Fan ownership

[bingo70]

Can anyone explain how this fan ownership thing works and if they see it as the long term replacement for STF?

The reason i ask is from what i've read about the boy at Hearts wanting to set it up and i think St Mirren are looking at doing the same but to me it looks completely unworkable.

I know it won't be a case of having to ask thousands of fans before a decision is made but it's hard enough to get people to commit to £40 per month for a season ticket where the punters actually get a tangeable benefit so how do these clubs think they can attract enough fans to make this work? Also if a fan says they want to donate X amount per month, if the club then starts to lose money do they then have to start to donate more to make up the losses?

I think STF has says he sees the club being run by a trust in the future, is that basically the same thing?

To me it sounds like a stupid idea but i'm guessing there must be more to it that i just don't understand so hopefully someone can explain it to me better.

[euansdad]

In the same boat as you mate. How would it work? If its the fans who own the club, who would ha e the final say? How would they implement things?

[bingo70]

In the same boat as you mate. How would it work? If its the fans who own the club, who would ha e the final say? How would they implement things?

I think they appoint a chairman or board to make the day to day decisions but if you're talking about employing someone or people then they'd be in a relatively high profile job so the salary would need to reflect that which means they'd need thousands of fans to commit to a decent whack for this to be workable.

I understand how this works at clubs like Barca and real madrid who have got massive supports but i just don't see how it can be workable for clubs with smaller fan bases.

There must be a decent argument for it though as i saw on the news when it was going tits up with Hearts there has been an organisation set up to encourage clubs to go this way, I just dinnae get it though.

[Keith_M]

Personally, I'm all for the 'Benevolent Dictatorship' model as at least things still get done.

However, if a lot more fans had shares and there were fewer large shareholders, it may be that at least the fans could vote out an incumbant chairman if he was leading them on the road to ruin.

[HiBremian]

It's kinda how things are here in Germany.

But obviously it doesn't work nearly as well as the Scottish model :cb

[bingo70]

Personally, I'm all for the 'Benevolent Dictatorship' model as at least things still get done.

However, if a lot more fans had shares and there were fewer large shareholders, it may be that at least the fans could vote out an incumbant chairman if he was leading them on the road to ruin.

I love Hibs and would love to donate what i could but i know absolutely hee-haw about running a business and you only have to read here after a defeat to know how many dafties there are that are passionate football fans. I think i'd rather rely on people more intelligent than me and other football fans that could be voting out good business people for the wrong reasons.

I don't know if you're talking about Petrie or not but he's possibly a good example, if it was down to fans voting a few years ago he'd probably have been voted out but if you look at our financial situation now compared to others i think he's done a pretty good job, although there's obviously some pretty big decisions that could be questioned.

[bingo70]

It's kinda how things are here in Germany.

But obviously it doesn't work nearly as well as the Scottish model :cb

How does it work then?

Does it not work in Germany as the clubs have got massive followings? Do you think it would work here with clubs getting around 10000 fans every week?

[Keith_M]

I love Hibs and would love to donate what i could but i know absolutely hee-haw about running a business and you only have to read here after a defeat to know how many dafties there are that are passionate football fans. I think i'd rather rely on people more intelligent than me and other football fans that could be voting out good business people for the wrong reasons.

I don't know if you're talking about Petrie or not but he's possibly a good example, if it was down to fans voting a few years ago he'd probably have been voted out but if you look at our financial situation now compared to others i think he's done a pretty good job, although there's obviously some pretty big decisions that could be questioned.


I agree, there would be that danger. I was actually more thinking of the Romanov situation, though.

[Moulin Yarns]

On 2 July 2010 it was announced a that chairman Peter McKenzie had agreed to sell his majority shareholding to the Stirling Albion Supporters Trust. Thus the BuyStirlingAlbion campaign which was launched in May 2009 had finally reached a conclusion. Stirling Albion are now the first and only Scottish Football League club to be 100% owned by a fans trust.

http://www.safctrust.org.uk/

[HiBremian]

Here, there's laws about sports clubs. They're not seen simply as "businesses" but as community sports organisations. This means that they need to be at least 50% owned by local people, ie fans. It could also be that they are expected to fulfill various social/sports functions (not certain about the law here) - Werder have all kinds of clubs going right down to bairns clubs, where mums/dads and their bairns go along for swimming, playgroups and, of course, football at all levels.

