James McClean of Sunderland FC Poppy Refusal

[essexhibee]

Refused to wear shirt with a poppy on before todays game with Everton. :cb

[hibsbollah]

It's absolutely his right not to. He'll no doubt be pilloried by those who harp on about freedom of speech in any other circumstances though...

[superbam]

Refused to wear shirt with a poppy on before todays game with Everton. :cb

He's from the Creggan estate in Derry. One can imagine it might be rather an awkward one for him.

[Ringothedog]

Refused to wear shirt with a poppy on before todays game with Everton. :cb

He will be playing for Celtic soon then :duck:

[clerriehibs]

It's absolutely his right not to. He'll no doubt be pilloried by those who harp on about freedom of speech in any other circumstances though...

:top marks

[Paisley Hibby]

It's absolutely his right not to. He'll no doubt be pilloried by those who harp on about freedom of speech in any other circumstances though...

Spot on mate.

[EuanH78]

A million page thread on kickback...

[Hibernia&Alba]

Poppy fascism isn't the way ahead. I buy one every year, but of course there are those from once colonised nations who mightn't have much sympathy for the British armed forces, be they Irish, Indian, of an African colony or Caribbean. British history is filled with contradiction and examples of good and bad, and divergent viewpoints from around the globe are understandable. There are countless deeds of pride and shame amongst every nation, and not least those nations that colonised peoples against their will.

[essexhibee]

Was just interested to hear other peoples views on the matter.

Personally I think its his choice to wear one if he wishes...not saying I like him doing that though...

[frazeHFC]

A million page thread on kickback...


It's steadily growing!

"disgraceful if true"
"****bag"


I don't understand why someone wouldn't wear a poppy on their shirt, but it's his own choice so not gonna say anything against the guy.

[Treadstone]

His choice of course . Would have more respect if his anti-British views were more consistent and universal than just the ones that suit him at certain times and are image and credibility related.

[OstKurve Hibs]

I come from edinburgh, have 2 grandads who fought in ww2 and i wouldnt wear one either !

[marinello59]

I have never felt that comfortable with the recent trend of making them an integral part o the kit. Personal choice should apply. Fair play to him although I choose to wear one.

[H113EE5]

Interesting to see if the unwashed honour the one minute silence tomorrow afternoon at darkhead. No doubt they'll have some excuse.... erses

Pacifist or not, we need to remember those brave men/women who gave their lives and parts of their bodies for something they thought was in our best interests.

[McIntosh]

He has the right not to wear one; however that right has been achieved by the sacrifice of anonymous ordinary millions. Maybe he has shown a form of ‘courage’ in this act but in no way is that comparable to the supreme physical and moral courage of the brave men and women who gave their lives defending freedom at its greatest moment of danger.

When I think of the courage of the men fighting on the Somme I am incredibly moved. I think you would have to be dead in side not to be - a very sad and disrespectful act, indeed.

[nonshinyfinish]

Poppy fascism isn't the way ahead. I buy one every year, but of course there are those from once colonised nations who mightn't have much sympathy for the British armed forces, be they Irish, Indian, of an African colony or Caribbean. British history is filled with contradiction and examples of good and bad, and divergent viewpoints from around the globe are understandable. There are countless deeds of pride and shame amongst every nation, and not least those nations that colonised peoples against their will.

:agree:

That what ought to be a solemn remembrance of the dead has been co-opted by some to signify unconditional, unquestioning support of the actions of British armed forces is pretty sickening too.

[superbam]

His choice of course . Would have more respect if his anti-British views were more consistent and universal than just the ones that suit him at certain times and are image and credibility related.

He is from a city where the british armed forces are famously rather less than heroes. Unfortunately the wearing of the poppy has become politicized and symbolises the honour of the armed forces as distinct from simply remembering the dead.

Even if he actually wanted to wear one I can imagine it may cause him and his family serious problems at home.

[Paisley Hibby]

He has the right not to wear one; however that right has been achieved by the sacrifice of anonymous ordinary millions. Maybe he has shown a form of ‘courage’ in this act but in no way is that comparable to the supreme physical and moral courage of the brave men and women who gave their lives defending freedom at its greatest moment of danger.

When I think of the courage of the men fighting on the Somme I am incredibly moved. I think you would have to be dead in side not to be - a very sad and disrespectful act, indeed.

They died so he has the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy.

[H113EE5]

His choice of course . Would have more respect if his anti-British views were more consistent and universal than just the ones that suit him at certain times and are image and credibility related.

and kept them to himself. Maybe he sould sign for some Turkish/Iranian/Thai/Chinese team that will allow him to articulate his views. :idiot:

[H113EE5]

They died so he has the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy.

:aok::aok::aok::aok::aok::aok::aok:

[Geo_1875]

Interesting to see if the unwashed honour the one minute silence tomorrow afternoon at darkhead. No doubt they'll have some excuse.... erses

Pacifist or not, we need to remember those brave men/women who gave their lives and parts of their bodies for something they thought was in our best interests.

What you mean is we need to be seen to remember them. I don't wear a poppy but I always make a donation in the poppy tin. I Don't believe that anybody should be forced to wear them by default.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

:agree:

That what ought to be a solemn remembrance of the dead has been co-opted by some to signify unconditional, unquestioning support of the actions of British armed forces is pretty sickening too.

:agree:


Have worn them in the past, certainly wouldn't now.

[Hibernia&Alba]

They died so he has the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy.

Who are 'they' who died for him? He may see the British army as a force of subjugation rather than freedom. In truth of course it has been both at various times, as often put into action as a coloniser than as a liberator. History is very complex and we are all shaped by its ramifications.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Isn't this the very point of a democratic society?

[Scouse Hibee]

Put a donation in the tin and choose not to wear the poppy myself, get asked by the same people in work every year, why I'm not wearing one!

[theleith hibby]

W.T.F they died for you WEAR IT

[Cabbage East]

W.T.F they died for you WEAR IT

Wow.

[superbam]

Who are 'they' who died for him? He may see the British army as a force of subjugation rather than freedom. In truth of course it has been both at various times, as often put into action as a coloniser than as a liberator. History is very complex and we are all shaped by its ramifications.

indeed, especially if you grew up down the road from the bogside.

[Scouse Hibee]

W.T.F they died for you WEAR IT


Why?

What does wearing it represent that donating and not wearing it doesn't?

[theleith hibby]

lets them know you care

[marinello59]

:agree:

That what ought to be a solemn remembrance of the dead has been co-opted by some to signify unconditional, unquestioning support of the actions of British armed forces is pretty sickening too.

That's certainly not the case with ex servicemen who wear it. Does anybody think that is the case apart from those who oppose it anyway?

[Scouse Hibee]

lets them know you care


Who's them, the dead people that you mentioned died for me?

What matters to me is what I do, not what other people think they know I have done or indeed assume that I haven't.

[theleith hibby]

no the ones that still live

[Gatecrasher]

people wear them for different reasons, i wear mine to show respect and appreciation to those who have defended our country and protected our freedom and rights, rights such as choosing to not wear one.

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's certainly not the case with ex servicemen who wear it. Does anybody think that is the case apart from those who oppose it anyway?

Rangers fans and their sympathisers! The whole remembrance cause has been hijacked and politicised by in Scotland by the xenophobes of their ilk. Anyone who questions war is a traitor in their book.

