mister P
19-11-2012, 07:19 PM
This is classic misdirection.
Whilst everyone's debating the pros and cons, the Huns will be promoted at the end of next season because of this. All they have to do next year is finish in the top half, gain entry into the middle 8, then promote from there. So within 2 years they're back in the spl, debt free with a 50,000+ fanbase. Does anyone genuinely think they would fail to achieve this?

Billy Whizz
19-11-2012, 07:26 PM
This is classic misdirection.
Whilst everyone's debating the pros and cons, the Huns will be promoted at the end of next season because of this. All they have to do next year is finish in the top half, gain entry into the middle 8, then promote from there. So within 2 years they're back in the spl, debt free with a 50,000+ fanbase. Does anyone genuinely think they would fail to achieve this?

Johnny boy, they won't be in SPL 2 next season if it happens. The best that can do next year is league 2 as it stands. Doesn't really speed up Rangers entry back into the SPL.

Mister P
19-11-2012, 07:31 PM
Fair do's, I'm very cynical these days. But as someone mentioned previously, its just window dressing. U can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig!

Leishy1995
19-11-2012, 07:32 PM
If they wipe the top 8 points to then it will become the most exciting league in a long time.

does the middle 8 involve the bottom 4 and top 4? And how does the other 8 do it?

Billy Whizz
19-11-2012, 07:33 PM
Fair do's, I'm very cynical these days. But as someone mentioned previously, its just window dressing. U can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig!

Yup, bit like giving a glamourous haircut to a plain jane

Mister P
19-11-2012, 07:33 PM
It depends on proposals for who gets to start in the new spl 1/2. They could opt to 'invite' rangers in?

NAE NOOKIE
19-11-2012, 07:34 PM
Any league setup that includes a split will continue to make the SPL look ridiculous.

Stupid stupid idea.

Why is it the self proclaimed 'Greatest League In The World' can cope with a 20 team league?

Is there loads of meaningless games then after Christmas?

Still doesn't stop Sky pumping millions in.


Sorry Broxburn but no it wont .... I've never been able to understand why folk get bent out of shape about having a split. Yes 7th can finish with more points than 6th .... but thats coz 6th was playing the 5 best clubs and 7th wasnt.

England can cope with a 20 team league because it has a population of 50 odd million people squeezed into an area not much bigger than Scotland. To just be in the EPL is a big deal for most of the clubs ... thats why they can still generate interest in mid table games. Thats why a club with no history to speak of and no football fan base can still get home crowds which would make them the second biggest team in the SPL. ...... I speak of Wigan Athletic of course.

Comparing the SPL to leagues in countries the size of England is not very scientific. As far as I can see we have to make the league more exciting with what we have and if that means a split then fine. Your Wigan fan doesnt need that because his next 6 home games could be Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Everton and Aston Villa.

The guy with a season ticket for Dundee can look forward to Hibs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, ICT and Dundee Utd. Nothing wrong with that ... but you can see why mid table footy could hold more attraction in the EPL.

In order to generate interest in a small league you have to be inventive and make the games have as much meaning as possible ... IMO thats what the SPL is at least trying to do.

Prof. Shaggy
19-11-2012, 08:00 PM
Since it's inception the SPL has been fixed by the four games a season arrangement.
This has guaranteed all the non-OF teams points total is depressed by having to play the rich-kids a total of 8 matches. The OF were more or guaranteed to be in the top two places whether there was a "gulf in class" or they a wee bit better than the rest. In the last decade I can only think of one club (Aberdeen) which has out-scored either half of the OF over the course of one season.

There must be no return to this inherently uncompetitive set up.

The only basis on which I will support this proposal is that all teams start on 0 points after the split.
Having said that my preference remains for a 16-team league with some enhanced set-up in the League Cup.

mca
19-11-2012, 08:16 PM
Having Read all your comments on this new league set-up.. - im still none the wiser.. :na na: think i need some of the - what the powers to be are on - to help me work this one out :smokin ...

Eyrie
19-11-2012, 08:27 PM
I've been in favour of this for over twenty years, so to finally read that it is being seriously considered is long overdue in my opinion.

All that's missing is to put the remaining 18 teams into a national league and have that as the intermediate level between the 24 team SPL and regional leagues.