The fans' involvement seems to be what keeps the game focussed on their interests, especially with low ticket prices, but the whole community thing is what draws in the crowds. Obviously it takes years to build, but there's a strong sense in Bremen that the club belongs to the people (a lot easier with one city club - maybe something for Edinburgh in the near future :greengrin).

I can see it working in Scotland, but only after a long transition period, and a lot of official backing. I think there's a Scottish Fans Plan somewhere on the web with quite a lot of good ideas for that. As for attendances, the aim of a good plan would be to aim to make them grow in Scotland, and that Plan looks closely at that. Bear in mind that Scotland has one of the lowest attendance rates in proportion to stadium capacity in Europe, so it's not as if we'd have to build any new stadia. The other element is competition - it's been shown that a competitive league brings in the fans. With the Ugly Sisters, that's been one of Scotland's main problems.

Not saying we should just copy Germany, but I think we could learn a lot :wink:

[bingo70]

On 2 July 2010 it was announced a that chairman Peter McKenzie had agreed to sell his majority shareholding to the Stirling Albion Supporters Trust. Thus the BuyStirlingAlbion campaign which was launched in May 2009 had finally reached a conclusion. Stirling Albion are now the first and only Scottish Football League club to be 100% owned by a fans trust.

http://www.safctrust.org.uk/

They're probably not a great example of how it should work, In 2010 when they took over they were in the 1st division, now they're bottom of the 3rd Divison :wink:

Hope this boy at Hearts is successful with the takeover :greengrin

[Beefster]

Has there ever been a British example of fan ownership that could be classed as a success?

[LancashireHibby]

Has there ever been a British example of fan ownership that could be classed as a success?
AFC Wimbledon are probably the highest profile in that regard. I know they tried it at Brentford and it didn't go particularly well, although they did relinquish the club in far better shape than they bought it IIRC.

Whether it could be a success at Hibs would depend on how much we rely on STF tipping in cash to offset any deficit and whether that would be likely to continue as part owner with 10,000 others rather than the current situation. Nothing to say that STF couldn't retain the other 49% of shares with the fans having 51% if following the German model though.

[bingo70]

Here, there's laws about sports clubs. They're not seen simply as "businesses" but as community sports organisations. This means that they need to be at least 50% owned by local people, ie fans. It could also be that they are expected to fulfill various social/sports functions (not certain about the law here) - Werder have all kinds of clubs going right down to bairns clubs, where mums/dads and their bairns go along for swimming, playgroups and, of course, football at all levels.

The fans' involvement seems to be what keeps the game focussed on their interests, especially with low ticket prices, but the whole community thing is what draws in the crowds. Obviously it takes years to build, but there's a strong sense in Bremen that the club belongs to the people (a lot easier with one city club - maybe something for Edinburgh in the near future :greengrin).

I can see it working in Scotland, but only after a long transition period, and a lot of official backing. I think there's a Scottish Fans Plan somewhere on the web with quite a lot of good ideas for that. As for attendances, the aim of a good plan would be to aim to make them grow in Scotland, and that Plan looks closely at that. Bear in mind that Scotland has one of the lowest attendance rates in proportion to stadium capacity in Europe, so it's not as if we'd have to build any new stadia. The other element is competition - it's been shown that a competitive league brings in the fans. With the Ugly Sisters, that's been one of Scotland's main problems.

Not saying we should just copy Germany, but I think we could learn a lot :wink:

Cheers, it sounds like there would need to be a big culture change for it to work, maybe possible in the future but right now i think if Hearts go down this route they'd fail, that's basically what i was hoping to hear :greengrin


Has there ever been a British example of fan ownership that could be classed as a success?