[Beefster]

That's certainly not the case with ex servicemen who wear it. Does anybody think that is the case apart from those who oppose it anyway?

Not really. It's generally those opposed to anything to do with the UK Armed Services that tend to bump their gums about how the poppy has been hijacked.

[theleith hibby]

true :not worth

[nonshinyfinish]

W.T.F they died for you WEAR IT

If you make it compulsory then it ceases to mean anything.

[Baldy Foghorn]

W.T.F they died for you WEAR IT

Who made you chief poppy spokesperson.....

We now have the freedom to do what suits each individual the best, some wear it, some don't......That OK?:rolleyes:

[theleith hibby]

look these guys gave there lives or at least put them on the line so we could debate this subject lets at least show our apretiation openly

[Hibernia&Alba]

Not really. It's generally those opposed to anything to do with the UK Armed Services that tend to bump their gums about how the poppy has been hijacked.

I don't agree. There is a section of Scottish society ( Rangers hardcore and Loyalists ) who have turned Remembrance Sunday into an undignified chance to divide and rule. We need to remember all who have died in war, whether as agents of good or ill for a particular government, and to remember that all wars have been pursued for power and wealth, the armies and the civilian dead being a consequence of setting man against man. We shouldn't be using it as an opportunity to warp ourselves in the national flag and to attach glory to something that is always tragic.

[DaveF]

Not really. It's generally those opposed to anything to do with the UK Armed Services that tend to bump their gums about how the poppy has been hijacked.

I don't have any issues with folks in the Armed Services but I do think there has been an excessive use of the poppy in the sporting world in the last few years. Football games, Rugby matches etc have all bought into it. It's almost as if we are sleep walking down the the American road of setting the Armed Services on a pedestal.

[Scouse Hibee]

look these guys gave there lives or at least put them on the line so we could debate this subject lets at least show our apretiation openly

wtf.

[theleith hibby]

well said

[Pretty Boy]

It's steadily growing!

"disgraceful if true"
"****bag"


I don't understand why someone wouldn't wear a poppy on their shirt, but it's his own choice so not gonna say anything against the guy.

In fairness to McLean I can absolutely understand why someone from Derry might refuse to wear a poppy. There view of the British Army is probably quite different from yours or mine.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I don't have any issues with folks in the Armed Services but I do think there has been an excessive use of the poppy in the sporting world in the last few years. Football games, Rugby matches etc have all bought into it. It's almost as if we are sleep walking down the the American road of setting the Armed Services on a pedestal.

You have a point. I'm uncomfortable with the recent phenomonen of questioning the loyalty of any sports team or celebrity who is seen in public not wearing in a poppy. It's a very glib way to look at the world. We don't want to get into a position of the vulgar sentimentalising of war. Rather we should think of the horror it always is.

[Scouse Hibee]

well said


Thanks, glad to see you realise how ridiculous your comment was :aok:

[theleith hibby]

wtf.
what is it you dont understand???

[theleith hibby]

You have a point. I'm uncomfortable with the recent phenomonen of questioning the loyalty of any sports team or celebrity who is seen in public not wearing in a poppy. It's a very glib way to look at the world. We don't want to get into a position of the vulgar sentimentalising of war. Rather we should think of the horror it always is.
well put

[Baldy Foghorn]

what is it you dont understand???

You

[Peevemor]

For me it should be the clubs' decision with the players following suit. McClean's anti-brit principles obviously aren't strong enough to stop him playing in England. For me he has shown a lack of respect for his club and the fans who pay his wages.

[Gatecrasher]

For me it should be the clubs' decision with the players following suit. McClean's anti-brit principles obviously aren't strong enough to stop him playing in England. For me he has shown a lack of respect for his club and the fans who pay his wages.
Whilst its his choice, Thats the sticking point for me as well, he is happy to live and earn a good living here but not appreciate the people who serve the country.

[DaveF]

For me it should be the clubs' decision with the players following suit. McClean's anti-brit principles obviously aren't strong enough to stop him playing in England. For me he has shown a lack of respect for his club and the fans who pay his wages.

Would the same apply to Muslims who miss games due to Ramadan or object to shirt sponsors?

[Scouse Hibee]

what is it you dont understand???


I understand everything fine thanks, including your misguided quote about giving or putting their lives on the line so we could debate whether or not to wear poppy's. A ridiculous comment that they died so we could do this blah,blah so over used in so many cases especially in recent conflicts.

[Sir David Gray]

People shouldn't be forced into wearing a poppy but I would love to hear his reasons for not wearing it today.

It's a mentality like that which is keeping Ireland, and parts of Scotland, in the dark ages.

Presumably we'll have another minute's applause at Parkhead tomorrow, for reasons not too dissimilar to why James McClean refused to wear a poppy today.

Very sad, hopefully he'll grow up a bit over the next few years and look back on this episode and be a bit embarrassed.

[DaveF]

Whilst its his choice, Thats the sticking point for me as well, he is happy to live and earn a good living here but not appreciate the people who serve the country.

There are probably a few million people born and bred here who hold the same view's as McLean.

[monktonharp]

In fairness to McLean I can absolutely understand why someone from Derry might refuse to wear a poppy. There view of the British Army is probably quite different from yours or mine.you may be surprised at how many have the same view as the people of Derry

[theleith hibby]

You
yeah theres a lot of bollocks talked on this site me included thats what i like about it

[Speedy]

look these guys gave there lives or at least put them on the line so we could debate this subject lets at least show our apretiation openly

And they also killed people or at least.threatened the lives or others. Some people might not agree with that.

Personally I don't have any particular opinion either way but people shouldn't be villified for having one.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Whilst its his choice, Thats the sticking point for me as well, he is happy to live and earn a good living here but not appreciate the people who serve the country.


Come on, it isn't that simple. A decision of conscience re poppies doesn't equate to the man being anti-British. That is the type of thinking we need to get away from. I wear one because I think of its introduction after the slaughter WW1, but I understand why many around the world would refrain from doing so, not because they are xenophobic but because they think of the British armed forces from a personal perspective.

[theleith hibby]

I understand everything fine thanks, including your misguided quote about giving or putting their lives on the line so we could debate whether or not to wear poppy's. A ridiculous comment that they died so we could do this blah,blah so over used in so many cases especially in recent conflicts.
so why did they die

[Scouse Hibee]

For me it should be the clubs' decision with the players following suit. McClean's anti-brit principles obviously aren't strong enough to stop him playing in England. For me he has shown a lack of respect for his club and the fans who pay his wages.


It should be the club's decision? If your employers made a decision to back or show support for a cause that you disagreed with and told you to wear something to back that cause would you go along with it?

[Peevemor]

Would the same apply to Muslims who miss games due to Ramadan or object to shirt sponsors?

It's a totally different thing -there's nothing in R.C. doctrine which prevents him wearing a poppy. What's ironic is that there are I don't know how many thousands of R.C. soldiers, including those from Northern Ireland that he has refused to commemorate.

[Scouse Hibee]

so why did they die


Mate I can't decide if you're on the wind up, stupid or both. Are you taking the piss?

[nonshinyfinish]

Come on, it isn't that simple. A decision of conscience re poppies doesn't equate to the man being anti-British.