LeighLoyal
19-11-2012, 09:03 PM
This is 100% designed so the cheating huns can leapfrog their way into an SFL1 a year ahead of schedule and should be thrown out. Any changes should start in 2015, not next season. Have they learned nothing from the summer? Laughable.

CallumLaidlaw
19-11-2012, 09:23 PM
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/aberdeen/201526-spl-reconstruction-plans-identical-to-really-boring-austrian-experiment/

Crazyhorse
19-11-2012, 09:30 PM
Sorry Broxburn but no it wont .... I've never been able to understand why folk get bent out of shape about having a split. Yes 7th can finish with more points than 6th .... but thats coz 6th was playing the 5 best clubs and 7th wasnt.

England can cope with a 20 team league because it has a population of 50 odd million people squeezed into an area not much bigger than Scotland. To just be in the EPL is a big deal for most of the clubs ... thats why they can still generate interest in mid table games. Thats why a club with no history to speak of and no football fan base can still get home crowds which would make them the second biggest team in the SPL. ...... I speak of Wigan Athletic of course.

Comparing the SPL to leagues in countries the size of England is not very scientific. As far as I can see we have to make the league more exciting with what we have and if that means a split then fine. Your Wigan fan doesnt need that because his next 6 home games could be Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Everton and Aston Villa.

The guy with a season ticket for Dundee can look forward to Hibs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, ICT and Dundee Utd. Nothing wrong with that ... but you can see why mid table footy could hold more attraction in the EPL.

In order to generate interest in a small league you have to be inventive and make the games have as much meaning as possible ... IMO thats what the SPL is at least trying to do.

You are right of course. SPL v EPL is comparing apples and pears. The only real point of similarity is that Scotland also has 4 senior leagues (and it shouldn't).

In terms of structure Scotland needs to look at Belgium, Sweden etc. To take Belgium as an example they revamped their setup several years ago and indeed have gone through several different formats in recent times and seem to have it fairly right at the moment. Their domestic player quality has certainly improved and the race for the title is usually between 4 or 5 teams.

Warning - it is a 16 team league but it does have splits to keep it interesting.

euansdad
19-11-2012, 11:09 PM
Still think that as a compromise and evento **** up the old firm, England and Scotland should scrap their respective league cups which have become devalued and set up a 'British Cup' competition. Would have public interest and particularly so in Scotland where we would live the opportunity to put one over an English club

Eyrie
19-11-2012, 11:24 PM
This is 100% designed so the cheating huns can leapfrog their way into an SFL1 a year ahead of schedule and should be thrown out. Any changes should start in 2015, not next season. Have they learned nothing from the summer? Laughable.
If it started next summer then the Huns would still be in the national league of 18 teams and would have to get promoted from there in 13/14 to the lower 12, then get into the playoff group in 14/15 so it would be 15/16 before they could be back in the top twelve. Which is the same time frame that exists under the current league set up.

Only way to speed up their unwelcome return would be if enough Division One and Division Two clubs either declined to join the new structure or didn't meet any entrance criteria.

WindyMiller
19-11-2012, 11:32 PM
It depends on proposals for who gets to start in the new spl 1/2. They could opt to 'invite' rangers in?


It was clearly stated that the 28 teams would be there on merit only.

WindyMiller
19-11-2012, 11:39 PM
I've been in favour of this for over twenty years, so to finally read that it is being seriously considered is long overdue in my opinion.

All that's missing is to put the remaining 18 teams into a national league and have that as the intermediate level between the 24 team SPL and regional leagues.


I'd drop the bottom 18 teams into regional leagues, incorporating EoS, Highland and Junior leagues. Perhaps as many as 6 leagues, with play-offs to decide who comes into SPL2.

Steve-O
20-11-2012, 07:17 AM
Far too many meaningless games.

Attendances would be rock bottom.

Like in the EPL with 20 teams?

Edit - I see that's been mentioned already. However I don't see the major difference on the specific point of 'meaningless' games? If you get bottom 6 and are not fighting relegation, you end up with meaningless games and attendances are rock bottom.

Attendances are hardly massive right now and supposedly the league is jam-packed with meaningFUL games?

I don't think the split is really 'interesting' at all and I would genuinely favour the Australian system over this latest proposal - i.e. however many teams in the league, top 4 or 6 go into play offs to decide the overall champions. Yes that may sound ludicrous at first too, but it does honestly generate massive excitement and keeps a lot of teams in the title race until much later than in Scotland in recent times.