According to the post above it sounds like that'd be unlikely.

[HiBremian]

Cheers, it sounds like there would need to be a big culture change for it to work, maybe possible in the future but right now i think if Hearts go down this route they'd fail, that's basically what i was hoping to hear :greengrin



According to the post above it sounds like that'd be unlikely.

Yep, think you're right there.

Just found that fan's plan:
http://fansfirstscotland.com/the-fansfirst-plan/

[Keith_M]

Yep, think you're right there.

Just found that fan's plan:
http://fansfirstscotland.com/the-fansfirst-plan/

I prefer their league setup suggestion to that proposed this week by the SFL. I really don't get this 16-10-16 thing. I think they've just came up with such strange numbers (two of 16 and one of 10?) so as to include all current clubs.

It's about time we made two national leagues (16 or 18) then got the remaining teams together with the Juniors, East Scotland and Highland leagues and made a series of regional leagues with the chance of promotion/relegation to the national leagues.

[Just Alf]

I prefer their league setup suggestion to that proposed this week by the SFL. I really don't get this 16-10-16 thing. I think they've just came up with such strange numbers (two of 16 and one of 10?) so as to include all current clubs.

It's about time we made two national leagues (16 or 18) then got the remaining teams together with the Juniors, East Scotland and Highland leagues and made a series of regional leagues with the chance of promotion/relegation to the national leagues.

This makes loads of sense

[SurferRosa]

I prefer their league setup suggestion to that proposed this week by the SFL. I really don't get this 16-10-16 thing. I think they've just came up with such strange numbers (two of 16 and one of 10?) so as to include all current clubs.

It's about time we made two national leagues (16 or 18) then got the remaining teams together with the Juniors, East Scotland and Highland leagues and made a series of regional leagues with the chance of promotion/relegation to the national leagues.

Exactly. :agree: That is the direction we should be heading.

Until the SPL loses its pandering to the OF and this obsession they seem to have about the league " splitting " though, it`ll never happen.

[keithkeith]

The Stirling Albion one was rushed through with problems. They were not the first to get it in place, Clyde FC are now a Community Interest Community and have over 400 members / owners. They appoint a Board who are delegated to run the Club day-to-day then they consult with their members / owners on the major decisions that they feel need owner involvement.

[lucky]

My take it on it is it is simple to set up as the ownership of the club goes into a trust. The club lives within its means and is run by an elected board of directors from the season ticket holders.

[oregonhibby]

It doesn't change the fundamentals of running a business in that living within means and paying tax etc goes on.

It does allow more input from the owners who are fans.

[oregonhibby]

It doesn't change the fundamentals of running a business in that living within means and paying tax etc goes on.

It does allow more input from the owners who are fans.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Nothing wrong with fans having a part ownership of their clubs and at least a seat on the board. The Germans as far as I know set out a number of years ago to reach the model they have now.

This is where government could perhaps get involved by setting up some sort of fund to help football clubs get closer to the community and improve their facilities ..... Why are stadiums lying unused for weeks at a time?

I bet the East Stand concourse could be turned into an indoor bowling alley on non match days and the pie stalls turned into a bar on those nights.

The FF concourse could be a live music venue. .... etc etc.

[oregonhibby]

It would require every fan to recognise with fan ownership that they need to support it fully. That would have to mean perhaps the Supporters Association move into the ground and run their business from their with all proceeds going to the Club, that supporters don't drink in the local hostelries but in the ground to maximise revenues for the Club. This will obviously cause some tension on that front.

The more money the Club makes the more it can spend, but then again nothing really changes except who owns it all.

[ballengeich]

At Stirling Albion there is a trust which fans can become members of for £10 a year. The trust is a co-operative organisation which owns the football club which is a separate company. The football club has to run on a break-even basis - it can only spend the money it brings in and has no debt. The original purchase was funded by various people putting up money as bonds to be repaid by the trust. To date all scheduled payments have been made. Once all the bond holders have been repaid the club's financial position will improve.

There's no reason in principle why Hibs couldn't run on the same basis.