Completely agree. This sort of simplification/polarisation is a persistent problem. The guy's reason for not wearing a poppy might be that he is a rabid bigoted nutjob, or it might be based on a nuanced and reasonable opinion. We don't know.

To say 'not wearing poppy' = 'anti-British' just seems like tabloid nonsense to me.

[Hibernia&Alba]

These are the types of narrowminded attitudes we don't want to see. They represent my fears of what some are trying to do to Remembrance Sunday

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=917897

[scoopyboy]

W.T.F they died for you WEAR IT

Would you expect a German playing in Britain to wear a poppy on his top?

[theleith hibby]

Mate I can't decide if you're on the wind up, stupid or both. Are you taking the piss?
all three and pissed goodnight and god bless

[clerriehibs]

and kept them to himself. Maybe he sould sign for some Turkish/Iranian/Thai/Chinese team that will allow him to articulate his views. :idiot:

"kept them to himself", i.e. you think that despite his own beliefs, he should wear the poppy anyway? That's poppy fascism.

[NYHibby]

For me it should be the clubs' decision with the players following suit. McClean's anti-brit principles obviously aren't strong enough to stop him playing in England. For me he has shown a lack of respect for his club and the fans who pay his wages.

What an absurd comment.

I'm an American citizen who works for the Scottish Government. I would never wear a poppy for various reasons, but that does not make me anti-Scottish or anti-British. Do you think I am disrespecting you? Are you going to tell me to get out of the country?

[Scouse Hibee]

What an absurd comment.

I'm an American citizen who works for the Scottish Government. I would never wear a poppy for various reasons, but that does not make me anti-Scottish or anti-British. Do you think I am disrespecting you? Are you going to tell me to get out of the country?


Aye............sling yer hook yank :greengrin

[cocopops1875]

Would the same apply to Muslims who miss games due to Ramadan or object to shirt sponsors?

Just out of interest has there been a player who has not worn a shirt with a sponsor ? Benji and Zooma must have worn whyte and McKay for example

[Gatecrasher]

Come on, it isn't that simple. A decision of conscience re poppies doesn't equate to the man being anti-British. That is the type of thinking we need to get away from. I wear one because I think of its introduction after the slaughter WW1, but I understand why many around the world would refrain from doing so, not because they are xenophobic but because they think of the British armed forces from a personal perspective.
I didn't mean he was anti British, the point I was trying to make is a lot of these people made the sacrifice they did to make the country into what it is today and allow him to hold the views he does, earn the living he does and live with the freedom he does. Refusing to put a football top on with a poppy on it shows a lack of respect for that IMO. But thats his choice.

[Hibernia&Alba]

What an absurd comment.

I'm an American citizen who works for the Scottish Government. I would never wear a poppy for various reasons, but that does not make me anti-Scottish or anti-British. Do you think I am disrespecting you? Are you going to tell me to get out of the country?

Surely the American war of independence from British rule pre 1776 means you are unfit to wear the poppy? :na na:

[surreyhibbie]

Would never contemplate not wearing one, but freedom is about personal choice.

I don't agree with him, but at the end of the day, it's his choice.

[Peevemor]

It should be the club's decision? If your employers made a decision to back or show support for a cause that you disagreed with and told you to wear something to back that cause would you go along with it?

I made a choice to live and work in France. If my boss asked me to make, for example, some anti-jewish gesture then I would refuse. If he asked me to show some respect for those that give their life for my chosen country of residence, then of course I would do so willingly. McClean might think he's a man of principal, but he's whored himself out for the English pound.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I didn't mean he was anti British, the point I was trying to make is a lot of these people made the sacrifice they did to make the country into what it is today and allow him to hold the views he does, earn the living he does and live with the freedom he does. Refusing to put a football top on with a poppy on it shows a lack of respect for that IMO. But thats his choice.

But if he refuses tio wear the poppy, why does that equate to lack of respect, given his own familial experiences of British rule in his country? If he was that much of a bigot, he would never have come here. His country may, in his opinion, been denied its own freedom by British rule. Therein lies the differences of perspective. We mustn't simply see the world from a British viewpoint.

[ronaldo7]

This year I've decided not to wear one. Last year I wore one. Next year(god sparing), I might wear one.

Choices, Choices.

Get a Life people.

It's his choice.

[clerriehibs]

For me it should be the clubs' decision with the players following suit. McClean's anti-brit principles obviously aren't strong enough to stop him playing in England. For me he has shown a lack of respect for his club and the fans who pay his wages.

You think if you say that often enough the mud will stick? I'd suggest that insisting anyone and everyone wears the poppy is anti-brit, because it's fascism.

[theleith hibby]

I made a choice to live and work in France. If my boss asked me to make, for example, some anti-jewish gesture then I would refuse. If he asked me to show some respect for those that give their life for my chosen country of residence, then of course I would do so willingly. McClean might think he's a man of principal, but he's whored himself out for the English pound.
very well put

[Scouse Hibee]

I made a choice to live and work in France. If my boss asked me to make, for example, some anti-jewish gesture then I would refuse. If he asked me to show some respect for those that give their life for my chosen country of residence, then of course I would do so willingly. McClean might think he's a man of principal, but he's whored himself out for the English pound.


Nice try but you've conveniently chosen to forget that McClean's objections are as righteous to him as yours of an anti jewish gesture would be.

[Suburban Hibby]

These are the types of narrowminded attitudes we don't want to see. They represent my fears of what some are trying to do to Remembrance Sunday

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=917897

We all know what the huns think- so what???

The poppy appeal is so much more important than what some
Inbred numpty thinks- form your own opinion and appreciate what these guys & girls have and do currently do for you, me and even jambos- this is beyond bigotry.

[clerriehibs]

People shouldn't be forced into wearing a poppy but I would love to hear his reasons for not wearing it today.

It's a mentality like that which is keeping Ireland, and parts of Scotland, in the dark ages.

Presumably we'll have another minute's applause at Parkhead tomorrow, for reasons not too dissimilar to why James McClean refused to wear a poppy today.

Very sad, hopefully he'll grow up a bit over the next few years and look back on this episode and be a bit embarrassed.

It's political interference, by portraying anyone who is anti-war for whatever reason as anti-"our British forces", that's keeping this country in the dark ages.

[Hiber-nation]

Who knows what McClean's personal circumstances are? Would we be so quick to condemn a Hibs player who refused to wear one?

[Hibernia&Alba]

I made a choice to live and work in France. If my boss asked me to make, for example, some anti-jewish gesture then I would refuse. If he asked me to show some respect for those that give their life for my chosen country of residence, then of course I would do so willingly. McClean might think he's a man of principal, but he's whored himself out for the English pound.

You're confusing history with modern day conciliation. His refusal to wear a poppy doesn't necessarily equate to his having any problem with the English today. His own heritage may have produced an antipathy to the British armed forces, but that doesn't mean the mean he should never set foot in England. Similarly, I don't blame modern day Germans for the crimes of the Nazi regime.

Would I wear a German symbol of remembrance for WW2? Well that would depend upon the context. Is it a symbol that remembers the tragedy of those six years or is it a symbol or is it a symbol of German greatness, ignoring the millions of other nations who died?