JeMeSouviens
20-11-2012, 10:19 AM
This is 100% designed so the cheating huns can leapfrog their way into an SFL1 a year ahead of schedule and should be thrown out. Any changes should start in 2015, not next season. Have they learned nothing from the summer? Laughable.

Doncaster was explicitly asked this twice by Tom English on Sportsound last night.

First time (would "Rangers" be invited?) the answer was "meritocracy, mumble, mumble, flannel".

Second time (so they definitely won't be involved?) - "I wouldn't think so, ..., flannel, flannel".

My reading of that is that the SPL clubs know any deal that fast tracks the Huns is a non-starter but Doncaster could hardly bring himself to say so.

bighairyfaeleith
20-11-2012, 11:02 AM
Here is a thought, how about if we play less games each season then we might actually increase attendances as

1. Season books could be cheaper
2. Less games to go to will make people more able to attend as they can afford to go to that many games
3. Less games means players are fresher, we could perhaps even have a winter break, meaning a better standard of football to watch

More games means fans spending more money, which they won't, you can put all the fancy ideas you want on it, more games is the wrong way to go for me.

Spike Mandela
20-11-2012, 11:11 AM
Just put Rangers back in the SPL and all this talk of reconstruction will go away.

Too many people getting het up over all the jiber jabber about splits, meaningless games, tv income, SPL2s etc. There is one agenda at play here...Get Rangers to the top league asap.

Phil MaGlass
20-11-2012, 11:12 AM
I have looked at it and think its a good idea, bottom 4 playoff with top 4 in division 1 great.Keeps the fans on their toes and games exciting until the end.Spreads the wealth a bit to the lower division and may up the crowds for the last games of the season. I would have liked to have seen a 14 or 16 team league but to me this is interesting.

SJNB Hibby
20-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Here we go-Huns back in the SPL:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/second-tier-candidates-sought-as-spl-agree-to-changes.19466962 (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/second-tier-candidates-sought-as-spl-agree-to-changes.19466962)

:rolleyes:

jgl07
20-11-2012, 12:39 PM
This is classic misdirection.
Whilst everyone's debating the pros and cons, the Huns will be promoted at the end of next season because of this. All they have to do next year is finish in the top half, gain entry into the middle 8, then promote from there. So within 2 years they're back in the spl, debt free with a 50,000+ fanbase. Does anyone genuinely think they would fail to achieve this?

1. They do not get 50,000+ plus crowds.

2. They will not be debt free. They will lose money hand over fist in the next two to three years. The same forces that pushed them into debt before will apply once more.

3. Does it make that much difference if they are back in two years or three years? The important thing is to get the League structure right and the distribution of cash more fair. Both can be achieved without Sevco there to veto it.

.Sean.
20-11-2012, 12:47 PM
Top league of 16 with play-offs/splits for europe and relegation.

Second league of 12.

Incorporate 4 or 5 regional leagues, whichever way best to set them up from the North, an East, a Central, a West and a South league made of the top junior sides and the remaining current SFL sides and get them involved in a pyramid structure. That's what I'd like to see. I reckon there are Junior sides, particularly through in the West where crowds are really decent for clubs of their size who deserve a chance over clubs who have been kicking about aimlessly in the 3rd division season after season knowing full well even if they finish bottom their senior league status isn't in jeopardy. It's a joke. Time for change and it's long overdue.

Ryan91
20-11-2012, 12:56 PM
16 teams would give us 30 games, 8 less than we currently have.

That would equate to a 20% reduction in income.

I don't believe 80% of fans want that.

30 game season and then split the league in two and then have a playoff league for the championship and relegation, 8 more games, 4 at home, 4 away? Would that work out nicely?

MyJo
20-11-2012, 02:04 PM
30 game season and then split the league in two and then have a playoff league for the championship and relegation, 8 more games, 4 at home, 4 away? Would that work out nicely?

Splitting the league into two would require 14 more games to play an even amount of home and away ties, meaning a 44 game season unless your suggesting a split of 8 with random allocations of who gets home ties for the last round of matches which is worse than what we have at the moment.

I like the two leagues of 12 idea and the split the way it has been suggested as long as points are either wiped after the first round or teams are given bonus points for their finishing positions to take into the playoff round, ie first gets to start with 8 points, second with 7, third with 6 and so on.

Beneath that there should be one more 16 or 18 team national league before splitting into regional leagues below that