[OstKurve Hibs]

For me it should be the clubs' decision with the players following suit. McClean's anti-brit principles obviously aren't strong enough to stop him playing in England. For me he has shown a lack of respect for his club and the fans who pay his wages.

And you come to this conclusion how ? Does the poppy represent Sunderland fc or the people of wearside ?

[Scouse Hibee]

Who knows what McClean's personal circumstances are? Would we be so quick to condemn a Hibs player who refused to wear one?



:top marks

[biggie1875]

Seen this and thought I'd post it here gives a insight into other people's feelings on the matter .........,I would wear a red poppy if it was a symbol of remembrance for all the victims of war, and not just the ones who did the killing. By excluding the non-military victims of war from remembrance, the red poppy upholds a moral hierarchy of worthy and unworthy victims: the heroic soldier who is worthy of respect and official commemoration, and the unworthy, unnamed civilians killed or maimed by the heroic soldier who remains unacknowledged and unremembered. This validation of those who wage war and the moral hierarchy of victims is a central part of the cultural architecture which upholds the continuing institution of war in our society. It is a central part of what makes war possible. When the red poppy comes to be associated with an honest public acknowledgement of all the people killed by our soldiers, enemy soldiers and civilians alike; when it symbolizes our sorrow and regret for all the victims of war, not just a chosen few; then I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it did not function to hide the truth and obscure reality – if it wasn’t a way of enforcing a particular kind of collective memory which is actually designed to forget uncomfortable realities; if it wasn’t intimately tied up with a whole series of myths and untruths about heroic sacrifice and necessary violence in war. The truth is that war is cruel, bloody, and inglorious, and that the soldiers we remember are there to kill and maim fellow human beings, and to die screaming for their mothers. The truth is that when we send soldiers to kill others, we consign those who survive to mental and moral injury; a huge proportion of them will attempt suicide in one way or another after they return home. The truth is that many of our wars are nothing to do with freedom, liberty, or democracy; they are often illegal, pointless, or predatory. When the red poppy is associated with an honest debate on the reality and morality of our wars; when it acknowledges the truth about the horror of war and its often pointless slaughter of our best and brightest; then I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if its fund-raising and symbolism had the true interests of the military personnel it purports to support at heart. The fact is that the best interests of every military person would be to never have to kill or face death or mutilation ever again, and certainly not for the squalid purposes most often dreamed up by our venal and vainglorious politicians. The funds raised by the red poppy should be used to work for the end of all war, not to make up for the short-coming in state support for military personnel or to prepare the nation for the further slaughter of our fellow citizens in future wars.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t a way for the state to offset the costs of war so that it can engage in ever more military adventures. In truth, the state sends the nation’s young people to war and then refuses to spend the necessary money on supporting them when they return home. Buying a red poppy is in effect a second tax for funding war, as it allows the state to spend the money it should have spent on rehabilitation on buying new weapons and training new soldiers. Instead of buying a red poppy, we should demand that the state pay the full support and rehabilitation of all soldiers who need it out of the taxes we have already paid to the military. If this means that there is not enough money for the next military adventure because we are taking care of the last war’s victims, then this is how it should be. It should not be easy for governments to take the decision to go to war; they must pay the full cost. If the red poppy came to symbolize a challenge to government to properly care for service personnel; if it was a means to really question the decision to go to war, instead of implicitly supporting every war regardless of its morality; I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t used socially to enforce an unthinking patriotism, and to punish and discipline those who would question the morality of war or the values of militarism. Those who fervently promote the red poppy often assert that the soldiers we remember fought for our freedom, but this does not include the freedom to question military values or public displays of violent patriotism. Anyone should be allowed to refuse to wear a red poppy in public on the basis of conscience without being questioned or looked down upon, or even to wear a different coloured poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t part of a broader militarism in our society which makes war more likely, rather than less; if it wasn’t bound up with national narratives of heroism and the legitimacy and rightness of military force; and if it wasn’t implicitly supportive of military values. If the red poppy came to symbolize opposition to war and support for peaceful values; I would consider wearing it.

I wear the White Poppy because it is an unambiguous commitment to peace, the end of all war and opposition to militarism. The Red Poppy may have once been part of a commemorative culture shortly after the First World War that was aimed at working towards ensuring that no one ever had to experience the horrors of war again; but this meaning has long since vanished, replaced instead by an insidious military patriotism. The White Poppy is now the main symbol of a commitment to remember all the victims of war, to tell the truth about war, to work to ensure that no soldier ever has to suffer its horrors again, and to make peace the central value of our culture, instead of militarism.

[Peevemor]

What an absurd comment.

I'm an American citizen who works for the Scottish Government. I would never wear a poppy for various reasons, but that does not make me anti-Scottish or anti-British. Do you think I am disrespecting you? Are you going to tell me to get out of the country?

I wouldn't tell you to get out of the country - it's your choice. However, if you were a public figure who refused to wear a poppy when asked, then I would say yes, you are showing a certain lack of respect for the country.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Refused to wear shirt with a poppy on before todays game with Everton. :cb

every person deserves their right. so what.

[scuttle]

I notice he started the game, so i assume he took part in the minutes silence. If he was that bigoted or anti British he would surely have asked to be on the bench so he could avoid it

[Peevemor]

Nice try but you've conveniently chosen to forget that McClean's objections are as righteous to him as yours of an anti jewish gesture would be.

So does he see the English/British as his enemy or not? If so why work there?

[Baldy Foghorn]

Who knows what McClean's personal circumstances are? Would we be so quick to condemn a Hibs player who refused to wear one?

Exactly, the guy has his own reasoning behind his decision......It's not right or wrong, it's entirely his perogative.......

[Hibernia&Alba]

Seen this and thought I'd post it here gives a insight into other people's feelings on the matter .........,I would wear a red poppy if it was a symbol of remembrance for all the victims of war, and not just the ones who did the killing. By excluding the non-military victims of war from remembrance, the red poppy upholds a moral hierarchy of worthy and unworthy victims: the heroic soldier who is worthy of respect and official commemoration, and the unworthy, unnamed civilians killed or maimed by the heroic soldier who remains unacknowledged and unremembered. This validation of those who wage war and the moral hierarchy of victims is a central part of the cultural architecture which upholds the continuing institution of war in our society. It is a central part of what makes war possible. When the red poppy comes to be associated with an honest public acknowledgement of all the people killed by our soldiers, enemy soldiers and civilians alike; when it symbolizes our sorrow and regret for all the victims of war, not just a chosen few; then I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it did not function to hide the truth and obscure reality – if it wasn’t a way of enforcing a particular kind of collective memory which is actually designed to forget uncomfortable realities; if it wasn’t intimately tied up with a whole series of myths and untruths about heroic sacrifice and necessary violence in war. The truth is that war is cruel, bloody, and inglorious, and that the soldiers we remember are there to kill and maim fellow human beings, and to die screaming for their mothers. The truth is that when we send soldiers to kill others, we consign those who survive to mental and moral injury; a huge proportion of them will attempt suicide in one way or another after they return home. The truth is that many of our wars are nothing to do with freedom, liberty, or democracy; they are often illegal, pointless, or predatory. When the red poppy is associated with an honest debate on the reality and morality of our wars; when it acknowledges the truth about the horror of war and its often pointless slaughter of our best and brightest; then I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if its fund-raising and symbolism had the true interests of the military personnel it purports to support at heart. The fact is that the best interests of every military person would be to never have to kill or face death or mutilation ever again, and certainly not for the squalid purposes most often dreamed up by our venal and vainglorious politicians. The funds raised by the red poppy should be used to work for the end of all war, not to make up for the short-coming in state support for military personnel or to prepare the nation for the further slaughter of our fellow citizens in future wars.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t a way for the state to offset the costs of war so that it can engage in ever more military adventures. In truth, the state sends the nation’s young people to war and then refuses to spend the necessary money on supporting them when they return home. Buying a red poppy is in effect a second tax for funding war, as it allows the state to spend the money it should have spent on rehabilitation on buying new weapons and training new soldiers. Instead of buying a red poppy, we should demand that the state pay the full support and rehabilitation of all soldiers who need it out of the taxes we have already paid to the military. If this means that there is not enough money for the next military adventure because we are taking care of the last war’s victims, then this is how it should be. It should not be easy for governments to take the decision to go to war; they must pay the full cost. If the red poppy came to symbolize a challenge to government to properly care for service personnel; if it was a means to really question the decision to go to war, instead of implicitly supporting every war regardless of its morality; I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t used socially to enforce an unthinking patriotism, and to punish and discipline those who would question the morality of war or the values of militarism. Those who fervently promote the red poppy often assert that the soldiers we remember fought for our freedom, but this does not include the freedom to question military values or public displays of violent patriotism. Anyone should be allowed to refuse to wear a red poppy in public on the basis of conscience without being questioned or looked down upon, or even to wear a different coloured poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t part of a broader militarism in our society which makes war more likely, rather than less; if it wasn’t bound up with national narratives of heroism and the legitimacy and rightness of military force; and if it wasn’t implicitly supportive of military values. If the red poppy came to symbolize opposition to war and support for peaceful values; I would consider wearing it.

I wear the White Poppy because it is an unambiguous commitment to peace, the end of all war and opposition to militarism. The Red Poppy may have once been part of a commemorative culture shortly after the First World War that was aimed at working towards ensuring that no one ever had to experience the horrors of war again; but this meaning has long since vanished, replaced instead by an insidious military patriotism. The White Poppy is now the main symbol of a commitment to remember all the victims of war, to tell the truth about war, to work to ensure that no soldier ever has to suffer its horrors again, and to make peace the central value of our culture, instead of militarism.


Many good points made. :agree:

[nonshinyfinish]

So does he see the English/British as his enemy or not? If so why work there?

Why would he have to see the English/British as his enemy to not want to wear a poppy? As as been said several times above, we can only guess at his reasons.

[clerriehibs]

So does he see the English/British as his enemy or not? If so why work there?

Ah, so an Irishman not wearing a poppy is a declaration of war. Lovely.

[ekhibee]

I didn't mean he was anti British, the point I was trying to make is a lot of these people made the sacrifice they did to make the country into what it is today and allow him to hold the views he does, earn the living he does and live with the freedom he does. Refusing to put a football top on with a poppy on it shows a lack of respect for that IMO. But thats his choice.

Sorry mate, a bit confused. You're saying people made the sacrifice to allow him to hold the views he does, but he should still wear the poppy even if he doesn't agree with it? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

[Scouse Hibee]

So does he see the English/British as his enemy or not? If so why work there?


Jeez am I on the right board????? What a huge leap you've taken, English/British as enemies WTF!

[Peevemor]

And you come to this conclusion how ? Does the poppy represent Sunderland fc or the people of wearside ?

Sunderland FC, his employer, obviously believe that the poppy has some significance to them.

[clerriehibs]

Jeez am I on the right board????? What a huge leap you've taken, English/British as enemies WTF!


I think it's a new spin on "if you're not with us, you're against us"

[Peevemor]

Why would he have to see the English/British as his enemy to not want to wear a poppy? As as been said several times above, we can only guess at his reasons.

If he has a problem with Earl Haig (the man) the he should come out and say it - I'd possibly agree with him.

If he has a problem with only certain British servicemen or their actions then I think he's wrong.

[Gatecrasher]

Sorry mate, a bit confused. You're saying people made the sacrifice to allow him to hold the views he does, but he should still wear the poppy even if he doesn't agree with it? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

I'm not saying whether he should or shouldn't, I just feel it shows a lack of respect

[Peevemor]

Seen this and thought I'd post it here gives a insight into other people's feelings on the matter .........,

Great post. :top marks

[NAE NOOKIE]

Seen this and thought I'd post it here gives a insight into other people's feelings on the matter .........,I would wear a red poppy if it was a symbol of remembrance for all the victims of war, and not just the ones who did the killing. By excluding the non-military victims of war from remembrance, the red poppy upholds a moral hierarchy of worthy and unworthy victims: the heroic soldier who is worthy of respect and official commemoration, and the unworthy, unnamed civilians killed or maimed by the heroic soldier who remains unacknowledged and unremembered. This validation of those who wage war and the moral hierarchy of victims is a central part of the cultural architecture which upholds the continuing institution of war in our society. It is a central part of what makes war possible. When the red poppy comes to be associated with an honest public acknowledgement of all the people killed by our soldiers, enemy soldiers and civilians alike; when it symbolizes our sorrow and regret for all the victims of war, not just a chosen few; then I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it did not function to hide the truth and obscure reality – if it wasn’t a way of enforcing a particular kind of collective memory which is actually designed to forget uncomfortable realities; if it wasn’t intimately tied up with a whole series of myths and untruths about heroic sacrifice and necessary violence in war. The truth is that war is cruel, bloody, and inglorious, and that the soldiers we remember are there to kill and maim fellow human beings, and to die screaming for their mothers. The truth is that when we send soldiers to kill others, we consign those who survive to mental and moral injury; a huge proportion of them will attempt suicide in one way or another after they return home. The truth is that many of our wars are nothing to do with freedom, liberty, or democracy; they are often illegal, pointless, or predatory. When the red poppy is associated with an honest debate on the reality and morality of our wars; when it acknowledges the truth about the horror of war and its often pointless slaughter of our best and brightest; then I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if its fund-raising and symbolism had the true interests of the military personnel it purports to support at heart. The fact is that the best interests of every military person would be to never have to kill or face death or mutilation ever again, and certainly not for the squalid purposes most often dreamed up by our venal and vainglorious politicians. The funds raised by the red poppy should be used to work for the end of all war, not to make up for the short-coming in state support for military personnel or to prepare the nation for the further slaughter of our fellow citizens in future wars.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t a way for the state to offset the costs of war so that it can engage in ever more military adventures. In truth, the state sends the nation’s young people to war and then refuses to spend the necessary money on supporting them when they return home. Buying a red poppy is in effect a second tax for funding war, as it allows the state to spend the money it should have spent on rehabilitation on buying new weapons and training new soldiers. Instead of buying a red poppy, we should demand that the state pay the full support and rehabilitation of all soldiers who need it out of the taxes we have already paid to the military. If this means that there is not enough money for the next military adventure because we are taking care of the last war’s victims, then this is how it should be. It should not be easy for governments to take the decision to go to war; they must pay the full cost. If the red poppy came to symbolize a challenge to government to properly care for service personnel; if it was a means to really question the decision to go to war, instead of implicitly supporting every war regardless of its morality; I would consider wearing a red poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t used socially to enforce an unthinking patriotism, and to punish and discipline those who would question the morality of war or the values of militarism. Those who fervently promote the red poppy often assert that the soldiers we remember fought for our freedom, but this does not include the freedom to question military values or public displays of violent patriotism. Anyone should be allowed to refuse to wear a red poppy in public on the basis of conscience without being questioned or looked down upon, or even to wear a different coloured poppy.

I would wear a red poppy if it wasn’t part of a broader militarism in our society which makes war more likely, rather than less; if it wasn’t bound up with national narratives of heroism and the legitimacy and rightness of military force; and if it wasn’t implicitly supportive of military values. If the red poppy came to symbolize opposition to war and support for peaceful values; I would consider wearing it.

I wear the White Poppy because it is an unambiguous commitment to peace, the end of all war and opposition to militarism. The Red Poppy may have once been part of a commemorative culture shortly after the First World War that was aimed at working towards ensuring that no one ever had to experience the horrors of war again; but this meaning has long since vanished, replaced instead by an insidious military patriotism. The White Poppy is now the main symbol of a commitment to remember all the victims of war, to tell the truth about war, to work to ensure that no soldier ever has to suffer its horrors again, and to make peace the central value of our culture, instead of
militarism.

A lot of good stuff and true stuff in your post mate.

Especially the bit about charity supporting soldiers because of the shortcomings of governments. If you are asking folk to die or lose limbs for you you should give them everything they need when they come home ..... Its to our shame that we fall way short of fulfilling that obligation.

I will and do wear a poppy out of respect for all people killed in conflicts, including my Uncle Albert killed in Italy during WW2 ( he was in his early 20s ) if some folk choose to politicise the poppy .. thats up to them I suppose ... for me its respect .. end of story.

By the way ... I think the White poppy is a good idea ..... I've never seen one for sale though.

[McIntosh]

They died so he has the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy.

Correct, however this does not makes his act any less disrespectful.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm not saying whether he should or shouldn't, I just feel it shows a lack of respect

Yet perhaps if you'd grown up in his area of Northern Ireland, you would have little respect for the British army too. That's a consequence of different experiences of what were different armies. The volunteers and conscripts of WW1 were not the same army who walked the streets of Northern Ireland from 1969, and it's very difficult for those of use who experienced neither to tell others how they should think. The British army has partaken in campaigns of herosim and of shame over the centuries, and we today need to appreciate the experiences of peoples whose countries we may never have visited.

[Peevemor]

Ah, so an Irishman not wearing a poppy is a declaration of war. Lovely.


Jeez am I on the right board????? What a huge leap you've taken, English/British as enemies WTF!


I think it's a new spin on "if you're not with us, you're against us"

Maybe I'm putting 2+2 together and making 5, but this is a guy who refused selection for Northern Ireland, declaring he'd rather play for the Republic - even though he had yet to be picked. Now he's refused to wear a poppy. I think he has principals when it suits him.

[nonshinyfinish]

If he has a problem with Earl Haig (the man) the he should come out and say it - I'd possibly agree with him.

If he has a problem with only certain British servicemen or their actions then I think he's wrong.


Great post. :top marks

And what if his reasons are along the lines of those in the excellent post that you agreed with? :confused:

[McIntosh]

Maybe I'm putting 2+2 together and making 5, but this is a guy who refused selection for Northern Ireland, declaring he'd rather play for the Republic - even though he had yet to be picked. Now he's refused to wear a poppy. I think he has principals when it suits him.

:top marks

[Peevemor]

And what if his reasons are along the lines of those in the excellent post that you agreed with? :confused:

This -


Maybe I'm putting 2+2 together and making 5, but this is a guy who refused selection for Northern Ireland, declaring he'd rather play for the Republic - even though he had yet to be picked. Now he's refused to wear a poppy. I think he has principals when it suits him.

and having heard the guy being interviewed, I'd be surprised of he's capable of that sort of reasoning.

[euansdad]

Interesting to see if the unwashed honour the one minute silence tomorrow afternoon at darkhead. No doubt they'll have some excuse.... erses

Pacifist or not, we need to remember those brave men/women who gave their lives and parts of their bodies for something they thought was in our best interests.

This

[nonshinyfinish]

This -



and having heard the guy being interviewed, I'd be surprised of he's capable of that sort of reasoning.

Without knowing anything about the guy I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I do see where you're coming from.

[Bishop Hibee]

Seen this and thought I'd post it here gives a insight into other people's feelings on the matter .........,
I wear the White Poppy because it is an unambiguous commitment to peace, the end of all war and opposition to militarism. The Red Poppy may have once been part of a commemorative culture shortly after the First World War that was aimed at working towards ensuring that no one ever had to experience the horrors of war again; but this meaning has long since vanished, replaced instead by an insidious military patriotism. The White Poppy is now the main symbol of a commitment to remember all the victims of war, to tell the truth about war, to work to ensure that no soldier ever has to suffer its horrors again, and to make peace the central value of our culture, instead of militarism.

I agree with everything you say about the red poppy. I'll wear it tomorrow to the Remembrance Service I'll attend so as not to offend others there but it will be taken off as soon as I leave.

However I do think that there are those who wear the white poppy as an act of anti-establishment defiance rather than a true remembrance of all victims of war. Symbols attract a lot of baggage and mean different things to different people.

[Peevemor]

You're confusing history with modern day conciliation. His refusal to wear a poppy doesn't necessarily equate to his having any problem with the English today. His own heritage may have produced an antipathy to the British armed forces, but that doesn't mean the mean he should never set foot in England. Similarly, I don't blame modern day Germans for the crimes of the Nazi regime.

Did you not contradict yourself there?


Would I wear a German symbol of remembrance for WW2? Well that would depend upon the context. Is it a symbol that remembers the tragedy of those six years or is it a symbol or is it a symbol of German greatness, ignoring the millions of other nations who died?

Is the poppy a symbol of British greatness? I certainly don't see it that way.

[euansdad]

What the poppy is there for is nothing to do with politics or religion and people seem to forget that. It's a simple way of just remembering young men who fell in various wars, many of whom who were sent to foreign lands with little choice in the world wars. Don't personally think its asking to much to remember them, regardless of your politics

[DaveF]

Sunderland FC, his employer, obviously believe that the poppy has some significance to them.

Up until 5 years ago (or so) I'm pretty sure Sunderland and every other club didn't really bother with the poppy and it's significance. The media blitz (right or wrong depending on where you are) has brough home any 'significance' it might have now IMO.

[Peevemor]

Without knowing anything about the guy I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I do see where you're coming from.

At last.

I respect and defend civil liberties, but I simply think that the fact that he went out his way to not wear the poppy is crass and disrespectful.

[Peevemor]

Up until 5 years ago (or so) I'm pretty sure Sunderland and every other club didn't really bother with the poppy and it's significance. The media blitz (right or wrong depending on where you are) has brough home any 'significance' it might have now IMO.

Correct - but if it raises public awareness (whatever your point of view), then all the better.


What the poppy is there for is nothing to do with politics or religion and people seem to forget that. It's a simple way of just remembering young men who fell in various wars, many of whom who were sent to foreign lands with little choice in the world wars. Don't personally think its asking to much to remember them, regardless of your politics

Which is my point entirely.

[hibsbollah]

In recent years, Football has developed a weird relationship with the poppies/minutes silence thing that makes me totally uncomfortable.

Ive just been watching MOTD. A solemn faced Lineker has reminded us all of the 'ultimate sacrifice' while the camera pans around all the grounds, with players and fans looking into space in total silence. Two mascots in giant furry dog costumes are looking suitably sad and serious, which maybe adds to the feeling of it being a bit manufactured:confused:

[DaveF]

Correct - but if it raises public awareness (whatever your point of view), then all the better.


In your opinion. Other's are likely to disagree.

[Peevemor]

In recent years, Football has developed a weird relationship with the poppies/minutes silence thing that makes me totally uncomfortable.

Ive just been watching MOTD. A solemn faced Lineker has reminded us all of the 'ultimate sacrifice' while the camera pans around all the grounds, with players and fans looking into space in total silence. Two mascots in giant furry dog costumes are looking suitably sad and serious, but it all feels a bit manufactured:confused:

I agree - especially the minute's silence thing which was getting out of control for while.

My own thinking is that there should be one minutes silence per year, before the traditional new year derby match (whatever date it's played), where the teams and supporters can show their respect for any former players, public figures, popes, whatever that have died during the preceding year. I'm sure this would be meticulously respected by everyone.

[Peevemor]

In your opinion. Other's are likely to disagree.

I did say "whatever your point of view".

[Hibernia&Alba]

Did you not contradict yourself there?

No, the point is that the fact he refuses to wear a poppy due to his own experiences doesn't necessarily make him anti-British, just as the experience of two world wars doesn't make me anti-German. To equate his stance with some kind of hypocrisy is entirely wrong.





Is the poppy a symbol of British greatness? I certainly don't see it that way.


The poppy never should be a symbol of support for the armed forces, rather it should be an act of remembrance of the barbarity of war. I feel the whole debate is losing sight of this objective, though I do understand how the raising of funds for British army veterans would upset those whose personal memories of the British army are negative. The history combines the very good with the very bad.

[Pete]

People shouldn't be forced into wearing a poppy but I would love to hear his reasons for not wearing it today.

It's a mentality like that which is keeping Ireland, and parts of Scotland, in the dark ages.

Presumably we'll have another minute's applause at Parkhead tomorrow, for reasons not too dissimilar to why James McClean refused to wear a poppy today.

Very sad, hopefully he'll grow up a bit over the next few years and look back on this episode and be a bit embarrassed.

"keeping Ireland in the dark ages"! Bloody hell.

So they're being kept in the dark ages because these awkward catholic Irish republicans don't want to forgive the atrocities committed by British forces in Northern Ireland? Atrocities committed in the community that McClean grew up in. The man undoubtedly knows people who have been affected.

The only people who will look back on episodes like this and feel embarrassed are people like yourself. You'll be embarrassed when you grow up and actually understand that people from different cultures and races might have different ways of looking at things.

What you call the "dark ages" are very real issues that still effect people. It's the memories and scars left behind and the very real issue of anti-catholic sectarianism, on the street and institutional, in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

[cocopops1875]

"keeping Ireland in the dark ages"! Bloody hell.

So they're being kept in the dark ages because these awkward catholic Irish republicans don't want to forgive the atrocities committed by British forces in Northern Ireland? Atrocities committed in the community that McClean grew up in. The man undoubtedly knows people who have been affected.

The only people who will look back on episodes like this and feel embarrassed are people like yourself. You'll be embarrassed when you grow up and actually understand that people from different cultures and races might have different ways of looking at things.

What you call the "dark ages" are very real issues that still effect people. It's the memories and scars left behind and the very real issue of anti-catholic sectarianism, on the street and institutional, in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

:top marks

[(((Fergus)))]

They died so he has the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy.

Spot on.

[yeezus.]

"keeping Ireland in the dark ages"! Bloody hell.

So they're being kept in the dark ages because these awkward catholic Irish republicans don't want to forgive the atrocities committed by British forces in Northern Ireland? Atrocities committed in the community that McClean grew up in. The man undoubtedly knows people who have been affected.

The only people who will look back on episodes like this and feel embarrassed are people like yourself. You'll be embarrassed when you grow up and actually understand that people from different cultures and races might have different ways of looking at things.

What you call the "dark ages" are very real issues that still effect people. It's the memories and scars left behind and the very real issue of anti-catholic sectarianism, on the street and institutional, in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

:agree: spot on.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

My mate tells me Doyle never had a poppy on his top, never noticed myself, can anyone confirm this?

[Hibs Class]

My mate tells me Doyle never had a poppy on his top, never noticed myself, can anyone confirm this?

Doyle did have a poppy. As far as I could see neither maybury nor stevenson had one. Some players changed shirts at half time so wouldn't swear to Doyle's in the second half.

[Gatecrasher]

Doyle did have a poppy. As far as I could see neither maybury nor stevenson had one. Some players changed shirts at half time so wouldn't swear to Doyle's in the second half.
some players who had them at the start didnt have them at the end, i think they may have fell off

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Cheers folks!

[Hibs Class]

some players who had them at the start didnt have them at the end, i think they may have fell off

Just watching the recording from earlier. Doyle lost his poppy in his goal celebration. Hadn't realised at the game how loosely they were attached.

[NOLA]

W.T.F they died for you WEAR IT
wrong forum pal.

[StevieT]

I don't have any issues with folks in the Armed Services but I do think there has been an excessive use of the poppy in the sporting world in the last few years. Football games, Rugby matches etc have all bought into it. It's almost as if we are sleep walking down the the American road of setting the Armed Services on a pedestal.

I think we are already there. I buy a poppy each year and I wear it. I wear it to remember those who fought for our country during the two world wars and other conflicts. For the people who volunteered to go to war and fight along side paid soldiers.

What I don't get is the nationwide love in we have developed for our 'brave' armed forces. These people make a choice to serve their country. Does that make them better than you or I or anyone else who does a dangerous job, police, fire brigade etc?

[JimBHibees]

I think we are already there. I buy a poppy each year and I wear it. I wear it to remember those who fought for our country during the two world wars and other conflicts. For the people who volunteered to go to war and fight along side paid soldiers.

What I don't get is the nationwide love in we have developed for our 'brave' armed forces. These people make a choice to serve their country. Does that make them better than you or I or anyone else who does a dangerous job, police, fire brigade etc?

Completely agree I think it was Blair that has tried to manufacture a US type adulation of the forces around about the time of his illegal war decision. Personally buy a poppy every year however dont always wear one as very much depends on type of jacket I am wearing at the time. There is no doubt that there are many injured young people coming back from current conflicts that will need massive resources to give them some sort of quality of life they deserve. The main issue to me is why do governments send these guys to war spending billions in the process and are not prepared to invest appropriately in their long term care that is needed. I think that is more the issue.

Sounds like McClean is being an ass IMO as there was no need to do this and his point is to me a crass one and given his previous decision to snub Norn Iron then seems obvious he isnt the smartest or the advice he is getting is very poor.

[StevieT]

Completely agree I think it was Blair that has tried to manufacture a US type adulation of the forces around about the time of his illegal war decision. Personally buy a poppy every year however dont always wear one as very much depends on type of jacket I am wearing at the time. There is no doubt that there are many injured young people coming back from current conflicts that will need massive resources to give them some sort of quality of life they deserve. The main issue to me is why do governments send these guys to war spending billions in the process and are not prepared to invest appropriately in their long term care that is needed. I think that is more the issue.

Sounds like McClean is being an ass IMO as there was no need to do this and his point is to me a crass one and given his previous decision to snub Norn Iron then seems obvious he isnt the smartest or the advice he is getting is very poor.

Jim, I agree with the first bit and whilst these men and women will require long term help, it was their choice to sign up in the first place and they knew the risks. This armed forces love-in really gets on my goat.

[Sir David Gray]

"keeping Ireland in the dark ages"! Bloody hell.

So they're being kept in the dark ages because these awkward catholic Irish republicans don't want to forgive the atrocities committed by British forces in Northern Ireland? Atrocities committed in the community that McClean grew up in. The man undoubtedly knows people who have been affected.

The only people who will look back on episodes like this and feel embarrassed are people like yourself. You'll be embarrassed when you grow up and actually understand that people from different cultures and races might have different ways of looking at things.

What you call the "dark ages" are very real issues that still effect people. It's the memories and scars left behind and the very real issue of anti-catholic sectarianism, on the street and institutional, in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Who said I was only talking about the Catholic community being in the dark ages? There's many people on both sides of the divide in Ireland, and in parts of Scotland too, who have similar, but obviously very different, mindsets to James McClean who are also part of the problem.

You might not agree with some of the conflicts that Britain has entered into but I fail to understand why anyone would have any issue at all with respecting those who have lost their lives whilst fighting for their country, once every year. I just don't get it.

As I have said already in my first post, people should not be forced into wearing poppies, I think that's wrong and goes against the freedoms which were fought for all these years ago in the world wars.

However I would really love to hear McClean come out and say publicly why he didn't wear a poppy last weekend.

As I said as well in my previous post, I hope that he will look back on this episode with some regret in years to come. I know you have a fairly sympathetic view of the IRA, which you have expressed on here in the past, and other such views which I will never share or even pretend to share so perhaps we'll never see eye to eye on this subject but I did not in any way, shape or form try to suggest that it was just the Catholics who were keeping people in the "dark ages".

[steakbake]

Are we still bickering about this? I thought it seemed that significantly less people were wearing poppies this year.

I put money in the cans but didn't go about wearing a poppy. Main reason is that I feel the other events of the wider season (the donations, the exposure on tv, memorial events, silences/wreaths etc) express remembrance more than me going about with a wee paper flower that's actually quite tricky to attach and keep respectfully neat on modern clothing.

The basic design of the poppy kind of shows it's a convention from a very different era: far fewer wear the kind of clothes that have buttonholes these days or that you can pin things to. That sounds really superficial and no doubt there'll be some who think "young men were cut down in the mud of the Somme and you moan about the poppy not fitting the items in your wardrobe" but that's the kind of overly emotive equivalency that's making a bit of a mockery of the whole thing.

With charities like Help for Heroes and Erskine getting - rightly - a really high profile year-round and the generally high stock of the military in the media (sometimes questionable), also not forgetting the seemingly endless and tedious cycle of TV fixated on the theme of 'Britain at war', then the act of remembrance has been lost in a wider aspect of British culture that celebrates, recognises and pays homage to the human cost of war on a much more continual basis.

People are also a lot more diverse in their views. Some, like me for example, feel there are various aspects of British military ventures and history which are actually quite shameful. The inward looking patriotism of the day is jarring: the focus is on our losses, our sacrifices and far less on the outward consequences of war for everyone it overshadows.

There is a tendency towards a romanticisation of the cause and of the fallen which in other cultures, would be seen as martyrdom, that doesnt sit well with me. Did some of these people really die in the cause of fighting to maintain our freedom and defend our land? Or were their lives given in the name of suppression and political convenience? I can understand fully for example, why some in Ireland take a different view of the events and symbols than we're necessarily 'supposed' to.

My feeling is that Remembrance Day has to an extent, had its day. At some point in the not too distant future, it will probably need to be redefined or the format changed for it to remain relevant to the generations carrying it forward. The more time and generations pass, the more distant the original point of the day is becoming. To me, it has been replaced by other actions which, in the case of charities etc have a much more year-round profile and support and effect.

In light of all that, arguing over the rights and wrongs of a wee paper disk seems a bit pointless, not to mention just a little bit odd.

[joe breezy]

I wear the poppy every year and used to be very against the anti poppy stance - but I was reading an article recently that categorically said they are solely about remembering British troops not any other side.

I've always thought of them as a way of remembering anyone who died in war, which is what I'd prefer, including all the Japanese murdered by nuclear weapons and even the German civilians killed by British bombs.

Also the poppy / war celebration at Ibrox recently shows how some nutters are trying to claim it for themselves so I'm less sure about the poppy this year than ever before.

[Pete]

Who said I was only talking about the Catholic community being in the dark ages? There's many people on both sides of the divide in Ireland, and in parts of Scotland too, who have similar, but obviously very different, mindsets to James McClean who are also part of the problem.

You might not agree with some of the conflicts that Britain has entered into but I fail to understand why anyone would have any issue at all with respecting those who have lost their lives whilst fighting for their country, once every year. I just don't get it.

As I have said already in my first post, people should not be forced into wearing poppies, I think that's wrong and goes against the freedoms which were fought for all these years ago in the world wars.

However I would really love to hear McClean come out and say publicly why he didn't wear a poppy last weekend.

As I said as well in my previous post, I hope that he will look back on this episode with some regret in years to come. I know you have a fairly sympathetic view of the IRA, which you have expressed on here in the past, and other such views which I will never share or even pretend to share so perhaps we'll never see eye to eye on this subject but I did not in any way, shape or form try to suggest that it was just the Catholics who were keeping people in the "dark ages".

When you said "Ireland", I assumed you were talking solely about the republic and republicans. I also took your views on other subjects into account and came to the wrong conclusion so apologies.

I don't understand why you are so desperate to find out why he didn't wear one. You can't say in one sentence that nobody has to wear one then say that some people should explain their reasons in the next.

I think that it's all about what the poppy is supposed to symbolise and how that's changed. When I was young it was really all about remembering those who died in the great war and that was it. Now it has evolved to mean remembering all British troops who have died in all wars. The broader the subject the more people are bound to disagree with one aspect...hence the refusal. Nobody would refuse to wear one if it only had it's original meaning.

As for the player, it's obvious why he doesn't and I sort of explained it in my last post. Another reason could be that there are a lot of nutters over there. You know what happens to people that the armed gangs take a disliking to and maybe he's refused on safety grounds.

I agree that nobody should be forced to wear one or made to feel guilty, especially on the football pitch were you are in the spotlight. It's a real issue in the place where McCLean is from and it's almost as if he's been forced into a corner.

Personally, I would have no problem wearing one but Steakbake has made an excellent point in a previous post. Since the Health and Safety brigade took the pins away I physically cant wear one. I dont have a button-hole...who does? I think this is a real reason why we are seeing less and less of them, I don't think it's anything to do with people forgetting, objecting or become less patriotic.